The Paikin Podcast - Bob Rae: Wildfire Politics, UK Chaos, and Billy Bishop

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Ontario’s 21st premier and Canada’s former ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae, joins Steve for one of their monthly chats to discuss the federal government saying no to expanding Billy Bishop Airport on Toronto’s waterfront, the fallout between PM Carney and Ontario Premier Doug Ford, the wildfires in Canada and Europe, whether the Liberal government has decided national unity is more important than climate change, and whether Canadian voters still give a damn about climate change. They also discuss British politics, Andy Burnham becoming the seventh British PM in ten years, Nigel Farage’s resignation and by-election “stunt,” and the legacy of Lindsey Graham. Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcast Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznCIUEA11lZGcNIM4h?si=b5d73bc7c3a041b7X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social Email us at: [e-mail]  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi, everybody, Steve Paken here. We are happy to present what is becoming one of our most popular regular features, and that is our monthly visits by Ontario's 21st Premier and our former ambassador to the United Nations Bob Ray. So much to discuss on this show. The feds have said no to expanding Billy Bishop Airport on Toronto's waterfront. Fires are still burning out of control, making some of North America's biggest cities look apocalyptic for days on end.

And Great Britain has yet another new prime minister. all of that and more coming right up one-on-one with bob ray on the pagan podcast happy to welcome back the visitor of the university of toronto's massy college the matthews fellow at queen's university professor at victoria university in the university of toronto we could take all the time saying this man's titles but let's get right to it there's bob ray what part of the world do we find you in this month mr ray i am on a lake near portland ontario just uh in the eastern part of the province near the log embassy in which you were raised? Very right next door, actually.

There we go. That's just, for those who don't know, that's just a little cute reference you often make to the fact that your father was a diplomat and you lived in some pretty nice places around the world. But anyway, let's start with the Billy Bishop decision by the federal government because they have made a decision. And the reason I very much want to get your take on this is that you, of course, used to be the member of parliament for Toronto Center, which is right near this airport. So my hunch is you've been close to this issue, and I want to know whether you think the feds made the right decision not to go with the big expansion that the Premier of Ontario wanted. Absolutely. I think they made the right decision. I think given the somewhat impulsive nature of the project, that I think is extremely ambitious as it was presented to people without a lot of forward planning about what this would mean for housing. and for density generally and for just the state of the waterfront overall, it clearly requires a much different approach than the one that was taken by the Premier.

And I'm glad the federal government said no. But I think it's also, we have to be clear about what some of the challenges are going ahead because it's not the end of the story until the Premier and the City of Toronto and everybody and the federal government agree on what is the future of the island airport going to be. Because the argument that we're getting from Porter, the main company that uses the airport and their supporters, is that without an expansionary plan, the status quo is unsustainable. So that means that we also have an additional wrinkle,

which is the $750 million that J.P. Morgan capital put into the into purchasing the island airport. And that's really what I think has contributed to the impulse to get ahead with it because they wouldn't have paid that kind of money for a tiny little commuter airport that's only flying people relatively close by. So I think this is a significant step the feds have taken. But I also think there's a whole lot more to this story that's going to come. Now, that's going to be the real battle, because basically we have to decide whether we really want to have the island airport, and if so, in what form does it become commercially viable? And I think that's where there has to

be a lot of discussion about how we go forward. Well, let's follow up on that, because I wonder how much of a Pyrrhic victory, if at all, this is for the folks who feel quite victorious right now, because the feds have said, look, to bring Billy Bishop up to safety standards, we are going to have to make the runway much longer, which presumably will affect some of what's going on down there right now. So in your view, a victory today, but a victory in the long run for those who didn't want expansion? Well, I think there are two camps to the people who don't want expansion. There are people who are quite happy with the status quo. And there are people who don't want any airport at all there, except for maybe emergency runway for or search and rescue and so on.

And that, it seems to me, all has to be brought together. We're kind of, everybody's not telling the full story. So if we have an extension of the runway, we then have to fill in and I have to build out the island more to extend the runway so that it can be in keeping with safety standards. If that's the case, then I think everybody needs to know. As soon as that extension is finished, the battle will resume. And I think that's where there's a little bit of lack of clarity. So there was, I think, a huge kind of sigh of relief and greeting the decision of the federal government. But when you read through the lines of what the Minister of Transport actually said, he didn't say there never will be an expansion of this size or that it's incompatible with the other uses of the island, the waterfront, housing, other plans for density in the area.

He didn't say any of that. And so I still think there's an incoherence at best to where we now sit. But yes, we bought ourselves some summer relief from a sense of a truck out of control being driven by the Fort government, which to me always looks a little bit like a truck out of control. But that's just my take at the moment. That's just you. That's just you. And we'll be back right after this. Well, let me get you to take off your hat as the former member of parliament for around that area and put on your hat of being a former Premier of Ontario.

when you wanted something big out of the federal government back in the day, we're going back 35, 36 years now, and they didn't do it for you. And in fact, you know, this is a big, this will come as a huge disappointment to Premier Ford. What does that do to the relationship between the premier of the country's biggest province and the prime minister of the country? Well, I don't think that's the Ford government's only problem. I think the fact is that you have a government that is tremendously unpopular at the moment. And we can all debate what the reasons for that are, but the polling is pretty consistent. And then the question of, well, what's the strategy? And if the strategy is just to try to blame the feds, the problem with that is that the feds are riding high at the moment.

And there's not a lot of advantage to that. Plus, the government is economically and financially vulnerable. It's got very high rates of youth unemployment. It's got enormous challenges in some of our key industries. So there's not much to advantage to taking on the federal government because nobody is blaming the feds for anything at the moment. Their level of approval is frankly astonishing, given the length of time they've been in power. Now, we all know these things are fleeting and evaporating. but if Doug Ford were to say I'm just going to pick a fight with the feds,

I think he'd end up losing that one as well at the present moment. Do you think Mark Carney, though, as the prime minister who presumably made the decision not to give Doug Ford what he wants, do you think he feels an obligation to make it up to Doug Ford in another way? That's possible. Who knows what that might be? I mean, I think the federal government is doing everything. it can to keep the country united. I don't think this was a flip decision by the feds. I think they said,

you know, no, we're not going to go ahead with this. But I think there's a large sense in the inside the province that it's just a matter of time before this comes back on the table. And Doug Ford has by no means abandoned his plans. And I think even he in his quiet moments would admit that, you know, just saying we're going to go ahead with this and we want everybody else to join us is not entirely realistic because of the unpopularity of the project, but also because there are many, many questions about its feasibility, which have still not been answered. And we'll be back right after this.

Welcome back to Gloves Off Season 2, eight brand new episodes about the threat to Canada's sovereignty and how middle powers can thrive in the new world disorder. I'm Stephen Marsh. Last season, the show was about surviving. Since then, Canada has emerged as a prominent global force. And that's why the question this season is what cards do we hold and how do we win? The gloves come off on Canada Day, July 1st.

Get it wherever you get your podcasts and watch on YouTube. All right, let me move on to our second chapter for discussion here, which is climate change. And I'm hoping that you can connect for us a whole bunch of digital. different things that have happened over the past year since Mark Carney and his liberal government took over. Here's what's on my list. The federal government repealed the previous liberal government's consumer carbon tax. The federal government has very much encouraged the development of the oil sands in Alberta. The prime minister has acknowledged that his policies will lead to higher greenhouse gas emissions than had been forecast under his predecessor. There are, I think at last look,

almost 900 out-of-control fires in Canada that are affecting the air that millions of people breathe in big cities around North America. And it has been a long time since we heard much talk at all about the importance of doing something on climate change. Okay, take all of those disparate actions and put it into perspective for us and give us your sense about how much the country gives a damn about climate change these days. Well, I actually think the country does. And I think the prime minister must know that. So no government can afford to be cavalier about climate change because the impacts of it are all around us all the time. The other fact, though, that I think has to be kind of embraced as difficult as it is for Canadians,

is that whatever we do, our emissions are not actually decisive in whether or not a fire breaks out in northern Ontario. The fires are caused by a variety of things, but certainly one of them is the context in which all these fires are happening is a continuous warming of the planet. drier, dry seasons and wet or wet seasons, and all of the other things that to climate scientists are telling us is going to happen. Where I think the federal government needs to respond to the current situation is by really saying we have to understand what the consequences of a warmer planet are. And we have to understand in particular how we are affected as a country. What is the impact in particular on Canada? And it's very clear that people living in more remote communities are dramatically impacted.

Are people living in large communities? We are affected by poor air quality, more challenges in really warm weather for the most vulnerable people. And I think that's missing at the moment. I think they're missing a link here. I think that the feds have announced an electrification strategy. I heard the Minister of Natural Resources say the other day that he and the government are very committed to meeting our targets in 2050. But Steve, that's nearly over 20 years from now. And you've got to have a strategy for, well, how about next summer?

How about saying there's some things we're going to start to do that we think will have an impact not in reducing emissions? Because global emissions are on the rise still. We still haven't turned the corner with global emissions. But right now, we're on a steady path, and sometimes the impact is very dramatic. In Europe, the same week we're experiencing this in Ontario, the city of Bordeaux is directly under assault from a forest fire. and the city of Madrid is directly under fire from what's happening in terms of the fires in the region. So this is not a uniquely Canadian problem, but the government of Canada needs to have a solution that says, okay, we are making the decisions we're making because we feel these are economically

essential for us at the present time. We're sorry it's going to have an impact on emissions. But they've got to have another plan that deals with this question of how do we help communities adapt and how do we protect the health of people who are living in the way of danger? And how are we going to deal particularly with indigenous and other remote communities that are very directly impacted in a way that I think anybody living in the rest of the country would say that's just not on. We've got to do more to protect people. we've got to do more to make sure we are engaging in some forest management practices, which will reduce the impact. And I'm not the expert, but I do agree with the indigenous leaders when they say,

we need a public inquiry. My only comment would be we need an inquiry that doesn't just deal with who's screwed up, which is the easy sort of thing that people want to see happen when it comes to accountability. But it's more than that. It's what is the plan that the cities and provincial governments and federal governments have to follow to allow us to adapt to the level of crisis that we're clearly facing? This is not a, I mean, Doug, you know, the premier says, well, we, you know, we, we, we, we, we, we, we declared an emergency right away and we've, we've got our emergency response teams. You say, yeah, but an emergency is not something that should happen with great regularity, every single. summer. And now what we're seeing is that it is actually a threat every summer, and it does have an

impact on the geographic majority of the province. It's not the population majority, but physically it is the majority of the province. And it's something we have to deal with. You mentioned this is not a uniquely Canadian problem, and of course gave those examples from France and Spain. But perhaps what is uniquely Canadian about this is that the climate change issue has got wrapped up in the national unity of the country issue. And does it seem apparent to you that Mark Carney has decided that national unity and doing well by Alberta is more important than trying to find a national, workable, I mean, all of the things you just said, a climate change policy that really is far-reaching and far-sighted? Does it look that way to you? A little bit in your thinking,

though, is the fact that if we had a serious climate change plan, which we don't have, if we had such a plan, that that would have a direct linear impact on Canada's climate. And what I'm trying to say is, I keep repeating these points, Canada's climate is not unique to Canada. Global warming is called global warming because it's global. It's a planetary issue. the increase in coal emissions in China have far more impact directly on the current wave of increases in emissions than anything that Canada does. That's true, but they're also leading the world in renewables. They are leading the world in renewables, but what I'm saying is, I agree with that,

what I'm saying is we need to understand that whatever we do on the climate change side of the agenda, there is currently a climate adaptation, climate change adaptation crisis, which everybody should be able to say, yeah, we agree with that. And some people will say, and it's the fault of Mark Carney, which isn't true. He shares the responsibility with a lot of other people, but the fact that there is a global failure to address climate change, which there is, is a huge problem. But while that's ongoing, we have to recognize that we have a climate adaptation problem that we have to deal with right away. And that is going to require an investment on the part of all Canadians, their governments and everybody else, to help us get through what is now our present

and our future. This is our present and our future. This is not some one-on. This is not an anomaly. This is the world we're living in. This is the world Canada is in. This is the environment we're in. And this increases our responsibility to have, at the very least, to have an adaptation plan. We should have an emissions plan. And the government says we do long term.

But every long term step, every long term issue starts with the short step. And right now we're missing the short steps on a minimum. missions, definitely. And so are our neighbors to the South big time because they're denying climate science. They're denying the existence of climate change. And, you know, Mr. Trump is saying, if only Canada had a better vacuum cleaner to deal with the problem of, you know, what's on the floor of the forest, we'd be fine. Well, that's just, you know, utter idiocy. But we need to have an approach that is actually based on science. And that, I think, requires us to have an adaptation plan worthy of the name. And right now, we don't really have it. And I think that's

essential. One last question on this. And that is, when you heard Donald Trump say, I'm putting new tariffs on Canada because the forest fires are their fault and it's ruining our cities, what's the first thing that went through your mind? Well, I'm not sure it's repeatable on the family podcast. This is just nonsense. But it's dangerous nonsense because he'll use any excuse to increase tariffs. I mean, the guy's crazy on tariffs. It's just nuts. These are imposing a huge burden on his own population.

They're enormously unpopular with the American people. These are just completely wrongheaded decisions. But what I had to say was an expletive of another kind. which you're welcome to share with us if you want to but i'm not forcing you to i do not feel that that's that that's not me in my best sense and i always try to i always try to be a better me when i'm on your on your on your on your on your show and well don't don't try so hard you know i don't mind the worst you coming out every now and then in fact janice stein was on this show last week and she dropped the f bomb quoting somebody else of course but um she she was at the nato meeting in turkey

and somebody dropped the F-bomb and she quoted them exactly. So all of which is to say it's a family show, but feel free to deep dive into your inner self if you want to get medieval from time to time. Let's move overseas now, and I want to, again, take advantage of another part of the world in which you have lived. You were living in the United Kingdom in the 1970s

when you were a Rhodes Scholar, and you know that country well, and you follow the politics of that country, and they have just sworn in remarkable. I mean, I can't even believe I'm saying this out loud. they've just sworn in their seventh prime minister of the last 10 years. For people who haven't followed this all that carefully, I mean, that's extraordinary. But broadly speaking, why is that happening?

Well, I just preface my remarks by saying that Arlene always used to say when I was interim leader of the liberal party, she used to say, don't worry about it. Everybody's an interim leader. She's right about that. She's right about a whole lot of things. In a word, I think the problem is Brexit. I think Brexit, yes. Oh, yeah.

And I'm not just saying it out of spite. I think if you look at the numbers, I think the numbers in the UK are appalling when it comes to, you know, just the lack of economic growth, the challenge that they've had in getting out of this, you know, profound economic doldrums that they're in. And Brexit, I think, remains one of the big own goals in public policy. It was just a stupid decision that some idea came over people and not a big, not a huge, not a huge majority, very closely fought referendum. And they'd end up leaving the economic partner they desperately needed. and that sense of being together that was absolutely essential for their economic future.

Former Secretary of State Dean Acheson once said famously that, you know, Britain has lost its empire and is still looking for a role. And I think that's right. I think they're still looking for a role. I think they're still trying to figure out there's all this romance about empire,

about the Commonwealth, about all kinds of things. that actually don't produce a lot of income for them and don't really solve the problem. They need neighbors. They need steady, strong, better integration into that market and they blew it. They completely blew it.

And as a result of that decision and a number of other cockamamie decisions that various leaders of their country, of the Tory party have taken, they have ended up where they are. And so it's very, very, very difficult for the political leaders to deliver on what it is people want to see. And, you know, Kirstarmer's demise is just the latest in a long string of leaders, as you

describe them. And it's really too bad. And getting back with Europe is not going to be a one-step dance. take to hide, but there are ways in which that relationship can be significantly improved. I think Mr. Burnham gets it. Mr. Burnham is, from my perspective, I don't know him. I've never met him. But unlike a lot of the other people that we've seen, he is a politician who's not afraid to say, I'm a politician.

And Britain needs somebody right now who can make practical decisions, who can be pragmatic, and yet popular. He has a way of engaging with the public. He was a very successful leader of his community in Manchester. I hope he can help turn it around because for the sake of the whole country, we need to avoid a Nigel Farage victory in the next general election.

Right now, the Farage Easts are in the lead. But I don't consider their win at all, inevitable, it's entirely a function of the degree to which the UK can make some sensible, tough decisions with and stick to them and that they can have the kind of possibilities that I think make so much more sense than what has taken place. Sorry, going to come back to Nigel Farage in just a second, but one more thing on Andy Burnham, maybe a couple of more things on the new prime minister. He had a great line the day that he was being sworn in.

He said, we want to change politics to make it more about problem solving than point scoring. Given the realities of politics today, do you think that's even possible? I do. I think it's difficult because I think we all fall prey. I say we. I'm afraid, Steve, no matter how much medication I take. You're always going to be a recovering politician.

I'm always going to be a recovering politician. It's just something I can't help. So I say we, I mean, those of us who've been in politics for a long time, the temptation to point fingers and to ascribe blame is huge. But we were talking about climate change earlier. I think this is, we need to look at the adaptation issue as a problem to be solved rather than a finger to be pointed. And that I think is key.

And I think that's why I think the prime minister should do something like an inquiry in that situation. But it's not impossible. In fact, the mood about politics can change. We've seen it in Canada. I mean, the mood in our own politics has changed substantially as a result of the style and the way in which the prime minister has decided to govern. He doesn't spend a lot of his time pointing fingers at the opposition. He doesn't spend a lot of his time blaming other people for the problem. He just says, we've got some problems and let's try to deal with them. And let's see if we can't do it better. And I think people genuinely, deeply appreciate that approach. And the more he can deliver on that approach, the better off he'll be. And I think the same is true for Andy Burnham.

You did explain what you thought he had going for him. What challenge, as you look at his inbox right now, seems pretty insurmountable for the new prime minister? Well, I mean, again, you're trying to talk it down insurmountable? No, I think he has to do, I think one of the keys to, effective political leadership is to define the challenges in such a way that they can be resolved. In other words, if you take the advice of the journalist community and see perfection as your standard, and every time you fall short of perfection, you've failed, well, then you're going to fail. But if you say, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to define success in what I think are achievable terms, and I'm going to do everything

I can to meet them, then you succeed. And one of the problems of our political culture and frame is that everybody's looking for perfection, and you're not going to find it. And we don't find it in journalism. We don't find it anywhere. But a lot of the standards to which people are held are the standards of perfection, which is ridiculous. So we shouldn't, as politicians, we shouldn't be playing that game. We should be saying, no, no, let's try to find out how can we make this better, and how can we improve it, and how can we make some practical steps going forward? And actually, I think as municipal politicians, you learn that very quickly because the problems are so immediate and all around you that you kind of have to define them quickly or you're

out of office very fast. And I think that's something that Andy Burnham will have going for them. Brian Maruni always used to say, don't compare me to the Almighty. me to the alternative. Always like that line. Yeah. Well, he's not wrong. But again, that's sort of playing the point fingers game a little bit because it's not about, you know, saying I'm good because the other guy sucks, which is sometimes easy, sometimes difficult. But it is about saying to people, you know, we need to reduce the level of unemployment as quickly as we can. And we need to find the most practical ways to do that. And going back to the master of what I would call the master of liberal democratic politics, Franklin Roosevelt, he understood very, very well that if

something wasn't working, you stopped doing it, you start doing something else. And he used to say, that's what I do. We try something. If that doesn't work, we'll try something else. And people would say, he's a man without principles. You say, no, his principles are clear. He's a man who understands that the means are just the means. You try to find something. and if it's wrong, you change it. The problem with a decision like Brexit is, no, no, no, no. This is a world-defining decision that affects all of the future of your economy. And the reason I keep mentioning Brexit is because I feel very much that Trump doesn't get it.

I mean, he's a follower of the same group of people who brought Brexit. to the United Kingdom, they're all still huge fans of Donald Trump. Well, everything those guys have ever tried has failed. It has failed miserably to work. And that's why I think that, you know, an effective politician dealing with Nigel Farage can make mincemeat of him because he's got nothing going that makes any sense. His policy prescriptions are, have shown to be disastrous. And there's all kinds of other issues around them. So I think, that with an effective politician who knows he has to fight for his survival, I think Mr. Burnham's going to be very effective. I hear what you're saying about Nigel Farage, who's the leader,

of course, of the Reform Party and was instrumental in getting Britain out of the European community. One of the things that he's been involved in lately is resigning his seat because he got nailed on a corruption scandal, and he simply said, I'm resigning, we'll have a by-election, I'm going to run for my seat again, and the public will presumably endorse me, and then that makes it all go away. I mean, you may not like his politics, and you may not like what positions he holds, but he's in first place in the polls right now. So how do you explain all that? Well, I can think through my own political life. I've seen a lot of people who I thought were complete phonies doing well in the polls for a while.

So I don't get the point is not to count heads. The point is to turn heads. And I think that's something that Mr. Burnham will be able to do. I also think that the Farage thing is a total stunt. It's a waste of public money. I think everybody knows it. And maybe the guy who poses as a machine will actually win. Maybe the robot will take this one.

I've no idea. We'll be back to the show in just a second. But first, this message. This summer, protect your home against wildfire. Cut the grass around your house, prune trees to create a two-meter gap above the ground, clear leaves and debris from your gutters. Consider installing a fire-resistant Class A roof. One more safeguard, insurance.

Because the world doesn't work without insurance. And insurance works best with an insurance broker. A message from the Insurance Brokers Association of Canada. And for more information, go to this website, the big if.ca. That's the bigif.ca. And now, back to the show. All right, let's move to Chapter 4 here.

and this is a part of our discussion, which I like to call odds and ends. And one of the things that I kind of like about it is that I don't give you a heads up on any of this stuff. This is just stuff that's happened over the last month that I want to get your take on. And let's see how it goes. Lindsay Graham died, 71 years old, one of the most influential senators in the American Senate over the last many, many years from South Carolina, a Trump whisperer in some ways. A couple of questions here. Have you ever met him? No. Okay. Never wanted to.

Well, that gets to the second question, because I wonder if you could offer an opinion on his approach to politics, which essentially was, I'm going to make a deal with the devil. On numerous occasions, he expressed his disgust for Donald Trump, but then he would always change his mind and get back into the Trump fold and be welcomed back into the inner circle. As a general approach to politics, what did you think of that? doomed to failure. I mean, it's one thing to make a deal with the devil and get and have something to show for it. But if you go back to Lindsey Graham's career, I mean, he, together with John McCain was a very strong supporter of NATO. He was a very strong supporter of taking stronger action against the Russians, Soviets, the Chinese. He believed firmly in a sensible approach to public policy issues.

But he was also on the right when it came to others. That's all well and good. But when you look at what he actually achieved by, if you'll pardon the expression, sucking up to Donald Trump, he got nothing. He got nothing on Ukraine, nothing at all. the betrayal of Ukraine never changed. And any sensible politician would have seen that and would have said, okay, I'm going to take him on in the Senate and I'm going to beat him. And he didn't do that because he didn't have the guts to do it.

And he actually didn't want to deeply offend Trump because I think he felt that, you know, he needed to placate him. And that Trump was a very dangerous enemy to have. and he didn't want to have an enemy like Trump. So I ultimately think that not only did Lindsey Graham betray his principles insofar as he had them, but he also proved to be utterly ineffectual and lost credibility on all sides. Well, I think he was afraid of being primaried by the president, and the president has a pretty good track record of whoever he backs in the primary, tends to win. But the other thing he used to say was, I'm in the room. You may not like my hypocrisy,

but I'm in the room with the deciders. Is that a good tradeoff? So what? I mean, if we could all, if we all sucked up hard enough, we could all be in the room with Donald Trump, but frankly, who wants to be? Because it's not a room that lends itself to good decisions, no matter how, how you try to affect them. So I think the notion somehow that, you know, that he had great influence as a result of his loyalty to Trump is absolute nonsense. Okay. Second question is also about U.S. politics, and I tread delicately here because I realize I'm asking this question of a man who's about to turn, I think, 78 years old pretty soon. Is that right? My birthday is on August 2nd. You can send your presence that always accepted. Steve, you know that very well. Yes, indeed. I am turning. I will turning 78.

Congratulations in advance. I asked this question because, Ed Markey from Massachusetts, who's also a senator there, has been for a long time, just turned 80 a few weeks ago, and he is running for another six-year term in November. And he's being challenged by somebody in his own Democratic Party, who's in his 40s, who says 80 is too old to run for a new six-year term in the Senate. What do you think? I agree with them. I mean, I don't agree. I mean, I've turned down the opportunity to do. several jobs

in the last few months a year. Oh, do tell. Like what? I'm not going to tell you. That would have required me to be able to say with confidence that I'm positive that I'm going to be

in perfect health and able to carry on well into my 80s. And I may be. I don't know. I feel fine now. If somebody gives me a short-term assignment, I'll say, fine, I can think I can do that. But if somebody were to say this is a hard, full-time job that requires an incredible expenditure of time and energy, are you willing to do it for the next decade? I would say, no. And I don't think, frankly, I don't think people should be asked to do it. I mean, it's up to the individual. I mean, the people of Massachusetts will decide.

and they'll come to a conclusion. But I actually do believe that while ageism is wrong, and I had a bit of an argument with Paul Wells, when he criticized my appointment to the UN, he said I was too old, and I took off after him. And he's never apologized, but he did recognize at the end of my term in New York that I'd done an okay job, which for Paul Wells' is huge praise by the way. way like that's just grudging respect like he's gone way out of his thing but no i mean i i i do think there you know the clock is ticking and mortality is a real thing and the decline of health is a real thing and i think uh all of us who are getting older should say yeah i mean if the you know

if i get asked for an opinion by somebody i'll give it to them and i always have to be aware that I'm speaking from a different perspective that perhaps a younger person would bring, but also with a, I hope, a level of sort of awareness and knowledge that's helpful. But, I mean, we become physically frailer and we become mentally a little less alert. And I think that's just a fact of life. Somebody, not you, but somebody from your team will phone me one day and say, you know what, we're not going to do any more of these shows because you're, you know, we've noticed you're slipping a bit.

Want to make a bet? I think you've got a lot of years left in you, so I'm not worried about that phone call coming anytime soon. You may have self-interest in that judgment because we're all, even though your hair stays remarkably the same color, I mean, we're all subject to the frailties of aging. Well, let the record show I didn't become premier at 41, which would tell you. turn anybody's hair gray. That was you. I've just been in journalism my whole life, which is why I don't have too much gray so far. But I note the Prime Minister of Canada appointed a 79-year-old to be

Governor General on a five-year term. That's getting up there, don't you think? But she's, by all accounts, seems to be in good health and is vigorous and, you know, I guess I wonder, you know, how old's too old to get any of these jobs. The Senate's filled with octogenarians who clearly can't do the job anymore and yet still seem to run and win. The American Senate. I don't know. Yeah, the American Senate. Well, I think the lack of age limits on the American Senate and the American Supreme Court are terrible. I mean, I think people should. I mean, I think our system is quite sensible. 75. It could be, they could say it's now 80. That would be fine. You say, okay,

scientifically, you make it a scientific decision. You say fine. On the G.G, I'm sure she thought about it. I don't know. I'm sure she thought about it. She's a great. great person, a great friend of mine, and she absolutely can do the job. And I'm only saying that from my perspective, I would not want to assume a long-term active political job. And I don't think the GGs is such a job. I don't think it's an active political job. It's a different kind of job. It requires a lot of work and a lot of time and attention, but it's a different kind of job than kind of thing that's required being a member of the U.S. Senate. And I think there's a lot of people in the U.S. Senate who are just too, too old and not on the top of their game.

Right. Okay. We'll have one more word from Bob Ray in just a moment, but first we're going to do a little housekeeping here. Namely, I want to tell everybody that we love the fact that this is a free show. You're never going to have to pay for it. But there are expenses related to it. And we're always grateful when people want to throw a few shackles our way. they can do that at patreon.com forward slash the Paken podcast,

and we're grateful to everybody who chips in and send such lovely compliments as well about how they think we're doing. All of our previous shows are archived at stevepaken.com, and here's one last question for Bob Ray now. I can't remember if it was two or three months ago. You and I had a chat on this show about the fact that the Blue Jays didn't look particularly good, and I asked you whether you thought the season was over with, and you assured me it was not.

And here we are, whatever it is, two or three months, months later, and the team's still 10 games under 500, and they look like they're going nowhere. What's happened to the former American League champions? Because I know you follow this stuff. I, yeah, I do follow it. And my grandchildren and I watch a lot of the games up here at the cottage. I, it's sad. It's just that, I mean, there's no, there's no accounting for everything, right? I mean, there was the injury issue at the beginning. And then he really, realize that people come back from injuries are not quite the same. It takes them a little while longer to get into it. You know, you see so many of the best hitters aren't hitting that

well. And it's just... Yeah, what's happened to Vladdy? Well, Vladdy. I mean, Springer's not hitting as great as we'd all like. On the other hand, there's some new people coming up who are good. I still don't think it's statistically it's over if the Blue Jays could only, you know, take the imprint of the Red Sox and have a winning streak of 12 or 13 or 14 games. I'm glad you mentioned that. Yeah. That's an inspirational suggestion. And I got to say, I thought this was going to be one of the worst seasons ever to follow

the Red Sox. And then they whipped off 15 in a row. And I think as we said here taping this, they've won 20 of their last 22. So this is turning into just a memorable, wonderful season, regardless of how it ends. That's right. But I feel sad for all my Blue Jay friends. and I go to the games, of course, too, when I'm in the city. It's just, it's so sad to see what's happened to this team.

And by the time this airs, the trading deadline will probably have passed, and they'll probably be breaking up the team. So what a shame. Could be. But I think the key point is, I mean, I think if you've been a leader of the New Democratic Party for an extended period of time and of the Liberal Party when we were in, you know, the party was in its third place.

You know, in third place. People always say it's all over, right? Game over. I mean, I remember Peter Newman wrote an entire, its entire book was an obituary on the Liberal Party. Yep. And two years later, Justin Frito was prime minister.

So I guess I'm saying things change in a season. There's no momentum at the moment. And that I think is one of the things that's troubling. I think the hope was that we'd come out of the all our game and get some of that momentum back. And then because it is, the baseball is like a lot of things in life is a momentum play. And there's no momentum at the moment.

I mean, they beat the Red Sox 6-0 and they lost 6-1. I mean, it's like, come on, guys. But you can't blame anybody. It's just when all the bats go quiet at the same time. And we've had some great pitching, but just not, you know, not as good and consistent as it needs to be. I could go down the list. but it's easier to describe.

Remember once when the Blue Jays won the World Series twice, we had a big event for Cito Gasson and the team. You were a premier at the time. I was, and I introduced Cito to the crowd saying that he and I had the only two jobs in the province that every other person in the entire province believed they could do a better job on any given decision on any given day. That is so true. I don't give cheap advice to Schneider or anybody else.

They're doing the best they can. And let's hope it turns around. Well, apropos of our previous conversation, if they offered you a five-year contract to be the manager of the team, do you think you're too old or would you take the job? Well, that's a job I could do. Maybe start for three, three years and then Sibletown afterwards. That's terrific.

Perfect. Mr. Ray, as always, a pleasure to have you with us on the Paken podcast. We're going to give you August off and enjoy your time at the cottage. And then we'll see you again, God willing, in September. And in the meantime, peace and love, everybody, and we'll see you down the road. Yeah, I've got a new book coming out in September, so we can talk about that when it comes up. Let's definitely do that. Please have somebody send me a copy. I'd love to read that, and we'll chat about that for sure. You can actually, you can actually, I buy all your books. You should buy mine. Will it be coming to a bookstore on Manitoulin Island soon? If it does, I'll be happy to buy it. Coming out in the second week of September. Fantastic.

Consider it a date. Okay. Until next time.