The Opinions - What Man's Man Politics Is Doing to America

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

President Trump’s outsize performance of masculinity has won him attention, elections and the support of manosphere influencers like Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan. In this episode of “The Opinions,” the deputy editor of Times Opinion, Patrick Healy, speaks with its columnist Tressie McMillan Cottom about what Trump’s focus on gender means for women, minorities and American politics.Thoughts? Email us at [e-mail] can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Opinions” at nytimes.com/column/the-opinions.This episode of “The Opinions” was produced by Vishakha Darbha. It was by Kaari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. The show’s production team also includes Derek Arthur, Jillian Weinberger and Kristina Samulewski. Original music by Aman Sahota, Sonia Herrero and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is The Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it. I'm Patrick Healy, deputy editor of New York Times Opinion. And this is the first hundred days, a weekly series examining President Trump's use of power and his drive to change America. So Donald Trump spent a lot of time during the 2024 campaign really courting what's called the Manosphere. going on these podcasts with Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson and trying to talk directly to male American voters of different ages and really zeroing in on what he saw as their frustrations, their grievances.

And I've been thinking about how that strategy is playing out now during his presidency. To talk about Trump and masculinity, I'm joined by my colleague, Tressie McMillan Cottom. Tressie has spent a lot of her career, both as a writer and a sociologist, thinking about gender, race, and how they interact within American society. Thanks for joining me, Tressie.

It's always a pleasure, Patrick. So, Tressie, we are over a month since the inauguration of Donald Trump, and a lot has happened. Big question, what has really surprised you? so far? That is a great question because if you had asked me a month and a half ago, I would have said nothing so far has surprised me. So I'm actually surprised that I could still be surprised. Nothing about

Trump's success at rebranding some of the core tenets of contemporary conservatism really surprised me except for one. I underestimate. the efficacy of messages about gender in this election and in how Trump continues to use them so successfully for governance. I was surprised how well this messaging worked across what I would consider typically strange political bedfellows, Latino male voters, black male voters. It worked up and down the class divides that normally sort voters by political party in ideology.

in many ways, masculinity in Trump's performance of it and his branding of it as content, as political messaging, has worked as well, if not better than race, as a political tool. And frankly, that surprised me. It surprised me, too, because this is a guy who has divided people along racial lines for much of his career. But it actually turned out to be gender. that ad that we saw during the campaign about how Kamala Harris is for they, them, and Donald Trump is for you. Yes. That one really got me. That had such power. And I think, Trussie, I had the same experience you did when Donald

Trump came out. I speak to you this morning in an hour of anguish for a nation. And blamed that plain collision and crash in Washington, D.C. on DEI. The initiative is part of. the FAA's diversity and inclusion hiring plan, which says diversity is integral to achieving FAA's mission of ensuring safe and efficient travel. I don't think so.

I don't think so. I think it's just the opposite. At first I was like, you know, give me a break. What is he doing? This is so gross. This is so cynical. And then I step back and I thought, I actually am a little surprised that they are that clever in a way.

And this is about shrewd tactics that partly what you were getting at, that they see gender and they see masculinity even more than race and race relations as something that I think kind of resonates with a lot of voters in America, with a lot of quote-unquote kind of regular people. I mean, why do you think that is?

Why is gender and masculinity so effective in a way just as kind of a political tool or tactic for Trump? I am obsessed with this question of late. And I have a couple of things that maybe feel like answers. One of them is something that you just hit on here, which is like that DEI moment when the plane crash happened and the sort of critique of the federal aviation administration was ongoing. It's very easy and not untrue for us to say that DEI was a sort of broad, crude gesture to race and racism. But I think we forget that DEI included women. and arguably benefited disproportionately white women and that the pilot in that case, one of the people that was being dismissed, was a woman. The Army identifies Captain Rebecca Lobach from Durham as one of three soldiers inside the Black Hawk helicopter involved in a deadly mid-air collision with an American Airlines plane. I actually think that DEI in that context, while it sort of primed some like racial energies, it was really doing its most effective work as a broad, dismissal of women. And I think one of the reasons that works is because we worked really hard, especially the last like 15 years, to develop and deepen the repertoire that Americans have to

talk about race and racism. I will be honest with you. I'm not sure that we did as good a job of developing that capacity when it came to gender. And I don't want to critique feminism as like, like it's just one big group. But I think we thought we'd already won that war, maybe. We'd already done that work. And so we didn't continue to do it in these really deep ways. And one of the things that Trump did that is both like historically continuous but also new and fresh is that the GOP, the Republican Party, has actually been quite good at rebranding things politically for quite some time. So Trump in one way is like just doing that thing, right?

Using DEI to rebrand is really good at that. make America great as I think an example. But what is different is that when the right used to do that before Trump, they were sort of liberal washing these unpopular ideas, right? They were making them more palatable to the general voter by de-emphasizing how divisive these ideas were. What Trump has done, particularly with masculinity, is different. He is doubling down on these negative qualities, boorishness, cruelty.

you know, strength without empathy. Instead of rebranding that to make them more palatable for the general voter, he is rebranding boorishness as good and is doing that so successfully. That feels new and unique and something that could have only worked with gender in a way that I don't think would have worked with racism. And I think that might say something about us and how unsettled we were around these ideas as much as it says anything about how successful he is at political messaging. Yeah, I think you see it. And look, a lot of these stand-up comedians, whether it's, you know, Bill Burr. And she starts bitching going like, I don't understand. How come female athletes don't make as much as male professional athletes, right? And all of these men had to sit there and act like they didn't know what the answer was.

Or Dave Chappelle. Sounds to me, like you. hate women. I said, well, I can tell you, as the maker of this art, that I don't believe that I feel that way. And she said, well, I think, and I say, shut up, bitch. A number of men who have made, you know, their stock and trade in kind of being boorish or being crude.

It's that kind of like entertainment value that I think Trump kind of understands and taps into. It's this gender part that Trump is trying to set. and Elon Musk is trying to sell. And when they go to the UFC, and I wonder, just taking it back to your work, in a recent column you wrote about Elon as a content creator and this kind of performance of masculinity,

why do you think it's something that they see that they can get mileage out of content out of? Why is it effective for them? Oh, in two words, I'm going to say, it's the economy and it's the internet. The intersection of those two things, as it turned out, created a vacuum for masculinity. At the same time, it created more competition for the wages and the status that men use to define their masculinity. This, to me, is a crisis of like two trains, you know, barreling towards each other.

And I think Trump and Elon are particularly, skilled at manipulating those because they were produced by them, right? Elon Musk is a production of the internet economy. He understands how affect and outrage drives the algorithm, which in turn drives profit based on attention and our emotions, which we dump into these platforms. I think Donald Trump brings to this relationship that he understands the sort of like panic that can be induced when the economy has been captured by a small group of people and it can make workers vulnerable to this sort of political messaging. You put those two things together. They in many

ways embody two of these massive changes, you know. I've been reading a lot of like macroeconomic work, especially done by like feminist economist Claudia Golden, Harvard economist who won the Nobel, has done this work for all of her career. And one of the things that strikes me from Claudia's work that I think is really relevant in this moment, is that everything that made the economy a little bit more fair, a little bit more accessible for, like, racial minorities,

also made it harder along gender lines. It made it harder as women, particularly women and women of color, make these inroads into the economy as they start to make gains in education and in wages. That puts a lot of pressure on men to find some other way to be men.

Yep. Absolutely. That is happening and that's happening across like the Globalized West, which is why I think we see similar political waves happening in other countries as we have happening here. And then on the other side, the Internet comes along and says, I can give you an answer for that. I can build a community around that grudge, around that victimhood. The algorithms love binaries. And so a good binary like male, female, man, woman, good, bad. the algorithm is really set up to juice that.

And so it can create this sense that there is a place for you when the economy doesn't have a place for you. And that, as it turned out, is a very strong political message if it means it pushes some women back out of the labor market and back into the home. That benefits even men who disagree with Trump, frankly. So it creates these alignments between people who may not agree on things culture. but who have a shared economic interest. And that's the vacuum. He knows how to exploit. I found myself wondering,

why does Trump align himself so much with Elon Musk or why does he make the case to help out Andrew Tate? And part of it is selling this version of manhood to millions of men with the kind of assumption baked in that whether it's women or the government or something that, there's this kind of like war on men and that if they're not getting something, it's being taken from them. And I just find myself wondering, how has what Trump is doing normalized more extreme views around gender and masculinity? He has absolutely defamed the shame that I think used to kind

of constrain some of these more extreme views. It is not that they have ever been eradicated, But they came with a lot of social stigma and potential risk of like social status and reputation and prestige if you espouse them. So they flourished on the margins of the discourse. That's where the internet really excels. Tapping into those margins, expanding them, sort of shifting what, you know, political scientists would call sort of like the Overton window, right, keeps shifting it further and further towards more extremism. But if I say anything, even remotely critical about women, people would get really. really mad. Watch. Ladies, I love you. You're some of my favorite people.

Let's be honest. You don't invent a lot of shit. Feel that? Yeah. That's some ride home arguments in the air. What Donald Trump has been able to do, however, is to mainstream that, right? To bring it back to the center. And Elon Musk, I think one of the reasons why they were able to sort of like kiss and make up, you know, they weren't always big fans of each other. is because they both figured that out at the same time. I think they figured out the power of that masculinity narrative. They saw how much money and attention it was generating at the margins. I mean, it arguably helped make Joe Rogan, you know, an economic elite, right?

Just sort of like tapping into that energy. And the power of the presidency is that it can reset the bounds of what is acceptable and what is normal. And that is what he has done. He can reset normal. And so he has made what was extreme just three years ago, really, normal. And what almost feels like happened overnight. And I think that this is also behind the sort of the tax on government.

What are the things that this sort of strong man politics does by giving people a scapegoat, giving men a scapegoat, is that it says not only are women the enemy, are people of color and minorities the enemy. but the government is protecting them. So not only do we need to sort of like push these people out, but we need to delegitimize and gut the government that made them possible so it doesn't happen again. It is, I think, very important to point out a really effective political tool. It says that the government is the enemy not just because of what wastes your tax dollars or, you know, all that smoke.

What is really working and mobilizing people is that, oh, it's been the government that's been shielding. the people that are making me lose, right? So it's super powerful for delegitimizing the government, and that's why I think Donald Trump will continue to double down on it. Trissy, how much is Donald Trump leading on gender and masculinity? And how much is he actually following? I mean, how much is society actually already there? And I'm thinking really about the two genders, male and female executive order that he put out. And a lot of what he has been doing on trans athletes and women's sports. I mean, it very much can be argued that the majority of society wants these things

and that Trump is, in fact, kind of following as opposed to leading them toward a direction that says there are only two genders, male and female. Yeah, this is really interesting because I think the, The gender binary thing and the demonization of trans people is a great case of just how much Donald Trump is going to be able to shift our perception of normal of what is the majority. And I think that's really critical and key because one of the reasons why his powerful manipulation of content and social media and branding, I think, has been so politically corrosive is that it shifts the. the general voters' understanding of what the majority believe. So his ability to pull an audience can convince constituents that, oh, everybody thinks this way. Everybody is upset about trans people, right?

And what we kind of know from social psychology is that most of us will kind of go along with what we believe is the dominant belief system. The problem is that internet culture and our current media environment can mislead us about what the majority of people believe. It can shape our attitudes in a way that tells us that what we believe is normal by redefining what's normal. So I actually think he's doing both simultaneously. I think he is following what a minority of people care a lot about or outraged about. He is using media and especially social media to do this sort of direct appeal to the middle of the populace to say, see, this is what everybody believes, and that then people will go, oh, well, then I'm outraged too. I just find it really hard to believe that most people prior to like four years ago were that upset about trans people and bathrooms.

We had, in fact, had a decade prior to that where most people thought, oh, yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's fine. Let's put the sign as show. Even Donald Trump, though. I mean, I remember that moment where he was asked, well, how would you feel about Caitlin Jenner? you know, a trans woman using a bathroom. And Donald Trump said, you know, Caitlin Jenner can use whatever bathroom she wants.

Exactly. I remember hearing from a lot of people after that when I was a reporter saying, so where is Trump on this? Does Trump have hate in his heart for trans people, for LGBTQ people? Or is it all about that transactional Trump relationship with voters that when the largest number of voters

want a certain policy transaction from him, and it's pretty easy for him to give it to them, even if it means throwing trans people under the bus, he'll do it. He'll flip-flop on Caitlin Jenner and hand it over. Absolutely. I think it is a mistake for us to worry about the extent to which Donald Trump's, like, core beliefs,

shape his political behavior. He has been very clear that he engages in transactional politics. So on the one hand, I think that can be demoralized. right? He's just doing this because it is politically expedient. On the other hand, if we were to look for a little bit of hope, I would point to the fact that with transactions, you can then change people's incentives. And that means that that can happen. It is just that right now the tools to change them are undemocratically controlled and that control is concentrated with a very small group of people who right now, share Donald Trump's political beliefs. Yeah, I don't know, Tressy. All those tools feel like they're very much on the right right now. And, you know, there's been a lot of hand-wringing

about how the left might be able to speak to young men, to talk about masculinity, to understand it better. But what I've heard certainly during the campaign from some of our focus groups, men, women, they point to Trump back in July. when that assassination attempt happened in Pennsylvania, and the way that he stood up and he put his fist in the air, and he said, fight, fight, fight.

And a lot of voters didn't feel that was a performance of masculinity. They felt like that's a moment when your true self appears. It was a huge moment that was very inspiring to a lot of Americans. and I think there were a lot of men who looked at him who said that's the kind of man that I want to have in charge of America. So when I hear the left and Democrats talking about how we need to go on Joe Rogan and we need to go into red areas and we need to show that we're tough and confident, sometimes I wonder if that's Democrats performing a certain kind of masculinity

and that Trump kind of isn't beatable in this regard. If young men and a lot of men just see him is that, I don't know how the left gets those tools and levers, you know, back in the end. One of the things that you develop a sense for when you understand the sort of like incentives of authenticity online, is that there is no real authenticity online. There is only ever a performance of authenticity. Yet people crave it. People crave a sense that they got a glimpse of the,

real you. And the thing is Donald Trump is as embedded in that economy and that culture as I am. And I think he understood intuitively at a speed that most regular people maybe see as natural. But I just think it was a facility he had for understanding the moment. He gave the image he knew to give because he is a masterful influencer. Let me tell you something. You asked someone like Tom Cruise, who has played this sort of hyper-masculine character for all of his career, you know, any actor who is like their main, you know, character they have played, I think, of something like Harrison Ford or John Wayne character who has played this sort of like iconoclastic masculine figure in popular culture. And what they would tell you is that over time, the distance between the person and the character gets very short. And I think that if you played that character for as long as Donald Trump has played the character of Donald Trump, that yes, your instincts may be shaped by the danger of the moment, but those instincts have also been shaped by how much you feel responsible for creating that image. Now, to this question of whether or not the left can beat Donald Trump on this, I think the left trying to beat Donald Trump on this issue would be. possibly be the end of the left. And I will tell you why I don't think, not only can they not win,

they should not compete in this arena. Donald Trump's vision and version of masculinity depends on the demoralization of the role of government. It is to say that there's no other way to, oh, I don't know, provide child care for families except to send women back into the home. When, of course, we can fund daycares, right? Yeah, for other ways. And then men may not feel nearly as demasculated. But if you can erase the role of the government in making people's lives better, then sure, your only solution is the strong man trope. The left's politics rely on the fact that there is a role for government to play in making people's lives better.

If you double down on the only people who can save you are the cowboys of the internet and you try to out cowboy Donald Trump, you are just reinforcing the belief system that the government has no role here. And if you can see that, then there's no more left. No Democrat is going to out cowboy Donald Trump. That's a losing issue. At the same time, when you're explaining, you're losing. You know, Democrats who are trying to explain, well, this is the good part of, you're going to. DEI or this is the good part of the federal government. A lot of these voters and a lot of men in America, they don't want to hear explainers. They don't want to get explanations. They want action. Most Americans aren't thinking about whether this is an authentic masculinity or a performative masculinity. It's just masculinity in their mind. And it's what they ultimately want. And boy, I mean,

And when I hear Democrats and talk about it in some of the focus groups, I'm talking about, well, can we nominate a woman as the party's nominee in 2028 or when will be the next time or how do we win men back? I found myself thinking they're too deep in the playbook of strategy. You know, they're too deep in tactics that ultimately you need to find candidates, whether it's say, yes, a Barack Obama or a Bill Clinton, who have a natural way in the world that enough voters enjoy and want to wake up to every morning. And that can be a woman, that can be a man, you know, in the White House. but someone who has just more of a comfort in their own skin.

I think Donald Trump is very comfortable in his own skin being a certain kind of man. And for whatever reason, a bare majority of Americans kind of like that. Yes, they do. There is something, I think, to the act of governance, which absolutely requires detailed plans and strategy. and the communication of strength, of collectivity, of identity. And what we should be learning is that you cannot sacrifice one for the other. I think we don't like that idea because, as you point out, that takes some really hard decisions at the level of party infrastructure. Who do you support?

Who do you put forward? How do you build an infrastructure that allows for a Barack Obama to emerge, a Bill Clinton to emerge? And what kind of tradeoffs are you willing to make as a party to make that possible? And I think if the Democratic Party doubles down on just yet being the better explainers of governance to Americans than we are going into a long, dark political night. Trissy, what do you think Donald Trump wants America to look like in the end, whether it's at the end of this term, at the end of whatever Trump, era we're in? I think Trump wants for America what Trump has wanted from any of his other business dealings, which at the 10,000 foot view, is he wants them to look like Donald Trump. He wants to brand America in the way that he branded hotels, branded a fake college, right,

the way he branded a TV show. And I think what that looks like is controlling how he is remembered. So, like, I'm paying a lot of attention to how much attention he's paying to cultural institutions, archivists, and libraries, and schools, and universities, and the arts, because what I think he ultimately wants to do is to extract as much from his administration for political and economic gain as he can, and then to control the memory of what type of politician and leader he was. I think he is setting himself up to be remembered and perceived as this inevitable political figure, you know, cut from the cloth of Ronald Reagan, but fundamentally bigger than Ronald Reagan. And then he wants to make a lot of money while he does it.

I think that's right. It's going for the United States Trump. Yep. Tressy, thanks so much for joining me. It's an absolute pleasure, Patrick. Thank you. If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is produced by you. Derek Arthur, Sophia Alvarez Boyd, Vichaca, Phoebe Lett, Christina Samuelski, and Jillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Alison Bruzek, and Annie Rose Strasser.

Engineering, mixing, and original music by Isaac Jones, Sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo, and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sahota. The fact check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Audience Strategy by Shannon Busta, Christina Sanchez, Mulewski and Adrian Rivera. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Dresser.