The Paikin Podcast - Mark Shapiro: Losing Game 7, Chasing a Ring, Geopolitics, and Trump

Episode Date: May 5, 2026

President and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays, Mark Shapiro, joins Steve at the Rogers Centre, perched atop the dugout, to discuss last year’s World Series, the heartbreak of game 7, chasing excellence instead of outcomes, his father, Ron Shapiro, and if he thought he’d be with the Blue Jays this long. They also discuss why the election of Trump has made him happier to be in Canada, geopolitics and Israel, rising antisemitism in Canada, his Jewish identity, the expiring CBA, the prospect of a salary cap in baseball, and the impending negotiations.   Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcast Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznCIUEA11lZGcNIM4h?si=b5d73bc7c3a041b7X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social Email us at: [e-mail] 

Thank you for sitting down with us. Yeah. I expect this to be a very fun conversation. I want to know when the president, the CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays, stops replaying the 11th inning of Game 7 in his head on a daily basis. I stopped the day after. You know, I spent a lot of time processing that game before it started, you know. And I spent as much time thinking about how I wanted to handle if we won. as I did, how I wanted to handle if we lost. But I thought exhaustively, you know, and the things I thought about were trying to stay true to my beliefs

and what drives me in this game, which is, you know, there is a randomness to outcomes. And those outcomes cannot define a career, does not make me a better leader, does not make me a better father, a better partner, a better son, a better brother, a better friend. And maybe most importantly, won doesn't make me any greater. But if we lost, didn't, didn't lessen, you know, the most important

roles I have in life. And so when we lost, I pretty matter-of-factly kind of turned, hug my son, hug my daughter, turned my back to the field, went in my office, a lot of my extended family and friends were here, you know, spent a few minutes talking to them, consoling them. And went home, slept, woke up the next day. ever Rogers called and he said, you know, how do you get past this? Like, how do you move forward more than anything? And so I know fans who haven't. Yeah. And he said, you know, listen, it's been a ride for a month. You know, I've been on this incredible ride and, you know, it's, I don't want it to end. And he said, what, what are your, how do you think about getting

passed? I said, I think about the only way I know to get past it. The only way I know to find solace and the only way I know to find purpose. And that's return to the pursuit, return to the process. But it's twice for you. It is. I was much, I don't think I had a sense of the magnitude in 1997, you know. You just set this up because you were formerly president of Cleveland Indians. I was. In 97, I was the, I was the farm director, you know. Okay. But they lost in the game. Yeah, it was an extra inning game. You know, we blew a save in the nine, you know, on the road instead of at home, but a similar set of circumstances. I remember that the GM, John Hart was on, was called down to the clubhouse because that's where they did the

campaign celebration was sitting on a stage, you know, with the champagne out. And then they blew, you know, Jose Mesa blew the save. They covered up all the lockers, took the champagne out. And two innings later, it was Florida, not us that were celebrating. It was crazy. But it sort of happened with Cubs and Indians as well. Now, I know you'd left by that. I was my first year.

But that was your team on the field still. And they lost in the seventh game. It was a team we played in the, you know, in ALCS. So yeah. Do you not find that your sick? of seeing this movie already? I don't think that way. I genuinely don't think that way.

I mean, I believe in chasing excellence instead of chasing results. And just that's the way I frame and I genuinely authentically live by that and hold myself to that. And don't think, I don't think you can sustain a 35 year career in a game like this

if you are only judging yourself by outcomes and results. Now, listen, this is what I would say. There is a balance. It doesn't make me less competitive. You know, I want to win 162 games. I go home, never feeling as good when we lose, and it takes me a little while to get over that.

But when I think about where my energy goes, it doesn't go towards feeling sorry for myself. It doesn't, you know, I feel bad for the little kids that, you know, cried going to sleep that night. But I... You weren't one of them? I was not one of them. You did not cry going to sleep that night.

I did not cry to go to, no. I like, listen, I like, I wanted to get back to work and chase it. you know, chase down the next opportunity. Before we talk about your work, I want to take you back. Cal Ripkin, your favorite player growing up? Probably Brooks Robinson as a little kid. Did you ever meet him?

I more than met him. So I grew up going to Oriole Games. My dad was a son of an immigrant, a lawyer, like love baseball. Grew up in Philadelphia, loved baseball. He became a huge agent. And so this is the story that led him to that. So he was just, he was a corporate lawyer, law school and Securities Commissioner of Maryland, which was like a part-time job.

So security, you know, ahead of all securities law. And Brooks Robinson signed a sporting goods deal and the sporting goods company went out of business. It was called Brooks Robinson Sporting Goods. He didn't own. He just endorsed it, put his name on it. They went after Brooks for the money and the owner of the Orioles at that time, Gerald Hoffberger, was a brewer, funny enough.

When came to my dad and said, could you help Brooks out? So my dad helped him through bankruptcy, helped them out of that, got out of that issue. Didn't go bankrupt, but it got him disentangle from that company. And Brooks in 1976, I think, said to my dad, would you negotiate my last contract? And my dad, like, you know, we had seats. This is no lie.

We had two season tickets by third base in Memorial Stadium in Baltimore just so we could watch Brooks Robinson play. 16 consecutive golden gloves. The greatest defensive third baseman of all. ever yeah so my dad was like uh yes you know he went to the library and he researched you know and he you know he came back and and he was schooled in negotiation by the GM of the orioles at that time Hank Peters yeah but he ended up negotiating brooks's last contract and brooks asked my you said to my dad I wish you were there 20 years ago there were not a lot of agents then

and brooks and my dad went in the business together and ended up representing you know when the orioes won the world series in 19th I think my dad had 23 of 25 plays, something crazy like that. He represented that many players. They gave him a World Series ring. They took him to Japan on the tour with them. How's he doing incidentally? He's 83.

He's a, he's a beast. He wakes up every day, works out, 100% mentally fine. So you knew Brooks well. I knew Brooks. So I went from hanging over the rail trying to get Brooks. I literally have a picture where I waited in line to get the book. Third Base is my home. He wrote a book.

I'm sure Ghost Writer wrote the book. I waited in there. for like four hours to get Brooks to sign it and I have a picture of me and Brooks sitting at the book signing so the guy that hung over the rail I went over to I was going on vacations with him and him he as a as a thank you to my dad one night at the house we grew up in the doorbell rings at like seven eight at night and we go to the front door and no one's there and his 16th golden glove is sitting on the door mat of our front door he had left it for my dad as a as a gift thanking him

for all the for all the things he had done for him so So don't meet your heroes. Yeah, so he became, and he is, he was, he died not too long ago. He was, he was worthy of that, of that moniker. He was a gentleman, unbelievable human being, completely unaffected by fame and accomplishments and treated all people, you know, incredibly well with grace and just an incredible person. So a great, great first player. And then that led, you know, Eddie Murray, who was a hero of mine growing up as a kid,

same thing. I spent a night at Eddie's condo. So then I started to grow up around baseball. But this happened at like in my teen years, I went from being the fan to all of a sudden growing up with these guys. Some of them were like living, you know, sleeping on pull-out couches in our living room. They came to the big leagues. But there is a danger in meeting these guys if they don't turn out to be everything you hope they were. I think I was fortunate that so many of them were pretty. My dad's client base was was a pretty special client base. And I think that's what they, what drew them to him probably, you know,

and him to them. He never did it full time. He only did it as he was always a corporate lawyer and had the representation on the side. Represented, you know, ended up representing a lot of news anchors. You represented Oprah Winfrey early in her career, early in her career when she was in Baltimore.

Ron Shapiro is a beast. He is. He's written four books, you know, and some corporate law books as well. Yeah, he was a incredible father. Any question that you are in this business because of him? I think there's the, he did not encourage me to be in this business. In fact, he dissuaded me.

He said there's only 26 good jobs. It's a tough business. You don't not want to be in it. But there's no question of him in it because of him, right? Because my love of the game, my bond with him, my standards and expectations for what true professional. look like for what those type of players look like. My appreciation for how hard it is and, you know, my, and really my, I've always kind of reverted to my belief in players and pulling for players instead of being critical

players. And for an office, people usually take one of the two tracks. They become hypercritical because they watch so many games or they're, they're pulling hard. And I've always wanted to have the kind of players you pull for. And I think that comes from. my dad being an advocate for players. And back then, agents were advocates.

They're no longer advocates as much, but back then they were advocates. He kept Kirby Puckett in Minnesota for his whole career. Kept Cow Ripkin in Baltimore for his whole career. Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer. He was part of understanding what do they want. And let me help you do that and get the best deal possible, but achieve the things that are important to you personally too.

When you came here from Cleveland a decade ago, did you think you would still be here this long? I never think that way. You know, I always, I was just doing an exercise from my kids, like writing some things down. And I think the bigger surprise was I was in Cleveland for 24 years. You know, I think when I entered Cleveland as an entry-level cubicle dweller with no title, the thought was, well, to move up to move up in baseball, I'm going to have to just move. You don't advance unless you move, you know.

So I thought, hey, when I became farm director to be an assistant GM, I'm going to have to go somewhere. I became assistant GM in Cleveland. I was assistant GM. I thought to be a GM, I was going to go somewhere. And then I became GM and then president, all in Cleveland. That was more of a shock to me. Coming here, it was clear I wasn't going to move up from the role that I had here. And I came here as much for the city and the country as I did for the job.

The job was a unique one. The job offered the few things I had written down that will be compelling. for me to leave Cleveland, this job offered, including some of the projects, you know, undertaking. Well, I was going to say, this place looks nothing like what it looked like when you and Dunedin and, you know, some of the other, and really just the organization, you know, being having a chance to really sink my teeth into helping modernize and build out an organization and its culture.

How long does it take, though, for you or how long did it take for you to stop thinking of yourself as a guy from Cleveland who now lives in Toronto and is a real Trontontontontian? That's a great question. I don't know if I've got a moment that I felt that way. Maybe getting my citizenship was kind of like, okay, this is like, you know, I'm not a permanent resident anymore. Like, you know, I have two passports now, you know, and maybe the, maybe the U.S. election, you know, made it easier, you know, after I was here for four years. Was that I mean? I think the desire to distance myself from the current U.S. president, you know, and made me more proud of,

some of the social dynamic and the values and, you know, the, it was, it was some of the reasons that moving here was compelling, you know, the open-mindedness, the progressiveness, the compassion and empathy that I felt were not, obviously, there's no, there's no, no attribute like that's going to be with everyone, but we're more pervasive here than what was being espoused by leader, you know, by the leader of the free world in the U.S. Because your dad was very much involved in politics. My dad was. He was involved in elections as, you know.

So did you want to be as well? I, you know, I worked campaigns when I was a kid but had no, had no attraction to politics. And my, you know, I am not bureaucratic by nature. I struggle with that. It's probably a weakness of mine, you know, navigating bureaucracy. And so, no, I have no desire to be in politics. I don't have to tell you. A former Blue J. President named Paul Godfrey was very.

involved in politics once upon a time. And he has, you know, that my, my gifts are very different from his. He's got, you know, a different set of gifts. He's an, it's incredibly inspirational person and a warm and was so welcoming to me and has been for my whole career. But you don't endorse candidate. You don't hold fundraisers at your home. No. I did that a little bit in Cleveland, a little bit. Yeah, at, you know, the time when Obama was coming in, I felt it was important to kind of do what I could for him. And a couple other local leaders. that I felt were a US senator that I felt really aligned with, but had not gotten involved in any way here.

You know, it feels like there's a, the gap here is much narrower anyway. You know, there's the social dynamic is relatively a narrow band. And so I'm more comfortable being on a sideline here politically. And the politics I've had to navigate here were largely during COVID, you know, it was like, it was an education for me in parliamentary, political structures. I'd never had that education in my life and I had a level of exposure at the federal provincial and city level that were, you know, I learned a lot on the fly. I had to. You've probably noticed something changing at your favorite restaurant, maybe at shorter hours,

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and when Israel has had probably fewer friends than ever. Do you feel that in your daily life? I don't feel it in my daily life. I'm aware of it in my daily lights. Judaism for me is extremely important in my identity and I think inextricable in my values. I don't think you can think about the journey of my family's history, which is really like

the historical journey of the Jewish people, you know, to some extent, and not think about resilience, character, perseverance, closeness to family, you know, as all being attributes that could be somewhat rooted in my Jewish identity. When it comes to spirituality, I'm probably less, you know, it's less a part of my daily life than it had been when I was younger. But I bet there are times you find yourself in circumstances

where the events of the Middle East are discussed. Of course, yeah. And do you support Israel under those circumstances? So I, I, it is, it is so complex. You know, I've been to Israel, it's so complex. It is such a deeply rooted historical, thousands of year old, you know, challenge that I, I choose to know what I don't know. And so, yes, I support Israel, and there are some Palestinians I support as well.

You know, I don't think it is a black and white, you know, as much as we seek simplicity in a complex world, you know, I have an inability to come up with simple, you know, yes, it's easy to, you know, support Israel in the face of terrorism. That's easy, you know, that's a no-brainer. but the geopolitical dynamic of how do you navigate, you know, that swath of land and how do you find, you know, who do you identify with and who do you support? I mean, I've got to leave that to people that spend, you know, they're alive studying that and understanding that and still struggle to come up with answers. You know, how to find peace. But by and large, I defer, you know, I want peace, you know. I don't want hatred. I don't want war.

I don't want persecution. So I think if I had to defer something, that's what I would defer to. I want to ask you about something you do know a lot about, and that is the financial architecture behind this game that you and I love so much. And I wonder whether, well, the first question I guess I've got to ask is, the basic agreement is up at the end of this year. Are we going to be having baseball next year, do you think? Yeah.

I'm not going to give you an answer on that, just because I think it's important from a league structure that I not become a spokesman, you know, when it could be detrimental to, you know, to the dynamic of a negotiation. I do think that there have been some fundamental shifts in the economic landscape that we've never seen in the game before, largely tied to the demise of the RSNs and what that's meant to the separate regional sports networks in the U.S. and what that's meant to the economic separation of large and small markets, the exacerbation of that chasm between large and small markets. So you start with a very simple understanding that of all of the major league sports that exist,

baseball is more locally driven, you know, than any other sport. And the only one without a salary cap. We don't have a cap and we don't, and we have much less revenue sharing. The combination of less revenue sharing and no cap creates, you know, the market reality. And no matter how much you maybe don't really look at data, you look at data on a self-interest, there is an undeniable fact that there is a direct correlation between the size of payroll and probability to make the postseason,

not to win a World Series, but to make the postseason. And so, you know, as payrolls separate further and further from the bottom five and the top side, you start to get fan bases that feel no sense of hope. And I think that is over time, that's a danger point for our game. And we'll be back right after this. Some people would make the other argument. I'm not making it.

But some people would say baseball has never been stronger than it is right now in terms of popularity. You've got the Dodgers spending $300 million a year and the Marlins $70 million a year. And yet the game persists. Dynasties, some would argue, are a great thing for baseball. The Dodgers have one now. The Yankees have had one in the past. And I don't know if it's better if everybody has the same ceiling

on what they're allowed to stand. I think you could probably, if you were going to make that argument, you could make that argument from a business perspective, but not necessarily from a fan perspective. Right. So it's a question of,

is it important to grow the game? And while baseball is in a better position, more people watch the two worst NFL teams play on a regular season game than watch the World Series. So we still have a long way to go to really become the game that we should be.

throughout North America. How concerned are you that the economics of baseball today are such that the game for a lot of people is simply priced beyond their means in terms of attendance? It's still the most affordable game in all of Major League sports. I agree with that. Yeah, I mean, I still feel like because we have 81 games, because we have 40,000 seat stadiums that we still have many nights. There's $20 seats available.

We have loony dog nights like tonight where there's dollar hot dogs. So I still feel like we've got something for everyone that, yes, the reality of building a modern baseball franchise necessitates that we had to re-end renovate the stadium to have premium spaces and generate that revenue to compete with our other large market, you know, competitors that, you know, a lot of whom lie in our division. But at the same time, you know, we built fan amenity spaces like Corona Rooftop and TD Park Social and the catch bar and riders landing where people can pay it for $20 and just come out and hang out different areas of the ballpark. So I think you pay attention to both. You pay attention to understanding that you've got different fans that want to watch the game different ways. Premium is something you need to focus on in today's world. This market has great depth in that area. But we also need to.

That's a nice way of saying there's a lot of rich people who are prepared to pay a thousand bucks a ticket. There's a lot of business here. Yeah, there's a lot of business here. And at the same time, you know, there are a lot of people who just want to come to a ballpark and be here for a game and slap high fives when they hear the horn go off and a home runs hit and may not want to watch the game, you know, the same way. So let me ask you a few snapper questions. Your greatest achievement as president, CEO, the Blue Jays is what? I don't think of my personal achievements, but I would say Marnie Starkman, Ross Atkins, Andrew Miller. it would be people, you know, like I think being a part of building an organization full of people who have great careers in sports, who care about each other, who are focused collectively on getting the best decision, the best outcome, the best result, not on their own credit, you know, and or

placing Blaine, and that are going to contribute to the Toronto sports landscape for a long time to come. Murney Starkman's dad almost beat me up at Maple Leaf Gardens about 50 years. years ago when the Leafs blew a lead late in the game and I popped off a series of swear words and he was sitting in front of me, turned around, grabbed me by the jersey and anyway, I probably deserved it. We laugh about it to this day. Okay, what's, maybe I don't need to ask this question, but I will just in case. What's been the worst failing on your watch as president and CEO? Again, like I don't.

You know what I give the answer everybody expected to give? Yeah, I don't, I don't, that's definitely not a failure. You know, that's coming up short, but there are so many things about that season that, you know, pointed to everything you want to do in the game, which is have a team that ultimately on the field that represents everything you stand for as an organization from a values perspective. Okay, so failure maybe is the wrong word. What's the big mission? Yeah, big mission still unfulfilled.

There's only one thing left. World Series. To win a World Series. Yeah. I don't have to tell you this, but I, okay, let me make a bit of a list here. Ted Williams, Ken Griffey Jr., Tony Gwynn, I could go on. Don Mattingly, who was a coach here, these are all people who are legends in baseball and never won a World Series. Yeah.

Will you, at the end of it all, if you don't get that ring, look back and say, I had a great run, but something's missing? No. No. because I think I define myself first as a father, first as a leader, first as a brother, a son, and a friend. And I am determined to say nothing's missing in those roles, including leadership of the Toronto Blue Jays. And so there is a randomness to outcomes, particularly in postseason. And so I refuse to, again, I refuse to compromise in my pursuit of that, but I also refuse. to place soul meaning and purpose and to define my career by that.

Have you talked to Don Mattingly about this? I mean, I talked to Donnie a ton about, but not about that specific issue. Because I wonder if he feels the same way. He had a great career, but he was a Yankee. And it's hard for me to believe that if you're a Yankee and you don't get a ring, that that can be considered a fulfillment of destiny. I mean, I guess I always think about it this way. I've talked to John Hart about it, who was my mentor and hired me in Cleveland.

when he was there, was the GM when we fell short. He never won a World Series. And I guess I think about it like very tangibly, like on my deathbed. Is that what going to be my thought? That's what I mean, I'm not trying to be morbid, but that is genuinely what I think. Will that be my regret and thought? I'm guessing that thought's not going to be anywhere close to what I'm thinking about.

Not going to be in the top 20 things that I'm thinking about in my deathbed. You know, it will be, was I the father that I wanted to be? you know, and are my kids, you know, healthy, productive, happy, you know, self-confident, is my relationship with them strong? You know, I will think about my relationship with my parents and my siblings and my partner and those are the things, you know, and my handful of close friends. And I'll think about the people that I've had the privilege of leading and hope that I held up to the standards that they would hold me to as being a character, you know, based leader

that help them to be better and more prepared to lead in the future. Having said that, if you did win a World Series, which finger would the ring go on? You've thought about this show. Well, yeah, we're going to get an Yale championship ring, so I can tell you, it's going on that. I'll happily replace that one, yeah. Have they not given those out yet? They haven't got them out yet. When does that happen?

Soon, soon. At a game? No, no, it's going to be a private ceremony. We get World Championship rings. We'll give those out of the game. That makes sense. Yeah. Mark, it's great to spend some time with you.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you.