The Origins Podcast with Lawrence Krauss - Ricky Gervais: Hall of Fame episode: Comedy, Philosophy, Religion and Science

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

The Origins Podcast began with a bang, a Big Bang. Over the first month of our recording, we traveled to two continents, and 4 cities and recorded 16 episodes in 22 days. It was a whirlwind, and one of the most amazing experiences I can recall. While in London, we took advantage of the amazingly gracious acceptance by Ricky Gervais to appear on the podcast. It was a day I will always remember. Ricky had appeared in our film, The Unbelievers, which followed me and Richard Dawkins around the world. Gus and Luke Holwerda, who directed and filmed that movie helped create The Origins Podcast, and for the first year, filmed all the episodes. Ricky graciously agreed to appear in front of their cameras one more time, and joined us at what was then New College of Humanities, where I was a visiting Professor. From the moment he arrived, it was clear it was going to be great. As he had been when we filmed The Unbelievers Ricky claimed to be nervous and was worried he would appear ignorant. He needn’t have worried. Maybe that is one of the reasons he is so good at what he does, because he worries about rising to the challenge. We discussed his early life, his love of science, his early interest in biology and then philosophy, then the science of comedy, the comedy of religion, and the need for free speech. He then proceeded to demand a mind-bending, personal science lesson from me. It was amazing. He was amazing. Enjoy this, our first rebroadcast of a classic Origins Podcast Episode that is worth watching once again. Enjoy. As always, an ad-free video version of this podcast is also available to paid Critical Mass subscribers. Your subscriptions support the non-profit Origins Project Foundation, which produces the podcast. The audio version is available free on the Critical Mass site and on all podcast sites, and the video version will also be available on the Origins Project YouTube. Get full access to Critical Mass at lawrencekrauss.substack.com/subscribe

Hi and welcome to the Origins Podcast. I'm your host Lawrence Krauss. Happy New Year. And to bring in the New Year right, we're rebroadcasting one of our original episodes, one of the first episodes we ever recorded in London with none other than Ricky Jervais. It was an incredibly fun and interesting episode

in which he interviewed me as much as I interviewed him and we talked not just about his own life and comedy and philosophy, but also science. I think you'll find it illuminating and it reflects perhaps a different side of Ricky Jervais that you might not have seen before. Either way, I hope you really enjoy it and I think it's a wonderful way to bring in the new year. You can watch it ad-free on our Critical Mass Substact site and all subscription fees to that site go to support the Origins Project Foundation, the nonprofit that produces this podcast,

or you can watch it on our YouTube channel or you can listen to it on any podcast-listening site. No matter how you watch it or listen to it, I hope you'll consider supporting the project and the podcast and we really appreciate your support and listening. Thanks again. And with no further ado, Ricky Jervais. Ricky, it's just great to have you here. It's been a while since you'd filmed The Unbelievers,

but I'm just so happy to be able to have a chat with you. It's been a long time. We communicate by direct message on Twitter a lot, but it's nice to have a face-of- Yeah, this is more nerve-wracking. Yeah, absolutely. It's like being back at school or college or something. Well, good, good.

I fear academics. I admire you, but I fear you. Yeah, good. Well, that's exact. Keep that. Hold that thought. It's nice, though, because it makes me feel stupid again. Because I get a false sense of security on Twitter.

I feel really smart. Oh, compared to most people. This would bring me down a peg or two. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. I mean, you may be surprised. The first question I want to ask you is, why aren't you a scientist?

Because it seems to me, I'm serious about that, it's not facetious. It seems to me you have the sensibilities of a scientist. And you started in biology, right? Yeah, I do. I've sort of got two answers. I'd like to think it was because I was lazy. That seems like a weird, right? Yeah, yeah.

But it might be that I'm not good enough. I could have done something in science, but I think a scientist, I think I feel that's an elevation. of what I was. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, no. I mean, I know. I remember I took a degree in that.

I could think of ten scientists. Yeah. And then a million people who work in science. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd be one of those. Yeah, and so you didn't want to be. Yeah, and you got that sense

when you were in college that you... No, I think I did it. One, I was good at it. I, you know, all through school, I liked... I was interest in it and I became good at. I don't know if I had natural ability or because I just... We're interested.

I was smart enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did, when I could, my A-levels were physics, chemistry and biology. Excellent. And I got into University College London, my first choice. I got all the grades I needed, amazingly. And I went to do biology. And then after two weeks, you know, there was 40 hours a week, and there were 9 o'clock lectures.

And I suddenly thought, this isn't why I came to university. I came to university to join a band and I felt that I think because I got a full grant and I was a working class kid I definitely ticked that 6% I was definitely a quote of Phil they loved me

they said you could fail we need you we need some working class oaks to make us look good and I think I probably did science at college level

vocationally I thought well if I'm getting a free grant and I'm doing this exam I better be doing it because I can get a job after all. Then I suddenly thought nah I do philosophy Yeah exactly I was because he went to philosophy

We were guaranteed not to get a job Exactly yeah Which after a few weeks I remember We were sitting around Smoking and drinking And I was stressed I think I'd made the wrong decision

and I felt that I was, I hated it. I thought, why am I, have I done this? I left school. I want to be free. And I said to, one of the guys said, name a letterly alphabet and he went P and I went, philosophy, philosophy. And I got up and I went along to the philosophy department

and I said, I want to do philosophy. And they said, sorry, who are you? I said, I'm doing sciences at the moment, but I'm bored with that. and I want to do philosophy. And I went, right. And I said, I'll see if the professor's free. And I had an interview with this guy.

And he said, well, you've missed half the course. And I said, I'm really clever. Right. Okay. And he went, okay. He said, what is art? And I can't remember my answer. Genuinely can't remember it.

I bullshit. It was probably terrible. And he went, okay. Yeah, come on. Well, that was it. It wasn't that terrible. That was it. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I won't ask what is. art. We'll stay away from that one. I still don't know. You know what if you like it, I guess. That's all right. Well, yeah.

I've heard lots of definitions of art. But philosophy is also not a light subject. Well, and I did enjoy it. I'd like to argue anyway. So I just thought that would be more tall. It gave me time to do what I was there for, which was join a band, which I did. Yes. I got signed and I thought, I'll do the degree from a mum.

Yeah. And I did it. And I got my philosophy. Okay, so your mom wanted you to do it. She didn't want to be, my mother wanted me to be a doctor, but I don't know. Of course. So I think my mom liked me doing science. And in fact, when I changed, I went home for Christmas and bless her, she'd bought me a big biology book from a jumble sale. And I went, oh, thanks. I said, oh, I've swapped to philosophy. And she went, what's that? And I said, I said, it doesn't matter. I said, I'm going to be a pop star anyway. And she went, pop star is another word for junkie. Oh, very good. Terrified. She was terrified. Oh, excellent.

Okay. So, yeah, so I did my degree. I got a deal, a record deal, which was over as quickly as such. So that was, let's forget that. But yes, now I'm back. It was my first love science. I absolutely love science. And it was actually really good for philosophy,

because I swan through logic. Yeah, exactly. I went straight through logic, critical thinking, all that sort of stuff. And then, you know, you can play with the mind-body problem and metaphysics and stuff. Well, and, you know, and it's actually, it's interesting because we're actually sitting

in a philosopher's office, by the way. I don't know if you're a biosmosis feeling it. No, no. But I was talking to him the other day. And the point is that there's, I mean, science was natural philosophy, but the idea of critical thinking, skepticism, analysis. I mean, when I think of what science is, that's large part of science. What science

also has is experimenting, which philosophy doesn't. Well, of course. It certainly uses the same, I think, thought patterns. Yeah. And, uh, but then there's a certain part of me that thinks philosophy can't do what science does and is actually give me the answer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I can observe it and I know what I want to, and I'm impatient. Yeah. No, I'm impatient. I can relate. I'm trying to get good at. I'm, I'm, I'm trying to get good at. at chess, again, something I think I should be good at, but I'm not. Yeah. Right?

You know, how can a nine-year-old beat me? And I'm reading books and chess. I'll just go, and this and that and the theory that the knight could be more useful in the end game. Oh, but except with the bishops. And I go, just give me the answer. Yeah, yeah. Tell me the answer.

Immediate gratification. With more moves than there are particles in the universe, it's difficult to someone to give you the answer. Your computer can beat you anyway, so it doesn't matter what you. I know. That annoys me. Yeah. It annoys me.

Well, it could beat the best chest paper real world. Well, of course, but I'm on level three. Yeah. Oh, okay.

And it's still, it's still so much smug about it when it takes my queen faster than its other moves. Oh. So it's sort of going, I go, okay.

I go, Jane, it's cheating again. Well, no, but it's... Yeah, so I love science, and it's fascinating

and I'm in awe of it, and it's going to save the world, obviously. Well, it does. I mean, and, you know, I've had arguments, way with philosophers because I basically said, you know, take quantum mechanics, which is impossible

to understand. Oh, good. Oh, good. But physicists can't understand it. But they, but we do it. We use it. It doesn't matter. And so I tell philosophers, you can just talk about it for a hundred years and we'll just do things. We'll build things. Yeah, I know. It works. It works. It works. It works. And that's the, if it works, it works. Yeah. And really, ultimately, that's why science is so good because it works. It's not that it's some special thing or it's not, it's more important than music or literature or art. But it works. It's putting it out there. It's putting it out there and seeing which works. Just like evolution through natural selection.

Yeah, yeah. It's a rat. It works. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't matter. It's not as if we, you know, I tell people there's in, in the States, we'll talk about this, but, you know, they're fighting this evolution, intelligent design nonsense in the States, which I've been doing for years.

And it's like they think that scientists, we have some secret handshake. Like, let's not pretend, you know, evolution is works. There's so many things annoying about that, you know, evolution deniers. Yeah. Deny something with less evidence. That would be much. Right. But it's like, yeah, there's conspiracy that science have got it for some reason. I know. And obviously it's just a theory.

Why did they use the word theory? I know, I know. It's really. You can't explain it to why. Well, I always tell people, gravity's just a theory. So just walk out the window and see if it works. Exactly. It doesn't work, though, because they're... Yeah, no, they... None of that stuff, people don't want to believe or don't want to listen.

But of all the things, right, evolution, financial... It's really easy. Yeah. It's an easy concept. It's a coin sorter. Yeah. You know, they, they're not rushing towards the hole they like. They're going down the hole they can.

You know, it's such a simple concept. Now, quantum physics, oh, it's impossible. Yeah, no, it is. I've had this to, just having this discussion with Richard Dawkins, who says, you know, I mean, who keeps saying that quantum physics is just impossible. It's not even the fact that a lot of it is theoretical and balancing an equation and then trying to find out what you know. It's the, even if you get that, which I don't,

it's the scale. Yeah. It's the scale that's impossible. When someone... Okay, the other, the end, astronomy. Yeah. When someone tells me something is a billion, trillion miles away, I go, okay, but I haven't understood it.

You can't. No one can. It's impossible. No one can. I'm like a crow. I can count five and see that, right? Maybe I can imagine a hundred. Maybe a billion trillion, what's that?

It doesn't mean anything. Even if they show me on a scale. It doesn't, because I always think that people had to, politicians had to count the money they spend, that it might know a billion might mean more. I know. It's just, you've just got to accept it. And then the other way where you can just keep getting smaller and smaller.

When I was about eight or nine, I used to lie awake at night, trying to imagine infinity. Really? I wasn't a normal kid. Yeah. That's great. You're scientists.

And I'd get there and I'd go, what about that? You get there? And I'd build a wall around it and then go, what's over the wall? I'd go, oh, okay, let's stop this. That's right. If you got to infinity, you were counting for a long time. Yeah, exactly. I just keep going and go as far as long as I can go, okay, build a rule around that,

but no, it doesn't work. It's like Woody Allen says eternity is a long time, especially near the end. Yeah, exactly. That last bit takes a long time. I know, I know. It's just, well, again, you can't. But the scale, but it's interesting you say that, because, one of the reasons

I've talked to Richard about this I think we actually talk to the unbelievers about it that one of the reasons people the concept of evolution is easy I agree with you it's just you know a coin toss but what people don't buy

is the scale the fact that you know they can't they can do 100 years maybe a thousand years but the idea of a billion years and the fact that things change so imperceptibly that's the thing people don't buy it's like looking at one frame of a film and going

whether he's not even running when there he is is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You've just looked at 24th of a second, but he is running. And that's why it's, yeah, but I think that's why it's not intuitive. And it's, well, I think, I think the, even people that find it hard to understand, was it, was it Richard's model that if you look at a picture of your granddad,

he looks a bit like you did it, and then eventually he's a fish. Yeah, yeah. And no point, there's no point where, where the child of a, of a fish is not a fish. No. And that's the, you know, everyone thinks suddenly that, you know, you're going to have a child and it's a different species and it just doesn't work that way. No, exactly. It's all gradual.

But then there's levels of stupid because I get tweets. I've been watching the chimps in a zoo for four years now. And not one of them. Really? Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember testifying in Texas. I've been some of women, so I'm my, you know, my ancestor, you know, my ancestors isn't a monkey.

And I felt like saying, well, if anyone's ancestors a monkey, I think, you know. Yeah. I know. And also that, that, uh, trying to explain that we're not more evolved than anything we're yeah yeah and and that we're not and the notion that

that evolution has a direction that it's always better that we're more yeah that we're better than cockroaches well you know if there's an equal war the cockroaches they'll still be around and we're and we won't be they obviously they mean more intelligent yeah uh uh uh and and we yeah and intelligence and that's just a useful tool to survive to pass on your genetic that's all it is yeah it is but it may in the long run it may be a

as an evolutionary imperative, it may be pretty bad in the end. Well, I sometimes fear this a disadvantage. Yeah. On Twitter. Yeah, that's right. But the other one is, again, I used to be quite militant

and I used to ridicule people when they said, if we evolve from chimps, then why are they still chimps? Now I answer it like it's an intelligent question. I say we didn't evolve from modern apes. We evolved with them rather like cousins. And it doesn't do any good.

But it makes me feel better because I wasn't being nasty, I think. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, no, no. Because some people do it genuinely and they think they don't get it. Yeah. They don't get it. And that's fine.

Well, I think it takes all types. I've talked to, too. I mean, sometimes you have to sort of jar people in order to get them to think about things. But I think you're absolutely right. Talking people with respect, at least, is... Yeah. Because, you know, it's not so much stupidity often. It's just ignorance.

And that's a big difference. It's people just have never been different. Yeah, because we could say that intelligence and education is a bit of luck that we got there. So, but yeah, people, some people don't want to know the truth because it doesn't fit with air. Well, that's one of the, my big problems with much of organized religion or some of work, I have a lot of different problems with it. But one is this notion that you don't want your kids to know how the world really works for fear that they'll lose their faith. You don't want to teach them. We don't want them to learn anything because.

they might change your faith. But then there's another level of why as well, because they think that losing the faith is, is equated with badness. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and, you know, and some people genuinely believe that you won't go to heaven if you don't believe.

So they're actually, they think they're doing a good thing. I'm saving my child from hell. Yeah. Well, I mean, all, I think when people do, most of the times when people do bad things, they're actually thinking they're doing a good thing. They have a rationalization for it. I mean, the extreme is the parents who don't let their kids get blood transfusions for religious.

I mean, they're not trying to kill their kids. No. They think they're doing the right thing. And that's the problem, you know. I mean, that's one of my favorite forms of evolution, people who refuse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, natural selection. The Darwin Awards. Yeah, exactly.

As long as they refuse. Not for their kids, obviously. That's the shame that it's, that is child abuse. Well, we want them to refuse before they have kids. Well, exactly. We've got them to refuse for themselves as an adult. Yeah, we want to make sure they don't, they won't reproduce.

But, you know, that's part of the problem. I've talked to, someone else we've talked to, Noam Chomsky, and he used to say with me that he didn't care what people believe it's what they do that matters. Of course. But the problem is what you believe affects what you do. So when you have these crazy beliefs,

like I'm doing some, are you a favor by not allowing you to have a transfusion? I ultimately do silly things. And so that's the reason, it seems to me, that's the reason to be grounded in reality at some level because you don't do silly things. Of course. Yeah, but he's right as well.

If people just believe silly things, it's not a problem. It's when they act on them. Yeah, but we all are. And I see, and I've never had a problem with spirituality or people believing in any God or whatever, or witches and warlocks. But if they start infringing on my rights to play out their fantasies, then that's when I've got a say in it.

Yeah, but the probably, yeah, I know, I agree. But I guess my problem is that no one's an island. I mean, so inevitably, if you have these crazy beliefs, you have kids or you have neighbors, And you impact on others. And so at some level that... Of course, but we should say that most religious people are normal. They just happen to believe in God.

And we think they're wrong. But, you know, I've often said if... And nice religious people, nice normal religious people. Church of England types. Well, yeah. They know the bits to ignore in the Bible. They pick and choose. So they don't need the Bible.

Yeah, yeah. If you know the bad bits from the good bits, You don't need it. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, and we, you know, that's what we call, we call extremists and fundamentalists, the people who believe the bad bits in their holy book as well. Yeah, they don't realize that if you took, well, we used to, if you took the Old Testament literally, it's a horrible thing.

And people complain about Islam and Muslim, but if you took the Old Testament and stoning it. I mean, but people always take, pick and choose what they want to. You know, there was a survey done. But that's the people choose their own religion. Yeah. If they don't like a bit in their religion, they modify it. And it's a new church. And exactly.

This one can drink and eat bacon. Yeah. That's my religion. Yeah. This is my religion. Yeah, exactly. Also, you know, not so much nowadays, but, you know, there's modern sex popping up all over. But the ancient ones were definitely made by the people in charge to better themselves,

just like apologists and today, stitch up what's right and wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You create your morality. If you're in charge, you create morality that's right for you. Right for you. Yeah.

And make sure everyone else does it. Of course, yeah. But, you know, there was an interesting survey done in the UK, which was asking people in the census. One of the good things about the census was for the first time, I think almost 50% of the people said they didn't have religion or they weren't members of the Church of England. And they asked people why do you say you're Christian?

Do you believe in transubstantiation or the Virgin? And people would say, no, no, no, no. And they'd say, well, why? And they'd say, I like to think of myself as a good person. Yeah. So for most people, being religious just means, you know, they've got the morality. Yeah, it's a shortcut. And that's why they pass it on to their kids because I think they're, you know, I've said before, you know, my mum was, she was mildly religious. Again, C of E religious. Yeah, yeah. Go to church and you're a good person, you're a respectable person. And usually, you know, for a working class mum, Jesus is an unpaid babysitter. Yeah, yeah.

If I can't watch you, he can. And you take that for a while, and it's fine. And I don't think it's particularly harmful outside academia. But, yeah, then you realize that it's just not true. Even if you look at the stats of religious people in prisons to atheism, but, you know, it doesn't add up. And morality predates all religion. You know, we got on before we had to make the rules.

Yeah, yeah. I think if there's one thing I would love to be able to get across to people, is that, you don't, I mean, morality is, in principle, ultimately is something we develop and we tune our religion to fit the morality we have. I mean, we don't need to believe in God to be good. No, yeah. And am I actually a friend of my Steve? I think even religious people believe that.

Yeah, yeah. I think they know that. But, you know, so there's a friend of mine of physicist, Steve Weinberg, who won Nobel Prize, but he's in a, atheist. And he said, I'll paraphrase him, but he put it, he said, so they're good people and bad people, good people do good things, bad people do bad things. When good people do bad things, it's religion. It's interesting because you can motivate yourself because of a belief that somehow there's a divine right to do something. Well, of course. You know, you're burning people or, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah, that's not always the case, but it certainly can motivate you to do bad things and justify it because of what you're told. Because, you know, that's the purest form of brainwashing. When you're a kid, your brain's a sponge, and your parents tell you, don't go near the fire, don't go near the spider, don't go near the thing. If you do that, you go to hell. What? And if it's, and it's laid down, you know, and it's equated to all those other things that are true and observable, and, you know, you shouldn't go near a lion and all that sort of stuff.

And if you're never, you know, when you're eight years old and you say, is there really a Santa? Yeah. Parents go, no, don't tell your little sister. But they don't do that with God sometimes. Yeah, it's really, because they think it's. It'd be bad for you to be an atheist in society. And in some places, it is. Yes.

It's a rule of survival. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in spite of the problems, we're just lucky that we can even have this conversation. Of course. But most of human history, we couldn't even have even had this conversation and walked out of the room alive. It's my only thing I can hold on to that I'm oppressed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's, there's 13 countries I can't even visit.

Yeah. Only 13? I'm oppressed. Yeah, there you go. It's nice. Well, the... Okay, well, it's nice. We all got to feel like victims in the model.

Luckily, I don't want to go, though, anyway. Yeah, that's probably... They're the 13 countries I don't want to go to. So it's worked out really well. Did they have Netflix in those countries or no? Yeah. Oh, dear. Yeah.

Well, you know, but it's interesting. And I've said this, you know, that in some sense, teaching religion to kids as child abuse, because... And I just look at... learned a quote the other day from the, it was from the Archbishop Canterbury who said, educating children is like engraving in stone. And that, it's really hard to outgrow because the kids aren't, I mean, that question is a deep question ultimately. And a kid, you know,

it's not even that it works. Yeah. It's that you were given to it as, as truth when, you know, before you could think about things. And it was, you learn it here, you know, of course, rather than there there. And it's, you know, and, and I remember it was actually Richard who alerted me to this. I'd never thought of that. There's a picture in the paper he showed of, at Christmas time, of four little kids. And it's really sweet. There's, it says a Muslim kid and a Jewish kid and a Catholic kid and a Protestant kid. And they're all playing together and say, hold on a second, a three-year-old. It's like, that's not a Catholic kid. That's a three-year-old. It's like saying it's a neoliberal kid, a deconstructious kid. And we label them. And then,

And that becomes their reality. Well, faith schools and yeah. Yeah. So you were, as far as I was reading, you were eight, you went to church, you were eight. And then do you make a decision not to go at that point? No, I still went. I was, I went because I got paid for being in the choir until I was about 14. I just kept it quiet that I was an atheist. I'll take the money.

Sure, absolutely. Not an idiot. Atheist got a worn. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Atheists have to eat like everybody else. Exactly, yeah. No, and I remember the moment as well. I believed in God just because I thought everyone did and that was it.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, me too. And everyone around me said things like God. It was on the telly, everywhere. It was God. It was a God. It made it all, pretty, right? I was still, I knew about evolution and all those things.

Yeah, you know, I just thought, he just started it. He did it. Yeah, sure. There was no real, there was no. Cognitive distance. No, exactly, yeah. So, and I think, I think I like Jesus more because he was a bit of a superhero.

I liked him because he was kind and he... Yeah, sure. You know, he... He could walk in water. And he did things. He helped people. I thought he's cool. Yeah.

In fact, I liked him more. I liked his human half more than his God half. I don't know the rules. So I don't want to offend anyone. Yeah, it's like... You don't? No. But I was doing Bible studies and my brother who was 11 years older than me.

So I was about eight and he was about 19. and he came in and he looked and he said, why did you believe in God then? And my mum went, Bob, and I knew she was hiding something. Oh. And I thought, oh, what was that? And I thought, yeah.

And then I started thinking about all the things I've been taught versus all the things in science I'd been taught. And I thought, oh, yes, of course, it's just like Santa. Yeah, I mean, so you had the moment. For me, it was just kind of a, you know, I'd like to believe and I want, and then I just started the stories. started to seem to be seen a little wilder and wilder. And it was like Santa eventually just seemed

like it was unlikely to be true. It wasn't a cathartic moment. It wasn't epiphany for me. It was just sort of a no. But you had an older brother that that had that influence. Yeah. So he did your mom, was your mom, when did you come out to your mother? I think it was just easier then. I don't think I did, I didn't particularly talk about it because it just wasn't a big deal. You went to church because it was the center of the community. I was a cultural Jew and my mom the same, you know. Yeah, exactly. It's not, it's, you know, everyone's a bit lapsed. It's, everyone I knew had to find a church to get married in. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because they hadn't I'd like to say that my church, my social religion ended when I found someone who would marry us and my wife

was Catholic. It wasn't religion. It was a club. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a club that you had to get through to get married and out of a christening. And it was a social occasion. It wasn't, no one really thought, I mean, some people did, but, uh, you know, and I, I think that, more and more if you ask people what they really believe in, you know. People have found this thinking that agnosticism is a polite term. Yeah. And I try and explain they're not mutually exclusive. One deals with knowledge.

One deals with belief. Yeah, yeah. In fact, I just edited an old book about atheism. And this guy said, you know, atheism is unscientific. Which is, but agnosticism isn't. But the point is what hadn't, I hadn't appreciated it. I read this particular book and I wrote a forward for it that agnosticism is atheism because agnosticism is just saying the evidence doesn't convince me.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not, it's not sufficient to make me believe. I don't believe. Yeah, and then that's a form of atheism. And faith people say, and I don't know, but I believe anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.

And I think the mistake comes when people say that atheism is unscientific is because they think atheism means I know there's no God. Yeah, exactly. As opposed to, I don't believe in any of your God so far. Yeah. convince me. I get tweets, if they proved God existed, would you believe then? I go, of course I would.

Yeah, yeah. And it would be the greatest scientific discovery ever. Ever, exactly. Forget everything else. Don't give the prize anymore. Don't give the that's the one. That's it. It's done. Exactly, yeah. Exactly, yeah. I always say, people say, what would it take? I said, tonight the stars realligned

and said, I'm here. It didn't have to be in English. It could be an Aramaic, you know, whatever. Ironically, atheists would all believe. Yeah, right? But all the other religions wouldn't because it'd be the wrong God. Yeah, exactly, the wrong God, exactly. No, no, no, that's just... Yeah, exactly.

It's like NASA. We never landed on the moon. It's really fake. They did that just to do that. You know, it's... So your mom has always been fine then with... I mean, she's... I guess she had to tolerate you because you...

Listen, she just hoped that we didn't get killed in a bar room fight and did okay. Yeah. And it was all about the kids, you know. Just be nice and don't die. That was it. Be nice and don't die. That's a great thing. That was it.

So they use anything. Well, it worked on you. They use anything. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if it's the same here, but there was a study done of about 2,000 adults of an atheist where just the word, less trusted than anyone except for rapists. Yeah. I think it was joint bottom with rapists in America, wasn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. And it was just sort of sad. It's that notion of that. I also, it makes me laugh that they think atheism is extremely. because you don't believe in any God. Yeah, yeah. Whereas believe in one,

choose one. Yeah, don't be an extremist. You know, by the way, what you said in the unbelievers, the things you said, I thought were the men and the best things we got.

But it was exactly that. As you said, it's just one extra God. I don't believe it. Yeah, as you point out. Exactly. Yeah. And this whole idea that we're called

mills into atheists. I don't know what that means. You throw pamphlets at people or something or books or something, but what is it? What is it, what is it mills into atheists? I don't understand.

They don't realize. the irony in that statement with what we've seen militant religious people. The other one, what annoys me now is new atheists. Yeah. Because they're trying to equate that with bigotry. Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, the thing is, new atheists, extreme atheists, what it means is atheists who refuse to be burnt at the stake anymore.

That's what it means. We're not ashamed of it anymore. But atheists have been around a long time. People haven't been buying that stuff for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's... Well, we're born atheist. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We are. We're born atheists and we're, yeah, that's right. And unlike what my old friend, Christopher Hitchens used to say about, what he found so awful about at the time about religion was it said you're born ill, but you're commanded to be well. And that notion, whereas you actually didn't do anything wrong until you do it. You're not born having been.

It's also, it's also a very worrying trait for someone to believe that babies aren't innocent. Yeah, yeah. That's a bit worrying, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's a bit sick. It's really sick. And unfortunately, I think it's probably traumatic for many kids. My ex-wife was a Catholic, and I remember the first time she went to church,

and they told her that her soul was like a lung, you know, and it started out white, but you do all these, you know, sins. And by the time you're that age when she was going to go to confirmation, it was, you know, it was black and you had to do these things to try. It was just traumatic. It's traumatic. It's really scary. It's really scary.

I'm happy about that part about having grown up Jewish. At least there wasn't that stuff. I never, I never, I just got told that, you know, all these bad things happened. And we were, the Old Testament is, isn't that the first form of Judaism? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it didn't, but there wasn't. No, no, no, no one. The soul, hell and those things.

I never really heard about that when I was growing up. Yeah, so the New Testament was trying to make it less Jewish for. Yeah, for everyone else. Exactly. Yeah. All I got from the Old Testament. supposedly that, well, we're better than everyone else. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Jesus in my church looked like Brad Pitt. Yeah, well, there you go. White, blue eyes, blonde hair. Yeah, blonde hair. Yeah, yeah. There were a lot of those people in the Middle East. It wasn't Middle East. He wasn't Middle East.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay, I think enough, well, we'll talk about, I want to talk a little bit about enough religion already. Enough religion already. We've given it too much air time already.

But I want to ask, you know, your brother influenced you there. You brought, I think you said to your brother was the, funniest person you'd ever... Growing up, he was the first person I saw saying things, undermining societal norms, being funny and irreverent and impolite. And I thought, and, you know, and it worked, you know. Yeah, sure. And, you know, the first person you answered back to was your parents and he answered back, you know, he got sent to bed. Yeah. I remember thinking, no, he was right. Yeah. And I thought, oh, you, they lost the argument. They loved the argument. He said a few truths.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah. They had no recourse, but they say. Like Jesus. That's right. I'll go to bed, yeah. So, yeah, I certainly, yeah. Did he, you think that, I guess the answer is obvious,

but that had an impact on you. Well, you know, everything does, yeah. My older brother was sort of quiet and smart and, and that had an influence on me. I, you know, I quite liked the idea of academia from there. My sister, I felt like I was an experiment. because my sister taught me to read when I was three. I remember the teachers showing other parents that making me read like I was a performing monkey

in this school, right? And so they all had an influence on me and I think that's because being the youngest has an influence. I was going to say, by 11 years. Oh, are more comedians the youngest children? I don't know if that's true. You have to jump around to be heard.

It's probably a cliche, but there must be something in it. And your boundaries have already been pushed a little bit. Yeah. You know, you get an easier life. The life's a bowl of cherries, but you just have to be heard. Yeah. And you sort of see the absurdity of life by watching your older brothers interact with your parents and stuff like that. And sometimes it can go far too far the other way because there was a danger that I was almost like an only child.

Yeah. Because 11 years. Yeah. How old as your sister? So it goes 11, 13, 14. Oh, wow. I remember asking my mum when I was about 13, why are my brothers and sister so much older than me? And she said, because you were a mistake. Oh, great.

I just laughed. Honesty. Honesty's good. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to say, okay, if we're doing something, they're all a mistake. Yeah, yeah. They were all a mistake.

Did you say that? I've seen the wedding pictures. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. So the, you know, one of the influence, yeah, but I'm, well, that's, Bob was always the clown mucking around,

pushing the boundaries, saying the things you shouldn't to coming a fact. But he didn't, but he, but did, I don't know what, when he eventually got up to, What did he do? Did he become an academic? No, my older brother became a teacher.

No, that's nice. Yeah, he's retired now. And my sister also works in the teacher profession with kids with learning difficulties and stuff. Well, that really takes a lot of patience. Yeah, I have a hard time doing that. And my brother was a painter and decorator. I mean, he still works. Still works.

Do you think, in a sense that, Ben, in comedy or a teacher? Secretly, I like it to do more than just make you laugh. I mean, that is the main aim. You've got to do that. Yeah, sure. You can't forfeit that for other things. But if I can do, I do like to make them think as well,

and I do like it to resonate, and I do like them to, you know, think of it the next day. I don't just be throw away, and they had an hour and a half, and then they go back and they forget everything I said, and it was good, and they just laughed. because you can tickle yourself with a feather. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, absolutely.

So I do try and sneak in something, and I think that they feel that they've gone through more of a process. And that's why I deal in taboo subjects as well, because I think I want to take them to a place they haven't been before. Exactly. Because I think comedy is a surprise. Yeah, okay. And I do feel, if I, when I start on a contentious subject,

I feel the tension like, oh, is this going to be all right? Are we going to have to laugh? And I take them through a scary forest and out the other side. And it's always okay and they, few, right? And I think that's the important thing because I've often said that people get offended when they mistake the subject of a joke with the actual target.

And they're not necessarily the same thing. You can make jokes about any subject. It depends what the joke is. Yeah. There's no rules. You can't joke about this. You can. You can.

You just can. Yeah. Okay. And there's nothing sacred. Well, that's the point. There's nothing sacred. So everything should be, everything should be subject to ridicule.

Yeah. I mean, even just to force you to understand, think about it more. I know. But people then they go, wow, yeah, but you shouldn't know people's feelings. Well, you can if their feelings are wrong. Yeah, yeah. If you don't like the facts, get, don't change the facts, change the feelings. Yes, you know.

And also, then they try and do this thing, oh, you should, you should never punch down. You should punch up. Well, who's to say what's up and down is? Yeah, yeah, it's a subjective. So you're deciding who's down and who. who's up. No, no, no, no, no, you don't get to do that. Yeah, no, and so there's this whole thing nowadays about not offending people and, and, and people feeling uncomfortable in the States is a big thing with sort of target words and safe zones. People don't want to hear anything, a word that they

don't like. How arrogant are you to think that you deserve to go through life with no one ever saying anything that you don't agree with or like? It's, you know, but I think it's, at least it's, in the States, I think it's a property of upbringing, we're people. Parents sort of convince their kids. When I was growing up, we played in the streets, right? But now you don't go in the streets. It's dangerous. Nothing should ever, you should never take any risks and nothing should ever, you shouldn't do anything that might hurt you in any way or make you uncomfortable in any way. And education and science, the purpose of it is to make a good sense of humor. Yeah. It makes you bulletproof. Yeah. You don't have to pave the jungle.

Yeah. You can just grow up there and have a laugh about it. Exactly. And then you'll be all right. You own the offense. And I think that's what, you know, my wife is always something that. If you offend someone, in some sense, they own the offense. Stephen Fry said it. You know, I offend you? Well, you have no special rights because I offend you. You can, and you can decide what you're going to do. You can laugh about it.

Yeah. Or you can speak to me about it and say, you know what? You heard me. Or you can go home and fester about that for 10 years and then later on complain and. But it's trying to make, I'm offended, sound important. Yeah. It's no different to saying, I've got a pain in my leg. Yeah.

I believe you. Yeah. But there's nothing to do with me. Yeah. Yes, yes. I mean, there's, you know, the question is, is one trying to intentionally offend? No, never. But sometimes, you know, maybe it's like being religious.

Sometimes you're trying to do it to help someone. I mean, in the sense of getting to think about things. I mean, you're offending ideas, but not first. And I understand, well, that's the other thing. Yeah. People try and give ideas rights. Yeah, exactly. So you're not allowed to offend their, you know, they jump in the way of the bullet and say,

why are you shooting at me? Yeah. If someone insults maths, I don't go, Oh, dare you're mad. Yeah. And so what all you like. It works. Yeah, exactly.

If you're so fragile that you think that a joke about someone can destroy it, whether you need something else then. It's nonsense. And now people saying, you know, people mistake sometimes demanding equality, right, by not being part of humour. Yeah. It's actually demanding privilege. Yeah.

It's nonsense. But I agree. it's it's someone says they're offended i want people to stop saying that joke's offensive yeah i want to start saying i found it offensive because you got our own the emotion because that's all it is you're just telling me how you feel about it yeah there's nothing intrinsically offensive about this joke it's a words it's ideas it's no exactly yeah and you know i was actually listening to and and they can be offensive at certain occasions not i was listening to a whole podcast years of and um and uh i guess it was stevens that was talking you were talking about words and and you could say

cock and tits. And it just depends on the context, right? Of course. Yeah, I mean, you know, a bird and the tits are little birds or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it also, when them, to be polite, they asterix out the you in fuck. Yeah.

Like it's the valve that's offensive. It's just that, that you in any word. Yeah. Once you see it, and now I see it's fine. It's great. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And actually, in that regard, I'm always amazed that when people take offense of these

kind of things that are, actually someone just wrote my stepdaughter's school saying we're going to show this film and it's got you know it's got serious notions but it also had you know some some sexual language in it but don't worry we've taken out the sexual language and I just think you know we let we put we restrict movies because they have sex in them but we don't if when people are being stabbed in the eye or their head is being cut off I think it was training day I was watching

in America I was in the gym once believe it or not And a training day was on. Exactly, yeah. And it was like 2pm in the morning. And there's a scene there where he's going, fuck you, no, fuck you. And they changed that to forget you, right? And then he shot him in the heart.

I'd rather you swore at me. If given the choice, what I find more offensive. Yeah, exactly. No, it's, yeah, that's really, well, but you know, what's kind of nice is that when you're, can use comedy, I think, to talk about things which would otherwise be of great concern,

but it gives you an in-in, it gives you a secret way. That's what humor's for. It gets us over bad stuff. If you can't joke about bad stuff, that's exactly what it's for. You know, it sharpens our claws. You know, it makes us, it keeps us fighting for the real world. It also gives you license as either an entertainer or as a public figure. Oh, of course.

It helps you understand things. Yeah. As well. I think it was a Picasso that said art is a lie that helps you understand the truth. So all these things in a metaphor, poetry, jokes, satire, they are teaching you something, whether you know it or not. It's sneaking in learning. Yeah.

See, now I didn't meet you to the philosophy program. There was the art. You get me the art line. That was it. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. I've got loads of it.

I've got loads of sayings of other really clever people. Well, it's, you know, but that's often what you need to get at school. It's really interesting to say that. Or at least appreciating what are good ideas and bad. That itself is an interesting and takes some learning or at least some experience to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. Yeah. I mean, and obviously the problem comes that we're all different and art is subjective. Yeah, yeah.

Comedy or whatever. What's funny. What people find funny. It depends upon their experience and the mood they're in the day and so many other things. I don't think you should be ashamed of fun. finding anything funny. Yeah. Because it's not your fault.

That's what you are. Yeah. If you see someone fall over the street and you laugh, you can then feel, but it was, you've obviously found it funny. Yeah. You can't deny it. Yeah. I see it with audiences.

They laugh and then they go, oh my God. I shouldn't have. I don't know. Well, if you laughed, you should have. Well, you know, it's a great feeling. Yeah, it's a great feeling. Yeah, it's a great feeling. And there must be, and there's got to be an evolutionary purpose, right?

I think so. I mean, we, we, at humor and anthropologists think the first, joke was one caveman seeing another caveman bump his head because it's about empathy. And I think comedy can be about empathy because I think comedy is often laughing at the wrong thing because you know what the right

thing is. And so you feel good, I get that. Yeah, I get that. And it is undermining societal norms. That's what's funny. That's what's funny. That's what the surprise is. That's what the misdirection is. That's what we find funny. Something that shouldn't have happened or doesn't usually happen. And that's why the funniest person you know isn't a professional comedian. It's your dad or your granddad or your uncle, because someone has to walk in the pub and you see your uncle do a second and you're laughing because you know what he's thinking. And it's about empathy because you go, I know why you're laughing. You're laughing at his wig or something because you know him and that's

a shared moment. And that's what's lovely about it. Because it's about humanity. Comedy is about humanity. Because if it's not about humanity, it's not funny. Is that why you called this special humanity, by the way? No, maybe it was just a plug. Yeah. But it is. It has to be, and we see everything through our eyes.

You know, we personify things. And it was actually, for me, by the way, it was my uncle. I mean, my uncle, he just passed away and I just spoke at his funeral a week ago. But he was the first person, I saw it was funny. And I thought, wow. I And it was so effective that I thought I want to grow up and be like that.

Of course. You want people that they're warriors. They're not scared. It breaks down the barriers. It opens doors. And death is funny. Yeah. Death is funny because it's going to happen to all of us.

Yeah. You know, and it's a shed. And we know that I know you're scared about it as well. That's what's funny. Yeah. You're as scared as me. Yeah. And I think that I don't fear death.

I don't know. I fear death. I don't fear being dead. It's the beauty of being dead. You don't know about it. It's like when people ask me, you know, what happens you die? I say, well, what was it like before you were born? Exactly. Like that. It's just exactly like that. It's just exactly like that. It's like being stupid. It's only painful for others. So speaking of death, afterlife, which, you know, I already wrote you personally. Just the most brilliant thing. I mean, I've seen on TV. I haven't seen this week's Game of Thrones. So I should But, but, no, it's just unbelievably great. Thank you. In every way. And I will say this too publicly.

I thought, whoever wrote that has got to be a really nice guy. I mean, no, really, it's just so many. It's the way it meshes comedy and serious questions, but issues in an empathetic way, I just, is brilliant. It's about humanity again. It's about humanity, but you use death. And there's some atheism in there. And so it's sort of a play on the title

because I think it was important that the character didn't think that his wife was up in heaven looking down. He didn't have that comfort. Yeah, yeah. So he knew this was it. And he'd lost everything. So the question is,

is life still worth living when you've lost everything. Yes, and instead of saying it is, this was an explanation of the journey to find out it was. It's complicated. It's complicated. It's not to be. I mean,

I like to say, hey, the fact that we're just here a moment in the sun, fact that there's no purpose of my life. For me, that happens to enrich my life. It makes every moment more precious. But I can see for other people, they say, what a tragedy. And it's nice to take people through that. Yeah. Well, I think that as well. I think that you say we didn't exist for 13 and a half billion years. Then we have this 400 trillion to one shot with that sperm hitting that egg. And us being us for 80, 90 years, if we're lucky, to experience everything just for the hell of it. Yeah, just for the hell of it. Just because we can. Why not?

Yeah. Because we won't get it. And then we go back to not existing again forever. And we enjoy that moment of existence. And I think people take offence because they think that I'm, they feel that as an affront. And they go, how dare you say that I'm not going to go to heaven?

Yeah. I'm not saying you're not going to go to heaven. I'm saying that there is no heaven. Go there if you want. But it's just nowhere. Yeah, it's right. Believe it if you want. Yeah.

Yeah. Peace death is heaven. Yeah. Peace and quiet. That's fucking heaven. all your relatives and all the people, the murderers, rapists who said sorry on the deathbed, fuck that, that's not heaven.

Exactly. I always thought about that. Why do people think living for an eternity would be heaven? I mean, anyone, your best friend, but much less your in-laws or any of you, it's for eternity. Again, eternity is a hell of a long time. It's not just, it's not 100 years.

I know. I'm 57, it's dragging on a bit now. By the way, you know, I wonder whether you found it hard to play. In afterlife, You play someone who speaks his mind without a filter. How on earth did you get... Well, you say that.

You say that. But actually, I don't speak my mind. I bite my tongue every 30 seconds because I'm not a psychopath and I worry about the consequences. So, you know, when I mugged, I hand over the money. Yeah, yeah. Because they might have a knife or, you know, or you might be with someone who get hurt or they know where I live. But, you know, obviously Tony, my character, he's got nothing to lose. So he goes, bring it on.

You know, so I think the comedy and the drama comes from us living vicariously through his freedom that we haven't got. Because, you know, we do worry about people's feelings and we do worry about being right and honest. And I think as I go on, as a writer or a comedian, all I care about now, again, the funny is still first. Yeah, sure. But next is, am I being as honest as I could be? That's interesting. Am I really, am I really striped? I've just got to be honest and brave.

Am I being as honest and brave as I could be? Because that's all that matters now. It is. Well, I guess you think because it's easier, because you have such great success, it gives you more opportunity to be honest and brave, then would you have been more afraid of it when you were breaking into the field?

Well, you could say the other way that, you know, you've got more to lose. Or to lose and you're a famous person. You can, everyone goes for you. But so what I try and do is try and make what I say defendable and, you know, bulletproof. Now I've got to worry about what I say being defendable in 10 years' time with people going back and finding historic tweets and ruin people's career. But I don't care. You know, I love the fact, you know, that one of the things I admire, and you're in a position where you can do that.

When I'm associated with an institution like university, I can't do that. You respond to ridiculous tweets and you know, and you just say, you say what needs to be said. And without, it seems to me, without fear of later on being the profile, deep platform for having said something. Well, I just think that I don't want to be beholden to anyone. Yeah, yeah. I don't work for anyone. I don't.

Actually, tell you, truth, that's one. I was motivated. It was actually you in a way that made me think about doing this podcast and working just for myself through this because it gives you so much more freedom to be able to do the things you want to do because you're not beholden anymore.

Because I respect the law and I respect honesty and with all these, there's already a load of caveats to freedom of speech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I agree with libel and slander laws. I agree with those. I agree with protecting children.

I believe with the watershed. I agree with food additives. I agree with all the things. What I don't agree with is you shouldn't say something in case it hurts someone's feeling somewhere. Well, fuck that. Yeah, well, the whole point in which I try to, lately in the United States is more and more under attack.

Unfortunately, it's the right wing that are at least defending a little bit. Yeah. Freedom of speech is designed to protect speech you don't like. You don't have to respect the speech you like. It's designed to respect to speech to someone you say that's horrible. If you don't believe in respecting the freedom of speech for people who say things you don't agree with,

you don't agree with freedom of speech. And it's this nonsense that... I did a tweet recently that I said, I'm a typical lefty, liberal snowflake, champagne socialist kind of guy, anti-racist, anti-sex. And yet when I defend freedom of speech, I'm suddenly all right.

When did that happen? It's crazy. Well, and it's... But it is crazy, and it worries me in the States that the people who, because of this safe zone issue, the fact that people don't want to be uncomfortable, in fact, there was a U.S. University, I heard this. My wife was telling me this, that a speaker came in, and he was speaking on due process and freedom of speech. And they created a safe zone so people didn't have to hear. And I say, but that's hurting the left because the rights, you know, Trump,

It's like a monkey on a typewriter. Every one, he does something right every now. And then he actually issued an executive order, which is without teeth, but nevertheless, saying that if universities didn't respect freedom of speech, they wouldn't get federal funding. But it's sad when it has to be Trump that says that. But it's, yeah, it's crazy that it's colleges,

that is the seat of education and progress. And that's odd that it's there. You think that they'd have their, you'd think they'd have their backs against the wall with flaming torture saying, keep away with what we... You think there'd be the last bastion of that and they're not. It's odd and it's actually art. Yeah. That's, that's, you know. Have you, do college, did you do college campuses or, you know, on your, wouldn't stand up tours or anything like that?

Did you ever do that? I don't, but that's because we don't really have them like you do in America. I mean, you didn't know, I mean, you've never been a situation where a group has said, well, you can't come. We don't want you. You're just too, uh, no, I don't think, I don't, I don't think anywhere's I mean I've played a few colleges but I think they're I think because I they're private theatres that are in because I have I haven't walked into a student union and said I want to tell you some truths I don't do I think people think that of me like I ran into churches and going it's all yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't do that I don't care what they yeah yeah carry on a piece on you that you respond yeah but when

you come to see one of my gigs that's my church yeah you know this is like your your only choice is leaving yeah yeah really and I think that and and in art you know that is your only choice. You know, you know, the only form of censorship is your right not to listen. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing when people come to hear you or come to read you and they say, that's offensive. And you say, why do you bother? You know, actually there was a situation that happened to be here in the UK, probably the most terrifying thing I've done. It was a very nice group here asked me to do a debate on atheism versus Islam. And they were very respectful of me. But one of the things was that people told me they were going to segregate it between male and female.

I said, you're not going to do that. And they said, no, we're not going to do that. And they, and then I went in and there was a separate door for men, a separate door of women, separate. And I said, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to do this. And I'm going to walk out. And they put a lot of, a lot of publicity. So I walked out. And of course, they had me come back in and mixed them up of it. Well, and I said, you're going to mix them up. And some kids moved. And and there was a big, as always, there was someone on a camera.

And the good news was that, that this got in the papers and actually ended up this group. This was at the University College London, I think. It was at a public, it was at a secular environment, and they eventually got told

they couldn't do that anymore. But what happened was, at the end of it, there was a question period, and there were a bunch of women and burghers, and one of them was very upset saying, why did you force me to sit next to a man? And I said, look,

you didn't have to come here. you could have, this is going to be on the web, you could, you could have stayed home if you're, you had the choice, if you went to a football game, as you call here, I was going to say soccer, but a football game here, you know that you don't have that choice. So you're, you, and, and you could have moved. It's your choice. But, but people, you know, so that, that, that idea that somehow people go out of their way to listen to you or read you and then be, and then be offended by you, and want to, and want to stop you from saying what you're going to say is a worrisome thing. Yeah, it is very odd. And, uh, but,

You know, again, I've said this, just because you're offended, it doesn't mean you're right. Some people are offended by equality. Some people are offended by mixed marriage. Yeah, yeah. It's like it doesn't mean anything. Yeah. It doesn't mean anything. And again, if your beliefs are cool, but if they infringe on human rights or our rules or, you know, that we've decided that we want to live by the law, then there's a problem.

And I think people are just a secular society. a secular society would protect everyone's right to worship whatever God they wanted. Yeah, yeah. And it's the only society that would. Yeah. Ancient Rome used to do that. And there's a great book that just came out by Catherine Nixie on, it's terrifying, on how Christianity destroyed the classical world in a way that made ISIS look tame.

Because the Roman and Greek, they did, they, one more, God, great, bring it on. It was no problem. And they effectively in a hundred years removed. I think, I might not be true, but I think Christians were called atheists. Yeah, yeah. Because they didn't believe in all the gods. Yeah, yeah, you talked about that. I think they may have. Yeah. But they very effectively changed things so that it was now no longer, all other gods were wrong. And they very effectively and viciously removed every remnant of the classical world of statues and people. And it was really, uh, uh, and so, you know, notion that, you know, hey, it's okay, you're right. A good society say, okay, you know, you

bring it on. I just think that it's a slippery slope and, you know, you're always one step away from book burning. Yeah, yeah, always one step away. Yeah. And, and but, but to get back to you saying people think you go into churches and do that, in the tweets, and I think this was the point I was trying to get at when I did my little, I was trying to remember why I gave that talk, gave that, they have to be following me to. Yeah, they have to be following it. And the tweets that are most, how can I say, not offensive, but most direct, are when you're responding to someone who's made a point of trying to bait you or something. Well, I talk about this on humanity that, you know, people have to be, they can be following

me without me knowing and then get offended by one of my tweets. That's like going into a town square and seeing a notice, guitar lessons. And you're going, but I don't fucking want guitar lessons. That's the, I remember hearing you say that and that's so brilliant. It's true. And people say, why do you keep forcing your eyes? atheism on people. I go, no, no, no, you have to be following me to hear about my, I'm not running churches, I'm not in schools. I'm not on, you know, it's like, if you don't like me, just don't

follow me, don't listen to me. You've basically come in my house and ask me if I'm an atheist or not. I've said yes, and you've gone, why are you forcing it on me? Leave, just leave. It's leave. I suddenly thought of this connection. Honesty, it just occurred to me that I see a thread in here. I love that film. What was it called? Something about lying. They mentioned a lying. Yeah. And it's interesting there that here was someone, I suddenly resonated with me. And you talk about comedy being, being able to say things that are, that are outrageous, but go against social mores. And being able to lie with, you know, it's like magic, being able to lie by tell the truth.

And did that come into writing that to that movie at all? And that notion... Well, I do think that, I mean, the big move there that everyone picks on in The Eventive Lion is obviously when I invent religion. When I tell my mother that there is a lovely place where she'd go to, because I feel, because she's scared about death.

And I'm pretty sure that's how spirituality started. Sure. And then it got carved up and became organized and a business and all the... those things that we know it's wrong with religion that's not wrong with spirituality. And but it was more, again, it was quite an academic upshot. And I think comedy is an intellectual pursuit, not an emotional one. And I think once you start worrying about what the audience think or trying to get them on your

side with your political beliefs or whatever, you're not doing comedy anymore. You're losing them at comedienately. You're rally. If you're looking for agreement, you're not doing anything. And I think sensible people can laugh at things they don't agree with because they get the joke. And I think that's true in any art form. Yeah, you should be trying to, I mean, yeah, if you're trying to get people to follow you, one if we were performing at the Sydney Opera House,

and there was a question here, it said, people said, how can you get people to follow you? And I was there with Richard again, and we said, we're not trying to get people. We're just trying to get people to think. Yeah, exactly. And I think if you, it must be the same. It's the same in comedy. Anything you do, I mean, music, which you're involved in. You're trying to get people to reflect. You're not trying to get them like. I'm also, you know, I'm not a politician. I'm not a leader. I'm not these people's parents. I'm not trying them to, you know,

to change their ideas. I'm just doing it. I'm doing it because it's fun, because I believe it. And it's my job. It makes me money. You know, the only thing I do for free probably is to get people to change their mind over is something like animal cruelty. Yeah. And but no, most of the time, I'm having a laugh or exercising my right to say what I think.

Well, that's, you know, I tell people, that's why I do science. That's why most people I know who do science. It's not, look, I mean, some people are trying to save the world, and that's great. But I think I do science because I like it. And if you didn't like it, you couldn't do it well. I mean, it's just fun for me.

And it may sound very selfish, but it's just, you know, that's why you do what you do. I think there's no difference to people who are trying to find out a mathematical equation to someone who cures all cancers. They were doing it because they could and they were interested and they want to find the answer. Like you do a crossword to complete the puzzle. And obviously with science you can never complete the puzzle because there's always another answer. But the journey is the fun part. The journey is the fun. The journey is the part.

It's academic. It's fun. It's exciting. It's a, it's one of the reasons for living. Yeah. It's amazing to find stuff out. It's orgasmic. This aha experience is incredible.

Anytime you, you discover something, hey, you know, it just feels good. It feels good. And it feels good in everything. It feels good when you hit the ball and tennis for the first time. Oh, oh, that's it. I'll never forget that. Yeah. You know, riding a bike.

I'm riding a bike. You know, it's like, it's amazing to get good at stuff and find stuff out or to try and get good at stuff. And it never ends, you know, it particularly frustrating. Back to evolution again, when people say, where's the missing link? I go, when I find the missing link, you'll have two missing links. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I find those two, you'll have four missing links. Yeah, it's great.

It's just, it's like, you know, I can't win. You can't win. Yeah, well, it's, it's. And science has been wrong. Science has never been wrong. Scientists have been wrong. Yes, and that's the big difference. Scientists are just people.

And that's like a diss to science that it corrects itself. Yeah. No, no, that's why dogma's bad. Yeah, yeah. That's, I tell people that, you know, again, really, the revolution, that that's the way you become famous on you by proving your colleagues wrong. It's not, you go in every day and in some sense you want to prove your colleagues wrong. Yeah.

Or yourself. Or yourself. That's good. In fact, that's fine. And so, that's pretty. probably the best thing that's the reason I sort of want kids to be exposed to science is in science you try and prove yourself right, but you try equally hard to prove yourself wrong. And that's so useful in the rest of life is to say, well, you know, I believe that, but is it

because I like the idea or is it right? But it's madness. You don't do it in any other form of life. Yeah. If you keep getting something wrong and it's harmful to, you don't keep doing it, thinking, no, it's the right way to do. Every time I jump out of a window, I break my bones, but it is the right thing to do. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm not. definitely the right thing to do. Yeah, I think that's a definition. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a definition. You're an idiot, then. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Going against what you've actually proven to yourself to me. Yeah.

No. It's fine. It's a good system. Yeah. But that's, by the way, I think the only way that you, that you learn, too, is by ultimately proving yourself wrong. Of course. And so.

That's what progress is. Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the things you, you know, that wonder of discovery, it occurred to me one day. Actually, I was at a Q&A after I appeared in some movie, which a great film, a documentary made by an Irish film called The Farthest about The Voyager. And I was talking about 10th teaching. It occurred to me, and it's maybe not profound,

but for me, it was a revelation. I realized that the first, whenever a child learned something new, for them, it's the first time in the history of the world that that's been understood. I know. And so we should teach kids by discovery, we should be questioning. Instead of wrote, this is what we know, it's a voyage of discovery together.

Hey, I don't understand this. Parents should say I don't understand this more. Let's figure it out. It's incredible. Even if I discover something that I think's new and someone says, no, no, someone did that. I go, I still feel as proud. Oh, yeah.

I go, well, I didn't know that. Yeah. So I'm as good as him. Yeah, exactly. It's just effort always to show you as good as. Yeah. I knew. The apple fell on me as well, mate.

Yeah, exactly. We've all done that one. I could have done that. If I've been there. Exactly. Yeah. No big thing. 400 year jump on me, but I could have been, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaking of fun, and I mentioned music and comedy, you said you started music, right? I mean, you wanted to, you joined a band, you got signed. Yeah. Music and comedy, how do you compare the two? Music is the greatest art form in the world. It is, it's like, it's like hearing an emotional. motion. It's incredible. There's nothing like it. It is. And you know, but for me, it's so frustrated. I love music. Yeah. But it's the only thing I've ever tried to do. And I've, you know,

that I don't do. I've, I've learned, I know how to play a whole bunch of instruments badly. Every time I took lessons, I got to point with the guy said, you know, I think you've got as far as you know. Yeah. And it really frustrates me. You talk about learning, playing chess. It's, it's real, because it's so wonderful. And it's frustrating to me that I can't do well. But it's, it's nothing like anything out. that we're excited about. It's not about maths. It's just how do you feel?

Yeah. It's incredible. You know, and more and more I get into instrumental music because, again, it's pure, you know. Do you still play music regularly? My own? Yeah. Oh, God, no.

No. No, my last outing was, luckily I was hiding behind irony with David Brent. Okay. Which is great fun, but not the real thing. No, no, not performing. just made at home? Yeah, but just a twiddle.

Yeah. That's good. That keeps the brain working. Yeah, sure. And you can think about other things as well. That's great. It's very good for you to play. They didn't experiment.

Again, they. Yeah, they, those famous people. No, no. Can I give any credit to read these things? Apparently with things that they gave it with different tasks. And playing an instrument lit up most of the brain, Most of the brain. So I must have something missing there. No, maybe. Yeah, I haven't got a chest brain.

Do you, but do you, well, actually, though, do you, when you're performing, do you feel like you're, I mean, like you're playing music? I mean, your whole plane lit up in the same way. I guess so, but then, um, uh, I think, uh, this is very in. And it's just my theory. It's probably not true again. Um, that there's a difference when when I'm, when I'm, when I'm, making a, like, afterlife where I'm trying to create a world and there's words and pictures and a story to get people in. And I think that's the most fundamental thing we have, a storytelling. You can have all the avatars and CGIs in the world, but it come down to one person telling another person what happened to them. And that's the most human it gets. Okay, that's never,

the campfire. That's where empathy starts, where caring starts, where intrigue. That is it. right yeah um so i do that and i make it and i put music on it oh and you know you manipulate emotions and you take them on a joke and you're surprised them and all that right and then you do your best guess and it's what you wanted i get fine led it and if it works out like i wanted it i can't fail yeah and i put it out there and there's nothing i can do about it yeah they tell me if they liked it or they didn't yeah stand-up's different stand-up is slightly more like a science because it either works or it doesn't. So I go out there every night and I hear the laugh. So I keep that bit. I don't hear the laugh, lose that bit or change it. So eventually I've created this perfect beast. It's natural

selection. It is. Yeah. The audience is the world. Yeah. And they've chosen the bits that work for them. And audience is the same everywhere. Interesting, really. Yeah. The biggest, whether it's a Friday or a Monday, whether it's a whole or a theater, makes more difference to where that thousand, 10,000 people are. Because when you get that many people, that's a sample. Yeah, yeah. So if they can understand what you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah.

They're the same. I could do, I could play Chicago one night and Liverpool the next. And I could do a readout of the laughs and the gas. It's exactly the same. That's fascinating. That is interesting. Yeah. And I've, well, you know, when I lecture, I mean, humor is an essential part of, for me,

it keeps me going. So when I'm lecturing or writing, humor is a, a big part of it. And what I was going to say is I noticed, I don't know if people are understanding me when I'm in Russia, say, giving a lecture. But the way I figure out find out is by making a joke. Yeah. And then, and then you know, because of course then there's like through a three second delay. Because they all have to laugh at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They can be nodding and pretending to get you. I agree. It's like it's, it's, that's when you're talking, it's like if you're not listening to a teacher and they say, so what do you think? And you have to go. Yeah.

I wasn't listening. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's why I know that's my calibrate. I don't do it with, um, translations. I play places where they speak English. Okay. Better than me.

Which is most places. No. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, it's a, it's a, it's a, uh, a very, uh, widely spoken language. Yeah, yeah. No, it's amazing.

And it is. And also they know it's going to be English. They don't come along unless they get it all in there. And, and, you know, the world's small and now. It's amazing. I mean, it's fortunate. away speaking English because yeah when I go around and I'm amazed because when I when I do these events how many people aren't wearing their translators because they'd rather do the English than

hear the translator speak it but you've got to talk about universal subject yeah you can't talk about what was on telly last night in your country that they won't get so it's you know but you just said in a way you've just said though humor is universal of course it's yeah as long outside cultural reference and that's why I make sure that it's you know if you understand the language you will get the the joke everyone everyone laughs and someone falls down no matter where. Exactly. Yeah.

It's like Victorine's Lion. You know, we're pretty much the same. See, I knew philosophy would come in here at that point. I can't help but think, I mean, you know, that you're doing philosophy. It had a huge impact and ultimately on what you do in comedy. Maybe, or maybe I was, I don't know. I mean, not doing philosophy, but your natural inclination to ask critically to think about that's why I want to flip this interview.

Okay, good. I don't like being, I don't like being the one. Well, I think it was a dialogue. Being all professorial because I feel... Yeah, but you're so wise. I'm just a student learning from your wisdom. No, I feel like a... So I'm going to ask you questions.

I'm a much better pupil because I'm still... I'm still wide-eyed about the world. I've never lost it. That's why I want to talk to you so much. I want to make people to make me laugh. I want to tell me one thing that I... We feel the same. Okay, right, good.

Okay. I mean, that's it for me, too. Where were we? So, okay. So, yeah, that thing about the... Adams. Yeah, so how far back close to the beginning are we now with what we know what happened? What we know what happened.

I take no to be that there's some experimental there. For me, if there's no experiment. I only mean that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so back, we know, we definitely know what happened back to about a millionth of a millionth of a second after the Big Bang. A millionth of a millionth of a second. Okay, so no, no, okay. So all that's here, all that's every,

everything, all this matter. Right? Okay. I know that's a dodgy one. No, no, no, no. I'm not... Was crammed into... A region the size...

You know, actually... Smaller than a... You applied to you, Mandy. I'm gonna... Can I send you my book, Adam? Sure. I wrote a book about the history of an atom from the beginning of the universe to the end.

Okay. Because I wanted to ask that question. So, when does it sort of... But it's amazing. At that time, we... When I first started talking, which is a time when we... The laws of physics we at least understand

can be extrapolated back to a time. when the entire universe, all 100 billion galaxies, each containing 100 billion stars, all that matter was crammed into a region the size of a single atom. Is that, I mean, so that's weird. Most things are nothing, aren't they? So an atom is mostly nothing.

A fly in the album will go around a tennis ball. Yeah, I mean, madam, mostly it's 10,000. The electron orbits the nucleus on a size about 10 to 100,000 times bigger than the atom. But it's even smaller than that. So does it work though? Does that, if that's a, not just a metaphor, this is what annoys me. Sooner, I don't want the metaphor.

I want to do the truth. But to start with a metaphor, does that, does the science work if every atom was the Albert Hall with a golf ball and a fly going around? Could every, could every golf ball and fly in the universe fit into one Albert Hall? Yes, but the problem is it stops being an hour. atom. Because the atom is... So can you squish that even more? Oh yeah, you are. At that point,

atoms don't exist because they couldn't. So if we get down to what matter is, what is there a... I like feeling stupid. I like it. Asking questions is never stupid. Okay, so, so I... So, so is there anything that is pure... Is there something as pure matter that can't be squished anymore?

That was what that we don't know. We know that... Fuck you. Yeah, no. No, but that's the right answer. You and your science. Yeah, exactly. What a fraud.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We don't know. We can all say that. Exactly. Right. Okay, so, so, okay, the best not knowing is a God. Right, okay. So, right, oh, no, and there's the other thing, right?

Okay, okay. So, okay, we've done that. Yeah, we've done that. Right, right. So there was no time before time. That's a good question. Well, we don't know. There was a place.

No, I... This is what kills me. Okay, so let's get that, right? Everything that exists, matter, antimah, everything. Space, time, nothingness. All didn't have to exist. That's the great thing. It can spontaneously pop to existence.

Space, time, matter. And you don't need any supernatural shenanigans. I wrote this book called The Universe of Nothing. It's amazing to me that science has come to the point saying, well, we don't know, but it's plausible. that you can start with no space, no time, and poop. Because of the law's quantum mechanics, space and time, so if we...

Okay, so if we take... Let's get to what's physical and real. So everything that exists now was in the thing and the size of small and out of mine. And a lot more than what exists, but anyway. Yeah, okay. What? Yeah, yeah, no, it's really weird.

We've lost some bits. Yeah, yeah, we've lost a lot. Oh, fuck me. Where's that then? It's nowhere. It just disappeared. Yeah, it's nowhere. Exactly.

It's just dissipated. Right. I mean, the internet, let me put it out... This is what annoys me about, quantum physics, it overturns all the things I held sacred in science. Yeah, exactly. It's counterintuitive. Which is what's wonderful.

That's what you should love it. You should love it because nothing's sacred. But I mean, I mean from like Newton's laws to relativity, which I had down. Well, no, but they're not wrong. The great thing about science is, no, they were. They're just contingent as opposed to what. But everything's contingent. But they're just out of interest.

This, okay. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fuck me. Where do I start? I know so little that I don't know what question to ask. That's how fucking frustrating this is for me. I haven't got the language to ask you the right question. So, yeah, so we can work together through the right questions. And the questions are the most important thing. Right. Is this metaphorical or literal? Okay. When you fire two electrons. Yeah. Uh-huh. Are they in two places at once? If you don't measure them, yes. Okay.

Okay, again, it's weird. If you observe it, no, now, again, is that a metaphor? No, no. Well, what is a metaphor is you're thinking of an electron as a little billiard ball. So the point is, the problem is that it's not really a little billion ball. And that's why, you know, there's this fact, there's this weird thing called quantum entanglement where if I do something to this electron, if I prepare two electrons in an initial, state, very special state, and I take one here and I move another one to Alpha Centauri,

and I do some of this one, instantaneously, not at the speed line, but instantaneously, I change the properties of that one, or at least I change what someone would measure of the properties of that one. And he say, hold on, that violates everything I love. But the problem is the mistake is that you think of it as two separate objects. In the quantum world, they were never separate once they were entangled. They're all, they're like, you know, it's like slapping you on this side of the face and your arm hurts over here. Yeah, so it's going out of one door that's coming in the other one of a...

That's one way of think about it. It's always a metaphor because there's no way. There's no sensible way to picture because we're, we grew up with these classical pictures. So there's no, and that's, I was just saying, it's interesting we're having this, I was having this discussion with the scientist, I think, maybe even on the podcast, but that the problem is that people talk about the interpretation of, quantum mechanics, that's entirely the wrong thing. Because the world is quantum mechanical.

Yeah. We live with this approximation. I forget that. Yeah, it's like determinism. You can have it. It doesn't change anything because we have a illusion of free will and we got to worry about murderers and living and dying and cancer. Yeah.

So we have this illusion. So why should we try and explain the real world in terms of the solution? We should try and explain the illusion in terms of the real world. Great. Okay. That really helps. Oh. That's amazing.

I can do that. Okay. I can do that. Right. Yeah. I just never think about it again. And I'll sleep at night. There we go.

What's great about this podcast is that people who tuned in for you can fast forward to this bit. And people who tuned to me can stop before we got onto this. Exactly. That's right. What's the jokes? But you don't understand for me it's even better. It's even better. Because they'll say, why the fuck is Ricky Jervais thinking this is interesting?

If he thinks it's interesting, maybe I should think it's interesting. I don't care about Lawrence Krause, but I like Ricky Jervais. So maybe if he thinks it's interesting, there's a reason to be. interested in it. Trust me. That's not going to happen. They're going to say, who does he think he is? He's making a fool of himself. No, no. By asking questions, that's the bravest thing anyone could do. No, no, no, it's great. So, and I will have this conversation. So, this is no metaphor. There was, there was nothing, literally nothing, right? Where was it, though? If there was no time and there was no space and there was nothing, where was it? Nowhere. And where's that?

That's the point. It's not good language. So this is what blew my mind about all the things in the universe and more. That's a new one. Fuck me. I've got that to worry about now. Yeah, now there's many more universes. Yeah, that's another thing to worry about. So is that the nature of infinity or is that literal? But it's probable. It's probable that there may, that it's quite likely that they're, well, it's quite likely. And that's all we can ever say, it's quite likely or not likely. We can't say it is. That there could be. That there could be an infinite number of universes or our universe could survive an infinitely long time. But why don't you say, and that's the case, why don't you say that this universe that's 30 and

up and years old is the second or third or the hundredth or the millionth? Well, first of all, we don't know. And secondly, if there's an infinite number, then how do you order them? Oh yeah, because time. Yeah. Yeah. But what's weird is, it's a man-made structure, dudes, just forget it. But what's real, what bothers people and it bothers a lot of scientists. Is that our universe had a beginning. We do know that. Only because we're going backwards.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that's on our time frame. That's on our concept of time. I know, but it's really weird. But people don't like the fact that our universe had a beginning, but it may go on for an infinitely long time. And so why did it have a beginning when it had a beginning?

And the answer is, you know, it just happened. But there, but I get that. I'm happy with that as well. But actually, it makes it easier for me. It may not be true. But how can there be another one? Well, that's the point. If the universe takes up all the space there is.

I know it's expanding into nothing. No, no, it's not expanding into anything. No, if I blow up a balloon, yeah, and I put dots on it. Yeah. And sure, if I put it in an extra dimension, it's expanding into the room. But if I just consider the two-dimensional surface of the balloon, it's just getting bigger. It's not expanding into anything. Okay, yeah.

And so if you imagine our universe is like the two-dimensional surface of the balloon, or just better still, take a rubber bed sheet and make it infly big. You know, you're infly rich. You have an infly big bed. and stretch it. It's not expanding in anything. You're playing with language there. Of course I am, but that's the only thing I can play with you

because we don't know doing mathematics. But this makes me think that the term infinity is meaningless now. Well, no, it is very, it is meaningless in a sense. He's going to get frustrated for me. No, no, no. I'm going to give you an example. I've never thought I do in this program.

Ben, this guy Hilbert was a very famous mathematician. He invented this paradox showing that infinity is kind of meaningless, when you think of the language. It's, we call it Hilbert's Hotel. You're gonna, this is gonna blow your mind. Okay, so you go, let's say you're going in Las Vegas to an infinitely big hotel, okay?

And you go in and, and you said like a room, and they say, well, all the rooms are full. And it goes, oh, okay, I'll go somewhere. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is an infly big hotel. We can fit you in. How? Well, I'll take a person from room number one,

put them in room number two, person from number two, put them in number three, three and four. And I do that, and now room number one's empty. I don't know with this tight, because I've got an appointment. Yeah, that's a problem. Exactly. Well, you'd get them all do it at the same time.

But even that's hard. So, okay. I just sleep in the lobby. Cheers. No, but hold on. I'm going to make it even worse. Say you go in with a Catholic family, an infinitely big family.

Yeah. And you say, I've got a room for my infinitely big family. And they go, oh, they're awful. No, no, we can fit you in. How? I take person from number one, put them in room number two. From number two to room number four. Room number three to room number six.

rumor four and number eight. Now only the even numbers are occupied and all the odd numbers are free so you can fit in your family. Infinity has... That used to be... I didn't hear that, but that used to my favorite fact

to blow if it was mine, that there was many even numbers as even odd numbers put together. Yeah, exactly, because infinity is a very subtle concept. And mathematicians have a way of dealing with that, but if you don't deal with it carefully, you arrive in nonsense.

Well, infinity is a concept, though. Infinity is only a concept. Well, interesting. Interesting. Interesting question. Physicists don't like infinities. Well, no, because there's nothing physical. Well, but what if space is infinitely big?

Well, what if? What if? I thought we're going to solve it. We're trying to, but we have to admit that possibility. But affinity has to be a concept. Well, all things are concept. There's no more concept-y concept than infinity. Well, but, but, yes, sir.

Because there's no example of it. Because you have to, because you can't, you can't, you can't tell me a number that's even getting close. No, but I can tell, but I know, I know it in concept. I've just had one. No, but the number one is a concept. But it's a concept you can say, well, I see one of these, but that's just a manifestation. Yeah, we can...

But mathematicians have figured out ways... No, but mathematicians have figured out ways to work with infinity as a number or different kinds of infinity in ways that gives sensible results. So as a numerical concept, it's as no... It's some sense.

It's as well defined as a million or a billion or a billion. It's just weirder, a lot weirder. So basically you're laying out the possibilities to work backwards. So you've got all the possibilities laid out. Yeah. And one of them's true. And one of them's true for us.

Yeah. And that's what's really, I mean, and physicists have been talking about this recently. If there are an infinite number of universes, which we think is quite likely. Yeah. That blows my mind. An infinite amount of, again. No, but then it's even worse. Okay.

Or even if our universe persists for an infinite number of long time. But let's take an infinite number of universes. There's a universe in which. in which we're having this conversation, but you're telling me the physics and I'm telling you the jokes. And moreover, but there's an infinite number of universes when this conversation is exactly the same

except for one word. Or there's an infinite universe that's exactly same. I get that. But it's so weird. Yeah, but it's only a concept. Just like... But what if it doesn't mean anything? Well, it doesn't mean anything.

We'll never know about it. Because we live in one universe. Because when we know the nature and the possibility of space and time and infinity, those words don't mean anything anymore in a normal sentence because you're using them in the way that I know them and accept them in this world but they're not true anymore well that's you hit them the key point and

this is why people get so upset when I wrote a universe from nothing especially religious people because I point out that science has shown that nothing isn't what people once thought it was it's the word it means something very different we change the meaning of nothing just like we changed the meaning of something and they say but you're not allowed to change the meaning just like we changed the nature of time when we found out that the speed of light was a constant and distance has to be okay. But if it's some aroused, they could say, hold on, you're not allowed to change what we mean by nothing. And I say, I call that learning.

Okay. I don't, because it's not helped me. Right. No, no. But here, the point is that as I described in that book, there are many different kinds of nothing. There's a nothing of the Bible, which is sort of an infinite empty void. There's space there, but there's nothing in it. But that's not nothing because the space is there.

So what if you get rid of the space? Right. So you have to be very careful. And physics has shown that space can pop in and out of existence like anything else. Well, this is what I can't get around because I can't get over. I can't get over my definition of the concept. That I can't imagine there being nothing around this atom to expand into. Because I think we make it clear to anyone who's even less along the line than me and I'm nowhere.

No, no. But you don't mean a vacuum. No, no. You mean there isn't anything. There's not a vacuum even, don't you? No, no, no. Well, a vacuum, for some people, a vacuum is nothing, but I would argue that's definitely not nothing

because there's a lot of stuff there. Of course. So you actually, even that, even throw away, there's a lot of stuff in the vacuum. There's a lot of fucking stuff in here. And they're wearing a vacuum is shitloads of stuff here. Well, no, let me give you the big point. I mean, we've learned that the universe,

the dominant stuff in the universe is nothing. Yeah, I get that. Empty space, you get rid, take a piece of space, get rid of everything in it, it still weighs something. And we don't have the slightest understanding of why. It's still waste something. How do you weigh it? What? Gravity.

So that's what... It all comes down to gravity. It all comes down to gravity. What is gravity? It's a force that... Is it... Is it lit... See, again, I thought it was attraction that matters.

Yeah, I know. Well, I thought that gravity was a force created by matter. And that's what we used to think. And that's what Newton would say. Rubbish now, is it? Well, no, it's never rubbish. That's one of the big misunderstandings of science.

That's so 2017. Yeah, exactly. But no. But unlike... Loll. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, he still believes that

that's great. I think he's created by my own interaction law. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay. You're big funny Hibon. Me against nothing. That up. No, but unlike culture,

science doesn't, what does, things don't become passe. So that Newton is just as true now as it was then. If you want to hit a baseball or launch a cannonball or take a rocket ship and go to go to the moon, Newton works. That's the point. Scientific revolutions don't do away with...

Because it's our world and all the... Yeah, that's a contingent... But whatever we learn about the universe, at the weirdest skills, it's never going to change the thing. I'm never going to have a ball. Whatever I learn about quantum physics, I'm never going to have a ball here and say, I let it go, it's going to fall up.

It's always going to, no matter what we learn, the law that says it's going to fall down, it's always going to be true. So why don't I just... Why don't I just call these concepts and these possibilities, right, that don't interfere with our contingent laws and it gets the space and go, Why don't I just call them God?

You can, but you know the reason you're doing it? It's because you don't want to think. Well, yeah, I'm using God for the gaps. Exactly. God is just for many people. They're terrified concepts. If you're playing with concepts, why can't I just say God? Because.

And I just mean all the things you said. Yeah, you can say that. But that basically says, well, then I give up trying to ever explain or understand. Because there's lots of things I don't understand about the... I do. My head hurts. I never thought of you as a religious person until now. Well, you've made me believe in God.

My life is complete. I've been getting this program, you weren't religious, and now you are. I think that's a good way to end it. I've converted you. Peace be with you. Okay, save me. Cheers. Thanks.

That was great. Hi, it's Lawrence again. As the Origins podcast continues to reach millions of people around the world, I just wanted to say thank you. It's because of you. your support, whether you listen or watch, that we're able to help enrich the perspective of listeners by providing access to the people and ideas that are changing our understanding of ourselves and our world and driving the future of our society in the 21st century.

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