The Paikin Podcast - Ukraine Special with Chrystia Freeland: How Much Longer Can This War Go On?

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

As the Ukraine War nears its fourth anniversary, we devote a special edition of The Paikin Podcast to understand where things stand today, the toll four years of war has had on the Ukrainian people, and how much longer it can go on. The episode features a variety of different voices and interviews, including:- Former MP Chrystia Freeland- Deputy Minister of Social Policy of Ukraine, Dariia Marchak - Roman Shimonov from Roshel Smart Armoured Vehicles- Anastasiia Bilchenko from Peaceful Heaven- Yevhen Tryshyn from Nova Global - Lesya Granger from Myrna AidSupport us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcastFollow The Paikin Podcast: YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznC...X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.socialEmail us at: [e-mail]

Hi, everybody. Steve Paken here. With the fourth anniversary of Russia's war in Ukraine coming up later this month, we thought we devote a special episode of the Paken podcast to a conference that was recently held in Toronto, focusing on the Ukrainian side of things. I attended the conference and did short interviews with several people attending as well, each of whom had a different connection to this illegal and immoral war that Russia launched on February 24, 2022. In this episode, we will hear from Leshya Granger from Mirya Aid, Evan Trishen from Nova Global, Daria Marchak, Ukraine's deputy minister for the economy and agriculture, Anastasia Bilchenko from a group called Peaceful Heaven, and Roman Shimonov from Rochelle Smart Armored Vehicles. And we'll wrap up with a brief speech given by former Canadian Member of Parliament, Christian Freeland, who rushed in from Toronto Pearson Airport to attend the conference, having just spent several days in Ukraine.

Freeland, of course, was both a special envoy to Ukraine for Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney and an advisor to Ukraine's president Volodomir Zelensky. A special edition on this fourth anniversary of one of the world's worst ongoing wars. Coming right up on the Pagan podcast. Pai, you will be see our faces, not our

people, not our people. Testing one two. There we're good to go. Why don't

you introduce yourself and tell us what organization you represent. Great, thank you. My name is Lasha Granger. I represent

Maria 8. Maria 8 is a Canadian NGO. I'm the CEO and chair of Maria 8 and have been since 23,

although I've been volunteering there since its inception in early 2020. right after, just days after the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine. What work do you do? We do mainly demining.

This is explosive ordinance disposal, training and equipping of Ukrainians. Ukrainians in national agencies. So the military side, armed forces of Ukraine, and then the ones that help the military and work with the military. Some of them fall under the Ministry of Defense and others under Ministry of Interior, such as the National Police. For Ministry of Defense, it would be, for example, National Guard. And your job is to, I mean, this seems like an endless job, right? Getting the mines out of the ground in Ukraine? Yes, and so it's very important to train and equip and especially train to international standards and then the Ukrainian realities, so the Ukrainian standards and the

operational demining, which means that they are under threat, constantly under threat, both from above and from below. And so, yes, getting a core of thousands and thousands of deminers or explosive experts, improvised explosive experts to be able to handle all of this, first of all to protect civilians. Second of all, to help defend the country at this time by allowing the military to move around freely and safely where they need to near the front, for instance, and also infrastructure, the agricultural sector, as well as the industrial sector as recovery continues because demining, reconstruction, recovery, all of this is happening during the war, and it has to happened during the war because we don't know when it'll end, but people need to live and work

and carry on the best they can. I'm sorry for this macabre question, but how often does a deminer lose his or her life or a limb or something like that? Very often. Probably the average is once a week for the country, at least once a week. Of course, a lot of these aren't reported. They're very complicated. They could also be targeted by drones as they're doing their work, often the work is done at night when it's, you know, operational demining that's not specifically humanitarian, but even humanitarian deminers have been targeted, targeted with even, believe it or not, you know, missiles, which is hard to believe, like, why would anyone do that? And they were clearly working in civilian areas for civilian purposes. But this is why the training is so important.

So we don't do the training ourselves, but we organize it. We organize the fun. We organize everything that it takes to get people to the training and get them trained to standards, making sure that the programs are a very high quality, and that there are mentors, that there's psychosocial support, that there's everything they need in order to do their job, and then in order to gain these skills, these additional, a lot of it is professional development, because some of them are already sappers, others are not. But they all tell us, look, what you're doing literally saved my life last week and my team's life. And so they're able to come home to their families. Like your question mentioned, you know, safe, sound, you know, maybe the work is very

difficult and so psychologically they may not be as sound as they should be living in a peaceful society, but at least they come home with limb intact. What kind of person does this work? Because obviously you're signing up for just incredible danger when you do this work. Yes, it's true. It's very dangerous, but a lot of women actually go into this because they want to protect their communities. It's true that there are many women in the Army, but there are also more than average, global average amounts of women doing this work in Ukraine. We like to support the services because the national... state agencies and the deminers working there, first to encourage women to go into the services

and also to ensure that this core of deminers is built and that it serves the public, because really it's a public good at this point in Ukraine. It's the same as, you know, a lot of the public services that are typically offered in societies, and this is one that's really important. And so the kind of people that go into it, it really isn't for everybody. And actually, the training sometimes shows a person that, you know, I'd really like to do this job, but maybe there's something in mine action that I can do that isn't working with the explosives or diffusing the munition. Maybe I should be educating the population. Maybe I should be working with a manufacturer. And here is where veterans come in. It's really important that veterans be integrated into mine action.

and into this. Not all veterans, but the ones who have an interest and, I suppose, proclivity for this. And this is another area that we're developing in Ukraine. When's the last time you were in Ukraine? We were in Ukraine just a few weeks ago. We were there for approximately two weeks, with two other international conferences bookending our trip, so a month-long trip, approximately. But it was all about demining, all about, you know, supporting Ukraine and their very hard and difficult challenge of, you know, just fighting for their existence and their right to have a sovereign country.

And so, yes, we just returned from Ukraine recently. We go there several times a year in order to meet with partners, and it's always so hectic. The days are, you know, it's between six and seven meetings a day because there's just so much to do find out, you know, really understand what it is that they need and how that's evolving, you know, practically as we speak with them. And so it is a big challenge, but it's one that is very dynamic and the people there are so resilient. It's truly inspirational each time we go. I get that inspirational, but it's been four years. And I just wonder how much more you think

the country can take. It's really tough, but they really have no choice. And that's essentially what they tell us. They tell us, look, we're not going to live under occupation. We'll do everything we can to live the lives that we always wanted for our families. And it's true that a lot of people in Ukraine, if you look at the general population, they may not have had a chance to travel very much or come to Canada, for instance. But a lot did, and a lot of young people did. And so they really have heard both, they've seen the West, they've traveled and studied in the West,

but they've also heard the stories of their grandparents, of all the horrors of the 20th century, and there were so many. And they don't want any of that ever to happen again, which is why Ukraine is a very diverse country. And it always historically has been, as we know, and now that strong, civil and political society really holds people together and they just say never again really means never again no matter what that looks like and we're not going to tolerate it and yes they're tired yes you know we're working with them and they're and they're yawning and so are we along with them just from being exhausted but that's okay and and i think that you know we just have to help keep supporting and helping them

because i don't think they're going to be giving up as they shouldn't i'm not Thank you. Thanks very much. Testing 1-2. Great. If you would, introduce yourself and tell us what organization you're with. I'm Yvind Trishen. I work in Nova Post. This is the largest logistics operator in Ukraine, headquartered in Ukraine, but we operate in Canada as well from Toronto.

We're here for two years already, and we're happy to provide our services, logistics, and shipment services to Canadians and to Ukrainians. So tell me, how do you do what you do in the middle of a war? This is the very large company, the backbone of Ukrainian infrastructure. So you can imagine that if you need to supply something to the front line or in the country or to Ukrainians that left the country that live now in other countries like Canada or Poland or Germany. So everyone uses the services of Nova Post. This is a well-known brand. This is Love Mark in Ukraine.

And if you ask a Ukrainian if he or she knows about Nova Post, of course, everyone knows. And we try to provide the services at our best. Of course. Is it dangerous? Sometimes it's dangerous. And our facilities, our hubs and our branches, they are hit by Russian missiles very often. What we do, for example, we have found an innovative solution. You know, Ukraine is the country of innovations.

So we have the container-like branches. and if our location is hit, if our location is hit by the missile. So we put very, very soon just in a couple of hours, we put a container like a branch, and we operate from this branch. It can be plugged very easily to power, and starting from that, we can provide our services as usual. How many of your employees have been killed during the war? A lot.

But we try now, we have introduced some special requirements and we have some special shelters inside our hubs and inside our locations and show the casualties right now they are at a low level. But at the very beginning, it was really hard because we were not really prepared to this full-scale invasion. It was brutal. It was very fast. But we adopted, you know, like any business in Ukraine, we were able to adopt. And, well, now this is really much better. When's the last time you were in Ukraine? It was three years ago. From what you're hearing and from what you saw, how is the country holding up?

Country is holding up. Country tries to go ahead. I have my parents that are still in Ukraine in Kiev. And, yeah, this is hard. Every time when I hear about the power auto-church. when I hear that some residential building was hit. This is really hard, but life goes on. And people make so possible to maintain their lifestyle

and to help soldiers, to help the front, all businesses they are helping as well. So we just don't have other possibilities. We just need to help each other. Why have your parents decide? to stay in Ukraine instead of come to Canada with you? My father, he's into science for all his life, so he cannot leave his institution.

And my mother is together with my father. So that's why they decided to stay there. Are they nervous about living in Ukraine right now? They are not nervous anymore. You know, they pray to God. They have believers, and they really expect that. everything will be okay and I expect that everything will be okay was them and was the

country how much longer do you think Ukraine can hold out it would be better if the war ends as soon as possible but the end of the war it doesn't mean to throw to froze the war to froze the the battlefield because in this case just in a matter of several several years so the war will restart so the Russia will gather the gather its forces again and restart the same thing. So I believe that there should be good integration of Ukraine into, first of all, into Ukrainians, into European structures, into the European Union.

So Ukraine should be as closer as possible to the European Union. And it would be really good if Ukraine would be officially part of NATO. Because right now, officially it's not, but in reality this is the eastern flank of NATO, and it protects the whole organization, especially Eastern European countries. Like Poland, Poland is behind Ukraine, Romania is behind Ukraine.

You know, if Russia captured Ukraine, it would be just on the border with NATO. And I have some doubts that the Romanians or Polish people they would be able, you know, to sustain. Ukraine just protect this. It's a shield of NATO countries, especially it's eastern flank. De facto, Ukraine is already part of NATO.

European Union or Canada help Ukraine, and Ukraine protect them. So de facto, this is already part of NATO. But it would be really better if it would be officialized, and Ukraine will be really better integrated into the Western structures. Understood. Thank you for your time. Thanks very much. Okay.

Let me just start with a very simple question. How was Ukraine doing these days? The war goes on. The Russian full-scale invasion, unfortunately, goes on, and every single day we have air attacks on our civil population, energy, facility, business, but still as a country, we withstand, and our economy is growing. And that actually means that as a country,

We are doing the job together with our partners, right? Because the GDP growth is expected to be around 2.3% this year. That's better than Canada. How are you managing to do that? We have, of course, the rather low base, because we've been hit very hardly back in 2022. But still, we are managing to grow for the 30 year in row, 23, 2024, 25. and the trend is upcoming. And there is the major news for us and also for international community

because the Russian economy simultaneously is going downwards. Yes, it still has the prospects for some very moderate growth of less than 1% GDP in 2025, but in 26 already we are expecting at least stagnation or probably even recession for Russian economy. And that makes the effort of the sanctions all over the world provided by our partner governments for the Russian assets very efficient instrument. The second very important instrument to support the economic growth in Ukraine is, of course, our international partners' financial support. And how well are we doing at that?

The general amount of the support is very substantial. of course, unfortunately still we have additional amount because Russia pays for its, for the war efforts, around 120 billion US dollars per year. While Ukraine can spend around 60 billion US dollars per year from our budget, as we still need to finance additional spending. And that is why the additional support, for example, of budgets for support from European, American, partners, Canada, UK, is extremely important to help us to withstand that military aggression. But the thought very important support is also to provide gross instruments for Ukrainian

business because only having Ukrainian business which is resilient, sustainable, and can withstand all those attacks and also Russia economy vulnerabilities that we have due to the full-scale war helps us to get taxes and to increase the tax base in the war in the country which is in war. So every single effort from the international partners and national governments to support investments into Ukraine through any possible instruments like what is insurance, direct instruments, credit, expert credits, and other instruments are extremely important for us. and for our sustainability as a country. If the Canadian government could do one more thing for Ukraine that it is now not doing,

what would that be? I think that a lot of things could be done. For example, my sector of responsibility, which is very important for us, is to support privatization efforts, and through privatization, first to increase the budget revenues, and second, to ensure that we have more and more foreign investments coming into economy. So what Canadian government, for example, could do is to provide some financial instruments as financial vehicles to support Canadian business to come into Ukraine and to invest and explore investment opportunities.

For example, speaking about some privatization of chemical or critical raw material assets that we have in Ukraine and we need and we are looking for foreign investors. in this assets and Canadian government could support Canadian business coming to Ukraine and having the new asset developing it so it will be a purely win-win situation both Canada for Canadian business and Ukrainian economy. How well is Ukraine hanging in there? This is four years now. How are you doing? We do not have a choice. We need to withstand. We need to win. So it's the only job that we can do to go on.

Thank you for your time. Thank you. Anastajou, why don't you just start by introducing yourself and telling us what you do. Okay, my name is Anastasia Bilchenko. I'm partnership officer from Peaceful Heaven of Harkiv, and I am dealing with current partnership programs, new one and old one. And what does that work involve? My work involved to cooperate with partners like from international organizations, also to cooperate with our staff, the field offices as well because for now we have in our staff 362 people and it means

that I need to cooperate with all of them to coordinate also the work and to be aware about our field programs and activities in the Harkiv and in Sumi in the Dupro Oblast in Mikhailayev and in Herson. How dangerous is your work? I think when we are going to some like a hot spot near the border or to have some some trips, working trips to hotspots where we have our activities. I think it's pretty much dangerous because we have a lot of like, you know, drones in the sky. And it's also like it's dangerous for us to be like, you know, to have some, for example, to distribute something, some like kids or hygiene kits.

And we also need to be like, you know, aware about the city. in the sky in that moment. So, yeah. Have you had any of your people wounded or killed? No, we do not have such cases. But anyway, in some way, we have some dangerous situation. When, for example, our staff just going to the location and have some, for example, emergency group.

When, for example, it is the challenge. And after our group, just going to the location and have some shelter workings, shelter. activities and if it is also included some like a twice or third time of shellings and explosions and our group are already there it can be a dangerous that the explosions can be near all of the other stuff and it's the a little bit dangerous and maybe in one case or two case we had even such a situation have you been in that situation where you've seen bombs go off near you uh I have I have seen a lot of explosions after the working day.

Actually, when, for example, I just returned to my home and, okay, it's drones near the sky. It's Shahed drones. It's called Shahed drones. Also, when I just wake up in 1 a.m. after, like, you know, rockets, explosions. So, like, you know, we are used to leave in such circumstances, I think. so how much longer can this war go on i think maybe i don't know i have not do not even pretend how can be it is in the future i hope that it can be like you know ended tomorrow or the day after tomorrow or like anyway it can be one year or two years i think in the first um year of the

war in 2022 i thought that okay it can be like maybe maybe one month or two months, but after I realized that it's war that could be even five and more than five years, unfortunately. How old are you? 25. 25. So this war has already taken up a fifth of your life. Yes, yes.

It started from COVID, and after it started the war and all of my student life, like, you know, goes to nowhere. and I realized that five years of my life, it's like I used to live in such experience, like new one of, yeah. Are you hanging in there? I don't know. It's a complicated question. But I think every, for example,

every staff in our organization, we just want to help people in such and the same situation as we are. So, yeah, I think we are used to live in such circumstances, and unfortunately, it's our ongoing and day-to-day life. So, oh. Thank you for your time. Thank you, too. If you would, introduce yourself and tell us what you do.

My name is Roman Shimonov. I'm the CEO and founder of Rochelle Smart Armored Vehicles. We're a designer, a manufacturer of the senator, Emrop, that has been deployed to you. Ukraine. We have over 2,000 units deployed so far, more than any other company in the world. And most of the vehicles were donated by NATO allies, including Canada, United States, United Kingdom, and purchased directly by Ukraine. Where do you make them? All vehicles are made here in Canada.

We've just recently established our manufacturing plant in Ukraine. We're going to customize, improve, upgrade and test the vehicles that have been deployed and produce in Canada. How well do they work? They work more than well and it took us a while to make them work well because there was a huge learning curve in the last three years and obviously before the war we weren't aware about new challenges and threats like the drones and landmines and other things that as a Canadian manufacturer we don't see every day we don't have the same threats here and when we deployed our first eight vehicles to Ukraine we had the chance and privilege to get the feedbacks right away from the front line and to get vehicles and improve them on a constant basis.

It's not a process where you have it done and you have a perfect vehicle. It's an ongoing process. And every time when you address one thing, you discover a new thing that you need to address again. That's what makes us the most agile, the most rapid, the fastest company, not just to deploy vehicles, but to identify areas that can be improved and optimized and improve the servability. of the vehicles and today we offer one of the most, the safest vehicle in its category that can take up to 8 kilos of TNT from under the wheel and 20 kilos of TNT from 2 meters from the vehicle. So basically it makes the vehicle the safest in its category. What does the

vehicle do? So the vehicle is a multi-purpose vehicle and there are many different applications that the Ukrainian end users are using the vehicles for. The most common one is personal transportation, medical evacuation, ammunition transportation, counter U.S., and many other applications. The idea behind the senator is to be able to have a vehicle that doesn't require any training. It's basically based on a commercial chassis, but at the same time, it was militarized and allows to carry the payload and have the protection level as a vehicle that would cost about four or five times more. And with the new doctrine, with the new approaches and challenges like the drone, in most cases, it doesn't make sense to buy a multi-million dollar machine that can be taken down by a $300 drone exactly in the same way as a shelf item like the senator.

And this is what makes it very cost effective. And the most important thing is not the cost of the vehicle, but in-service support rate. Because most of the components like the engine, the transmission, the transfer case, and users can buy the cost. directly from Ford all over the world. They don't have the dependency on us. They can get it anywhere. And the cost to support the vehicle becomes a fraction compared to other vehicles that are custom made from ground up.

How much are they per vehicle, Roman? How much? The cost you mean? So the cost depends on the variation, but it starts from $400,000. And it can go all the way to $2 million when it has all of the features like the counter-dron systems and jamming and other unique and sensitive capabilities that save Ukrainians every day. And I think people understand what a Jeep looks like. If you were to compare it in size and function to a Jeep, what would you say? I would say this is how the vehicle looks. Oh my gosh,

I'm looking at a picture of it and it's, I guess it's, it looks like a pretty sophisticated Jeep, but something from the 22nd century. So it's a four by four multi-purpose nine ton mind-resistant vehicle that gives the operator the ability to escape and survive after the attack and safely move from point A to point B. And this is what you need during the wartime. You need to be able to move to transport, to plan and to have a device and machine, a vehicle that has the lowest downtime rate. And by doing that, by being able to build a vehicle that is fully customizable, and every single part can be removed and can be bolter on and can be customized and every part is readily available.

That's what makes it the most viable, the most cost-efficient solution. And that's the reason why Rochelle is keep getting orders from most of the Allies, not only for Ukraine, but for other countries as well. And being a Canadian company and having thousands of vehicles deployed to combat zones makes us really proud because we see it as a privilege to be able to be able to. to be a part of this historical missions. And Ukraine is not the only area where our vehicles are operated. There are many countries that we deploy to, like for example, Haiti.

Haiti is a very hot zone. And the US government purchased many vehicles from Rochelle. And we deploy them to Haiti, where they're also taking part in very important missions. We have numerous and important clients and end users that use them, including NASA, by the way. Every launch of SpaceX and NASA, you'll always notice vehicles on the background that are made here by Rochelle, and we're extremely proud of it. You say made here.

What city are they made in? So we have several facilities. We have facilities in Canada. We have a production facility in the United States. We have now in Ukraine as well. We're working on setting up few production plants in Europe as we speak. But most of the vehicles currently are produced in Canada in Brampton. Rampton, Ontario.

Yes. This is kind of a, well, it's a chippy question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. War is good for your business. People want this war to end, but if the war ends, business goes down. How do you handle all of those issues? I have few comments on that. One, our business was doing fine before the war and we'll do fine after the war. But when you're in war, you need to be able to address the challenges that your enemy is creating.

And by being able to have the right equipment on the right time, we'll give you the ability to defend your values and your borders. And as Canadians, we also have a few challenges, especially on our north, where we need to protect our Arctic and our northern borders. And if we don't take the steps and we don't spend and we don't invest into our own domestic defense infrastructure, we might lose the chance to protect our borders. And that's exactly where companies like Rochelle take the initiative, create something that never existed before, invest hundreds of millions of dollars into the IP, into creating a platform that can be versatile, that can be cost-effective. And that's the reason how we sell and we export to our allies while historically Canada was buying vehicles from our allies.

And now Canada is selling to other countries. And it was done thanks to us, thanks to our team, because we didn't wait for anyone to give us grants or to give us. give us any support. We haven't received a penny from the government to develop what we have developed. And with that being said, we're paying taxes here in Canada, we create jobs, we export, we drive the economy, we enhance the defense capabilities of the country by creating a product that is a cost-effective and competitive, not just in Canada, but all over the world. And this is an achievement that needs to be recognized and need to be appreciated because at the end, the final beneficiary is the Canadian taxpayer.

Thank you, Roman. Thank you. As the special envoy for Ukraine's rebuild, and I know Christia has just recently returned from Ukraine straight from the airplane here. And Christian, I turn over the floor to you. Welcome and thank you. So I've been talking to a lot of people over the past week and a half. And I just wanted to talk briefly about three things.

I want to talk about Ukraine. I want to talk about what I saw and heard from Western Europe about Ukraine. And then I want to talk about the business opportunity. About Ukraine, I think it's important for those of us who are not there to recognize two things at the same time. One is people are really tired. It's almost four years of war and it's exhausting. I didn't meet a single person who was not touched directly by the war in some way. Who didn't have a husband, a brother, a fiancé, a son, a sister, fighting in the war,

or wounded in the war or killed in the war. This is the everyday reality of Ukrainians. And of course, they're really exhausted. At the same time, what I was really struck by was the extent to which people were resilient and determined. I think you've heard that in the panels that we've had already. It was just so impressive to me that people would have missile strikes in the night, go down to the bomb shelters.

And, you know, what they said to me is, you know, you go to the bomb shelters, but you wake up in the morning, you have a strong cup of coffee, and you go to work. And that is the attitude. I was only in Kyiv, but the stories that I heard from Kharkiv and Zaporizia were in many ways even more impressive. Those are frontline cities. And this year, just this year, they are building 19 underground schools in Kharkiv, 30 underground schools in Zaporizia. Think about what that says.

What that says is people, families are determined to stay and they're finding ways for their little children to go to school safely. To me, that is incredibly moving, and it says something about a determination to be there. A final thing I want to say about what was very striking for me about Ukraine is Ukrainians, the Ukrainians I spoke to were determined to win the war, but they were equally determined to win the peace. Ukrainians, yes, are fighting for their sovereignty, but they're also fighting for their vision of a transformed Ukraine. A Ukraine which is democratic. A Ukraine which is a rule of law country. A Ukraine which is able to enjoy the kind of widely shared prosperity that we sometimes take for granted here in Canada. And I know that at this conference, and this was the case in Kiev last week, there were, of course,

conversations about the corruption investigations. From my perspective, those investigations are part of this conviction that Ukrainians have, that they are fighting, they're fighting Russia and they're fighting to win, and they are also fighting for the kind of Ukraine they're going to build at home. Corruption revelations are always challenging. But from my perspective, it's really important for us to recognize that this is not, you know, it's not Steve Paykin's investigative reporting that has uncovered stuff. It's not an international financial institution, you know, like the World Bank that has gone in and said, oh my goodness. This is a Ukrainian institution working in Ukraine with the support of the people of Ukraine and of the Ukrainian parliament.

And that to me speaks of a healthy society determined to become healthier. So that's Ukraine. Second, just a few observations from conversations in Western Europe. I was very struck by the extent to which the Europeans who I spoke to recognize the stakes. There is a recognition that I had not seen previously of the very serious and ongoing threat that Vladimir Putin's revisionist Russia poses not only to Ukraine, but also to Europe and indeed to the entire rules-based international order. We've seen European countries not only say that, right? You know, there was Olaf Schultz's Zaitan Venda that the world has changed. We've seen

Chancellor Meritz talk about how we're not at war, but we're not at peace either. And we are seeing now historic investments in defense by the Europeans. And that is a measure of the seriousness with which they see this challenge. I would also say, you know, in this panel that we just heard from, I think speaks to something that I heard from the Europeans I spoke to, which is an increasing recognition of the resilience. and the strength of Ukraine. A recognition that Ukraine should be supported not only because it's the good thing to do and the right thing to do, which it is, but that Ukraine should be supported because a strong Ukraine can be a great ally for us all. A real recognition, we heard about

the defense sector, you know, an increasing recognition that Ukraine can be the arsenal for Europe and that Ukraine can be the shield for Europe. And I think both of those things are true, and it's good to hear that recognized. We are going to, Pavlov spoke about the assets of the Russian Central Bank. And all the Canadians here, we should be proud of the leading role our country has played on what I think is emerging as sort of the key issue at the moment. Canada was the first country to move on saying Russian assets broadly have to be frozen, and we need to be ready to confiscate those assets.

And we worked hard at the G7 to move on making available some of those assets of the Russian Central Bank to Ukraine. There are a lot of conversations going on in Europe right now. there's going to be a decisive meeting in the middle of December. And that is going to be a real moment for Europe to show its willingness to be a real player and to be really there for Ukraine. Let's hope that Ukraine gets the support it needs to keep on being that shield and that arsenal. The final thing I want to talk about,

is the economic and business opportunity. I began my professional life as a journalist working in Ukraine, Russia, and what was still the Soviet Union. I watched and reported on the collapse of the Soviet Union. And I remember what a world-changing moment that was. It was transformative politically. but it was also this economic opportunity. And it was broadly understood that this was a moment of economic transformation,

comparable maybe only to the Marshall Plan and Europe after the Second World War. Ukraine did some things with that opportunity. I think we shouldn't underestimate how hard it was simply to establish a sovereign state. but there were a lot of things that Ukraine didn't do. There are a lot of things in that transition that are not done. I think that we need to be thinking about Ukraine as right now being on the brink of, maybe even beginning to truly take advantage of that 1991 opportunity. I think this is a transformational moment for Ukraine.

The society is already transformed. People, even in time of war, are transforming the economy. And as we move from fighting the war to fighting the peace, I think we really have to see this as an opportunity for an economic renaissance. of the same scale and significance and depth that we saw after 1991 in parts of the world. You know, I crossed the border from Ukraine to Poland and you see, you can see how deep a transformation is possible. That is a transformation which is within Ukraine's grasp. And I really am so impressed by the resilience of Ukrainians, by the entrepreneurial approach that

Ukrainians are taking to fighting this war, by just how smart and how competent they are. And they are doing that while fighting. Just imagine how incredible that economic renaissance can be when all of that energy that that we have heard about here is unleashed and is directed to the rebuilding of Ukraine. And I'm not even sure, Zen, I'm not even sure rebuilding is exactly the right word. Because I don't think, you know, Ukraine

needs to rebuild exactly what was there before the war. I think this is an opportunity for the transformation of Ukraine. And I think that is very exciting. I think that we know Ukrainian, can do it. We know that they are doing the hard work to transform their society and their political economy to have a secure foundation for that transformation. And we in Canada absolutely are European partners recognize not only how important it is for Ukraine to succeed on the military battlefield, but how important and valuable it will be for Europe, for the democratic world, for Ukraine to

become a prosperous Western democracy securing that eastern flank. Really, for the first time in Ukraine's history, I think that is absolutely achievable. And I think we should also recognize, you know, there is sometimes an advantage to starting from behind. And in business, in the economy, it can give a business, a community, a country, an opportunity to leapfrog and to use technologies to use systems that are at the cutting edge. We see that in Ukraine already with something like Gia. The Ukrainian government has achieved a level of digitization, which other countries, maybe including our own, can only aspire to. It's sometimes easier to build when you don't have legacy systems.

And I think that is a final reason that this really is a moment of transformation for Ukraine. So to conclude, I just want to say, thank you very much, Yaquiu Duzha, Zenon absolutely insisted that I come back from Europe a day earlier than I had intended because this is such an important meeting and I'm glad to have done so. If you leave with one thought, I would ask us all to leave here, certainly committed to the idea that Ukraine needs to fight on the military battlefield, but also committed to the idea that Ukraine needs to fight and is fighting on the economic battlefield, and that that is a battlefield that is not just about rebuilding, but is about

transforming, is about a true renaissance, is about Ukraine being able to fully take advantage of those opportunities that first opened up in 1991. And the Ukraine that is already, is already at an incredibly difficult time, accomplishing that transformation is a country that, yeah, for sure, you know, we need to help Ukraine. We should. It's in our own interests. But it is a country that will be a fantastic, partner for us all, a fantastic investment for the businesses that have the courage to invest now, a fantastic shield, a fantastic arsenal, a fantastic business opportunity. My friend, a great Canadian, Jean Crequen, had demonstrated Canadian courage and resilience

by traveling to Ukraine in September. And he won the hearts of Ukrainians by saying, keep fighting. And also his wonderful slogan, Vive le Canada. So I'll say, Vive le Canada, Vive L Ukraine.

Slav, Ukrainie, Slav, Kanagi. Thank you very.