The Paul Wells Show - Patty Hajdu on pain, healing and politics

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Minister of Indigenous Services Patty Hajdu joins Paul to talk about reconciliation, drug policy, and the road that led her from working with the most vulnerable members of society, to sitting in Trudeau's Cabinet. This episode was recorded live at the National Arts Centre. Subscribe to Paul's Substack for a premium version of this show: paulwells.substack.com

. Patty Hajdu says she knows it's hard to see what's happening in so many Canadian cities. All she's asking is that we not look away. Without compassion, we're lost in this space because it isn't somebody else's kids, it's all of our kids. It's our kids and our fathers and our mothers and our sisters and brothers. Today, live from the National Arts Centre in Ottawa, Patti Hajdu on pain, healing and politics. I'm Paul Wells, the Journalist Fellow-in-Residence at the University of Toronto's Monk School.

Welcome to The Paul Wells Show. A million years ago, when I was working at the National Post, one of my colleagues, Rebecca Eckler, said, you write these columns and they're very funny and you say so-and-so's a loser and so-and-so's screwing everything up and so-and-so's ridiculous. And you never say, I like this person. So I might as well admit that I like Patty Hajdu that's going to get me kicked out of the pundits guild for admitting it but uh we've had many conversations uh since she got elected in 2015 and in her many portfolios we talked when she health minister, we talked when she was status of women minister. We haven't yet really caught up in her current capacity as Minister of Indigenous Services. It's a complex portfolio. One of the things I did when I was ready for this conversation was to read your mandate letter. And that's one reason I was nearly late getting here, because it's a long mandate letter and it's uh involves responsibility for

some of the biggest challenges facing any minister in government and so it's uh it's one that i'm always happy to talk about patty hidey thanks for joining me well thanks paul for welcoming me and for saying nice things about me uh i've always enjoyed our conversations too because they are like conversations and i think you have an understanding that the creation policy is complex and that's a rare talent. So I appreciate it. So my first question is, who do you think you are? No.

That's an old joke for my campus paper. I think the second item on your mandate letter is that you are to work with other ministers to close the infrastructure gap by 2030. I'm going to bet that's not going to really work out. But that indicates the scale of the stuff that you're having to work on. Let's start there and then we'll fan out. That's the easy question. Thanks, Paul. We'll start with the easy stuff.

Yeah, I mean, this government has been ambitious about putting Indigenous rights and equity at the forefront of what we do. And what I would say is that without that ambition, I don't think we would have achieved in any small degree the kinds of things that we're starting to see happen in community today. You know, these goals are important to have because if you don't

put them on paper, then it's easy to ignore the infrastructure gap that exists. And yes, it's in the hundreds of billions of dollars. So you're right. These are big, big tasks. But when I go to community and I see the changes that are happening because of the investments that we've been making and the challenge that communities are having because infrastructure isn't just like put up a school and you're done uh you know i'll give you a good example shoal lake 40 that i was at this summer they now have a fully functioning water treatment plant that delivers clean water to communities they have a new school they have a road that they themselves have named freedom road

that connects them to Winnipeg. And I said when we were driving up, I said, hey, you know, I wonder if Diane Redsky is from here. I worked with her a bit in the space of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And you know what? She was. And I didn't have any idea that she would be there. She's gone back to the community to work in the community because it's now livable, because she can get back and forth in an hour and a half instead of having to fly in or boat in, because the school is decent quality and she is confident that her family can access services in the community. And she wants to be part of that regrowth that's happening. I was in Casabonica, and Casabonica is the sixth community to connect to the Ontario Power Grid in the far north through Watay Power,

which is an Indigenous-owned hydroelectric company that's connecting communities to the grid, building these connections, and is 52% owned by, I think it's 16 communities. This is comparable to the Trans-Canada Highway, if you know what I mean. This is comparable to the Trans-Canada Highway, if you know what I mean. Like these are big, geographically difficult projects to achieve and huge astronomical investments. But that community now has access to reliable hydroelectric power that is not diesel generated. So two problems, you know, solved. And the community welcomed me and we celebrated.

And while I was there, they pointed out the high school that's getting built. The high school. This is really important because that was an action item in the Feathers of Hope report that came from the deaths in Thunder Bay. Casablanca is amongst the communities that have to send their children out to either Soul Lookout or Thunder Bay for high school education. and now families will have that choice. So I guess what I'm saying is the gap's huge, but man, when you start to see the work that's happening in community to close that gap with the additional resources that this government's been providing, there is hope that communities are going to be far more livable.

Your writing's in Thunder Bay, and you ran an organization called Shelter House for some years before you became a member of parliament. At the time did you have an inkling of sort of the terrible legacy of settler indigenous relations in Thunder Bay or how much of that was a surprise when those stories came out? It wasn't a surprise at all because before that I had worked in public health at the Thunder Bay District Health Unit for nine years in youth development, housing, and substance use. And one of the projects I did was with Dennis Franklin Camardi. We reached out to the high school. Most high schools have a partnership with the health units and we reached out to Dennis

Franklin Camardi because they didn't. And we were invited to come into the high school and work on, well, really projects to help build kids' confidence and connection to community as a tool to prevent problematic substance use. And the kids decided they wanted to have a leadership group. And so we did a bunch of projects with kids, but in the process, they talked about their experiences of extreme racism in the city. I'll give you two stories if you're okay with that. One was a young woman. It was just after Thanksgiving weekend. And just out of habit, I said, how was your long weekend?

What did you do for Thanksgiving? She was living with a foster home. This is how things happen. People stay with foster homes. And she said, well, I spent Thanksgiving in Robin's Donuts because my foster family told me this was a family event and that I wasn't welcome. And she didn't cry or look sad or, it wasn't like she said it with some expectation of pity. She was telling me what happened on the weekend. Another girl talked about, and she did cry, the humiliation of having frozen drinks thrown at her while she was walking.

And she was, you know, like any teenage girl, covered in slush and humiliated to go to school without clean clothes to change into. And these are just two stories of the many that we heard. stories of the many that we heard. And so before that, I had also taught a course at the college about various sort of key elements of contact. And I learned so much during that course about the history of this country, the shameful history of this country and how Indigenous people have been treated. So I didn't come to Shelterhouse ignorant, but I didn't expect to see the level of suffering that I did. Tell me about what went on at Shelter House. What services did it provide and what was your role?

Well, my role was executive director and so I was expected to keep the operation fiscally solvent so that we could meet our core principle which was ensuring that people had a safe place to sleep at night. And we also fed, we had two community feedings every day, where we fed anywhere between 100 and 200 people at each of those sessions. The shelter was built for 60, sorry, it was built for 44 people. And by the time I inherited it, it was sleeping routinely 66 with the extra mats on the floor in the sort of common room.

It was a low barrier shelter, meaning that people who were intoxicated or using substances could access. And it also had a managed alcohol program that provided six beds, if I'm remembering correctly, I think it was six beds for people that use chronic non-palatable alcohol like hand sanitizer and mouthwash and instead provide regular doses of palatable alcohol like hand sanitizer and mouthwash and instead provide regular doses of palatable alcohol for two reasons one to hopefully improve the health outcomes for people but two to keep people inside and housed and safe while they consume substances to anticipate another thing

i want to talk about that happened a little later that's a harm reduction model that is yeah absolutely and it was one of the reasons i was actually asked by the executive director who was Another thing I want to talk about that happened a little later, that's a harm reduction model. That is, yeah. Absolutely. And it was one of the reasons I was actually asked by the executive director who was very tired after 12 years of running the organization. And that happens in that field. I want to thank the many workers out there that are slogging it out tonight working in shelters and with really, really scared, sad, vulnerable, angry, the whole gamut of people. That's hard work. And so after 12 years, he had decided it was time for him to move on and do something differently,

and he asked me to apply. And one of the things that intrigued me was I had been actually really active in the setup of the Managed Alcohol Program, which is probably why I was asked to apply, because I really believed in it. I believed that even in our darkest days, we don't deserve to freeze to death. And the Managed Alcohol Program was about giving people shelter who were

often not eligible for even the most basic of services from what most of us would take for granted, services that we think are available for everyone. What made you decide to run for Parliament? And I remember one of our, I think probably our first conversation, one of the things we talked about was why you decided to run for the liberals and not the NDP. I think you'll understand I'm not, that's not an invitation to rank partisanship, but I do want to sort of recall what your thinking was on that question. People have asked me, like kids always ask me this. I go to schools. It's one of my favorite things to do, go and talk to high school students or kids about politics.

And kids always say, like, did you always know that you wanted to run for office? And my answer is no, I didn't actually. And matter of fact, I'm not even sure I would have known the process of running for office or what it meant. I kind of obviously knew what a member of parliament was, but did I really that well know what a member of parliament did? Obviously, as I matured in my career, I got to know politics, but it was really public health and the social determinants of health, which is a super wonky term. My husband always tells me, nobody knows what you're talking about, but things like housing

and social inclusion and, you know, employment and environmental safety. Those are all the kinds of things that create healthier, better adjusted people. And a lot of those things are determined politically, you know. So my interest began to grow. And so by the time I hit the shelter, I was like doing deputations to council, fighting with the province for what never came to be, which was health dollars, council, fighting with the province for what never came to be, which was health dollars, trying to get politicians of all stripes and citizens to care about the most vulnerable and voiceless in our community. And it was highly political work, actually. And I liked it. I

liked the fight of politics. It felt good to advocate for people. And so someone, like it always happens, someone says, you know, you're good at this, you should run for politics. And then after, they always say it takes more than one person to say that to a woman. And it's true, more than one person said that to me. And then a longtime liberal who was a nurse practitioner said, you know, I've submitted your name through the ask her to run thing that the liberals had in 2014, which actually didn't result in all that much to be honest. I went to a number of events, dragged my husband along with me. We went to NDP spaghetti dinners. Andrea Horvath came to town. Tom Mulcair came to town. And actually the combination of Tom Mulcair coming to town, the NDP stance on, remember that we were having a big conversation about whether or not we would legalize cannabis

and Tom Mulcair was like, I don't think so. And then the prime minister, then leader of the liberal party, his courageous approach to say, look, the youth wing of the liberal party has said we should legalize cannabis. That's what we're going to do. That was the clincher for me. I was like, Hey, that's sincere drug policy. Sign me up. And I got to tell you, I met Tom Mulcair and I thought that he would be interested in the executive director who ran the largest homeless shelter in northwestern Ontario. But you know those politicians that when you're talking to them, they're looking at the next person that might be more important? You do know those people. That was my experience with Tom Mulcair.

And so I didn't feel good talking to him, you know? So that's how I became a liberal candidate. I felt like there was a sincerity there that I could put my voice to. So you guys get elected to government, and then there's a committee, and Bill Blair, not yet a cabinet minister, does a long process of consultation on cannabis legalization, and then there's a bill, and then it happens. process of consultation on cannabis legalization, and then there's a bill, and then it happens.

All the way through that, it seemed like that act of legalizing cannabis was foreclosing any further relaxation of restrictions on harder drugs. And as a matter of fact, we're getting to the thing where you have a pretty substantial cameo appearance in Kennedy Stewart's book about how he decriminalized drugs in Vancouver. The prime minister would say to people when they asked, there's no latitude for any further moves. We're not going to do that. And then after 2018, 2019, that starts to change. Were those early years frustrating for you? No, not at all. I was super excited about the legalization of cannabis. Look, I knew tons of

people that use cannabis. And I think that was part of what was happening is we had political license to do that work. Don't forget, like people were using cannabis, regular people were using cannabis and they feeling all sketchy about having to get cannabis from a guy that they knew down the street. And kids were, you know, unfairly criminalized for the use of cannabis, mostly kids that weren't white and wealthy or middle class. One of the most moving conversations I ever had about cannabis after we legalized it was I was at this Italian Hall of Festival thing. And this older veteran man came up to me.

He was, you know, quite frail and he hadil and he had a cane and he was quite old. And he comes up to me and his eyes start welling up and he starts getting really emotional. And he said, thank you for legalizing cannabis. And I'm like, wow, this is not what I thought I was gonna hear from this guy. And he says, I felt like a criminal my whole life and I don't feel like a criminal anymore.

And so I was pretty pumped. Like this is stuff that is everyday human being stuff, you know? And I remember in my drug policy days, one of the things we taught kids was how to decrease your likelihood of getting criminalized for the use of cannabis. This was harm reduction too, by the way, if you get a criminal record as a young person or as a, you know, a 16 year old and up, that stuff is pretty hard to overcome. So we would teach kids like, yeah, maybe you like smoking pot, but you don't have to wear the Jamaican flag on your back, you know, because that is a clue to a police officer that you might be carrying or using

cannabis. And so we actually did harm reduction with kids about how to decrease the risk of criminalization, because it was such a huge blow for people's success. And so I was thrilled. And I knew that, like the Prime Minister, Canadians hadn't really wrapped their head yet around other kinds of substance use, but that they were ready for a vigorous conversation about cannabis. So I was pretty proud. Obviously there were really hard conversations about, don't you remember how many plants should be allowed and should people have the ability to grow their own and all of those things. But all of that stuff to me, important details that my

colleagues worked out and we all worked out, but the point of not criminalizing people for using cannabis, something that so many Canadians were already doing, it was a real honour to be part of that work. Why did you go further when you were health minister? Well, I knew you were going to ask me that because I listened to the Kennedy Stewart podcast. And what I would say is that, you know, Kennedy and indeed Sheila Malcolmson, who was the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions at that time, were asking for additional tools to deal with the deadly opioid crisis.

Kennedy, indeed the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, were saying that the criminalization of people who were using substances was getting in the way of connecting with people to actually get them to the treatment that they needed. sweet spots where you don't need money and you don't need a cabinet decision and you have these regulatory tools that you can actually work with partners on things that really matter to them. Kennedy's stuff and BC's eventual decriminalization in small quantities was one space. A couple weeks ago, David Eby, the Premier of British Columbia, another guest on this podcast, brought in measures to toughen up police enforcement of drug use in most public places. It seemed to me like a response to quite a substantial backlash, not only a political backlash, but to some extent a public backlash about the sense that we're losing our downtowns and that people are seeing things on streets and sidewalks that they're not used to seeing.

What do you make of Premier Eby's decision on that front? And then we're going to get to your portfolio because we are getting pretty far afield from your actual portfolio. No, I kind of like it though. Listen, I always tell my team, I can talk about drug policy like till I die, basically. Listen, I think it's a

normal response of communities to be shaken by visions of abject suffering and that's what this is let's be clear I was in Victoria on holidays actually and I was at the salon I was on holidays let's be clear it's almost embarrassing to say But I was watching through the window. It almost brings me to tears, you know, because I'm a mom. But I was watching a young man about the age of my young man in such a sad state. Paul, I don't even know how to tell you what. Well, maybe you've seen it, like when people are that sick. And that's so hard to see.

And nobody wants to see that. And you know why? Because it triggers in all of us that hopelessness and desperation. Like, what do we do? What do we do for that person? And is this right? And how come I have to look at that? And business owners are also saying this is bad for business. And I think, you know, as BC struggles to get that balance right, I think it's a reflection on how you can't just sort of use one aspect of drug policy to come up with a solution. You know, you need to be looking at the whole comprehensive suite. I wrote the Thunder Bay drug strategy. I don't want to get all policy wonky on you, but you do need the work and prevention, which is why I'm a federal politician, by the way, because so much of prevention is investing in people and communities. You do need harm reduction so that people don't die. You can't, dead is dead, right?

Maybe you've talked to the mom stop the harms people, but if you want a good cry, talk to them because they'll tell you that they'd do anything to get their child back. And that harm reduction is a huge piece of that. And safe supply is a huge piece of that because, well, you know know once your child is gone you'd do anything to get them back and enforcement is a piece of that and so is treatment and I think BC is trying to get that balance right and I hope that the investments we're making in our public health care system that are targeted to mental health and to treatment and to supporting provinces and territories to do that really hard work is going to help with that balance. I have spent most of this autumn coming back and back and back

at the general question of drug policy because I got a feeling it's going to be a third or more of the next federal election campaign. I sort of don't want to raise the curtain on that campaign now. But the one thing I tell people is that most of the people who die of overdoses die alone. And that when they're out in the open and often unpleasant to watch, they're also closer to help. And that's kind of after a decade of covering this file, that's the only thing I know for sure, is that when they're alone, they're in bigger trouble. Well, not to get all partisan on you,

but when Pierre Poliev talks about going back to the war on drugs, what he's actually saying is going back to the war on drug users. Because I don't know anyone, correct me if I'm wrong, put up your hand if you don't love someone who uses substances. I mean, this is not a unique experience to just a few. We can all think about people in our lives who have really struggled. And I don't want to go back to that place where we say that, you know, drug use is shameful and stigmatized people who use substances. You know, I used to say the only difference between a wealthy alcoholic and a homeless alcoholic is one can do it in the privacy of their living room and the other one doesn't have a place to safely drink. And that is how things like the Manage Alcohol Program grew, you know.

So I think without compassion, we're lost in this space because it isn't somebody else's kids. It's all of our kids. It's our kids and our fathers and our mothers and our sisters and brothers. And, you know, and it's taking young lives in their prime. And so I think the right question to ask is, what are we not getting right in terms of helping people? And, you know, when I think about the call for more treatment, more treatment, more treatment, and we hear that all the time at all levels of politics and all communities, I think that we should also be asking what kind of treatment? What's working and what's not working?

And so just a shameless plug, there's a great summit coming up. It's the second annual. When I first was appointed as Minister of Indigenous Services Canada, I realized we often bring Indigenous people together to tell us about all the terrible things that have happened and all the ways that they're suffering.

But rarely do we bring people together to say, what are you doing well and what's working? And we had our first annual Mental Health Summit last year and it was such a smashing success because Indigenous people are actually leading the way in treatment that is beginning to show some real promise. And it isn't about white-knuckling and abstinence and 12 steps, although that works for many people.

It is also about reclaiming culture and working on that toxic legacy of shame and trauma that Indigenous people have been carrying. I should mention, since the name came up, I have extended many invitations to Pierre Paul. You have to come on my podcast, including inviting him before I invited you for this slot tonight. And that invitation remains. I don't know how I feel about that. I guess I'll have to become a leader or something just kidding one of you didn't run um i uh that invitation remains open i've had many conversations with him the most recent one was in fall of 2021 we're overdue for a catch-up. So I just thought I'd put that on the airwaves.

I can slip him a note at question period if you want. More of my conversation with Patty Hajdu after the break. As you know, here on my show, I get to talk to the people behind the news, the leaders and thinkers tackling the big problems we're facing today. If you enjoy listening to people telling stories about major events in their own words, then you should listen to the podcast Art of Factuality, hosted by acclaimed novelist Kim Thuy. Kim draws on the Canadian Museum of History's archives and exhibits

to help understand our past from the people who lived it. And she gets deep into conversation with guests whose lives have been shaped by those pivotal moments. Artifactuality is a podcast from the Canadian Museum of History and Antica Productions. Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. When you become Minister of Crown Indigenous Relations, no, that's not what you are. When you become Minister of Indigenous Services, does it begin with quite, like in the briefing, does it begin with quite an extensive geography and history lesson? Is that a big part of it because it it it seems to me that there's you have to become more familiar than most people do with this with a

a different Canada interspersed with the one that folks like you and me learned about in school yeah it's such a great question um I think it could be luckily I've been doing cabinet minister jobs for eight years so you know now I'm at the point where I can kind of customize those, get to know your file briefings that at the beginning, you don't know what you're doing. Remember those early heydays where nobody knew what they were doing, but now I'm, you know, this is my fourth portfolio. So I was able to work with the department to sort of say, this is what I need to know. This is what I don't know. This is how I would like to proceed in learning about the file. But even with all of all of that you know the travel that I do is so different

than any of my colleagues like there's barely any international travel it's all domestic travel and it is I would in some cases more expensive than international travel because it's going to some of the most remote places in our country that most Canadians will never see. And I think really, even though I have a history of understanding many aspects of colonization and many sort of, I suppose, key timeline points in the history of our relationship with Indigenous people, it doesn't prepare me sometimes for the reality of what communities are struggling with. So I'm always in a learning state. And the department is large, and there are many other agencies that the department interacts with on

a whole bunch of different areas, including strength and governance and economic growth and tourism agencies. So there's always that kind of constellation of things to learn. But no, I came to this file with two real assets, really. One, a fairly good baseline understanding of what I was getting myself into. And two, and I'm really grateful for this, really good relationships at home and across the country with Indigenous people that I trust that I can go to and say, holy man, this is hard. And what would you do? And how do I manage this? And what do you think about that? And people like Alvin Fidler, who is hard, and what would you do, and how do I manage this, and what do you think about that? And people like Alvin Fidler, who is now again the Grand Chief of NAN, and people like Honorable

Murray Sinclair, who, you know, once I asked him to help on CHRT, it really sort of unstuck those conversations, and the many women that I've met along the way who hold my hand and, you know, prop me up when things look bleak you mentioned chrt the canadian human rights tribunal only a few months ago finally signed off on an offer of a very substantial federal settlement for indigenous child welfare services i'll tell you straight this is not a file that i know all the details of but i know it started out as a big number and government was sent back to the drawing board and said that didn't completely fulfill the obligations. And since then, you've had better luck.

Is that file done? Is it going ahead? Almost done. Well, let me just back up. So the CHRT file on the discriminatory funding of child welfare, because, of course, the CHRT is hearing a number of cases, discriminatory funding of child welfare, because of course the CHRT is hearing a number of cases, but this is on particularly the discriminatory persistent underfunding of child welfare. The settlement proposal is split into two. And so we had an agreement in principle about two years ago for a sum of in the range of $40 billion to both settle compensation claims for people that were victimized through that systemic inequity

and their families, as well as another, roughly the other half for reforming the system. And the compensation piece, we've arrived at a final agreement. And so that piece has gone through the CHRT, and you're right, it's received their blessing. And I want to thank Marie Sinclair, who did agree at my request to come in and help mediate those conversations and gave both all parties actually really great advice and helped us helped us finalize that piece and it's now with the federal court soon hopefully to receive their blessing as well and the other piece we are still working with parties on right now which is the I would say substantially even more difficult piece of what system reform looks like and different people

have different ideas but what we all agree on is that it has to be equitable and so there's substantial work on reforming that part of that is woven into the child welfare legislation that restores rights to indigenous people to care for their own children and family services which which I think is going to be transformational. I've signed a number of these coordination agreements between provinces, First Nations and Canada that provides both adequate funds with a long-term commitment, as well as the legal mechanisms for their own law to be in place. These are transformational pieces. And that's the self-determination piece that gets us out of this constant loop of, we'll fund you, but just not enough. And we'll tell you exactly how to do it. And by the way, if you don't want to do it our way, then we'll hold back funds.

And that kind of dance that's been happening since contact. I know you get asked, God, is it ever going to be enough? Are we ever going to be done on this file? And you mentioned earlier that it's one of the kind of most maddening questions that you face, I think. Yeah, because I think underlying that question is a lack of understanding that these are relationships. A treaty is not a one and done. It's not like a bill of sale.

When you think about what unceded and unsurrendered means, it means that land was taken and it was stolen and people were forcibly removed from their land to the most uninhabitable land so that our ancestors could prosper near waterways, in areas where resources are rich, in areas that we determined were viable for farming. And so my job as a minister that's responsible for Indigenous services is to help breathe life into those commitments that were made so long ago. And the great news for Canadians is that when we get reconciliation right and we travel this road this isn't just good for Indigenous people this is good for us too.

You talk about treaty obligations one of the landmark pieces of legislation in the last several years was Canadian implementation of the obligations under the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and a lawyer I know who works in the field called me up and says, do people even understand what this actually entails? This entails essentially going through all federal legislation to see whether it conforms to the obligations under UNDRIP. There was an announcement here at the NAC a few months ago to suggest that that process is underway. But am I right in thinking that that's just actually a titanic undertaking that a lot of people have not? It is a big undertaking.

No, I think you're absolutely right. David Lemony and others, Mark Miller and many others that pushed not just on the willingness of Parliament to pass the UN Declaration Act, but to create an action plan with Indigenous partners. You're right. It's going to transform how we do business in this country. to be too partisan. But, you know, the Harper government, of which Paulieff was a big part of for the entire 10 years that they were there, refused to acknowledge the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People at the UN. Very embarrassing for Canada. And so we're in a new space here. So what does that mean? It means for all of us learning what it means to be a good partner in co-development. I'm learning that as I work on water legislation. I think a colonial government's perspective of co-development, which I think I've learned as a minister,

is that we would write the legislation and then we would go to our partner and we would say, what do you think? And that's not co-development. And so, you know, with the water legislation, when I inherited this file, I realized we have to take a step back and we have to have principles. You actually have to say, well, what does it mean to you to co-develop? What does it mean to Canada to co-develop? How will we resolve our disputes about what should be in a legislation?

What will we do as the bill works its way through Parliament and amendments are proposed? Who gets to decide which amendments are accepted by Parliament? amendments are proposed, who gets to decide which amendments are accepted by Parliament. And it starts to raise some really philosophical questions about how we will do this work together. And so it's super exciting, actually, because really, and I think this is a foundation of why I'm a federal politician, I truly believe that when everybody has a fair chance to succeed in this country, we're going to have healthier communities. We're going to have less people that are struggling in our streets, feeling like they are completely abandoned by society. We are going to have healthier environments.

We're going to be better off when we can do this together. I profoundly believe that. It's a little Pollyannish, I can see by your face, but I have to believe that, or. Why would I do what I do? I was wondering whether I would, having established once again, my credentials is the only Canadian podcast that is going to ask about conformity with UNDRIP obligations, whether I should then pivot to saying you guys are 15 points back in the polls. How does that feel? So that I can, I can get, I can, I can get invited to the press gallery Christmas party, but I'll tell you what,

we'll talk about all that stuff another time. I thought it was the other way around. I thought, like, you guys invited politicians. It's been so long since I've gone that I... You forgot the protocol. One time I invited Jane Philpott to the Press Gallery dinner, and it would have been lovely, it would have been lovely. And down in Washington, everyone was in aizzy because the our colleagues in Washington were wondering whether they could

go ahead with with their gallery dinner because Trump was the president and Trump hated them and I said to myself you know what if it's icky when you don't like the people in charge it should be icky all the time and I called Philpott back and I said I'm not going again this year so yeah I I'm 15 years past going to the gallery dinner um but I like getting dressed up for the gallery dinner so I go every year because then I can get dressed up I'll leave you to it it is very generous of you to take the time to go through all of these files with us. It is unusual for a minister to talk about things that she did in other portfolios and well outside of her sort of area of mandate letter expertise. And for both of those things, thanks, Patty Hajdu, for coming up and

sharing with us. Thanks for listening to The Paul Wells Show and thank you to our friends at the National Arts Centre for hosting this conversation. The Paul Wells Show is produced by Antica in partnership with the University of Toronto's Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. Our producer is Kevin Sexton. Our executive producers are Laura Reguerre and Stuart Cox. Our opening theme music is by Kevin Bright and our closing theme music is by Andy Milne. Go to paulwells.substack.com to subscribe to my newsletter.

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