The Paikin Podcast - Everything Political: Palestine, Trump Talks and What’s Next for Trudeau

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

On episode two of “Everything Political,” Steve and former MPs Martha Hall Findlay and Tony Clement discuss PM Carney’s decision to recognize Palestine as a state at the U.N. General Assembly in September, the politics behind this historic decision, Canada-U.S. trade tensions, if a deal with Trump is shaping up, and what’s next for Justin Trudeau. Follow The Paikin Podcast: TWITTERx.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAMinstagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKYbsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social

Tony, I know you're a music maniac. Did you go see OASIS? I did. You did? Where did you go see them? I saw them at Wembley Stadium in London, UK. Oh my gosh. Had you ever been there before? I hadn't been to Wembley. It's an intimate venue of 81,000 fans. Did the boys get along okay? Oh, yeah, they were great. I'm telling you, the Brits love Oasis.

Okay, I couldn't tell you one song of theirs. Is that a problem? No, me neither. Wonderwall? No, never heard of it. Martha's with me. You know what? If you sang them, Tony? If you were to sing them, I might recognize them.

No, no, Martha, Martha, don't let him do that. No, we're not going there. No, my goodness. Okay. Put that guitar away. No, no, no. We're not doing that. Association. Delighted to welcome back, former members of Parliament, Tony Clement, and Martha

Hall Finley. And we have, I think we have to start talking off the top about a significant change in policy by the government of Canada, which may have been sometime in coming, but nevertheless, when it happens, it's truly a major moment. The government of Canada has indicated that it is prepared to recognize an independent state of Palestine. And I guess what I want to find out from you to less the foreign affairs angle and more how does a government come to an historic decision in that way tony for example use an example when you were in cabinet where you have a massive decision that you have to make or that your government has to make how much input does the caucus get how much input does the cabinet get or is this the prime minister on his or her own

how does that work well i would have to say that a momentous decision that was not part of the platform, let's say, that you would have to have a good long caucus discussion on that and followed and proceeded by a good long discussion at the cabinet level. So let's face it, this Palestine decision was probably years in the making. I think they, I think Justin Trudeau wanted to do it a couple of years ago, but this thing called the war started by Hamas happened and it was not obviously appropriate at that time. So I don't think, I think that inside the Liberal Caucus, I know inside the Liberal Caucus, there were pressures to make this kind of move. So it's not altogether surprising that it bubbled up at this moment.

Martha, over to you on this. Just as personally, somebody who has supported the concept of a two-state solution for decades now, it is interesting. but I'm hoping, Tony, that there was a lot of that consultation because we didn't hear it, we didn't hear, and I don't mean me, but there was no media coverage of rumblings. There were no leaks, which suggests to me that there may not have actually been a whole lot of discussion, either within caucus or cabinet, and certainly not in Parliament. and I know, you know, a parliament approval,

parliament vote is not required for something like this. This is in the purview of the government. But it sure, to me at least, it felt like it came out of the blue. I'm hoping not. So I'll just say it that way. But I also think the timing is very interesting. I mean, Prime Minister Carney has an awful lot to deal with right now. Some files are not happening as quickly as we might hope.

For example, with respect to energy, I know the C5 and the legislation for speeding up projects, that's run into some challenges. There haven't been things done on the energy file that people have been waiting for to see. You know, there's talk, but we want to see action. And then all of a sudden, Palestine. And then my other question is, but what exactly would we be recognized? Well, that's a good question. It's not clear.

I mean, because are you recognizing the Palestinian authority, the PA, which is still the government of the West Bank, although they haven't had an election in 20 years, but they have no zero, not a control over Gaza. So how does that work? And of course, the counter argument to recognizing Palestine is that you're rewarding the terrorism of Hamas. and so how does that what was the what were the arguments pro and con if there was a discussion there there was a cabinet discussion though martha because they had a cabinet retreat a few days ago and and one of the one of the topics was tariffs and the other topic was palestine so they did have some sort of discussion at the cabinet level but as I say I think the deal was cooked many moons ago and of course with macron of France and starmer of the UK saying

precisely the same thing that they were going to recognize Palestine. By the way, 140 countries in the UN already recognized Palestine. So I'm, you know, this is this is performative to me. I think it's the wrong kind of performance in my view, but in terms of practical effect, not so much. Although there is, Steve, as you know, a law of unintended consequences in politics. And once Palestine is recognized, you can just imagine the pressure that will build to now do some sort of some sort of cordon sanitaire against Israel. Well, if you've recognized Palestine and Israel is the aggressor, why are you sending any sort of aid? Why do you have university connections? Why do you have economic connections with Israel? That's going to be the next

It's not going to stop with recognition of Palestine. I want to focus, though. I'm going to get Janice Stein later in the week or next week. We're going to get Janice Stein on World on Edge to talk about the foreign affairs implications. But Martha, I really want to hit the issue of how this affects both of your parties domestically. I think it's an easier issue for the Conservative Party in as much as that caucus is all singing out of the same hymn book as it relates to the Middle East. the Liberal Party has always been much more divided between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian forces within that caucus. How do you think they are managing all of that right now?

Well, I think, I'm pretty sure it's difficult. We also know that all around the world, diasporas of all sorts of ethnicities and cultures and whatever are almost always more strident. than the people in the homeland, if you will. So, you know, the Jewish diaspora in Canada is not nearly as robust in the discussions and the arguments in the debate that you find actually in Israel. And part of that reflects itself in the political piece

because it's that diaspora that votes. And so there are, without question, people who are representing ridings with significant numbers of people who are either very, strongly opinionated one way or very strongly opinionated in another way. And because that translates into votes, it then goes beyond even just personal principle. It actually goes into, okay, but what does this mean for my electoral prospects further down the road? So I'm guaranteed, guaranteed. There's

some difficult conversations being held right now for sure. But I would also say, Steve, you know, McCall and Starrmer don't have the trade implications with the United. States that we have right now. And it took how long for Donald Trump to come out and say, whoa, Canada, recognizing Palestine. That's going to make our discussions pretty difficult. And sure enough, look what happened. And so I actually wonder about the calculation here in terms of timing might be the right idea, but I'm not sure that the timing is perfect because of the really, really big issue facing Canada right now, which is the tariffs from the United States. States. Which we'll go talk about in just a second. But Tony, I want to get your view on this because,

of course, the Conservative Party has been, I think it's fair to say, ever since Stephen Harper was the leader of the party, you know, maybe the most pro-Israel party anywhere in the Western world. There hasn't been a lot of nuance on its position. The vast, vast majority of writings that are Tory held have insignificant numbers of Jewish Canadians living in them. That's right. Yeah. There's only a tiny handful of writings. It's not a, it's not a It's not a politics decision. It's a principal decision. Absolutely. So tell me how does this play itself out in the conservative caucus? Well, I think that the conservative caucus is of one, which is the stated position of Melissa Lansman and Pierre Pahliav and others, that namely you're rewarding terrorism by recognizing Palestine and rewarding Hamas by doing so.

So I think that's the position. I don't think there's going to be a lot of pushback. You know, obviously we want to compete in the next election in the 343 ridings. which some of those writings have significant numbers of Jewish Canadian voters. Many, many others have significant numbers of Muslim Canadian voters. So again, this is for the Conservative Party, this is not a numbers game because we can't, there's no argument on the numbers to say go with Israel versus don't go with Israel, right? It's just a matter of core principle. And any candidate who runs for the Conservative Party has to accommodate that in their dealings,

with any Muslim Canadians or other Canadians. It doesn't have to be Muslim Canadians who feel contrary about Israel and recognizing Palestine. So definitely not a factor. And I think that you're not going to see any change in the conservative party position over the years. I just think it's built into our DNA to be supportive of the state of Israel, the Jewish state of Israel, I might even add. and that's not going to stop. Martha, if you're playing the numbers game, you'd clearly be on the side of the Palestinians in this

because there are far more Muslims in Canada than there are Jews. So how does the numbers game play itself out here? Well, one, I just think that's offensive. I might have disagreement with some of the... I mean, I just think what's happened in Gaza has just been appalling. But what happened in October was appalling.

And so, you know, the rest of the world is looking at what's been happening and is clearly becoming increasingly anti, I wouldn't say necessarily anti-Israel, but anti-Net and Yahoo. I mean, I just think that it's, it's, how can you not watch what's going on and be dismayed? But, you know, there are still hostages. And they, they haven't gone home yet. And so people just get so upset watching all of this. to me, for it to become a question of electoral numbers in Canada is inappropriate. I really, I mean, I might not always agree with some of the positions of the Conservative Party on Israel. For example, that it should, like a Jewish state of Israel, I find too far, but I can't help but be impressed by the fact that it is on principle.

And to Tony's point, those decisions are not based on numbers. And I think it's really important to respect that. And it may be that Mark Carney's decision here and Cabinet's decision was more based on principle than on numbers. And I would hope that that were the case. Tony, I want to check out this story that I heard with you, because you may have been in the conservative caucus when it was discussed. I've asked numerous people over the years, why is Stephen Harper, who is not Jewish, obviously, why is Stephen Harper so pro-Israel? And the story I heard, which I'm told he stood up in caucus one day and told to his caucus

when he was prime minister, was that his father had once told him, Stephen, the Jewish people have been through untold misery in their lives. If you are ever in a position to be of assistance to them, you must. And that that is a significant, and he told that story. in caucus, and that's a significant part of why he's pro-Israel. Okay, you were in his caucus, true or false? Well, I can never divulge what happened in caucus, but I can say that you're a good journalist's evening. Okay. Oh, well done, Tony. That's very well done, Tony. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Okay, good. So my sources are good on that, and I'm glad to hear it. Friends, let's move on to the

second topic that we've got to talk about, and Martha touched on this just a moment ago, and that is to say August 1st came, August 1st went, and there's still no agreement for comprehensive trade between Canada and the United States. And as a result, Donald Trump kicked the tariffs up even more on those items not covered by the what we call Kusma, what he calls USMCA, which sounds very onomatto-poetic, actually. Okay, where do we start here? Martha Hall-Finley, how depressed should we be that we don't have a deal by the deadline? well one might ask well how long is this going to last right um i fundamentally the biggest weapon that i think donald trump is using right now is one of uncertainty he's he's playing this card repeatedly all around the world everybody's on edge how as a business how can you possibly plan

for the next three quarters let alone this quarter when you have no idea how long a tariff is going to be in place or how big it's going to be or when it's going to be or when it's it's going to be rescinded. So I think there's been more and more commentary more recently, including Stephen Harper, as a matter of fact, who recently said Carlo Dade of our school of public policy, don't, you know, at the beginning we seem to have been too reactive, like, oh my God, the sky is falling, we've got to do this. And it's not to take away from how challenging this is for some industries, without question. People are losing their jobs, shifts are being cut back. This is very serious.

But for us to get the best result for the country, I don't think it's helpful for us to be so reactive all the time. And so the idea is be calm, be respectful, do what we can to be respected. And let's continue on and see what happens. I will also say, I think it's so important to remind every Canadian about this, even though some of this is very hard. Our biggest allies in this are Americans. The American manufacturers who are dependent on Canadian aluminum and steel, who are now facing much, much bigger prices for those inputs. Copper, although I don't even know what the tariff is on copper anymore.

Frankly, I've been having a hard time keeping track. Isn't it 50%? But the key here is it's the Americans, it's the Americans who are, We're going to be suffering more from high tariffs imposed by Donald Trump than anyone else. I think it's taking a little bit of time. It's starting to manifest itself. And so they're our best allies. So how do we manage to work with American state governors, American congresspeople, American business people, and do so calmly and thoughtfully, I think, is the only thing we can do because I don't know what else would work.

Tony, what say you? Yeah, I mean, look, we're dealing with a president who changes his mind radically on issues on a daily or weekly basis. So even those countries or organizations who have a deal, like the EU deal of a few days ago, within 24 hours, the Americans and the Europeans were disagreeing about what the deal was. You know, this is like, this is supposed to be a logical process. It doesn't seem very logical to me. And similarly, I think a lot of countries out there who are getting deals or pursuing deals are saying, like, we don't care what the language is. We just, we want to be get, we want to get out of the face of the U.S. president. Because when you're in his face, you know, just all sorts of crazy stuff happens.

So that's, that's been their way of dealing with it. Carney's way of dealing with it is have negotiations privately, not give away the store. It appears, although I don't know because all of these negotiations are in secret. And just hope that the eye of Sauron moves on to another issue for the next weeks or months. I think that's the strategy. I don't know because the prime minister is not. really communicating with Canadians about what the strategy is. Fair enough, I guess, but it's hard.

Oh, I don't know. Martha didn't like the – Martha's eyebrows went up when you said that. Okay, what's the story, Martha? He didn't have a whole lot of conversation with Canadians about his decision to recognize Palestine either. I think one of the challenges that Trump presents is that if you are doing too much of your negotiation and help – in the public arena, there are way too many opportunities for him or some of his people to pick up and get angry. And, you know, so I actually think given the person that the government is negotiating with,

I actually don't mind that there may be a lot of discussions going on behind the scenes. I will say, too, though, I love the concept of elbows up. I mean, how can you not? You know, we're Canadian. Elbows up. But are you seeing any evidence of it? Well, I think, I think maybe behind the scenes, but I also, we have to remember their elbows are 10 times bigger than ours. But he ran an election campaign on elbows up, Martha.

That was the whole reason, the raison d'etra of Mark Carney was elbows up. But maybe he's elbow up. Maybe he's, maybe he's in the corners with this guy and just, you know, being more effective than doing so publicly. Maybe. I don't know. I hope so. We don't know. Well, let me put this.

to both of you. And Martha, I'll get you to comment on this first because I suspect you know the guy. Back in the day when Jean Creche was the Prime Minister of Canada, he had a communications director named Peter De Nolo. And Peter was on CBC News Network just the other day saying that, I mean, I'm convinced he spoke for a great number of Canadians and for all we know, a great number of people in the prime minister's office and this government, when he said Donald Trump is essentially running a mafia state. He's essentially acting like a mafia don. It's a protection racket. It's a shakedown. And that is very inflammatory language.

So, Martha, tell me what you think about the advisability of saying that at this particular moment. I mean, we pride ourselves on the concept of free speech, right? Like, we don't, I don't want Canadians to be cowed by Donald Trump. At the same time, there's some very significant effects on a significant number of Canadians. right now. And so the government's responsibility is to look after Canadian citizens. And and so there's a, there's that, you know, we don't want to, we don't want to shut people up. Like we don't, we don't want to clamp down on that ability to be open and honest. But at the same time, a bit surprising for somebody like Peter who knows so much and, and has such experience,

would have to understand that some of the challenges that Prime Minister Carney is facing. At the same time, I mean, he's not wrong. Like Donald Trump is behaving in a way that no one would have thought possible for a president of the United States. So sometimes you have to call him out. It's a really good question, Steve. I don't know how we as Canadians handle this. Let me just sort of flip this around a little bit because I think it is, Steve, in all Austin, broader than just the negotiations with the Americans.

Because what Mark Carney ran on in the election, what Pierre Polyev ran on in the election was the idea that, yes, negotiate as strong as you can. But at the same time, prepare Canada to be a better Canada, a more economically stronger Canada, you know, a Canada that can have more choices and more sovereignty by its own activities and actions. And so that aspect of it, and I think Canadians basically signed on to that, and conservatives believe that too. And so, yeah, I mean, let's get moving on the big projects that are going to get our resources to Asia and to Europe better. And let's work on our military build up again so that we can actually meet our NATO commitments and our sovereignty that we want to

protect in the Arctic. These are all big issues. Mark Carney talked about him. Pierre Pollyev talked about him. So you're not going to get a lot of pushback from conservatives if Mark Carney actually does that. What we're all waiting for is the move from the rhetoric to the action. Now, I know it's only been three months. And I think Mark Gurney or somebody who was making the point that, you know, okay, that's a hundred days is not necessarily how we're going to solve all this. But at some point, I think Canadians will rightly ask, are we making any progress on these issues that will actually build up our sovereignty so that when Trump does his crazy stuff, we'll have other options available? I think that's a legitimate question. Well, I put a liberal on the record here a second ago, Peter DiNolo, and I want to do the same for a conservative now.

And that conservative is Stephen Harper, who said, if not publicly, then at least in a conference where he knew he would be taped. so I'm sure he understood that his words would get out there. He said on a stage in front of a lot of people that there was no more pro-American prime minister in a long time, let's say. He'd certainly be near the top of the list. Then Stephen Harper, and if a year ago a government of Canada official asked for a briefing from Stephen Harper, he would have said get as close to the United States as possible, we really need that relationship to work. And then he said in front of this audience, I think it was the Canada India Business Council,

or something like that. He said, Tony, he said, I would give the exact opposite advice right now. He said, we have to shun them. We have to find other markets. We clearly don't have the relationship we once had, and we're not going to anymore. Were you surprised he said that so openly and categorically? I'm not surprised about the categorically. I am a little bit surprised about the opening, but that's fine. He's he's contributing to the debate. And he is expressing, a point of view which I think is unifying for our country because he is not a liberal and yet he is expressing something that I've heard liberals say and he's expressing something that other conservatives have said. And Doug Ford has said it for crying out loud, as you know.

And so I think that that's all good for the debate to happen. I mean, he's not in a position of power or authority, but he's certainly in a position of influence. And I think other other conservatives are saying the same thing, is my conclusion. And Tony, and other people of all political stripes are saying the same thing. The challenge is that you can't change geography. We will always have a very, very close relationship culturally, economically, with Americans. We might not be particularly happy with the current American government. But in the long term, the relationship between Canadians and Americans, whether

it's cultural, whether it's family ties, whether it's economic, is not going to go away, and it shouldn't go away. It's been mutually very, very beneficial. But even the first Prime Minister Trudeau recognized we needed to diversify. We're all old enough. We can remember there was a real push to say we need to diversify. We need to actually look to Asia to enhance our our export markets and and it sounded good and yet we kind of still defaulted to do it yeah well we didn't do it probably because it's so easy to it has been easy and into and and buy from the united states i think i think what's happened now is it's not just move away it's i don't think it's move away from the united states i think it's enhance our opportunities

by looking elsewhere as well i don't think we're ever going to turn our backs on the United States. But I also think it is now an opportunity for us not to recognize just how dependent we are on the United States, but to say, but our own economy is not doing very well, period, not because of Donald Trump. Our productivity numbers are terrible. Of course, we have interprovincial trade barriers. It's harder to trade between our provinces and it is throughout the entire European Union. I mean, if anything, it's not just move away from the states. It's take advantage of this moment and time as Canadians to get our own house in order and, yes, diversify. But I just don't think we're ever going to not be close with the Americans.

Yeah. Martha, this is a good time for me to remind our viewers and listeners about something you said the last time we gathered here. And I had people feedback to me that they thought the comment you made about interprovincial trade barriers was the most sensible thing they'd ever heard on this subject. And I remember your, you know, this is one of those very amorphous topics that people don't necessarily understand. But the way you described it, that the break standards on trucks in Saskatchewan might not have to be as significant as they are in Alberta, because it's flat in Saskatchewan and there's a lot of hills and mountains in Alberta was a really clear example of why there are different standards of different provinces. And anyway, people fed that back to me and they really like that.

So I want to give you kudos and put that on the record. Good for you. to just solve the problem. Yeah, exactly. That's the next step. Now, here's the point in our program where we've got to thank the bankers because we are really delighted to have the Canadian Bankers Association supporting the work that we're doing here. So I get to do this ad read, which says with all this talk about nation building, infrastructure, clean energy, innovation. It looks like Canada's ready to take some big steps and some big swings again. We sure hope so.

But, of course, to do that, you need capital, a lot of capital, and the banking system can handle a banking system that can handle that. kind of mission. Canada is fortunate to have a banking system that doesn't just keep up. It leads. And that is why on this episode of everything political on the Pagan podcast, we are happy to partner with the Canadian Bankers Association. Canada's banks aren't just watching from the sidelines. They are helping move the country forward. That means backing entrepreneurs, supporting major projects, working with Canadians to build a stronger financial future. They help grow small businesses into larger ones. They support families buying their first homes. and invest in the infrastructure Canada needs to compete and prosper.

Whether it's a neighborhood cafe or a multi-billion dollar project, Canada's banks are there to help turn big ideas into real results. We've got a website here that you can go to for more information. It's cba.ca.ca.com slash prosperity. That's cba.ca.ca. slash prosperity. And we thank the bankers once again for supporting everything political. Absolutely. Two thumbs up for Martha.

Okay, we're going to tackle this third topic in a way that nobody else in the country has because everybody else that's been talking about former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau this past week has been talking, of course, about his date with Katie Perry. And we're not going to do that. We're going to allow the man his private life, and we're just not going to weigh in there. No, sorry, pal. We're not going there. Come on, he went to the concert.

That wasn't private? That wasn't private, but his... Anyway, sorry, I'm old school about this. I think even high-profile politicians are entitled to a bit of a private life. Totally. What I want to find out, yeah, I know, I'm a party pooper. What I want to find out from you too is there is generally a playbook after you've been a first minister or a very high-ranking cabinet minister or whatever that goes like this.

You step down as prime minister or premier. You get yourself ensconced in a big-name law firm. If you're a lawyer, you can do legal work. you can be a rainmaker, you make lots of money doing that. You get yourself ensconced in maybe a dozen different boards of directors and you get a big, big income that way as well. And, you know, if you've got a good soul and I think most of them do, you join some charities as well and you help raise some money for some charitable endeavors. But the bottom line is you kind of have an open door to corporate Canada if you want it and if you've had a successful first ministership and then

they kind of roll out the red carpet. Justin Trudeau's been out of office for several months now, and we haven't heard anything about his future career. And I guess I'm curious from you guys, Martha, start us off here. What's out there? Because I don't think that's his path for what it's worth. I don't think that's the path he's going to take. So what do you think he's thinking about right now in terms of,

or maybe more importantly, what are prospective employers in this country thinking about right now as it relates to the former prime minister? I don't, I don't think that the former prime minister was ever seen to be very much of the pro-business, business, savvy type. His academic background would not support that kind of activity either. I mean, we do have prime ministers who were lawyers and, you know, very successful people before they entered politics, which does help ease that path. I just, one thing. you said, though, Steve, if I can, if you'll indulge me. We just did a big G7-related conference.

And we had both former Prime Minister Craychan and former Prime Minister Joe Clark. And Prime Minister Craychan and former Deputy Prime Minister John Manley did a fireside thing to begin. And Joe Clark did a speech and an interview kind of thing to end. They both got immense standing ovations. It was such that they contributed so well. I mean, half of us were in tears with Joe Clark's presentation. I mean, it was extraordinary. I say this because they both did so at no cost. They volunteered their time.

And so the way you described it, it all sounded like it was revenue generating for former prime ministers. I just, I think it's worth saying that sometimes you end up, you have people who were former politicians, former prime ministers, who give back and do so. voluntarily. And I think that's worth acknowledging as well. Interestingly enough, Justin Trudeau did a lot of speaking engagements before he went into politics. Yes. So he was making, he was making significant money doing speaking engagements beforehand. I don't know. In a way, Steve, it was pretty rough on him the last couple of years. I mean, you know, whatever we might have thought about the governance of the country, it must have been. pretty hard on him personally. And so if he's just disappeared for a bunch of months, good

on him, really. And so we'll see what he does. I just don't think corporate Canada boardrooms is where he would even feel comfortable. But Tony, if you were advising him right now, what would you tell him is out there for him? Yeah, I think, I agree with Martha. I think what's out there for him is more internationalist-type endeavors, United Nations or OECD or something like that, some kind of sinecure there, which is not paying a lot, but I'm not sure. We don't have to do a tag day for Justin Trudeau, so there's that. So, I mean, you know, there's a few people in my party that consider him part of the international elite. And so he might as well cash in on that as best he can.

if I were advising him, that would be an avenue of doing something meaningful in his life on the international stage, which is something that he's now used to. And I think of people like Jacinda Ardern from New Zealand and, you know, other people of kind of his graduating class doing the same thing. So I think that would be where he would be most put to use. And, yeah, he's quite different. You mentioned Jean-Cretien, of course, who has had a very significant business career post-politics. And can I just share one little story?

Please. Please. I was industry minister, get this call from my chief of staff. Prime Minister Kretchen wants to speak to you, former Prime Minister Kretchen. Really? Okay, well, let's set it up. Is it about China? Is it about India?

What is it about? I'm the Minister of Industry. Is it about autos? It's about aerospace. So, anyway, we set up the call, and he says, well, you know, Tony, you know, you've got a constituent in your writing. Yes, Prime Minister, his name is Alex Tilly. Yeah, Tilly hat guy, yeah. Well, you know, Alec want to get a hat to the royal family.

Can you help? Sure, I can help. Okay, good. I give you Alex Tilly's number. It is 705. Prime Minister, I know Alex Tilly of Bracebridge, Ontario. I'll get his number. Don't worry.

Okay, okay. It's just like, this guy was like worried about like one of my constituents making the right. I don't know. Something about it was absurdly funny, but at the same time, pretty amazing at the same time. That's adorable. That's how is my impersonation? That's what I wanted. Not bad, I got to say.

Yeah, not bad at all. Martha, you're at a university. You're affiliated with a university. And, of course, one of the things that a lot of former politicians do, Ontario Premier Dalton McGinty did it. Ontario Premier, former Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynn is still doing it. They go back to campus. Bob Ray did it after he stepped down. He was in Sconson to Massey College for a while.

Can you imagine Justin Trudeau on the post-secondary campus somewhere? Not really. Okay. Tell me why. That's interesting. I say that just most of the, first of all, I think it's, Justin doesn't have to do much for money at this point. He has a very good fortune of being relatively wealthy before he entered politics and now. So he doesn't have to do some of these things, which I think is helpful for him. but he's not I think he's at he's he's he's he's he's he's he's read a lot right um but he's not

an academic um he doesn't come across as an academic and you know if you if you've been in business if you've been a lawyer if you've been an academic uh as an awful lot of you know politicians have been it's an easier transition transition back into that world. And even, you know, for me, I'm having practiced law and been a lawyer, but also very much involved in research, the academic world on a number of files, the academic world is more comfortable for me. I'm not sure Justin, I'm not sure he would be comfortable, frankly, in that environment. Gotcha. Okay. We always like to finish up this little segment we call everything political

by asking the two of you after we talk about all the death and destruction in the world to find one example of something good that happened in public life since we last gathered. We like to call the segment good on you because we like to give a little kudos where they're due. So Tony, tell us, when you

looked around the world of politics over the last couple of weeks, what did you see to make you think hey, I like that. Good on you. Well, Steve, I know this will warm the cockles of your heart, but straight off relative success of another premier's conference in Deerhurst in Muscoca, about 20 minutes away from where I live right now. Doug Ford was there, I believe, and as you were, at the unveiling of a of a large art installation in honor of William G. Davis in Brampton. And I think the Ontario

government did have something to do with that memorial being there. And I'm glad Doug Ford was there. and I'm glad that the Davis family was there and that we were honoring a great man in our lives, but obviously in the lives of Ontario and Canada as well. So that was what jumped out of me this week. I didn't know that you were going to raise that, so I'm happy to say that for those who want more information about that, I wrote a column about it on the TVO website.

So people can go to TVO.org and they can find a column that I wrote on really what was an extraordinary event, the unveiling of this installation. It's not a statue. Bill Davis would not have wanted a statue, but it's different and very clever, very creative, and shows his, anyway, that's all I'll say. That's all I'll say. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Okay, Martha, where's your good on you coming from? Well, if I can just add in my plug for Bill Davis, as an Albertan now, and an awful lot of people don't realize that Bill Davis, when he was premier, was actually one of the politicians across the country, including, you know, some in the federal government who were

instrumental in supporting the idea and then just like an idea of getting oil out of sand and was actually very supportive as was the province of Ontario in getting the oil sand started, which has been an incredible boon economically for the country. So little known fact, but something for which people are very grateful. I might have touched on this in the last episode. So my apologies if I did, but it's worth repeating at a time when it's so difficult, politicians find it so difficult to say something nice about a politician in a different party, the Premier of Alberta, and, you know, she gets a lot of tough press in that. So I think this is also worth a kudos to her. She has twice now publicly given a big shout out to the Premier of Manitoba, Wob Canoe, who is an NDP Premier.

She is definitely not an NDPer. And she has twice publicly given him a big shout out for his comment about it's the economic course that pulls the social cart. Yes, it's an economic phrase and it, you know, I think most of us can agree with it. fact that she did so in a very complimentary way of a colleague in a very, very different party is, it was just really important to do. So shout out to her for doing that. So good on you, Premier Smith. Good on you, Premier Smith for that. Okay. Those are two good, good onyas. So many thanks, Tony Clement, Martha Hall-Finley. We'll see you again next time. Peace and love, everybody.

Thank you.