The Paikin Podcast - David Peterson: "The More You Have, The More You Owe"

Episode Date: December 28, 2025

Ontario’s 20th Premier David Peterson joins Steve on stage at The Pearson Centre to look back on his early life, his father’s politics, and “why the more you have, the more you owe.” They also discuss any regrets he had as premier, the Human Rights Code, the failure of the Meech Lake Accord, the separatist scars in Canada today, the state of Ontario’s Liberals in 2025, and what’s next for David Peterson at 82. Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastX: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.socialEmail us at: [e-mail]

Hi everybody, Steve Paken here, and we thought we'd get one more item sent out to you before we say goodbye to 2025. And I want to finish off the year with someone who's had a pretty good year. David Peterson became Premier of Ontario 40 years ago this year, and throughout the year, there have been many events marking that political anniversary. Some of Peterson's colleagues from his time at Queens Park put together a reunion of sorts, during which time I interviewed the former Premier. I also interviewed Mr. Peterson for the TVO series The Premier Files in which he was one of six living former Ontario premiers to revisit some of the decisions they made when they had what's arguably the second best job in Canadian politics. And I interviewed Mr. Peterson a third time at a gala dinner a couple of months ago for the Pearson Center, which is an Ottawa-based think tank that tends to come at issues from a progressive point of view. And given that this was our third conversation, well, I tried to mix it up a bit by asking him about some things that we'd never talked about before. So we are going to finish off

2025 by presenting that conversation here on this edition of the Paken podcast, and we chose December 28th to drop this edition because it is the former Premier's 82nd birthday today. So here we go. David Peterson, Ontario's 20th Premier, coming right up on the Pagan podcast. Let me tell you, let me tell you a story. I'll tell you a true story. When I was Chancellor at University of Toronto, we awarded, you can see they have low standards down there.

We awarded Steve Paken, a non-con. degree. And I recalled how when Paken was, he first came to Queens Park working for CBC and I referred to him as a snot-nosed

little journalist. I had no idea he was going to turn into Walter Cronkite. And so that's what I'm dealing with, Walter Cronkite. Whatever he says is the truth just so you know. Gee, thanks, Breen. Okay.

Well, okay, here's the challenge we have tonight, you and I, because we started recently a new program at TVO over six Friday nights called the Premier Files. And you were the first one two Fridays ago. Bob Ray was last Friday. It's all been downhill. Is that your point? Is that your point? You do know Kathleen sitting right there, right? Oh, geez.

Then it's going back uphill. Mike Harris is this Friday night. How many people are going to watch the Mike Harris interview in this room, I wonder, okay. If you're tied up, it's okay. So we did an interview, we did quite a lengthy interview for that show, and then we also did on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of your election victory

earlier this year. We did an interview at that event as well. So the challenge is to find something that we have not yet talked about, because I suspect there are some people in this room who've either been at that event or seen the Premier Files on TVO. It's all your interview.

So you want to talk about the defeat? What do you want to talk about? No. I actually want to talk about, I want to start with, I know there was a great build-up there earlier, about, you know, we're going to revisit 1985 and talk about all the great policy and this, that, and the other thing.

But everybody in this room knows about that stuff already. I want to ask you some stuff that I don't think I've ever asked you before, which we're going to start with family. your dad was one of the original signatories to the Regina manifesto and he ran for Queens Park against John Robarts in London in 1955 and I wonder if all three of his boys decided to get into politics because of the example he set I'm sure that had lots to do with it but just back up a bit my dad was

his parents were Norwegian immigrants, hardly spoke English, they came to Chicago, they were given a land grant in North Dakota. This was at the turn of the century. They got 100 acres. The first child,

there were 13 kids, 13 little Norwegians running around the place. The first kid was born on the sod by my grandmother alone in front of that house but that's not that long ago and so when you kind of take this into as part of your heritage my dad was the first one born in the hospital he was the sixth kid by that time they'd moved to Saskatchewan because they'd lost all these farms and it was a very tough world they

lived in and during the depression on the prairies was as tough as it got there was a drought And it wasn't only tough, nobody thought it was going to get any better. There were no governments to help you. There was no, you were on your own, more or less. Now, they had lots of love in the family, very little education, very little support of any type. Fortunately, my dad was extremely smart. He was a brilliant man, and he was very successful life, eventually. But he left home at 13 and he lived in Regina

and the only support he had was he joined the YMCA and he learned how to speak and he will tell you that he learned he didn't know table matters he couldn't go to a out for a respectable place for dinner he had no friends he had to figure all of life out of himself and he eventually became part of the

of the CCF, he was a young activist, he just felt it was wrong that the world didn't offer support and help for people at that point. If he was CCF, why aren't you? Well, I'm smarter than my dad, as the answer is. Steven, that's a legitimate question. You know, I am very much, even though, Even though I am, in my politics, fiscally very prudent,

you can see that we balance budgets. I think the wellspring of government has to be kindness and decency and helping people that don't have a voice of their own. I don't worry about the rich guys. They're really good at taking care of themselves. I don't look at the really big, powerful groups. They can look after themselves. And life's a fight with it.

Our job was and is to speak for the people that don't have a voice. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of them. Well, that was the tradition, Stephen, that he brought. And when he came to Ontario after the war with $50 and my mom, he started his own business in London, Ontario. but he never forgot that thing that the more you have, the more you won't. And that was very much part of our lives.

It was part of, and it's never about you, it's about what you can do for other people. No, he was a practical, successful man, but that just allowed him to do more. So he was maybe the only liberal in London in 1955. He ran against John Robarty, lost. He ran again federally in 16. He was a local counselor.

I'll just tell you one thing. I remember my mom and dad were knocking on doors and they would, you know, they'd meet somebody that didn't have what we had. They'd steal our kids by two brides and my clothes and give them to these people at the door. I didn't see the equity of that at the time, but that's the kind of people they were,

all of their lives, to their children and to their grandchildren. Let me bring you to the middle 70s then. There are three brothers. You're the middle one. You ran first, though, right? Of the three brothers? Geez, I think Jimmy, did I? Shelly?

Geez, I'm glad Shelly's here. Can I tell you? Do you want some advice? Always marry a younger woman. I'll help you remember stuff. I guess I did. Did you three boys have a discussion about who was going to? a run no no it my whole life was serendipity it was accidents things happen to me and things happen to jimmy

and jimmy and timmy my younger brother who ran too and it was just kind of accidents all along the way but we both all came from that that upbringing and for which we are enormously grateful so jim's nose was not out of joint when you ran first and won my brother jimmy is so successful at everything his wife, his widow here, is here. Heather, I know. I'll tell you, he wants another gossip. He met Heather in grade nine. I don't think he'd ever been out with another girl.

At least I know he'd never kissed another girl. I know that for a fact. And they had the happiest marriage, and Jimmy had a very successful career. And Jimmy was the best at everything. everything. The best at school, the best valedictorian, the best at the hockey team. There's just nothing my brother couldn't do. And he was and he also happened to be one of the kindest people on earth. So he was very good to me and to his other younger brother. Well, you say there's

nothing he couldn't do, but in fact when he ran for the first time in 79 he lost. Was that a sticking point between the two of you? I'm looking for trouble here. You can see that, right? One of the things, Stephen, one of the lessons we were taught is success and failure in life are both fickle mistresses. And you don't judge your life on that base. Sometimes you're going to win, sometimes you're going to lose. You're judged, other things are more important to judge people on. And Jimmy always took that view. Jimmy won. Jimmy lost. He was back. He was in the cabinet, out of the cabinet. Very successful federal minister of the crown.

like by everybody, one of the most loved members of parliament, I think my friends in the House would agree with me. And he made a tremendous contribution of this country. I'm actually not trying to be difficult about this, but I think it's in my head because

I did ask Ken Dryden about this. Because he was the younger brother and yet had a significantly better career in the National Hockey League than his older brother Dave. And I always wondered if that created any friction between the two of them. And he said, no, because Dave never let it get awkward.

And I wonder if you had that same kind of thing ever with your older brother. Never, ever, ever, ever once. He was so totally supportive. We were supportive of each other. We knocked on the door to help each other. Talked a lot. No, because part of that, he was the older brother and he was the leader, but because he was such a generous and decent soul.

It could have, perhaps, with somebody else. but never with Jimmy. Okay. Jim Coots is in the news a lot these days, strangely enough, because his diaries have just been published, and we're learning a lot about that time that we didn't know before. You must have known him.

We actually knew Coots quite well. Coots was a good friend of Jim and Heather, personal friends beyond politics. But we actually, when we, I first got elected in 1975, Jim Coots, and a lot of you know them, lived on Lauder Avenue, had this little dinky house about this wide, and then he moved two doors down, and we took over the lease. He gave us the house.

Shelly and I took over that house when I was a member of Parliament, so I remember, I'm kidding, the house was this wide. And we had a crib in the corner, we had one bedroom, a crib in the corner, and one kid slept, and Chloe, who's right there, slept in a drawer. And that's how we lived in Toronto beside Coots, and we got, we know quite well. And of course, he loved Shelley. Everybody loves Shelley, but he loved Shelley, and he was a very, very interesting and bright guy. Okay, since everybody in this room is expecting a little bit of 1985 reminiscence, let's try this.

Bill Davis made the announcement that he was going to extend full public funding to the end of high school for the separate school system. I know OECTA is here today, so I thought I'd bring this up. But you actually did it. And then he made the announcement to build the Skydome, but then your government actually did it. And I wonder if you ever get kind of pissed off about the fact that Bill Davis gets either credit for stuff that you actually did. But don't forget, the Archbishop accused him being a Nazi, accused Davis of... This is how Hitler changed education policy in Germany.

This is how Lou Garnsworthy accused Davis. Look, that was one of the most complicated pieces of legislation ever. But you're right. Bill Davis announced it and left. It was out of guilt because don't forget, he'd run against the Catholics in 1971 on not one dime more, the policy had gone into abeyance. Nobody was talking about it much, but he, I think it was pure guilt. Either the Cardinal got to him, the Archbishop got to him,

or somebody upstairs got to him, but anyway, he decided he's got to do this. And the Liberal Party, which had always been the party of, more or less, it was the Catholic, historically, the Catholic religion, represented by the liberals. So I walked into the house. I had about 20 minutes notice that one of the biggest policy shifts in the history of Canada

and said, we're going to shift all this. And I hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about that policy. I knew where we were. So I had to stand up and respond on behalf of the Liberal Party, which we did. Then he left,

left the Conservative Party in tatters over this. We were highly principled about it. Don't forget, there were lots of people didn't like us for doing it, but we were there and consistent and clear, and Frank Miller was kind of wavering on the thing. So it, and then we brought in the bill, and it was, Stephen, let me say, and I asked Sean Conway, I said, Sean, when we become the government,

you will be the first minister of education. This will be the first bill we're going to put in. He went at that with his great brain as a scholar, understanding of the law, don't forget, this was complicated legally going back to Confederation, don't forget, this was, it went to the very fabric of our country and the history of our country and some of the greatest political wars

in this province. There's been a lot of political wars over Catholic and separate school education and French education. Sean handled that with an aplomb and a knowledge and a grace and consultation that is a model in how to do legislation

in a complicated minority house, in a minority house, I remind you. So, yeah, look, I have great memories of this stuff, and I'm very proud, Stephen, of the execution. One of the things I'm most proud of, and I say this, I'm not challenged it. We had the best cabinet ever assembled in the history of this problem.

I say that. Conway is byrd, Bob Marlowe. Nixon, he's 98 years old, Jimmy Bradley, who just, you and I read his funeral on Saturday, the greatest environmental minister ever. Don't forget the province of Ontario, we invented, we invented here in the province of Ontario, Jimmy Bradley was the minister, the blue box, which is all around the world today, all around the world. He stopped the acid range, shut down Sudbury, the biggest emitter of sulfuric acid in the world. And all these, these were tough things at the time, at the time.

And Ian Scott, who was a most brilliant attorney general. Don't forget, we ended first government, I think, in Canada, and one of the first ones, went to end discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation under the Human Rights Code. Easy today, but really hard then. And when you had this enormous, enormously talented group of people that I was lucky to serve with. I say, you know, we were blessed, we were blessed.

Let me follow up with one of those questions from sort of 35,000 feet, which is a Premier gets elected to exercise his or her best judgment, make decisions, and then at some point it ends, and somebody else comes in and does the same thing. How upset does a First Minister do that? does a first minister get when a successor changes things that he or she may have wanted to stay the way it was? You can't take that view, Stephen.

You cannot. You have to be respectful of the system. You know, things change, understandably. Nobody's got a divine right to go on forever. You make your case as best as you can. Some people argue it's a short space to change the state, a short time to change the world. But ultimately, we're accountable, and if we can't make the case properly, we lose. And so we won and we lost.

It's all fair. And you're not, it's not good mental health to have any regrets. Regrets are most useless of all human emotions. And I would say you carry on. and you continue the fight if you still think you should. But don't take it personally. There's too much taking stuff personally in politics today, and we've got to put me above that.

Is there one policy in particular that one of your successors may have changed that has upset you the most? Jeez, I've never been asked. that before. And I haven't... Can I get back to you on that, Steve? I'm not particularly upset

about anything. But no, I don't... I bear none of them any malice, not one bit. Okay, conversely, does she get a gold star for actually doing what you promised in 1985, namely beer and wine in the corner stores.

It's about time. What the hell you're so long for? Well, you know, it's good to have a good drinking woman run in the province, you know. I'm just kidding, Kathy. I'm just kidding. Kathy did a wonderful job to do it. Yeah, you know what? That was an interesting thing.

We did promise that. And it was very catchy because it was in the middle of a beer strike. And everybody thought, oh, man, like Peterson, would be able to get beer the next day. It took a, it was a little more complicated than that. We actually took it to the house and were defeated. And eventually, Kathleen got around to doing the right thing, and I take off my hat to her. Eventually she got around to doing the right thing. Okay.

Okay. Interesting. Interesting. You are, I have to say, maybe the leading expert alive today on the question of national unity in this country. because you have been through it and I just wonder if based on as you've looked at this issue over the last

many decades of your life how are we doing today on that score just fair just fair I do believe Stephen it is the single most important job of the prime minister

to keep this country united I think Mark is doing as well as it can possibly be done now, but don't forget. The polls in Quebec are all running as if it looks like the separatist forces will increase their position federally and provincially. You have an extremely difficult premier in Alberta that just takes it right up to the edge all of the time. I believe Pashtney.

Don't forget, I didn't bring in, Meach Lake was the federal agenda, the national, just like trade was, and these are the big issues we had to handle. But it was my view. Running this unique federation, and running Ontario, and Canada is a unique federation in this sense.

It's the only country in the world, this is decentralized as it is outside of Switzerland, where one province has so much power. Number two is the only place where we've got 35 to 40% of all the action. And some would argue we were the historical beneficiaries of the national policy and others, but with this huge industrial base, when I was there, if Ontario had been a separate country,

it would have been the 11th largest country in the world in terms of cheap. This is not peanuts. I've said, this is not, and we're in Perry Passu with Prince of Rhode Island, which is about the size of Sarnia. But you can see the way this country was stitched together, and history matters a lot, and you have to respect history. So we had to, in my opinion, the axis between Toronto, Quebec City, and Ottawa was fundamental to the good functioning. country. And that's why we were so close to Quebec. Parasso was a great friend of mine. That's why we stuck our necks out on the Meach Lake Accord. That's why we did everything we could to knit this together. And I say to you, what, 1995, we almost lost this country within a jot of that. That was a

straight function and a result of the defeat of the Meach Lake Accord. Everything in practical terms that the Michiglake according to compass is a fact of life today. It's not constitutionalized. It was a modest adjustment. Just like Confederation 1867 was a total compromise. Don't forget, this country grew out of compromise. We're not like the Americans who were born out of two great wars.

They're still at war, and you can still see the legacy of their history. history and to see the legacy of our history. And I say, Canada's legacy is worth fighting for. It's not very heroic for a political leader to walk out and say, follow me, and I will compromise. It's kind of wishy-washy, as they say in the business. But that's the same. But that's what we do and we accommodate and we've become the most advanced multicultural nation on the world. Everybody respects diversity, people that don't get shed out pretty fast. We don't have political parties that encompass that. We've got to make sure we don't. And there is harmony

in the compromised middle of decency and caring for each other. So I... Yeah, Steve, you asked me about the things that my, my, you asked me about if I regret any of my successors and I don't because I know them all and I actually respect them all. The greatest sadness to me in my life was the death of Meach Lake Accord. Because I knew what would happen.

And I've said before, it was like when, when that thing was killed, it was like watching one of my kids walking across the street in front of a car and you know they're going to get hit by a car and they're going to die and possibly die if you don't do something to protect it

and if it's in your power to do it you have to do it and here we are 95 we almost lost the country been up and down we've gone through the clarity act and all this kind of stuff I get it but it is still a scar in the country particularly in Quebec.

And we have to be very, very, very sensitive. I just say at the end of this, we're a hell of a lot better off together than we are apart. And we are being fragmented at the moment that needs strong, stable, and kind voices to speak about. What do you think it says about you that 35 years after Meach's failure, you are still really able to get yourself into quite a lather about the fact that this thing didn't go through? I mean, we can all see it in you here. You are still pretty burned up about this. I care an awful lot about this, Stephen. There are some things I care about, some things I don't. I care about this.

I think a lot of people in this room care about this stuff too and are asking themselves, well, where are we? What do we do now? Look at this craziness that's happening in the United States. Are we on the right response? We're dealing with in a lot of things in a lot of different ways than we used to in my day. So, you know, there's lots of things to think about

and there's lots of things to worry about. And there's things to change. And we're all part of that. So, look, there are big things in life and there are little things in life. And that, to me, was a big thing. I really should ask you a question, particularly given who's in this room, about the state of the Ontario Liberal Party today, which is in the midst of yet another leadership change

because for the third consecutive election, the party came third, which has never happened before in history. What state do you think the party's in today? I assume everybody in this room is a liberal. If you're not, please stand up. See? I told you. Nobody wants to risk being at death in this room, right? Stephen, I've seen these things go up and up.

Frankly, when I inherited the party in 1982, we were not in good shape. We didn't have any money. We were more or less a rural rump. Stuart Smith had done a good job dragging the party into the cities, but it was an uncompleted test. We only had one seat then. We were the urban face in London, Ontario,

which used to be the most conservative city in the Canada. So I've seen bad times, but I've also know what we did, and I talked about that fabulous group of people that I was privileged to work with, and there's a number in this room here. I mean, we sat together and put together the best research department in opposition,

this province had ever seen outside of Stephen Lewis's, like Phil DeWan, was running. I mean, Phil was here doing this stuff, and we took on the big trust company issues. We established credibility, we raise money, We got people engaged in policy. We recruited people. And we worked like donkeys for three years.

And we were lucky and the election was called and all sorts of thoughts of things broke our way. And we were able to exploit the opportunities and form the government after the accord. So there are lots of luck. But you've got to make your own luck too and you have to be ready to accept luck. Now, I think there's a fabulous situation right now to answer your question.

I think I've met four people here tonight, and some of them I don't know. If you want to stand up, you can't. We're thinking about running for a leader. Man, these are really smart and attractive and bright young people. And I just say, bring them all on. Show off what we have. There's an awful lot there. And things will break.

things will break. I mean, you've got to give Doug credit for exploiting Trump. I, you know, and I think he's wasted a whole bunch of Crown Royal doing it, but that to me

is I'm against government waste. Anyway, I think I guess. guarantee you the opportunity will present itself, and I guarantee you, with the right leadership, we can put ourselves in the position. Most people are not particularly, we assume the extremes. I mean, Doug Ford has sort of moved into our city. He's not burdened by ideology.

So, you know, and if he has to, he's not burdened by consistency. So he can change his mind if he needs to. No, he's been shrewd about a bunch of things. I get all that. But I tell you, we're in the right place intellectually, philosophically, from a values point of view. So I think it is a fabulous opportunity. And I tell you, if I was the young guy today, I'd run.

Well. I think Gladstone was actually two years older than you are now when he became Prime Minister of Great Britain, so it's not too late for you, you know. Well, I'm a little older than Donald Trump. Just a little younger than Joe Biden, so there you go. Actually, let's finish up on that. Why not? That's a good place to stop. But I can scarcely believe it because I was there, along with so many people in this room, in 1985, when a 42-year-old man was sworn in as the 20th Premier of Ontario, and you're about to turn 82, which I find shocking. Now, what's still on the to-do list for David Peterson approaching age 82?

Hmm I'm very blessed Stephen I have been very very very blessed in life I have the best wife on earth and best wife on parking so I'd like to stay around

and look after her in her old age but she's a hell of how younger than I am That's the problem. And I have three wonderful children. One is here today, Chloe, and seven grandchildren. And my oldest grandchildren is right, that fuzzy-haired kid. Great kid.

And I am extremely blessed. And the thing that I'll tell you into personal terms, the thing I am most proud of in my life is my kids and their partners, their spouses, are all fabulous parents. And there's something about that that me, it means a lot to me because we have to be fabulous parents, all of us to the next generation. We have to be fabulous stewards. We have to put more in than we take out. With the environment, we have no right to make a mess and expect the next generation to clean it up. To be perfectly frank, we don't have the right to spend money and expect our kids to pay for our consumption today.

There's a lot of things out of whack in this province and in this country, in my view. We've taken the easy way out. And I don't think you can take the easy way out of the big problems because you're always going to end up paying a price for that. So I think we have to stand for moral responsibility. We have to stand for generational responsibility and do things to make it better for the kids. There's lots of pressures on the world that they live in. So, you know, in my own little way, Stephen,

I've been very blessed with, in my post-life, I was, as I said, I was Chancellor Review T, I loved it. It was the second gig I had in my life working with all these young people. I attended 181 convocations in six years. I shook more hands doing that than I did in politics. And I love the energy and the optimism of these people. I'm blessed because I'm involved in a number of chairs.

I'm still involved with the university and a variety of other things that bring meaning and joy to our lives. and can I just say since you answer your last question thank you for being here because this whole thing of the truth is what happened was Sean Conway was sitting up in Pembroke or in Barry's Bay where he lives and said you know what the problem with the Peterson regime is that people only remember the loss and it was a spectacular loss nobody else could have done that only I couldn't.

But they say, and it's kind of clouded out the other things we do, we did. And so he got together, Charles Beer, who's been the brains of this whole operation, who's right over here in the cabinet, they said, let's put something together and we'll see, you know, they're writing a book. They're gathered a bunch of the ministers. academics and others, analyzing the things we did, the things we didn't do, and a series of speeches. And I guess they wanted, it was a legacy, a great deal was accomplished, Stephen said that, Kevin said that, and substantive things. We changed the world a lot.

But it was born out of, the fuel was idealism. honest to God I'm I'm not sure we weren't I'm not sure we're that smart but we were very idealistic and there was a whole

bunch of us I mean I don't I don't mean one or two I mean dozens hundreds that honestly believed they could change

the world and if idealism is more powerful fuel than money and we were able to gather that up at the time and all of these people that I worked with

they've gone on to spectacular careers with a great continuing to contribute to making a better place and so I am it was a joy to be part of that and enormously grateful to you for having us here

and for listening to us and so many old friends in the room and a bunch of new friends people that are engaged in the political processes from a variety of different points of view. And I would encourage you keep doing it because it's all we've got. That's the 20th Premier of Ontario.

David Robert Peterson. Thank you, Premier. Great to be with you tonight. Thank you, President.