The Paul Wells Show - Why I hate Christmas

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Join us for an hour of live music, politics, and self-reflection. Former Premiers Kathleen Wynne and Jason Kenney trade jabs onstage and look back on the year that was. Catharine Vandelinde, executive director of Options Housing, talks about her work getting people off the street and into homes. Jazz guitarist Jocelyn Gould performs "It Had To Be You," "Softly As In a Morning Sunrise," "I Haven’t Managed to Forget You" and our theme music. Singer-songwriter Scott Merritt performs his songs "Moving Day" and "Willing Night." And Paul finds the spirit of Christmas... eventually. Thank you to the National Arts Centre for hosting this event. Thanks to Meta and WestJet for their support. Season 3 of The Paul Wells Show is sponsored by McGill University’s Max Bell School of Public Policy.

The Paul Wells Show is made possible by McGill University's Max Bell School of Public Policy, where I'm a senior fellow. And now, live from the National Arts Centre in Ottawa, the Paul Wells Holiday Show. show. Thanks, everyone. The weather outside is frightful, but our guests are so insightful. I am so glad that you're able to join me tonight for this very special show. It's Christmas time, a time for families to gather and celebrate, a time to put presents under the tree and unwrap them, a time for laughter, joy, and contemplation. I never liked it.

Just about every year when Christmas comes around, I find myself counting the days until the holidays are over. I'm pretty sure it's an occupational hazard. I've spent my entire adult life writing about what's happening. It's not just a job. If it was just a job, I'd have packed it in by now. It gives my life meaning and purpose. When you write about what's happening for a living, when writing about what's happening is your life, then whenever things stop happening, even if only for a few days, it's hard to adjust. After I finished high school and moved out into the world, I spent most of

my Christmases going back home to Sarnia, where my siblings and their families would join me in visiting mom and dad. There I would be reminded every year, like clockwork, that I'm hard to buy presents for. My family would do their best with mixed results. Some of the worst guesses came from my dad. Now, dad was the most generous man I ever knew. He saved more of a school teacher's salary than anyone would have thought possible.

He tutored on the side and saved that money too. And for his entire life, whenever anyone in the family had a real emergency or experienced real need, Dad would help us out without fail. But the only reason that was even possible was that most of the time he was also the cheapest man I ever met. If he didn't need to spend money, he was not going to spend any money. And I think he mostly found Christmas confusing. It made no sense to him, giving people stuff just because you knew them.

One year, dad noticed that I like to wear cologne sometimes. Now, cologne costs more than Dad thought it should. But fortunately, he rode the bus to work. And that year, there was a guy on the bus who was selling knock-off cologne. That was what was waiting for me under the tree that year. A bottle of fake cologne from the Sarnia number five bus. It's supposed to smell like the real thing, my dad said hopefully. It smelled like oven cleaner. I realize now that what I should have done was worn that oven cleaner every year when I went

home for Christmas. And if wearing it could bring my mom and dad back today, I would dab some behind my ears right now. But in those early days when my career was just starting, I often didn't have to go home to try my luck with the gift exchange. Usually I was stuck in Montreal, low man on the seniority list, pulling holiday duty as a cub reporter at the Montreal Gazette. And the thing is, staying in Montreal for the holidays didn't feel like I'd drawn the short straw. It felt like I had won the golden ticket, a reporter's notebook, and a license to use it. When you're shy and awkward, the most valuable thing in the world is a reason to be somewhere.

I never really feel like I belong in a room full of strangers. But if I've got a story to write and an audience waiting to read it on the other side of a deadline, well, then I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. Montreal in that era was the greatest journalism school I could ever have imagined. Every day brought its share of great and terrible events, a national unity crisis, a summer-long standoff between the army and the Mohawk warriors at Oka. Even the smaller stories gave me a chance to be somewhere interesting and to figure out the best way to describe it. The other day I read through some of my old stories. It confirmed my memory. The years when I was working in Montreal through the holidays were the good years. Two days before Christmas, 1989, I covered lunch at

the local food bank, dished out by a Mountie in full dress uniform. Then I went out to cover a protest at the Romanian trade office on St. Urban Street. Ceaușescu the criminal, kill the criminal, some of the protesters chanted. Two days later in Bucharest, a firing squad did just that. Two days later in Bucharest, a firing squad did just that. A week later, right after New Year's, I interviewed a weather expert about why it was so cold. The Gazette was always absolutely amazed to discover that Montreal was cold in winter and hot in the summer. Sharing that news with our readers, twice a year, like clockwork, was a top priority, and I was often the instrument of that fascination.

This particular weather expert was no help at all. It's more or less just the luck of the draw, he said, and that's just the way the chips fall, and there's a high degree of randomness, And it's like, pick a card, any card. My story contained every one of those quotes, and I made fun of the weather expert for feeding them to me. In the end, it wasn't a story about the weather, it was a story about how nobody knows anything. Because if you can't turn lemons into lemonade,

the daily news business is not for you. A year later, I was 24 writing meteor stories, a study on the environmental impact of a Hydro-Quebec project. Deadly dull you would say. But finding the drama in the deadly dull was already becoming one of my specialties. I wrote that sucker onto the front page on December 20th and then I wrote it onto the front page again on January 5th. Two front page stories in three weeks, that was the only gift I needed that year. In between, I got sent out to cover last minute Christmas shopping. The trick here is to write something that doesn't read like the last couple of hundred

stories on last minute Christmas shopping. Reading this one, I couldn't help but admire my younger self. The story ran on December 24th, 1990, which meant that I got sent out on December 23rd, which wasn't the last day of Christmas shopping. It was the second last day. So I didn't get sent out to talk to people who were panicking. I got sent out to talk to people who weren't panicking yet. And that's how I wrote it.

Here's my lead from December 24th, 1990. With the calm efficiency of people used to creeping deadlines, Montreal's last-minute shoppers hit the streets yesterday in a cold-blooded assault on their Christmas shopping lists. Maybe today the panic will start to show in their eyes. Perhaps when closing time nears, as sales clerks begin vacuuming the aisles, and piped-in carols are interrupted by late-breaking bulletins of sleigh-shaped blips on northern radar, Montreal's procrastinators will start to wonder whether this time they haven't gone a bit too far. But yesterday, they were having none of that. I want to hug the young guy who wrote that lead. I want to tell him, you understood the assignment, kid. Now, of course, work over

the Christmas holidays is usually reserved for only the youngest reporters. Within a few years, I had moved to Ottawa, where nobody on my side works through the holidays because nobody on their side is in town screwing anything up. Even at the end of 1994, even with a historic referendum on Quebec sovereignty coming up, even at the Montreal Gazette, I had Christmas off. I filed a couple of baggers, which is our term for feature profiles of cabinet ministers that could run any time, and I headed home to see what dad had found on the number five bus. I guess I've softened on Christmas over the years. I've learned to slow down and be grateful for the time spent with loved ones, even though I do check my phone for headlines every few minutes.

I'm pretty sure the greatest day of my life was the day Lisa said she would marry me. But a close second would be the day I learned what it feels like to have a story to write and an audience waiting to hear it. These days, you're that audience. I never stop being grateful for your support.

These annual holiday shows at Canada's National Arts Centre are my chance to thank you. I called up some remarkable people over the last few months, people who are always looking for a chance to make and build and help and create. We're going to put on a show for you, and that will be my gift to you. We're going to start with some music. Our first musical guest has a fast-growing reputation.

Her first album, Elegant Traveller, won a Juno, and there have been three more albums since that one. She's been playing with some of the biggest stars in jazz. She just got back from a tour of England and Ireland. She is something else. Please welcome, from Winnipeg, Jocelyn Gould. APPLAUSE from Winnipeg, Jocelyn Gould. applause piano plays piano plays

piano plays piano plays piano plays piano plays piano plays piano plays piano plays piano plays

piano plays piano plays I just give you your way why do I just throw fate kept me saying I had to wait. I saw them all, just couldn't fall till we met It had to be you It had to be you I've wandered around and finally found somebody who could make me be true and could make me be blue blue and even be glad try to be boss. But they wouldn't do.

For nobody else gives me a thrill. With all your faults, I love you still it had to be you wonderful you it had to be you Thank you. guitar solo Some others I've seen could make me be mean. Could make me be cross or try to be boss, but they wouldn't do. For nobody else gives me a thrill With all your faults, I love you still It had to be you It had to be you It had to be you.

Wonderful you. Jocelyn Gould. We're celebrating the holiday tonight on the podcast, but this is a tough time of year for a lot of people. These are the longest nights of the year and some of the coldest. And for too many people, this is the hardest and loneliest time of the year. They talk about housing all the time on Parliament Hill, but those big rooms sometimes feel very distant from the problem. And yet, as everyone here knows, the problem is just down the hill. Tonight, I wanted you to meet somebody who's dedicated to making things better in concrete

ways at street level. Catherine Vandalind is the Executive Director of Options Housing, an Ottawa organization committed to ending homelessness, one client at a time. I've admired the work they do for a few years now, and I am so glad Catherine is here to tell us about it. Please give a warm welcome to Catherine van der Linde. Tell the people a little bit about what Options Housing does. Sure I'm happy to. So Options Housing has been around in Ottawa since 1989. We just celebrated our 35th birthday and started out as supportive housing,

so permanent housing with supports for people experiencing homelessness. We've grown since then. We now do a lot of work around homelessness prevention. We support about 1,000 people a month just to prevent homelessness from happening. We know if we can stop it in the first place, that's the best case scenario. So we do homelessness prevention. We operate supportive housing. We have about 135 tenants who live in four buildings. They're apartments. People hold their lease. We have staff on site to provide support for whatever people need. And we have a very large Housing First program as well. So that's a team that works with people to find housing across the city.

Some private market housing, some community housing. We attach rent supplements to the rent to help make it affordable for folks. And then the team, once they're housed, the team goes on site into people's apartments and provides support directly to them that way. Now there are soup kitchens, there are meal programs, there are temporary shelters and so on. What's different for the client about the fact of getting long-term housing and an address? Once somebody comes to Options, they're housed. Almost 100% of people that come into our supportive housing program never return to homelessness. Over 90% of people who are housed through our Housing First program never return to homelessness. Over 90% of people who are housed through our Housing First

program never returned to homelessness. So, you know, we really do end it. And, you know, Soup Kitchen shelters, that kind of, we call it the cycle of homelessness, it's a lot to navigate, it's a lot to figure out every day, day in and day out. So the difference is your life, you're in survival mode when you don't have a home and your day is filled with trying to figure out how to get through that day and how to meet your needs and, you know, have your needs met. Once you're housed, that's all there for you. So you can focus on other things. You can focus on things like reconnecting with your family, picking back up hobbies or things that you did before that you couldn't do when you were on the streets,

maybe re-exploring employment or volunteering or going back to school or whatever it is that's important to you. You might be dealing with physical health issues or mental health issues, substance use, whatever that is. But being homeless doesn't allow space and time to do any of that. But being housed does. I mean, it's an extraordinary figure that almost everyone once you get them into housing they stay housed and they you know they don't go back into that cycle

of homelessness that you described. I was really surprised the first time I heard it. Do you have a hard time convincing decision makers, funders, people in politics to understand the level of success that you're having with these efforts? They see what we're doing because we show them the evidence. They see it and they fund us to do it. Probably the person that's hardest to convince is the person moving in because these are folks often that have been through, they've floated through different support systems, different spaces and it's not worked out. So when they come to us and we say this is your home and it's permanent, it's your home for as long as you want to us and we say, this is your home and it's permanent, it's your home for as long as you want it to be,

that can be hard to believe. In the introduction, I talked about how we talk about housing a lot as a federal issue. But some of the issues that we talk about at the federal level really do affect your client base and your own work. Cost of housing, cost of living, inflation, those have had an impact on the environment within which you're working over the last few years.

Yeah, they really have. The need has just become so great. I mean, I remember a time, I think many of us do, when homelessness was not common. You'd see somebody on the street and you'd think, oh my God, that's terrible, this poor person. And now it's part of our landscape, which awful and it shouldn't be and we shouldn't be accepting of that that that's just the way it is and and we have a generation of kids now for whom that's just the way it is I did a presentation to a grade 12 class not long ago and at the end one of the kids put up her hand and said I had no idea that we knew how to end homelessness I thought it was just part of our world, part of our existence, and it isn't. Is Christmas different from the rest of the year for your clients and for your organization?

It's a little bit different. Christmas is a bit of a mixed bag depending on somebody's circumstances. We have lots of people who are connected to family or friends, and that's a big part of Christmas for them. But for others, it can be a lonely time. You know, we do a lot. We've had some great donors step up this year,

so everybody's getting a gift. We do holiday meals. Myself and my family, we go on Christmas Day. We go to our sites, and we have coffee and snacks with folks. And, you know, staff are on site over the Christmas holidays, so we make sure that people aren't alone. But it can certainly be a tough time of year, yeah. If you had one message that you would hope that the people in Parliament Hill could hear, what would it be?

I want to reignite the belief that we can end this. This is not something we're still trying to figure out. We're not scratching our heads and trying to figure out how to end homelessness. We know how to do it. We're out there doing it every day. You know we're entering into election season. People are going to start knocking on our doors, calling us, looking for our votes and to my mind the number one question should be what are you doing? What will you do to end this? Because we can end it. Yeah please go ahead.

Yeah, please go ahead. Where can people find out more, and where can people donate if they want to help? Great question, Paul. Thank you. You've been such a good friend to us for years, too. I do want to give you a shout-out for that. To learn more about Options Housing, optionshousing.ca, and get to know your local organizations who are doing this work.

I want to thank you for coming out and spreading the word tonight and for all the work that you do. Please give a warm round of applause to Catherine Vandalin from Options Housing. Thank you. Jocelyn Gould is going to come back up here and play another song for us. Jocelyn Gould, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. piano plays softly I want to say a word about the people who are supporting this podcast. McGill University's Max Bell School of Public Policy is committed to the research, teaching,

public outreach, and practical advocacy of sound public policy, grounded in a solid understanding of the overall policy process, with all its imperfections and limitations. With their one-year intensive Master of Public Policy program, they teach a principle-based design of policy solutions to important problems. Learn more at mcgill.ca slash maxbellschool. I'm trying something different with the music this year. I have been following all of these musicians through their recordings, some for a long time,

some more recently, but I've never heard any of them perform in person before tonight. I am not above giving gigs to my friends, but I have never gotten any of them perform in person before tonight. I am not above giving gigs to my friends, but I have never gotten tired of discovering new artists too, and tonight we get to discover all of the artists together. In the next case, it's about time. In the summer of 1986, I became the entertainment editor at the Gazette, the student paper at the University of Western Ontario, as it then was. I had just turned 20. Every week the record companies would send us

boxes of LPs because a story in a campus paper was a great way to spread the word of a new artist. I would take the review copies home, crack a beer, and spin them one after another, and only a few were memorable. That summer, the album that I couldn't get out of my head was called Gravity is Mutual. It was so smart and distinctive. I could hardly believe it came from a singer-songwriter from Guelph, Ontario, named Scott Merritt. I finally interviewed him for the Gazette when he came to Western,

but I had to miss the gig. I've never stopped listening to that wonderful album, and I've always wondered about the musician who recorded it. Finally, 39 years later, I'm in a position to do something about it. Here to perform his song, Moving Day, from the 1986 album Gravity Is Mutual, please welcome Scott Merritt. I took the seat beside the window Where the headlights beat the drum It beats that little drum inside my head But even when I'm dreaming I hear you talking to a friend And there's no one around to set the record straight record stream Driver, it's moon day

Deliver me from this half-truth truth deliver me Driver, it's moon day Deliver me guitar solo That house was not a home with the poison we had spoken Just two ghosts looking over their shoulder Quiet in some judgment, think until it's done There's no lock that their conscience couldn't open And driver, it's moon day Deliver me from this half-world

Deliver me Driver, it's moon day Deliver me Dry world Smooth one day Deliver me From this half world Deliver me from this half-world Deliver me

Driver, it's moon day Deliver me Never me © transcript Emily Beynon Scott Barrett, ladies and gentlemen. Scott, come on back up here. We're going to talk. Run away from the scrum. What do you think you are, a cabinet minister? We were chatting earlier, and you said that you have been tweaking the lyrics of that 40-year-old song.

What's that about? It always felt a little lopsided to me, perspective-wise. So I tried to make it more from two sides as opposed to being from one side. It's still a little lopsided. But I'm working on it. Give me another 40 years. Well, the way things are going, I'll still be here. So I interviewed you about this album in 1986,

and then we haven't really had a chance to catch up since then. What have you been doing in the meantime? Let's take a seat. Well, I guess when we met, that was a record that I was making for one label. And that label folded. And it's just sort of like a Rubik's Cube of record labels after that.

And at a certain point, I realized I had been away from my family for a long time. So I just sort of recalibrated and decided I wanted to figure out some way to work at home. So I got into record production. figure out some way to work at home. So I got into record production. What was most important when I was starting out was making things, you know. And that's what it is about. It's just all you're doing is making.

You're not promoting or shilling or stuff like that. Another thing we were discussing earlier is how it sure wasn't obvious at the time, but those days for independent artists in smaller centres in Ontario, in hindsight, sure looked like a golden age. Yeah. That it's hard to find steady work. It's hard to get better at your craft these days.

Yeah, if you told us, any of us that were doing it at that time, that it was a golden age, we would have gone, ha, ha, ha. But yeah, it seemed like it was because we could work all the time. We could play as much as we wanted. There was always venues to play. There's always something to look forward to, so you're always working on your chops. And that's the one thing that's sort of a bit distressing lately, has been that the kids that come in haven't been able to work on their chops because they're so busy just trying to pay rent.

They write great music, great songs, great ideas and stuff, but they don't get enough elbow room to really work things out like we did. Well, I think we should give you another chance to hone your own craft here tonight would you all like to hear another song from Scott Merritt? And you brought a colleague with you the distinguished bassist Jeff Byrd is going to come and join Scott on a tune from his more recent album from 2015 this is a tune called Willing Night. Ladies and gentlemen, Scott Merritt. applause Thank you. June bugs banging into lamps up and down the road

All the dark-eyed windows where we run up the split-level roads where we run up the split-level roads. There's a rail in a train yard crying somewhere. We could catch that. We could catch that. Heat rising for a while. Up into a willing night On a town hill, we're sitting at the edge of the earth Looking down and the light's cut loose from a universe

Cut loose from a universe Just the one taxi crawling out from under a rock We could catch that, we could catch that He'd rise in for a while Up into a willing night Radiate Radiate into the arms so dark and gray Bloom toward the dust of days A willing night, it's on the rise Into the arms so dark and wide Moon, your thousand tides If all of that can rise, then yes And in the unwind, then yes Then yes, then in everything just this What might, what might, what might What might, what might, what might, what might, what might, what might Thank you. I just let you in Just let me give you anything

Just give me piano plays softly Scott Merritt, ladies and gentlemen. Jeff Byrd on bass. You're saying, Paul, when will there be some politics? Sometimes the hardest thing to find in politics is experience and perspective. My next guests have plenty of both, and I am amazed to learn that they get along just fine. She was the Premier of Ontario. He was the Premier of Alberta. Two great tastes that go great together. It is an honour to have them here tonight.

Please welcome Jason Kenney and Kathleen Wynne. What are you two up to? A bit of this, a bit of that. You mean together? Yeah. Every time I say this, people say, they do stuff together? Kathleen, explain yourself. Yeah, people are going to start talking yeah well I I was this is like the fourth time at least at least yeah people keep asking us you know it's our deep

affection for one another we love talking about wokeism I don't know what I lit her up on that I guess I'm the ying to Kathleen's yang. I had a whole bunch of other questions, but what did you have to say about wokeism, Jason Kenney? I'm not for it. We had a go at each other. Steve Paikin was interviewing us, and we were talking about the state of the world.

I'm worried about going backwards in terms of people paying attention to social justice and I don't know you're not or not at all absolutely I'm at we're come to think of it we're at the NAC National Arts Center and that's what set me off it was the week that the NAC announced that one of the theaters here was going to restrict admissions based on racial identity. And I said, in our national institutions in Canada are doing that, this thing is going too far. And so we lit it up on stage. Yeah. And I guess, yeah, anyway, this isn't what you wanted us to talk about. By the way, Paul, I came not, with all the respect to Kathleen, I came because of Jocelyn Gould and the talent you have on stage.

You missed your true vocation as an impresario. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're hoping that there can be a late life blossoming. I've got friends here from the National Arts Centre who would want me to remind everyone that Blackout Nights at the NAC celebrate black identity but are open to everyone. Did I get that right, Annabelle?

Yes. Okay. Nice to see a course correction. But what on earth happened in 2024, Kathleen, that could have you worried about going back? When you look back at the year... Let me think. He's poking us, Kathleen.

Let me think. What stands out from the political year that's now ending? I assume you're not talking about Taylor's era's tour. You're the boss. South of the border. South of the border. I actually went down and knocked on doors. My son, who's here tonight, and I went down.

My sister came over from Boston. We knocked on doors in Philadelphia. And, yeah, I'm very worried about what has happened south of the border. I was worried Philadelphia and yeah I'm very worried about what has happened south of the border. I was worried in 2016, I'm more worried now. I think that you know whatever happens in the States is a huge impact here and I think we're in a scary place for Canada and for the world. Very cheery. Do you think broadly we're heading for a replay of the first Trump presidency or for something different? Well, I don't know, you know, when he was first elected

in 2016, I'm listening to people talking about the trade discussion. And so I was premier in Ontario, and we spent a lot of time I met with 38 governors. And we, you know, we spent a lot of time kind of reinforcing the relationships that are based on our mutual dependence. And I'm not sure that that's going to be enough this time. I think that there are different people around him. I mean, I'm not I'm not a pundit. I don't know everything that's going on, obviously. But I'm worried that he's kind of meaner this time. You know, he's going to get his time. He wants to get his way. He

knows better what he wants to do. He didn't expect to win last time. Now he knows what he wants to do. So I think there's more of a risk right now, actually, than there was in 2016. Jason Kenney, same question. Well, who knows? I'm not even sure he does. This is an improvisational leader. I don't even think his own team necessarily knows what he's going to say tomorrow. Same basic orientation. And whether people like it or not, we've got to deal with it. He is going to be the leader of our largest trading partner, the superpower with a majority in both houses of Congress and a de facto majority in the US Supreme Court. So Canadian liberals can sink into a warm bath of self

satisfaction and just criticizing MAGA, or we can actually step up and deal with the reality. Now, I will say this, though. I think the biggest question, and you've been, I think, addressing this on your podcast, Paul, in the last couple of segments. The biggest question coming out of the November election in the U.S. is for the left. If people in the American left really believe that Donald Trump is literally Hitler, or Hitler adjacent, then they have to ask themselves, how did we lose so badly to that personality? And what excesses did we abide on the left? And frankly, I think Canadian liberals, you know, right now, I'm sorry to bridge this into domestic politics, the BC Liberal Party doesn't exist anymore, effectively doesn't exist in Alberta, And frankly, I think Canadian liberals, you know, right now, I'm sorry to bridge this into domestic politics.

The B.C. Liberal Party doesn't exist anymore. Effectively doesn't exist in Alberta, Saskatchewan. Manitoba had its worst. Liberal Party had its worst results since they joined Confederation. And that's true to the Atlantic provinces and Ontario. I think people broadly on the left and center left in this country have a lot of questions to ask about how they've lost so much of their traditional constituency. Kathleen, he's right. I'm not usually one for blaming the losers, and I'm not really blaming the Democratic Party. Well, I sometimes like to make fun of the losers, but that's another story. It's a lovely quality. Ride in from the hills and shoot the wounded. But I do think that the most interesting questions

are the ones that are faced by the Democratic Party after really three rough elections. Joe Biden pulled that out in 2020. But on paper, these should not have been close. No, I absolutely agree. And I agree with what you're what you're saying, Jason. I mean, I think there are, you know, really serious questions about those of us who have been believing that we were on a trajectory over the last 40 years and that we were going to continue to be able to build a coalition that would move in a direction that I think there was some consensus on or we thought there was consensus on. And now there's a new permission for going in a totally different direction or going backwards to my original point so I think we have

a lot of questions to ask about the kind of politician people are prepared to listen to the degree to which having kind of a coherent plan is even important you know and whether any of that can sustain itself through a party. I mean, I don't know in Ontario. I mean, obviously, the Ontario Liberals are doing a rebuild right now. I get that. But I don't know whether that's going to work in the face of, you know, Doug Ford slapping people's backs and making it up as he goes. And that's not even meant to be a derisive comment. That's actually just a reporting of what's happening. So I don't know the answer to that, but it is, I think it's very worrisome. It's worrisome for people who are going to lose supports and

they're not even benefits, but essentials that they have come to depend on because that is what's going to start to happen. It already has started to happen. Jason, are there lessons or warnings or opportunities for the Canadian Conservative Party in what just happened in the States? Yeah, all of the above. In terms of lessons, one is that a theme of economic populism resonates deeply with working class people. The most amazing thing that happened in that election was the culmination of this huge political demographic shift where high social economic status, highly educated people have become the base of the Democrat Party and working class people have become the base of the Republican Party, a similar shift that's happening in most

of the Western democracies. And that Mr. Polyev is very keen on making happen here in Canada. And I think his message is far more resonant with a lot of people who may have voted, or who might be from demographic groups that traditionally voted for the NDP. And so that's a huge opportunity. A threat is to convey that or put together a policy program, a program for government that implements that in a way that's coherent. food on the table is caused in part by unsustainably high levels of government spending, of deficit spending, of unreasonable or I should say imprudent monetary policy and fiscal policy. So implicit in that is right-sizing the federal government, a lot of significant spending reductions. How do you implement that in a way that maintains the support of the broad population while also yielding the benefits eventually of deficit reduction lower taxes and

hopefully significantly reducing inflation the devil's in the details can I can I just yes at least one person who agrees but so can I just this is why I like being on stage with Jason because because I can ask this question. So when do we move away from the conversation about the balance sheet and the politics, so those two things are different, and talk about how are we actually going to deal with climate change? We're not having winter in Toronto this year. Apparently, Ottawa is. Ottawa is, apparently.

When do we talk about the things that actually need to happen in that kind of landscape that you've laid out? All I can say, Kathleen, if you want to keep lecturing working-class Canadians on the idea that taxing them to heat their homes in the winter is going to change the weather, please carry on.

But Jason, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, fine, so we don't like that plan, then let's look at another plan. But let's have the conversation. What worries me is that we deal in these very tiny sound bites that are not meaningful, that do not have a plan beneath them, and we never actually get to the core of the issue. We actually never have a conversation about something that do not have a plan beneath them, and we never actually get to the core of the

issue. We actually never have a conversation about something that's not partisan and actually needs a solution. Can I seize on that one word? Oh, sorry, you still here, Paul? Yeah. I'll tell you, just the producer put a spread of food in the green room, I could just go back there. This seems one of those self-driving cars I hear so much about. I want to seize on one word, conversation. I could have tried to get a Conservative MP and a Liberal MP from the current parliamentary caucuses up here to talk about issues, but either they would have been told by their party offices not to show up, or they would have been preloaded with talking points to such an extent that they would have had a hard time listening to one another. Is that a problem? It's a huge problem. And if it's true

that they're being told not to share stages with people from other parties, then that's, I think that's ridiculous. Because how else do we have a public discussion about the things we need to talk about? And if we want to go down a road where we're going to be more and more polarized and more entrenched, then that's a good way to do it. I'm actually not sure it's about the public discussion. The public discussion, turn on one of these cable shows in the afternoon on the networks, and there's partisan representatives on panels shouting at each other all the time, and having discussions. I think it's much more about what happens behind the scenes. And when I came up here as a wet behind the years rookie MP in the late 90s, I think the tail end of

that era of civility, maybe I'm imagining an Arcadia that never actually existed, but I think it kind of did. And a lot of my best friends were people from across party lines. Bill Blakey, may he rest in peace, the great, one of the, sort of the last living representative of the social gospel tradition in the NDP, and I were great friends. I used to crack wise with Sven Robinson. We were on the opposite ends of the entire political spectrum, and yet we could joke around. That's gone now. And I regret it. I remember when I became premier, I went to Alberta.

I don't know what had happened there. But I show up actually as leader of the opposition. And if an elevator stopped and NDP members of the legislature saw me, they wouldn't get in the elevator. They wouldn't say hello to me walking past me in the hallway. When did that start? You know, it's hard to remember the age when John Diefenbaker used to go on holidays with John Turner.

John Turner once saved John Diefenbaker who was drowning on a beach holiday in Jamaica. These days, I think he put his head under the water. Now there's an image. What are you looking forward to or looking ahead to with apprehension in politics in 2025? Kathleen? Well, I think our previous conversation about what's happening south of the border, I think there's going to be a lot of turmoil in the next couple of years around our relationship with the states and how we're going

to manage that. We've got a lot of elections coming up. If you live in Ontario, we've got an Ontario election coming up. There's probably going to be a federal election. So I think there's going to be a lot of change. And I actually think public discussion is important. So I think that, yes, what happens behind the scenes is important too. But I think that, you know, those will be opportunities for a lot of discussion. I hope there's some substance in them. So as a watcher now, as a, you know, a recovering politician, those are the things that I think are going to be on the front pages. Jason, same question. Well, a pretty significant federal election. Really? I think so

I'm told. And it could be a bit of a political earthquake. We'll see. But in advance of that, trying to navigate perhaps the most challenging time in the most important bilateral relationship in our history, what used to be until recently the largest trading relationship in economic history. The stakes of that are pretty darn high and we better get it right. We are so lucky to have public figures of the caliber of these two to come and join us and share their wisdom and elbow each other in the corners just a bit. Jason, Kenny, Kathleen, Nguyen, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Thanks, Paul. And Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas.

Hit it, Jocelyn. We're going to get Jocelyn Gould to play one last song in this set. But before that, I have a few people I want to thank. I want to say thank you, as always, to the National Arts Centre for hosting this live recording. It is always a pleasure to be here. They are always eager to host my mad schemes, and I am always grateful for it. Special thanks to Annabelle Cloutier, Amanda Baumgarten,

Peter Keeley, Christopher Deacon, and the whole gang here at the fourth stage. I want to say thank you to WestJet for flying Jocelyn here from Winnipeg. And I want to thank our friends at Metta for helping us out tonight. The Paul Wells Show is produced by Antica. Our producer is Kevin Sexton, who's here tonight making sure everything sounds great. Our executive producers are Laura Reguer

and Stuart Cox. And I want to say thanks to all of you, my subscribers. You lift me up where I belong. None of this silliness would be possible without your support, and I never forget it. And if anyone listening is not a subscriber,

it is so easy to subscribe. Go check out paulwells.substack.com. That is it from me. Jocelyn, take it home. The years they came and went, and each season was new. But I just haven't managed to forget you. forget you. I often find you've managed to forget me. There's a reason why we went our own ways after so many days. Why can't I just get you off my mind? mind we used to have so much fun

but other times we didn't still I just haven't managed to forget you get you Thank you. There's a reason Why we went our own ways after so many days?

Why can't I just get you off my mind? We used to have so much fun And other times we fussed But I just haven't managed guitar solo applause