The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1041: Waco, Texas - April 19, 1993 w/ David Thibodeau

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

67 MinutesPG-13David Thibodeau is an author, musician, and one of nine who survived the fire at the Branch Davidian home in Waco, Texas, in 1993. David joins Pete to talk about the day the Feds drove tanks into the Branch Davidian house and the ensuing fire.David's PayPal Address - [e-mail]'s BookDavid on FaceBookVIP Summit 3-Truth To Freedom - Autonomy w/ Richard GroveSupport Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's Substack Pete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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It's in Seoul, Boe Concept and Rosh Bu Bois. The Dream Kitchen, check out at Cube Kitchens. Beacon South Quarter, Dublin, where the smart shoppers go. Two hours free parking, just off the M50, exit 13. It's a Black Friday secret. Keep it to yourself. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design.

They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plug-in hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers. Coopera. Design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services

Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. If you want to support the show and get the episodes early and add free, head on over to freemamandbeonthewall.com forward slash support. There's a few ways you can support me there. One, there's a direct link to my website. Two, there's subscribe star. Three, there's Patreon. Four, there's substack. And now I've introduced Gumroad, because I know that a lot of our guys

are on Gumroad and they are against censorship. So if you head over to Gumroad, and you subscribe through there, you'll get the episodes early and ad-free, and you'll get an invite into the Telegram group. So I really appreciate all of the support everyone's giving me, and I hope to expand the show even more than it already has. Thank you so much. I want to welcome everyone back to the Picanueno show, returning, and it's been a few years. How are you doing, Mr. Tibdo? You're very well, thank. Well, I asked you to join me today because I'm releasing this on April 19th, and I'm sure a day you'll never forget 31 years ago, April 19, 1993.

And I just wanted you to recount the events of that day. It was the 51st day of you being locked up inside Mount Caramel by the government. and I guess it was the day they decided to come in. So let's start with this. Did you get any sleep the night before? Yeah, a little bit. You know, it is certainly a date which will live in infamy, April 19. And, you know, we do a memorial there, not at Mount Carmel, but in Waco every year.

And, you know, this year is no exception. So it is an unforgettable date for sure. when you're going through you know a siege type situation like that and they're playing the loud music you know and they're they have the lights on on you and on the building and they're trying to sleep deprive you basically

is what they're trying to do you know really what happens is if you get tired enough you just put in some cotton swabs in your ear or some kind of noise cancelling thing and you know you'll sleep

your body will force you to. But it's not exactly the most restful sleep on the face of the earth, certainly. And, you know, of course they did that night after night, after night, after night, through the course of the majority of the siege. Yeah, before we start getting into exactly, yeah, how the day, how it started, everything started. Yeah, you always go down to Waco. I know you go down to Waco a couple times a year, but you always go down for the memorial. and I'm going to set up and have a link on my website

and also associated with a preview of this episode for your PayPal so that that will go towards Memorial, that'll go towards everything that is happening down there, help with your travel a little bit. And just so that you can, I know a lot of people go down there on the 19th and, you know, help you remember. Because, yeah, this is definitely one of those situations

where we, don't want to forget what happened on that day. That's why I asked you to come on today, even though I know you don't really try, you try not to do too many interviews about it anymore. So, yeah, thank you. And hopefully we can get some people to go to that link. And I'll mention it in a separate little audio

that I'll tack on to the beginning of this and help out with everything that goes down there. Because obviously you're not getting money from, you're not getting money from the government to keep the keep the memory alive. So it's going to be up to us who remember this date. Certainly not. And, you know, the memorials are really for the survivors and the people. There's, we got a really core group of what I would, what I would call friends, people that have just been supporters, you know, for the past 31 years is going to be the 31st memorial.

And you meet, you know, some of the best people in the face of the earth through something. like this because, you know, they're people that just don't believe the media bias and they want to get to know the people instead of just judging from what everyone else and what the media has said about who the divinians were and who the people that were there, you know, with David and had gone through the experience. There's a lot of preconceived ideas about the people. But once you get to know them, you know, we have solid people that have been friends of ours for the last 31 years through all of this. And they come back year after year. They keep in touch. They have a group. There's Kevin Jones, one of the kids that came out of the building during the siege. He was, I don't know, 10, 12, and 13 at the time. He started a Facebook group, Branch of Indian Survivors. And it's just been, you know, it's just an amazing resource of really good people and a really fascinating community. And, you know, the memorials are for them.

You know, we remember everyone. We do, there's different survivors will come and speak. We have some theologians that come and speak and give talks. And then we do these at right around noon, 12-06, to be exact, when the fire began, we have, we do a slideshow presentation. And, you know, you could see each individual. We talk about each individual that perished in the fire. And that perished on February 28th when the ATF first came in.

And there was the gun battle. So we just, you know, we get to kind of see everyone and remember everyone. And it's wonderful being able to see everybody again. You know, different people come on different years. It's hard to get everyone that has survived this thing together. But we see quite a few, and it's been very moving, very moving experiences. And just for those that can't be in Waco, I am going to have a Zoom link available where if you want to attend the memorial via Zoom,

you can certainly do that. The only place you could really get that is on my Facebook page. I just looked at David Tibuto on Facebook, and you'll see me come up with a gray beard. So that's asked to join, and I'll, I will, we don't advertise the Zoom link because of the Zoom bombing we're worried about. but if you send me a message on messenger or I will send you the link personally.

Great. All right. Well, we'll definitely get that going. I'll link to all of that. So, all right. That morning, when did it become evident that that was the day that they were going to, they were coming in? Yeah, my recollection was that the phone started ringing very early, 6 a.m. or so.

It was very early. And I know at one point, and this is where the memory gets a little faded. It's probably more accurate in my book than I can remember now 31 years. But I know that I was on the phone of the FBI at one point. And Jamie Conceo, I think was on the phone with him at one point as well. And we were asking, they were saying to get Steve Schneider. And I said, Steve sleeping, so, you know, no luck. And they said, you need to wake him up.

we need to speak to them right away. And as he's saying this, I'm hearing high-pitched squealing, squeaking sound, and that's the sound of tanks and tank treads as they run. It's making a very distinct sound that once you hear Sebel and you're around it, you don't really forget that sound. But the tanks were coming down the hill, and they started to surround the building.

So I won't get Steve up. And Steve talked to the FBI guys for just a couple seconds. And then he yelled for everyone to get their gas masks. He said, they're coming in. Everyone will get their gas masks. And then we could hear the speaker system. The speaker system that was, Byron Sage was on there. And they were basically just repeating the same thing.

They were saying that the siege is over. We are all under arrest to come out with our hands up. And that they will be putting in what they said was non-lethal tear gas into the building. And then we'll start shooting the gas to the gas. canisters and it'll make the environment un inhabitable and you must leave now and uh you know that's it they just they just kept repeating that message over and over and it was almost like there was a mismess message there because they're saying this will get into your clothes the gas will get into the environment making it uninhabitable but you can come back after you know you go through

the proper legal system and you know i just remember thinking oh what's going to make everything uninhabitable and it's going to destroy all of our property, but yet we can come back. And it was just another one of those things that the FBI did to us that just didn't make any sense. Like, for example, saying everyone come out, we want you to come out and someone would exit the building and they throw a flashbang grenade at them. You know, it was things like this. There are these subtle ways the government used to control that situation and more specifically controlled how a, Americans viewed what was happening that was totally different from what was actually going on in the inside or what they were telling us. Like they would often tell us one thing and then do the direct opposite.

I've said this many times, but throughout the course of the siege, they often said that they will not bring any tanks or equipment onto the property. And literally the day after they said that, they started destroying sheds on the outskirts of the property. the tank started coming onto the property. And that happened, just considered that. Then we would complain about that. Then they'd be like, oh, we can't, we have no control over what the commanders do. So the negotiators are telling us one thing. And the commanders are doing the direct opposite and what the negotiators are saying.

All the way through, this caused an incredible mistrust. So we just didn't believe anything they had to say. And within like week one, they didn't trust or believe us. We certainly didn't trust or believe them. And, you know, they were telling us, and we know, we have all kinds of audio around this subject. But I always bring up to helicopters because the original diversionary attack at the ATF had was the helicopters at the back of the building. And they claim, and all the agents on the ground claim that the helicopters were not close enough to the building to fire. yet there's testimony of people that were at Mount Carmel.

Some of the older, Victoria Hollingsworth testified that she saw the helicopters near the window, was in by the window. Kevin Whitecliffe was yelling after the ceasefire, Kevin, I talked to him and he was shaken, visibly shaking, and he was yelling and screaming at me that the helicopters came in the back of the building and they started firing first. And I said, Kevin, from where I was, I could hear the shots come from the front of the building. And it sounded to me like the firefight started at the front of the building near the front door. And he said, no, the helicopters came in firing and he was yelling and he was just, he was angry.

And he was shaking and he was kind of in shock. But it's like, you know, the way he told me that he was at the back of the building. So depending on where you were, I think that obviously you saw a different. different things and your perspective of what actually happened can I think be could radically change depending on where you were in the building when all this is going on and this is on the first day I'm talking about but I'm bringing it up for a specific reason so to this day we have a lot of documentaries coming out that are for ATF were interviewed some of the agents on the ground and they all say that the helicopters were close enough to the building of the fire and I just don't

understand how that's possible when you know there's even a video of the helicopter flying near the tower and then you see like a figure pop up out of the tower and and then go back down and that was peter jent and there's a brief video of him being shot it's a little grady but you could definitely see something happening there um you know i personally saw uh evidence through uh one of the um i'm trying to say one of the plastic water-ditch water tanks that were in front of Winston Blake's window. You know, there's a trajectory of a bullet coming from the air into the water tank. And water was actually pouring into Winston Blake's room from a bullet hole that entered

and entered an exit at the water tank right on the side where it curves. But, you know, I personally saw that. And I looked at trajectory and the only place that could have been shot from was from the air. So I never doubted that the helicopters fired. And that's just an important point because, you know, the government wants to deny it all they can, but they claim that the helicopters were used as a diversionary tactic. So if the helicopters were to fire, you know, there's a whole bunch of legalities that have to be considered in an act like that. And I almost wonder if that could have been proven if the whole thing had it been in court could have been maybe thrown out

or a lot of the information. I just don't know because, you know, David didn't come out after day three. And we had what we had, the 51-day siege. But to me, that's just something that is just so important to talk about, you know, consistently. And I'm going to tell you, man, it's powerful when you see an interview with, like,

seven or eight different ATF agents and they all claim the helicopters weren't firing. I just don't know how they can say that because my perception and everyone I talk to and the evidence that I saw personally, bullet holes in the ceiling that looked like helicopters were shooting into the building, people on the inside seeing the helicopters really close to the building. It just bothers me to this day. It seems to be a consistent lie. And there's that there's a famous audio of one of the negotiators talking to David and David getting very angry saying, are you going to tell me those helicopters weren't. firing at the building, they absolutely were. You know, he's very angry.

And it's just like everybody that was in there knew that that happened. So again, that's something that the government just has denied all the way around. And it makes me angry. It makes anyone who went to the experience angry because he just, you know, they're lying about it. Yeah, it continued all the way through. Anybody who's seen Rules of Engagement knows that, you know, famously Chuck Schumer standing up there basically saying, I don't want to hear witness testimony. We all know what happened there. And it was, it was decided. They decided what the truth was going to be long

before, long before an investigation took place. So, and that's kind of what they do, right? Yeah. They have to, they have to keep in control of the narrative or, you know, God forbid, you get people that were actually there, give their testimony. Oh, my God. It might change your world. you on a few things. Knowing the stubbornness of some of these people, I don't think it would, but nonetheless. It would help people to make up their mind by having all the information. You know, like there have been a few documents,

and I don't want to get too sidetracked, Peter, but there have been a few documentaries that have come out, you know, in the last few years. And there's so much information they leave out. And, you know, they always have to have, it just always has to be, sensationalized. But it's like, you know,

there's so much more information that gets lost sight of. When you put all the little facts together, it's quite frightening how much of the narrative that government has controlled through the media. That day, the tanks start piercing the building.

What's the reaction inside at that point? Okay, yeah, that was a little bit later. So when they first, yeah, go ahead. No, I'll explain it. They had, they started shooting in ferret rounds, and those, you know, like a little 40-millimeter rounds, little, I say 40-millimeter rounds that are, they will barricade breaking the, will go through sheet rock and whatnot. They were shooting these in, and that was dispersing CS Gas.

So, and I'm much older now. I can't remember the exact number, but it was the ferret rounds. shot in and they ran out. And they ran out kind of early. And when they ran out, hold on. When they ran out, they ordered more.

I guess they found out they couldn't get them and they changed their plan. And they started taking these, these drums of CS gas and putting them on the tanks through a hose. So the tanks would come in and start destroying the building. And then as the tanks would go into the building, they would start spraying the CS gas that way.

And so what they did is strategic places throughout the building, the tanks would come in and create a huge hole and start spraying the CS gas. They even had like a big crane arm where the tech would come in and pierce the second story. And if you look at some of the places where the holes were made, those holes created an oxygen flow system. that allowed the building, you know, once it started, once it was, once the fire began, it spread the flame throughout the building very, very quickly. You know, we actually had some fire marshals that were going to testify.

They weren't allowed to testify, but they were going to testify. And you could see this on the, you mentioned the documented rules of engagement, where the fire was like a pot, the building was like a pot-belly stove because of all the origins of oxygen they were introducing by making these holes. And so, you know, that would cause the oxygen of flow through the system and make the building go up very quickly. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive. By design. They move you.

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Terms and conditions apply Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland Ready for huge savings We'll mark your calendars from November 28th to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back We're talking thousands of your favourite Lidl items all reduced to clear.

From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. Did you know, those Black Friday deals everyone's talking about? They're right here at Beacon South Quarter. That designer's sofa you've been wanting? It's in Seoul, Boe Concept and Rosh Bu Bois.

The Dream Kitchen? Check out at Cube Kitchen. Beacon South Quarter Dublin, where the smart shoppers go. Two hours free parking, just off the M50, exit 13. It's a Black Friday secret. Keep it to yourself. Well, in Rules of Engagement also, I wanted to get this out of the way soon, there's audio taken from the inside of the building

where it's obvious that Molotov cocktails are being made. And so much was made of that as to, Oh, see, they had gasoline. They were going to set themselves on fire. And, you know, in that kind of argument, when it sounded to me like whoever was making those Molotov cocktails, for better or for worse, was planning on fighting back instead of, you know, it would be a lot easier if you were planning on burning the place down to just start splashing gasoline all over the walls and then fuel all over the walls and then light it on fire.

Sure. Every room had kerosene fuel because of the lanterns. There was no electricity, so we had lanterns in the rooms for light at night. Every room did have that. I can attest that. I saw that. Now, I was in the chapel area, so I can't attest to what happened in the back of the building or the side of the building. But the audio that you're talking about, I believe happened in the cafeteria area.

And there were people that were back there, and they wanted to fight the tanks that were coming in. Because what people couldn't see is the gymnasium area that was behind the chapel area where I was. The tanks were coming in and leveling it to the ground. Literally, they leveled the entire gym. They would come in and destroy whole sections of the gymnasium until it collapsed. So if you were back there, you were over by the cafeteria, you saw this happening. You know, obviously you would be worried about the next step is then coming into where you were and running you over. and whatnot. So again, I don't know exactly what happened back there on that side of the building,

but I have heard those tapes that I've heard testimony from others that were back there that survived that some people were making the Molotov cocktails. And I believe someone even said, no, throw it outside, don't throw it inside. So I think that people were planning to combat the tank. But the only problem with that is that there's no. fire that was introduced anywhere in the building until 12-06. So, and the tank started coming in around. So apparently, even if people were making them and planting, nobody threw them at the tanks, because you would have seen flame a lot earlier than that.

And we do have the infrared video, you know, and again, this is the FBI, is control of the infrared video. And you see from the top, from, you know, from like two miles up there's a plane that's flying. as a infrared video, you don't see anything like that. Right before the fire, you do see what looked like to be explosions, one at the back of the building in that gymnasium area that I'm talking about. You do see two big explosions at that point, and that's before the fire began, too, I believe, just before.

That's the very back of the building. But, yes, as far as the maltoles are conserved, I believe that people were talking about it from the audio case, but I don't think any of that was actually utilized. So a lot is made of the fact that CS gas is not flammable yet from my research on it is that the propellant that they used to inject it into the building was. Is that your understanding? Well, the propellant was methylene chloride.

And so, you know, that is an ingredient that's used in a paint thinner, things like that. And so I believe that methylene chloride is flammable. But the other thing that people don't realize about CS gas, it's a powder. So, you know, in other words, it's not just the gas that dissipates. What it dissipates, it's a little powder. So I had a black leather jacket. And I saw a little white, powder spots all over my black leather jacket during the morning as the CS gas was coming in.

And, you know, in the past, the analogy that I've made is if you're a farmer, know anything about farming and you have a grain silo, it's the subatomic particles that are floating through the air that if there's a flame that is introduced to that, it can ignite. causing a big, like, billowy fire flash, if you will. So it's the subatomic particles of powder that somehow it can make a chemical reaction to have that kind of explosion. But more importantly, it's the wind. There was 33 mile an hour winds that day. And if you, like, say you open a hole in the building to decide where the wind's blowing, that wind is going to blow through what I believe it blew through the second story.

and so when there was a flame up there it shot the flame down the course of the building. So these are all, you know, these are all things that when you add them up, they look pretty suspect. You know, and must not forget the flashbank, the power technique devices that were found on scene. So for I think it was three years, the government claimed that there was no power techniques used in that building, none. and then Mike McMill went into the evidence locker in Austin and found that there were these silencers. They were labeled the silencers, but when he looked into it,

they were actually power-technic devices that had been used and were recovered from the debris of Mount Carmel. Now, the government claims that all the power-technic devices were used in the underground shelter outside of the building. None were used in the building. Well, listen, how do we really know where they were recovered from

if they lied about using them at all? For three years, they said, no power technology used. Then, once this was discovered, they'd say, oh, we did use pirate technique devices, but we used it outside in the underground shelter. So the story changes. They still expect to gain, have credibility by saying that these pyrotechnics devices were all found over here or not found anywhere near the building.

It just gets to the point, man. With the lines, just get ridiculous and, you know, again, it's just hard to take. really, you know, when you see no justice, when you have your own civil case against the government and they put it in an area where Judge Walter Smith is allowed to subside over that, the same judge that gave some of my friends 40 years on a weapons violation the jury thought was thrown out. You know, the head jury four woman, Sarah Bain, had written Paul Fada personally and said, had we known, and she said this publicly several times, had we known that the government, that Judge Smith was going to give them 20 years, we would have acquitted everybody on all charges.

We wanted them to get time served. We didn't want anybody to do further time over this. That's the head jury forewoman saying that. So once the jury was done and gave their verdict, the judge imposed sentencing and was able to give them an insane amount of time for what he said was a crime, even though the jury had thrown it out. The details of even the trials are just sickening to me. And the fact that a court can be so controlled, it's like, you know, you think you go to court,

you think that you're allowed to have your day in court, right? And you can present whatever evidence. But if you have a judge that says, no, you can't present that piece of evidence or you can't present that piece of evidence, or I refuse to let that professional witness testify or that witness can't testify. Oh, you know, you have a fire marshal that wants to testify? I don't think so.

You have an infrared expert that wants to testify. I'm not going to allow that. Well, you can't really put on a fair case now, can you, whatsoever? And this is how the government can control, you know, the court system and allow innocent people to go to jail. And we see it over and over and over. you hear of cases of innocent people that through DNA evidence that have come out that they're being exonerated, thank God. But, you know, innocent people shouldn't be thrown in jail in the first place.

They should have a right to their fair trial. They should be able to present whatever evidence they have in their defense. And to have a judge and professionals and PhDs come in and deny that right to people, it's absolutely sickening, man. It's just something that has to change in this country. I'm just glad that there are people out there that are getting people out of jail that have been in jail for many years falsely accused. I'm very passionate about this. Even Kim Kardashian has had a hand in getting many innocent people that have been in prison for long periods of time out of jail. I think that's just a very, very worthy cause.

And I think the only reason they didn't charge you was because they said, that there was no, they had no evidence that you had ever actually carried a firearm or a rifle inside the, uh, inside the building during the siege. Yeah. Well, I, they, they just tell me as a material witness. They didn't really tell me why. Um, you know, one of the things that was, that was, and I had an interesting experience many years later. Um, I was at a, uh, cocktail party in, in Waco. So, Johnson, I can't remember his first name. One of the assistant DAs was there, Mr. Johnson. We had a little conversation.

He said, do you ever wonder why you weren't dieted? And I said, well, some people say it was my attorney because he knew something about Judge Walter Smith. Some people said it was because my mother was there and was talking with a lot of different media people, and there was that kind of connection, a family connection thing. and he said, well, I'll tell you why. He said, I chose to not indict you. And I, because you reminded me of, you came out, you had the long hair and you look like a very

peaceful person. I said, we're never going to get an indictment on this guy. And he told me that he reminded me of his brother and that he just didn't think that they would be able to get an indictment on me. So, you know, I think that they wanted to, they wanted every male, young male that was in that building to be indicted. But others weren't, too. Like Oliver Geyarchus was sent back to Australia.

So there were some of the, you know, younger people and males who were released. I just, I walked out of, I didn't have any of this in my head. I walked out of that building just thinking that, you know, it's in God's hand. If I go to jail for the rest of my life or, you know, whatever. And I anticipated anything with these people. You know, they had lied so much. I anticipated having a very terrible experience when I walked out of that building. But bottom line is, I didn't, I even thought I was going to be shot exiting the building.

The fact that I wasn't shot that we weren't shot when we exit that building was stunning to me. I absolutely believe that we were going to be shot. But at the point where the fire was disinging the side of my face, I just would rather have been shot than to a burn to death. And that was really my thinking exiting the building. And when I wasn't shot, my mind went to whatever you want, whatever path you choose for me got, I will take. So if I go to jail for the rest of my life or they shoot me or I meet with an accident in jail, whatever happens, I'm in your hands. And so I don't think there was anyone that was more surprised that I wasn't in a lot. indicted. Now, the funny thing, Peter, is who, especially early on, that worked in,

I don't want to say it worked against me. I'm the happiest person. I'm the luckiest guy in the face of the earth. Do not have gone to jail. I don't believe that I belonged in jail. I don't think I would do very well there. But, you know, the point is I was, I was absolutely ready. And then it went far better than I ever thought it would. Not for some of my friends, and that was a very hard, hard thing to deal with. You know, you have Survivor's guilt. You have all that stuff that comes with that. But, you know, I was prepared to do God's bidding at that point in my life.

I wanted to talk about when the fire starts, because, you know, to just look at all the different options and everything, if a tank was coming through a wall and someone shot at it and it caused a spark, you know, whether somebody flip the lighter, whether somebody, you know, turn the stove on. Basically, what it comes down to is that the fire doesn't happen unless all of this, the propellant and everything is basically filling up in there because it doesn't, I mean, there's no evidence, there's no real evidence other than people saying, oh, they started the fire, they were a suicide cult, they set themselves on fire. There's no evidence that there was going to be a fire that day, unless, other than tanks going through the wall and

chemicals, propellants being shot in and filling up. I think the last time I talked to you, you said that they used on order of the CS gas, which would have included the propellant as well, two days' worth in the span of like four hours or six hours. Yeah, that's correct. They changed their plan. Their plan was to have the CS gas last, for a couple days, 48 hours. And their claim is that people inside started shooting with the tanks. Now, I deny that claim because I all morning did not hear anybody fired the tanks. And I was, the reason I, you know what a gunshot sounds like, even in the building like that.

I have to say, well, the tanks were coming in the back. It is possible that were some shots in the back of the building. that maybe I didn't hear. But I have to acknowledge that as a possibility, Peter. But the truth is, I didn't hear anybody shoot at the tags. And I remember I was overwhelmed with joy that people weren't shooting at the tax because, you know, whatever firearm or anyone had, it wasn't going to penetrate a tag.

So, you know, that would have been absolutely worthless. But again, the focus for the people inside. was them to see our resolve that we're not coming out until David finishes his manuscript now. You can take that for what it is. But everybody believed in the seven seals. We know. We had had studies every day for some people for 10 years. I was only there for a year, right?

Off and on for like almost two years, but I was there solidly on the property living in the building for only a year. But Bible study was a huge part of the day. and it was a daily occurrence. The study of the scripture and understanding what is to happen in the latter days was something that everyone took very seriously. And that's no matter what people think of the Bible today. And believe me, I understand every angle of scripture and anti-scripture and the historical ramifications and the archaeological ramifications of scripture.

But if you have a hard, poor group of people that believe in it, to really truly believe in it, they're not going to come out for anyone. They believe that the kingdom of God is nigh, and that is going to be set up. It could be set up any minute. This could be the conduit for it right here,

is what's happening in Mount Carmel. And see, the government understood this, and they knew this, right? And so there's just, you know, if you put your faith in God, you don't fear, man. And that's where everybody was there. everybody was on board.

Everyone kind of had the same, you know, vision of things. So that's, the reason I'm taking my time to try to describe this is because that feeling, and for me, it was feeling that people weren't shooting into tanks, that that would show something to the FBI. It would prove that a resolve was, was undeniable, and that we're, were going to wake this out until they either A ran over us with their tanks or backed up and let David finish his manuscript. He had an agreement with the FBI. The first seal was finished the day before on April 18th.

He was starting the second seal on April 19th that very day that they came in and chose just to totally ignore that agreement. So, you know, this is a very long answer to basically say that I will stand by since the day. of my death that people were not firing at the tanks. So it was around 10, 30, 11, when the media was saying, and I remember I had a radio, so I was listening to everything that was coming out through the ABC, NBC, etc. They said that the Devidian compound is being, you know, that they're putting tear gas into the building, asking everyone to come out.

And the government, they had received 80 to 200 gunshots against their CEVs, which is a tank, by the way. And due to the credit of the FBI, they have not fired back in the dividends. You see, when that was said, that was the most powerful experience in my life. Because when that was said, any hope that I had in my person, and hope is everything when you're in a situation that is life or death, you always have hoped that somehow you'll get out of it. That's the moment I lost hope.

I knew my community was marked for death. and that nobody was going to survive. I believe nobody was going to come out of that building at that point because I knew that they were setting the public up for a complete massacre. And their justification is that the people inside were firing at us, so what did you want us to do? That would have been their justification. But again, Peter, and I don't care what anyone thinks or says about me.

This is between me and God. And if I'm going to tell your audience or any audience, And at this point, I have told millions of people my story. And I'm not going to look those millions of people in the eye and light of them. It's just not going to happen. I will say that everybody has a different perception. And somebody who is in a different area in the building may have seen something that I didn't see, that would shake my worldview, certainly.

But until they tell me that and look me in the eye, that's something I'm just not going to believe. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range for Mentor, Leon and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers.

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Come see for yourself. The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. So let's, can we fast forward to when the fire starts and, you know, you better, I'm quite long-winded today for some reason. Yeah, let's fast forward to when the fire starts. What's the reaction? What, I'm sure somebody came up with a plan on the fly.

So what was being spoken at that time? Here's, here's exactly what I heard. I was in the cafeteria area. I'm sorry. I was sent to the chap. I was going to get. I was in the chapel area. There was no way to get to the cafeteria area.

Everything had been blocked. When the tanks came through, they had destroyed the hallway. So there was so much debris. You couldn't go down. You couldn't get to the cafeteria. It was impossible from the chapel from where I was. But it was around 12-ish. I can't remember exactly.

Somebody yelled from upstairs. I could hear it from upstairs. And I think Derek Lovelock said the same thing. And there was another of the Survivor's. that was in there with me. Maybe Clive Doyle said the same thing, that we could hear someone yelling upstairs. There's a fire.

There's a fire up here. That's exactly what they said. There is a fire up here. And so when I heard that, I wanted to make sure that the kids and Serrelli was put in the underground bus. I couldn't get down the hallway. So I tried, I went into the foyer.

There was another stairwell that led to the second story. That had been destroyed by the tanks. when the tanks came into the front door. So there was no getting up that staircase, right? Behind the chapel, there was a hallway. And in that hallway, there was a ladder that led up to the second-story area. It led up to the office space where, you know, you see the ATF guy on the first day trying to break into that window. And then he goes to the cell.

It's that office. So I went in there, and then I got to where there was a car. Causeway, a walkway that led over the chapel to the second story hall, right? Excuse me. So I walked through that causeway. There was a blanket covering the doorway to the second story hall I had. I went to open the blanket. And as I did, a big gust of smoke billowed in at me.

And I had to back up. And I had to put the blanket back so, you know, no more smoke would come. And I waited that smoke to dissipate. And I opened it again. And I was going to try to get in a. the hallway, to head down the second story to see if I could get to the cafeteria that way, right? And as soon as I opened the blanket the second time, a wall of flame shot down the hallway. It was incredibly loud. And it just, it just shot down the hallway. It was in front of me,

all I saw was fire. So I just put, I put the blanket back and I went back the way I came. and by the time I got downstairs, there was already smoke everywhere, and everyone was kind of culminating in that hallway that was between the chapel and where the gymnasium was. And there was a window there, and that window had been destroyed by the tank. It's one of the places where the tanks had come in and taking it all out. So there was this huge hole in the wall. And I remember a lot of people, like some people were getting ready to go out and it was said that, you know, they're probably going to shoot us.

So those people didn't go out. And then the wall started to catch fire. And when that did, I was actually before that story, I was leaning against the wall. And next to me was Wayne Martin. And next to him was Wayne Martin, Jr. Okay. Wayne Martin had his gas mask on and I could see the smoke come in at Wayne and it started to cover Wayne. He took his gas mask off and he was leaning against the the wall with his back and he just kind of slid down onto his feet. He slid down the wall. At that point, the smoke totally engulfed his body and I could not see Wayne anymore. And I didn't hear anything. I just couldn't see him and that's when the wall caught fire and I could. hear my hair singeing. And I looked up and I saw

Jamie Casillo and Derek Lovelock going out of the hole with the tank it made. And I just followed out. Like I said, I would much rather have been shot to a burdened end at that point. You know, and I looked back and I couldn't see Wayne anymore. He was just consumed in

the smoke. And then after that, we were headed toward the Red Cross sign where the speakers were telling us to go. And I looked back at the time to see Clive Doyle come out and he had a jacket on and he was patented his jacket out because it had caught on fire somehow. I mean, he was he, I didn't think anyone would make it out after me. So to see him come out was very surprising and he had definitely been caught in the fire when that had happened. He was,

you know, patting his arm out. It was just very surreal. Walked up to the Red Cross side. We got about halfway between the Red Cross side of the building, which is about 50 yards. And he was about 50 yards. I'd say if I hadn't guessed them. And I turned around to see the building in flames. And just as I turned around, that propane tank went up. And you saw that huge fireball. And, you know, I could feel the heat from that fireball. It was absolutely stunning.

It's a horrible scene of witness. And, you know, that we went up to where the tank was. They put us on our faces. They put the straps on our backs and started asking us questions. Well, let's talk about this because this is probably the, um, one of the most disturbing and one of the most argued points is the, um, what's called the Fleer project. Apparently, um, I, I'm trying to remember, I'm racking my memory. You'll know better than me.

The people, or people were starting to, um, it seems like a wall might have fallen in the back of the building where the cafeteria was and people started coming. out. And what the FLIR project was investigating was it looked like as they were trying to escape, there were men back there, soldiers, FBI. You'll probably, you'll probably recollect better than me, who were basically gunning them down. Well, on the FLIR take, and the witness, the expert counted something like 67, of a different fully automatic weapons fire that you can see back there. But it starts even earlier than that.

At the cafeteria, before the fire starts, you see, hold on, no, actually, let me take that back. When the tank comes out of the gymnasium area, right? You can see the plume of the exhaust from the tank. And then next to the tag,

you see some fully automatic, it looks like fully automatic weapons fire. exactly, it looks exactly like fully I'm out of automatic weapons fire shooting into the gymnasium area. Then later as the fire's going, you see, you can't see the shooter, but you can see the flashes. And it's a classic move. I mean, there's the tank, and then next to the tank is somebody shooting into the building. So when I've gone over to the fear a lot, many, many times, and I don't see any individual people. but you do see the fully automatic weapons fire.

And so, wow, all right. I believe I explained this before, but it's important to understand because you could take, you know, 30 years of information and, and cut it up,

if you will, but it, what you have to understand is before the FLARE came out, before the rules of engagement came out, and the FLIR project, which did, thorough investigation on the government's investigation on the FLIR. So the government did an investigation about the FLIR and said it was sunlight reflections.

And then a bunch of money was raised and some, a number of firearms experts in their fields did the FLIR project where they determined that no, absolutely that was fully automatic weapons fire. But you don't hear about this. None of the mainstream media or anybody even talks about it. None of the newer documentaries will even touch it with a 10-foot pole. Nobody wants to touch the fact that somebody at the back of the building was shooting into the building of fully automatic weapons fire. You're just never going to hear it, man.

Believe me, I mean, I can't believe that a piece of evidence like that can be swept under the rug and the information age. I'm sure your listeners are probably a bit different. They probably have done a lot more research than the average, you know, soccer mom, if you will. nonetheless it's there the evidence is there if you look for it it's it's it's crystal clear so you know again before i had read before the the the the the flare i even knew that it existed i had read the autopsy reports on all the people and i was disturbed to find that many people were shot with bullet wounds to the center of their head on the center of their chest over 10 There was maybe 12 or 13.

I can't remember the exact number. I don't have those autopsy reports anymore. But I did. I read all of the autopsy reports when they first came out. I discussed this in my book, you know, Wacoa Survivor story. We talk about everything in much more detail in the book where everything has been documented. But the autopsy reports showed a number of people that were killed with bullets of the senator head and the senator chest. And that is not how you kill yourself.

So they say it was a mass suicide. But even one of the people in the corner's office said that we believed that this scene was more of a homicide than it was suicide. So listen, the evidence is there. People were shot trying to exit the building. And I don't even, like I said, Peter, I don't care if anyone believes me anymore. I'm 55 years old. It doesn't matter to me. You know, people are going to believe what they want to believe.

But the truth is still the truth. It's still there. And it still exists. And I believe, personally, that has been universally recorded. And one day, universally, we'll find out what really happened in Mount Carmel. We'll find out who killed Kennedy. We'll find out all the, you know, the great mysteries of the ancient world, if you will. Nothing is going to be hidden.

And this doesn't, this doesn't even, I don't want to say, has nothing to do that. To me, it has everything to do with God. But I've always believed in a universal justice because it's obvious we're not going to get it down here. So I hope I'm right. As far as the mass suicide goes, I remember that there were even Sheila Martin said that if she

thought that this was a suicide cults at all, you know, her family wouldn't have been there. Yeah. Yeah. But let's talk a little bit about evidence. You already mentioned that the, you know, you had the canisters, the pyrotechnic devices that were marked as silencer suppressors. Probably the biggest piece of evidence that would have proved what happened on February 28th was the front door, the front door disappears. That's a good one.

almost forget about that one, Peter. Yeah, you know, the two double doors, the very front of the building, they were metal doors. They were metal doors. And, you know, of course, there was one that David Cresh had in his hand, and David's story and the people that were at the front of the building on February 28th. They all told me the same thing. They said that David went to the door. He was unarmed. He had the door in his hand.

The ATF were coming in. They were getting out of the cattle trailers. and he said, hold on, there's women and children here. Let's talk about it. And as you was saying that, shot started to come from the ATF into the building. And the door flew back in his hand from the velocity of the bullet hitting it, a bullet hitting it. He closed the door, duck back. And that's when Perry Jones, David Christian's father-in-law, who was behind him, went down screaming.

He had a bullet wound in the stomach. or the stomach area. And that's some of the people that were at the front door started to shoot back. And that was basically the beginning of the firefight. But everyone at the front door says that it was that the ATF fired first when they came in. And as I had said about Kevin Whitecliff was adamant. He was at the back of the building. He was outside of the cafeteria area near the pool and saw the helicopters.

and he saw people shooting from the helicopters. Now, Kevin, in a sense, died. He died a few years back. And I was never able to talk to him, I guess, after he got in jail, he ended up down in Argentina or something. This is before social media. So I didn't really get the chance to talk to Kevin after that. But I will never forget the conviction in his eyes.

I'll never forget him yelling and being, angry and in shock and insisting that the helicopters fired first that they came in shooting. It was just one of those scenes in life that you just, you never, ever forget it. And this is not someone that was lying to me. You know, this is not, this was not somebody who was acting. It was just very sincere and real. And then, as I said, putting, looking at the things that I saw, nobody's ever going to be able to convince me that those helicopters or somebody

even on one of the helicopters just firing into the building that absolutely occurred. I think one of the most damning things against the state in all of this was that after everything was said and done when I guess the only thing that was left

was the what was the stone room that was off of the kitchen was the only thing left standing? What was that? Well, that was the walking cooler and that's where the kids were. All the children and the mothers ended up in the walking cooler area, they were placed under wet blankets to try to survive the CS gas attack at first because, you know, there weren't gas mass small enough for the kids.

So they were put in a place where they would be able to survive the gas. And they probably would have except for the fact that a tank drove all the way through the front of the building, through the cafeteria directly to the walk-in cooler and put an unbelievable amount of gas into the concrete structure. They said they did this to get the women to come out. But we have videos

of grown men in the Army going through training in a chain with their hands on the shoulder of the soldier in front of them going through CS gas training. And the only reason they're able to come out because, number one, they're adults, they're trained, and they have somebody's hand on their shoulder going all the way back in a chain to help to get them out of that building. You can't do that when you're a young child with a lower respiratory track or even, well, obviously, many women would be able to, but some women would not be able to come out of that building with that amount of gas, CS gas being shot into it directly.

And to me, that's one of the most horrendous things when I found out. that putting the gas in the building and trying to get the people out, that's one thing. And again, you know, this is still somebody's home, it's somebody's church, and somebody's living environment, and the government is coming with tags. The government is coming in with tanks. The government is coming in with tags. Well, the speaker systems are saying this is not an assault. This is not an assault.

Do not fire at us. This is not an assault. There's a tank coming through your door. There's a tank coming through your door. front door, they're saying this is not an assault, how would you react to that? Because you think it was an assault that the tanks were coming through your door? You probably would. But the fact that a tank driver could drive through the building to the concrete structure

where the kids are and put CS gas into that room with children, I can't wrap my freaking head around that thought. And in fact, frankly, I blocked it out for many years. I just don't think of it. I purposely have put that in the dungeon of my mind and suppressed it and duct tape it and put a safe around it to not have ever thought of that thought over the last 30 years.

And then what happened was they did the wake-off series book. And I was there for the filming of it because I insist I was there for the filming of it. And when they did the scene when the tank came in, and put the CSK. It became visual. What I had locked away after reading the reports

became very visual to me pretty much for the first time because I just refused to think of it because frankly, in the last 30 years, it was too horrendous to think of for me, Peter. So what I saw it, you know, it's what I saw,

when I witnessed that scene being filmed, it affected me. It was just bonkers. It was bonkers. the effect it had on me because everything I had locked away came up and was there and it was brilliant it was it was in brilliant light it was in color and it was very real and then I had to face what I had suppressed for so long you know I mean one of the things I wanted to mention was the you know that that that cooler was the last thing standing after after the fire and

you know the tell tale thing for me and really for anyone else who knows what happened that day and has seen the pictures and seen the footage is that the ATF raised their flag on the flag pole like a conquering army like a conquering army would do

they weren't there to save children they weren't there to get illegal guns they were there to conquer and after they did they raised their flag up the flagpole like any

a conquering army does. Yeah, it was the American flag, the state of Texas flag, and the ATF flag, all in the same flagpole. I remember that very distinctly. You know, you know, that is one thing that a conquering army does.

And then they did the second thing that a conquering army does. I'm glad you brought that up. They did a propaganda film. That propaganda film was called Ambush of Waco. And it was being filmed during the seeds. And so they had written the script and filmed it during the stage.

And the Ambitia Waco, of course, had a bunch of crazy cultists shooting at the ATF the second they got off the cattle trailers. And, you know, it could change history. They tried to change history, I shouldn't say. One of the scenes in that that really, really grinded on me and made me angry was the scene where there's an agent that gets out with a fire extinguisher. and goes up to the dogs, and he's spraying the dogs with a fire extinguisher for them to get back while the rate is going on. That is not what they did. They got out of the trailers, and it was a couple of the ATF agents, one I actually spoke to, who shot the dogs. And he said that, you know, he didn't want to shoot the dogs, but they were in this pent-up area, but he felt they were aggressive,

and he wasn't going to make sure that the agents got bitten. And so they shot our five Alaskan Malamutes, Fawn and her four pups. And they shot them first thing. In fact, at the trials in San Antonio, some of the testimony that came out indicated that some of the first shot may have been at the agent shooting the dogs and may have been mistaken for them shooting at the people in the building. And that's what started the firefight. So they shot and killed those dogs. and in the propaganda film Ambush of Waco, they got an agent going with a fire extinguisher

like that's going to suppress the dogs or get the dogs back. They didn't want to show what really happened to the American public in their propaganda film. You know, the other thing that they did in that film, there was so many just horrendous things of that film. Boy, I absolutely hated that. And, you know, that's the first thing they do

is any army that goes in and conquers of the country is you do propaganda film promoting why you're there and proving to the populace or, you know, the people in that country or that city, if you will, that you're there to help them, that you're there to liberate them from there, fascist government or whatever government it is. And that's gone on forever. And literally, it was no different here. The person that wrote that, Ambush of Waco, was just given the information the government gave him. I guess he saw the rules of engagement, but he learned many things after, and he has denounced his own film, Ambush at Waco.

He's denounced it, and he's apologized to the survivors for writing it. And he says this too, you know, he feels very shameful and remorseful about having written that going on only on the information that was given to him. So I personally accept his apology, and I'm just glad that somebody like that can see the truth for whatever. it is and and and and be humble enough to offer that apology i i and the survivors really really really did appreciate that now we certainly didn't appreciate that film well you know when when people come out and they're like look i made a mistake it's and they're and they're sincere about it yeah i have i have a hard time you know unless you know i mean if you're talking about you know thousands of people getting killed or something like that. Oh, well, I made a mistake. Well, okay, well, that's a different story.

But, you know, propaganda stuff like that, people who've reported on stuff that turned out to be very, that turned out to be false led people down a path. And if they come out and they're genuinely repentance about it, then I have no problem. No problem with that. And that's actually, that in today's world, that actually shows a lot of character that someone would say, look, I made a mistake and I completely disavow everything that I did there. Yeah. I agree. Absolutely. Well, let's end this.

Thank you. Thank you for your time. Remind everybody about the memorial that's coming up on the 19th. I believe the 19th is a Friday this year. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the 19th is a Friday. So that's two Fridays from now, 10 days from now. So remind everybody how, what you all get?

get together and do, and then I'll make sure to add the link so that people can help to pay for this and donate to keep this going. Yeah. See, the other thing about the memorial this year is every year we've had the memorial. There's a misunderstanding that's a, that's a nice way of putting it between the people that are out at the actual property and all of the survivors. And so we don't go out to Mount Carmel anymore. You know, people can still go out and see it. But all the memorials have been done at the, at the, at the, there's a Waco Museum in Waco, the Helen Waco Museum.

And we've had it there forever for, oh, my gosh, it's been decades. This year, they're remodeling, so we can't have it. So we had to rent a space. It's going to be, the memorial this year will be at the Quality Inn. In Waco, it starts at 10 a.m. It goes to one after all the names are read one or two. I think I got a very talented singer, someone who was a feature on the voice of 13th season, that's going to do a song.

Yeah, it should be a very interesting piece. We have a lot of survivors that are coming in from all over. Britain Buchanan. Britain Buchanan is the singer. that's going to do a song and we have Paul Fatt is coming in Danao Kodal is coming in and we're going to be

the Joneses will be there so I'm really looking forward to getting to see everyone but it's going to be at the quality in 10 a.m. on Friday. We're going to zoom it as well so those that can't make it can attend the Zoom and I'll have the link for the Zoom. I'll get you to that link and it'll be on anyone who wants to friend me, David Timito

can friend me on Facebook and I'll I'll make sure that you'll get the link. I'll make sure to add all those links in. Always great talking to you, David. Thank you so much. I just want to say one more thing. I'm so appreciative to anyone that can help to make this memorial.

And anyone that can just even, if you only got like five bucks to give, God bless you. And thank you so much. It's going to help with all of the expenses that we have this year. And it's been a rough year for a lot of people. So we just so appreciate it, man. God bless all of you, man. the honest. I really appreciate you listening. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And God bless you, David. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.

Right on, Peter. You guys, you take care of yourself.