The Paikin Podcast - Director Barry Avrich on his Oct. 7th Film and the TIFF Censorship Controversy

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

Barry Avrich’s October 7th documentary, The Road Between Us: The Ultimate Rescue, was disinvited from TIFF, then reinstated – and just won the festival’s People’s Choice Documentary Award. Avrich joins Steve to discuss what exactly happened, why it was pulled, how he doesn’t think he made a political film about the war in Gaza, the dangers of censorship and protesting art, and how a film about a family rescuing their children and grandchildren became the centre of so much controversy. Follow The Paikin Podcast: TWITTERx.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAMinstagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKYbsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social

Hi, everybody. Steve Paken here, and we're putting a new introduction onto an interview that we shot last week because there has been a late-breaking development. We're about to interview Barry Averich. He certainly had no hopes of winning any awards for the film that he has in this year's Toronto International Film Festival because the film was invited and then disinvited and then eventually played before a very big audience at Roy Thompson Hall. Well, Barry's film has won the People's Choice Award as the best documentary at the Toronto International Film Festival, a development that not many people saw happening. Anyway, here's our conversation with Barry Averidge. Hi, everybody, Steve Paken here, and on this edition of the Paken podcast, we've got a one-on-one with a guy who has been, at the center of, well, I won't say literally, but certainly figuratively, an arts and culture hurricane in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Barry Average has made, by his count, more than 70 documentaries during his career.

None has been as controversial as the one he was invited to show at the Toronto International Film Festival. But then, for reasons that we'll get into here, that invitation was rescinded, and we're going to explore why that was. The film is called The Road Between Us, the ultimate rescue. And ultimately, it was shown at Roy Thompson Hall in Toronto last week. It's raised a lot of questions about freedom of expression and Middle East politics. Happy to welcome Barry Averich to the Paken podcast, Barry. It's great to see you again. This is

our first time doing an interview in this format. Usually I've had you on the agenda in the past, but shall we dive in and talk about the week that was? We shall. It is nice to see on this podcast and congratulations that your choice of artwork behind you is good to see you well the the artwork behind me is a little different from the artwork behind you in as much as mine is real and yours is a fake right wrong is that a real one behind you yes by whom steve this is a pod it's not about art here and you don't you don't have to you know be personal okay well you know i'm asking because you're the guy who's got the book out right now on the devil wears Rothko. That's a different thing about forgery in the art world.

So we'll save that subject for another time. I want to talk about this motion picture that you've just made, this documentary, which has been, as we suggested, at the eye of a hurricane over the past month at least. Why don't we start, for those who haven't heard about the controversy. Just tell us what's the movie about? The road between us, the ultimate rescue, is about a man retired general who gets a text message at 6.30 in the morning in Tel Aviv from his son saying, Dad, my house is being invaded and surrounded by Hamas terrorists. What do I do? And this retired general and his wife don't even think twice. They get into their car and begin the journey of a lifetime to save lives, their son, their daughter-in-law,

and two children under the age of four. And the film follows their journey to ultimately save them in one of the most harrowing days ever. Well, when you say follows their journey, you really do. You have taken him back to every scene he found himself in on that day, the 7th of October, of two years ago. And you take him step by step through what he did on that day. How challenging was that to do? We had an incredible crew, and any time you're making a film, which we'll call sort of a follow documentary in this particular case,

preparation is critical, knowing the roads, knowing the journey, knowing the story. And when you're dealing with a retired general from any part of the world, they don't want to waste time. They're very precise, even making this film as a mission to the general. And so being organized and being accurate and extraordinarily professional was critical. This was a journey that would normally take on any other day an hour, and certainly it was 14 hours for him to ultimately get to his son's house. And so it was definitely a complicated film to make from a production perspective, but we were organized. I do want to get into some of the harder-hitting themes around the movie.

So starting with this, are you trying to make a political statement with this film? Not at all. I'm totally the wrong person to do that. If you know my body of work, I'm a storyteller and try to find stories that I think are entertaining. This particular film touched me because it asked the question, what would you do? What would you do if you got a text message? you're a father, you're a grandfather, God forbid, a family member sent you a text like that, what would you do?

And that's what intrigued me. This story can be in any country. That's what attracted me to it. And that's what I asked myself that question, and I found it, when you watch the film and the different moments along the way that the general and his wife had to turn back detours that they took to save people. when they can literally see their son's house within sight and yet turned around to save people, what was going through their head that day? What if they saved someone else and got to their

son's house and it was too late? These people were extraordinary and I was interested in their journey, not their politics. Does the film attempt to get to the bottom of why Israel's defense forces so spectacularly failed to protect the population on that day? No, it asked the question as the generals taking the journey, he asked that he's faced with that question as he makes multiple phone calls to people he knows in the military and they don't answer. But no, that's, I'm sure there will be many documentaries about this if there hasn't already. I was interested in his story and his family alone. Does the movie take a position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the Middle East? No, it does not. No, it does not. There's no

politics in the film whatsoever other than at the ending where the general's wife, you know, questions how long this war has been going on. And again, where was the military? But there's, it does not take that position, nor do I. There'll be, there are lots of documentaries, and there will be many that do that. But I just really wanted to focus on that one day of this one moment of that day. And there's lots of stories of tragedy and heroism in conflicts. But I just was fascinated by what this man did. Well, Barry, to me, this is what's one of the fascinating. things about your film because as you've told us over and over now, you didn't set out to make a political movie. You didn't set out to take a position on the Middle East conflict. You essentially

set out to tell the story of one family's extraordinary exploits on that day. And yet, somehow your movie became embroiled in clearly what has become the biggest controversy at the 50th anniversary of the Toronto International Film Festival. So let's get some details on that. Can you confirm that you were, in fact, invited by TIF to play the movie at this year's festival. I had let the film festival know in March, as a filmmaker that's had films in TIF before, let them know that it's coming, and May I submitted. And in July, it was of this year, it was accepted. So it was accepted in July. At what point was the film disinvited? about three weeks later.

And how come? I got a call that there was concerns that there might be issues with both opposition demonstrations. They were concerned about security for the film. Well, they had good reason to be concerned. I mean, I went down to see the film, and there were protesters from both sides of this conflict all over that intersection. I think that's a huge exaggeration. There were less than 40 protesters and the police, and they were extraordinary. There were, I think, close to 200. Everyone I spoke to, and not everybody of the 1800 people there were felt really, really comfortable with the security measure. and the police that were there. So I've certainly seen much larger demonstrations as of you.

So I think it was, you know, anytime you see protesters, you're certainly feel it. You're concerned. They were there. They were very vocal. They were louder than they were of a number. But certainly we were concerned about that. So that's a legitimate concern of a film festival anywhere in the world today. It's a it's a legitimate concern if you're going to see a Gaga concert today. But back to TIF, so they had security concerns, which we felt collectively we can deal with. They've opened up films in the past, the Russian-Ukrainian film, I think it was called, I'm not sure. And there was, there were protests. And they had October 8th film that wasn't part of TIF that there were protests. But it's a film festival.

It's been 50 years. They, you know, they know management and how to deal with crowd management, rather. So that was a concern of theirs. And then that kind of snowballed into, you know, other concerns that they, that they started to bring up with the film in terms of potential legal clearances of footage. And I don't know how much you want to talk. Well, okay, let's hit, yeah, let's hit that on the head because one of the things we saw in the popular press reported was that you had somehow failed to get Hamas's clearance to use their GoPro camera footage from the 7th of October for your documentary. Is that true? Well, the true part is that that was a concern that was brought up. I don't know internally who and TIF came up with that

idea or concern. When you're making a film not to bore your listeners and viewers, there's something called errors and emissions insurance. You get that as a filmmaker to ensure that people connected to the film, if they're sued, that, you know, you're insured to deal with that. And that relates to specifically slander libel footage use. This isn't my first rodeo in filmmaking. So, you know, the arrows and emissions insurance was in place when we began filming. So that's not a concern and should not have been a concern to tip. They had that. They asked to be their name to be added to it. I haven't done the research, Steve, respectfully, and how many film festivals have been sued since the beginning of film festival history. I don't know. Have I ever been asked by a film festival to provide errors and emissions insurance policy? Never. But it's a new world. Different time. They wanted to feel comfortable. And we gave them that assurance. Aside from the fact that I'm not aware of Hamas having a

licensing division for film you're you're being facetious there which i understand because that's how it was certainly portrayed in the media as are we kidding here are is is tiff really asking a film producer to clear footage through humas so anyway you've explained how that all happened i think i think steve i think at the end of the day tiff got extraordinarily nervous about the film uh uh and it's it's a complex time in the world and and so there were just i'm expecting people within the organization saying, you know, how do we figure out our way out of this in taking this film? And some of the reasoning just was not proved to be valid. Right. I want to see how far I can push you into revealing what went on behind the scenes because once TIF expressed

its concern about showing the film for the reasons you've outlined here, I gather there were some pretty tense negotiations behind the scenes between TIF and you and other parties to see whether or not the film could be, to see whether there was a fix here so that the film could eventually be screened. Can you take us into some of those meetings? I think the, look, look, once Cameron Bailey, who, you know, who since we've had our film screening last week, as you say, and he did come out on stage, 1,800 people at Roy Thompson Hall and apologized and admitted that the process was flawed and that he had made a mistake. Did you ask him for that apology?

No, no, I didn't ask him for that. So he offered that? He offered that. He didn't offer it. He just went out and did it. Oh, so you didn't know it was coming ahead of time? I knew he was introducing the film, but I didn't expect him to come out. I mean, when the film was ultimately announced, Steve, on August 20th, when the film was restored, the invitation was restored. He at a press conference at Tip Lightbox, he apologized then as well. The apology on September 10th at Roy Thompson Hall was more, I felt, fulsome and heartfelt.

He covered all the bases you felt needed to be covered? Yes, I think he, you know, he addressed the community. He addressed the pain in the decision. And before we go back to the back and forth, I don't believe that, you know, TIF, nor did I expect the global reaction from various communities as well as the industry and the media to the decision to pull the film. I'm going to get to the media in a second. I still want to know who do you give, you know, I'm sure like a kitchen,

there were a lot of different cooks with their, you know, fingers in the pot here. So who gets the credit or what group of people get the credit for finally figuring out the compromise that allowed you to screen the film at the end? Look, let me go back and I'll give you your answer. But the film, the chronology was that the film festival asked me to voluntarily withdraw the film. and I said no and then they came back and officially withdrew the film and we issued a statement saying that they've done this and were disappointed by the decision and yet remained defiant there were no threats made and anything like that but once that was released to the media

specifically in Hollywood trades who had it, it then ignited into something enormous, and TIF then decided to open negotiations and say, look, let's try to find a path forward. That pressure came from the media and from all kinds of people. I can't specifically name names because there were so many that were saying

you know, no matter what, you know, if you're going to pick a side in this conflict, let's pick art. If you're going to have a balance in the film festival with films from different regions and different political stance, I've always said this as I do with my own film, Steve, let's let the audience decide what they want to see or what they don't want to see. And that's all I asked for. And when negotiations began again, and it was complex over an extraordinarily stressful week, I think for all of us, because the media just kept pounding and pounding and pounding at this. All I asked for was that I'd be treated like every other film in the festival, knowing full well that that was going to be complicated. But when I say treated like every other film festival, every film, most every film, not all, but most every film at least gets two public showings and two industry screenings for the media and

film buyers to come and see. You didn't get that, Barry? I did not. Was the film ultimately shown the way every other film was shown in TIF or other films that are way more political from this region? No, but it somehow became a hot button where, again, Again, they were concerned about security and this venue seemed to be the best place to show it. And you decide, not that I'm a military strategist, but you decide at what point you say, okay, I can live with this.

I could, not to get to industry here, but I could arrange other screenings for people that might want to see it, buyers and media, which I did to make sure that they had access to the, film but so that's victory one is uh getting the film back in and my team that were advising me on this also said look you know we won the big battle you're now getting into you know how many screenings uh and you won the big battle um and okay so good and then the second victory was vindication um for those that were there and people have posted about it to walk on the stage last Wednesday night to a standing ovation before the film began.

Findication. I felt, you know, okay, there was a mistake, but now I can finally show it and show it in a hell of a movie theater. Well, okay, now I'm debating in my own head whether I want to go back a third time and try and get names out of you

for the people who were helpful in getting you to that stage. Who was helpful in playing that mediating role between you and the festival? Ever probing question because there's been comments about, was it, you know, wealthy donors? Was it, you know, influential politicians? Was it, was it, I think, what is the difference? Anybody who cared reached out, Tiff felt the heat. It wasn't one group of people that had to make that decision.

It's how long can you stand the heat in the kitchen? and realize that it's a movie, folks. It's a movie. And let's, I've always said when you're programming a film festival, you look at the wall of slots for TIF. And I've been in that room, you know, 389, 420 strips of paper. And you say, oh, yeah, okay, this is going to be controversial. What are we going to balance it with? This is tricky. How do we, you know, and I've always said, this and Cameron alluded to this, Cameron Bailey alluded this last Wednesday night, I kept going back to, even when he expressed concern about the film in the beginning. I said to him, Cameron, that mission statement was there before you and I got there. Number one, we encourage dialogue and debate. And number four in the mission statement somewhere along the way is we, and I'm paraphrasing here, but we fiercely protect. the artistic freedom of filmmakers. Well, for a while, that didn't happen in this case.

No, it did not. And I think that's what ultimately I was sort of pushing for to remind them of that. And I would not, people have come to me and said, you know, how could they program this particular political film? That's terrible. How could they show that? How could they give this filmmaker the, you know, the platform? And my response to that is, don't go.

I'm interested in all film. Would I not go to see a film set in Gaza that won, you know, came second prize of Venice? Of course I would. I'm interested in all film. I might not feel comfortable. I might question some of the, you know, the ideology in the film. But that's fine. You know, that's keeping an open mind to something.

thing. You know, Hollywood reporter reviewed the film and said, it's basically impossible to make a film about October 7th. And I don't think my film is about October 7th. It's about a family. And I stand firmly behind that line. Okay. I appreciate your position on this, and I understand that you believe you've not made a political film. But I want to put to you the criticism that I have heard from others and let you speak to that, which is this. You know, by portraying an Israeli family in a situation where they are being attacked by terrorists and they are trying to defend themselves, and at the end of the day, you have portrayed this family as they were on the day, you know, in an incredibly heroic situation.

Some would argue that the film is attempting to sort of manufacture consent for what is going on in Gaza today. Could you speak to that? Here's my response to that. Here's my response to that. Ask the filmmaker who made it what his intent is. And that's not my intent. I'm a father and I go back to the point of I wanted to follow what he did on that day.

So critics or people that object to it, have they seen it? Maybe if they have seen it and feel that way, they can ask me and I can tell them I have no such intention. You know, the other side of that coin is that there is the notion that that marking Israel's trauma, which clearly was the case on the 7th of October, in no way diminishes Gaza's trauma, nor does it endorse any particular response. Would that be your view? I don't have a view with, with reference to the politics in this particular situation with reference to this film. Okay, well, let's try this. I don't think there's anybody who doesn't think this war needs to end, and hostages need to come home. But that was not the point of this movie. I don't say it in the film personally as a director of the film.

And ultimately, you know, this was a story about that family. You knew the climate in which you were making this movie, though. And I guess I want to know whether you think it's actually possible to make a story, about a family that is, let's face it, connected to October 7th without the film in some way being political. Is that doable? I think people make it political, Steve. I can only talk about, you know, if you're writing a book, what was the author's intention of that book? What was his or her mindset in writing the book and the story that they want to tell? The media and the protesters outside the theater. I had many people ask the protesters if they've seen the film,

not one. So if you want to characterize the film as political, characterize it as political. I know the film I made. What does it say, though, about the times in which we live, in which if you try to make a film about a man trying to save his family, you are somehow seen as either taking sides or being too controversial or being too political? that is the world that we're in and it's the complexities of filmmaking in this world which is why my next documentary is a musical but but i think at the end of the day you always have to come back to ask the filmmaker what his or her intention was and if it was it was my intention to take a side which it wasn't it was my intention to be political which it was not uh then i would tell you Okay, Barry, let me ask you this. I want to ask you about you now, which is to say you've made so many documentaries and so many films over the years, and none of them has had to deal with the sustained pressure and difficulty you had trying to get this film into a theater and before eyeballs of an audience. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering how you handled all the pressure. How emotional did all this get for you? hard very very hard never experienced anything like this before um what made me most emotional

about it was um was having uh my friends reach out uh was having um the support of a very strong strategic team advising me here uh very very smart people and we would meet on zoom five or six times a day and seeing those faces that we're so committed to this and to helping the project see the light i will never forget. Did you have any friends who disappointed you during the course of this because of their lack of support? No, not one. I haven't heard from anybody with some exceptions in the Canadian film community, peers, some, you know, a few, a few producers have reached out that I know. But compared to the American film community that has been extraordinarily responsive to not only to the film, but also at the time of the withdrawal from the film festival. So that's disappointing.

You know, I know I know the industry and have been in it a long time. So it would have been nice to hear from some fellow Canadian directors, but I did not. that's fine why do you think they didn't come to rally support for what you know were they in the same shoes as you surely they would have appreciated some homegrown support for their films i would think they would yeah you'll have to ask them do you think the subject matter was too hot for them to handle i never asked any of them to handle a subject matter uh or to be public but uh for the amount of time that it that it takes to send a text message or an email and say they don't even have to be a political in their response and just say,

you know, hope everything works out at TIF. God forbid their film was withdrawn or rejected and it can happen. Know what this feels like. And I'm here if you need something. You never got that text. No. It's okay. This is a bit of a weird question to ask, but I'm going to do it anyway, and that is, was the controversy ultimately at the end of the day and all of the emotional difficulty that you went through, was it ultimately good because it did shine a light on some really important issues around free speech and gave your film some attention it might otherwise not have God?

Well, of course, of course, but that's never a strategy here. I knew making this film subject matter alone Steve as a niche small documentary was going to have difficulties finding an audience. I might be wrong about this but my understanding

is that no other land which won the Academy Award I believe was never sold I believe and what's that film aboard what's that? What's that film about? No other land

deals with, you know, with that, this political issue in this region, without getting into the storyline. But it, you know, it's set in this conflict. And it won the Academy Award, a documentary. And I don't believe it was sold to a streamer or has found a home. Maybe in certain places in Europe, I'm not sure. October 8th, a film that deals with anti-Semitism after October 7th. has never been sold. So it was theatrically released.

And so you sort of know that going in, that it's not going to be easy making a political film or making a film that's not political set in this region. So I always saw this as a film about family, but you know, you knew it was going to be tricky. The publicity around this film has been enormous, but that doesn't automatically mean that people are going to buy it and people are going to go. People are talking about it.

You know, people say, is it, you know, nice to have the most talked about film at the film festival? Is it nice? You know, you eclipse, you know, most of the other major films, the media is doing their wrap-ups of TIF and they're talking about it. Great. But, you know, we'll see what that means when the film was released. And I'm very, very proud. If nothing happens, you know, after September 10th, 1800 people gathered in a movie theater to make up their own mind about the film. And that to me was great, great feeling. Well, and let the record show that there was a sustained standing ovation for the picture after. it ended. So. And before it began. Right. True as well. You and I've done interviews in the past, and I want to pluck a quote out of a previous interview that we've done and get you to comment on it, because you've said in the past, my feeling about art is if you're going to protest art,

where does it start and where does it stop? Follow that through. What are your concerns today about if you take that approach where it ends? I think to the average, person that seeing protests on the street in Canada can look frightening and jarring. But I don't object to protest. It is freedom of speech, and I believe in it. And so if a protest is civil and calm, then protest is protest. And that's, I believe, you know, as part of a democratic society. I think in a lot of ways, it keeps a government in check if they can.

And you can hear from communities about things. So I don't have an issue with the essence of protests. When I was on the red carpet, a lot of the press asked me last week, can you hear the protest? How do you feel about it? Good. Protest. Protest.

Let your voice be heard. If you're crossing the line and coming into a movie theater and disrupting things and coming into bookstores and disrupting things, then I think you're crossing a line and vandalism. You know, then I don't think it's protest anymore. It's then I think it becomes an issue. When it comes to art, to your question, I don't understand the essence of or the notion of protesting art.

I'm hoping that for every book that someone doesn't like because it took a stance, there's another book that deals with the other side of the coin. And the same thing with film. what is i don't understand the point of protesting art i really don't there's you know there are controversial artists there's controversial writers there's controversial filmmakers and ultimately the power lies in the hands of the audience there's a famous broadway producer i love quoting that says when they're not buying tickets there's no stopping them right now the Toronto Film Festival is also screening some films where Palestinian characters are the

protagonists in those films. And there has not been a sort of similar controversy about whether those films ought to be screened at the festival. What do you think that says? Who knows? I mean, I don't know how people organize for protests. It's, it's, it, you, I can easily go down the road and say double standard and I just shine the light back to the film festival and say if you're taking films from various regions have a balanced program well okay they showed your movie they're showing these other movies like Palestine 36 and I'm wondering if you think it's possible that if people go see both films that they can potentially come away, maybe even out of their echo chambers, and start to have a little empathy for each other's

sides. I'd like to think that. And, you know, somebody asked me, I did a panel when the film festival began almost a week ago. And they asked me, they said, would you be open-minded enough to see films about Gaza stories? Of course. Of course. So, you know, your idea of that people you know, should look at a program that looks at different things, for sure. Absolutely. I don't know if you saw this, but apparently, last week, there was a pledge signed by a couple of fairly well-known actors, Emma Stone and Mark Ruffalo and others in Hollywood. Many? Yeah, not to work with Israeli film institutions. And the quote was implicated in genocide in

Gaza, while Israeli filmmakers have said that such boycotts harm the very people who are working for peace. Do you have a view on this? Lists. Well, let me go back. I mean, you know, Hollywood has always been in this complex position. This is dating back to World War II on who's going to get involved and who's going to speak out, who's not going to speak out. I've talked about Hollywood being fairly muted after October 7th and taking a stand. I don't. And I say this, Stephen, that 2,000 or so signatures were gathered to support an objection against TIF pulling my film. And there is a very long list of Hollywood artists and now Canadian artists, many of them, a lot of them, I shouldn't say many, but a lot of them who have signed the same list that is artists against any Israeli co-productions.

and artistic involvement. What am I going to do? Am I going to stop lists being done? I mean, you want to sign a list, sign a list. You know, I think actions speak louder than signing lists. You know, if you don't want to work with an Israeli director, then don't. You know, where does it end? So I'm not, you know, it's unfortunate.

And again, the list that was signed in favor of, I think, the, you know, the film festival taking my film out was certainly helped. But, you know, signing list to say I'm not going to work with anybody. So when the war ends and may it end, that's the only political statement I'll make on this podcast is that may this war end soon, fast, it's enough. Are you then never going to work with anybody from that part of the world again? I was very interested in your choice of music over the closing credits. You had Phil Collins' song, Another Day in Paradise, playing. And I'd like to know why you chose that music to close the film with.

Yeah, it's not him performing it, but it is his song. And I chose that because the people that chose to live in that kibbutz, that settlement. in a lot of in a lot of ways and, you know, ironical ways and living on the border of Gaza, difficult place.

Call it paradise. Called it paradise. That day of October 7th clearly was not paradise. What's continued to follow since the 7th is hardly paradise. So the film is

the song, the end of the film, I hope, is, you know, is being a little black in terms of, in terms of its message. But, you know, what does Paradise look like now? Barry, let me ask you a couple of more questions and then we'll finish up. You have been associated with the Toronto International Film Festival for more than four decades. And I wonder if you could take us back to your very first association with the festival and what that was like? So I moved to Toronto from Montreal to go to what is now called TMU, Ryerson in those days, and to begin my career as hopefully a filmmaker. And it was the fall and it was cold, it happened to be a

cold day. I didn't know anyone in Toronto. And I thought I'd made the wrong choice moving to Toronto. I didn't have any friends yet. And I wandered up Young Street in Toronto, unhappy, lonely, and made a left onto Bloor Street and saw a lineup. And it was a lineup for the University movie theater on Blur that I think now is, I don't know what it is, some store. And there was a long lineup. And there was a sign that said festival of festivals. Which is what TIF was called then. Yes.

It would end, you know, a great festival started, co-started by a late friend of mine, Dustin Cole. And there was a lineup called Rush Seats. And so I asked somebody what it was. He said, it's a film festival. I needed to escape. And so I got in line for the Rush Line, and I got a ticket, one ticket, easy to get.

somehow, wandered into the university theater, and there was a seat empty in the second row of the theater, huge, what a great theater, and sat down. And a man came wandering down, sat down next to me, smelled of cigar smoke, looked like a homeless man, with a red bag that set outrageous on it, and a Rolling Stones t-shirt, and he was wearing a cowboy hat, and he introduced himself as Dusty Cole. I wouldn't meet him for years later, officially, and work with him. But he said, you're in for a treat kit. And I said, why's this? And he goes, why? And he said, watch this. And the person came out on stage.

I can't remember who was running the film festival and introduced Julie Andrews and Jack Lemon, who were in a Blake Edwards film called That's Life. And film festival. and these stars in that movie Okay, maybe I will stay in Toronto Maybe there are some sense of Hollywood and some stars here And many years later

I would work with the film festival And work with Dusty Cole And I've had a long relationship On and off with them, certainly How many films of yours Have you had play at the festival? I don't know. I think it's not a huge number

But I think it's maybe six six or seven. That's six or seven more than I've had. Well, not yet. You never know. I know you'll make a film one day. Inshallah. We'll see. Barry, last question. I want to know what your number one biggest takeaway from this whole thing has been. Believe in what you believe and stay tough, you know, and, uh, and, and, you know, just fight the fight. Uh, we believed in the film and we weren't going to compromise. And, uh, again, I always believe and let the audience decide. Well, to that end, let's let the audience decide. If they want to go find it, the movie is called The Road Between Us, the Ultimate Rescue. It played last week before 1800

people at Roy Thompson Hall. And, um, you'll have to look for it going forward. We'll see if it ends up on a screening service or you tell me what let me correct you it opens october 3rd uh wide in north america you know at cinniplex and canada oh great so you'd okay you got it sold well it's opening up sinaplexes will be showing this film on movie theaters right across canada october 3rd and more news to follow good for you barry i always end the pagan podcast uh regardless of what our discussions are about with three words which seem very appropriate for this discussion And those words are peace and love. See you.

Thanks for coming on.