The Origins Podcast with Lawrence Krauss - Current Events: Noam Chomsky on Afghanistan

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

Listen to our newest mini-series "Current Events with Noam Chomsky"! In this episode, Lawrence and Noam discuss a variety of issues around Afghanistan, including the withdrawal of troops, military leaders, and considering the opinions of Afghans when deciding US Military movements.   Show your support and access exclusive bonus content at https://www.patreon.com/originspodcast Get full access to Critical Mass at lawrencekrauss.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to the Origins Podcast and the Origins Project Foundation. I'm your host here, Lawrence Krause. And I want to introduce what may be a new continuing series, which is really goes back to one of our first guests and one of our most popular podcast with none other than Noam Chomsky. I asked Noam if we could periodically update our discussion by talking about current events. So here you go, current events with Noam Chomsky. of troops from Afghanistan on September 11th, 2021, that Biden's talking about,

which at least the press is saying was done against the recommendations of military leaders. What do you make of that? Well, my view infuriates most of my friends. I think before undertaking precipitous withdrawal, which take into account the opinion of Afghans, Wow. We invaded in 2001 against the strong opposition of the major Afghan resistance movement. They were bitterly opposed to the invasion.

The leading figure of Abdul Qak, later killed, most respected, sharply condemned the Bush's invasion. He said, it's going to kill plenty of Afghans. You're doing it without any concern for Afghans. You want to show your muscle, make sure everybody's afraid of you. It's going to undermine our efforts to overthrow the Taliban from within, which is what we're slowly achieving. But you just want to show your muscle. It was a brutal, murderous invasion had a devastating effect on Afghanistan.

They want to get rid of al-Qaeda, small police. these actions, probably with the cooperation of the Taliban, would have worked. The Taliban wanted to get rid of them. That would have done it. But that way you don't show your muscle and frighten everybody. Afghans turned into a wreck. It was a wreck before. Worst wreck now.

There's something that happened in the late 80s, which you're not allowed to talk about. In the late 80s, the Russians were, which was a murderous invasion. Yeah, yeah. They were sort of finally getting the act together. Late 80s, there was considerable progress. This is reported by very credible figures like the UN rapporteur for women in Afghanistan, a very distinguished international feminist figure. I was talking about how much situations improved for women.

This is the main problem that young women were facing, and Kabul was the U.S. backed Islamic terrorist fanatics who were throwing acid in their face when they wore the wrong clothes. Well, under you, a tremendous U.S. pressure, the Russians just pulled out. There was a fairly popular government, a Jibullah government, probably the most popular in the history of the country. It did manage to hold out for a couple of years under the Russians stopped any support. The U.S. was continuing to support the jihadi maniacs who were tearing the place to shreds.

And finally, it fell apart. Jihadis took over so murderous that when the Taliban came in, the population mostly welcomed it. Do we want to duplicate that experience? I think we should think a little instead of following formulas. I'm talking to the left too. We came in, smashed the place up, should never invade it in the first place. It's obvious at once. Now, are you going to allow some hope that Afghan peace forces, which do exist,

they do exist will have some role in working out something that might be less destructive than a Taliban takeover, which is what's going to happen. Well, I think that's worth thinking about. And to be clear, what you're arguing that, if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that a precipitous or symbolic withdrawal with no necessary immediate rationale except for the date, without thinking of the consequences is inappropriate. So you're saying that one should think about a more withdrawal that works in accordance with the Afghan peacekeeping forces themselves. Is that what you argue? We should take into account the opinion of Afghans.

They're not such objects. What are their opinions right now? There are Afghan peace forces. They're not strong. shouldn't exaggerate, but they exist. And they're working, trying to work out some kind of maybe local accommodations or something or other. Give them any kind of support we can.

Now, actually, this pullout is not a pullout. What it means is you get American troops out of Afghanistan, replace them with mercenaries called contractors, South African killers and so on and so forth. That's what's happening in much of the world. And keep bombing the shit out of everybody. That's withdrawal. No, you know, I should say, people who say we have to end their forever wars. What are they talking about?

First of all, we've been a war forever ever since 1783, you know, so it's not a forever war. But it means we've got to do it for our benefit because we don't want to spend any more money and time on it. We've labored to help the Afghans. It didn't work. Now we're going to get out. It's nothing to do with reality. I mean, if we should be getting out,

it's for their benefit. Not for our benefit. Absolutely. Do you, are you, you've talked about the peace Afghan forces. Do you have any optimism that, that if we if we if we if we listen to the afghan public and acted accordingly that um that that that broken country might actually resolve itself let's look back at the russians uh at the time when they were

pulling out at the time of the nijibulah government was predicted by everyone that'll just be overthrown at no time well they hung on for a couple of years years, even though they were under sharp attack by a major military force backed by the United States, and they were getting no support. Well, I suggest something. If we could get a government that's acceptable to some sector of Afghans, if it could work maybe at local accommodations, other arrangements that maybe work something out, maybe there's a possibility.

It's a long shot. It's a long shot. We can't disregard it. Well, okay, given it's a long shot. What are you, we can have a discussion later on about this. I don't know whether you want to make a prediction. What's the prediction, assuming this quote, a quote pullout happens September 11th. What do you predict for the next year or two or three?

Don't claim any expertise in this, but from all the information, it seems to be available, the Taliban will take over. the Afghan army will just collapse the way the Iraqi army did as soon as a couple of people started coming and pick up troops and aiming guns at them. They just ran away. That's the U.S. created army. I doubt that it will be any different Afghanistan. Try to create an army the way we created. It's not going to be an army.

So I presume they'll flee, collapse. hand over their guns, something or other. Pretty soon the Taliban will take over to a pretty ugly regime. You've seen it. Do you think that, well, that's the other thing I was going to ask. You don't think there's been any changes to Taliban. You think once they takeover it reverts back to what it was before?

Well, there are reports that there are changes. I don't know. I think you really have to be on the ground to know that. Yeah. You know that the so-called expert analysts have mostly been totally wrong. Yeah. Okay, well, it's that, yeah, it's certainly not an optimistic situation in any way and, and the likelihood of, the interesting thing is, I mean, you know, of course, trying to, trying to go beyond the U.S. media in any way is sometimes difficult. But, but the reason I asked you is what the Afghan people want is that I, as I never, I can't find sources, well, I'm not as, as, to be fair, I haven't worked very hard to find them, or hard enough, but I really have no idea of what the Afghan people want at this point based on anything I read.

I don't think anybody does. First of all, if you take polls, they don't mean anything. Yeah. I mean, if you take polls to a population that's terrified, what does it mean? They'll tell you what you want to hear.