The Paikin Podcast - Everything Political: Will Carney's China Gamble Pay Off?

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

Peter Donolo joins the Everything Political panel with former MPs Martha Hall Findlay and Tony Clement to discuss Carney’s deal with China. They explore why Tony thinks it’s a terrible decision for Canada, the need to chart a new path away from America, China’s history of foreign influence in Canada, and the future of Canada’s auto industry.The panel then considers whether Carney has come through on his “elbows up” campaign promise, the economic war that Canadians face with America, why Carney may need to call on Canadians to make sacrifices, his “mealy-mouthed” reaction to the American invasion of Venezuela, and joining Trump’s “board of peace.”Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcastFollow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastX: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.socialEmail us at: [e-mail]

Hey guys, you know there's this expression. We're getting the band back together again. So I'm going to let you know why that's appropriate for this show because I was talking to Ralph Lean earlier today about the Toronto mayor's race. Ralph Lee, of course, one of these great legendary backroom figures from conservative parties over the years. And Ralph says to me, oh, you got Tony Clement and Peter Donolo coming on the show. And Martha Hull-Findley too. He said, ask Martha if she remembers. We did business together 30 years ago.

Ask her that. So Martha, do you remember? Just please say yes, even if you don't. Okay. Of course. There you go. Okay. And then he went and said to me,

Tony Clement and Peter Nolo were a couple of 20-something smart wise guys 40-plus years ago when they worked with me on the campaign to elect Art Eggleton, the mayor of Toronto. Correct. Oh, my. You guys remember all this? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We were part of the kind of young Turks kitchen cabinet committee, right?

Peter? Well, actually, I came, that was one political lifetime of mine when I did, was not involved in the campaigns. I came on board after Art was elected on his final term. And I was his director of communications, chief cook and bottle washer I did, media relations, speech writing the whole nine yards. But that's how I got to know Tony and, and Ralph Lean, but that's another story. We could do a, we could do an extended series on our interactions with Ralph Lean. It would be a lot of fun and scary at points. I can see people right now are saying, wait a second. Donolo is a liberal, Clements a conservative.

What would they be doing working on a campaign together? But of course, in those days, and maybe still today, we shall see. In those days, there was sort of a liberal conservative consensus candidate to go up against the NDP. Correct. And that was Art Egelton, who to this day, I believe, is still the longest serving mayor in Toronto history. He is.

Yeah. Yeah. Also, here's another fun fact. First elected Catholic mayor in Toronto history. if you can believe that. Is that right? Yeah, which shows what a crazy place this town was for a long time. And yeah, I mean, listen, in 2003, I co-chaired David Miller's campaign. So, you know, he was certainly not a liberal. He was obviously not a conservative as well. But there were people from all three parties involved in that campaign. I think it still happens, Steve. And I think it's a good

thing that it does. And on that ecumenical note, friends, it's time to talk everything political. Everything Political, presented by Bruce Power. delighted to introduce and welcome back to our program. Tony Clement, the former conservative member of Parliament and member of the Ontario legislature. Martha Hall Finley, the former Liberal member of parliament. And this week, our special guest, Peter DiNolo, who not only was Director of Communications for Prime Minister Jean-Cray Chan back in the day, but he is also one of three co-hosts of a really excellent podcast that I would urge anybody who's interested in international affairs and Canada's place in the world to listen to. It's called Red Passport.

He does it with a couple of other forms. diplomats and Peter it's great to see you how are you doing anyway great good to see you guys thanks for having me on welcome a pleasure all right let's get into this because this has been really one of the what could turn out to be one of the most significant weeks uh in the history of the young and we'll see how old Kearney administration that we get here i'll put you to work right away he's got a deal with china and he's pretty happy with it what do you think listen i think it's I actually think it's really good i think that uh I've been saying for a long time that the PM really ought to be out there, though, explaining to Canadians the elements of his plan

for moving the country forward. Listen, we know it's everything from reducing internal trade barriers, getting energy lines built, renewing our trade relations with countries like China and India, loosening the red tape here in Canada for development. There's a bunch of stuff that he's doing. He's not explaining it to Canadians. That's my biggest beef about it. And I think he ought to get out there. You know, when he gets back from Davos after this trip, Canadians are on edge because of what Trump is doing with Greenland and, you know, the not so subtle hints about what he wants to do to us. And I think Canadians need to hear what the plan is, why he's doing it, and what each element is. So I think, you know, we get on the China breakthrough, for example, and I do consider it

a major breakthrough. We get a lot of static from a lot of the usual suspects who say, what about China's human rights, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Why aren't we worried about the American reaction. And the PM's got to explain, listen, he said he had a great line actually on this trip. He said, you know, we deal with the world as it is, not as we want it to be or wish it were. I'm paraphrase. You probably all heard it. And I think he needs to explain that to Canadians. Yeah, we'll definitely come back to that in our discussion. Martha, the China trip, what's your thought? Well, first, I completely agree with Peter. And it's a golden opportunity for the prime minister. I mean, we saw during COVID world leaders, the ones that really engaged with their populations on a regular basis really generated an awful lot of respect.

And I think really helped in a lot of ways. And I would say this is not dissimilar. There's so much going on that is a real concern right now. So, Peter, I think that's an absolutely great advice for the prime minister. I think we have to be a little bit careful. we have a country that has different sectors that have different reasons for wanting or not wanting some of these arrangements. I'm in Alberta. You know, when those EV tariffs were put in and we had this immediate reaction about Canola, it was not helpful.

And right away now we have Premier Ford coming out. This is, you know, look, we're not talking a huge number of cars. We are talking about EVs that are significantly less expensive, hopefully. They certainly are in China. We'll see the translation. If we're serious about wanting more people to drive EVs, this is an opportunity. I think we also have to be realistic about our auto sector. I mean, you know, we have, here's a little fun fact.

It takes five to seven years to get a turbine or a transformer. right? It takes years. The hyperscalers, the big companies are known to be buying their way to the head of the line to acquire some of this equipment. You cannot generate electricity without these things. This is an opportunity, I would argue, for people in the Canadian auto sector who might actually be looking at losing their jobs. Who knows what Trump is going to do next? There are other things that skilled trades and skilled people can do. So instead of whining about oh no this is like i i just think i would love to see a little more oh okay well what are the opportunities what can we do what are the good things about this deal as opposed to immediate

just it just feels like such a canadian reaction right who complain um so i i know i but fundamentally i think this was absolutely the right thing to do we're not going to change china um but it's like the fact that we're you know we can't change geography we're right beside the united States. Let's just get on with finding Canada's best interests and finding what we, what are the paths we have to actually do what's in our best interest, as opposed to sometimes being a Boy Scout too much. Gotcha. Tony, your view of the Carney trade deal. Well, I guess I'm the skunk in the garden party here. Steve, bad, bad, bad. It's my reaction to that deal. Get off the fence and tell me what you're really exactly exactly uh you know how come for sure i mean i i understand we have to trade

with china that you know it is it is one of our trading partners it's not an ally that china or more specifically the chinese communist party that runs china they are not our friends and they have done a lot to undermine i'm not talking about the weggers or Tibet or anything going on in china I'm talking about foreign Chinese foreign interference in our elections. I'm talking about kidnapping two Canadian citizens and holding them for over a thousand days. This is the record of the Communist Party of China in relation to Canada. So you can't just sort of walk into Beijing and say, well, that was the past. You know, we've got, we've got interest. You know, these are things that affect Canadians,

Chinese Canadians and Canadian diplomats and and Canadians in general. So you, I look at this deal and, okay, I'm glad for the canola farmers, obviously, and for the lobster fishers, obviously. But, you know, in terms of the cars, Steve, this is not good because you say, or somebody said, I guess Martha, you know, cheaper Chinese EVs. Okay, well, why are they cheap? They're cheap because it's massively subsidized, massively. Now, we subsidize our auto industry too.

I know that. But this is like state-centered policy to subsidize a manufactured vehicle so it can displace entire auto sectors around the world in Europe, in South America, and now in Canada. It's not a good thing. Doug Ford is absolutely right about this. It's not going to end well for Canada and our auto manufacturers. I mean, our entire manufacturing nearly sector has been displaced by China over the last decades.

The one place where we still had a manufacturing sector in Ontario was in the honors. Now we're going to displace that as well. I just don't think it's good public policy. So, yeah, I'm concerned about this. But that's on the trade side, Steve. Let me just say one thing about the messaging of Mark Carney during this trip. That was even more concerning to me because... Which part?

Well, the part where Scott Moe looked like somebody just slaughtered his cat or something. Well, he's at a press conference with Mark Carney. And Mark Carney is talking about a new world order with China. I mean, what the heck is that all about? Yeah, you can go over. Well, what that's all about is that our best friend is no longer our best friend, so we're trying to figure something else. It's something else out as China?

I would say, go to Japan, go to Korea, go to Vietnam. There's lots of other places in Asia you can go talking about a new trade order or a new world order. But with the People's Republic of China run by the Communist Party of China, this is not good. This is not what I want our prime minister to be talking about. A new world order with China. No. This is why I'm glad Peter Donolo is here because I'm betting that you took, how many trips to China? with former Prime Minister Jean-Fretchen.

In fact, a lot of conservative premiers came with us, too, on Team Canada trips. They were great. They were great for the country. It was another era. It was a different time in the world, a much more optimistic time. But listen, I mean, you can find all sorts of times in history where, you know, you sign up with people, you don't really like in order to achieve a greater good. I can think of the, I can think of the allies teaming up with Stalin during the Second World War to defeat, you know, a huge threat. Now, I'm not comparing the U.S. to that.

But I am saying that Canadians who kind of, and I hear it so much from the political class, not you guys, of course, but generally, kind of like picking and and gnatering about this is wrong, that's wrong, acting as if this is politics as usual. I got used for these folks. The house is on fire. We shouldn't be complaining about the wallpaper in the living room. We need to kind of take serious stock of what our situation in the world is. It's an ugly, messed up world.

And it's particularly for us messed up just. south of our border. And we want to, do we want the house, we want to put out the fire, or we want to kind of argue about the wallpaper in the living room or the dining room. I think we want to put out the fire. And I think so, listen, these points at Tony raises are totally legitimate, just as points that environmentalists raise about pipelines are legitimate, just as points that First Nations groups raise about the need for them to be on side with developments. But you know what? There's a thousand reasons to oppose any one of these things. There's one reason to support these steps, and that is to secure the independence and sovereignty

of our country moving ahead. That's how serious it is. If we continue to be dependent and vulnerable to what is an abusive relationship with the Americans, then we're not going to have a country in 10 years. We need to find ways to make our country more viable, more sustainable, more resilient, and our economy stronger. This is one of the means, one of the tactics. It's not the whole answer, but it's part of it.

Tony, want to come back on that? Look, I mean, I knew that this would be juxtaposed with the United States and our relationship there. You know, Steve asked me specifically about the China-Canada deal, but of course the context is our rapidly depreciated relationship with the Trump administration. But, and I acknowledge that. We still live on the North American continent. We're not going to be moving to China. Okay. So like, yeah, we can do deals and whatnot.

But this idea that Mark Carney can say there's a new world order and we're with China, which was his implication, is a completely divorce from reality and is in fact dangerous to the national interest. We do have to do a deal with America. I know nobody wants to and I know everybody wants Trump to go away and to disappear. I get it. But the fact of the matter is he was elected by saying I can do the better deal with Trump than the other guy. So let's get at it here, folks. Like it's been a year now.

Actually, he was elected to stand up for Canadian interest. But he promised he would do it. He's also said no deal is better than a bad deal. Well, I agree with that theoretically, Peter. But I don't know what's on offer. nobody does. There's a complete vacuum of information as to the state of the negotiations with our largest trading partner at 69% of our trade. No one knows what's going on behind the scenes. That's a problem as well. That's a valid point. That's why the PM needs to be here.

I just, I mean, Australia had to make, had to make some serious decisions about its relationship with China quite a long time ago before the world started to, before the house started to burn, to use Peter's analogy. And they made a decision that, from their perspective, given their geographic location and their economic situation and connections with China, that they were better to engage than not. And frankly, we could learn a lot, an awful lot from how the Australians managed. They moved away from wagging their finger at China and said, look, we're not going to agree on everything, but we're, but we need to engage. And I think all told, it has actually been, for the most part, beneficial for Australian. And New

Zealand, I would add in there, too. But they gave out their car industry, Martha. They don't make cars anymore. I don't hear a whole lot of people in Australia saying that that's the worst thing in the world. Part of Australia's what Australia has done has been to understand where their strengths are, especially as a resource-based economy, and they've really capitalized on that. But let's talk about the car industry.

Listen, Steve, because I think this is a false dichotomy. I mean, what I don't get about Doug Ford is he should have said, Hey, you know, we got American car companies that are leaving the country being dragged out by the American government. The U.S. administration says, said point blank, Leitner said he wants to destroy our automobile industry. So, hey, we got plants here. Chinese come on over and invest in them and build cars here. Well, okay. When is that going to take place?

I mean, I know there's a promise where Mark Carney has said that might be a possibility in the future. But that's, we have a car industry now. I know it's under threat. I acknowledge that. But, you know, this is manufacturing. And these are good jobs in Ontario. I'll take you back, I'll take you back 50 years to when we started letting Japanese automobiles in the country. And this is how we did it.

We initially lowered the tariffs on a set number of cars, but with understandings. And the PM's already been speaking about this, about the next step would be for them to assemble and build cars here. And why don't we start building turbines and transformers? I mean, you know, we've been holding on to this for so many years. it is massively subsidized, Tony. We gave in the auto sector bailout, which wasn't the auto sector, frankly, it wasn't even Ford. It was just General Motors and Chrysler.

The Canadian taxpayers are still out for billion dollars that we never got back. Like, it's massively subsidized. I did that deal. Maybe we should look at what all of those skilled people can actually do. Or that deal, Martha. So don't tell me about the deal. I did that deal. And that deal, say, 400,000.

100,000 Canadian jobs. Because when you look at the supply chain, that's how many jobs were at risk. So that was a good deal for Canada. I can assure you of that. And she'll be going after Chrysler to get the money back now that they're leaving the country? The money was $5 billion. Should we be going back at Chrysler?

Stalantis are called now? Should be going back at then now they're pulling out? Well, look, I think that we should. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, they made promises. they didn't make promises on job numbers.

They made promises on percentage of production would remain in Canada, vis-a-vis the North American total. So I thought that was a good deal. We saved a lot of pensions for CAW members. They've just broken it. Yeah, I know. I know. I'm not saying we're in a good place with the Americans, folks.

I get that. But the solution for anyone who's thinking, listening or watching this broadcast, thinking that the best solution is to get into bed with China. Let's stick a pin in it right now, Steve. I am saying for this podcast, that will be bad for Canada. You're also misrepresenting by saying commercial arrangements are getting into bed with them. That's not the case.

Prime Minister Carney was talking about, oh, well, the other thing is that they're interested in critical minerals and they're interested in oil and gas. I spent like years as a Harper cabinet minister, minister of industry, trying to prevent the Chinese from taking over our oil and gas sector, preventing them from taking over our critical minerals industries, because that was not in the national interest and it still is not in the national interest. You think it's in the national interest for American companies in the current climate to own so much? Well, I think it all has to be balanced. But the fact of the matter is, I know this is a crazy, zany thing to say, but they are still puted at. at least are allies. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's not a good time right now.

China is not an ally. That's all I'm saying. Let me come in here and get a comment from Martha on this because you're in Western Canada. And I do wonder, given the way that Prime Minister Carney has been dealing with Alberta Premier Danielle Smith, I wonder how much national unity plays in this deal with China in as much as the canola farmers in Saskatchewan are going to be very happy with this deal. the auto manufacturers and auto parts people in Ontario are going to be decidedly less happy with this deal. Is this simply a case of the Prime Minister seeing rising separatist tide, not simply? But is this part of the equation here that he wants to do something about alienation and Western separatism?

And therefore, he's favoring the Saskatchewan-based industry over the Ontario-based industry. I actually don't think so, Steve. And by the way, it's Alberta, Saskatchewan. and as we've seen other agricultural sectors, I don't think the Prime Minister would sacrifice any significant part of Canada's economy for another significant part of Canada's economy. I don't think he's getting into bed with China. I think that's way overstating it, Tony.

He's worked an arrangement with a very significant economic partner of Canada's that will, we hope, allow us to diversify our economic activity, which we know we need to do, show the Americans, or at least the American administration, that we are, in fact, supposed to be looking at diversifying our economy. I think that's the right thing to do.

Let's put things into perspective. We're talking, I think, 49,000 electric vehicles. How many millions, like almost two million were sold in Canada last year, I think is the number. But we're down. We're way down. from everybody else. Let's put our numbers into perspective. I just saw that, you know, whereas China has some portion of LNG Canada, I just read this morning that Shell and another

one of the partners is actually now looking to unload their ownership in LNG Canada. I didn't see that with China. And in fact, I saw part of it was we want to have engagement. I mean, I just, I think, I think lumping this into, oh, we're getting into bed with China, one is not a good description. I think that's too much. And I do think that to your point, Steve, I don't think the prime minister would sacrifice any particular sector. I think what he might be trying to do is to balance a little bit the sectors that are at issue, right? Like, you know, when we put on those 100% tariffs on EVs, There's no question that actually hurt a number of our significant economic sectors.

My sense is, you know, the MOUE did with Alberta was, I think, much was very significant in terms of the relationship with Alberta, relationship with Western Canada. I think my sense is that this arrangement with China is really much more, we need to look after Canada's best interests. And this is part of how we do it in the grand scheme of things. Okay. Let me just take a pause for the moment because I don't know if you can tell, but there's a beautiful light that's right here, illuminating my little puss here. And these lights don't stay on for nothing. We actually need ad revenue to keep the lights on. As a company that is Canadian at its core, Bruce Power spends 95% of its budget in Canada, helping build stronger communities while shaping the future of clean energy. Bruce Power's proposed expansion, it's called the Bruce C project, is about more than adding clean megawatts. It's a commitment to Ontario's future.

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Hi, everybody, Steve here. I'm just jumping into the middle of the show here for a second to say that the next part of the show that we taped, we did before Mark Carney's historic speech in Switzerland. We will discuss that speech in detail on next week's edition of the Paken podcast on our World On Edge feature with Janice Stein. But for now, here is our discussion on worsening relations with the U.S. and to hope that the prime minister would go more elbows up again.

Looks like he did. Okay, back to the show. Okay, Peter, are you first on this? And you referenced this in our last segment, and I want to follow up on it now. The liberals won the last election back in April, very much campaigning on elbows up, demanding that Trump show us the respect that we're entitled to as a sovereign nation. and I wonder how much evidence of elbows up you are seeing lately. Well, I think that this deal with China is one example of it.

I say I do believe that the PM's kind of overall plan or the government's plan, which we talked about earlier for moving the country, you know, away from so much vulnerability with the U.S. is kind of cohesive and strong. It's going to take a long time. And governments in the last 20 years in Canada have not been very good at being operational, delivering on promises. There's a lot of photo ops in Canadian politics, not a lot of delivery at the end of the day. And all you got to do is, you know, take the streetcar in Toronto to understand, you know, how difficult, the difference between the

promise and the delivery on a lot of services. So that's one thing. I think that the other, for me, the problem has been, and Steve, you know, you and I've spoken about it. I feel that like every other Western leader, Mr. Carney has been too, how shall I put it, too deferential to Donald Trump. I don't think he should have apologized for the ad that the Ontario government put on the air, even though it wasn't a federal government ad. I don't think as a principal, you should apologize for people telling the truth. I think that Trump... This is the Ronald Reagan ad, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that the Doug Ford ad, if you will, to give him this due. And I think that it was, you know, I think it was the right thing to do.

I don't know for the right thing to do, but there was certainly no need for the Prime Minister of Canada to apologize for it. And I think there's this notion of whenever anyone approaches Donald Trump, you've got to step on eggshells, where you've got to flatter his ego. I think it's just fed the monster. I think it's just increased the size and appetite of the monster. Right now, I think that Donald Trump is intoxicated on power. I think he's particularly intoxicated on military power, which is sort of ironic, given that he had a sort of anti-military bent in his first term and throughout his political life. I think a turning point for him was the sort of, was actually the bombing of the Iranian nuclear facilities, which turned out be only sort of partially successful, which I think intoxicated him to a lot of, you know, military belligerents elsewhere. And it's coming to a head, you know, I'm sure the first of many, in terms of what will happen in Greenland.

But yeah, so I view, I understand that it's tough to stand up to Trump, particularly if you're alone. And I think that I'd hoped, and I'm still hopeful, that the prime minister with a strong network of international connections can, and the respect that he seems to have, you know, from our other allies and other countries. can play a role in kind of creating the sense of, you know, collective solidarity to fight Trumpism. Because Trump and Trumpism are a menace are a menace to so many of us. And I think that, you know, I look today, I saw Karas Starmor finally standing up to Trump on the issue of Greenland specifically, but more broadly, you know, Trump's threat of tariffs for countries that are supportive of Denmark. And what they need to do...

The British Prime Minister has been the most sycophantic of all the Western leaders, I suspect. And I think they need to... And I think that's a way it needs to go. Now, it's very difficult when you're talking about the greatest superpower in world history in the hands of, I think, a demented sicko. Not to put too fine a point at it. Look at the letter this morning that was revealed that he sent to the Norwegian Prime Minister saying, basically saying, I've invaded Greenland, which, by the way,

is not part of Norway, because I didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, this is a sickness we're dealing with. And, you know, American voters had a chance to do something about it. They didn't. The Republican Party had a chance to do something about it. They didn't. Now it's the entire world's problem. And those of us closest to the Americans are feeling it most acutely.

Tony, what's your view on whether this prime minister of Canada needs to get the elbows up a little more? Yeah, I think that the prime minister of Canada, one of the reasons why any prime minister of Canada, is elected is based on how they can handle and deal with the American Colossus as our next door neighbor. That was true in terms of determining the fate of John Defenbaker and Lester Pearson and it goes on and on. But you know that as someone who is a student of history, Steve. So yeah, I mean, he has to come up with a solution. He was elected by saying, I can get us to a better place. and look out for Canada's interests better than the other guy.

But would you want him to be chippier and his dealings with Donald Trump, publicly chippier, in a way that Kirstarmer clearly was not until just very recently? The reason I can't answer that is that I don't have enough information. I don't know what's going on with our meetings in the White House. I don't understand why at some moment it seems like Prime Minister Carney is, as Peter mentioned, is is accommodating Donald Trump and Donald Trump's musings saying that he is the most consequential president in our lifetime and blah-b-di-blah. And then on the other moment, he's hedging his bets and saying we might send troops to

Greenland. I'm looking at these things as discrete activity, but and wondering whether it's all part of a strategy. if it's if it's just tactical chess moves on a on a chess board without any strategy that is a problem but i just don't know i don't know what he's saying or doing behind the scenes even neither is anybody else on the panel i know i take your point on that but but having said that uh jean chan well understood that a pointed comment a bit critical about the united states from time to time was very good for domestic politics in canada and you don't see mark carney playing that card

certainly not in the way that John Kretchen did. Why do you figure? Well, I think that the only explanation I can offer is that there are things going on behind the scenes where he doesn't want to upset the apple cart because it would upset a deal. That's the only explanation I can offer. Okay. Martha, what do you think? Well, first, I think Donald Trump is already proving to be the most consequential president

of our lifetime. I don't necessarily think that was meant as a compliment, but Trump might not have recognized it as such. I, you know, I have the privilege of being a part of the expert group on Canada-U.S. relations. And I can tell you, Tony, that there are times when we are given the information about what's going on that really there's a reason why it isn't hugely public, partly because of the personality that is Donald Trump. But my sense, if there was any, you know, elbows up, this trip to China, it was a pretty big elbows up move. I mean, you don't have to say chippy things to do what you think is right for your country. And although the chippy might make us feel better, if it actually takes away from what's in our

best interest, then I would actually say don't do that. But Trump endorsed his trip to China. It did. Which so if you can just let me get to. that for now, but our group with lots of really interesting conversations about what should happen next, how we should manage, you know, a big part of the concern was this trip to China and the more we got out of it, the more it was, ooh, that's going to poke the bear, wonder how the bear is going to react. When Trump came out relatively positive about it,

it was a bit surprising because frankly, we thought he would react. negatively. But I also think this is just for now, right? He's got Greenland going. Yeah. So who knows why Trump would have actually said something good about our deal with China. Remember, Venezuela, the biggest customer for Venezuelan oil has been China, right? They have been producing close to a million barrels a day. So Canada goes to China. The United States, basically, basically, diverts that oil from Venezuela away from China. Now, China gets a lot of oil. It's not a huge problem for China.

But for Canada, there were probably some pretty interesting diplomatic reasons why the United States wanted to make sure China didn't get that oil for a number of other, not just the value of the oil, believe me. To go to China and say, well, you know, we're Canada. We produce a lot of oil. You know, we're talking about getting more access to the Pacific. let's talk. Now, if you were Trump and you just looked at that, you'd think that was a pretty pissy thing for Canada to do. I think that's a pretty elbows up kind of a thing, right? A pretty

elbows up kind of a message. I think Trump has a lot more going on with Greenland right now. I wouldn't be surprised if as he starts seeing the numbers and he starts realizing that Canada actually is, you know, putting those elbows up in its actions, even if it's not a lot of in its words, he will change his tune. And also, let's see what happens if we send troops up to Denmark. Well, that's the, yeah, that's the next thing. Peter, I do want to suss you out a little bit more on what you would like to hear from this prime minister in as much as I was in a setting about a week ago and bumped into a, and I won't identify because it was a kind of a not for attribution conversation, but it was a Toronto liberal member of parliament. I'll just say that much. And I put it

to this member of parliament that the you know the campaign rhetoric we weren't seeing so much of anymore and it didn't look like elbows up was a was a thing now looked like it was a kind of a campaign slogan to get elected on but where's the evidence of it today this was before the china deal was announced and he looked at me and he said well what do you expect what do you want him to do i mean what what more should he be doing so i thought those are reasonable questions and i'm going to put them to i'm going to put them to you peter what do you want to get from him i wrote a piece in the star uh about two weeks ago which I encourage everyone to look up if they haven't read it yet, about actually how Mark Carney could take a leaf out of the Franklin Roosevelt book.

And actually, you know, during the dark days, both of the Great Depression and the Second World War, Roosevelt established an unprecedented kind of dialogue between a president and American citizens about explaining in very simple, very concrete terms what his administration was doing in both of these crises. And I think that, you know, Mark Carney is still enjoying a high. honeymoon. His personal numbers are early in the 62, 63%, 20% ahead of where the party standings are. People feel a sense of confidence in him. He exudes a kind of competence and a sort of self-confidence, which is generally a good thing, except the rubber hasn't hit the road yet. We're still in the early months. Things are going to get tough. I mean, you know, we had a bumper year with the stock

market last year, that can't continue. We're going to start to feel the economic consequences of having this mafia lord living next door to us and shaking us down every 10 days. And when we start feeling those economic consequences, that's when it's going to be important for people to still be on side, for people to have patience about what the government's doing, and for people to, you know, he's going to have to call on Canadians for sacrifice in the years, months in the years moving forward. Don't kid yourself. This isn't the shooting war, but this is a war by any name, by any other name. This is an economic war at the very least, and an existential war for our survival. And unless Canadians feel that they're in on the game plan, that they're in the loop, they're

going to get impatient and they're not going to want to sacrifice. And I think it's important for the PM to really talk straight with Canadians about what's at stake, about what the government's doing. And I actually happen to believe the government's doing a lot, but I think he hasn't really taken the time to stitch the pieces together for Canadians to see and understand. And I think that's what he needs to do. I'm hopeful he'll do it. I believe that now, coming back from this whirlwind international trip, is a good moment to do it. But I worry a bit that, you know, part of what we elected him for is that he's, you know, as he said, quote, I'm not a career politician. He said that. And I think that that this kind of sort of Uber buttoned down CEO aura, which we like about him,

is actually can be a problem because at the end of the day, he's not a CEO. He's a leader. He's our country's leader. And so he needs to make the emotional appeal to Canadians that he was tying in the competent aspect of his leadership. And I'm not sure that he, I don't know him, I can't speak for him, but I don't get the sense that he really fully appreciates that. My guess would be that he'd be like that liberal MP you spoke to, but would say, hey, we're doing it all. What do you want from us? No, no. That's three quarters of the job. Now he needs to the other quarter, which is to explain. Sorry. I read your star column and enjoyed it very much. And in fact, I plucked this little segment out of it to read back to you because it was a whole lot tougher than what you just were. So here we go. You wrote in the star on the 8th of January, the prime minister's mealy-mouthed reaction to the illegal invasion of Venezuela is the most

glaring and recent example of this mixed messaging, a timid, confusing, fence-straddling response that lacked the moral clarity of Mexico's shine bomb or Brazil's Lula, Louise, excuse me, Inacio, Lula de Silva. So, oh, yeah, I absolutely want him to be tougher. I do. I want, well, I think, like I said, about the, the, the conservative, or rather the Ontario government TV ad, like speaking the truth, shouldn't be something that you measure and weigh in your mind and refuse to do. You shouldn't have to bite your tongue when it's important to speak the truth. And I think that Lula and Shinebaum, who have as much at stake as Canada, had the guts to say the truth about the really dangerous U.S. action in Venezuela

and what it says about how the violation of international sovereignty and international law of sovereign borders is a threat to everyone. Absolutely, I feel he should have been more outspoken on that. Don't get me started because I don't believe in politics as usual. Don't get me started on Pierre Paulyev's statement, which was a... No, no, that's another one. But honestly, yeah, after I stand by what I said, you should have been tougher. And by the way, that was my toughest line about him in the article.

I also used... Which is why I quoted it. And I also use the same phrase on the red passport, which you plugged earlier. And I'm happy to plug it again. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. I want to get... Let me just... We'll do one more round here.

and that's on this most intriguing appointment of Mark Carney to be on the so-called Board of Peace in the Middle East. This is this group that Donald Trump, pretty blue-ribbon panel, I have to say. You know, Tony Blair's on it. Some of the highest-ranking American advisors to the president are on it. These are all people who are engaged in this process to try to find a way forward for the Middle East. Tony, when you saw this appointment of Mark Carney, who's agreed to do it, agreed to be on the the board of peace. What'd you think? Well, is one of the strings attached to this, you guys can help me out on this. You have to pay a billion dollars or something to be on the

board or something like that. Is that reporting? I had not heard that. I did see that, Tony. I don't think that Carney has put up a billion dollars to participate. Well, I, not personally, but it might be the taxpayer who does. I don't know, but that that was one question rolling around in my head. No, I mean, look, I will say this. this, you know, in a spirit of ecumenism or something. But, you know, look, if the president of the United States personally ask you to be on this reconstruction board, if I were the prime minister, I wouldn't have said no. So that's fine. I mean, and, and hopefully it'll do some good where, you know, and it means that he will be in a forum that the president cares about and hopefully can be positive. And

and it'll help Gazans and Palestinians and Israelis and everybody else who is mired in that conflict. So that's fine. Again, it's, I just want to know what the strategy is, folks. Like, okay, you're saying yes to that, but you're in China. Now you're in Catter, which is where the Muslim Brotherhood hang out. So just tell me what the strategy is because it doesn't make sense to me. I keep scratching my head every time Mark Carney does something, wondering, What, where is this leading? So there has to be an answer at some point. If you're the coach of a, of a professional sports team, you don't run out and publicize your strategy.

Like, I know we want, and Peter, I totally agree. I think that, I think the prime minister could do much more. And you use the Franklin Roosevelt example. I use the example of world leaders during COVID. I think that is really useful, not as proper. But just to get people to understand and to be a part of what we're doing, and I think you're absolutely right, people are going to have to, this is not going to be easy. And there will be sacrifices that need to be made. And so the prime minister needs Canadians to be on board. But, you know, we are not in normal times, right? I would actually be pretty concerned if our prime minister and our key people, we are not in normal times, right? I would actually be pretty concerned if our prime minister and our key people, in the United States right now, and there are lots of them, and there are lots of people doing some really, you know, having important discussions, I would be pretty concerned if they came

home and just said, and by the way, this is our strategy. I don't, I actually think the times require a little bit more of a thoughtful approach to this, recognizing who we're dealing with. And I have to, you know, we have to have a little bit of faith that the people who are engaged in these discussions, even if they're not telling us the play-by-play, that they are actually engaging in these discussions and these activities thoughtfully and with purpose. Okay. Peter, let me get a comment from you on this Board of Peace Business. You obviously know there's a, well, I would think a pretty significant group of people who think this whole process is illegitimate.

Yeah, I mean, listen. By the Prime Minister of Canada agreeing to be on it, they wonder about that. I think that Donald Trump has a kind of reverse Midas touch. Everything he touches turns to shit. Let's be honest, okay? He is rapacious. He is appetite only grows. And what he said about Gaza, he's basically said, and he put his son-in-law on this board, by the way, to help make it sure it happens.

He said that he wants to ethnically cleanse Gaza and grab the land to build resorts. This is very frightening. I know the World Bank and others seem to be involved in this. I'm very skeptical about it and I would be very deeply, deeply uncomfortable about our prime minister joining something. If it's based on what I know about this thing and the billion dollar entry fee, I would be very, very skeptical about our prime minister joining this thing. I'm happy you're having our prime minister to be closer than further away. These are very difficult times.

I'm happier having him be more involved and more involved. the table than being sitting. This is what I might disagree a bit, because I think the PM needs to be more involved with other leaders to stand up, to stand up and push back to Trump. I don't think it's a mutually exclusive thing. I'm just wondering what this has to do with Canada's standard of living. Well, you know, our relation with the U.S. and the world at large has to do with Canada's standard of living.

And I should also say that when we have a, uh, country, our neighbor and the largest trading partner, with whom we are economically integrated, sliding into a sort of authoritarian, fascist state where the rule of law doesn't apply, where the strong grab, the strong and wealthy grab whatever they can, then that has a direct impact on our standard. Lest we leave everybody with the impression that the entire world 24-7 is going to hell, although maybe it is, we do like to finish off each show with a little feature we call good on you in which all of our participants look at something that transpired in politics

at some point over the last couple of weeks and say, hey, you know what? That was pretty good. Good on you for doing that. Tony Clement, get us started. Who gets your good on you this week? Well, I'm doing this from a little bit of a different angle, but I want to commend the federal court of appeal for their decision, which confirmed that the Trudeau government's use of the Emergencies Act was unconstitutional. And that is very important for human rights in this country. It's very important for those who want to dissent from a government. And it's very important to get some sight lines and some barriers in place so that when

government tries to act using an emergency, that there are constraints on government. So that's going to be good for a future conservative government, for the current liberal government, for any government in the future to not, you know, tear apart our rights just because they've decided at using a situation that they have not explained to Canadians and saying this is an emergency, therefore these rights, these charter rights, these constitutional rights don't apply anymore. So that was a very important decision. It's not a conservative decision or a liberal decision. It's just an important decision. And let me go on record and say that if the Mark Carney government decides not to appeal that decision to the Supreme Court of Canada, then I would say, congratulations. That's a good decision, Mark Carney. Good on you for the justice system in Canada from Tony Clement.

Martha, what say you? Well, good on us for having a country that still actually relies on a justice system. I would, my good on you goes to the increasing number of Republicans in the United States who are questioning their president. There, we saw more, the tariffs, there were, there's very little opposition, right? The ICE activity has prompted, you know, Minneapolis has prompted more Republicans to say, whoa, wait a second. This, the rhetoric now and the actions with respect to Greenland, more and more, finally, finally saying wait wait a minute we can't we can't do this and so are are there enough of them not nearly yet um but we we globally need more of them to stand up for exactly the rule of law for the

role of the courts for you know abiding by international norms of you don't just invade countries um so my good on you goes to to those who are showing courage in that environment to stand up. And I dearly hope we see more of that. I know with interest, Joe Rogan, who's been pretty supportive of this president, called ICE's activities in Minnesota, Gestapo-like. And Marjorie Taylor Green is definitely off the Trump bandwagon. And you wonder if that is, as Steve Allen said, probably 80 years ago, this could be the start of something big. I don't know. We'll see. Okay, Peter Donolo, who gets your good on you?

So I'm good on you. I'm also going to look abroad, and I'm going to look at British politicians who in recent decades have not had exactly covered themselves in glory and both parties, I should say. But I will give them credit this week. Yesterday, the leaders of the Conservative Party, Nigel Traffaraj and his Reform Party, they came out in a united voice with the government to push back against Trump on Greenland and on the tariffs. And I think that's an important example. I hope our political parties in Canada would be inspired by this example to put the country first ahead of either provincial or federal political interest. It's easy to gripe. It's easy to complain and whine. But, you know, the people want the country to come first, and it's good to see a kind of closing of ranks and putting the country first when there's an external threat. Great. Friends, one of the things that I have been encouraged to do by many people who actually,

send us emails and comment on this program is to do some of that work here. And I think maybe starting now, I'm going to read one email that I happened to get this past week and then get you guys to comment on it because this was about our conversation we had a couple weeks ago on Zoran Mamdani, becoming the new mayor of New York City and his reaction to what was transpiring in Venezuela. And we got this note from Edwin Janice, who says, I'm a young professional living in Windsor, Ontario. And he says, I was deeply, deeply disappointed by what was a collective dismissal of New York Mayor Zara and Mamdani's remarks on the recent events in Venezuela, characterizing them as arrogant, out of touch, beyond his sphere of influence, and merely the result

of performative impulse found in younger politicians. As a young person, I found it particularly disappointing to hear from the three of you, I think he means Tony, Martha, and me, dismissing Mom Donnie. Yeah, you were not guilty. You weren't here for that. But he says, you dismiss Mamdani's commentary on the basis of his age and political stance, suggesting that he more or less should stay in his lane. Your reaction felt at odds with the many occasions on which I have heard you encourage members of the public, especially younger people, to participate in political life, to share their perspectives and to stand up for what they believe in. Mamdani's remarks are not only legitimate, but entirely consistent with the democratic engagement you frequently champion.

I share my thoughts, not to provoke a response, but to simply offer my perspective as an engaged listener, regardless of how I feel about the recent episode, I will continue to follow and support your work with the same appreciation and respect I have long held. And I thought that was such a lovely criticism civilly done that I thought I'd bring that out there for you guys to comment on. Martha, do you want to say anything to Edwin? I just think, Edwin, that was a fantastic letter. I do still have some concerns about Mandani and his, I think my focus was a little bit on, you know, promises being made but not necessarily being able to pay for them. That remains my bigger concern. But your note, incredibly appreciated, incredibly appreciated your tone, your tone and your in. the fact that you actually wanted to send that, even if we disagreed completely. Thank you.

Like I just, and we don't, by the way. But man, we could do with a lot more of that kind of engagement. So thank you for that. And I would just say you did make me think because I don't, I actually didn't think that I thought of him in terms of his age. I actually thought about more, I hope to think that I thought more about the content, but you actually made me think, gee, did I give that impression? And if I did, I feel badly about it. So you've accomplished, you know, kudos for it and also made us better at what we do. Tony. Edwin, how dare you? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, that points well taken. Take them seriously. And we'll try to do better. Wasn't that your New Year's resolution? That was my New Year's resolution. Yeah, do better.

Exactly right. Peter, you were not one of the egregious three who overstepped their skis on this one, according to Edwin, but have you got a thought on that? Yeah, Edward ought to run for public office. He sounds like he has a lot to contribute, and more important. He also sounds like he's got the right constructive civil tone that we could use more of in politics in Canada. Amen. Amen. I want to thank Peter Donolo for coming on as our guest this week. Tony and Martha is great to see you again. We got one little piece of business to do just before we leave, and that is we want to remind everybody that we have started a Patreon page here.

I mean, it's really important to all of us that this show remain free so that anybody can watch it whenever they want, either on YouTube watching it or listening to it on Apple or Spotify. However, if there are those of you who want to support what we're doing here to help keep the lights on and become part of the Paken podcast, community, get some interesting stuff online as well, some, what do they call it, web exclusive videos, that kind of stuff that not everybody else will see. We encourage you to go to patreon.com slash the Paken podcast and join us, as many have in the last couple of weeks

since we announced that. Many people have done that, and we are really grateful for that. So thank you. And if you do that right now, I've got an exclusive interview with Robert Picardo, who is in the Star Trek franchise and has... has been, yeah, absolutely. And he's been, you better, you better sign up for this, Tony. Because he's been in Toronto, he's been living in Toronto. It's funny, I was downtown last week, I bumped into him on the street. He lives in Toronto now because he's shooting Starfleet Academy.

Yeah. Yep. So I got a really lovely interview with him. Tom Wilson, the great musician from Hamilton, who I'm telling you, want to see an intense interview? We talked about the fact that this guy was an alcoholic for years and years and how he has managed to turn his life around. He's very public and very open about his life struggles and about how much better his life is now that he hasn't had a drink in so many years. So that's a really important conversation about how to beat addiction. So anyway, patreon.com forward slash the Paken podcast.

All of our past episodes are archived at stevepaken.com. And with that, peace and love, everybody. And we'll see you next time. Peace and love. Bye-bye.