The Paikin Podcast - Why Longshoreman Rob Ashton Wants the NDP to Return to Its Roots

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

Rob Ashton joins Steve to discuss his NDP leadership bid, why he thinks the NDP needs to return to its working-class roots, if the Conservative Party outflanked them, and what he offers as an NDP leader that the other candidates do not. They then discuss housing, the level of unionization in Canada, Carney’s speech in Davos, Canada’s foreign policy approach in Ukraine and the Middle East, and Ashton’s favourite PM in Canadian history. Support us: patreon.com/thepaikinpodcastYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePaikinPodcastSPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/1OhwznC...X: x.com/ThePaikinPodINSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thepaikinpodcastBLUESKY: bsky.app/profile/thepaikinpodcast.bsky.socialEmail us at: [e-mail]

Hi, everybody. Steve Paken here, as part of our continuing coverage of the federal NDP leadership race, we're going to speak today with a candidate. A lot of folks are talking about, even though he's never run for political office before. And yet, a lot of smart people around politics are saying he's the one to watch. Rob Ashton, one-on-one, coming up on the Paken podcast. Delighted to welcome from Vancouver, British Columbia. Rob Ashton, who's running for the NDP leadership federally. He's also national president of the international longshore workers union. And we've never met before, Rob.

So let me just start by saying it's great to meet you. How you doing? I'm doing pretty good. Nice to meet you as well, Stephen. Although I hear you've had the week from hell. What's been going on? Oh, just busy. I come in because I still work.

I'm still the national president of my union. And so we've had arbitrations and we've had a ton of stuff that we have to get sorted out here back in the office. And so it's been a good thing. I'm used to pull in like 20-hour shifts at the bargaining table because it's been about 16, 17-hour days here in the office. But, you know, it's what I live for. Well, this will be a lot easier than any of those sessions. I think I can commit to that. I hope so.

I'm going to ask you the same question that I asked both Avi and Heather when I interviewed them. And that is not necessarily why do you want to run for the NDP leadership, but why would anyone at this moment in history want to run for the federal NDP leadership? Let's start there. The new Democratic Party of Canada means something more than just being a political party. It's someplace where everybody has a home. It's a party that defends workers' rights. It's the party that defends Canadians, period, against the ruling class. And this is why I want to run for the leader of the federal party.

This is why anybody would want to run for the leader of the federal party because it's special. It's built by rank and file Canadians for rank and file Canadians. And we speak their voices. Well, you say that, but in the last federal election, I don't have to tell you that almost 94% of Canadians ignored the party. And they didn't feel there was anything special about it at all. Where do you think the party kind of lost the plot? We forgot how to talk to people. And we forgot how to listen to people.

And so, you know, in the last election or the last government that was sitting, the NDP got a lot of good things for this country, you know, just to name a few. And it was the pharmacare, the dental, anti-scab legislation. These are all positive things that came from the last government. And those are NDP ideals. But we forgot how to communicate with the public. And so the liberals was able to steal our lunch from that. And so people bought into this narrative that the NDP was propping up the liberal government.

And it wasn't about propping up the liberal government. It was about getting good things for Canadians. And that's how Medicare came into this country. It was through a minority government brought through by the workers parties. And so that was just the same old, same world of that. But the difference is we forgot how to talk to people. And yet when it came time for people to render their judgment on the work of that parliament, And apparently they said, well, I guess, you know, you liberals, we want you back and you

new Democrats were kind of punishing you. Well, what happened was people bought into the lie that Pierre Paulyev was a worker. You know, he cosplays pretty good as a worker. But I don't think he's ever really drank a cup of coffee in a lunchroom before on coffee break. And so people bought into that. They bought into his narratives and they bought into his campaign slogans, which at the end of the day mean nothing.

And so a lot of people voted for the conservative party. And the rest of the people voted for, I don't think they voted for the liberal party. I think they voted for the aura of Mark Carney. That's what they voted for. And that's what they got was an aura, a banker. And because they thought a banker was going to be able to defend against Donald Trump and to keep Pierre Polievo. But what we've been seeing since Carney has been in office is somebody that continuously works for the ruling class and continues to work forward. employers and not for working Canadians or Canadians in general.

Well, we'll come back to more on that later. Let me find out what you believe you bring to the, because you are, you're different cat in politics. Let's put it that way. What do you think you bring to the race that the other major candidates don't? Well, it's quite simple. I bring a working class history. I've been a longshoreman for 32 years now, a dock worker. I've been the national president for the National Longshore Warehouse Unit Canada for the last 10 years, vice president of the union for four years before that. So I bring ground knowledge. I bring a leadership style that nobody else has.

I have the ability. I've been leading our union, which is a rank and file union, so a bottom-up leadership. So the membership tells me what to do, and then I enact that. And that's the type of leadership I'm going to be bringing. to the NDP is more power, more strength to the members of the party to Canadians at the end of the day. And I'm the only candidate that has that record, that has that leadership style and that record of leadership out of all of us. And that's what I'm going to be bringing to the, that's what I bring to the race. And that's what I'm going to be bringing to the leadership when I went on March 29.

I find it interesting that you say in your biography that you are not a politician. That comes prove right, I mean, right near the top of your bio. And I guess I'm wondering why you think it's an asset not to be that which you are trying to become. So I'm not a politician. Well, I'm not your, I'm a union politician, like 100%. Like, I'm not going to lie here and BS you. But I'm a worker. And I'm going to become a workers politician. I swear, like, that's the biggest, complaint my team's got me as I swear too much. And so I'm not going to BS people. I'm going to tell you like it is, whether you want to hear it or not.

If I don't have an answer for you, I'm going to tell you. I don't have an answer for you. I'll get you one, though, and we'll figure it out. I guess the other thing is, you know, like, I'm fighting to be the voice of the working class in this country. and I think what happens or I know what happens is people get into like if you look at the conservatives and the liberals they talk a lot about being the voice of workers the voice of your everyday Canadian but they aren't they go in there and they do the bidding of their corporate landlords well I'm going to push back a little bit on that only in as I mean for the purposes of this you know most interesting discussion only in as much as to say you know the certainly the Conservative Party of Canada got more ordinary workers voting for them in the last election that maybe in 40 years. Right.

And they certainly have, you know, some private sector unions behind them as well. And Pierre Paulyev, while it's true, I'm not sure he's ever sort of worked on a shop floor. You know, I'm sure he has had a cup of coffee with workers on factory floors from time to time. And for whatever reason, there are more workers in this country today that see themselves more in the conservative. conservative party than they do in the new Democratic Party. Why is that? Because like I said earlier, we forgot how to talk to people. You know, Pierre's pretty slick. I'll give them that. When you can convince people that you're a worker after 20 years of sitting in the House of Commons, that's pretty slick. I don't think he convinces them that he is a worker, but he says he hears their,

he wants to represent them and he hears their voice. He hears their concerns and their complaints. Yeah, but he doesn't. And the conservative party accounted. I don't think has ever heard the complaints of the concerns of workers. Under Stephen Harper, they attacked unions and they attacked workers left, right and center. And Pierre was sitting right there alongside of them, clapping his hands and praising them to do that. Under the Harper government, that government destroyed the Canadian wheatboard, which was actually there to protect Canadian farmers. But they destroyed it and sold it off to foreign entities. So there's nothing about the conservative party that actually protects workers.

They protect their corporate interests and they pretend to protect workers. Let me find out a little bit more about what kind of a new Democrat you are because, of course, somebody from rural Canada who perhaps is a blue-collar worker is a bit of a different kind of new Democrat than, say, maybe an environmentalist from downtown Toronto. So again, I want to find out where you are on that continuum. that there have been and there are, I think, a lot of new Democratic Party members who are very focused on identity politics, that kind of thing. Are you one of them? So I've been, the way I've been raised in my union as a leader is we live by our 10 guiding principles in the ILW, which was written in 1953. And guiding principle number three is the one that I live by. And that's division is the weapon of the boss.

and we will not be divided by sex, creed, religion, sexual orientation, gender, just to name a few of them. And so I lead my union and I'm going to lead our party the same way where a rising tide lifts all ships. And so I'm working on behalf of Canadians and I'm working on behalf of the working class of this country. And when I say working class, just so you know, because some people think I'm just talking about workers, But when I talk about working class, I'm talking about people that do not own the means of production unless it's worker own production. So that includes small businesses. That includes indigenous communities. That includes people that are on disability payments or people that can't find a job for whatever reason.

Working class is everybody, everybody in this entire country. Well, a bank president's an employee. Do you include him on that list or her? You know what? if they have the same values as us, maybe. Just maybe. Okay. I don't have to tell you that Avi Lewis has been in and around politics for practically his whole life.

You know, his dad was Ontario NDP leader. His grandfather was the federal NDP leader. This is back in the 1970s. He's done a lot of good journalism over the years. Heather McPherson is an elected member of parliament. She wins her seat by big numbers. And they, it seems to me, are your two chief competitors here. what makes you think with kind of no elective experience at the federal level at all,

or no, you know, particularly long history with the party in the way that Avi Lewis has, what makes you think you can compete with them? Because I bring something new. I bring the ability to unite people. So my union is 12 autonomous locals, autonomous from each other, and autonomous from ILW Canada. and I've been able to, for the last 10 years, work with that and bring us all along together and keep us together. And that's, I'm the only one in this race that actually has that experience.

If you look at my executive board, it's around 30 people in our union, 30 A type personality, 30 different opinion. And we've been successful for the last 10 years to move ILDB Canada's a judge. agenda together. And I can do that. I'm the only one in this race with that experience to do that. And that's what I'm bringing to this race. And that's what I'm going to bring to the party when I get elected on March 29. Don't take this the wrong way. But you're not quite as what sort of I'm looking for here. Polished as the other two leading candidates are. Do you think that's a problem? I hope I never get polished. You know, Pope Popeye always said, I am what I am. And so I am what I am. You love me, you hate me, you kind of like me once in a while. But what I am is somebody

that's going to fight for Canadians, that's going to fight for a better future for all of us, because that's what we deserve. And that's what a government's supposed to do is fight for all of us. Let's get into some issues here, Rob. And I want to start with housing, because I know that's obviously a huge part of what you're interested in and bringing some new ideas forward on that. There are governments of all stripes in this country that have tried to make a dent in the housing crisis and, you know, to a greater or lesser extent, they either are or are not. What would you like to see happen on housing? So we have to think of it differently. So when we look at the way it's being done now, it's corporate developers that get handed the keys and say, go build something.

But that's not going to solve the housing crisis. I've got a 21-year-old daughter and a 25-year-old daughter, but I'm going to pick on Madison for a second. Is she the 21-year-old? She's the 21-year-old. And so she lives at home with me. But she said to me at the start of this race, she's like, Dad, like, I'm never going to be able to move out.

Like, how are you going to fix that? How are you going to be able? What are you going to do for me and people my age? And the simple answer is when we get into, when I get elected, what we're going to be pushing is we're going to be pushing the federal government to create. They used to build homes after the wars incredibly, like old wartime builds. And that's what we have to get back to, publicly owned homes in co-op style builds so that people can actually afford to live in homes. Because Canadians shouldn't have to work two and three jobs just to maybe be able to live a comfortable life. A lot of people in this country, unfortunately, who do work even multiple jobs are homeless.

And so we want to build homes for people and not for profit. And housing corporate empires that are out there. We need to, when we build these homes, they're going to be built with Canadian materials by Canadian workers with a public sector. builder. Rent control. We're going to be looking at trying to work with provinces and municipalities and to rent evictions. Because at the end of the day, housing is a right, not a privilege.

And right now, the ruling class governments that get elected, not only federally, but also provincially and territorially, act like housing is a privilege. And it's not. When Madison said to you, Dad, I don't think I'm ever going to be able to move out and get a place of my own. How did you respond? It hurt. It was it was it was kind of crushing to be honestly to you because like when I moved out of my house when I was a kid I could move out and afford to move out and live a decent, a comfortable life. But I told her. I said, look, I'm going to do everything in my power to fight for you and to fight for your friend because

it's the responsibility of the generation that is now to leave our country and our world a better place for the generation that's coming after. And I take that seriously. Let's talk workers' rights. You would like to require workers having seats on corporate boards to ensure that frontline workers have real influence over the decisions that impact their jobs and pay. I pulled that right off your website. How would you like to do that? Well, it's simply, there's European countries that do it now and it works quite well. And so if we put workers on corporate boards, we have influence in that corporation.

And we can talk to people about what it's actually like, what needs to be done to make that corporation better. Because when people sit on corporate boards way up in their ivory towers, they don't exactly know what's happening on the ground level. They don't know the nuances of the corporation or the job that could actually help grow the business. And it's workers that know how to make businesses, their business is better that they work at. And that's one of the reasons why we want to put workers on corporate boards. And also to guide them, guide them in making environmentally sound decisions, guide them in making proper decisions on their social impact. and guide them when it comes to negotiations with the unions that represent their workers if it's a unionized environment and it works.

So is that to say that you would pass a law or you would want a law passed requiring a certain percentage of board seats to be held for workers? Yeah. Our union's been fighting for the last for years to get worker representation on port authorities across this country. And we've been getting nothing but pushback by both liberals and conservatives. The only party out there that's actually helped us try to achieve these is the federal NDP. And we're going to continue to fight that because workers deserve to be in positions of power.

I want to ask you about another one of your policy planks, and that is a job for everyone who wants one. And you say, again, here, if you're ready to work, there will be a place for you, building homes, caring for others, restoring the environment, or strengthening our communities. You bet. So tell us how that would work. So we're going to be looking at Canadian jobs and Canadian industries. And so I go back to shipbuilding. Like if you look at what the Halifax, NDP provincial government did in 2011, working with the federal government at the time and the municipal government at the time and Irving Shipyards,

they were able to get the basket of money. I can't remember how much it was, but I'm sure it was a lot. And they tied that money, and they tied the shipping contracts with Irving to jobs. So if they produced jobs, then the money kept flowing type of thing. Irving Shipyard went from 300 jobs approximately in 2011, and I was just there not too long ago, to around 3,000 direct jobs at the site. And so now, plus the indirect jobs, and I think if I remember correctly, that number was around 10,000. And so if we did that in every province that builds vessels,

and we're talking military vessels, we're talking about ferries or vessels that sail in our Great Lakes or tugboats, imagine the jobs, the construction jobs that expand our current facilities, the jobs that we create for university students coming out of school into the industries that we haven't had to fill positions for in a long time, the job growth is exponential in this industry. but even building houses. We're going to put more trades people.

We're going to be putting people to work back in mills, in steel mills. And the positive are just huge. And when you look at the care economy, the care economy in this country is and should be one of the fastest growing sectors in our country. We need to be building hospitals, schools for people to go through. Respiratory therapists, doctors, nurses, care aides. because this is what a government has to do and should do. The infrastructure programs for roads and bridges,

we should be building roads and bridges all through this country, reaching up into Nunavut and wherever else. I presume this would require a level of public spending, though, that we have probably never seen outside of COVID-19 times. Can we afford this? You bet we can. And so how do we afford that? You know, we give a lot of money to oil company.

We can take that away and put it into infrastructure building, creating more jobs, a different type of job in this country. Building that Green West energy grid that we've been talking about, whether it's hydro power, wind power, solar power, or nuclear power, putting people to work, looking at, at taxing the rich and taxing the wealth creators. There is so many options for us to move money around and to invest it properly and invested in people and not corporations that are just going to run away and give their CEOs

another $100 million a year or whatever the ridiculous amount of money that these people get paid. Do you believe, though, that there is a connection between tax policy and corporations being either able or prepared to create jobs and do that. things. Look, we have we have a lot of natural resources in this country that everybody wants to touch and everybody wants to have their fair share of. And so you come to do work in this country, you need to be taxed fairly, just like the workers of this country has to be taxed fairly. My entire adult life, and even when I was a high teenager, I paid income tax just like you, just like everybody else

out there. Right? So what we have to do is we have to create a taxation system that taxes the ultra wealthy, taxes their wealth income creators. And that way it kind of levels out the playing field so that we're not always carrying that bag. And that's been the problem with this country so far is that the working class in this country is always left carrying the bag and the government wants more from us.

Well, how would we start taking more from? the ultra wealthy and their wealth creators. No, I hear what you're saying, but I'll just relay a conversation I had many years ago with, I think it was the president of GE Canada, who said, I need taxes low, not necessarily because I want to make more money, but because if GE has something they want to do,

they can take it to any number of different factories they have around the world. There's nothing that obliges them to do that work in Canada. And if I want to have a shot at getting those international projects and those bids, I got to be competitive. Now, do you dispute that logic? There is, if a corporation wants to move, they're going to move.

No matter how much money that we give them, they're going to move. Look at the automotive industry in Ontario. We've given them billions of dollars over the years, and they up and leave. So what's the difference? Like, I don't see the difference, whether we give them tax breaks

and the U.S. administration picks up the phone and says, hey, you have to come here or we're going to shut you down, they're going to leave. It doesn't matter how much money we give them or how much money we don't get from them. But somebody will always come in their place. Sure. I want to ask you about unions because I think at the moment

we have about 77% of public sector workers who are unionized in this country, which is a pretty big number, but only 15% is. in the private sector, which I presume you think is a pretty small number. So I want to focus on that one. What do you think you can do to get more people in the private sector unionized? Well, we've got to make it easier to unionize in this country.

So if you look at the Alberta NDP, when they took over government, they made it easier to unionization rate spiked. We did that in British Columbia here. When the BC NDP got into power, unionization rate spiked. because the way the laws are written right now is that if we want to go in and organize workers, the employer has the ability to mess around and threaten the workers, have private meetings with them as long as they don't get snitched on. They have an ability to control that.

And so if we actually went to a system where that was taken away from the employer, we went to a system where if workers wanted to be unionized, they could. So if you get 50% plus one of the numbers signed, because that's true democracy, then it's automatically certified. That's what's holding us back is the threats from employers. Look at Ubisoft in Halifax right now. And I can't. This is just me looking at this picture from a thousand miles away is in December last year,

the workers finally hear back from the board and says, you have the right to be union. Not very much longer after that. Ubisoft shuts down their Halifax operation. Amazon did the same thing in Quebec. The workers unionized, they shut down. These corporations that do that, that take their frustration out on workers just wanting to do what their charter says they're allowed to do,

these corporations should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Rob, let's talk some foreign policy. I'd like to start by asking you what you thought of Mark Carney's speech. the other day at Davos? Well, I tell you what, I was actually quite flattered with that speech because our prime minister stole one of my lines. And which one? Well, if you're sitting at the, if you're not sitting at the table, you're on the menu.

That's my line. So I really, really appreciated him echoing my words. So like, when a foreign power utilizes a map in North America and they put their flag over our country. That's aggressive. And that's something we have to take very seriously as a nation. We have to stand by our other allies like Denmark, Greenland, and everybody else out there. Because our world, as we know it, is changing incredibly fast.

And so Mark was right when he said that. Because some relations that we've relied on over the years, just aren't there anymore. And so we have to create new alliances. you know, we've said it, our party has said it many, many times and we'll continue to say it, our sovereignty as a nation isn't for sale to anybody. If they're taught, like the U.S. right now is talking about taking Greenland. We have to be carried, very wide awake about that fact. And we have to do things to protect ourselves.

You know, we have to invest in our economy. We have to make sure that our jobs are there. We can't outsource our defense. we have to make sure that our sovereignty is guaranteed. And so how do we do that? We have to invest in our strength. We have to invest in Canadian wages. We have to real job protections in our country and economic security.

We have to have the means to build up and to support our military and give them the proper tools that they need to to defend our country. We have to invest in our military because they're workers too. They're a part of the working class. Our military people, the support staff, and our veterans are all a part of the working class. And I wouldn't send one of my members onto a work site with unsafe equipment. No, I wouldn't, when one of my members retires after 30 years of work, I wouldn't expect them to go home and live off of nothing. So like when our military personnel retire from the military, they need health protections.

they need a proper pension plan. And we have to, quite frankly, reduce our dependency on the United States. So we have to strengthen our ties with our allies and create more trade agreements with people, make it easier to buy a Canadian. These are the types of things that make us more sovereign. That strengthens our ability as a nation to continue on into the future. You've had the odd occasion in your career to sit across the table from people that you didn't necessarily. I'm going to ask you this question about Donald Trump.

If you had three minutes sitting across the table from him, what would you say to him? I don't think I'm allowed to sail loud on that. No, I'm kidding. So I would just tell them straight up. Canada's not for sale. We're going to go our own way. We'll work with you as long as you stop trying to push us around. If you don't want to work with us on a fair and equal table, then we'll find somebody else and we'll deal with them.

we will not let you push us around. And then when it comes to the Canadian, U.S., Mexico free trade agreement, if it's not a good deal for Canada, we don't need one. We lived a very long life without free trade agreements, and we can continue to do so. Let's go overseas. I want to ask you about Russia's war on Ukraine and whether you think Canada ought to be doing anything different related to that.

No, look, it's Canada's response. to support their allies and to support nations that get invaded by other countries. Because if heaven or forbid something like that ever happened to us, we would hope that other countries, our allies would come to our defense. So I think we still continue to work with the Ukrainian government. We continue to support them in their struggle against Russia and their aggression. Okay, what about the Middle East? Anything Canada should be doing differently there? In regards to Gaza, we have a lot of work to do as a nation.

The world has a lot of work to do. What's happening right now is horrific. It is a genocide what's happening to the Palestinian people. But you can't blame Israelis as a whole. Who you blame is Netanyahu's government. NetNash ministers that support this carnage. And what you have to do on the other side is you can't blame Palestinian people for something that Hamas does. Because when we start blaming whole societies, that's when we start pushing the rhetoric of hate.

That's when we start pushing Islamophobia or anti-Semitism. And we can't do that. we have to make sure that people understand that it's not the people of those countries. It's the leadership. I noted the other day there was online a sort of, well, four of the five leadership candidates for the NDP participated in what was billed as a debate. It really wasn't a debate. Everybody pretty much agreed on everything. But it was about the future of Palestine and the region.

Yep. And you weren't part of that. How come? So like I said earlier, I'm the national president of my union. And a few months back, quite a few months ago, we had an arbitration set up with one of our employers, and I was the key witness. And so unfortunately, the two happened to be on the exact same day. And I had to be there for my union because I swear an oath to do my job. And that's my job.

And I had to represent my members. We did reach out to the groups that organized the event, tried to figure something out with them where I could like jump on midstream or something like that. And it just didn't work out. So unfortunately, I did miss the Palestinian debate, Palestine debate. But I still have a job to do. And I will continue to do that job. Understood. Let's find out a little bit more about you in as much as I, um,

I'm curious as to who your, I don't know if you have a hero or a favorite person in Canadian political history that you look up to. And if you do, who is it? I have a few. But in Canadian political history, I will have to say Jack late. Because? Simply because he was the one that got me. Like, I always voted NDP and I always, like, I donated a couple bucks here. But Jack spoke to my heart.

Jack spoke about hope, love, compassion, that there's a better way to do things in this world. And he spoke to me. And I was like, yeah, this is our next prime minister. I love this guy. He had a wicked mustache. And I wanted to run through a wall every time I heard him speak. and then

he passed away. Yeah. I remember in 1982 there was a new guy who got elected to Toronto City Council and I was a city hall reporter at the time and people said to me you got to watch this new guy from downtown

and of course Jack Layton and that was 1982 what was the first what year did you first meet him? Oh my God you're going to nail it down It was at a Canadian Labor Congress Convention. I can't remember the year.

Sorry. Was he a leader at the time? Yeah, he was leader of the party. Okay, so that was many years after that then. Yeah, and he come walking in, I'm going, man, this is going to be cool. Like, let's see what this, because the place was rocking. And he gets up there and he gives his speech. And I'm like, man, I kind of love you.

And I just got into it. And a lot of my people that were there were like, this guy knows what he's talking about. Jack is the real deal. And you could tell. Like, look what he did. We were one election away. And I truly believe this. One election away from forming government in this country.

Because he was inspiring because he didn't teach about, he didn't talk about hate and division. He talked about bringing us together. And actually, if you see a fellow Canadian that was down and out, like, it's okay to put out a hand to lift them up. And it was okay to say, hey, how are you doing? Now, I'm not surprised that you picked a new Democrat when I asked you who your favorite politician was, but I can't let you get away with that one alone. So I need somebody from another party that you have seen in the past and respected the work they've done.

Oh, my God. That's a tough question, to be honest with you. Does that have to be Canadian? Doesn't have to be. I like Bernie Sanders. I love Bernie Sanders. You're feeling the burn, are you? I actually met him at when he was trying to, when he was in the primaries to become

leader of the New Democrats, leader of the Democratic Party down to the States. And it was like, I was awestruck when I met him in person. Because I don't, this is going to sound, I'm going to sound like a jerk maybe. but I haven't seen a politician in any of the other parties that actually spoke to me because they never represented the values that I represent or that I want to see my leader represent and that's protecting workers, protecting Canadian and not trying to protect their corporate masters. Well, let me do a follow up on that because in as much as I think when I was younger,

populism almost always was a left-wing, well, it was much more a left-wing than a right-wing thing. And I'm talking about 50, 60 years ago. You know, the NDP was a populist movement. And I don't have to tell you the history of the party. You know the whole thing. But anyway. Almost the whole thing. I was only born in 1976.

Okay. Okay. But, you know, more recently, populism has become a much more right-wing phenomenon. And in fact, you know, it certainly. seems that a lot of the energy, if you want to look at Trump in the United States or for a while, Doug Ford in Ontario, or even, I know you don't want to hear it, but even Pierre Palliev federally, you know, a lot of the populist energy is on the right wing now in Canada. Wonder what you make of all that.

So they stole our playbook, the rotten buggers. So what we used to do is we used to go to school. We used to remember the term standing on your soapbox? Of course. Yeah, so we used to pack soapboxes around everywhere we go. There's a corner. Oh, look, that corner looks cool. I'm going to put my soapbox down. I'm going to stand up.

And I'm going to talk to people. We used to go to schools and talk to people in schools. We got away from that. And so what happened was there becomes a void in a vacuum. And so the conservatives move in or Republicans move in or mega people move in. And they start talking their language to university students, to college students, but we're not. And so they start to drag and pull those people forward. And so I'm stealing our playbook back and rewrite our playbook.

And we're going to get out there to colleges, universities, high schools, to talk about politics to high school students, not about voting NDP, but voting in general. And why it makes it so important to vote. Because we have to get back to talking to people. because that's what the conservatives have been doing. They've been talking to people more than we have. Since I didn't have much luck getting you to pick somebody from a different part of the political spectrum, I'm going to force you to do it on this occasion by asking a third follow-up question on this, which is to say, who's been your favorite prime minister in Canadian history?

Oh, man. And you can't pick a new Democrat for that because there hasn't been there. Oh, Jesus, because I don't go that far back, right? I'm six months shy of 50. It's a big year for you. It is July 21st, man. I don't know. This is a toughie.

There's got to be some prime minister in Canadian history that you thought. Yeah, he was all right. All right. Or she was all right. I'm going to say, the only reason I'm saying this, let me preface with this, is because this guy actually worked to bring more work to the ports in BC,

Jean-Cretchen. There was a lot of work done between his government and to get trade deals going, to actually start moving Canadian goods and receiving Canadian goods. If memory serves me correct, I wasn't too, too old when he was in office. So, like, I was older, but I wasn't. Well, he came in in 93 and you're born in 76, so you weren't even 20.

I was like 17, 18 years old. Yeah. But yeah, you know, like from what I can remember and from what I've been told, he did quite a bit of work. His government did to expand trade. See, now that wasn't so hard to say something nice about a liberal, was it? All right, let me take you then to the end of March. You're at the convention in Winnipeg. There you are on the convention floor.

And I'd like a prediction from you on how you think this whole thing's going to work out. I win. Which ballot? Oh, man. I'm going to say first ballot. You think you got a first ballot victory coming? your way? Listen, I'm the eternal optimist. I'm not conceded. I'm just an eternal optimist, my friend. I always think positive in life. I always look at positive results. I understand

that might not end out positively, but I always think positively. I always push for positivity. So, yeah. Are you running in the next federal election as a new Democrat for sure, regardless of who wins the leadership vote. Yes, I am. You are. I am. Where? So I live in Maple Ridge, and so to be somewhere with Larry Walker. You betcha. His field is just down from my house. You get me all excited about the expos again, sorry. But yeah, somewhere in the lower mainland. Somewhere in the lower mainland, British Columbia. Okay. Well, it's been a pleasure to meet you, to get to know you a little bit better and to hear some of your views on the issues. And as I say to all the candidates, good luck in Winnipeg at the end of March.

I appreciate that, Steve. Thank you very much for taking the time out of your day to host me here. It's been really good. It's been fun. Not at all. Thanks for joining us. And I'd simply say in closing that we invite people to check out our Patreon page. It's patreon.com slash the Paken podcast.

We got some goodies there. This show's always going to be free. But if people want to support what we're doing here, they can do that with a few bucks a month or whatever they like. And also, all of our previous shows are archived at stevepaken.com. So we invite you to check that out as well. Peace and love, everybody. See you next time.