The NPR Politics Podcast - Who Should Decide What's Taught In Schools?

Episode Date: June 6, 2023

Schools remain a fixation of conservative political messaging. A new NPR-Ipsos poll asked teachers, parents of school-age children and the general public who should be responsible for setting curricula, what to make of book bans and how they view race and gender-focused lessons.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, education correspondent Cory Turner, and senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Rob in Santa Cruz, California. I just finished my 30th year teaching high school English. This podcast was recorded at 1.07pm on Tuesday, June 6th. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I'll still not be grading essays for the summer. Okay, here's the show. My dad was a high school English teacher, among other things, and the summers off were great. I don't know how old you're supposed to sound after teaching 30 years, but he didn't sound old enough to have taught 30 years. That's awesome. He started as a baby. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And Corey Turner of NPR's education team is here as well. Hey, Corey. Hello, you two. And we are talking about Americans' views on education today. We have all seen the headlines about book bans, school board shout fests, and new laws to limit how teachers can talk about gender identity and racism. America is deeply divided, and these fissures are ripping through classrooms. Teachers are really in the middle of it all. But are parents and teachers and the public feeling as divided and as polarized as the headlines make it seem. That is what we are

here to figure out. NPR has new polling from Ipsos and some answers. Domenico, you're a former teacher, so you get this better than most. And I'm just hoping that you can help set up this political moment for us. Well, certainly education has been a thing that has suddenly become a flashpoint in American politics. You know, it sort of started during the COVID pandemic with a lot of parents who didn't want to have to really be teaching at home anymore with their kids at home. We've all been there. And Republicans really were able to use that and have sort of stuck with education as a

thing that they're going after, sort of whether it's targeting books, whether it's targeting how gender identity or racism are taught about in schools. And it's fascinating because education was a thing that was not at all really that polarizing, you know, a decade ago. I remember having a conversation with the former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell way back when, who said the one thing he could agree with then President Obama on was education. And we're not there at this point anymore. So, Corey, you went out into the field. Well, you didn't personally, but NPR did. I went out to my desk. And you have these polls. What was the goal? Tell us about the polling that you have.

Yeah, I mean, the landscape you just set up really justifies our thinking around these polls. We were really eager to hear not only what teachers are thinking right now, whether they're feeling embattled, whether they're getting these messages. We also wanted to know what the general public is thinking about these education issues and also what K-12 public school parents are thinking about. So why don't we start with teachers, if that's good with you. Yeah, let's do that. For their part, what we heard from teachers was a pretty clear sense that they feel like they should still be running things and be primarily responsible for decisions

about what is taught in the classroom. About 60% of teachers felt that way. Just 15% think they should defer to school boards. Even fewer, 10% said parents should be primarily responsible for what gets taught in schools. But what really came out in interviews with teachers and in the poll of teachers is veteran teachers, especially who have been around, as Domenico said, for several of these sort of cycles around education. Veteran teachers feel real loss of trust and responsibility since they first began teaching. I'm going to play some tape of Leanne Bennett. She's a middle school teacher in Oregon, remembering how things used to be for teachers.

They just had a lot more decision making power. I believe that they were treated more as professionals, recognized as experts in their fields. And nowadays it feels like we are treated as though we're glorified babysitters. And some part of that is no doubt that there's national curriculum standards or, you know, that that there is a little bit less license in the classroom. Yeah. I mean, you know, Domenico joked about Bob McDonald agreeing with President Obama. You know, part of that is because President Obama himself, even though he was a Democrat, got into a lot of conflict with teachers around holding teachers accountable for what gets taught. And so what I heard from teachers, including Leanne Bennett, is that really going all the way back to No Child Left Behind from 2002, a sort of signature achievement of President George W. Bush, which used federal standardized testing to try to improve reading and math scores among the nation's K-12 students. Is this sort of eroding sense from teachers

that they had control of their classrooms? I just want to share one more number here as far as teachers are concerned. We asked them about this long view, like over the last 10 years, 73% of teachers told us the public's perception of them has gotten worse over the past 10 years.

And two-thirds of them said their work conditions have gotten worse. So past 10 years. And two-thirds of them said their work conditions have gotten worse. So now let's turn to parents. What do they have to say about all this? Do they trust teachers? And specifically, do they trust their children's teachers? And are the answers different? Yeah, you're going to hate me for saying this. It is complicated. Most parents and the public, 90%, told us they believe teaching is a worthwhile profession that deserves respect. Okay, that's broad. So let's zero in. Three quarters of parents and the public told us they agree that teachers are professionals who

should be trusted to make decisions about classroom curriculum. That's not bad. Where it gets complicated is we also ask parents, are they worried about things their children are learning in school or may learn in school? And while there wasn't a lot of concern from Democrats, 65% of Republicans, parents, and 46% of independent parents say they are worried about what their child is being taught or may be taught. So you've got this weird tension between folks largely saying, yeah, we trust teachers, but there's this like undertow of anxiety. And I think the fact that that worry is pretty exclusive to conservative parents suggests that these culture war fights you mentioned earlier of the last few years are really starting to get people's attention.

Here's Mallory Newell. She's a vice president at Ipsos. I think we're seeing the effect of partisan cues from political leaders that have sent signals for these parents to be worried about what's going on in the classroom. And it's easy to get them to doubt. I mean, so much of this is really how much conservative media and Republican politicians have been pushing these messages on education or their view that, quote unquote, parents should be more involved in the classroom. And that's often coded language for, you know, getting rid of certain types of books that they don't like or changing

the curriculum in a school. And we've seen really hotly contested school board meetings, almost to the point of violence, violence in some places sometimes, you know, where they're really trying to change the dynamic. And oftentimes it is a very vocal minority that's going after the people who are running these school districts. All right. Well, we are going to take a quick break. And when we get back, more on these culture war issues and what it means for teachers and families. A lot of work went into the episode you're listening to right now. Work from our journalists in front of the microphone, and also from people whose voices you don't always hear. Yeah, so producing is kind of like the IKEA instruction manual. We assemble all of the pieces.

Hear what it takes to produce the NPR Politics podcast. That's in our recent bonus episode, out now for NPR Politics Plus listeners. If that's you, thanks so much for your support. And if it's not, it could be. Learn more at the link in our episode notes. And we're back. And Corey, as we talk about debates about what is taught in the classroom, is there any sort of consensus about who should be deciding what's taught? No, there isn't. When you look at the public and parents, it's really split. 30% say teachers should be primarily responsible. About 27% say it should be parents. About 26% say it should be school boards. Take your pick. All right. What about politicians?

They've been playing in this arena. Yeah, I should say the clearest thing here is that the one thing people agree on is they do not want politicians and bureaucrats involving themselves in classrooms. There is very little support, especially at the state level, which is kind of funny considering all of the restrictions we've seen coming out of states like Florida that are coming from the state level. In our poll, Republicans, Democrats, independents all agree they do not want state lawmakers meddling in classrooms. have been the target of politicians and state legislatures of late, including limiting how racism, segregation and slavery are taught in schools. So did you get a sense of how parents feel about these issues being taught in school? Yeah, I will try to not bury you with numbers here. But thank you. Basically, when it comes to teacher restrictions, we asked folks about two

different kinds of restrictions, right? We started big at the state level. Do you support state lawmakers passing laws that restrict teachers? And there wasn't a lot of support for that. Just 38% of Republicans were on board. Democrats and independents were overwhelmingly opposed. Now, support for teacher restrictions ticks up a little bit when you go smaller, when you have the local school boards doing it. There, nearly half of Republicans, it's about 48 percent, support those kinds of teacher restrictions. But still not a lot of support among Democrats, still relatively little support among independents. So, Domenico, here's the political question in all of this. If only 48 percent of Republicans support these sort of restrictions, then how is this good politics or why is this such a topic of political discussion if like majorities actually, even among Republicans, don't really want this. Yeah, I mean, as I was listening to those numbers, it does strike me that there's a potential vulnerability for some of the Republican candidates who are really kind of trying to

outright wing each other on the campaign trail. Now, there's a huge difference in some respects between the kinds of Republicans who vote in primaries and the Republicans more writ large or Republican-leaning independents who end up voting in a general election. But the thing is whether or not these Republican candidates are going to be able to make any kind of pivot in a general election is going to be really, really difficult because this has just been what their muscle memory has been. And they have been very good at making the argument to some parents to bring them on board know, they're going to still continue to do that. And as that messaging is put in front of people, sometimes they do start to change their opinion

as they put the partisan identification t-shirt on, so to speak. But it is potentially a bit of a vulnerability for many of these candidates, and they're going to have to tread lightly as they have to with so many other of these culture war issues that they continue to bring up. Okay, let's talk about book bans now, because it has been a major headline even in the last week or so. And it seems like it's relatively easy to get a book banned from a library or from a school. And yet, is it a popular thing to have happen? I mean, this is so, so interesting, Tam. From what I've seen in interacting with the news and watching this on the sort of micro level is I see a lot of school district leaders fielding complaints from really one or two parents and trying to take the path

of least resistance by simply removing the book. And that does raise a larger question about what are support levels out there for book bans. And our polls showed that they're sports not strong. There's actually less support for banning books than there is for restricting teachers. So for example, Republicans strongly oppose state lawmakers banning books. Again, they don't like this stuff happening at the state level. Even though when you get down to the local level with school boards, it's still just 41% of Republicans supporting it. And that leaves 46% of Republicans who say they oppose it. And then you've got a mushy middle, but still, you've got more Republicans opposing than supporting book bans at the local level. I do want to say, I interviewed a bunch of Republicans following this poll who had responded to it because I wanted

to get closer to some sort of ground truth here. I want to play you a bit from one of the folks I spoke with. His name is Mike Kerr. He's a public school dad and a Republican in Colorado. I mean, I remember Native Son, for example, probably a book that's probably no longer allowed in schools, but it really opened my eyes coming from where I grew up in a farming community to a city with other races and other cultures. If I'd have never read that book, I'd have had no bearing on like, well, there's other people in this world or everything. I heard from several Republicans who maybe they did feel a little uncomfortable about changing norms around gender identity. They're confused or just feel like time has sped up on them,

or maybe they're uncomfortable with how kids may or may not be taught about racism in America. But they said when it comes to banning books, they didn't feel like that was terribly American. Not to mention that it's a little quixotic in 2023 when the internet makes it so much easier to find so much worse than a child could possibly find in a school library. I was going to say, it's kind of quaint to be talking about books in print, right? I mean, even people who read books, a lot of them are reading them on Kindles or listening to Audible and getting things in different ways digitally. So the fact that we're talking about this is so

interesting. But I really do feel like this is a lot of parents, especially conservative parents, who are trying to hold on to what they see as something that's slipping out of their grips of their way of life. And that is a thing that has been pushed repeatedly over and over again and has been infused in our politics by conservative media and many Republican politicians who've been able to use that as fuel to their political campaigns. All right. Well, we have to leave it there for today. Corey Turner, thank you so much. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.