The Opinions - I’m a Transgender Colonel. Trump Wants Me Out.

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Time is running out for transgender service members in the U.S. military. The Trump administration has put in motion plans to identify and remove transgender troops, with Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth saying they are unfit to serve.In this episode with the Opinion editor Sarah Wildman, Col. Bree Fram, one of the highest-ranking transgender members of the military, speaks about her journey and her uncertain future.Note: The views presented are Colonel Fram’s and do not reflect the official guidance or position of the U.S. government or the Department of Defense.Thoughts? Email us at [e-mail] can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Opinions” at nytimes.com/column/the-opinions.This episode of “The Opinions” was produced by Derek Arthur. Edited by Kaari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Pat McCusker. Original music by Sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker and Carole Sabouraud. The show’s production team also includes Vishakha Darbha and Jillian Weinberger. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The Director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is The Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it. I'm Sarah Wildman. I'm an editor and writer at New York Times Opinion. Donald Trump spent part of his campaign for the presidency going after the rights of transgender people. Since taking office, he's doubled down on his promise. As of today, it will henceforth be the official policy of the United States government that there are only two genders, male and female. The words transgender and queer

have been scrubbed from the website along with the letters T and Q from LGBTQ. And our country will be woke no longer. Early on in his second administration, he reinstated a ban on transgender service members. And late last month, the Department of Defense released a memo. It orders branches of the military.

to start identifying the thousands of troops diagnosed or being treated for gender dysphoria within 30 days for removal from military service. A lawsuit was quickly filed after the first executive order was signed, but the timeline is moving quickly. Individual troops and service groups will soon be affected. Today I'm joined with Colonel Briefram of the U.S. Space Force,

one of the highest-ranking transgender service members in the military. The views presented here. are hers and do not reflect the official guidance or position of the U.S. government or the Department of Defense. Bree, I'm so glad to meet you. It's a pleasure to join you, Sarah. Thanks for having me. In early February, you wrote a really powerful essay for us, pointing out that trans service members who are allowed to live and serve as themselves are stronger for their honesty. You argued it makes for better leaders. Since then, that memo from the Department of Defense came out. How are you doing?

I have had to recalibrate the way I answer that question because when people stop me, how are you? You know, the normal human response is, I'm fine, and we move on with our day. Now I have to think, do I say that? No. I have to say something like, that's a really complicated question, or I am far from okay right now, because there is so much going on in the world where I have to justify my existence. and there's so much vitriol out there about transgender lives, but through all of that, I still have a job to do.

I have to show up and accomplish the mission that I've been given and try and work through all of this, not just for myself, my family, but to try and help thousands of other transgender service members navigate this incredibly complex and trying time that we're living in. It's a lot to hold. And I just want to get a beat for our listeners. if they're coming to your story fresh. When did you join the service? I joined the service more than 22 years ago. I graduated in 2001 and was looking for jobs with NASA or with a defense

contractor as an astronautical engineer because space has always been my passion when we were attacked in September 2001. And that was one of the moments where my life changed in a heartbeat. I wanted to give back. I wanted to be part of something larger than myself. I wanted to defend the opportunities and the freedoms that men like both my grandfathers fought for and so many generations of Americans before them. This actually isn't the first time that trans service members have faced a ban on their role. There was a decades-long ban on transgender people that was lifted in June 2016, which was, at the same time, a moment of increased visibility for trans people in American culture.

Where were you in your life when that happened? So on that day in 2016, when the first ban ended, I was a major serving at the Pentagon, and I figured out that the Secretary of Defense was going to make a speech, and I thought about going down to be a fly on the wall in the briefing room. But I stayed at my desk, and I watched him speak on closed circuit TV. Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for being here. I'm here today to announce some changes in the Defense Department's policies regarding news. transgender service members. I'm announcing today that we're ending the ban

on transgender Americans in the United States military. I had known that something like this was coming, and it was finally going to be an opportunity to be who I was and share some of that with the world. Effective immediately, transgender Americans may serve openly, and they can no longer be discharged or otherwise separated from the military

just for being transgender. I had an email ready to go to my colleagues, and I had a Facebook post ready to go to come out to the world. But when he made the announcement, I hesitated because I didn't know how the world was going to change for me. And I took a moment, but eventually I got the courage to hit post, to hit send, and then I ran away. I found the gym buried underneath the Pentagon.

I hopped on the elliptical machine, and I went nowhere faster than I had ever gone anywhere in my life, with all the nervous energy that I had, again, wondering, how is my life different now? But I got back to my desk. I sat down, and the most amazing thing happened. One by one, my colleagues walked over to me, shook my hand, and said, it's an honor to serve with you. And I was floored, because the honor was all mine to serve with them. It was truly an amazing moment of the camaraderie that is built within the military, and how being your authentic self

can enhance unit cohesion. And though some people faced much different coming out stories, by and large, that's the reception that transgender troops have received in the military because we've worked with the people around us for a long time. They know we have their backs. And it is being ourselves

that makes, again, for those better bonds of teamwork, not hiding who we are. Because if we're hiding who we are, that means we're spending a portion of our mental energy, protecting our identity, when instead, that could all be spent on either the mission or the relationships with the people around us. Not long after that, of course, Trump reinstated the ban. Where did that leave you? In 2017, when he initially tweeted, it actually took a while nearly 18 months before

the Supreme Court allowed the government to put the policy in place due to all the legal challenges. But when it finally settled into place in April of 2019, there was a clause in the policy that allowed approximately 1,600 of us at the time that had come out, received a military diagnosis, and began a transition process to continue serving. So we became an endangered species at the time where no one knew could come out, no one knew could get in. What's different this time around is that it's that ban again, but it's also. a purge. There are thousands more transgender service members out there than there were a decade ago. And this policy not only says no one new can come in, no one can come out as trans, but all of you who are currently serving are no longer compatible with military service and are going to be administratively discharged. The government's position is that we fail to meet the rigorous mental or physical standards demanded of military service. but they don't provide any evidence,

and we have thousands of service members who not only meet the standards, but in most cases exceed them. According to the memo, military departments have 30 days to identify service members diagnosed with or having symptoms of gender dysphoria, and 30 days after that to begin what they say

are, quote, separation actions. You've already mentioned you are still working. What do you plan to do? It is hard to figure out what exactly a timeline looks like for any individual service member. And we have the court cases going on. There may be an injunction that delays some of this policy. But up until those proceedings begin or I am processed out for separation, my mission, my job is to support the mission of the United States Space Force. And until I am dragged away, I'm going to do my job to the utmost of my ability.

Have you heard support from your team? The support I have received is immeasurable, whether that's notes, emails, messages, or people just walking up to me in the hallways of the Pentagon saying, you don't know me, but I see you. I see what you're doing. I support you. Your newspaper ran a fantastic headline back in 2019

that said, transgender troops face hostile government welcoming military. I still believe. that is the case, because we have had that opportunity to serve with hundreds of thousands of different people who see who we are. They see our commitment to the mission. They see our character. And they know we are better off serving together and embracing all of us as we look to accomplish the tasks we've been given. I'm curious, also, Brie, on the personal front, you are married, you have children. I can only imagine that this is really frightening for home.

It is incredibly difficult. My wife certainly worries about where our future is going to be, what's next for us, how do we make sure that our family is safe in the past. I've received death threats. I have received all sorts of online hatred that truly is frightening. But even more than that, the conversations that are the most difficult are with my kids around the dinner table when they're. are worrying about me and what our future is. And for a parent, that's brutal to see your kids worrying about you because it should be the other way around. I wish I could be there for them and I am trying to be as best I possibly can to reassure them to let them know that they are loved and we are going to be okay. But that's a conversation we shouldn't have to be having. In the Pentagon memo, trans service members apparently can get

a waiver to remain in the armed forces. What is that waiver? And is it a real waiver? And how can it help transgender service members who still want to serve? So it is not a waiver in the way that I read it, because not only do they put in a clause that says there must be a compelling national security reason, specialized experience, or other qualities that make you viable for retention. And I would argue that all transgender service members would meet that threshold because we are in so many cases the senior leaders or people who have had millions, if not tens of millions of dollars invested in our training to be able to accomplish the mission today and train those folks for the future. But it then goes on to say in addition to that, you have to meet three additional criteria that are impossible for

anyone who is transgendered to meet, to include having served in the standards that you originally served under, also having taken no steps medically towards transition. So unless you have a time machine to go back at least three years into the past and say, oops, just kidding, I'm not trans, there is zero way for a current service member who is out as trans or has taken any steps to transition to meet the threshold that the waiver asks you to meet. President Trump and the Department of Defense under Pete Hegseth have said that trans people aren't fit to serve because they're not living authentically. You argue it's actually the opposite, that being out as a trans person is the best

path to leadership. Oh, absolutely true. I think my ability to lead and my ability to connect with the people that I work with has grown by an order of magnitude. I learned that apparently when I was protecting my identity, I was projecting this image basically as Captain America with my shield in front of me. I was invulnerable. And we have to reframe how we think about words like vulnerability. Vulnerability isn't a weakness. Vulnerability when you are your authentic self or in any other circumstance is a way of letting others in. So when I revealed a bit of my humanity and my people saw me as human, they all of a sudden

also saw me as someone who they could bring their challenges to, bring some of their personal problems to, because they thought, oh, she's human too. She might understand. And so when I transitioned while I was in a command position, the relationship I had with my folks was very different afterwards. And as a commander, you want your people to be at their best. And if you don't know about their problems, you can't help them fix them. And we truly were a better team at accomplishing the mission we've been given. Bree, I want you to think back to your younger self. And I wonder if you could have imagined as a young person living the life you've been living, married with kids, living authentically.

I want to know what you would tell that person. It's hard to even go back and to think about when and what I would tell myself, but I am living a life I would never have imagined in so many ways, so many that are incredible. And I am so excited about being part of the space force. That didn't exist when I was younger. And when they asked me if I would join, it felt like a marriage proposal. was like, yes, yes, a thousand times yes, because this is what I believe in. This is truly magic to me of

not only helping protect and defend my country, but also advancing humanity's future in space. But I knew there was something different about myself from a very young age, from about three or four years old. I was Wonder Woman for Halloween. But it took me a long time to realize that this is who I am, and just to be able to know that it was going to be okay and that I could be myself from an earlier age would have been amazing. I've had some awful things happen in my life, truly terrible, that hurt a lot at the time and still continue to. But I also look back on those things and then I look at the amazing things that have happened in my life afterwards and can say, would that ever have happened if I hadn't gone through those terrible moments? And I don't know.

Brie, I want to ask you about those polarities, the low and the high. What, if you feel you can share with us, and you may tell me that that's too personal, but what has brought you lowest? Honestly, one of the things that brought me lowest was just a few years ago when I was diagnosed with a rare form of abdominal cancer. And I had a 10-hour surgery where I lost several organs and I had my whole abdominal cavity flushed out with chemotherapy. And I had a really difficult recovery. And there were some complications. And a couple days after, you know, I'm in my hospital bed. And I was terrified, not that I wasn't going to live. I had made it through the most dangerous part of that.

But I was terrified that I would never put the uniform on again because it meant so much to me. And all of us want to be able to take the uniform off on our own terms. And if it isn't on our terms, maybe it's because, you know, we gave everything in times of war. That's really the only option that people have for taking off the uniform when it's not their choice. And that's what I want again. That's what all transgender service members want.

We want to serve. And we want to take the uniform off when it's time for us to do so, not when someone else tells us that we're no longer worthy of it. There are surely trans people in the military currently or eyeing military service who are not yet out. What would you advise someone in the military currently not yet out, thinking about military service, knowing this ban is in place? What does it mean for them? It is an incredibly difficult position to be in. I sat down with a 16-year-old boy just a few days ago who is in junior ROTC, and it was his dream.

to carry on and carry his family's legacy and join the military at his earliest opportunity. But that option is likely not to be there for him early on. But we had the conversation and said, you know what? There is a lot of your life left. You may have that opportunity in the future. You may still be able to. And he was adamant that he would keep fighting and keep trying to get in until he was in his 30s. And for a kid who's 16, that's a huge.

huge time frame. And those are the times that I think about that we are going to be in a better place because his generation is going to make that change. They are going to demand it. They have grown up in a very different world that I and my generation did. They know trans people exist. They have multiple trans friends. They see representation of trans people doing amazing things. So to them, I say it's about resilience, it is about persistence, it is about demanding change. Because I am confident we are going to get there someday and he's going to be able to serve. Brea, want to thank you so much for bringing us both your essay and your time this morning. It's an honor to talk to you.

Well, thank you for having me. It has been my pleasure to join you. If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is produced by Derek Arthur, Sophia Alvarez Boyd, Vichaca, Fibilette, Christina Samuoski, and Jillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Alison Bruzek, and Annie Rose Strasser. Engineering, mixing, and original music by Isaac Jones, Sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabarro, and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sahota. The fact check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris.

Audience Strategy by Shannon Busta, Christina Samuelski, and Adrian Rivera. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Dresser.