The Paikin Podcast - Governor Gretchen Whitmer: American Violence, “Tariff Madness,” and the Future of the Left

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer joins Steve Paikin at a live podcast recording to discuss Canadian-American relations, ending the “tariff madness,” the rise of political violence, Trump’s claim “the radicals on the left are the problem,’ where the Democrats go from here, Ezra Klein’s concerns about “left wing pessimism,” and the possibility of the Detroit Tigers meeting the Toronto Blue Jays in the ALCS.Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastX: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social

From our vantage point north of the 49th parallel, it sometimes feels as if your country is on the brink of some kind of civil war. It looks like you all hate each other and want at each other's throats. Is that a misimpression? Well, I don't hate people who don't agree with me. The Paken Podcast One-on- On Ones, presented by Beer Canada. Hi, everybody. Well, I had a pretty exciting opportunity last week to interview somebody who has very much been in the news over the last several years.

She is in her second term as the governor of Michigan and came to Toronto to speak to the Empire Club to share a message that's quite different from President Donald Trump's. She doesn't like what Trump is doing with his tariffs. It's not helping her economy in Michigan. It's not helping our economy, obviously, in Canada. and she says, frankly, every tariff on us is a boost for China over there. She is trying hard to get along with the president better. She thinks the Democrats will get their act together in time for the next presidential election. But she made a bit of news during our conversation

when she suggested she didn't necessarily think she would be in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination job. Many people found that interesting. We talked about America's obsession with guns, reaching out in a more civil fashion to political opponents. Even the possibility of her Detroit Tigers and Canada's Toronto Blue Jays meeting in the Major League Baseball playoffs. Governor Gretchen Whitmer from the great state of Michigan

coming up next on the Paken podcast one-on-ones. Let's start with this. Why don't we start with the news of the day? You had a meeting with Doug Ford this morning? Anything come of it we should know about? You know what? Premier Ford and I have, he was one of the first meetings I had when I became governor seven years ago, and our terms have kind of been at the same exact time, and he's just, he's been a joy to work with. He's tough,

he's strong, but he is a delight. So I have a great deal of respect for him, and I've got nothing to tell you about. That's very disappointing. Well, okay. Other than he walked me into a press scrum, and he said, don't worry the Canadian press, they're really nice. And I mean, he kind of set me up. I know that you two kind of famously disagree about line five. He would like it back open and you are not a fan of it. Did you resolve that this morning in your hour-long conversation? I just want to get it out of the water.

You know, the Great Lakes are 20% of the world's fresh surface water. And it is our shared responsibility to protect it. And I've been working really hard to try to get the line out of the water because I worry that it's, if there was a mishap, it would be devastating to our mutual economies and our way of life. And that's been my perspective. So that's the nature of the differences.

And no, we didn't talk about that or resolved that will probably not be resolved in either of our political lifetime. Would you go for a bypass? I don't mean a heart bypass. I mean a bypass of the line. Like I've said, it's always about getting it out of the water for me. So whatever, however that could look like, I'm open to it,

but I want to get it out of the water. How about, I see Peter Bethlehemphalvey here, the Minister of Finance for Ontario, and I think before you leave today, he'd like to sell you some nuclear reactors. Would you be open to buying some? You know, one of the things, so we did talk about energy,

and, you know, it is, without question, a huge crisis of need when we think about AI and data centers and semiconductor production, et cetera. So it is something that, you know, we are very mindful, We're bringing back online, we'll be the first state in the nation, to bring a nuclear facility back online. And a lot of people say it can't be done.

We're going to prove that it can be done responsibly and produce clean energy that is affordable and reliable. And I think Canada's a wonderful example that that is possible. And I think we're going to pursue some follow-up conversations on, were the SMR? SMR, smart modular reactors, yeah, so you're open to buying one. I don't have a checkbook on me, but yeah, I mean, I think we should. Tried. Okay, I tried. Let me follow up on something you said in your speech, which is that you suggest Donald Trump doesn't understand that every time he puts a tariff on a Canadian good, he's essentially, you know, doing China's bidding. How do you think we should try to make him understand that? If I could answer that question, we would have fixed this problem by now. You know, I'm continuing every time I have an opportunity to go to the White House,

and I've been there a handful of times this year. I do chat with him and his cabinet and his chief of staff. Not every governor has that kind of access. I'm going to use it every time I get it to try to make the case. I continue to be told that we're making progress. I just want it resolved because this really is a dire moment in manufacturing. The Canadian-American relationship was built over generations, and the amount of damage that has been done in such a small period of time

is just so incredibly disheartening and destructive. And I worry how long it's going to take to earn back that trust and confidence and pride in that long-term relationship. It starts with stopping the chaos around ever-changing tariffs and locking in and saying, okay, this is how we're going to work together. And I think the USMCA is, we should go back to that and stop changing policy capriciously. When he talks about you in public, he's actually quite insulting and rude about you. When he meets with you in private, is he any more charming?

My first term, we had a very public, not great relationship. This term, I'll be honest with you. After the last election, I worked really hard to support his opponent. And I kind of went into a place where I had to turn off all the media and the television for a little while and escape it. And then I figured, you know, I got two years left as governor of Michigan. I have got to try to get as much done for the people in Michigan as I can. And I have gotten threatened to be kidnapped and killed because I did what I thought the right thing for Michigan was.

I have been criticized for showing up at the White House under this administration to get a big investment in McComb County, which is just north of Windsor. And I'm going to show up. I don't put myself first. I'm going to put the people of Michigan first. And the people of Michigan are counting on us to undo this tariff madness. And that's why every time I get the chance, I'm going to make that case until we're successful. This was not, since you referenced it, let me follow up, the attempt on your life, the attempt to kidnap you. I mean, this was a very fully thought out plan.

Have you done anything differently? Have you questioned the advisability of going into public life as a result of that threat? So I ran for re-election in 2024, and a common question I got was, why do you want to keep doing this? There were 30 recall attempts against me. We had a polar vortex in my first three weeks as governor. We had incredible flooding in Midland, Michigan, where we had to evacuate 10,000 people in the middle of the night in the middle of a pandemic.

Oh, yeah, we had a pandemic. There were demonstrations for racial justice in the wake of George Floyd's murder that we had to navigate. And then there was a plot to kidnap and kill me. So it was an understandable question when people said, why do you want to keep doing this? But for me, I love this job. I love the people of Michigan.

I am proud to be the governor, and I know what I do matters. And if I didn't run and stay in it, it would kind of be saying, all that stuff has impacted and turned me away. And that's not who I am. I'm going to stand in the line on behalf of the people of Michigan. I'm proud, stand in the breach, and I'm proud to be there.

I've enjoyed doing it. But, you know, there are days where this job is very heavy. Two days ago when we had a shooting at a church in Grand Blank, Michigan, on top of a federal shutdown, and I'm trying to wrap up the budget at the state level. I mean, it's heavy. It's been a hard week, and so that's why being here with all of you was such a joyful opportunity for me. Thank you. I want to delicately go into this issue of the shooting that took place the other day because I wonder whether things like that still have the capacity to horrify Americans because it seems to happen every day.

And I think one thing I'd like to ask you, and maybe you can help us understand, what is it about America? and guns because our countries are so close together and in many ways similar not in others but in many ways similar but this does not happen here with the regularity with which it happens in the states

help us get what's going on there the United States is the number one killer of kids of American children are guns we're the only country in the world where that's true Why have you been incapable of doing anything about it for 250 years? The Second Amendment was grounded in, I mean, it was written a long, long time ago

when people were using muskets. Weapons of today are everywhere in America, and the crisis is one that we see play out over and over again. One of the things that we were able to do in Michigan, as a result of the shooting that happened near Michigan State's campus, the students brought to bear incredible pressure on the legislature, and it was a Democratic-run legislature for the first time in 40 years, and we took action to require background checks, red flag laws, and secure storage. These are improvements, but those are important steps, but we get a gun problem in the United States of America. And it's going to take federal legislation, take a federal law in order to change that. And right now, there's not a Congress that is interested or capable of doing that. Not right now, but even under President Biden or President Obama, it didn't happen then either.

this just part of the price of admission to be an American? You're going to have to put up with shootings on a daily basis? It shouldn't be. Agreed. When it comes to, I'll follow up with this. President Trump has said that in his view, most of the violence in your country is on the left. He says, the radicals on the left are the problem. What do you think? It's not true. It's just not true. Violence is not owned by one party. Good ideas are not owned by one party. This is an issue that we have seen continue to grow. And as one of the first most recent high profile targets of political violence, I can tell you, they were not inspired by the left, right?

I'm not excusing any of it. None of it's acceptable. But when we ratchet up the rhetoric, it makes it more likely that there will be more, that it will inspire others to follow suit, to take action, to use their weapons against their fellow Americans. It is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible thing.

In the wake of this recent shooting at the Church of Latter-day Saints in Michigan, there were all sorts of people with theories online, spouting off different things that had no basis in fact that actually were incredibly dangerous for law enforcement. A man showed up the next day on the same site with a gun in his car. He was arrested on the site, but I was in town getting a briefing from the FBI when that happened. And so it is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous for people to use heated rhetoric and to accuse one group or another, when it is not one group or another, it is an American problem that

every person of goodwill should be able to say is wrong, is unacceptable, and every leader should be ready to do something about it. From our vantage point north of the 49th parallel, it sometimes feels as if your country is on the brink of some kind of civil war. Now, it's not going to be the blue and the gray like back in the 1860s, but it looks like you all hate each other and want at each other's throats. Is that a misimpression? Well, I don't hate people who don't agree with me.

In fact, I've learned a lot from people who don't agree with me, which is why every single day I try to model the behavior of making a seat at the table, not just for people who see the world the same way. In fact, I don't learn as much when I'm talking to people who I agree with everything on. I don't have a corner on every good idea. I am willing and eager to learn and to do right by the people that I serve, and that means listening. I travel the state of Michigan. I talk to people in my state. After the plot, you know, it's a little less comfortable for me to do that. I'll just be honest. I don't feel as comfortable walking into a big room with people that I don't know that I've never met before.

I'm just, I can feel it. I'm more alert. I'm more taking it in. but I still do it because I know this. The average person is not the troll online, is not the talking head that is trying to get rating. The average person is a good, hardworking person who wants a fair shot and wants their government to work as hard as they do and to be as good, if not better than they are.

And that's what I always remember when I'm doing this. Of course it can be depressing when you see the hyper-polarization. And it's not limited to the United States. It's unique in the United States, but it's not limited to the United States. And that's why I take my role as a subnational leader of the 10th largest state in the country, one of the purplest state, probably the purplest of the top 10 big states, to take every opportunity to tell my Canadian friends and neighbors. That's not who we are.

Americans love Canadians. We rely on this relationship. That's why I'm here. That's why I wake up every day and show up the way that I do because it's not okay. And I've got to do my part to fight against us feeling like it because it is okay. I plucked a quote from one of your speeches, though, where you said political extremism has impacted all of us

tearing apart old friends and tight-knit families. Is there a cure for this? Well, that's what I'm seeking to show people. people that we can disagree. We can disagree vehemently and still have a beer afterward. Or maybe not. You know, I think it's okay to have arguments. It's okay to have speech with which you disagree. But in a democracy, you accept that and you move on to the next thing. Or you just remove yourself from the conversation. You don't pick up a gun. You don't threaten someone. You don't take away their right to say whatever thing you don't agree with.

that's fundamental to a democracy. And I worry that there are people in power who don't believe that. And that's why I'm going to do everything I can to fight to protect those rights. It's been very easy for many Canadians to look at the Republican Party and say, you know, a pox on your house, you're terrible because of what the president is trying to do to this country. But on the other hand, there is that very funny Will Rogers line where he said, I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat.

A member of the Democratic Party, yeah. Which raises the question, you know, is your party capable of getting its act together to offer a decent alternative? Yes, of course. You know, something that is really depressing, but that I have to point out, sort of like eight months into a 48-month term. You almost said 48-year. And there are people who are... No one lives forever yet. And we have term limits, and we will continue to have term limits.

Do you think he'll respect those term limits? I don't know, but the law will, so I'm not, I'm confident of that. But I think that that's important for perspective. There are a plethora of talented people in the Democratic Party across the country. I've got so many wonderful colleagues who I have deep respect for, and they certainly would put up a very compelling alternative. But it's early on. And, you know, I'm not going to criticize any other Democrat for how they're showing up.

Every one of us has to show up. Every one of us has to make the case. And every one of us is from a different part of the country. And we have important voices. So I'm glad to see lots of voices. At some point, it'll whittle down, and we will have a great alternative. We'll get back to our interview with the 49th governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer right after this. But first, we got a little ad read from Beer Canada.

Canada, as we all know, is in an affordability crisis. It's ongoing and no doubt it affects you. Canadians have the right to know whether their governments are making life more or less affordable. The organization representing Canada's brewers wonder if you knew that in Canada, 46% of the price of beer is government taxation. Yes, Canada imposes higher taxes on beer than any of the other great beer nations. higher than Germany, Belgium, Mexico, the U.S., the U.K., Brazil, Denmark, and Ireland. At 46% it's higher than any other country in the G7 as well.

And Canada's already very high beer taxes go up annually and automatically. Beer Canada says the powers that be hope you won't notice. They call it sneaky and they think that automatic is not democratic. And now that you know you can do something about it. Beer Canada would like you to help stop this practice of auto. automatic beer tax hikes. So go to this website, hereforbeer.ca. That's here forbeer.ca. And ask yourself, why does the best beer nation in the world have the worst beer taxation? That's a message in the interest of fairness and transparency from our friends at Beer Canada.

And now back to our interview with Gretchen Whitmer. Several years ago, I found myself in this same chair and Governor Bush of Florida. I was wondering who the other two governors were that beat me here. So, Deb Bush, who was the other? Who's the other one? Can't remember. It might have been a long time ago. Anyway, I remember the very first question I asked him was,

so are you running for president? And his answer to me was, what, no foreplay? We're just going to go right to this? So I'm delighted to have... I'm not going to say that. I was just going to say, we have managed to get some respectful foreplay out of the way. So now I can ask the question, which is obviously lots of people are looking to you as a potential Democratic presidential nominee when the time is right. I presume you are thinking about it, yes?

Well, it's a big compliment that people look at me in that vein. I got to tell you, right now, and I know every sitting governor would say this, and you're all going to be suspicious, but I got to be. big job right now to stay focused on. And I'm going to do that. I don't want to take my eye off the ball and go out having missed something, having lost something, having a catastrophe happen under my watch. That would be the worst thing for anything I want to do in the future. I don't know if I need to be the main character in the next chapter, but I want to have a hand in writing it. And I think I've got an important vantage point as the governor of an important swing state. and so I anticipate helping, but I don't know if I'm going to be the person.

So if I see you next year giving a speech in Iowa or New Hampshire, I'm going to be very skeptical of that answer, right? I'll still be governor of Michigan. I don't know why I'd be in Iowa or New Hampshire. Well, we'll see. Here's a quote from Ezra Klein, who said, I don't care about left-wing radicalism. I don't think it's some great threat.

I worry about left-wing pessimism, fatalism, that we are losing and we don't want to change anything. And the question for me is, how do we win Senate seats in places like Kansas and Missouri and Ohio? You got an answer for Ezra? Senate seats for Ohio and Kansas and Missouri. I mean, the thing that I think about in Michigan is I get around into all 83 counties. My favorite thing to do is meet someone and say,

if I'm lucky enough to get elected or reelected, what could I do that will make your life better? and if you ask people they will tell you it's not rocket science you don't have to poll test everything they will tell you when i ran for governor on a phrase fix the damn roads people thought it was so brilliant it was gritty it was meeting people where they are how did we come up with it i said that's just how people in michigan talk about the roads fix the damn roads and it was a woman at the detroit children's hospital that i asked her you know if i'm elected what can i do that make your life better and i thought she'd talk about education

or health care? She said, fix the damn roads. And I said, all right, tell me more. Why is this number one? And she was driving from Flint to Detroit, going back and forth, hit a pothole, sideline her for a whole day, cost her hundreds of dollars out of her budget rent, child care that she needed. She missed that day with her son in the hospital. And so roads were front and center for her. And so I think it's really staying connected to the people finding out what they need, putting together a vision of how you're going to make their life better. It's not rocket science. We need talented, exciting, new voices in the party without question.

But at the end of the day, people vote for someone they trust who is going to keep their interests in heart and help them make their lives better. Okay, let's do a couple quick questions from the floor here in our remaining moments. Here's one in the midst of a chaotic tariff policy that changes every day. Why should Canada trust Michigan as a partner? We got a long relationship. Michiganers love Canada. We are intertwined.

Our economies are intertwined. We've got to grow that and solidify it. The tariff policy will make it very difficult. There's no question. We're going to continue to try to bring pressure to Washington, D.C. to stop the madness. But we know that the future is long. Our past is long.

And that's why Michigan is always going to. be a good bet for Canadians. Many of you already married to a Michigander, right? I met a number of you today. Clap for your spouse, all right? Come on. But Michigan's always going to be a good bet for Canadians because we have this shared history, this shared culture, this shared future. And so I think that's why. Okay. The light is blinking on me here, so we'll do one more. Any advice for young women going into public service careers? You know, I love public service. I'm a lawyer. There are a lot of things that I could have done these last 20-some years, but I find this to be the most rewarding work that I could

have ever done. I can see when I get a budget done that feeds 1.4 million kids breakfast and lunch in school, I can see what it's meant for their families. I know that what we're doing matters. I hope that by showing up here, I've made an impression on some of you that what you see in America is one little data point. The reality is this relationship's important. We love Canadians, and we want to continue to grow this relationship. Last question. There is every possibility the Detroit Tigers and the Toronto Blue Jays are going to meet the American League Championship Series. It's possible. Recognizing the room you're in right now, who do you think would win that series?

Well, let's talk about the NFL since we're all Lions fans. Go Lion! Good doctor. Gretchen Whitmer, everybody. Thank you. Thank you, Governor. Well done. Well done. Thank you very much.