The Paikin Podcast - John Fraser: The Hidden (and Gossipy) History of Canada’s Governors General

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

John Fraser joins Steve to discuss his new book, The Governors General: An Intimate History of Canada's Highest Office, why he cares about this history when so few do, why it took 80-plus years to get an actual Canadian Governor General, and why it’s a position that is “merciless.” They also discuss every single Governor General since 1952, including the “magisterial” Vincent Massey, Georges Vanier, Adrienne Clarkson, and the “catastrophic” mandate of former astronaut Julie Payette.  Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcast Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznCIUEA11lZGcNIM4h?si=b5d73bc7c3a041b7X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social Email us at: [e-mail] 

It is a role in our country that goes back to the year 1620, and yet so many of us know so little about the job, despite the fact that it's quite significant in the daily life of Canada. What job am I talking about? Well, stick around and find out when we go one-on-one with author John Fraser coming up next on the Paken podcast. I am delighted to welcome John Fraser, author, Bon Vivant, Man About Town,

former correspondent for the Globe and Mail, and a guy whose new book, let me show the books here so everybody knows what we're talking about, is called the Governor's General, an intimate history of Canada's highest office. It's published by Sutherland House Press, and John, it is a delight to see you. How are you doing today? I'm doing fine, better for being on your show. I mean, people, you know, pay a fortune to get what I'm about to get, be on your show. And yet you paid me nothing.

And yet you paid me nothing. This is really a shame. Yeah, it's okay. Well, let's talk about this book, which is I can tell everybody. I have read it. It's fantastic. That's one of the reasons you are on here because I enjoyed it so much. But this is, let's be honest, this is not a role that a lot of Canadians necessarily spend a lot of time thinking about, but you do. How come? What a good question. I don't know. I grew up in a house where was largely indifferent to the crown.

In fact, I had a mother, went through a period of time where she was very anti-crown, wouldn't stand up for God Save the Queen. but she liked military tattoos. So can you imagine how humiliating that was to go with your, be 10 years old, with your mother, wouldn't stand up for God Save the Queen in 1955. Anyway, I think I'm a romantic. And I also, I had encounters.

That's what's weird about this book, is I had early encounters, first with Vincent Massey and then with the Vanniers. And I guess that ceded. things to some extent. Well, we're going to go through them. And I actually want to go through every single one of the governors general that you have known.

But let's also say, I was at your book launch yesterday at Massey College. And when Ken White, the publisher, got up to the microphone, he said, this is without doubt the sexiest topic we have ever done a book about at Sutherland House Press. And I'm pretty sure he was kidding. But I'm just trying to imagine the conversation that you two had where either you suggested to him or he suggested to you, I got this incredibly sexy topic that I think we need a book about. It's about the history of governors general. How did that go exactly? It's a story. I'll try and keep it compact. I have a friend who I is a mentor and a benefactor and his

name's Honorable H.N.L. Jackman, former lieutenant governor of Ontario, former Chancellor of the University of Toronto and the former visitor at the college, I had such a great time for 20 years running at Massey College in the U of T. And he asked me on the eve of my 80th birthday, what was my next book? I said, I'm not doing books anymore. You know, I'm not like Steve Paykin. I can't just turn them out. They're hard work and I'm getting old. I take naps. He said, nonsense. You should do a book on the Governor General's of Canada. And I said, oh, that'll go to the top of the hip parade. That's what the world's waiting for. He said, no, he said, you're mischievous.

It'll be fun. And I didn't think anything more of it. When I went away, I realized, not only am I so old, but I'm so old that if you just start with the Canadians, not the British grandees who had it up to 1952, I have known all of them. And I know quite interesting stories about all of them one way or another for different reasons. And I thought I could write a good book.

I'm not a scholar. I'm a journalist and, um, uh, and, um, and, um, um, and, um, um, and, um, um, um, and, um, um, maybe a tiny bit of a voyeur, and I thought I could write a good book. So I told Mr. Jackman that I thought I could write a good book, but still there were only going to be 15 people that would buy it. And he said, no, he said, this country needs some education. The Jackman Foundation will make sure that this book gets to libraries and to, oh, I said, that's great.

Well, that's more than 15. Well, anyway, so I went to Ken White basically with an audience. of about a thousand already keen to get it, even though if they didn't know they would do it. What is shockingly amazing is the timing. I think I have partnered to thank Mr. Trump for this. He's changed Canadians into people concerned about their country and the systems that they live under. And at a time of transition in the office itself, and it's about to change hands again. so it's in the news

so that's right because as we sit here taping this the newest governor general to replace Mary Simon is about to be announced we don't know who it's going to be but to be sure this story is going to be in the news a lot in the days ahead fair to say yes

and in fact is part of the promotion for the book the Globe Mail asked me to do an essay which is online now I guess it's going in the paper tomorrow and who I thought would be the next great Governor General. So I said myself, actually, but...

Yes, you did. But I had to disqualify myself for several reasons. One, my wife would walk out on me and secondly, I've got too many flaws and personality and too much baggage to take into the job. This is a... As poor Julie Paiette found out, this is a position that is merciless.

It's merciless, maybe more than an elected position because there is a sense that you're getting a sort of a life on a silver platter, and therefore we have a right to look into every detail of your life. This is speaking as a creepy journalist. And in her case, it took the Toronto Star two nanoseconds to find out some tragic things in her past that if the prime minister's office had done due diligence, would have precluded her from getting that job. Well, we're going to come back to her.

Yeah, I'm going to go. We want to build up to Julie Pallette because, as you pointed out, the role does go back to the year 1620, and you have not known governors general in Canada for that long, but you definitely have known them all. Well, that's pretty good. But you definitely have known them all since the 1950s when we got our first Canadian-born governor general who was Vincent Massey. And my first question about each of them individually is, why do you think it took 85 years from the time Canada became a country to the time where we finally got our first Canadian-born Governor General?

Why so long? Well, it could have come in the 30s. Mackenzie King didn't want one. He just preferred to get a British grandee. It's really hard to summon up the Canada of the United. of the pre-50s. It was a country that it may have been a quasi-colonies still

in a way, although we had since Confederation, but people weren't struggling under the burden of being lackeys to the British Empire. They're quite proud of it. And so the fact that a person with the title was had these sort of brandy positions

representing the sovereign, it wasn't controversial. It was something that people wanted to be involved with. So, it was an evolving thing. Canada is a country that doesn't do revolutions very well, but we do evolution quite well and is careful and cautious and that we, we fact spent about 30 years before figuring out who we would get for the first governor general. And when we did choose one, we got someone that was more English than the English. That was, there was an English aristocrat who said that when he was around Vincent Massey, he felt like such a, you know, a monster and an uncouth.

Seoul. I think he was a Duke or a Marquis. Now, Vincent Massey, when he became the first Canadian-born Governor-General, again, this is before I was born, but you would have remembered this and you did meet him. How big a deal was it in Canada to finally get a Canadian-born G-G? I think it was a big deal at the time. I was very young. I mean, he was appointed Governor General in 52. I was born in 44, so that lets you know how old I was. But I did meet him just after he stepped down from office in the story that I put in the book, which is meant to be a funny way to start the book off.

But he was a big deal, partly because, as Robertson Davies said, he was a dreamer. He had some unpleasant personality traits. But he was also the guy who dreamed up the Canada Council, the Order of Canada, hard house at the University of Toronto. college, Massey College. So he was a mixture of things, both very much a product of his time and his class, as well as someone who could actually dream beyond those limitations. Well, in fact, you know, for those who don't know, Hart House is named after someone in the Massey family, Hart Massey. Hart's the guy's first name. And what was the relationship between Hart Massey and

Vincent, Vincent Massey? Hart Massey was his father. And, and, and, and, And also he named his son Hart. So there's several generations of Hart, Massey's. And yet you say in the book, John, that you don't think Mr. Massey was that good a guy. Why did you say that? Well, he had those character flaws that people of his class in age had. I think he was probably, can you say a bit of an anti-Semite? I mean, he certainly was, yeah, he comes off badly on that front.

he was a snob he he insisted I mean this is almost incredible to tell the story of a Canadian but he insisted on being bowed to and curtsy when he was when he became vice regal

even in his privacy of his family his wife not his wife but his sister-in-law was expected to curtsy when she left the room it's just very hard to recreate that kind of atmosphere and tell it with a straight pace. So this wasn't an entirely pleasant person, but he was someone who did love Canada and did dream about it and left it with some amazing

institutions. Really amazing. They're still going strong. His successor, yes indeed. His successor was a man named George Vannier, appointed in 1959, a war hero who had a prosthetic leg. Maybe we could start there. What's the story behind how Mr. Vannier lost his leg? He lost his leg in battle in the first world war. It was part of, you can say it was part of his appeal. He was a veteran with his service, evident every time he walked with his cane and clicked his leg into place. He looked, he looked the role. He was an elegant patrician, lovely looking old gentleman. He had a spectacular wife who was sort of trained in the job.

He had been an ADC to the famous Lord Bing, who was a British governor, General of Canada. and they were of the old school, and they moved into Rideau Hall almost as if they'd lived there all their life. And they also had a natural way of reaching out to people, which Vincent Massey never did. Richard Bassie was not a natural people person.

He was a dreamer, and he dreamed up great institutions, but you wouldn't have wanted to go on a canoe trip with them, whereas you would have gone with the Vanyers anywhere in the world because they were lovely, warm couple. Was George Vanyer our first French-Canadian governor general? He was.

Did that make him more palatable to the people of Quebec? Yes and no. He was Governor General during the time of transition in Quebec during the Cultural Revolution. So he lived to hear himself being called a traitor on Jean-Baptiste. And, you know, it was something that wounded him deeply. But there was a whole generation of Quebecers who revered him. And a lot more Anglo-Canadians. but he lived at that transition, that difficult transition period for the country.

He's the first one I remember, and I was interested to note that you say in the book that you think the job cost him his life. What did you mean by that? That was his wife's line. She said he died for Canadian unity because Mr. Pearson wanted, it was a centennial year that he died, 1967, which was a big, big year for Canada. I think you're old enough to remember that. I sure am. So he wanted a French-Canadian to still be in office. There was a whole stream of heads of state coming to visit, including La Grande Chal from Paris, Charles de Gaulle. But

Madame Vanier said he died for Canadian unity because he did not want to keep going. especially during such a strenuous years. So he died in office. Well, his successor had an even more monumental task, and that was Roland Michner, who was appointed, as you point out, in 1967, and was the Governor General a few years later when Canada went through the October crisis. The British Trade Commissioner was kidnapped. The Quebec Labor Minister, Pierre Laporte, was assassinated by the separatists in Quebec.

and I wonder what role Governor General Michener had during all of that. Two things that are interesting about that crisis and the Governor General. The key person, the separatists wanted to kidnap was the Governor General. They wanted him tied up to a chair with cameras on him, and so the whole country could be watched, and with a deadline for him being executed on air. So there was that. And then the other thing was,

I believe I was right in writing that he insisted Trudeau's officials, let him know who had been arrested. He wanted to know all the names. And he was just quietly on guard for citizens. What was he going to do about it? I don't know. But he wanted, he didn't want his office to look that it was just neutered during this period, that he was the person who actually wanted to have the names of people. who were incarcerated for whatever reason.

The thing I think most people remember about Roland Mitchner to the extent that he is remembered is that he used to jog around this country in a red track suit and champion something called participation. He wanted Canadians to get up off their couches and work out. What kind of legacy do you think that leaves? I don't think these things last much beyond the person's life. He was the last, he was called the last Imperial

vice roy because he wore the extraordinary outfit, the British colonial outfit the governor's war, which had a lot of gold here in a hat with ostrich feathers. Can you imagine anyone trying to wear that today in Ottawa? But he was the last to do that. But he was a nice guy, General Chaffey, he started, as journalists, should be grateful to him,

he started the Michener Awards, for excellence in journalism. And, but he, you know, he was, it was not of the same character as Banya. He came from that same class, though, that was very used to being service in public, in the public realm and comfortable with the symbolism of a lot of the stuff that he had to deal with. So it was, in my view, it was a good governor general. He was succeeded by Jules, Leje, another francophone, appointed in 1974.

and I guess one of the disastrous things that happened on his watch was that he had a stroke, only six months into his term. What happens when the Governor General becomes incapacitated for a long period of time as Monsieur Leger was? Well, I have to say, I hope there's no Lesges listening. It was a heaven-sent stroke because it established the point that the Vice-Regal's spouse was just as good at handling. the particular ceremonial part of the government general's job, which is ceremonial and honorific.

It's reading speeches from the throne. It's handing out medals. It's presiding at dinners. And as Leje, health improved, he never really got his speech properly back. And he had mobility issues. But he didn't have to give up the office because Madame Legey effortlessly took it over. There is a wonderful scene during a throne speech. He would come in. He could just get about two sentences out. And then Esmond Butler, his, the secretary, was basically the deputy minister of the governor general, would go up, very reverentially take the speech from Mr. Mitchner, sorry, from Mr. Leje, and then hand it to Madame Lege, sitting on a smaller seat to the other side, and she would just continue reading it.

It gave me the example I wanted to make a point in the book, which is that the toughest thing in this whole vice regal game is being a partner of someone who's made a governor general. It's the Prince Philip job, the two steps behind in which you say nothing and basically have to eat your ego. And it doesn't have to be that way. and I think Madame Legge showed through that unhappy incident of the stroke that there's a way of sharing. And my view is that a modern relationship is built on a lot more equality than our grandparents had. And that there'd be ways small, maybe, but ways in which that can be shown. And there were vice regal consorts that had no problem with the position.

Madam Vanier had no issue with it. John Rolston-Saw, was married to Adrian Clarkson, had a very strong sense of himself. and he knew what he wanted to push in this position. But other, just about other, all the others had a problem. And I once had an interview with Stephen Harper, and he said the single biggest issue problem he had with all is, with most of his vice-fugal appointments, was spousal alienation.

You wouldn't know anything about that. You and I wouldn't know anything about that. But I can't tell you when I was, I was once asked if I wanted to be considered for a lieutenant governor's job, I had to say that, my wife said, if you want to play queen, you're going to do it alone because I've done this for you for 20 years at Massey College. So it was never going to be on the board. So, oh, do tell. What, what, what, what, what, um, the only one I would be eligible for, which is Ontario. And it was,

Ontario? Yeah, it was, it was, um, a process that it started with Mr. Harper in which he created a committee to advise him on on vice regal appointments and and uh the committee had an office in ottawa and and uh would get extra people for for the different provinces if they're going for lieutenant governor it's how mr johnson got chosen how how mrs dowd's about three or four lieutenant governors and what harper wanted he still wanted the privilege of recommending to the king i give you the official way of describing this, a person to be either a governor general or a lieutenant governor. But he wanted them vetted. He wanted to know who was appropriate. So he wanted five names from a sphere of different influences. He wanted to make sure that there were no problems

with any of them so that he could just look at them and he could decide who is the best person for the country. And I thought that is a kind of evolutionary breakthrough in the position. And And that was where, it was in that sort of a process that I was interviewed who I thought I thought I might like to see, Mike McAman for a lieutenant governor. And the end of it, I said, well, would you, would you ever consider it? And that's when I told them what Elizabeth McCallum, my wife. Who is your wife? And so who ended up getting the job instead of you?

And on that occasion, it was Mrs. Doudswell. That was Elizabeth Doudswell, who was the longest serving in Ontario history, and by all accounts. A wonderful, wonderful appointment. When you look up, Lieutenant Governor of Ontario in the dictionary, her picture should be there. She was absolutely the best at it. Not to say you wouldn't have been wonderful, but. Well, but she had an asset that I didn't have. She was not married.

Right. No spousal alienation in her case. That is true. She gave it all. You could almost argue that that should be a criterion. We'll be back right after this. The Insurance Brokers Association of Canada is all about protection. This spring, they will be in Ottawa to advocate for a consumer-first approach to federal initiatives

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years old. Number two, Pierre Trudeau appointed him, and he's a former NDP Premier of Manitoba. Why did he get picked? It was going to be in this tradition of the other ones. It was everything that I was able to find out. It was going to be a guy named George Ignatieth, the father of Michael Ignatiaf,

who was a diplomat and a public servant. But he was, Trudeau was persuaded that he should try something different to brighten up the office from the old gray-haired men. And I think that Shriar also was in Trudeau's good books because he had supported some of the constitutional initiatives that Mr. Trudeau had made. In any event, we learned several things on that is you should not appoint someone too young for that job because when it's finished, what do you do? In his case, they had to get him something, so they made him a high commission at Australia and that finished. And then he wanted to do something more, so he ran for office.

That's right. He ran again for the federal NDP, didn't he? So that's the lesson from there. And the other thing, Mr. Schreier is a good and decent man. And he had one incalculable asset, which was his wife, Lily Schreier, who was a warm, open-hearted person and made people feel welcome. But he was a good man who was quintessentially dull. I mean, he was, it just, there's nothing wrong with that.

Sometimes you need dull people to keep. things done. And he was a, for when he was Premier, as far as I knew, he was okay, he didn't get, reelected. But it started, the bad thing was it started to process where basically disused politicians were given the position. And that, that went on for two, three or four postings. Well, that takes us to the next one, who is Jean Sauvet, appointed 1984, again, by Pierre Trudeau, first female governor general ever. Yes, that was important. I guess I got a couple of questions here. Why did it take nearly 120 years before we finally got a lot of a female, Gigi.

Well, Steve, what years were you at University of Toronto? When did you... 1978 to 81. So you arrived when all that stuff was settled, but, you know, Massey College and Hart House and the residences, they were all single-sex. You know, everything, people were divided up until the end of the 60s. And women just... did not take on those kinds of roles.

The first female prime minister in Britain was Mrs. Thatcher, and that was when, then up until the 70s. We've only had one. The Americans still are trying to figure out how to get a woman elected. She may never want the job now. But anyway, I think it's just the times. The interesting thing is,

governors, many, not many, some of the vice regal chattelanes were quite strong. Even in the British grandees, there was a British governor general's wife. She was known as the governess general because she started the Nurses Association and in the 19th century. Those kinds of positions, that was what women had, sort of unelected positions of influence. but madam and and and i have to say in the vice regal game the provinces did better than the feds the first woman lieutenant governor in ontario was was mrs mcgibbon who was back in the 60s you're the

guy who knows ontario better than me but i think it was i think it was the 70s i think it was early 70s and yeah pauline mcgibbon was the first female lieutenant governor and was there when bill davis was premier right you're right it's the 70s that's early early and then But Jan Sauvay is another interesting story because given that she was a woman and her husband was a real, you know, he was a sort of captain of industry, a very active businessman. This would have been the first circumstance where the career of the partner of the governor general could get complicated. You want to give an example of that? Well, in his case, it wasn't. In his case, he adored her and was so proud of her.

and he kept his business going, and he did what he felt he had to do, but he had no problem with it. The only parallel one to that, I would say, is maybe in the provincial level of Mrs. Weston, Mr. Weston didn't blink twice. He was very proud his wife was Lieutenant Governor, but the business of Westons did not in any way get waylaid by Mrs. Weston being Lieutenant Governor. And with Mrs. McGiven, it just worked because they had that kind of relationship. And for Madame Sauve, same thing with her husband, Maurice? No, no. Her husband, this is in the book. Her husband was a bit of a scandal, actually. He was someone who saw, he had a kind of Trumpian sense of the office, that this was something that maybe is of value.

and he suddenly was on the boards of a number of companies that were doing business with the government. And I know for a fact, from a very good source, that he was making inquiries of decisions, government decisions that affected companies. This isn't a dredging business and this sort of thing. And it was very improper, and it could well have been a scandal. this was the person who tried to put a stop to it was the long-lasting Esmond Butler who was the secretary to the Governor General and he found himself out of a job

and sent off to Morocco as an ambassador. That's how we handle things in those days, eh? Just get them out of the country. Well, okay, we're into a bit of a pattern here with Ed Schreier, former politician, Jean Sovey, also a former politician. And then we get to Rain Etition, appointed 1990 by Brian Mulroney, former conservative cabinet minister, first non-Anglo, non-Franco,

Governor General. He had a Ukrainian background. The fact that he was a former Mulrooney cabinet minister, how much of a difficulty did that present when he was appointed? It caused a lot of commentary, but in the end, he was okay in the job. His wife had spousal alienation syndrome, but coped. And he wasn't spectacular. He wasn't terrible. And it showed that the job

could be handled by someone who had a sincere heart. The anecdote I put in the paper to show some of the sort of silly things that happened with these things is he made his poor sons were never allowed to sit at a table except

in a suit and jacket or a jacket and a tie because he He was, he was such a sense of awe for Rideau Hall and the, on, and the office that he didn't want to disrespect it by kids appearing in jeans. And, um, I just felt so sorry for those boys. Now, one of the things that Brian Mulroney did before appointing Mr. Notition was that he consulted with the liberal leader of the day, John Turner and the NDP leader of the day, Ed Broadbent, before making the appointment. No obligation for him to do that, but he did it. Yes. How important a precedent was that in your view?

Well, it wasn't. It wasn't because if he didn't like who they, he might be sort of trying to get, trying to do something positive in terms of relations, but he may also conceivably had a controversial one and wanted to get some people on side. You and I know a story in which Mr. Moroni found a provincial premier and asked extensively and got advice. And Mr. Moroni appointed someone so opposite. It was a, hysterical to what the advice was. So, I mean, that was Mr. Mulroney. He was consulted, often, still made up his own mind. Mr. Mulroney's successor was Jean-Cretien. He appointed Romeo LeBlanc in 1994, again, a former Liberal cabinet minister. So we're definitely into a kind of a partisan appointment situation here. That did cause a big stink. The opposition refused to come in for the swearing-in. They wouldn't sit in the house. And you don't have much good to say about Romeo LeBlanc. How come?

No, he was a good human being. I believe we can now talk about it. I believe that dementia had set in. I mean, that was part of the problem. It was foreshortened. His partner had the ultimate spousal alienation. She just hated the job. And I think they had to deal with someone who was,

who was losing it. And I put a story in, it was emblematic of that, it was also kind of funny, was that he took a deep offense one day, eating through his viceregal crockery and seeing at the bottom of it as heraldic lion sticking his tongue out at him. This is the lions that adorn every coat of arms

the country's ever had. Not only that has claws. There it is. There it is. There's the sticking tongue out. It has a tongue and it has genitalia. and he wanted he had it all removed it's got sort of it's got a slight hint of and he had it all removed the tongue the claws and the genitalia and but they couldn't do it to the silver of the cost and then

then he he had to be resigned and the madam clerkson came in and so the the claws came back and the tongue and all was well and we'll be back right after this 1999 Adrian Clarkson gets the job there was, I mean, there's lots of good stories about Adrian Clarkson in your book. Let's tell a couple of them here. She and the lieutenant governor of Ontario both wanted to attend a ceremony for Desmond Tutu at the University of Toronto, which proved to be a sort of protocol nightmare. What's the story there? Desmond Tutu was offered an honorary degree after the University of Toronto, and it was all organized to bring him over. and the president of the University of Toronto invited the lieutenant governor.

That was all that was there. And then Madam Clarkson got wind of it, and she is a devout Anglican and an admirer of Desmond Tutu, and she wanted very much to be part of that story. So she let the university know that she wanted to come. And there is a kind of a protocol here that the university was paying no attention to, which is a governor general basically trumps a lieutenant governor, sort of but doesn't. It's a whole interesting thing in that the lieutenant governors in their own bailiwick have,

they don't get trumped, at least they don't feel they should be trumped. In any event, this set up a squabble because Madam Clarkson's people talked to Mrs. Weston's people and said, you know, she should stand down. The Governor General is coming. And just as the Governor General, in theory, stands aside when the Monarch comes, that's how it goes. Well, this Lieutenant Governor was not going to step down.

And this Lieutenant Governor, Mrs. Weston, also came with a family that are important figures in Ontario for a whole bunch of reasons, including funding and at the University of Toronto. and there was no president of the University of Toronto was going to tell Mrs. Weston that she couldn't come and no one could keep Madam Clarkson away. So there was a bat tell royale.

There's all sorts of stories. Some of them are apocryphal. One story I love was that Mrs. Weston threatened to call the queen to solve it, and that's what ended the whole discussion. It's not true, but it was a story that made the rounds. So how did they resolve it? They both came. And a vice regal procession is preceded by, you know, an aid to comp in full military uniform and followed by the secretary with the speech in a leather case that is presented.

And so there were two vice regal processions. And it was. Well, that's a decent compromise, I guess, isn't it? It was the compromise at all. They just all came. Now, I do remember Adrian Clarkson trying to shine a spotlight on the, importance of the north. And she put together a bit of a tour of northern countries, because Canada is, after all, a northern country. And it turned into a bit of a fooferat. What happened there?

She had a great idea, which was to use her office. She understood better than any other Governor General in our history that the office was a platform. She didn't decree rules or anything, but that she had a platform and an ability to put a spotlight on things. And just as Mr. Kretchen used to have Team Canada go business trips abroad, she thought the cultural Canada should go abroad. And so northern countries were a natural thing, and she organized a big trip. This was supported by the government,

and it went to countries like Russia, Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, that sort of thing. There was a two-part thing. in between the first trip and the second trip, the cost of it became public through access to information. And I think it was the NDP that took particular exception to this and thought it was a boondoggle. They didn't buy into the idea that it was Canada showing its face, the world. I thought it was a great idea. I still do. But she got into such hot water.

And the next prime minister, after Christian Martin, he didn't get along with Madam Clarkson that well. And he's the one that should have defended her. And he just left her drifting in the wind, as they say. And GGs really can't defend themselves, right? They can't get into arguments with politicians about stuff, can they? And they have, they basically have to take advice. That's what happens if you're not elected. you have to take advice for elected people.

There's one thing about Adrian Clarkson's time as Governor General that I think is a real shame, which is she really helped put women's hockey on the map by donating a trophy that women's hockey players would compete for, the Clarkson Cup, just as the Stanley Cup was presented by Lord Stanley of Preston, a former Governor General, and the Grey Cup for football was a gift as well of a former Governor General. unfortunately when professional women's hockey got its act together and they now have a league they don't compete for the Clarkson Cup they compete for something called the Walter Cup which is I guess donated by the guy who owns the league I think that's too bad what do you think about that agree it should be the Clarkson Cup should be back in business

Stanley Cup's named after a governor general and and Clarkson Cup that was that was a beautiful gesture. And before we leave Madam Clarkson, who's not a controversial character, but she's a well-known character to lots of Canadians, because she's a strong personality. But she was a great Governor General. She showed on the one hand the limits of power you can go

in pushing the office onto the Canadian people, but she also had this incredible ability to reach into people's hearts. And I put the whole of her extraordinary speech on the return of the unknown soldier. to Canada because it was one of the best bits of public oratory that we've ever heard in this country.

And she had this ability to bring all the disparate strands somehow together and showed that there were things that united us. We didn't even know about, but that they were there. And to me, that's what a Governor General can do if they're motivated. John, would it be churlish of me to remind you that you also called her, quote, a difficult customer in your book? Well, we had our ups and downs in relationship. We're strong personalities.

I give quarter, and she gives quarter, but not often. Okay. But I admire her hugely. Her successor, Mikhail Jean, 2005, and I love this part of the book because your daughter was a big fan of hers and told you, Dad, don't be such a smart ass in dismissing her. was it your inclination to do that given that? Yeah, this is the problem. She was the one Governor General I didn't really know of all the ones that were in there. I hadn't managed to get her to come to my college.

I hadn't been involved in any of her initiatives. I followed the prerogation issue that she had to deal with, which was to me the most interesting thing to write about it. and I was aware that her husband was a controversial figure at the beginning because people thought he was a separatist. He was actually French national. There was a problem over his passport. But I was maybe a bit cynical about her appointment by Martin because I thought he hadn't put a lot of thought in it. He was trying to check off sort of some points to do with this.

But Kate Fraser, my middle daughter, who. who was a filmmaker and a social worker, had actually knew her and actually seen her at work because my daughter had worked with immigrant women, young women, coming to terms with coming often from very conservative cultures into a liberal society with conflicts between parents and children. And Kate was also, she worked with schools without borders

on using film as a way of people that couldn't talk about certain things, they could talk to a camera. And so she and she saw the help that Madame Jean came to three, four, or five events or, or institutions that Kate had been involved in. And she had a dramatically more insight into what her challenges were than I had. So I just, for once in my life, sat and listened at the dining room table. I have three daughters and a strong life. Let me tell you. You know, I mean, and so I more or less, at one level, let Kate tell the story. And I accepted that I actually didn't have the qualifications to do properly on Madam Shan.

So I passed it over to someone who did. Well, let's be a little more specific about that. Your daughter said that Michel Jean, as a black woman, may have particular challenges in that job that you as a white man might not understand. Was she right about that? Yes, of course. She was. I do now. Okay.

Now, Michel Jean, I think, is probably best known for the incident where Stephen Harper tries to pro-rogue Parliament because he's about to face a date with the noose. I'm being figurative here, but essentially he was about to lose a non-confidence vote. And instead, he prorogued Parliament in hopes of buying time. And he went to Rita Hall to meet with Michel Jean to ask for a prorogation, and she made him cool his heels for several hours while she consulted experts. How do you think she managed all that? Brilliantly.

Because that's what she should have done. That's the only power left to a governor general. The only actual power is to make sure that what is being asked is proper for the country. I mean, if she had got word from a combined forces of the opposition that they had come to an agreement and they they could control the house, she would be, would have been within her rights to say, all right, well, I'm not going to allow a prerogation. I'm, I've got, I've been assured that the house can be kept together by this coalition that has presented itself. And Harper would have, his heels would have been permanently frozen outside. He did not like being kept waiting,

especially by, you know, especially by someone who wasn't elected. And he had a lot of respect for the office, but not then, not at that moment. He had those much respect as McKenzie King had for Lord Bing. And I'm just referring to another prerogation crisis, where Governor General did hand on to an opposition. In any event, I had sort of a side view of all this because there's a, a way. wonderful old history and political science prof at the UFT, Peter Russell, was semi-retired, but he was an official constitutional advisor to the Office of Governor General, and he got summoned into action.

And I was on the sidelines watching what happens when an academic gets hauled out of the obscurity of academe into the front pages. A limousine arrives to pick him up from the university, take him off, to Ottawa's picked up by Vice Regal limousine at the airport and consulted by the Governor General of Canada about the future governance of Canada. I have to tell you, Peter Russell, was not that humble during those that day. I know. I took a classroom, a U of T. I remember. He was tough. And I think he probably, I don't know this for sure, but judging from it, I think he probably told her she was within her rights to keep, keep him, keep him off. You know, you are going to have to

accede to this. You have not got, I'm assuming all this, but I think it's probably true in its generalized. And he said, you don't have anyone saying that they can form another government. And the government of the day, which as far as we know, is still the government and has asked you to do something, you do have to accede. But you have a right to look at it carefully. This is a minority government. And you don't want, and your job at this point is to make sure there's not an unnecessary election. So da-da-da-da-da. So she taught Stephen Harper a three-hour lesson or whatever it was.

That's right. I remember being at a lunch with her, this is many years ago, and I asked her about this incident. And I said, you know, ultimately you gave Stephen Harper his prerogation. How come? And she said, look, there was no actual vote of non-confidence taken yet. And he was my first minister. How could I deny the right of a first minister absent a vote to give him what he wanted? And it took her a few hours, obviously, to get there with Peter Russell's help.

But that was the decision. And, of course, Mr. Harper managed to wait it out. And the opposition coalition fell apart. And Stephen Harper lived to fight another day. And that's how it all worked out. I think the key there was there was not an actual vote had not taken place. Correct. Yeah. Okay. The next guy.

Harper was a pretty sly cat too, you know. I mean, he was doing. The next guy, David Johnston, appointed in 2010, again by Stephen Harper, and I don't know about you, but when I think of Governor's General, he's sort of the prototype that I think of. What did you think of the job he did? Great job. And I think the way he was appointed was great. He was according to the, system that Harper put in place from a committee. So you vetted him then? I was not on that committee. No.

Ah, okay. But you're content with the committee's decision? Yeah. And the committee's capable of getting it wrong, too, I suppose. But at least, at least they, and, you know, he came with, he had some baggage. He had some baggage to do with, for some of the political. In O'Don, they didn't like that he had let Brian Moroni off the hook on the, on the, on, on, on, on, on, on, on, on a prior, um, cause, celeb. Um, but basically he was an educator, very distinguished, uh, and had, um, had a, had a, um, had a, had a, had a, um, had a, had a good record. And, um, actually, about two days before, uh, it was announced that it was to be him. I was at the, and Prince Philip were in Toronto, their last trip to Canada.

And there was a big dinner at Royal York that Harper gave. And I was sitting at David Johnson's table next to Mrs. Johnson. And I was pretty sure I knew it was going to be them. I was like 90% sure. And I had my spies well located. And I said, Ms. Johnson, I think your life's going to change. I suspect your life's going to change. her eyes watered up.

And I knew then... Sharon's eyes? His wife? Her eyes started watering. I knew that she was just terrified of it. And yet by all accounts, she was a fantastic Shadeline. She was. But she had a really hard time adjusting to it.

And she was a good soul. And, you know, the ending... He was a great Governor General, and he should have been allowed to be in a wonderful pasture. at the end of it and left alone. And that damn Justin was trying to get out of a pickle. And so he sort of dragged him back into the limelight

and sullered the reputation a little bit with that, asking him to judicate whether it had been Chinese interference. Well, you know that story. Indeed. Well, while we're on to Justin Trudeau, let's talk about his advisor, Jerry Butts, whom you discussed in the book. And you and Mr. Butts had a conversation

in which you told him, you kind of like these. It was a conversation in which I'd send him an email saying that I thought you do not like Harper. But this was a good idea. I was hoping. The vetting committee was a good idea. The vetting committee would continue because I thought it was a good way. And I thought a prime minister should be grateful for it.

But as Mr. Butts lectured me, he said, yeah, they're very proud of it. But we think we can do better. And better turned out to be Julie Payette. Julie Poyette, a Justin Trudeau appointee in 2017. On paper, she seemed perfect for the job. Astronaut, scientist, great public profile, a brilliant career. What happened? They didn't do due diligence.

Meaning? Well, it took the star, I don't know. I said it in the book, two nanoseconds. I meant it that it found up very quickly that it wasn't. do it purposely, but she did run down a homeless person and killed them in a car accident. And she also spent, she also was detained by police for going after her estranged husband with a weapon. That's a domestic turmoil, which normally wouldn't have come out in her life, but for the fact

that she was being considered Governor General. And they claim later that they did do check that. They obviously didn't check. they would not have appointed her governor general that they'd known this kind of stuff was out there. Well, and all this came out before she even took office, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she had to go through talking about how sad she was

and something she'd have to live with that she killed this poor homeless person. And they never checked with anyone at the Montreal Science Center. What was she like as an employer? They'd have gone there. They'd have found out that she, here's the tragedy Steve

this is a woman who had made it through engineering school a French or Canadian woman from working class background that got itself an engineering degree

in a classroom full of alpha males that got into one of the most competitive systems to get to be considered as an astronaut and ended up down

NASA among just the most complete alpha males got into space and all of the qualities that made her so spectacular, even better than most men would be to get that position, were exactly the wrong qualities for the position of Governor General. There's the tragedy.

And I know this is retrospect looking, but that should have been obvious from the fact that she had low patience for ineptitude because she like stuck done like she was on a Cape Canaveral spaceship. You don't make mistakes and you get angry if they're done. So it's a nightmare job that she got.

One of the things about your book that I like so much is that there are many personal moments in the book that you share and you did share a personal confrontation that you and she had in which she accused you of being part of a quote-unquote lynch mob trying to hound her out of office. Did you think there was any truth to the accusation? She certainly believed it.

She said she was lynched. It's hard to sum it up. What she was entitled to was a chance to have her own consultation about what was happening to her. And she never was given that opportunity. The prime minister arrived and said it's over, you know. And she didn't have a lawyer present. and she claimed she tried to get hold of the chief justice

and he wouldn't return her calls. Well, in the confrontation, I didn't say, that's because he's probably already spoken to the chief justice to tell him that he's going to be the acting governor general. She had during the time she was in Reidel Hall, she had made herself alone, you know. She had resisted any advice or help so that when this moment came,

she was completely alone and didn't know who to go to, There was no one around to help her because no one wanted to help her. People had tried to. But nevertheless, it was a tragedy. And she had a right to some legal advice about what her position was, her constitutional advice. My, the aforementioned mentor, Mr. Jackman, said she was lynched. All right. Let's move to the current Governor General, Mary Simon.

And you say in the book, ooh, John, John, you say in the book she's quote-unquote missing the boat. What does that mean? she's sort of a one issue governor general um she's she's a good person i um no i'm now i'm of course i'm feeling guilty that i wrote anything nasty she's about to step down but she's not been she's not being a great governor general she's been an adequate governor general and she's got a wonderful partner who's warm and lovely person um also a fraser whit whit fraser who's got a memoir coming out right now yeah i called her the grim prioress of Rita Hall because because she does have a problem trying to make people feel welcome.

She does have a problem communicating any sense of warmth or joy. So that's just her nature. And she maybe makes her really good at the work that she did before. But she was not a suitable governor general. I mean, she's done the basic things, of course. She gives up the medals. But so did Romeo LeBlanc. And he had dementia.

That's not what you're looking for in that job. for some inspiration. And one of the reasons I still support the connection to the crown is that little bit of medieval, whatever it is,ism in the hereditary monarchy actually adds a tiny bit of something, stardust or something, to this job. If we had Governor's General of the repeated quality of David Johnson and Adrian Clarkson, I don't think I would be so keen on keeping the link, but I don't think we know how to do that consistently. So having a little bit of extra magic and also tied to indigenous realities, which people tend to dismiss and they're foolish to dismiss it is a reason for holding on to the crown. Well, let's finish up with a bit of

a lightning round of questions here, okay? I'm going to give you fast questions and I want fast answers. Number one, who was the best governor general of your lifetime? Tide, Banyay and Clarkson. and define best how? One was the, emphasized the dignity of the office and the other, the romance and potential of the office. Who was the worst Governor General of your lifetime? This was poor Julie Fayette. And worst because?

Because she did not understand that the job was not about her. It was about the country. Who should be our next Governor General? How about you, Steve? How's your French? How about I'm not qualified because I'm not fluently bilingual, but nice try, John Fraser. How was Mr. Johnson's French? How was Madam Simon's French?

Oh, my God. You're so mischievous. We're moving on. Seriously, though. Who should be the next Governor General? You would be wonderful, Steve. Oh, stop. All right, we're moving on.

Bring the whole country together. Do you know? I'm moving on because that's a ridiculous answer. Do you know which Governor General, Queen Elizabeth, liked the best? I don't know, but I do know who she liked a lot, and she loved John Kretien very much. And gave him a huge... As Prime Minister, yes. But which Gigi did she like the best?

Oh, I think probably Mr. Massey, funny enough. I'm no kidding. Okay. All right. She let his dog carry a purse, you know. There was a famous picture. Now you've already told us that you were under consideration for a lieutenant governor of Ontario position to the best of your knowledge were you ever under consideration for the governor general's position

it was and that turned it down to because my friends are you really which prime minister considered you um the same one the same one no it was it was I was asked by the committee, if I was asked, first of all, who I thought might be good. I mean, I started something called the Institute for the Study of the Crown in Canada, which was to aid and support understanding how our system works. And in the course of that, one of the people that were on the original committee was a wonderful French-Canadian theologian, Jacques Monette, who was also monochist, and he was one of the people that went around asking. And I was asked if it was offered,

would I be interested in it? And I was able to give the same answer twice. But that would have been one of several people that would have been asked. And it was under the Harper regime. It was flattering. But knowing you as I do and knowing how much you care about the crown and knowing about how much you revere this institution, do I infer correctly that this has to be one of the great disappointments

of your life that you felt you couldn't accept the job if offered? Wrong. I knew it would be a terrible job for me because of some character traits, which are really good for journalism, but they're probably not very good for that job. And I said in this article in The Globe this morning, I talk too much. I don't believe in secrets.

I think those are for spies and people who want to feel self-important. and I suffer fools gladly because I like them, and sometimes they're very wise. I mean, I have dramatically inadequate skills for that job. And there you go. John, you'd have been entertaining as hell in the position. It would have been fun to cover that. Yeah, yeah. As a single man, too, that was the other issue.

Yes, Elizabeth McCallum might not have hung around for the ride. That spousal alienation might have been a thing with her. I want to thank you for writing the book because it's really, as John Ibbotson said in the Globe and Mail, you are so gossipy and delicious. And those are great ways to describe the Governor's General and intimate history of Canada's highest office by John Fraser, our guest. Thank you so much, John. It's been great chatting with you. And Steve, don't say no when they call you, okay? Oh, stop it.

Moving on again, you're so difficult. a reminder to everybody, patreon.com forward slash the Paken podcast where you can find web exclusive videos and make some story suggestions, including probably the idea that we're never having this guy back on because he's such a mischievous guest. All of our shows are archived at stevepaken.com. Thank you, John Fraser. I think. Peace and love, everybody. See you next time.