The Paikin Podcast - Charlie Angus: “Gangster Fascism,” Canadian Unity, and NDP’s Future

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

Welcome to the first collaboration between The Paikin Podcast and Charlie Angus’s Meidas Canada. Steve and Charlie get into how we should understand this moment in history, how we are in a “new age of monsters,” and the rising authoritarian threat. They then discuss fears they have for the future of Canada, the two separatisms in Alberta and Quebec, whether Avi Lewis was the right choice for the NDP, where the NDP goes from here, and whether the left can build a durable populism that can rival right wing populism.  Subscribe to Meidas Canada’s YouTube Charlie Angus Substack Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcast Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznCIUEA11lZGcNIM4h?si=b5d73bc7c3a041b7X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social Email us at: [e-mail] 

Hello, Midas Canada viewers and resistors from all over. No, wait a second. That's not my line. That's not my line. No, no, my line is, hello, everybody. Welcome to the Paken podcast. I'm your host, Steve Paken. But we are trying something new today, and I ripped off.

Yes, I did. I ripped off the opening from Charlie Angus, the longtime member of parliament from Timmons James Bay, who is going to do a co-production. We on his podcast. He on my podcast. Charlie, it's great to see you again. How are you, my resistor friend?

Very good, Steve. And for all our Midas viewers all over, I'm sure if you're from Canada, you know Steve Paken. If you're watching from other places, you're going to know Steve Paken in the Paken podcast. Just before we get started, I just want to do some shoutouts to Cuban Girl in Alberta, Ginger Red Shoes in Kentucky, Annette in Idaho, Brian Taylor in Nova Scotia, Liz Rock, De La Belle Provence, and Jean, Jeannie in the UK and all others watching. We are going to have a great discussion today about democracy, about the state of the state of the state of the province, and the Belprovence, and Jean, and Jeaniney in the UK and all others watching. We are going to have a great discussion today about democracy, about the state of the state of the state of the state of the state of the state of the world and where the hell we are going. Now what's, okay, tell me what all that was. You are shouting out those folks because why? We, Steve, it's been amazing since we started the Midas Canada Network. You know, I mean, all my years, you and I go back a long way. I used to work for your show back in studio two days. Got to have the heart of a gambler to stake your fortune on mining.

That's the whole history of this town of Cobalt. This place has lived and almost died many times in the endless cycle of boom and bust. And even in all my years in Parliament, nobody ever really noticed anybody from Canada unless we were Neil Young or Mike Myers. But I think there's a real searching right now as we are in such on certain times. And people are watching Canada and people are listening to what's happening. So the Midas Canada viewership has developed a strong hold around the world. And it's what we're trying to do is build that conversation, a conversation. across borders, across the United States, across Europe, across Asia, about democracy.

And Canada, I think right now plays a role in it in a very significant way. Right on. And I have checked out your numbers, and they're terrific. So congratulations on what you've built here. And I should just say, you're quite right. I think I probably first met you more than 30 years ago when you were a contributing kind of documentary producer and filmmaker for TV Ontario, which is the provincial broadcaster in the province of Ontario in Canada. I was hosting a show called Studio 2.

This is public broadcasting in the province of Ontario. And you were a contributing filmmaker for that show. And I guess we first met there. And you were, of course, a hard-driving, hard-scrabble rock and roller at the same time. And, you know, we've stayed in touch over the years. Okay, let's talk about the state of global democracy today. And I guess we'll start broad and then we'll move in towards Canada. I want to get a better sense from you just about how, where are we in this moment of history?

I know you and I are just a few years apart. And I know we grew up at a time when the Cold War was absolutely on fire. You know, we went to bed at night not knowing if the 30,000 nuclear weapons that were facing each other between the Soviets and the Americans were somehow going to get us blown up overnight. How would you compare the state of where things are at today with back then? Well, Steve, we are in a really dangerous moment. And, you know, we looked back and when I was young, I mean, I was a peacnik marching in the streets to try and stop what could have been the end of the world. In fact, in the early 1980s, the world almost ended a couple of times from near mistakes with nuclear weapons. And there was an amazing moment.

I mean, we brought down the Berlin Wall. We ended apartheid. We did. There was so much in terms of turning back what could have been a catastrophe. And then we, I think we just let it all go. We decided that history had ended. That was what they told us. And we didn't have to worry and we got focused on our gadgets.

But history kept moving. We're in a moment right now, I think, where we see the authoritarian threat in an unprecedented form. I mean, not just in the United States with the paramilitaries on the streets, but in the rise of the far right in Germany, in France, the struggles in Romania, the UK. And right now in Ukraine, very frightening situation. They say that Putin's losing 30 to 50,000 troops a month. He's firing hypersonic missiles at Kiev. There's a lot of talk that he can't sustain this,

but I think it makes him even more dangerous at this moment. You know, the catastrophe in Gaza is unfolding. So we're in this. I've been calling it since the day one, is this new age of monsters where the rules of war are being ignored. International law is as being considered a joke, or for the woke. And so it puts all nations in a very precarious position.

I mean, who would have thought, you know, five years ago that the United States would be not only threatening Greenland and Denmark, but threatening to walk away on NATO and threatening their next door neighbor that they've had great relationships. All things are possible right now. And this is what makes it such an unstable time. Yeah. How well do you think we're doing at resisting being sucked into that vortex? of authoritarianism and so on?

I think something spectacular and unprecedented happened in Canada. I mean, I think we were sleepwalking towards a disaster. You know, the Trudeau liberals were collapsing. The NDP, my party, didn't seem to have a plan for what was coming. Trump came and then started threatening us. And you suddenly saw ordinary Canadians. And Steve, this is what I really amazes me with might as Canada, is it's ordinary Canadians understood what they were seeing, the boycott is on precedent.

Probably the most powerful nonviolent resistance campaign in memory because nobody organized it. It's having a huge impact. We shut down the entire basically the whiskey industry in Kentucky because Canadians stopped buying the huge damage done to Nevada. So that's constant, constant pressure. But there is a real fragile line, I think. We see it with, you know, I call it Donbass Danielle in Alberta, this front group of separate. that have met with high-level state department officials, we see that the ambassador of the United States is still threatening, like that they, an ambassador, a foreign ambassador could put our sovereignty up for discussion. Again, the threat to Canada is real, but I think the sense of

solidarity that I've seen in traveling this country has been really amazing. It's why I think other parts of the world are watching is something's happening here, you know, and I think we're going to hold the line, but it could get a lot rougher before it gets better. Well, it's interesting. I do recall in attending the leadership convention that the Liberal Party had in which they picked Mark Carney to be their leader and, of course, the next Prime Minister of Canada. The highlight of the convention, besides, I guess, the Carney win, was a speech given by former Prime Minister Jean-Cretien, who was the Prime Minister of Canada, oh, 1993 to 2004, I guess.

And, or no, 2000, now I'm blanking. 2002? Maybe 93 to 202. Yeah, he was. You're right. He was there for a long time. Anyway, he said, we should give the highest civilian honor that this country has, namely the Order of Canada, to Donald Trump,

because he's done such a great job unifying Canadians against him and against the rapacious appetite of the United States right now. What do you think of that idea? Yeah. Well, I certainly wouldn't give any, uh, anything to Donald Trump, except maybe an indictment to go to the Hague. But I think what Kretchen was saying was that Donald Trump woke us up out of, I think is a sleepwalk towards disaster and something amazing happened. You know, I'm not a liberal.

Steve, you know me. I've never been a liberal. But I mean, Prime Minister Carney speech at that convention talking about a vision of Canada. That's what people are hungry for. That's what they want to see. Certainly a statement at Davos. really surprised the world.

And it is going, I think it's put us in the crosshairs with the United States. Right now they're distracted by Iran. They're going after Cuba. But they are really bothered that they have a nation on their border, a democratic country, a country that has been best friends for a long time that they seem, they throw more attacks at Canada than any other country other than maybe President Zelensky if Ukraine's received a fair share. no attacks on Putin, no attacks on other authoritarian regimes.

But the fact that Canada is speaking up about a vision for the world, we're in a tight spot, but it's a very, it's a fascinating moment to be part of. Yeah. And you know, the thing, I mean, you know me, you've known me a long time. I really try to play things right up the middle. I am not a partisan person. I don't have an in for any team in Canadian politics or anywhere else for that matter. I've tried hard to understand why so many people in the United States could support for president a man that, I mean, I don't mind saying, I think is manifestly unfit in terms of his character to be the president of the United States. What is it about his unique selling proposition that got so many people on board? Part of it, I suspect, is what the Democratic Party had on offer, which was soundly rejected by so many people. But I think part of it, Charlie, was the fact that he seemed to be the one guy.

in the United States who was speaking for, in some respects, a lot of the same people that Bernie Sanders and you might be speaking for. You know, the working, the average working person who the Democratic party abandoned because they were so interested in their Hollywood friends and raising money and, you know, coastal elites and all of that. So I want to, I did want to give Trump his due in terms of giving voice to that group of Americans. But these days, he seems, you know, obsessed with rebuilding the White House, putting his face on a $250 bill, building an arch to himself, putting his name on the Kennedy Center. I wonder even by Trump standards, has he lost the plot of what he originally got into politics to do? Well, Steve, you know, I've been using the word, the phrase gangster

fascism. And I think when I first started dropping F-bombs, I was probably not put back on the punditry circuit. But, I mean, the authoritarian nature, the narcissistic, But also, like one of the key things about fascism is that, you know, the so-called great leader is the distraction. I mean, people in Weimar, Germany thought Hitler was a clown. Just as people think Donald Trump was a clown, people thought Hitler wasn't serious. He was just saying outrageous things to get votes. But what was behind them was the frightening thing. The fact that so many very powerful people thought suspending the rule of law, going after enemies,

targeting the Jewish population and stealing their property was a great idea. And I think what we don't pay attention to enough with Trump is that it's not just Donald Trump. I mean, he is basically the avatar that was conjured out of this toxic Ouija board of the oligarchs, the rising economic insecurity, and the extreme right of people like Steve Bannon. So he touched the cord of alienation where the Democrats, you know, everything seemed to be transactional politics with them, whereas it's like, yeah, you vote for us. will give breaks to the tech oligarchs. Well, Donald Trump was going to give breaks to the tech oligarchs, but at least he said he was going to fight for the people. We didn't see that sense of passion with the Democrats, and they failed.

And, you know, at the end of the day, if democracy fails, it's not because of boneheads like Pete Higgs has got in command or RFK Jr. got the wheel. It's because the people whose job it was to recognize the threat didn't stand up. Didn't offer something better, didn't address it. And so Canada, I think we were on a very similar trajectory at the end of 2024. Donald Trump shook us awake. So we may now be on a different direction, which may be a way for other countries to start seeing a better future. I do wonder, though, whether you can, I mean, your views on Donald Trump are well known.

But I wonder if you can give him props for anything. Is there anything he's done so far that you could point to and say, okay, yes, he's an authoritarian. He coesies up to fascism. He's trying to get rid of all Democratic guardrails in the United States. He's not particularly fussed about the Constitution. You know, he's got his own, in some respects, private militia with ice going all over the country doing its things. But I can give him this. He has done that, and I'm okay with that.

What's on that list? I wouldn't put anything on that list. This man's fundamentally unfit. He's a criminal. I mean, the guy's a convicted sex predator. The allegations in the Epstein files and the FBI documents are shocking. If this was anybody else, they'd be in jail and he's not. So I think the issue is not what has he done right.

Is it how is a man so manifestly on fit for anything? The backing he's gotten from Russian dark money, the fact that the Trump towers, the whole idea of him. is a billionaire, successful entrepreneur. It's all BS. I mean, his operations were massive money laundering machines for the, for the Russian oligarchs. It's just a long, dark litany of a man who is a dangerous narcissist.

So what we're seeing now with his picture on the Justice Department buildings and going after E. Jean Carroll and trashing the legal system in the United States is what happens when you give the keys of power to a convicted felon. So again, I say I'm not all that concerned about Donald Trump. I'm concerned about the fact that the legal system in the United States, the courts, the media, and the political system, let this guy have it. And they're still giving him, letting him have his way as the world is burning right now with what's happening in this straight of her moods. So there you go. Taking podcast, folks. Check out Midas, Midas.

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CBA.ca.ca. forward slash trust. That's cba.ca.ca. forward slash trust. And now back to the show. Great. Charlie, I think this is a good moment now maybe to move our focus to Canada, and in particular the province of Alberta, because you and I have not had a chance to talk about what appears to be. Well, I don't want to exaggerate it, but I don't want to minimize it either. There is a substantial sovereign-ist, maybe separatist cohort in the province of Alberta right now.

And while Trump was sort of making moves to make Canada the 51st state, they may be just focusing in on one province in particular now, namely Alberta, because, of course, in October, they are going to have a referendum in which they will ask the question, do you give your government of Alberta permission to begin negotiations with the government of Canada to make Alberta a sovereign country. How dangerously do you take the threat of separatism in Alberta today? Well, Steve, you know, if you look at what happened in Brexit,

Brexit was David Cameron's attempt to mollify his far right base on Europe, and everybody knew that that referendum would fail, and it didn't. What we saw in Brexit was massive manipulation of the voter roles, the role of Cambridge Analytica, the role in being able to micro target voters. You didn't need to shift that many people to upset what happened in Brexit. The Russian Internet Research Agency out of Petersburg played a huge role. They also played a role in 2016 with Trump.

These are all the operatives. I mean, we're now learning from CIS that the Internet Research Agency is focusing on Alberta. What really worries me, Steve, and I've been out in Alberta, and we've got a lot of Midas viewers from Alberta, is people are out every day door knocking, trying to organize, trying to defend democracy, but they have a leader and Daniel Smith who continually panders to this extremist group, which I don't think is very large. Jason Kenney and I don't agree on much, but I think his assessment of this group is pretty accurate.

And if you look at the timelines, David's like, I was just researching the Alberta Republican Party, founded by a former U.S. Marine, It's like, come on, is this, are we being gaslit here? That Alberta Republican Party set themselves up the same week in February 2025 when Donald Trump said the only thing that we could negotiate on trade was our sovereignty and our borders. So this is the Don Bass playbook. Two of these referendums were rejected by the courts. This third referendum to me needs to be challenged as well because to have a referendum on whether we should have a referendum is a referendum. And they don't need to win to cause maximum chaos.

And that's what worries me right now. We are in a very precarious moment for Canada. The Trump regime can't beat us from the outside, but the fact that there's top State Department officials were meeting with these separatists. We learned last April they were talking about a $500 million loan. The fact that the secretary of the Treasury was talking about how they wanted Alberta to break a war.

way. The Americans are, MAGA is really angry at us for standing up. This, this becomes their tool to undermine us. So it is a very, very concerning situation. It's one thing that keeps me up at night, Steve. I know that we can hold our border, our nation, our identity, but this internal play could play out in a much more chaotic and unexpected way. But if you look at the, you know, what happened at Brexit, you look at 2016 and you look at how it's played out in these kind of manipulations in Europe, the playbook is pretty clear. Well, okay, you mentioned the name Jason Kenney there. And for your American friends, we should mention he's the former Premier of Alberta, who was a conservative, but who sat atop a

conservative party that became increasingly sovereignist, maybe even separatist. And when it came to a leadership review, he got 51% support, which clearly was in his judgment, not enough to keep going. And he stepped down. And that was the end of his his political career after a, we should say, very long and successful political career, both at the national and the Alberta provincial levels. Self-preservation is a huge part of politics. I don't have to tell you that. And I wonder whether Premier Smith of Alberta has determined that she's not going to be Jason Kenneed, if I can use that as a past participle. She's not going to be Jason Kenneed and have the far right of her party take her down in

the way that it took Jason Kenny down. And therefore, she's put this referendum question forward. I think she would say in order to give a bit of a safety valve to those who would take Alberta out of Canada. My hunch is that's her play. Your fear clearly is that it's going to awaken as opposed to tamp down the separatist forces and we're going to have Brexit all over again. What do you put the odds at? Well, I think that the Alberta, the people of Alberta, and I, again, I've been out there and I've got to get back out as soon as I can. I'm so inspired by the determination in Alberta. It's where you're seeing grassroots democracy in action right now. What concerns me in, you know, in the scenario, is that, you know, Jason Kenny and I sat across from him in parliament.

I spoke to Kenny many times. We didn't agree on much, but, you know, I had grudging respect for him. But he had pushed the conservative party to a much further right. right-wing position. This wasn't the government of Peter Lougheed, who even new Democrats in Alberta, I know loved the old conservative leader, Peter Lohed, a man who was a unifier. I think what Kenny did was he invited the gremlins into the house and they threw them out. And Daniel Smith is very much aware that she placated that group. But then what you have is you have a small group who have real power within that party,

but they don't reflect where Albertans are. Albertans are concerned about the decline in public health care. They're concerned about the situation in the schools. They're concerned about the wildfires in the summers. They want a government that's focused on Albertans. Instead, Daniel Smith is playing to this small base, and I think it's a very dangerous game because it's already opened the door. When you have the Russian Internet Research Agency starting their bot farms,

we see that more and more of these offshore accounts, are being set up to to pump Alberta Liberty. Also a lot of race hatred that I see online on it comes up in my feed. Supposedly from Albertans, which I don't believe at all. I believe it's a these are offshore bot farm. So this is this is the playbook that caused maximum havoc in the UK. And we just have to look right now 10 plus years in the UK. And they still haven't recovered from Brexit.

We still see serious uncertainty and insecurity. We do not need that. in Canada at this point. And I think Daniel Smith is been a disgrace on this. And I'll give a big shout out to Premier Wob Canoe, who just continues to call these things out, but in a good way, a positive way, in a way that I think rallies Canadians. That was an awkward moment at the Western Premier's conference the other day, right? When Premier Smith said something and Wob Canoe from Manitoba, and again, they're in different parties, but Premier Canoe is a pretty moderate, New Democrat and is able to reach out well beyond a kind of a narrow traditional New Democratic Party

base. And he basically said in front of all the media, in front of all the cameras, you know, now Premier Smith knows that none of what she just said is true. And then went on to to kind of, you know, in his view, clarify the record. But Charlie, the thing I wanted to raise with you in following up to your last comment was we're at a unique moment, I think, in Canadian in history. And I guess for, you know, our American friends who are watching right now, it's not just the separatist forces in Quebec that we have to worry about. It's the separatist forces in the province of Quebec as well, which in 1980 had a referendum to take Quebec out of Canada, thankfully failed. In 1995, had another referendum to take Quebec out of Canada.

Thankfully failed, but by that much, it was 50 and a half percent to 49 and a half percent to stay in Canada, so razor thin. And now, of course, they're going to have an election in the province of Quebec, maybe just a couple of weeks before the Alberta referendum. And, again, we're well ahead of that right now, so who knows who's going to win. But if the election were held today, the separatist party in Quebec would win that referendum. So you have the specter of kind of a Western separatist foothold and a central Canadian separatist foothold in Quebec.

and as you look at all of this, I mean, what fears do you have for the future of Canada? I think there's a difference right now between, I think, I think the Alberta separatist group is much more. I think there's a lot of astroturfing. I think there's a lot of foreign money. I mean, the nationalist question in Quebec is always there. It will always be there.

One of the things that's really struck me is that when the threat comes to Canada, it really reminds the people of Quebec, the Francophones of Quebec, they've always felt being this Francophone island in a much larger dominant English sea. They see the United States threat, I think, very clearly. I was just looking at some really interesting polling, they say, in terms of people who insist on buying Canadian, the highest number of people who search for a Canadian label are Block Quebecwa voters,

followed by NDP voters, followed by liberal voters, and much lower was actually conservative voters. So I think I think the dynamics of the Parti-Chibecois is unique to Quebec. It's part of the Quebec fight. And, you know, you always have these liberal governments and the cact. They always get themselves caught up in corruption and people throw the bums out. So the alternative is the Parti-Caiquois. They're going to, they're say they're going to call for a referendum.

But right now, as long as Trump's threatening us, I don't think that referendum goes anywhere. I could be wrong. I don't want to underplay it. But I think the chance of monkey-wrenching something in Alberta. right now is more concerning than the usual fight in Quebec between the nationalists, the federalists, the corrupt party, the throw the bums out dynamic. That's going to play itself out in the way it always does in Quebec, which is always wild and, man, people are passionate about politics there.

Yeah. Okay. I've really been wanting to talk to you for a long time about the state of social democracy in Canada, and in particular, in your former party, the new Democratic party. the New Democratic Party of Canada. And of course, they just had a leadership convention not too long ago, and they have picked a, you know, a really a third generation legendary Social Democratic family member. His grandfather was the leader of the federal NDP.

His father was the leader of the Ontario NDP. And now Avi Lewis, who lives in British Columbia, but is originally from Ontario, is the new leader of the National New Democratic Party in Canada. And I haven't had a chance to ask you yet what you think of the choice of him as your new party leader. What do you think? Well, I mean, the Lewis family, our legend, my Scottish granny made me come up to the 101 Mall and Timmons to shake hands with David Lewis when everyone else was out waving at the Prime Minister Trudeau, the older Trudeau in the original Trudeau mania. Stephen Lewis's speeches, my granny used to make me sit and watch them on TV because she said he was the man who spoke for them. the people. I think Abby inherits a party that self-destructed. I was very frustrated coming into the

last election. I knew it was going to be bad. I think the party had lost the plot. So there's a massive amount of rebuilding. I think that was the message from the base in voting for Abby. They wanted someone to rebuild, to rethink this thing through. I think there's going to be a huge opportunity for social Democrats in the coming years because Prime Minister Carney, I think, has done extremely well on the international stage. I think it's unprecedented what he's done. I don't know that he's got the finger on the pulse domestically. I think that as a banker, you know, the issues of austerity, privatization possibly. These are things that will start to cause trouble and the new democrats have a million dollar deficit he's not he's got an 80 billion dollar

deficit in his last budget that's not exactly austerity no but i think they have to find cuts right so where those cuts happen i think what's really concerning to me right now is that this is the first parliament i can remember where we don't have sort of the guardrails uh on both sides between the right and the new democrats you know just having one new democrat at committee makes a huge difference in terms of the kind of questions that get asked. That's not happening. So there is an opportunity for the new Democrats. The question is going to come down to how are we going to rebuild trust? This has been my issue with the party for some time. I don't believe it comes down to stronger, bolder language and bigger policies. I think it's about rebuilding that sense of belonging that new Democrats always had that,

you know, Steve, when I first went to an NDP convention, I was kind of like, what the heck is going on here, you know, people coming down from Thompson, Manitoba and Swiftcour in Saskatchewan with all their party buttons and they came every four years because they felt like they were part of a movement. Well, we became much more leader driven, you know, Ottawa focused. It was all about how many TikTok likes we had. And I think we lost that base. The concert has certainly moved in on that base. So is Abby the guy who's going to go back to Nickel Belt and Thompson and Saskatoon and rebuild that? That's, to me, is the question. Well, the temptation, I guess, would be to simply take Mayor Mundani's playbook in New York,

where a social democratic candidate came from basically, you know, nowhere to win the number one mayor's job in all of the United States. The temptation is to take that playbook and try and implement it here in Canada. Do you think that's the way to go? Well, I certainly think everybody's on the left that I know are in love with the Madami playbook. I think it's not necessarily transferable. I think one of the things that's striking about Madami is that, okay, he's definitely a democratic socialist in the richest city in the United States. But what made him win is he was so likable. He loved New York.

He was obvious about loving New York. He didn't wrap his policies in a lot of ideological language and he was out being seen practical. That's how you win as a new Democrat. That's how Wob Canoe wins. I think that's how Jack Layton started to move when we had the big orange wave of being, you know, that image of Jack pouring beer in a Montreal bar with a Montreal Canadiens jersey probably did more for the New Democrats than any policy we ever came up with in terms of people saying, I like that guy. So that's my thing, my hope for Abby is to recognize that politics is about relationship. Politics is about making people feel they belong. And as we said about the Democrats, people didn't belong.

They didn't feel like there was anything on offer other than a lot of words. So New Democrats, we're super good at words. We're super good at policy. But it's that trust that has to be rebuilt. So that to me is where the party rebuilds. There's definitely going to be a call for more New Democrat seats in the next parliament. And so it's going to come down to Abby getting out there and going to a lot of coffee shops and being in a lot of union halls and hanging out with, you know, ordinary folks,

less so perhaps than the intellectual class. Get out there and see the ordinary people and you can do well. How important do you think, because he doesn't have a seat in Parliament right now, of course, having just won his leadership, he does not have a seat. And I guess there's a bit of a debate in party circles as to how important it is that he actually get into Parliament where he can join his, whatever it is, only five other, Is it five MPs that the NDP have nowadays? Six MPs now, yeah.

I mean, it's a disastrous situation. I've always felt it's important. How important is it for him to get in? I've always felt it's important to be in the house. Jack got elected, you know, a lot of Abby's supporters said to me, well, Jack didn't have a seat in the house. No, but there wasn't that much of a period between when Jack ran and when the election was going to come.

And I think Abby has a runway to be out there building. But it is that being in the house, day to day speaking, challenging. That's how you build it. Now, without party status, he doesn't have that much of an opportunity. But I think if we're going three, four years, it would be worth seeing if he can get in a by-election.

But, you know, Steve, I'm a guy on the outside now. I'm not giving advice to any of the political parties. I'm watching like you, but I think it's really important that there is that strong. new Democrat voice because that's how we got some that's what made us different having that third party made us different than what happened in the United States and if we don't have a strong third party like that I think we we end up in the same kind of politics and we'll be back right after this I'm sorry Charlie I'm not going to let you off the hook from your NDP strategist's role

that I want you to play here which is to say you know you said the best way for him to get back into the house as soon as possible is not wait for the next general election, but maybe try to run in a by-election coming up. He lives in British Columbia. There will be a by-election coming up in British Columbia because a liberal MP just stepped down there. He's from Ontario. He's from Toronto. There will be a by-election, presuming if Nate Erskine Smith steps down in Beaches, East York, there will be a by-election there. Would you recommend that he run in either of those two by-elections in an attempt to get into the house sooner than later? I think it's important to run.

I know when Tom O'Carre became Jack's lieutenant and it was really important to run and people didn't necessarily think that Tom would win in the riding. He ran and he did. It's like you have to step up. A Beaches was a long time NDP stronghold for us. So it makes sense. Again, nobody's calling me and asking my advice. I'm trying to give advice for how Canadians resist right now. but I think it's, I think it's, you're the leader.

It's a good idea. So these are, these are doable wins. And I think he's got momentum now. And it's best to hit while the iron's hot. Have you met Avi Lewis? Yes, I met Avi a number of times. I met him a number of times. Do you like him?

Yeah, you know, I mean, I didn't support him in the leadership. Everybody knows I supported Heather McPherson. I thought she was the person, particularly at this time, coming from Alberta, someone who knows how to win when we lost so many other seats, but Avi won. So he's the new leader. He was chosen by the base.

And again, he's super smart. I think, you know, all of my issue is that politics is smart, but the smart thing is not to act too smart is to just, it's learning how to talk and be with the people. I'm not saying that Abby doesn't do that, but that to me is the advice

to be a successful politician. Jean Crutchin was a hell of a lot smarter than people gave him credit for. but Jean Crechen really knew how to talk like he was the little guy from Schwenigan. He probably really wasn't the little guy from Schwenigan, but he certainly was able to cut through with people. I don't suspect that you and the former founder of the Reform Party, Preston Manning, had a lot in common politically, but I do want to read you a quote of his and get you to react to it. Mr. Manning said, populism is like a wildcat or a rogue oil or gas well,

where there's so much pressure from the bottom, it blows the platform. It could catch fire. It could be a very dangerous type of thing. I think that's the challenge for particularly the Conservative Party. And that was his advice to conservatives in the country. I do wonder whether you think the same kind of advice would make sense for New Democrats as well. Well, you know, we always had a tradition of prairie populism in the New Democrats. To us, populism was a good word.

It was about building that movement. movement from the base that the base felt they were part of. I think we are in a different time, this sort of hyper-politics period where everything is being done in these flash moments on, you know, online, people getting outraged about something. It's a much harder thing to ride. And, I mean, I don't know how many times in the last few years people told me they were never ever going to vote for me again if I didn't do X. So that kind of populism becomes a harder thing to ride and to maintain.

but again, if you build roots, if you build the riding associations, if you build trust and your volunteers, you can ride out those kind of waves. And being rooted in the populist sentiment of the people, being able to speak to that and being able to transform that, I think is important. I think the danger, what the conservatives did was that they fan the flames of alienation, they fan the flames of rage. I saw that certainly with the Alberta and Saskatchewan MPs. day after day in the house. I mean, they made Justin Trudeau look like he was the devil incarnate.

When that wasn't good politics for Canada, it may have scored them some easy points. And I'm a survivor of, I learn it's easy to play to the mob, but the mob will turn on you. So you have to find a way to take that anger, that rage, that whatever's happening in the moment and try and move that and transform it and try and show people away for it. That's the difficult time that we're in because I don't see a lot of politicians who are able to do that. Again, I'm sure. I'm sure.

Do another shout out to Wob Canoe. I think he's just been brilliant at getting his lines through. I just saw him say, you know, about putting booze back on the shelf. He said, no Coosma, no boozma. People like that. And then they remember that, right? They remember, oh, he said that. He's an okay guy.

You know, like that's, to me, is good populism. Just a reminder for, again, for your American listeners, we have 10 provinces in Canada, and Wab Canu is the Premier of Manitoba. He is a new Democrat, and he is by all polling over the last many months, the most popular premier out of all 10 in Canada right now. Every poll shows that. So, yeah, he's got something good going on there. Charlie, I want to ask you, okay, I want to do this sensitively,

and diplomatically. But, you know, the leadership convention that picked Avi Lewis is many months behind us now. But even last week, somebody approached me on the subway here in Toronto and said, could you believe that NDP convention? Not a Canadian flag in sight. They're waving the Palestinian flag up on stage. They got different colored cards, depending if you're a black woman or if you're a disabled man, you know, when you get your turn to speak because the identity politics has just,

got out of control. This was the suggestion of, I don't have to tell you, many, many people who watched that convention and wonder what the hell is going on there. I'd like your view on on the what seems like an emphasis by the new Democratic Party to be very focused on issues around identity as opposed to maybe the folks who are going a mile underground to to mine gold in northern Ontario. I'm really interested in your take on that. I think we've lost the plot in terms of understanding how to represent the people who don't have a seat at the table. I think the problem of focusing on identity and the idea of giving people cards about who gets to stand further ahead in the line.

That's about creating hierarchies of who gets to speak and who doesn't. So who would want to be part of that at the end of the day. I think I want to be part of a party that, you know, local folks feel like I could go down and I could listen and I could feel I'm part of it. I was really struck by the lack of Canadian flags on the stage, Steve. I think this is a moment where Canadians are feeling very, very concerned about our nation. And our flag is a good flag. And it is a, we come from a long nationalist tradition. I'm thinking about Bob White, you know, hardcore union activists.

He wrapped himself in the Canadian flag. Ed Broadband, Tommy Douglas, they were, they were proud Canadians. I was remembering a convention with Jack Layton where the Canadian flag was seen everywhere. I think, I think it's showing that they're not noticing what other Canadians are thinking when they feel it's, they don't want to have a Canadian flag on the stage. I was, again, I didn't say anything about it, but I was like, what, how did, how did they miss that? And I've talked to activists about that. I said, like, you know, the left is missing out this moment, this moment of incredible grassroots activism. Everywhere I go in the country, people are wanting to organize local chapters to get involved in

democracy again, because they understand democracy is under threat. This is a moment for the left. This is the moment for the union leaders. This is the moment. for social Democrats. And, you know, the Canadian flag, the Maple Leaf, it's a damn good symbol. And it's a symbol we should be really proud of. And I'm going to throw one more to Wobb while I'm talking about being a patriot. Yeah, that's a good thing in a Canada. It's not being bullish and, you know, arrogant, but it's saying these are our values.

And this is what we come from and we should be speaking up and not afraid of it. And because if we don't do that, then we're giving all of that turf to people who could manipulate it in a whole other direction. Okay, Charlie, let's talk about my favorite Toronto Maple Leaf story, Bill Burilco. I think the last time I interviewed you actually, Charlie, was just a couple of weeks ago for this documentary I'm doing on the greatest goal ever scored in Toronto Maple Leaf history, which is by Bill Barilco, 75 years ago, a guy from Timmons, Ontario, you used to represent that area in Parliament. I want to know whether you plan to go visit Bill Barilco's gravesite as you, I guess, have for many, many years in a row at some point this summer.

Well, Steve, it was great. We did that interview at Varsity Areta. I mean, okay, I was never a hockey player. Nobody picked me on the team. But man, what an iconic place to do an interview about such a powerful moment in Canadian sports history, but such a tragedy, such a mystery. Bill Barocco scored the most famous goal ever. And then disappeared.

It took 11 years to find him as plane crashed in the northern bush right after scoring that goal. And ever since I've been a little kid, you know, my granny was a mining widow. We went to the graveyard every summer and we walked and we visited all the graves. And this summer, Steve, I will go back like I've done every summer and I will go see Bill Barocco's grave. I think the last time I was there, someone had put a puck beside the grave. It was very touching. Nice. Well, I'm going to Timmons in about nine days, I think, maybe a little less. to, you know, it's how, you're right.

He, his plane crashed. First of all, he scored a goal in overtime that won the Leaps of the Stanley Cup. This was 75 years ago this past April. And we're going to fly to Timmons. We're then going to get in a helicopter and get to within, I think, probably five kilometers of the site where the plane went down. And then we're going to walk through the bush to get to the actual spot and do some shooting there for our documentary. And Charlie, I don't know how I'm going to feel. when I get there, but I got a feeling it's going to be very emotional because I think this is in

many ways for Toronto Maple Leaf fans and for hockey fans and for Canadians in general who know the story. That's kind of hallowed ground, you know, as you point out, he disappeared for 11 years. They found him 11 years later, during which time, of course, the Leafs won zero Stanley Cups, despite having had a dynasty when he played for them. And then, you know, when they found the bodies, they won the cup again in 1962. It's a very surreal story, but I was glad to talk to you about it. Okay, I got one last mischievous question for you, Charlie. I'm ready?

I didn't agree to come on to have mischievous questions. I'm just, I'm calling you out now. Well, let's see how bad you think it is once I ask it. Do you recall what you were doing on October the 1st, 2017? I don't know. Was that when I was losing the leadership race? You got a good memory. Charlie. Yes, indeed. You were running for leader of the NDP and Jugmeet Singh beat you. And we have seen

what has happened to the NDP over the ensuing nine years since that leadership convention. And okay, here comes the mischievous question. How different do you think the last nine years would have been for the NDP had you won that convention instead of Jugmeet Singh? Well, Steve, I'd like to say two things about it. The only time I talk about the leadership is to say My wife said losing the NDP leadership was the best thing that ever happened to me. And the other one is I came in second. So if you are a nerd who loves political trivia pursuit, that question will never be asked. But if it asked who came in second in the 2017 leadership race for the Democrats, it was me.

I felt that in 2017 that we were starting to lose touch with the base. And I felt that the party really wanted to get someone who was dynamic. someone who could restore the excitement of Jack. But, you know, Jack brought excitement to the party, Jack Layton, but Jack was a builder. Jack was an organizer. Jack understood the grassroots. And I felt we were losing touch.

And that was my offer. I don't think my offer was as sexy as saying, hey, it's going to be great. You know, let's get out there and be exciting. To me, social democracy is not exciting. It's hard work. So that offer didn't pass. So the rest is history.

I'm not going to judge Jugmeet Singh. I think, you know, there was moments when he did great work. He was a good campaigner, but we lost the plot. And we ended up with six seats. So, you know, history rights itself. Gotcha. That's a solid answer to what I hope was not too mischievous a question. Charlie had.

I'm way past that, Steve. I'm so glad to be doing the resistance and so glad to be speaking for Canada right now. And, you know, the rest of that, folks, if you want, the real story, you got to buy me two pints of beer in a bar someplace in northern Ontario, and you might get part of the story. Oh, that's great. Okay, I'm going to take you up on that someday. In the meantime, at the end of the Paken podcast, we always like to say that we encourage people to join our Patreon community at patreon.com forward slash the Paken podcast, and all of our shows are archived at Steve Paken.com. Any housekeeping you want to take care of before we sign off?

Well, Steve, it's been great doing this with you. Midas Canada supporters and viewers, please hit subscribe. If the Paken podcast folks are watching, please hit subscribe to Midas Canada. And we have the Charlie Angus Resistance Substack where I write almost an essay a day about the troubled times we're in possible ways to get out of it. And I did write a great article recently on Bill Baroquee and boy, people love that story. I read it. I love that column. You betcha.

Yeah. Charlie, it's been great spending so much time with you both a couple of weeks ago at Varsity Arena, to talk about Billy Barilco. And again, here today, Midas Canada Network and the Pagan podcast. All good wishes to you, my friend, and see you down the road. We'll do it again. Next time I'm going to want to list a question, so I know which mischievous ideas that you guys have been cooking up.

But folks, it's all good. Keep kicking at the darkness. It's going to bleed daylight. And we say thank you. Merci. Megwitch to everyone for watching. And peace and love, too.