The Personal Finance Podcast - The Mega-Back Door Roth IRA (How to Get an Extra $43,500 in Your Roth!)

Starting point is 00:00:00 On this episode of the Personal Finance Podcast, we're going to talk about the mega backdoor Roth IRA and how you can get over 40,000 additional dollars into your Roth IRA every single year. What's up, everybody, and welcome to the Personal Finance Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew, founder of MasterMoney.com, and today on the Personal Finance Podcast, we're going to be talking about the mega backdoor Roth IRA. If you guys have any questions, make sure to hit us up on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok at Master Money Co, and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast player. You love listening to this podcast on it. If you want to help out the show, leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player.

Starting point is 00:01:05 Now, today, we are going to be diving into the mega backdoor Roth IRA. And this is going to be an action-packed episode because we're going to talk through a bunch of different. topics. In addition, we're going to be diving into how to do a traditional backdoor Roth IRA. If you are a high earner and you cannot get your money into a Roth IRA, the prerequisite for the mega backdoor Roth IRA is talking about the actual backdoor Roth IRA. So we will go through that. And in addition, we're going to talk through a bunch of differences between the 401k and the Roth IRA and how these are going to all link together allowing you to do a mega backdoor Roth IRA. So if you don't know what a bang a backdoor Roth IRA is, this is a way that you may potentially

Starting point is 00:01:45 be able to contribute an additional $43,500 into your Roth IRA. And this is by leveraging the fact that some employer 401K plans allow for after tax contributions. So the current limit right now is you can get up to $66,000 into those accounts with the after tax contribution. So this is going to be really, really cool to kind of go through this. Then you may be saying, well, how is that possible? The Roth IRA contribution limit right now is $6,500 with a mega backdoor Roth IRA. makes that possible. So we're going to be diving into this today,

Starting point is 00:02:18 and if that's something you're into, let's get into it. All right, so the first thing we're going to be talking about is obviously the Roth IRA and reasons why you want to get money into a Roth IRA. And for a lot of people, when you look at something like the Stairway to Wealth, we have the Roth IRA at the top of the list

Starting point is 00:02:34 for investing priority and for very good reasons because there are a ton of pros in my opinion to the Roth IRA. If you don't know what the Stairway to Wealth is, this is our step-by-step guide, teaching you exactly what to do with your money. That's why it's called the stairway to wealth, because it's step by step. If you're interested in checking that out, you can check it out at mastermoney.com slash stairway to wealth. We always have it linked up down below in the show notes. We have an absolutely free guide for you if you want to check that out. So the Roth IRA is one of

Starting point is 00:03:01 my favorite retirement accounts. It's where you contribute money into this account and money has already been tax, meaning it's already been taken out of your paycheck standard. Every time you get paid, your taxes are already taken out. You put that money into the Roth IRA. The Roth IRA can grow tax-free and you can pull the money out tax-free after the age of 59.5. Now, there's a bunch of different cool caveats to the Roth IRA, but this is the simplistic explanation of what a Roth IRA is. And the beautiful thing about this is that tax-free growth. Because the majority of your money, when you are compounding over a long period of time, and if you're a long-term investor, as most of you are, then the majority of your money over that time frame is going to be the,

Starting point is 00:03:44 compound growth of your money. In fact, if you maxed out your Roth IRA over the course of 30 years, you got a 10% rate of return, you would have well over a million dollars in that Roth IRA and about $850,000 of like $1.1 million would be tax-free growth, meaning the growth of your money. And so this is a very, very powerful tool to put into your tool belt, especially if you're a W-2 earner. If you're a W-2 earner, you don't have a bunch of tax advantages like business owners and other folks out there have. But a Roth IRA, a 401k and all these different things are going to allow you to have some additional tax advantages and take advantage of those going forward.

Starting point is 00:04:21 So really, really excited. It's a really, really cool account for most people to look into. Now, some of the pros of this are you get tax-free withdrawals, meaning that when you are withdrawing that money in retirement out of that account, it is completely tax-free. You don't have to worry about taxes whatsoever. You're just pulling that money out. There are no required minimum distributions,

Starting point is 00:04:40 and this is a big, big factor for me, Because at the age of 72, Uncle Sam, if you have your money in a 401k or an IRA is going to say to you, it is time to start taking money out of that account. Because when you take money out of the account, you're going to get taxed. With a Roth IRA, you do not have to worry about that. And why does that matter? Because you hear me talk about this all the time. It matters because if you are thinking about having Social Security as a part of your retirement plan, your Social Security is going to get taxed more if you have income coming in. and 401k distributions, required minimum distributions,

Starting point is 00:05:14 are taxed as income. So with a Roth IRA, your Social Security is not actually tax more in retirement. In addition, you could take those required minimum distributions and not worry about taxes whatsoever. Another great thing is you can contribute to a Roth IRA at any age. As long as you have earned income, you can contribute at any age whatsoever.

Starting point is 00:05:36 So I love that part of it. It has flexible withdrawal rules because you don't have those required minimum distributions. But in addition, when you contribute money to a Roth IRA, another pro is that you can also pull those contributions back out as long as you keep the money in the Roth IRA for at least five years. So this is another unique thing where if you get in a really sticky situation or your investment plan completely changes, then you can pull that money out within those five years.

Starting point is 00:06:01 You also have a Roth IRA is great for tax diversification. So we've talked about this in the past on how to set up your retirement accounts, but you need tax diversification in order to make sure that you are maximizing the amount of your tax implications when it comes to retirement long term. So you could think of things like a taxable brokerage account, a 401k, and a Roth IRA. You want to diversify between all three of those. There's also no taxes to your heirs with a Roth IRA. So while beneficiaries who inherit our Roth IRA will be subject to required minimum distributions when they inherit that Roth IRA unless they're the spouse, their withdrawals will generally be tax-free. You can also control. You can also control.

Starting point is 00:06:37 to a Roth IRA via the backdoor Roth IRA, which we will talk about in a second, even if you have a high income. So there are income limits to a Roth IRA, and every single year they tend to go up. And so look at your current year right now to see what your income limits are. But typically, if you make too much money, a lot of people are under the assumption that you can't contribute to a Roth IRA. And that is completely not true. That is what we're going to be talking about in this episode is you can do a backdoor Roth IRA. I do it first thing every single year. You can do that backdoor Roth IRA, and you are still able to contribute and get money into that Roth IRA. IRA. In addition, you can hedge against future tax increases. So in the future, we don't know what

Starting point is 00:07:13 taxes are going to be. You can hedge against the increase of tax by contributing money to a Roth IRA over the long term. So there is a ton of different benefits to the Roth IRA and a ton of different things that I like about the Roth IRA. Now, some of the things that you want to consider also, there are contribution limits. So right now at the time recording this, you can only contribute $6,500 per year in a Roth IRA. And if you were over the age of 50, you can contribute $7,500 per year into that Roth IRA. But it is still an incredibly powerful tool that most people need to be taking advantage of, even if you're a high earner. Even if you're a high earner, sure, you may want to go towards the pre-tax accounts first to get that tax advantage right up front this year alone, especially if

Starting point is 00:07:55 you're really in the peak of your earning years. But in addition, you still want to be looking at that Roth IRA for some tax diversification and the benefits that it provides when it comes to hitting retirement age, specifically with zero taxation when you're pulling that money out. Sure, you were already taxed on your paycheck up front, but when you pull that money out, that compounded money is going to be a great thing to have, and you're going to be really happy you did that in retirement. Now, what I want to do here is I want to dive deeper into the different type of 401K contributions because you need to understand these before we kind of talk through the mega backdoor Roth IRA

Starting point is 00:08:29 and the backdoor Roth IRA. So there are three different types of 401K contributions. So first one is the pre-tax contribution. So this is typically for your traditional 401k where you contribute money that has not been taxed yet directly out of your paycheck. It goes into your 401k and it grows. And then once you have to pull the money out, then you get taxed on that money. Now, a lot of people wait for their RMDs and they start pulling it out and they're getting taxed on their money because they're required to pull that money out. So you are getting taxed upon withdrawal. So you got to make sure that you understand this.

Starting point is 00:09:02 This is called pre-tax contributions. Then we have Roth contributions. So Roth contributions are made with after-tax money. Some people call this post-tax contributions, meaning you pay taxes on your income first, then you can contribute to your Roth IRA. We just went into the Roth IRA exactly how this works. This can be your Roth IRA or your Roth 401K, but specifically right now, we are talking about 401K contributions.

Starting point is 00:09:26 So if you didn't know, there is a such thing as a Roth 401K. We have an entire episode on it. And when we talk about this, this means that, you have the awesome power of being able to contribute a large lump sum of money every single year into the Roth, but it's a Roth 401k. So you can put $22,500 per year at the time I'm recording this into that Roth 401k, an incredibly powerful wealth building tool. So you have these Roth contributions available to you. Then you have what are called after tax contributions. Now, this is what I really want you to listen to if you are interested in the mega backdoor Roth

Starting point is 00:09:59 IRA because after tax contributions are really, really important to understand with this. So these are contributions that are made with money that's already been taxed. However, unlike Roth contributions, these after tax contributions aren't designed to provide tax-free withdrawals on earnings. They are a separate category and only some of your 401K plans are going to allow this. This is a completely separate category. So it's after-tax contributions, but it's not going into your Roth. It's going into your standard 401K.

Starting point is 00:10:32 And the reason for this is this just allows you to get more money into that 401k, then they're going to be taxed upon withdrawal. So after tax contributions in retirement, the contributions themselves are not taxed again since they were made with after tax money. However, any earnings on those contributions will be taxable unless you do what we're about to talk about here. Because the real reason to do these after tax contributions

Starting point is 00:10:53 is the significant benefit of what we know as the mega backdoor Roth IRA. So first of all, if your 401K plan allows these after tax contributions and you got to check with them, which we will talk more about here in a second. But if they allow these 401K after tax contributions, you can convert those after tax contributions to your Roth IRA and subsequently be able to enjoy tax-free growth and withdrawals over that time frame because that money was already taxed. You're going to roll it into that Roth IRA.

Starting point is 00:11:26 And the advantage here is that you can affect. effectively contribute more to a Roth account than a standard contribution limit would allow. This means that you can get a mega amount into that Roth IRA every single year. So if you have an employer that allows this and you are a high earner, most likely you are a high earner if you're doing this, then this is going to be a huge benefit for you. Because to be able to get an additional $43,500 per year into the Roth means that you are going to have a massive Roth IRA and that tax-free growth is seriously going to compound over time. So I really, really like this. I think it's a really, really cool idea for a lot of high earners.

Starting point is 00:12:02 Now, let's think about these three one more time. Okay. So the pre-tax contribution is how much is your money does not get taxed. It goes into your 401k and when you pull it out, it's going to get taxed. Your Roth contribution is money that has already been taxed on your paycheck and then it goes into the Roth, grows tax-free. You could pull the money out tax-free. After-tax contributions are ones that do not go into Roth, but they've already been taxed. So the money has already been taxed. It's not going into a Roth. It's going to a regular 401k so that money contributed goes into your 401k and the gains on that money will be taxed when you pull it out. So that is the comparison between the two. So who does the mega backdoor Roth IRA not apply to before we dive

Starting point is 00:12:40 into this? If you don't max out your 401k contributions and your IRA contributions currently, this means you know you put $22,500 per year pre-tax into your 401k and $6,500 into your IRA, then this is probably not the strategy for you. Or if you don't meet income limitations to have a deductible IRA, or if your employer does not offer after-tax 401K contributions. So you definitely want to make sure to ask your employers either plan or you can talk to HR, they can get you the contact info, or they may know off the top of their head,

Starting point is 00:13:14 if your employer actually offers these after-tax 401K contributions. Really, really important to check that out first. So that is the baseline, some of the stuff that you need to understand. Now we are going to dive into a regular backdoor IRA conversion because you've got to understand that first. And then we will get into the mega backdoor Roth IRA conversion. I remember when I needed to hire someone fast, but finding the right person quickly felt impossible. And if you've ever been there, you know how stressful this can be. That's where Indeed comes in.

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Starting point is 00:16:34 your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IG Private Wealth.com. All right, so first we're going to talk about a regular backdoor Roth IRA conversion. Now, we've had an entire episode on this, and we've talked about it a number of times on this podcast. But if you don't know, and you are a high earner and you think you cannot get money into a Roth IRA, you absolutely can. And the way to do this is with what is called a backdoor Roth IRA. I do this at the beginning of every single year. So the phase out right now for the contribution limits in 2003,

Starting point is 00:17:07 at the time recording this, for single filers are $138,000. And then you are ineligible to contribute at $153,000 to your Roth IRA. And then Mary filed jointly, the phaseout starts at $218,000. And then you are ineligible to contribute at $228,000. So this is for the year 2020, at the time recording this. If you are listening in the future, just check for Roth IRA contribution income limits for your specific year that you were in. So if you make more than the income limits and have earned income, you can still contribute to something like a non-deductible traditional IRA.

Starting point is 00:17:45 and the backdoor Roth IRA uses this as a tactic to then convert the non-deductible traditional IRA contribution into a Roth IRA account. So I'm going to briefly give you the few steps on how this works because it's a very simple process. A lot of people think this is going to be a whole complicated thing. It does not take much time at all. And now one thing I want to note is if you're going to do this and you don't have a traditional IRA open yet, I would just open it at the same place that your Roth IRA is.

Starting point is 00:18:15 located because this makes that transfer incredibly simple. So say, for example, you have your Roth IRA at Vanguard, then I would just open the traditional IRA at Vanguard as well because the transfer process is so incredibly easy. And that is just the easiest way to do it. So number one is you're going to make a non-deductible IRA contribution. So a standard IRA that you can open up anywhere. You make a contribution into that IRA. And for most people, you're going to want to max that thing out. So if you're a high earner, most people have enough money to put $6,500 into that IRA. So that's the first step. Step two, you are going to convert this money from the traditional IRA to the Roth IRA.

Starting point is 00:18:57 So this step is also pretty easy. First, you should wait at least a day or so before the money clears. Make sure the money clears in that traditional IRA before converting it. Now, the IRA has no guidelines on this in terms of how long it needs to sit there, but it's much better to show a clear step-by-step process. when you're actually converting the money over. So I just usually wait one day, then I'll convert the money over.

Starting point is 00:19:19 Because I've done this in multiple different locations. So at some firms, all you do is make that contribution and transfer it over. So say, for example, like at Vanguard, all you have to do at Vanguard is make that traditional IRA conversion to a Roth IRA. They make this so incredibly simple. You click like two or three buttons. They walk you through the process on exactly how to do it. And then all you have to do is just transfer it over.

Starting point is 00:19:41 Now, at other firms that I've worked with before, they make you fill out an additional form, then you have to sign that form. That is the more difficult process, but it's just an additional form that you have to fill out. Nobody likes filling out forms. That's why I bring that up. But there's two different ways that some brokerage firms may make you do it. Vanguard was super, super simple for me, but I've also done it out other firms and they make you fill out that form, which is also standards. So don't really worry about that if they make you fill out that form. So there's two different ways to do it. And then once you do it, just keep your records. Make sure you keep track of it. Talk to your CPA. If you have one, they can actually,

Starting point is 00:20:13 talk you through this as well and make sure that this is a good option for you, but for a lot of people, if you want to get money into that Roth IRA, you make too much money, then the backdoor Roth IRA is a great way to do this. Now, the mega backdoor Roth IRA is doing this on steroids, meaning that you can get an additional $43,500 into your Roth IRA by leveraging the fact that some employer 401K plans actually allow for after tax contributions up to the current limit of $66,000. So the current limit right now at the time recording this is $66,000. So now that you've had the refresher on the backdoor Roth IRA, how does this mega backdoor Roth IRA works?

Starting point is 00:20:51 That's the biggest question that most people are having right now. Well, first, it allows you to take advantage of the fact that after tax contributions to your 401K plan are treated just like a traditional IRA, but the process is slightly different. Or, and one big thing for a lot of people is that you want to be checking, obviously, if you can do these after tax contributions, but if you are self-employed and you have a solo 401K, you can actually set up your own solo 401K to allow you to be able to do this.

Starting point is 00:21:19 So self-employed folks out there, solo 401K will actually allow you to put this together and you can set up this plan. So this is amazing for small business owners out there. So in order to do this mega backdoor Roth IRA, your 401K plan needs to offer two things. The after-tax contributions above and beyond the $22,500 pre-concounter, contribution limits and in-service distributions or non-hardship withdrawals. It needs at least those two things in order to make this happen. If it doesn't have the non-hardship in-service withdrawals, you might still be able to accomplish the same thing if you're leaving your company soon.

Starting point is 00:21:55 That gets a little more murky, but you want to make sure that you are looking at this and making sure you have this down. The after-tax contributions are the very biggest part. And so making sure that they offer those after-tax contributions is going to be really, really powerful. So here is the step-by-step guide on exactly how to do it. So number one is you need to maximize your after-tax 401K contributions. So you need to figure out how much you're actually allowed to contribute to maximize your after-tax 401K contributions. This means understanding your employer's plan and then making those additional contributions. Now, this can be somewhat challenging. And the reason why this can be challenging is a lot of times if you think about it, when you start

Starting point is 00:22:33 contributing to your 401K, they want you to make a contribution as a percentage of of your paycheck. So sometimes you have to do a little math to make this work if that is how your company works. So if you have to do that, you want to make sure that these contributions are after tax, not Roth 401K contributions. They have to be after tax contributions. You cannot do this in a Roth 401k. It has to be those after tax contributions. So once you've maxed out that after tax contribution, you can now withdraw a portion of that Roth IRA if your employer allows in-service non-hardship withdrawals. Otherwise, you need to wait until termination and then you can roll over the after tax portion into your Roth IRA. But the downside of waiting is that any growth from after

Starting point is 00:23:17 tax contributions becomes part of the pre-tax balance, unlike Roth dollars. So if you have to wait, you're going to have pay taxes on some of the growth of that money while you're waiting, especially if you have those dollars invested, which is the downside to having to wait. Whereas if they allow you to have the in-service non-hardship withdrawals and you can just transfer that money over, then it is much, much easier. So you can see this becomes a more complicated process if you don't have both of those two items. There are a good portion of employer plans out there

Starting point is 00:23:47 who actually allow both things. So outside of that, the process is almost the exact same thing as doing a regular Roth IRA, but you have to have those two items buttoned up before you go ahead and do this. So it really does depend on your employer's plan, but I thought a lot of you need to know about this if you're not utilizing it already

Starting point is 00:24:05 because we have a lot of high earners who listen to this show and of those high earners, a lot of them are trying to find additional ways to get money into some of these attacks-advantage accounts, and this is one fantastic way to do this. And in addition, if you're a solopreneur or you're someone with a solo 401K, that is a great option that's going to allow you to set that plan up

Starting point is 00:24:24 exactly how you want. And if you need help setting that plan up, make sure you call that provider or that brokerage and say, hey, I want to set this up where in addition, I can do a megabackdoor Roth IRA, and that way they will kind of walk you through the steps, make sure that you have that thing set up correctly so that each and every single year, you can make these conversions because that is a really powerful thing as a business owner who

Starting point is 00:24:44 may not get 401K matches, but if you can take advantage of some of this stuff, then really you can have some really cool stuff happening as you go about and make this happen. So this is one of my favorite strategies for people who have those after-tax contributions that they are allowed to take in your 401k because it will compound so much faster with this amount of money. In fact, I want to show you, just as an example, I want to show you exactly how much this money can compound if you actually maxed this thing out where you got $66,000 per year into something. I really want to show you how this can happen, especially if you can get an additional $43,500 per year into your Roth IRA. So let's do the math next. All right, so real quick, I just wanted to show you the math on how powerful this can be

Starting point is 00:25:28 if you can actually get all these aftertax contributions into your Roth IRA and you can compound it for a long period of time. So obviously every situation is going to be different, and I'm going to compound this thing over the course of 30 years to show you the difference. But if you don't have that amount of time, a lot of people are earning a lot more money in their 30s and their 40s, and so maybe you don't have 30 years before you are planning on retiring. But this is just a really cool example of how powerful this can be. So say, for example, after the course of 30 years, you got an 8% rate of return, and you did that additional $43,500 per year. You got that into your Roth IRA. And so you got an percent return annually. Here's how powerful this can be. Your total additional contributions into

Starting point is 00:26:09 Roth IRA will be $1,305,000. So for those total contributions, it'd be $1.3 million, essentially, if you're rounding down. And your imbalance would be $5,105,995 just by doing this mega backdoor Roth IRA. The amazing thing is the amount that your money grew from your initial contributions was an additional $3,800,000. What this means here, this is why this is so powerful. What this means is that you are getting $3.8 million in this account completely tax free. This is why this strategy is so powerful and why you want to get more dollars in your Roth if you can, if it makes sense for you right now. You want to talk to your CPA, make sure it makes sense for you.

Starting point is 00:26:57 but if it does make sense for you, that tax-free growth is undeniable, that additional $3.8 million that your money just earned for you without you having to lift a finger and set, except for just transferring that money over is absolutely incredible. Now, let's bump this down to 15 years, see what would happen. Maybe you only have 15 years before retirement and you want to contribute for another 15 years. So even over the course of 15 years, if you do this in half the time, you'd have an additional $1.2 million in that Roth IRA. and you'd have $571,000 of that would be completely tax-free.

Starting point is 00:27:32 So this is absolutely amazing. I want to go back to 30 years, and I want to do this with, let's just say we do it with a 10% rate of return. A lot of people don't like when I do 10% rate of return. We're going to do it for fun. You would have $7.4 million with a 10% rate of return. You would have contributed $1.3 million.

Starting point is 00:27:48 And guess how much money you would have completely tax-free? $6.1 million. This is how powerful it can be if you get money into that Roth IRA, especially in these large amounts, because you're going to have a lot of tax-free money in that account if you do that. This is why I love the Roth IRA.

Starting point is 00:28:09 Another amazing reason why it's so fun to contribute to a Roth IRA, watch that money compound over time because your initial contributions are going to be the minority in that account, especially if you have a long time frame where you're compounding of that time frame. This is what money is meant to do. Money is a tool to allow you to achieve freedom and using accounts like this is going to allow you to achieve freedom so much faster.

Starting point is 00:28:31 And in addition, you're going to have larger accounts because you know this stuff. Listen, I want to thank you guys for listening to this episode. I truly appreciate each and every single one of you. And thank you for investing in yourself because that is exactly what you're doing when you listen to this podcast is you are investing in yourself. And there's no better investment than that is investing in yourself. I truly appreciate each and every single one of you listening to this episode. And we will see you on the next episode. in lasagna, medium power, 15 minutes.

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The Personal Finance Podcast - The Mega-Back Door Roth IRA (How to Get an Extra $43,500 in Your Roth!)

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