The Paikin Podcast - Harvey Browstone: Meeting Hate with Levity and Becoming Canada’s First Openly Gay Judge

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

Harvey Brownstone’s “life story is one of the most astonishing you’ll ever encounter.”  He joins the pod to discuss his book, Without Prejudice: My Life as a Gay Judge, his early life, his traumatic experience coming out to his parents, being disowned, and living in poverty at Queen’s University. From there they discuss his early years as a lawyer, the homophobia and hate he experienced, how levity can sometimes be the best response, becoming Canada’s first openly gay judge, and the upcoming movie about his life. Book: “Without Prejudice: My Life as a Gay Judge” Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcast Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznCIUEA11lZGcNIM4h?si=b5d73bc7c3a041b7X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social Email us at: [e-mail] 

Hi, everybody, Steve Paken here. There have, of course, been gay judges in Canada from time immemorial, but they were buried deep in the closet, convinced that if their sexual orientation were ever discovered, their careers would be over. That's the way it was until Harvey. I'm talking about Harvey Brownstone, whose life story is one of the most astonishing you will ever encounter. He's got a new autobiography out, and I can't believe how much I learned about him that I did not know. And I say that because I have known the former Mr. Justice Brownstone my whole life.

Our parents were friends. We're both from Hamilton. We've known each other. Gosh, it's got to be 60 years. But there was so much about his life that I didn't have a clue about. This is a story you have to hear. Harvey Brownstone, one-on-one. Coming up next on the Paken podcast.

I am beyond delighted to introduce the author of a new book. It is called Without Prejudice. my life as a gay judge and it brings Harvey Brownstone, my longtime pal to the Paken podcast. Harvey, it's so great to see you. How are you today? Hi, Steve. I'm so thrilled to be here. Well, it feels like the tables are turned because you, of course, and we'll get to this later, have a very successful interview show, the Harvey Brownstone interviews, on which you have kindly had me on as a guest. So it's about time we turn the tables here. Are you ready?

I am ready and very excited. Okay. I want to start with a quote. I'm going to be. sprinkle a few quotes from the book throughout the course of our conversation. And this really, I think, reveals what motivated you along the way. To everyone along the way who told me I would never make anything of myself in life, thank you for teaching me that success is the best revenge. So let's start there. How much of what you have achieved in life as a lawyer, as a judge, do you think was motivated by showing the bastards I told you I'd amount to something? It was absolutely a prime motivator.

First of all, because of my parents. They rejected me when I told them I was gay when I was 19. They were so ashamed of me that I turned all of that pain and heartbreak into ambition, a fierce determination to prove them wrong, to make them see that they should not only accept me and not be ashamed of me, but that I would regain their love. And so that started me on a course of wanting to prove everybody wrong. Every time I was told I would never make it.

Of course, the thing about success being the best revenge is that I don't know if this is true for other people, but when I was young, I thought that if I worked really hard and I made something of myself, that all those people who put me down would eventually come to me and say, I'm sorry, I misjudged you. That doesn't happen. And so the only real revenge you get is knowing that they know that you made it. Okay, let's tell the story then so people can get a sense about what you have been through. And as I said off the top, Harvey, I've known you since I was a kid, right? And I just cannot get over what I learned about you and how you did what you did.

Let's start. This story begins in France. You're actually born in France and you end up in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. How did that happen? My mom had me with her first husband. That was a very unhappy marriage and she wanted to leave the country with me. She had a sister living in Hamilton, Ontario, whose husband worked at International Harvester. And the sister said, why don't you come here? It's a good life in Canada. So she picked up and moved to Canada, to Hamilton. And I mean, here's another thing. I knew your dad, Sam Brownstone, very well. I always thought he was your biological father. So did you apparently.

When did you find out he was actually your mother's second husband, your adoptive father? I found out in a way that kids probably shouldn't find out. You know, I was three years old when I moved to Canada. and I didn't remember any other father, and I really thought he was my biological father, and that's how I was presented. But one day, a neighbor said to me that she thought it was so amazing that I looked like my dad.

And I said, well, why wouldn't I look like my dad? He's my dad. And she said, no, he's not. No, no, no. Your mother brought you to Canada when you were a baby. Your dad adopted you. Well, I was stunned. So, of course, I confronted my parents immediately.

My mother exploded. That neighbor will never forget that conversation with my mom. And my parents sat me down and then told me the truth. And you're how old at the time? I was nine. Nine years old. My goodness. Did you know your birth father at all?

No. I never. I don't remember him. I never saw him again when we moved to Canada. I know very little about him because my mom kind of reinvented history. And in her mind, she really, Sam Brownstone, really was her only husband and I really was his biological son. She had a way of making things happen the way she wanted them to. Well, you say in the book, it was only when I was an adult that

my father told me about his past. Until then, I'd had no idea that he had been married before meeting my mom. Was there a point in your life, Harvey, where you thought, my goodness, we have a hell of a lot of secrets in this family and I barely know any of them. I was shocked. I knew at nine years old that he wasn't my biological father, but I didn't know that he'd been married before and that he had two children with his first wife. He told me when he was much, when I was much older, that he didn't think those kids were his because she'd been having an affair all along and she ended up leaving him and marrying the man she had the affair with who ended up adopting those kids. But yes, I did realize there were secrets. Did you have any relationship over?

over the years with your father's children from his previous? Never. I never met them. He never talked about them, except the one time when he said he had every reason to believe they weren't his kids. Gotcha. Nine years old is kind of an important moment in your life because that's the point at which you tell us in the book

that you began, you know, being hit with homophobic slurs when you were at school. What were the kinds of things your classmates would say to you? Well, for some reason, which I still don't understand, kids seem to be able to pick up on things that are different, that I myself didn't understand. But from the age of grade four, nine years old, I was the faggot, I was the queer, I was the sissy, I was the girly boy. Then when it became known that I was Jewish and I was the only Jew in the school, in the east end of Hamilton, I became the dirty Jew. So I got a double whammy.

Did you, in fact, at the age of nine, know at that point in your life that you were gay? I think I knew I was different in some way. And my earliest memory was that I went to summer camp and there was a counselor. Our counselor at summer camp was, I don't know, he must have been maybe 15 or 16 and he was an athletic, good looking, very nice guy. and I think I had a little bit of a crush on him. It was more than the hero worship that other boys had. I was mesmerized by him and I thought he was so handsome and I wanted attention. And that's when I began to think, I must be a little bit different.

But it didn't hit me really until I was much old. When I was 18 or 19, then I really figured it out. Well, you say it didn't hit you. but in fact during school, you got hit a lot. What kind of beatings did you endure? Oh, I was beat up probably every day from grade four to grade eight. My biggest challenge in life in those days was getting into the school building in one piece and getting home after school in one piece.

These guys were relentless. There were about five of them and they were really pretty rough, tough guys. and I was beaten, well, the worst beating was the day that one of our teachers told the class that the Jews killed Jesus. This was right before Good Friday. And because they all knew I was Jewish, I guess I was going to pay the price for the fact that the Jews killed Jesus. And the only way, all I remember was curling up into the fetal position and pretending I was dead. And one of them did say, gee, I think he's dead. we better go. That was a really bad beating. And, you know, there's not much you can do. Lots of people

have asked me, well, why didn't you learn how to fight? Like, why didn't your dad take you to karate or judo or something? And I, looking back, I wonder why my dad didn't ever kind of teach me, but I think he knew that I just wouldn't be a good fighter. And I was so outnumbered. I don't think I could have done anything except cover my face and hope that it would stop. But it was, it was bad. It is a good question, though. I mean, your dad ran the Jewish Community Center. He was a very athletic guy himself, really quite a stud of a guy, if you like. And it is interesting that he, I mean, when you came home with bruises all over you, what did your folks say?

The first time it happened, they were more, I told them that I got beat up. They were mortified. My mother said, we're going right to the school. And sure enough, the next day, I could hear in my classroom, my mother screaming at the principal in the office. Next thing you know, the principal summons the boys that beat me up and me to his office. And he said, now, boys, you've got to learn to get along. Now, I want you to shake hands. And that was it.

Well, when we were walking back to class, those boys said, Brownstone, you're dead meat. And then the retaliation was worse than ever. And I realized by telling my parents, all I did was make it worse. that they couldn't fix it because in those days, bullying was seen as a right of passage for kids. Nobody took it seriously. There was none of these zero tolerance policies we see in schools now. So I made it worse and I learned never to tell my parents again. And it does remain a mystery to me, Steve, how they saw my clothes would be torn.

I'd have scratches and scrapes and bruises. It was the elephant in the room. It was never mentioned again. because I'd learn not to complain or I was going to get into more trouble. And I think they felt so helpless that they couldn't do anything about it that we never, ever talked about it. Mind you, somewhere along the way, you must have had some allies on the staff at one of the schools you attended. Because what was this story?

They rigged an election to help make you become the student body president? What was that about? Well, I had a teacher who was a real guardian angel, and I've stayed in touch with her right to this day, she had, she would protect me from the bullies. She would give me a detention for something I didn't do just to keep me after school so I'd get out of there after the bullies had left. Or maybe five minutes before the end of the school, she would say, Harvey, I've got a letter that has to be mailed. Go take this letter and then I'd get out of there before the bullies. And one day she said to me, I have a plan. You should run for student council president. Oh, I said, I thought she was

crazy. I said, I'm the most unpopular student in the whole school. How could I possibly win that? And those bullies will never let me forget it. She said, those other kids hate those bullies just as much as you do and you should just trust me. I think you can win this. So I didn't have the guts to say no. So I ran for student council president and then I won. Well, believe it or not, about 40 years later, I'm having lunch with this fabulous teacher, Mrs. Jarrett. And I said to her, you know, I still can't understand how I won that election. She said, well, Harvey, the principal and the other teachers and I felt it was more important for you to win and make a statement. And so we just arranged that you won.

But she said, I want you to know you did come close. So Donald Trump is right. Elections are really rigged. You know, I don't know how many teachers out there would have done something like that to help this. kid because it did help. Once I became president, the bullies saw that I had a lot more support than they could ever have imagined. And it did get better. But it was a shock. Yes, I was the product of election rigging. Just like Joe Biden, right? Oh, my God. This is, anyway, we're going to get back on the path here. Although, interestingly enough, you say you did go to a school reunion many years later

and a couple of those guys who were the bullies back in the day were also there. How did that, I mean, you saw them, you talked to them. How did that all go? You know, first of all, both of those guys looked like life had not been good to them. They had not aged well at all. And I had heard from the other students, you know, they had both had criminal records. they had beat up their wives. They were divorced.

They'd lost jobs. They'd been to jail. And they both came up to me and said, well, well, well, well, Judge Brownstone. What's it like to be a judge? And I said, it's great. I get to send bullies like you to jail. And unbeknownst to me, I was surrounded by other classmates who started applauding loudly. And these two morons slithered their way out of the,

the building. They made a quick exit. It was a great feeling because the only part that kind of bothered me was that they found out that they had been right, that I was gay, that I guess I did grow up to be a queer. That part just bothered me, but the fact is kids can be really cruel and they do pick up on anything about another kid that's different. And I guess I was different. Sounds like you got the last laugh, though. I got the last laugh, yes. Now, your first year, Queens University, you make, I guess, one of the most important decisions of your life, which is that you are going to come out to your parents and have a, if I can put it this way, a bit of a come-to-Jesus conversation with them about your sexual orientation. In making that decision before you actually had the meeting with

them. How did you think they would react to that news? I've asked myself a million times that very same question. I knew my parents. I knew how much they wanted me to get married and give them grandchildren and I was the only child. They wouldn't have it any other way. I knew my mother had an explosive temper and was very mercurial. And yet I didn't think the reaction would be as terrible as it was. I thought they'd be disappointed. I thought my mother might take some time to adjust. But deep down, Steve, I thought they knew. I mean, if all those kids on the playground knew, how could my own parents not know?

I never dated girls in high school. I was one of those kids that was kind of a stereotypical. You know, I was a little effeminate. I wasn't athletic. I thought they knew deep down. So I didn't think there would be a terrible reaction. action, but boy, was I wrong? Well, here's the quote from the book.

This is what you quote your mother is having said when you share the news with her. Quote, I would rather die than have a gay son. In fact, we should both die. That's the best thing to do. I can't believe I survived the Holocaust for this. You're having sex with other men? If I'd known you would turn out this way, I would have had an abortion. You've ruined my life.

I wish you'd never been born. born. Harvey, how does a son react when his mother says something that cruel? Well, it was pretty soul-destroying. It was very, very shocking. I was in a state of, to know that I'd broken my mother's heart that badly was something that I really shook me to my core. I couldn't, I'd never thought I'd get over it. Of course, 30 years later, when I repeated those words to her, she denied ever having said them. And I realized, I made myself sick all these years about what she said. And she does, she said, I would never say that about my son. Are you crazy? Never. I realized she was just so unfiltered that she was saying whatever came to her head without even remembering it. How many times did you say to

yourself, damn, I just should not have come out. I shouldn't have told them. Terrible idea. I just shouldn't have done it. I shouldn't have done it while I was financially dependent on them. And I've been asked many times over the years by young gay people if they should come out to their parents. And I always say, don't do it when you're financially dependent on your parents because I ended up destitute, homeless, penniless. That was a mistake. But, ultimately, I have to tell you, Steve, I am glad I did because everything I went through after made me who I am. But I've never known anyone ever who regretted coming out. Not one gay person I've ever met regretted coming out. That's fascinating. Let's tell a bit of the story

about how you made it through those times because here you are, a student at university, you know, four hours away from home. And you're cleaning toilets. You're on welfare, you don't know where your next meal is coming from. How'd you get through all that? Well, I got a scholarship. I was really lucky. There was a dean of residence at Queens that took a shine to me and saw that I was really in a bad way. And he got me a scholarship. As long as I maintained straight A's, I could, my tuition and books would be paid for. So that was paid for by the school because I did get straight A's all the way through. And my welfare covered my room in residence, the housing.

So all I needed to do was work to pay for food and other living expenses. So I cleaned people's houses. I learned where to find free food. You know, this is before Costco where you got all those delicious free samples. But I would show up at hotels where they had conferences. because there was always a table of muffins and Danish around 10.30 in the morning out in the hall. So I do that every day. I got friendly with waiters and restaurants and I'd go there around 10 o'clock at night, around

closing time, and they would give me food that they were going to throw out, like soup, salads, dinner rolls. You know, I dated some guys that were able to feed me that would take me out. and buy me food. You know, when you're that age, you do what you have to do to survive. There's a story in the book, and I must confess, when I read it, I didn't know whether to be furious or laugh my head off. And I prefaced the story by saying that because it's a grim moment. I mean, there you are considering suicide.

You call a suicide prevention hotline, and they put you on hold for five minutes and play muzac in the background. I mean, what were you thinking at that time? Well, that was a really important moment for me because I had decided I was going to end it all. You know, I figured if the only people I ever loved in the whole world didn't love me, what was the point of going on?

I just didn't see any reason to keep living. And that's unfortunately what happened to a lot of young gay people back then. It probably still happens now. that you just, you turn, you be, you turn all that pain into self-loathing. And some people self-medicate with drugs and alcohol. And some people do commit suicide. And I thought, well, if I could, I looked on the phone book and they had suicide hotline. I thought if they could give me one reason to keep living, then I won't do it.

And they put me on hold. And then I'm starting, as the minutes are passing, I'm getting angry. And then I thought I had one of those. kind of aha moments that Oprah talks about, I thought, well, if I could be that angry that I'm being treated with such disrespect, then I couldn't really want to die because if I really wanted to die, I wouldn't care. So I hung up. Then when I finally made some money, I sent them a big donation with a letter saying, please, please, you need better resources. And if you're going to put people on hold, don't put these horrible songs on like, how will I live without you? And I wish I was

dead. These are not songs you put. Very good. As I was reading the book, Harvey, I kept thinking to myself, where's your dad in all this? Your mother clearly has a view about your homosexuality, but your father seems to have been kind of more sympathetic, but unable to really be the ally you needed him to be. How come? My mother was a steamroller. She was one of these people that was very much in charge.

He couldn't get a word in edgewise. And he was a social worker. He had no problem with me being gay at all. And I have a feeling he even knew. But he could not stand up to her. He didn't have the ability. He, anytime he would try, she would shout him down. She really was a bully.

And he, I think when you're in a relationship with someone who's that powerful, who's just that controlling. And believe me, I've seen it many times in family court. You either get out or shut up. You're not going to get your way with a person like that. And he loved her and stayed with her. And thank God he did because I think he gave her some comfort during the years that we were estranged. But, you know, we had it out one day much later.

And I said, you know, Dad, couldn't you have put money in an envelope and sent it to me? At least that. And I'll never forget, he said, Harvey, you probably have more cash than me. She handles everything. I didn't have any money. And then I realized, wow, he really was powerless. So I love him and I forgive him and I understand what he must have gone through because you have to understand when I told her, when I told my parents I was gay, what was going

through his mind was, oh my God, Harvey's dropped a bomb on a. our life. He's going to go back to school and I'm going to be left with this hurricane, this tornado, this tsunami of a wife. I could barely handle her before, but what am I going to do now? That's what was going through his mind. You know, I have to, just parenthetically, I have to say, your mother was a beautiful woman, as we said, from France, so elegant, such wonderful fashion sense. Your dad was such a handsome, good looking guy. He either did or didn't have a couple of kids from a previous marriage. You are the product of your mother's first marriage. Your parents didn't have any children with each other. Did you ever ask them about that? Why that was the case? I did. She said

they tried and she just couldn't get pregnant. Ah, okay. Okay. Let me get you back at Queens where you're at university and one of your professor says to you, Harvey, you have made a mistake living openly as a gay man, you're never going to get a job at a law firm as a result. You did not identify who that guy was who said that to you in the book. And I'm curious as to why not. Well, I could have because he's dead. I guess I just didn't want to upset all the people that thought he was so great. He actually said worse than that.

You know, when after he told, he said to me, I'm only trying to protect you. And I said, well, protect me. I'm in third year. I'm about to graduate. how are you protecting me? And I said to him, I, if you're right, I don't believe you're right,

I believe I can get a job. I've got straight A's, and there's got to be other gay people out there like me. And, but even if you're right, after what I've been through, cleaning people's houses, doing everything I can to get by,

do you really think, if I can't get a job as a lawyer, that I'm not going to survive? If I have to sell shoes in a department store, I'll get a job. And then, and I didn't put this in the book, I said to him,

well, I guess I shouldn't be asking you for any letters of reference. And he said, don't worry, Harvey. Just get on your knees. You'll figure it out. Oof. Oof. And I'm happy to tell you

that that scene is in the feature film version of the book, which will be released in the fall, and I can't wait for people to see that. We are going to talk about the film later because amazingly, this book is just out and it's already been made into a feature film. And we'll be back right after this. I said off the top, Harvey, that you and I go way back.

I mean, our parents were friends. We're both from Hamilton. You were my babysitter. I don't know how many years ago this was. Probably 60 years ago. You babysit my kid, brother and me once upon a time. And you also told me, I guess it went, well, many, many years after that, probably, I don't know, five, 10 years ago, you once said to me that my mother

Marnie Paken had a conversation with your mother, Odette Brownstone, about you, which I knew nothing about. Could you tell me more about that conversation or what my mom said to your mom about you? Well, I should preface it by saying that your mother, Marnie Paken, was a legend. She was one of the most intelligent, the most compassionate, the most selfless people. on the planet. She was so generous with her time. She gave of herself and of her intellect to every organization. She improved the lives of so many people. And she was a good friend of my parents. And one day in the early 80s, I had become the president of the Toronto Jewish Gay Group, which was called Chutzpah. I was living in Toronto. I was a lawyer by

event. There was a, in those days, almost every gay person I knew had been rejected by their families and certainly wasn't welcome in the mainstream Jewish community. So we had our own group called chutzpah. And one day, the Canadian Jewish news did a little article about our group. And I was quoted in it. Well, Marnie, your mom, saw that article and phoned my mother and said, I want to get together. I want to go out for lunch with you. And they went out for lunch. And she said, Odette, I saw this article. I know. I've wondered where Harvey's been for the last five years.

We never see him. You don't talk about him. He only lives in Toronto as an hour away. Why do we never see Harvey? And then I saw this article and I put two and two together. And I understood that you're estranged from your son. And my mom said, what could she say? She said, yes, yes.

And your mother, God bless her, said, Oh, Dad, you don't throw your son in the garbage. You don't throw your children in the garbage. This is not the way to handle this. There's nothing wrong. We all know people that are homosexuals, and they've done just fine. There's no reason why you should do this. My mother said, well, it's easy for you to talk. Let's see what you would feel if it was one of your son. And I hope it is. Len will just see how compassionate and how accepting you're going to be. Don't judge me because it hasn't happened to you. And your mom stood her ground as only Marnie Pakenwood and she said, you are totally wrong. I wouldn't care. I wouldn't ever, ever reject my children no matter what.

And many years later, your mom sat me down and told me about this conversation. So I went to my mom and she said, yep, yep, that happened. Because my mother did eventually come around. So, but your mother was the one, the first one, and maybe even the only one, who took my mother down, you know, said her, you can't do that. This is wrong. I never knew that story until just a few years ago, and I'm so glad to know. My mother was the most impressive person I ever met in my life, and yes, she was a great hero of mine, and you're telling me this story just adds to her luster in my view. I'm so glad to know that. Well, I'm glad to hear you say that, because the thing about my mother, that you need to remember is that she could be explosive. No one would take her on. She wasn't the kind of

person that you wanted to poke the bear by your mom. I never saw that person though, Harvey. Like, I knew your mother. I'd see your mother from time to time. She was always this beautiful, elegant French woman and the notion that she could have an explosive personality, I never saw it. Well, she had no reason to display that in front of you or out in public. But if someone were to be, to dare to take her on, and your mother did, she could really explode. She was the screaming, I mean, she could scream loud enough to break windows, but your mom knew it. She knew it. She was intuitive enough to understand that this, this gallic charm had another side to it. And she wasn't, she was fearless, your mom. Damn right. Harvey, your parents showed up at your law school graduation. How

did that happen? Well, there you go back to what you started out with was success is the best revenge. And, you know, when I, when I knew that I was going to graduate and I got a whole bunch of prizes because I was top in my class, I wanted them to know that I'd made it. Because I did all that for them. I wanted to be a success for them. You know, Lily Tomlin says, I always wanted to be a somebody, but you need to be a little more specific. But in my case, I wanted to be a big success. So I sent them an invitation to the graduation. And I didn't hear anything. And then they showed up. There they were. And did you reconcile with them at that graduation? We acted like nothing had ever happened. My friends were there saying, aren't you going to say something?

And I said, this is such a special moment. The only time I was tempted to say something, after the ceremony, there was this big reception. And my friends and some of my professors all came up to my mom. They'd all known what I'd been through. And they said, you know, Mrs. Brownstone, you should be so proud of your son. He's done so well. He's going to have a great career. And my mother said, well, of course he's great.

Who do you think raised him? Do you have no idea what I went through, the sacrifices that I'm. I went through to put my son through law school, but I'd do anything for my son. He's my whole life. And they were all looking at me. And I kept thinking, I wonder if they think I lied that I didn't tell the truth about what I went through because she was so convincing. And they were looking at me like, aren't you going to say something? What do you mean the sacrifices that you put your son through law school? What? But I told myself, this is too special a day. She needs to save face. This is her way of getting through the event. It's such a happy time. I never said a word. We acted like it. Nothing had ever

happened. I know. It sounds weird. But when you just want your parents to love you and accept you, you don't want to start up an argument in a setting like that because I won. They got to see the son become a lawyer. And I'm happy to say the story with your mother has a very happy ending because again from the book, the last words she said to you before her death were, you were the best son in the world, I wouldn't have changed anything about you, now I can go in peace. How do you think that transition happened? I became a judge. It's very, very easy. In fact, my mother said, well, anybody can have grandchildren, but not everybody can say their son is a judge. The day that the government made me a judge was the day my mother no longer had to be ashamed of me. Because in her

mind, she thought, well, if the government's willing to do that, obviously being gay isn't such a terrible thing. And everything changed the day I became a judge. Should I have had to work that hard to get my mother to finally accept me? Of course not. But what a feeling that she gave me the gift of rejection, which made me the most ambitious, driven overachiever you will ever meet. And sure enough, at the age of 38 years old and being openly gay, I got myself appointed to the bench, all because I wanted her to finally be proud of me. And it happened.

Well, okay, we're going to get to your being a judge in a second, but first of all, of course, you became a lawyer before that. And I'm, I guess I want to probe a little bit about what it was like trying to get a job on Bay Street in Toronto at this time. We're in the 1970s now, I guess, right? we were in 1980 i graduated in 1980 and because i had taught marks i was interviewed by every big firm on base street in toronto which is where i thought i belonged because there's a story can i i'm

going to share a quote here okay because this is a here you are trying to get a job at a pish-pish firm on base street and you write i must have attended at least 20 interviews at the most prestigious law firms in toronto i was asked about everything except the law One lawyer looked me up and down within the first few minutes, first his lips, furrowed his brows, and said, quote, we have a baseball team at this firm. We play against the other law firms on summer weekends. You don't seem like the kind of guy who can pitch very well.

I couldn't help myself, you write. Without skipping a beat, I pouted, flashed him a coy smile, and said, no, I'm much better at catching than pitching. The interview came to an abrupt end. I can't imagine why. How was it trying to get a job on Bay Street, actually? You know, I knew after about the third interview that I wasn't going to get a job at any of those firms.

They were populated in those days by wasps. You know, I never saw one woman there. There must have been women, but I didn't see any. They were, they all looked the same gray pinstripe suits, point dextery face. These guys were so backwards. I'm sure they thought a bisexual was somebody who had held had sex twice. And so I realized I might as well have some fun. So, you know, I did. I had a comeback every time one guy said to me, well, you know, our clients are in the construction

business. They are really hard talking, hard drinking, tough clients. You got to be a man's man to work at this firm. And I just threw my arms in the air and said, you are looking at the very definition of a man's man. To this day, I don't even know if he understood what the hell I was saying. But I just, I knew I wasn't going to get a job. I could see how they were treating me and the way I came across. Not that I'm proud of the fact that, you know, I couldn't be more like Rock Hudson and get away with pretending that I was straight.

But I just couldn't. I just, my voice modulates in a certain way. I'll tell you, David Arquette plays me in the movie and he said, Harvey, you talk with your eyebrows. I cannot possibly copy you. I just, I, everything about me, I've never had to tell one person I was gay in my whole life. They just figured it out. I'll bet when I was your babysitter, you figured it out. Absolutely not.

I got to tell you, no, I'm, I mean, I wasn't going to raise it, but you have. The funny thing is, I, like, you are our babysitter in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, in the like late 1960s, I think. And whether someone was gay or not was just nothing, anybody, at least not in my world, we never thought about anything to do with that. We thought you were sort of an outgoing, you know, outrageous fun guy. But, you know, your sexual orientation was nothing we ever thought about. I don't know.

I have no gay, Harvey. What can I tell you? You were an unusual kid. You were a genius back then. I'm not surprised that you weren't thinking about things like that. And I mean, we had fun. I liked you and you were such, you and your brother were such good kids.

But I knew from an early age that from the time I was being beaten up at school, that everybody could figure out who I was. I never, ever had to tell anybody they just knew. So I was a fish out of water on Bay Street. And it took me a few, like a few weeks to figure out. These people are not going to hire me. I don't look like them. I don't act like them.

I don't think like them. And I don't want to be like them. I don't even know why I'm here. This isn't the kind of law I even want to do. Well, you eventually got a job at a criminal law firm. And here's another funny story from the book. You're in court one day. And this happens.

A notoriously bigoted judge had once asked, Counsel, are you trying to show contempt for this court? Borrowing a line from May West, I coyly responded, no, Your Honor. I'm doing my best to hide it. I always had a ready answer whenever a judge tried to poke fun at me because I did it with humor and a twinkle in my eye rather than with abrasive militancy.

I always won over those old geysers. I wish more lawyers and judges understood that, use prudently and tastefully, a touch of levity can be very effective in cooling heated exchanges in the courtroom. I'm wondering, though, whether your sassy mouth ever got you in trouble in a courtroom to the detriment of you or one of your clients.

Believe it or not, no. And I got to tell you something. when I became a young lawyer in court, there were a few other gay lawyers that were quite militant. And when an old fart of a judge would say something inappropriate, and believe me, it would happen a lot. They'd get into this militant lecture mode, which absolutely did not work. It would end, you would alienate the judge, you would lose the case. You're not helping your client. I figured out that if I used humor and likability, every time I had.

had those kind of homophobic comments. You ended up winning them over. You know, for example, one judge said to me, Mr. Brownstone, do you ride side, saddle, saddle? I said, Your Honor, it depends on the horse. And you had, you know, one day I show up in court. I had a car accident on the way to court, so I'm like 15 minutes late for this trial. I said, Your Honor, I'm so sorry I'm late. I was rear-ended on my way to court. And the judge says, well, Mr. Brownstone, I certainly hope there was a car involved. I said, oh, yes, Your Honor, an Italian import, quite compact, but it gave me quite a jolt. And what happens is that you've disarmed them. You've made them laugh. They're doing what you just did. They can't help themselves. You're cheering them up. You're giving them this funny little moment.

And I would get moments like that all the time in court. And it worked to my benefit because Because instead of lecturing them and turning them into trying to embarrass them, scolding them, they're the judge. You can't do that. You can make them, you can win them over with humor. And I got known for that. Well, here's, okay, I'm going to share this one. This is you at your sassiest, I think, my favorite story in the book. One day I was representing a lascivious, gregarious, and rather buxom young woman who'd been arrested for prostitution. After successfully advancing a defense of, of police entrapment, the charge was thrown out and my client released from the prisoner's box. She ran right up to me, planted a passionate, wet kiss on my lips and cooed. Thanks so much, sweetie. Anytime you want to blow job, it's on the house. She then turned to the judge, a sedate, gray-haired, humorless old codger and yelled,

you too, Judge, you sure look like you could use one. She then blew the judge a kiss and sashayed out of the courtroom. As I wipe my lips with my sleeve, I said to the judge, Your Honor, that's one offer I know neither of us will be accepting. To my utter amazement, the judge flashed a devilish smile, winked at me, and chortled, Mr. Brownstone, speak for yourself. Everyone had a good laugh over that one. I mean, I haven't covered the courts, obviously, as much as you've been in the courts, but it doesn't seem to me like that kind of levity exists in the courtroom anymore, does it? No, it doesn't. And I mean, look at the one, my favorite story was the fellow that got charged in the

gay bathhouse raid. And the crowns had. had been very sympathetic. These were crimes without victims. These were, you know, this is a private club. These guys know what's going to happen when they go to these bathhouses. They're there to have sex. They're all in the closet. That's why they go there. And why the police decided to raid all these bathhouses is beyond me. But anyway, 300 men get arrested. And the crowns had agreed that these men had no criminal records. They should get absolute discharges. And unfortunately, in one case, I was in front of the worst, most meanest evil judge, and I will name him, Robert De Niper.

We all went to his funeral just to make sure he was dead. Anyway, he says to me, Mr. Brownstone, why should I give your client a discharge? I said, Your Honor, because you should give him the discharge he didn't get to have at the bathhouse on the night he was arrested. And he laughed. Nobody could believe that Judge De Nieper could laugh. We'd never seen his teeth. And I got my discharge from my client. I found humor worked and you're right. It doesn't happen anymore. Everybody is so politically correct that everyone is so afraid that something you say is going to get misinterpreted and taken the wrong way that there's this level of fear and stiffness and rigidity.

I'm so glad that didn't happen when I was a lawyer, although there were other things when I was a lawyer that weren't great. We didn't have the caliber of judges we have now. A lot of them were political appointees, and there was a lot of misogyny and racism and all of that on the bench. So I'm not saying we should go back. But I do think that a little bit of humor sometimes pays off. I used it in my courtroom when I was a judge. Well, let's get to this point. You're now in your sort of mid to late 30s, mid to late 30s, and you do decide you want to apply to become a judge.

And Harvey, you were told, I'm sure you'll be a good judge, but no government in its right mind will ever appoint an openly gay judge. It would be political suicide. If you really wanted to be a judge, you should have stayed in the closet. That's what you were told. What did you think when you heard that? Well, I figured, okay, here's one more obstacle I have to overcome. I mean, I couldn't get a job as a crown attorney because I was told, oh, the police won't work with you. You're gay.

I couldn't get a job on Bay Street because I was too gay. All my, I was told by my professor. You know, I was, I was used to it. And I thought, well, I'm going to try anyway because I've been to court enough times to know that I am at least as good, if not better, than the judges I've appeared in front of. And I think it's worth a try. And the weird part was, here's the weird part. everybody said oh you'll never get a job no government will appoint you then when i got the job all i heard was oh well it's because he's gay the government wanted to make a statement you can't win well i want to know how

that call went when you got the news it was bob ray's government in the early 1990s in the province of ontario the attorney general of the day was a woman named marian boyd from london she was the attorney general and she's the one who technically i guess appointed you to the bench How did you find out? I got a phone call from a secretary saying, the attorney general will be calling you at 2 o'clock. So I knew, she's not calling to tell me I didn't get it. So I already knew.

That's how it works. They tell you to be at the phone at a certain hour. So you know. So I was so excited. When 2 o'clock came, she came on the phone and said, Harvey, this was the easiest decision I've ever made as Attorney General. when I looked at your credentials, because I had been the director of the child support enforcement agency for the province of Ontario, I had spearheaded a whole bunch of legislation to modernize the child support enforcement program. She knew about me.

She knew who I was. And she said, I think it's about time. I think you're swearing in is going to make a big splash. And I'm telling you now, I'm going to be there. Well, I couldn't believe it. I mean, normally at a swearing in for a judge, the senior crown attorney speaks. on behalf of the Attorney General's ministry. But Marian Boyd showed up at my swearing in and made the speech of a lifetime.

And I was very pleased that my parents were so mesmerized that there she was and that she felt I was important enough that she should be there. It really was a very generous thing for her to do. And I'm so grateful not just that she appointed me, but the way she handled the appointment, the swearing in. Something else happened at that service that I want to talk to about, and that is the guy who refused to hire you in the Crown Attorney's office was also there. What was your encounter with him like? Can you imagine this man only 12 years before had said, well, I can't hire you as a Crown attorney?

You're gay. You're not a good fit for this office. The police will not be able to handle you. And I said, I've dealt with the police every day since I got... since I became a defense counsel. What are you talking about? I've never lost a trial. He said, sorry.

Well, there he was standing there on behalf of the Crown's office at my swearing in. And during the reception afterwards, he did come up to me. And he said, I hope you understand. It was a different time.

And I really do regret it. And I just said, you don't have to apologize. You did me the biggest favor because I left criminal law. I went into family law. My career skyrocketed when I got into child support enforcement. And here I am a judge.

If you had hired me, I'd still be sitting there doing bail hearings at Old City Hall. So it all, and I have found that, Steve, and throughout my whole life, if a door shuts, a window has opened. Well, I want to do an example now of one of the, well, more concerning cases that you dealt with as a family court judge. there's a young smart-ass kid who's in the defendant's chair and he's been charged with assaulting another young kid and the defendant's lawyer assures you the judge that his client is very remorseful about the whole thing and you're not so sure so you ask the following counsel i don't understand what's got into your client to do such a thing why did he beat up this young man before the lawyer could respond the offender blurted out because he's a faggot in a tone conveying the confidence of someone who felt completely justified

in what he'd done. Contrary to what his lawyer had said, this boy was anything but remorseful. I saw red. My blood boiled. This was a moment of truth for me. I had to say something that this kid would never forget. I snapped. Oh yeah? He's a faggot? Well, let me tell you something. So am I. I could hear an audible gasp throughout the courtroom as if the walls were caving in. Pointing to my judicial robe, I blared, you take a good look at this, young. man because this is what faggots grow up to be now. And I sent him to youth custody for nine months. So my question for you is, did he merit that long a sentence or did you give him a longer one because he used that epithet? Oh no, he merited it. He had a bad record and he had

taken a set of brass knuckles and broken this kid's nose. It was a very serious, it was an assault causing bodily harm and nine months in custody was absolutely merited. They didn't even appeal it. But that story, what you just told, of course, where that was the first time, the only time, one of the very few times that I ever mentioned my own sexual orientation while presiding in court, the postscript to that story was that when I said, I'm a faggot too, in the front row, the victim was sitting there with his parents. And the look on that little boy's face when I said that was unbelievable. And after the offender was handcuffed and taken out of the courtroom,

I said to the little boy, come up here. I want you to come up here. And so he comes up and stands beside me on presiding in the courtroom. And I said, take a look at the view from here. the next time you're in a courtroom, I want you to be sitting right here. This is how I want you to remember what it's like to be in court. And the parents were bawling and I was crying. It was quite a moment.

Any idea what happened to that kid? No. No. What a great moment, though. You gave him something to, yeah, you gave him a wonderful moment. Good for you. Harvey, I want to ask you about something a little awkward here. which is to say, you are up for the Chief Justice of the Superior Court job during a time

when the Premier of Ontario happened to be openly gay. Kathleen Wynn was the Premier. And you didn't get the job. Do you know why? Oh, I know exactly why. I had been asked to put my name forward by a number of people in the government and by a number of colleagues. And it was the provincial court.

It wasn't the Superior Court. The appointment is made by the Premier and the Attorney General of the province. And it looked like things were going well. I had a lot of support because I was known as an innovator. I mean, the fact that I was gay was really irrelevant. I had presided in family and criminal court. I had written a best-selling book that gave me a profile with the public. They trusted me when it came to being an educator.

I had hosted a national television show, which no judge had ever done, which was a talk show called Family Matters, which tried to educate the public about the justice system. I was an innovator. And so it was looking good. And then one day, I get a call from Christy Blatchford, who was a journalist at the National Post. She called to say, listen, a couple of your colleagues have approached me.

They're really worried that you're going to get this job. and they're worried that it's going to happen because the premier, Kathleen Wynne, is gay and you're gay, and they think she's just going to give it to you because you both play on the same team. And they don't want you to have this job because they're really nervous about the modernization you want to do to the courts. And I said to her, she said, do you have any comment? I said, well, I don't, I think this is outrageous that colleagues would launch a smear campaign. and go to the media and try to bring me down and try to embarrass the Premier like this,

I really am asking you, please don't print this article. And she said, if I don't do it, somebody else will. I'm telling you they're out to get you. And so I might as well do it because at least I will support you and tell that, and I will denounce their behavior. And she did. Nevertheless, the article planted the seed,

the very seed that any government would be worried about that I would get the job only because I was gay, only because she's gay and I'm gay. And so I didn't get it. Of course, I've never had any conversations with her about it. The fact is, I didn't get it. And that was a big, big disappointment. What really disappointed me was that never before has the process for appointing a provincial

chief justice been politicized like this. And never before has a judge in this country gone to the media to trash a colleague just because they're gay. and there was silence from our chief justice. There was no investigation launched about who the culprits were. There wasn't even an email sent to the whole court denouncing this behavior, which really is misconduct. Of course, I knew who the people were because Christy Blasford told me.

She wanted me to go to the judicial counsel and report them. But I didn't do it because if I reported these people, some of whom were in senior management of the court that I would have to work with if I became chief, this would cause enormous problems. And I didn't want to embarrass the court any further. So I didn't do it. But they know who they are and I know who they are. And I accept that obviously destiny did not have that plan for me to be chief.

It's a decade since all of this happened. How disappointed are you still by all of this? Oh, I got over my disappointment really quickly because right after that, when the new chief was appointed, there was a decision of the Supreme Court called Jordan, which mandated that every decision in the provincial court had to be decided within 18 months. That threw the court into terrible chaos, and I wouldn't have wanted to be the chief for that. And then right after that, there was an audit by the provincial auditor that trashed the whole court, calling it the most inefficient institution. I wouldn't have wanted to have to live through that. And then we got COVID, the pandemic. So looking back, I'm so grateful I didn't get that job because it wouldn't have been an easy time.

And I wouldn't have been able to institute all of the modernization that I wanted to because we would have been overtaken with those other things. So it all worked out great. and once again I'm grateful for destiny. Well, you ended up having a terrific career on the bench and you left the bench and made, I think, a quite fascinating transition from that to becoming a talk show host. You have a very successful YouTube show called the Harvey Brownstone interviews. And I wonder what it was like going from sort of the world of the judiciary to a world where you are interviewing, very well-known celebrities, singers, authors, and so on from show business.

I love it. I always wanted to do that. I always, always was a talk show junkie. Growing up, I watched all those talk show hosts, Dick Cavett and David Frost and Johnny Carson and Barbara Walters and all of them. And I watch you all the time. You're the best ever. And if I'd had my druthers, I would have tried to go into show business as an interviewer way back when I was young, but I wanted to prove to my parents that I could be somebody and show business was not going to be. I didn't feel there was any guarantee there. I knew that I could do well if I went to law school. So I put aside my dreams. But once I turned 65 and got my pension, then I finally pursued celebrity interviewing.

And the fact that I was a judge was my hook. I got people in Hollywood interested in letting me interview them because they were intrigued that a judge would want to do this. And I used my kind of examination in chief style in the courtroom on the show. And it took off. People liked it. Oh, they sure did. And I listen all the time, as you know. Now, I want to know how this, which is just barely out, has already been made into a Hollywood motion picture.

How did that happen? You know, that could be a book in itself. When you think about it, I wrote the book last April, 2025. At the end of April, I finished the book. And in May, I got the book deal. And then I sent the manuscript to a director that's been on my show. His name is Shane Stanley. He's been on my show three times promoting his movies.

We've never met in person, but we were friendly. I knew he liked me. I liked him. I think his movies are good. So I sent him the manuscript and said, if you have the time, could you mind reading this and tell me if there's a movie here? And if there is, who do you think I should send it to? And he said, two days later, he calls me. He said, Harvey, I couldn't put this book down. There's a movie here and I'm making it. Oh, I couldn't believe. I said, you're going to make. He said, not only am I going to make it, I'm doing it now. I had another movie that I was planning. This one's more important. this is the right time for a story like this.

Well, Steve, that was in May. In October, we were filming. In Nashville, Tennessee, somehow he got the financing, he got all the stars. He got the locations. He did everything. And the movie was finished at the end of November. So here we are. The book just got released and there's already been a Hollywood movie made, which I've seen.

And it's great. Well, you showed, I went to your book lunch, as you know, the other day in St. Catharins. and you showed a trailer from the movie. And is it David Arquette who plays you as the judge? There's three Harvys. David Arquette plays Harvey the judge. David Mazuse, who was the star of a TV show called Gotham. He played the young Batman, Bruce Wayne.

He plays the young Harvey. And then there's a child, Asher Alexander, who plays the Harvey that gets beat up and bullied. When are we going to see this movie in theaters? Well, it's going to be released in the fall. I haven't got any specific deal. about exactly where or how. I know it'll end up on a major streaming platform in early 2027. But for the fall, it's going to be doing a whole bunch of film festivals.

Amazing. Harvey, let's finish up on this. I want to know who gave you the best advice that you never took. Former Attorney General Ian Scott. Which was? He told me never to come out. I was a young lawyer at the Attorney General's Ministry and the support enforcement program. And Ian Scott, you see, back in those days, they had what we call the gay mafia. These were powerful, high profile people that were closeted, but they were gay. And they would have these fancy dinner parties like once a month. And I was never part of that group, but I got invited to his house one night because somebody at the ministry had told Ian Scott that there was this young gay guy

at the support enforcement program. So I'm very excited to go. there. And it's a beautiful dinner in his gorgeous home on Castle Frank Avenue. And the people there were people I had heard of but never met. Real estate tycoons, big business people, big lawyers, a couple of politicians. And of course in those days, the major conversation among gay people was coming out. Should you do it? How should you do it? What will it do to your career? This was just a constant conversation. And naturally, Ian Scott said, absolutely not. Never, never should you confirm. Let the public wonder, but don't ever tell them. And I don't know what got into me because I was quite intimidated, but Harvey with the big mouth says, but Mr. Scott, you must be aware that

everyone knows. I mean, I knew about you before I even started working there. I'm sure everybody knows. So, like, why wouldn't you come out? And he exploded. He said, I don't care what they know. Never confirm it. We enacted the human rights code specifically so that you would never have to acknowledge such a thing. And it doesn't matter what you think people know. Never, never, never tell them, never confirm it. And that was the best advice I never took because I think being myself, being authentically who I was. Never, I was never militant about it. I was just me. I think that I did more to warm people up and give them a comfort level around gay people. And I'm talking about my colleagues. When I first started as a judge, these were old farts. These people acted like they'd never met a gay

person in their life. I used to say to them, didn't your wife have a hairdresser? Don't you know anybody? But by being really comfortable with yourself, you end up making other people comfortable with it. not that big a deal. We're all the same. So it's the best advice I never took. Well, of course, Ian Scott was from a different generation. And while those of us who sort of watch what goes on at Queens Park all knew, I mean, he's right. He lived that way. He never confirmed. And it wasn't until he had his stroke, which was after he was out of public life, when all of his different worlds,

his political friends, his Rosdale friends, his gay friends all descended onto the hospital where he was recovering, and suddenly at that moment, okay, the jig is up. Everybody knows now. And I think he was, and he was okay with it after that. He seemed to have more understanding and acceptance of being openly gay after he had his stroke. Ironically, it took away his speech, which was kind of a cruel thing to happen to him. He was such a gifted speaker.

But in a way, it made his life easier to live in some respects. Is that fair to say? Well, yes, and he wrote a book, a memoir, and he was open there. He actually publicly came out when he gave the eulogy for his partner who died of HIV. Kim Yakubowski. So it took that. It took Kim Yakubusky's death for him to speak out. You know, I just think it's a shame because when you're young and you have no role models,

nobody that you can look up to that's got the guts to say it's okay. You don't have to hide like this. You don't have to lie to people. Just be yourself. Then you have to do it yourself. And I'm glad that I've had many, many young lawyers who are gay that said to me, you know, you made it easier for us because we saw that you made it. So we didn't have to be so afraid.

And I'm proud of that. If I've achieved, if anything that I've achieved means something, it's that I might have opened a door for somebody else who. who had to, who would not have to go through what I did. Excellent. I am happy to unreservedly recommend Harvey Brownstone's book without prejudice. My life is a gay judge. And of course, we want to remind everybody that a major motion picture is coming later this fall.

They should look for that as well. Harvey, let me do a little housekeeping here before I say goodbye. And that is to say we want to be, we want to express our gratitude to those people who either watch or listen to this program and shell out a few bucks every month to help keep us on the air. Patreon.com forward slash the Paken podcast. If you want to check out that site there and see what that's all about. All of our shows are archived at Stevepaken.com. Harvey, this was great.

I'm so grateful to you for your friendship over the years and for spending so much time with us here on the Paken podcast. Peace and love to you, my friend. Steve, thank you. As always, you've given me the best interview of my life. I'm so grateful. I wish you all the best. I love your show. And thank you for having me on. Until next time.