The NPR Politics Podcast - With Graham's death, the Senate loses a key Trump whisperer

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Longtime South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham died suddenly over the weekend at age 71. We discuss how Graham helped President Trump reshape the federal judiciary and achieve priorities such as the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, while also serving as one of the last remaining Republican defense hawks.This episode: voting correspondent Miles Parks, congressional reporter Eric McDaniel, and White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez.This podcast was produced by Casey Morell and Bria Suggs, and edited by Rachel Baye.Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

The Senate returns this week without one of its most singular and prominent members. Republican Lindsey Graham of South Carolina died suddenly over the weekend. He was 71 years old. Today, we'll unpack is complicated and honestly sometimes contradictory political legacy. Let's get into it. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting. I'm Eric McDaniel. I cover Congress. And I'm Frank O'Donias. I cover the White House. And we are recording this podcast at 103 p.m. Eastern Time on Monday.

July 13th. So Eric, Lindsey Graham spent more than 30 years representing South Carolina, including more than 20 of those years in the U.S. Senate. What do you think he'll be remembered for as a lawmaker? I mean, he's a Washington institution. The man has touched really all sorts of different things, particularly during Trump's two terms in the White House. I'll start with his foreign policy legacy, which is probably where he felt like he made his largest mark. He was in unabashed military interventionist. He believed in the power of the U.S. military to be a force for good, peacekeeper and protector of democracy abroad. And, you know, I'd say his legacy is as complicated and tied up in that as the U.S. military record abroad. Well, I want to take a second also to note

that his life before Congress was really interesting, too, right? He had a pretty unique upbringing that I feel like did color the way he talked about issues. And honestly, though, just, his entire life in Congress. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, this is something we heard a lot when he was running for the GOP presidential nomination in 2016. He grew up in a town called Central South Carolina, not Central South Carolina, but the town of Central. And he grew up in a one-room apartment adjoining his parents' liquor store bar and pool house where people would play billiards with his parents and sister. When he was in his early 20s, his parents. His parents, died in quick succession, and he became the primary caretaker for his younger sister, Darlene,

when she was 13 years old. He eventually went on to adopt her. After he graduated law school at the University of South Carolina, he joined the Air Force, where he was an Air Force attorney. He spent six years in active duty, including some of that abroad in Germany. And then he joined the South Carolina Air National Guard. And then during his time in Congress, the Air Force Reserve. So he spent more than 30 years in uniform, all told. Yeah, I know at some point he said that raising his sister and kind of what she had become was one of the most meaningful things in his life. I want to talk a little bit, Franco, about Lindsey Graham's relationship with Trump because like every Republican over the last

10 years, a lot of his career has been defined by that relationship. He ran against Trump in the presidential primary in 2016 and then became something of a sort of Trump whisperer with Congress. Can you just explain this evolution? Yeah, evolution, transformation. Definitely, you know, the legacy is absolutely tied to Trump. I mean, Graham started off as a critic. They really went after each other during the 2016 campaign. Graham ran for office as well. I even remember when Trump announced Graham's telephone number during a stumped speech, and then Graham, you know, actually turned it into a campaign ad. It was a, a very vicious campaign, and the Graham Trump, you know, back and forth was something to be watched as well.

But when Trump was elected, Graham quickly kind of jumped on board. And when he was asked about that transformation, Graham told reporters that, you know, he was trying to remain relevant. And that being inside the White House orbit gave him more leverage. You know, you got to be in the room. I'd say that relationship was really, really tested, though, after the first administration or at the end of the first administration after the riots of January 6th, and Graham gave that, you know, infamous speech from the floor of the Senate. Trump and I, we've had a hell of a journey. I hate it then this way. Oh, my God, I hate it. For my point of view, he's been a consequential president. But today, all I can say is count me out. Enough is enough is enough.

You know, that speech was seen by many as kind of like the moment that not only Graham was breaking from Trump, but the entire Republican Party was breaking from Trump. But again, Trump did not go away. He again started to get influence again, and Graham came back on board, you know, wanting to stay in the room. You know, Trump this morning was speaking about it on Fox News and he called it a bad moment for Graham, but said Graham apologized and continued to remain loyal. I mean, I'd argue that in many ways Graham's transformation from critic to supporter to critic to ally again is pretty much emblematic of how the Republican Party has evolved under Trump. You know, those who publicly broke with Trump are no longer in the room. And Graham, you know, he maintained his influence.

And if I can just put a fine point on that, Miles, that was a moment on January 6th when Graham was saying, we should certify the election. President-elect Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris have won a free and fair election, and essentially that Trump was trying to remain in power despite losing. And quickly after that, Graham turned around and helped to support Trump's election fraud narrative, including publicly lobbying his colleagues to acquit Trump on the impeachment charges that stemmed from January 6th. It's fascinating holding both those, because I rewatch this entire speech this morning. And within the back of my brain, remembering also that a couple weeks before he gives the speech, he calls the Secretary of State of Georgia, Brad Raffensberger, and brings up all these questions about election conspiracy theories involving votes in Georgia. And the Secretary of State there, who is a Republican, Raffensberger, said he felt essentially pressured by Lindsey Graham to potentially throw away legal votes. That's what Raffinsberger told the Washington Post at the time. So you've got at the same time Graham saying how important it is to accept the results here while also doing all of these things as you're mentioning. And then,

he essentially throughout the entirety of Trump's two terms has also worked really hard to shepherd his priorities, right? It's not like he's been in the background. He has helped move a lot of these things forward. Yeah, that's right. So during his first term, in particular, Graham spent some time as chair of the Judiciary Committee. And in that capacity, he was able to shepherd scores of Trump's federal judges through the confirmation process and onto the federal bench. That includes his role, both as chair and as a member of the Judiciary Committee, in getting three Supreme Court justices confirmed to the High Court, Amy Coney Barrett, Brett Kavanaugh and Neil Gorsuch. And I remember how incensed he felt in particular about feeling that Brett Kavanaugh was being mistreated after he had been accused by a woman named Christine Blasey Ford of sexual misconduct and sexual assault when they were young. What you want to do is destroy this guy's life. this seat open and hope you went in 2020, you've said that, not me. You've got nothing to apologize for.

When you see Sotomayor and Kagan, tell them that Lindsay said, oh, because I voted for them. I would never do to them what you've done to this guy. This is the most unethical sham since I've been in politics. Trump brought up that moment when he was speaking to NBC's Meet the Press. on Sunday as a fond remembrance of Lindsey Graham. And then during Trump's second term, he also led the Budget Committee. I know he's made comments about how little he knew in the kind of typical Lindsey Graham fashion joked a lot about how he wasn't super familiar with numbers. Yeah, he said he wasn't a numbers guy.

But still, he was a veteran of Washington. And he was a successful go-between between Trump and Republican senators with whom Trump does not have a great relationship. And so what Graham was able to do was take this very thorny, one big, beautiful bill, essentially tax cut act and shepherd it through careful negotiations with Senate Republicans, as well, importantly, as Senate parliamentarian staff, these bureaucrats in the Senate who get to determine what is and isn't eligible to go in a bill that can pass by a simple majority through the chamber. And in doing that, he was able to successfully avoid needing to bring any Democrats on board to pass this legislation and they got it through the Senate with just Republican votes and eventually

signed into law. One policy area, though, Franco, that Graham wasn't really able to move forward in the way he seemed to want to was immigration, though, right? Yeah, that was actually a big issue that Graham has pushed for a long time across the aisle with Democrats and Republicans. And I remember very distinctly in the first administration, actually, you know, once Trump was elected, Graham actually spoke positively thinking that if anyone was going to get, you know, kind of a comprehensive immigration reform, some type of legal pathway for the millions of undocumented immigrants in the country, it would be Trump. But very quickly, Graham acknowledged and acknowledged publicly that the, kind of the winds of politics, the winds of the country had changed

and there was just not the same type of support for any type of legalization. effort. Now, he's still behind the Dream Act, you know, kind of helping the children who were brought to the country illegally by undocumented immigrants. But in terms of greater immigration package, I'd say he still supported it, but he recognized that the American public were not necessarily behind it. Yeah, it feels like, Eric, one of those legacy things that I'm going to think about in years from now when I think about Lindsey Graham is having that finger on the pulse and kind of understanding where the caucus is and always knowing which way the political winds were blowing. He seemed to want to be an influential lawmaker.

And I think he had a keen sense of when there was an opportunity to have an impact on an issue and when that issue was dead. It's something that Trump has struggled with in Congress. He's been pushing his Save America Election Security Act. He said Graham was an advocate of that. But it's clear that can't pass through the Senate. but Graham was always clear-eyed about what could and what issues he could exercise his sway on. And it was not only just on the issues. It was also the relationships in Washington.

Obviously, we're talking about his close relationship with Trump. But, you know, before he had a very close relationship with former Senator John McCain, getting those type of close relationships with McCain first and then Trump later, he knew how to kind of rub shoulders with the important people to make sure that he could get his agenda have the leverage that he wanted to in this, you know, busy city. All right. Let's take a quick break and more specifically on Graham's foreign policy legacy right after this. And we're back. So, Eric, you touched on this a little bit before. Graham was a well-known defense hawk, really one of the last Republicans to push this idea that the United States

should be involved in foreign conflicts to push the idea of democracy. How do you think his death affects U.S. policy related to the rest of the world. I would say that the Congress has lost maybe the last effective advocate in the U.S. Senate on the Republican side for essentially like military aid to Ukraine in its fight with Russia. After Graham died, Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky noted that Graham had visited Ukraine 10 times since its war with Russia began. And across his two decades in the Senate, he was known for his regular participation in Codale's congressional delegations to visit places abroad. He had just, in fact, come back last week from a trip abroad, including a visit to Ukraine when he was shoring up U.S. military alliances with European nations. And just more broadly, like, this is a vision of U.S. foreign policy that I think is basically dead. This idea that the U.S. military can effectively intervene overseas and enact its foreign policy goals.

I think that era of thinking about what the U.S. military can and can't do is basically over. Which feels like it matters, Franco right now, specifically, because, Graham was also a big supporter in the administration's efforts in Iran, which are ongoing. And losing that right now feels like it could be a big deal. Oh, yeah. I mean, Graham was one of the biggest hawks in the Republican Party, strong support for Israel, tougher policies on Iran. As Eric was just talking about, continued military aid for Ukraine, stronger sanctions against Russia. He actually announced late last week on Friday during that trip that Eric's talking about that he had reached an agreement with the White House on a Russia sanctions package. So that'll be very interesting to see kind of what goes forward. on that. I think one of the big changes is that, you know, Graham's greatest influence, especially as it related to the White House, was, you know, kind of behind the scenes. I mean, Trump is kind of known to have this group of advisors that, you know, he bounces ideas off of. And Graham was one of those key people. They played golf together. Graham was apparently very good, which was something kind of

Trump respected. They talked on the phone a lot. Trump actually told NBC on Sunday that he spoke to Graham Saturday night, just hours before Graham died, you know, saying that he seemed tired after the return from Ukraine, but otherwise fine and called Graham like a member of the family. I mean, he had such influence. I think he had more influence than most people realize. And you could actually kind of predict what Trump would be doing based on what Graham was lobbying for. Literally, Trump would sometimes send Graham out to make a public campaign. And I spoke with officials and former officials who would tell me they would watch Graham to see what kind of comments he would make on things like Iran to try to get an idea to see where Trump's head was at.

Although I am interested to see what this means for Republican criticism of any forthcoming or hypothetical future deal with Iran because when the preliminary MOU memorandum of understanding was announced with Iran. Graham seemed to indicate that it was too lenient on Iran, that it didn't really accomplish any of the president's goals. And he was quick to say, I'll be watching carefully what Vice President Vance can do at the negotiating table, laying some criticism at Vance's speed rather than the presidents himself. Yeah, that's right. Graham was influential not only in these recent conflicts we're talking about, but he had also, you know, been important when we think about 10 or 15 years ago in the conflicts during the Obama years and things like that, right? Yeah, he was influential in the George W. Bush era supporting the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan. And yes, on Obama, he definitely was working with Obama. We were talking about immigration before. That was certainly an issue that Graham was working with the Obama administration on.

He was one of the most vocal Republican supporters of bipartisan immigration negotiations at that time, really earning kind of praise from some Democrats for being pragmatic, but also taking on a lot of criticism from Republicans for kind of joining forces with Obama in a way. I am wondering, Eric, where this goes from here within the Republican Party. Is there anyone left will kind of step into this vacuum of being a person who will push this level of interventionism? I think particularly with former Senate Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on his way out the door, he's retiring this term, it's unlikely that we see anyone take up this mantle. But I actually think, you know, what this means for the Senate is broader than just foreign policy. It's also one fewer reliable go between President Trump and the Senate Republican Conference with whom he has continued to feud over their inability to pass his. election integrity legislation, the Save America Act that would require 60 votes to get through the Senate. There are only 53 Republicans. Democrats don't support the bill. Current Senate Republican Majority Leader John Thune says the Senate is bound by arithmetic. Fifty three is fewer than

60. They can't pass this legislation. Trump has continued to throw wrenches in the gears of the Senate Republican agenda in order to kind of protest that math problem. And now there's one fewer person, a really key person who can help mend those divides and enable things like funding the government ahead of the midterm elections. Thinking about the process in terms of filling this seat, I will note that later today, South Carolina's governor Henry McMaster is expected to announce who he's going to appoint to this seat. But can you walk us through the specifics of how that will work and then who is going to be in the seat long term?

Whoever South Carolina Governor McMaster appoints today is expected to serve through January. They'll be in that seat until the new Congress begins in the new year. But Graham was also up for re-election this year. He had won his Republican Senate primary race. They will now hold a new Republican Senate primary election in the state in mid-August. Whoever wins that primary election will go on to face Democratic nominee Annie Andrews in a general election in November and then the winner of that race will be sworn in with the new Congress in January. All right, well, we can leave it there for today. Like I said, we will be watching closely to see who the governor of South Carolina selects. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting. I'm Eric McDaniel. I cover Congress. And I'm Franco Ordonez. I cover the White House. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.