The Opinions - The Israeli Hostage Who Refused to Embrace Revenge

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

Liat Beinin Atzili was held hostage by Hamas in Gaza for 54 days. When she returned to Israel, she learned her husband was murdered on Oct. 7. In this episode of “The Opinions,” the editor Sarah Wildman speaks to Beinin Atzili about her radically different experience from most other hostages and why she doesn’t believe in revenge.Thoughts? Email us at [e-mail] episode of “The Opinions” was produced by Vishakha Darbha. It was edited by Alison Bruzek and Kaari Pitkin. The rest of the show's production team includes Derek Arthur, Kristina Samulewski and Jillian Weinberger. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Pat McCusker and Carole Sabouraud. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Kristina Samulewski. The director of Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is The Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it. I'm Sarah Wildman. I'm an editor and writer for New York Times Opinion. I first met Liyadh Tzili a little bit over a year ago by email. I edited an essay she wrote about the concept of Ticuma rebirth. After the Holocaust, Liyadh is a Holocaust educator and a history teacher for teens. She's also a former hostage. She was abducted from her home in Kibbutz near O's on October 7, 2023.

She was held for 54 days. Liat returned to a changed landscape. Her home burned, her family displaced, and her husband, Aviv, murdered during the attacks. Her family's efforts to bring her home are the story of a new documentary called Holding Liot. In it, we see both the efforts to secure her release and her return. We've got some very good news to report.

Leot Benin is safe in Egypt. She's crossed the border. I talk with her mother and father. They're very appreciative and things are moving well. She'll soon be home. After I watched the film, I couldn't stop thinking about how when Liot returned Israel, she didn't turn away from Palestinians. She turned toward them, turning to her grief to find a path to peace and rejecting revenge.

Liot, thanks for joining me. Thank you. It's been more than a year since you came back, and I find grief to be this terribly strange emotion that changes every day. I can't predict it, and I wonder how you hold it today. Wow, that's a tough one to start with. I'm sorry. Well, I'll...

We can come back to that, and I can start someplace else if you want. Let's try to start with that. And I'll start sort of with, I won't dive right into that, but I'll sort of go around. I'm going to be in the States next week and the film was, it's going to be screened at Tribeca and in D.C. And I'm coming back Monday morning and Friday is Aviv's birthday. and we're having this huge birthday party for him. He worked at the agricultural machinery garage or workshop on the kibbutz, and every now and then he used to invite bands and musicians to play in the workshop.

So that's what we're doing. We invited one of his favorite bands to give a concert. on his birthday. So it's like these past weeks have been really, really emotional leading up to that. I keep thinking how happy would be that this band is coming to play in his workshop. I've been dreaming about him a lot. I've been having like these weird conversations with him when I don't know if I'm awake or asleep. And I've been feeling really close to him.

which doesn't always happen. So there's been a lot of crying. Also last week I was on vacation with, like there are two other couples that he grew up with, and that was also really emotional because he's so present, but his absence is so acute. And I think that sort of sums it up

that when a person dies, I mean, they don't disappear. They're still present, just not physically. And it's a big deal to connect to that. And like my daughter said shortly after Aviv died, that she had to figure out her relationship with him. That when a person dies, you have to, you have to, you have to reconnect in a different way and you have to redefine your relationship with them. I'm not saying this because he was my husband, but Aviv Aviv was an exceptional,

extraordinary, unbelievable human being. So it's easy to do that. And there were very few things about him that annoyed me or that I had, criticism of, and they sort of became almost non-existent. I mean, he's like this, this presence and this, and I wish he was, he was really here physically, but it's been a journey. And I was invited to speak at a ceremony for soldiers who had been killed in the war. And I was asked to speak. And one of the things that I wanted to say was that this whole process made me fall in love with him all over again. That's very beautiful. You know, before the war, before the documentary,

I want to ask you about your life before October 7th. Your family is actually Israeli-American. You can hear it in your voice. What brought your family to Israel? Ideology. My paternal grandparents, my dad's parents, they were members of Hashomerates at which is a Zionist socialist youth movement. And they actually made Aliyah in 1947. And after the 48 war broke out, they returned to the U.S. So my father grew up in a very, very Zionist home. And he and his brother and sister were also in Hashomerat Zaire.

And it was, it was, like there was no question. about coming to Israel and coming to live on Akibbutz eventually. My mother's family is a little bit different, and it was her rebellion to join Hashomerat-Zeir. My parents met in the movement, and they came to Israel together. And Aviv and I also met in the movement. So that's how my family came to Israel and why my family came to Israel, and why my family came to Israel. And you mentioned earlier your daughter, but you actually have three children. Tell me their names. Offrey, he's 24. Netta, he's 22, and Ayah is 20. She's the daughter.

I'm going to take us now to October 7th. And I won't linger here for a long time, for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I don't, I imagine that for you having to speak about this again and again is a form of trauma. In many of the interviews you've given, including in the documentary, you actually talked about how the terrorists had these strange moments of humanity, even when they breached your home. They asked you to get dressed. Tell me about the moment when they came in. What did they say to you? I was sitting on the floor, and it was all very, very quiet and not rushed and not, I mean, it's this incredibly violent act, but it wasn't, it didn't feel violent. And they said, you know, get up, you're going to come with us now, get dressed. And like,

when I didn't respond, I didn't understand, and I understood what they were saying, but I sort of didn't, it didn't register. Then one thing that one of them said was there were two of them. So one of them said, don't worry, we're not going to hurt you. We're going to protect you. We're not like you. We don't hurt women. I asked to take something from the bedroom.

They let me do that. I said that I had to look for my glasses. They helped me look for my glasses. I couldn't find them. so I ended up without glasses. And really, they didn't touch me. Everything was done in a conversation that was very relaxed. What was your emotional state?

Non-existent. I really, like, my brain was mush. There was nothing going on. Like, I remember leaving the house. The house was on fire already. So at some point they said, you know, we have to get out of here. And like looking around and like not registering what I was seeing. There's a parking lot in front of my house and like all the cars were burnt.

And the windows were shattered and I was like, what's going on here? And I was sure that I'd see other people being taken from their houses as well. But there was nobody else outside. You have talked a bit about how you were treated in Gaza, which was different from some of the other hostages. Tell us where you were taken and how you were treated. I was taken first to an apartment where a family lived, and there were women and children, and most of my communication was with them, but not only. I had a feeling that they understood what I was going through, that I was a woman alone who'd been kidnapped from her home, that I had children that I was worried about,

that I had a husband that I was worried about. So, like, they told me, you know, take a shower, change your clothes, drink something, eat. They let me watch television in English, so I had an idea of what was going on. And then, like, the next morning, the father was an old guy, brought me a toothbrush and toothpaste. I saved the toothpaste until the end. I kept saying, I'm getting out of here before this toothpaste ends.

It almost lasted the whole time, but it was a few days short. And really I told them that I didn't see well and that I wore glasses. And so they brought like a million pairs of glasses and said, try these on, try these on. Maybe they'll work. Maybe they'll help you. They asked if I wanted to be alone or if I wanted to be with them. It was really, it was very, very, in some ways, strange to be treated this way and definitely reassuring. I also kept saying to myself, okay, you know, I can, I can deal with this. I can do this.

But then the next day, that was on Saturday. On Sunday evening, I was transferred to a different place. So that was a little bit of a worry, even though the transfer was also okay. And then I arrived at a different apartment. And I met a woman from near Oz, which was such a relief that I won't be alone. I'll be with another woman. I'll be with a woman that, I didn't know her very well, but somebody that I know who she is. And there were other people in the apartment, but after a day or two, we just stayed the two of us with two men who stayed with us the whole time. I mean, we were moved around a little bit. They kept saying, you know, it's our job to keep you safe. Don't worry. As long as we're here, you'll be safe.

Were you aware of the bombing campaigns? Did you hear them, see them? Yeah, we watched television almost every day for a few minutes. And they told us also. At first they tried to hide the fact that they had cell phones, but we realized eventually that they were connected. And then we asked them, you know, all right, we saw a few minutes of TV, but tell us more about what's going on. How did you first all panic? Or did you? Well, there was nothing to panic about, really. And we did have a routine. A lot of this daily routine was waiting for things to happen.

I mean, things that we knew would happen. Like, waiting for it to be dark and to turn the light on, that was a thing. We waited for meals and then we waited, you know, to take a shower. We ate pretty well. What did you eat? During the first few days, like, we couldn't eat at all. I mean, just because we were so scared and, you know, in shock. So they were a little bit worried about that, and they asked us what we like to eat.

And then I told them, you know, I'm a vegetarian, I don't eat meat. And then they said, so what are you going to eat? How are you going to stay healthy? So I told them what I like to eat. And then one of them liked to cook. So he kept asking, what do you want me to cook for you? And almost anything that we asked for and that he could get his hands on, then he made for us macaroni and cheese.

At some point, we said that we liked sweet potatoes, so they got sweet potatoes for us. But there was one large meal a day. I mean, sometimes we didn't finish it, so we'd save food for later. It was just, you know, it's unpleasant not to be in control of when and what you you eat, but I wasn't hungry. Did they ask you about yourself? Yeah. In this daily routine, so usually we'd have like our meal and then sort of in late afternoon

like four or five, we'd have coffee or tea with them. And then we had lots of conversations. And they asked about our lives, about our families, and they told us about themselves a lot. Were they religious? Yeah, very religious. Did they ask you about religion? Yeah. And we spoke about this.

Like, I'm not religious at all. It was strange to them the concept of a person not believing in God, not being religious at all. How did you hold the fact that they were human, that they were kind to you, with the conditions of not being allowed to leave? I kept saying, you know, if you like me so much, then take me home. And they said, you know, if we could, we would, but we'll be killed if we take you home. And it was never, the thought was never finished. I mean, I didn't really understand who they thought would kill them. I mean, they for sure would have been killed.

I didn't understand if they thought that the IDF would shoot them or Hamas would murder them for letting us go. I want to take us to the release. You were held 54 days and you were released. When you first got back, what did you think about Israel's response to the war itself? I knew what was happening. It wasn't that I didn't know anything and then all of a sudden I was exposed to what was happening. And even during the time that I was in Gaza, I thought to myself, okay, Israel retaliated. to the attack on October 7th. I mean, that's okay. That's obvious.

But, all right, what now? I'm a history teacher. I know Israeli history. Israel is not prepared for long wars. I was really, really, really surprised that this war was taking so long. It seemed to me that not enough effort was made to return the hostages

and to end the war and to let the people who live in the Negev, in the area that near Ouse is in, return home. It seemed I sort of didn't understand what the end game was. What did you know about the status of your family while you were being held? I didn't know anything. What was your biggest fear? Actually, my biggest fear wasn't that all three of them were dead,

but that they'd been taken hostage as well, my sons. But I prepared myself. I had a lot of time to prepare myself. myself for, you know, worst-case scenario. And I kept telling myself, you know, if one of the kids had died, then I hope that at least Aviv was alive, because I kept saying to myself, I don't know how I'm going to deal with the death of one of my children without him. So that was huge concern. And you didn't know what had happened to him? No. When did you learn? the day after I returned.

I know that you, in the film, you held a funeral, but I actually think his body has not been returned. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. According to Jewish burial laws, then there were enough remains to be buried and to have a funeral. So we decided to do that. And I'm very, very glad that we did. I think that it gave us closure. and I think it enabled me to grieve. And I think that it also helped me to heal or to move forward from the experience of being a hostage because the focus sort of shifted. When I think of my status, then I don't think of myself as somebody who was a hostage. First of all, I'm a widow.

And to me, that's the major thing that happened to me on October 7th is that Aviv was killed. It's devastating that you come back to this news. Yeah. And you have this strange mix between the joy of knowing your children are okay because all three of them were okay. Yeah. But I've seen you talk about how you don't hold grief and anger. you went towards grief. And I wonder how you did that.

At first it was a decision, but then, you know, fake it, fake it till you make it. I knew that if I let all this anger out, and if I was in that place, then I'd fall apart. So at first, I really, I, you know, I decided. and I worked hard to not be angry. And now so many things have happened and so many things have changed that, and it's not that I'm not angry at all, but I'm not angry that this happened to me.

There's nothing I can do about that. I'm angry at things that can be different and that I can change. How do you see the way the country has received you? Do you feel you're able to meet those emotions alone, or is there a national response that you've been sort of put in the middle of as well? I think there is a national response that I'm not happy about. There are different things. I mean, I think that the way that I've been taken care of since

by official, you know, government bodies, I think that a lot has been done. done to understand what my needs are. And I have this really nice apartment, you know, a furnished apartment that the government paid for and that volunteers came here and, you know, put houseplants and pictures on the wall, food in the refrigerator. I mean, that's an amazing thing. I mean, I don't know any other country that that would have happened in. And people, I think people are so upset about what happened and how things have been dealt with since that they sort of forget and don't see that there are a lot of things that do function in Israel and that function well. But I think that connects to the question, to what we were talking about before, about how the hostages were received

in Israel. I think that society as a whole expected us to tell a certain story, to bring back a certain message and people who didn't play the role were and are criticized really harshly. And I think that to me the important thing is to be able to tell my story the way I want to tell it and not to have people be upset or furious or violent towards me because I'm not not playing to what they want to think. The narrative didn't fit what they wanted it to be. Yeah. I mean, I do have empathy towards people who were suffering. And the fact that I was wronged and that I was, that something happened to me doesn't give me the right to do that to other people.

I mean, I don't believe in revenge. And Judaism, when a person dies violently. or in war, then we say, Hashem y'omdomo, and God will take revenge in his name. I think that's a pretty good translation. And I think that what that means, I mean, my take on that is that it's not our job to take revenge on our enemies. It's God's job. I watched the webinar you did with the Parents Circle. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that group.

I mean, I can say that, you know, it's a group of Palestinians and Israelis who have lost family members to the conflict and see more commonality in that loss than difference. But not everybody would turn towards them. So I'm curious about your choice to do so and what that's been like. I mean, I felt that I needed to be able to communicate with Palestinian women. I mean, that's the experience that I've had. and that I needed to be in a place where people aren't afraid to talk about peace and hope and to share their experience and their loss and to still want a different future. So I really felt a need to be surrounded by people who relate to all these things in a similar way that I do. So that was that decision. What has it been like to share your story with Palestinians?

I think that, well, first of all, that they were also very curious how a Jewish, Israeli woman related to this experience. And I think they were very relieved, not just by the fact that I was treated well, but by the fact that I'm willing to talk about it. I think it's a story that they needed to hear, that there are people who are willing to speak about a not horrible experience. I mean, I'm not saying that it's not horrible, but it could have been so much worse.

When you speak about your experience in places like the parent circle, is it primarily focused on explaining the trauma? Or do you give a broader picture of this is what our life was like? This is how I met Aviv. This is who Aviv was. so that they see the fullness of the picture, or are you focused on the trauma? No, first of all, I don't like to focus on the trauma. These were 54 days of my life. I'm over 50.

There's so much more to my life story than those 54 days. Definitely a broader picture. and also people are curious about Aviv. I mean, I love talking about him. Was he political? Yes, but not as much as me. What do you think he would think about you talking about peace, rejecting revenge? I think he'd support that.

I mean, I keep thinking, you know, when I do meet him again, someday, somewhere. Yeah. Like what I want him to say is, you know, wow, you did great. So that's like always in my mind. You know, I wonder how or if your history as a Holocaust educator alters, how you see the conflict. You went back to teaching pretty quickly. I imagine it helped to go back to work. But in one of the final scenes in the documentary, you are actually explaining to your students about. about the wall in Warsaw. Polanim and the Germans and the Germans and Poles could see or couldn't see, what they allowed themselves to see beyond the fence. It can be very difficult to talk about the Holocaust in any context other than the Holocaust. But in the film, you talk about this fence.

And I wonder if you think studying the Holocaust has given you tools, to see beyond this fence differently and look for peace. Definitely. I actually had a very similar conversation today with a colleague. And I think that that's something that separates people, and what you're willing to see and what you're willing to acknowledge and what you're willing to know that's happening and how you relate to that. And I think that, I'll say in a not delicate way,

I think that a good person can't ignore violence, can't ignore suffering, can't ignore death, and those things, you know, we live in a world where obviously wars happen and some wars are justified to a certain extent. And I think that asking yourself to what extent is what's happening now okay or not, is it enough? What else has to be done or what can be done? And I don't know if I'm saying this very clearly. But I think that these questions have to be asked. What happened in Israel on October 7th doesn't and can't justify anything. And I think that these questions aren't discussed enough.

What do we want to happen? What are Israel's goals? How do we see the future? And I think that that's what saying, well, to me that that's what it means to, you know, look beyond the fence. to want to know what the price is. Liyat Atsili, thank you so much for joining me, and thank you for sharing Aviv with us

and letting us hold his memory too. Thank you, Sarah. If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Veshaka, Christina Samuelski, and Jillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin

and Alison Bruzick. Engineering, mixing, and original music by Isaac Jones, Sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabro, and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amon Sahota. The fact check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Audience Strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samuelski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.