The Paikin Podcast - The Hon. Elizabeth Dowdeswell: Is Canada’s Democracy in Danger?

Episode Date: April 19, 2026

Former Lieutenant Governor of Ontario Elizabeth Dowdeswell joins Steve to discuss the threats to Canada’s democracy, how fragile democracy can be, and her new award for “advancing democracy through education.” They also discuss her decade as Ontario’s Lieutenant Governor, voter turnout, if we should lower voting age, social media, the growing threat from AI, and how education can safeguard democracy. Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcast Follow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznCIUEA11lZGcNIM4h?si=b5d73bc7c3a041b7X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.social Email us at: [e-mail] 

The province of Ontario has had 30 lieutenant governors since Confederation, but no one has had the job longer than the woman you're about to meet. She had the job from 2014 to 2023, advising two premiers in two different parties and traveling to every riding in Ontario to do her job. Her post-vice regal life involves a new mission, which you may be able to help her out with, so stick around and find out what that is. Elizabeth Dowdwell coming right up one-on-one on the Paken podcast. We are delighted to welcome Elizabeth Dowdwell, the 29th Lieutenant Governor of the province of Ontario to the Paken podcast. And she has told me that now that she no longer has that official title that I should call her Liz, and I have assured her that is never going to happen in this man's Ontario.

So, Your Honor, it is great to see you again. How you doing? I'm just fine, Steve. it's lovely to talk to you. A pleasure to have your company again. It is often the case that when Lieutenant Gutters step down, they take on a new mission of some kind, dealing with an issue of importance to them.

So let's start there. What mission have you decided to focus your life on now? Well, I'm still doing a range of things from my passion about democracy to work on culture, continued work with the Crown, some work on sustainability and a bucket I call something I know nothing about. So I'll always be continuing to learn. Oh, okay.

I want to know more about that. What's the bucket about which you know nothing? Because you've done so many different things in your life. I kind of assumed that you knew a lot about everything. Oh, no. It's all very superficial, I can assure you. But it has to do with being curious and the opportunity to learn. No, the bucket I'm learning a little bit about.

is the bucket of health care. And I'm very fortunate to be able to sit on the board of the University Health Network. So I learn every day. It's fascinating. There was just a big study done about hospitals all over the world. And didn't they come second, I think? It was like second greatest hospital system in the world. They did indeed. Yeah. Is that because you've joined the board there? No, it has nothing to do with me at all. Let's talk about, oh, you know what? Can I I, okay, this is, I'm going to apologize in advance because I'm going to ask you a bunch of smart ale questions during the course of this, which I was never allowed to ask when you were lieutenant governor because I felt I had to, you know, be respectful of the role and all that, but you don't have the role anymore. So I'm going to try and be. But that's the name that I'll answer the questions.

No, I get that. I get that I ask and you either answer yes or you don't have to answer at all. But here's cheeky question number one. And, okay, we've talked about this publicly before. so I think I'm okay to say this. You are 81 years old now, which basically means you could sit back. You're at a time of life where you could sit back, put your feet up, and do nothing. And you don't do that.

How come? Because I love being engaged with people. I've had the pleasure of working all my life in a wide range of fields. And it's, you've got to have a reason to get out of bed in the morning. What can I say? Makes sense to me. Okay, let's talk about the new prize that is being created in your name by the, I guess, folks at Queens Park.

There's a ministry responsible for the creation of honors and so on. And there's a new one in your name. Tell us about it. Well, there is. And let me start by a word of gratitude. There is a tradition of being able to recognize lieutenant governors and something that matters to them. And what mattered to me was advancing democracy through education. I've spent so much of my time involved with young people and involved with the issue of democracy, that that seemed a way to go.

And the government agreed. And this is an award for teachers. And let me start with teachers for just a moment because I think we all remember, or many of us do, a teacher who had such an impact on us, who inspired us. And they do pay such a critical role in a really foundational role because they create the environment in which we actually come to understand things, which we can express our curiosity and which we become engaged with the world. teachers really, if they are active listeners, listen to us and also help us find our voice. So teachers are phenomenally important, I think. But if you want me to continue on, let me talk for a moment.

Please do, yes. Let me talk for a moment about democracy, something I feel very passionate about. You know, it's a big word. and we really take it for granted. Maybe it's because we've relied on the roadmap that is shaped by our Constitution and by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the values that we share, peace, order, and good government, all of those good things. And yet, over the past decade, I would say,

we found ourselves in a moment of time where there's profound challenge and change. And actually, our democracy can be seen as quite fragile, and we need to be vulnerable, we are vulnerable, and we need to be vigilant about it. You know, democracy has been shaped for me by three different kinds of experiences. The first is being an immigrant.

I was born elsewhere. You're born in Belfast. I was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland. and came very early out to the small town Saskatchewan and have learned a great deal about what it means to come to a new country and why you come and why you start out there. And it has to do with democracy. And then most of my life has been involved in public service of one kind or another.

And it didn't seem to matter what the subject matter was, but it was all about how do you actually engage the public in public policymaking. So after spending some time as a teacher, I've spent all my life at various levels of government, provincial, federal, and international. And the most intriguing thing is, how do you take those immense problems that we're facing, questions that we have,

and how do you make sure that there's a voice for citizens in shaping what that policy is? And so that's been key to everything I've done. And then, of course, the third experience is the most remarkable one, the privilege of being lieutenant governor for almost a decade. And to be able to not only do the constitutional work required, the ceremonial work required, but the real thrill is being able to convene people so they can come together with people they haven't met before

that they may never talk to they've never talked to before and all around learning about an issue and thinking through together what they might do about it knowing that as lieutenant governor you of course don't have the power to create laws and policies, and you have to be nonpartisan, of course. But it's a way of providing a space.

I like to call it a safe space for conversation, where people feel that it's an intimate space and their conversations are kept discreet. And so they can ask dumb questions, because there are no dumb questions. Well, I do that for a living. So here comes a bunch of them right now, because there's so many follow-ups from what you just said. Number one, I know it's a five-year term, and yet you were there almost 10 years.

How did that happen? I have no idea. No one asked me to stay. I just, you know, I think part of it probably was it was an amazing decade when you look back on it. Ceremonial things that were highly unusual, certainly related. to the monarchy. But we also celebrated Canada 150 in that period. We hosted Pan American Games.

We did all kinds of ceremonial things. And then we had a pandemic, a global pandemic. And we had to find new ways of doing things. And in many ways, I'd like to think that that was a time when a vice regal could actually demonstrate what that part of our constitutional democracy really brings. And it was a focus on citizens, how they were doing, particularly how our leaders were doing during that period of time. And so while I was at work every day, supported, of course, by my mighty team who were always in the background, but working at home. But it was a way of

reaching out and asking people how they were doing. And then drawing some observations. about what Ontario was like during that time. Well, you're one of the few, I think, who've been to all 124 ridings in the province of Ontario. And I have heard you describe democracy in the past as, quote, how we set the ground rules for an engaging society. So as you look around, not just this province, but outside it as well, how are we doing these days?

Well, you know, let me pick up on my business. view of democracy and it certainly isn't an academic view. It's, it's that democracy is so much more than a vote. It's the process, as you say, of setting the ground rules for how we're going to live together in harmony. It's not easy. It's complex. It's untidy. But when you listen to the voices of a vibrant civil society, when you try and balance rights while still upholding the rule of law, and building resilient and relevant institutions, that's not an easy task. It's about both knowledge, but also about behavior, respect, civility, fairness, all of those things. And it's about a well-functioning democracy relying on the underpinning of institutions. A civil society,

a non-partisan public service, an independent judiciary, a dynamic media, and as I say, a vibrant civil society. All of those things are required to make democracy work. And at times, we are, are not doing as well as we could in some areas. I bemoan the fact about the demise of local media, for example. I think we lose accountability when that doesn't happen. It's not only understanding what goes on in your own community. I think we pay too little attention to municipal government, that order of government.

We assume that all of the big decisions actually get taken by the federal and provincial governments. And yet the dailiness of our activity, the dailiness of our lives is shaped by what happens in municipal government. So much of our time over that 10 years was spent in really focusing on that level of government. And in each of those cases, there are, democracies never carved in stone. It has to remain responsive and relevant to the questions of the, And so, you know, we can think of all kinds of questions that arise.

Should we now be lowering the voting age, for example, to allow younger people to vote? Why is it that we have lower voter turnout perhaps than we should? What are we going to do with the impact of social media and the fact that we seem to have no way of mediating the misinformation and disinformation that arises? and of course the larger question of AI, which society as a whole is looking at right now, all of that has an impact on a well-functioning democracy. So you can see why it's so engaging as an issue. And one of the things that I think is so important is that you can start very young to learn how to cope with people, how to listen, how to engage in the world.

And that's what really excites me. I appreciate your excitement, but I also wonder whether there are not days when you despair for the state of democracy because of that checklist you just gave, whether it's the health of the media or civility and public life or excellence in the public service, which I'm sure there is. but I often hear about how much better it was back in the day to a neighbor to the south, which many people think is bordering on fascism right now. I mean, do you despair when you look around and you consider the health of our democracy these days? Every once in a while I have to give my head a shake and say, you know, just get yourself together here. I used to describe taking a toxic cleanse from social media, and I would only check on my media platforms when I was in the car, when I was being driven from one place to another.

But it really is easy to find yourself spending too much time. And I just decided that I'm an inherently positive person, and I don't have time to waste. being negative. I worry about things for a few minutes and then you think now what is it that you can do? What is it that you can say? And and that's why I really want to find a way of encouraging teachers to be the role models that they can be in terms of behavior. To really find ways to to support that curiosity that kids have. You know, there's a wonderful woman by the name of Annabelle Slate who runs the Clearwater Farm. And she works with children that she calls are in the wonder years from, I think it's five to ten, something like that.

When minds are still malleable and when you can work with them as students and really get them engaged. And she tells stories of the kids that she's worked with that when she said, what can we do? These were kids who happened to be concerned about climate change and the environment, for example, and started getting very anxious about it. And when she asked them what they could do to make things better, she said, the answer was, find some kindness. That's a great place to start. Isn't it, though? Absolutely.

You know, I spent so much of my time, we always had kids around us, whether it was the regular visits to school classrooms or honoring kids for volunteering, whether it was visiting literacy camps in the north, for example, doing Zoom calls with the young people during COVID to find out how they were coping. whether it was the regular conversations I had with pages and interns at the Legislative Assembly and talk about asking tricky questions. They always turned it around and asked me questions about me. But, you know, we did, there's so many stories, Steve.

I could just go on. We worked in partnership with Let's Talk Science, Peace Builders, Earth Rangers, High School Big Data Challenge, TVO Kids, the Governor General's Leadership Conference, the Connected North, an amazing organization that provides video conferences for students who have no access to teachers sometimes. The Duke of Edinburgh Awards,

worked with the Aga Khan to teach kids in a neighborhood photography so they could go out and take pay. pictures of what they thought was sustainable in their communities, and then brought them all to Queens Park to set up an art exhibit of their work. Can you imagine the excitement of these kids, first of all, learning something that was in their own neighborhoods? Talk to kids who are on municipal youth councils, for example, and a visionaries prize. Going with the going with young people, taking young people to the 99th anniversary of Vimy Ridge, which was, I mean, I just have so many of these stories that are memories that will continue.

But in seeing Ontario students at the UN, for example, working on sustainability issues, how fascinating is that? How amazing is it? And of course, I learn from them all the time. Well, I'm going to push you for one more story because I well remember Premier Bill Davis, who was Premier from 1971 to 85, saying that anybody who has had any success at all in life can thank a teacher for that. They must have had a good teacher along the way. So let me ask you, who was the most influential teacher in your life and why?

Oh, I had a French teacher, for example. And even though my mom had been a teacher, that was very important to me. But I had a teacher also who taught me about creativity, who just demanded the best in that, whether it was creativity in the way you prepared assignments, whether it was creativity and what you designed. and that was a person who was most valuable, whom I remember dearly. Was that in Saskatchewan? Yes. Wonderful.

Absolutely. You know, Saskatchewan, place does matter. And growing up in small town Saskatchewan was really, you learn about the DNA of the place. That's where things start, where you start collaborating and caring for one another, nurturing one another. And even though I've gone to many other places since, that was a place that was so important to that, that fundamental curiosity and risk-taking

and caring about things that matter to people if you're going to build a community that is resilient and is sustainable over the long term. And we'll be back right after this. What do you make of the fact that the society Saskatchewan you grew up in, which was after all the cradle of socialism in North America, is now the most reliably conservative province in the whole dominion of Canada. You know, I don't put labels on things.

I like to look at people as individuals. And for the most part, I have a great deal of faith and confidence in people and their relationships with others. I think we spend too much time really thinking about those who are not of that character. I think when you dig deep enough, you'll always find the good in humanity. I want to follow up as well on the fact that in the last Ontario election, I think the turnout was 48%. And we are now in a municipal election year and later this year in October, my hunch is, if past practice is any indication, we will get between 25 and 33% of the people out to vote. What do you think that says about the health of our democracy today?

Well, I think it is one of those questions that we really have to look at. When I say we're vulnerable and we need to be vigilant, that's a good example. I think if we do not have citizens who are actively engaged, and that starts right at the local level. One of the most rewarding moments for me, after spending time working with municipal governments, was an invitation to attend a very special function in Prince Edward County, where they decided to have a celebration of formal public event where they swore in the new counselors, the new municipal counselors.

and asked if I would go and witness it, which I did with great delight because it was just so important that the community embrace what they had just done. And I think we need to pay much more attention to that. And I hope that by spending time not just in civics classes, that's one thing, that's learning about the mechanics of things. but in classes where young people can actually get engaged in projects that they think are important but that are really illustrative of the way in which they deal with other people, the way in which they shape the kind of community they want. And fortunately, there have been lots of activities through a focus on environmental issues that are ripe for the taking

where you can show the impact that people have had very easily, whether it's taking school kids out to walk along the shores of the lake and clean up garbage, for example. And I certainly have, from my days internationally, have many stories of that.

Just, it goes a little off track. But let me tell you one. Sure. It was a conference that I attended and participated in in Belfast, actually, not so many years ago. It brought together young people from war-torn areas that told absolutely compelling stories of courage. And I remember an audience of adults just being reduced to tears witnessing these stories that young people were telling. And they weren't stories of sadness. They were stories of joy where you could understand how people,

how these young people had come through these issues. They listened to a man who had just been released from prison in Northern Ireland. And he totally unprompted, stood up and apologized to the young people for the role that he had played in violence. and I'll never forget that moment. It was a reminder of what we need in this world is thinking, caring, ethical human beings and that can start very, very early.

That whole city for that conference had signs up at the stop signs. They had signs up saying, way ahead, not closed. and I took that sign and have you, I still have it. Because for me, it's such a metaphor of what you can do when you have a way of shaping young minds. Nice story. You, of course, when you had the job as Ontario's lieutenant governor, were always very careful, not to say anything too political or partisan because, of course, the Kings, well, first the Queen's representative,

then the King's representative has to be above politics of the day. I'm wondering if you now feel more liberated to speak your mind about politics, given that you are a former LG. No. And I'll tell you why. It's because the role of a vice regal, you can misstep so easily by an unfortunate word or conversation. that could do damage to the institution.

And I believe in the institution. I believe in our form of constitutional democracy so much that anything I ever said during my 10 years was really, I could always say, here's what I hear from the people of Ontario. So it was never Liz's agenda per se. Now you can say I have an agenda that is about democracy, that is about culture, science, the environment, all of those kinds of things.

But it would not be a political statement. It's just a statement of what is important if we are to maintain the kind of society we want. So if I were to ask you, who did you prefer to work with? Kathleen Wynne or Doug Ford, how would you answer that? I would say that they were both wonderful people to work with because they understood the roles we played. And they always, each of them, gave me, me and the office the most utmost of respect. That was just the way they handled it. They understood what the role of the Viceragel was.

And I'm delighted that both of them were interested. in hearing what I was hearing from people all over the province, and I enjoyed the company of both of them. That is not to say that I necessarily agreed with the views they ended up taking, but that wasn't my job. I could provide information about what I was hearing, I could ask questions about why they did such and such. But the reality is that it was their job then to take whatever information they had, whatever input they had, and to do the best they could with it. No, for sure, they're the deciders. But, and I think probably a less well-known aspect of the job description of the lieutenant governor

is that it is his or her job to not just advise, but warn, warn the premier of the day that what they're doing may have consequences of X, Y, and Z. And I wonder if you could give us an example of something that you might have warned one of the premiers that you worked with about something that you heard from others, you're on the wrong track with this one, buddy. And maybe they changed their mind. Well, I would not break that confidence. Oh, you're no fun.

But I can say that I would say, Premier, could you just explain to me why you did that? So it wasn't, it wasn't warning. It was essentially saying it was trying to understand. And I'm sure the message was received. Okay, I'm going to push it one more time. And would there have been anything? You don't have to tell me who the Premier was. But is there one issue you can think of where they actually changed course because of a conversation with Lizzie Dowdwell?

I would think there were cases where they took on board. the fact that they needed to do perhaps a better job of communicating what it was they were really trying to do. Why is it an important tradition to follow that the conversations that you had with the Premier of the Day can't end up in your memoir someday? Because I'm not yet writing a book of any kind. Well, you know what I mean, though. You don't kiss and tell. exactly no it's you know people do that

sometimes because they have a record that they want to set straight I just am very conscious of the damage even in retrospect

that can be done to the institution and I think we are fortunate in Canada with our form of constitutional democracy

I think our relationship with the crown is an important one and I think think through the whole vice regal family, we have an opportunity to really bring the views of citizens in a way that is perhaps not as public as it might be, but yet may be influential.

Well, to that end, let me ask you about your relationship with indigenous people in this province and country, because I've often heard it said that many in the indigenous world, have no faith or trust in politicians, but they do in the Crown, because their original treaties are with the Crown and not with any particular politicians. Did you see that in your daily dealings? I saw that on day one.

I was up in one of the furthest north indigenous communities with a member of the royal family and indeed a premier and a group of women, actually. And we were taken to a sacred place where the treaties were signed in that community.

And there was no doubt in my mind at all that the impact of having not only the Queen's representative, but more importantly, a member of the royal family herself, there was extremely important to that community. And then I look at the work that we've done, particularly with Gima Stacey LaFourne in, and Massey College, in creating one of the chapels royal.

You know, they're chapels royal throughout the United Kingdom, but the only other country that has them as a gift, if you like, of Her Majesty, the Queen at the time, is in Canada, and all three of them are in Ontario. And one of them actually was so important when it was created at Massey College. One of the most important moments for me was hosting the entire vice regal family, including the Governor General, at Massey College. and having

them sit in conference with the head of the AFN at the time and in the chapel and it was a council around the fire bringing tobacco to that sacred fire by every member of the vice regal family for the first time

altogether and that's a wonderful moment it's actually noted with a heritage plaque because it was a moment of such importance. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear the former principal of Massey College, my pal John Fraser, might have had something to do with that, did he? Well, he did initially, but this was with Hugh Siegel who carried it over the line. The late grade.

Very good. Here's a question I don't think I've ever asked you before. Does the lieutenant governor vote at election time? There's nothing that stops the lieutenant governor. from voting. And that's one of the questions that I got asked all the time by interns and pages. I chose not to because I did not want to be perceived to be in any way partisan in the job. But I urged all of them to make sure that they voted. And the first possibility to vote after I left the position, I did indeed line up with everyone else and cast my vote.

And which election was that? That's a good question. It was a federal or provincial? Federal. Yeah. So it was the federal election last year, the one Carney, Pahliav Singh? I have voted every time since every time there's been a chance to vote and I will in the up-and-coming by-election. You will in the up and coming because you live in University of Rosedale.

Yeah. Okay. Who are you going to vote for? I'm not telling you. Well, you can't blame me for trying. You always try. Well, you know, you've got to keep trying, right? Can I just, before you cut me off with more questions, can I just say the most important thing about today's conversation is that I get to issue this invitation.

and the invitation is to people to nominate someone for this. I was just going to get that. Okay, I'm going to set you up for this because we actually haven't said the name of the prize yet. It is called the Elizabeth Dowdwell Award for Advancing Democracy Through Education. And you, you know, every teacher in the province of Ontario is eligible to be nominated by somebody. So why don't you just tell us how it's going to work? Well, exactly. And let me tell you that it's open to any teacher.

not just those who teach a specific class in civics. So it could be, for example, a history teacher. It could be an environment teacher. It's someone who can demonstrate that they have made a real impact on the lives of their students by teaching them what citizenship is all about, what civics is about, and by actually engaging them in that process. It's not just about textbook knowledge. As I said, it's about behavior.

It's about how you instill that respect, that genuine respect and for fairness and the way in which you treat people because that's what lasts a lifetime. And the knowledge will always change along the way. So that inherent curiosity, but that real empowering of young people to be engaged in the world in which they live, starting with their own communities, maybe in their own school. So where people need to go is to the website, Government of Ontario website, Honors and Awards Portal. and there you'll find out all about the prize.

You'll find out the date, which is the end of May at the latest. That's the deadline. That's the deadline for nomination. And anyone can nominate. Students can nominate. I would love it if students put together a video and said, here's why our teacher is so important. Here's what she's taught us.

And that's one way. They will tell you what, what you need to do. But I'm hoping that of all the awards that honors and awards administers, that this one will really bring out some creativity in who gets nominated, why they get nominated. And the award actually is a monetary award. You'll find all that information on the website. And it's really about either continuing the education of the teacher involved. It may be a class that they want to take to further their knowledge, or it may be their decision to use the funds in such a way that they can work with their

students to do something that they perhaps didn't have a chance to do. And this, like the Order of Ontario, is a permanent award that will exist forthwith forever. Indeed. Terrific. Terrific. Yes. And as I say, I'm very grateful to the government for recognizing that this is an area of endeavor that's worthy of honoring in this way. And I guess in the interest of full disclosure, we should say here, you don't actually get to pick the winning teacher, do you? I don't get, other than to say, as I'm doing this morning, how important this is, I have nothing to do with the,

there is a separate committee that is set up with a range of impressive people who come from various walks of life. And they are the ones who make the judgment and it's administered, as I say, by the government of Ontario. I know at least one of the people on that jury. You do. And I think you're talking to them right now. Indeed.

Indeed. Yes. Yeah. You've got a few people there who really quite admire and respect the lieutenant governor and what she tried to do during her time in office and what she will continue to do now that she is in her post-vice regal life. So, Your Honor, best of luck with the prize,

and we can't wait to get, what's the expression, I guess deliberating over who the first recipient of the prize in your name is going to be, and we thank you for coming on the Paken podcast to talk all about it. Always delighted to have conversation with you. Look forward to many more. And the next time I see you in person, I'm going to ask you again who you voted for on the by-election. I know you will.

and you know I will. And with that, thanks so much everybody for watching. If you'd like to join our Patreon community, we're at patreon.com forward slash the Paken podcast. All of these interviews and episodes are archived at stevepaken.com. And as always, peace and love. Until next time.