The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1042: Oklahoma City, OK - April 19, 1995 w/ Richard Booth

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

67 MinutesSafe For WorkRichard Booth is the premiere researcher and compiler of information on the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. Richard joins Pete to go over unknown facts and speculation about the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.Richard's SubstackThe OKC Archive at Libertarian InstituteRichard's Previous AppearanceVIP Summit 3-Truth To Freedom - Autonomy w/ Richard GroveSupport Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's Substack Pete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Keep it to yourself. If you want to support the show and get the episodes early and ad-free, head on over to freeamambionthe-wall.com forward slash support. There's a few ways you can support me there. One, there's a direct link to my website. Two, there's subscribe star. Three, there's Patreon. Four, there's substack. And now I've introduced Gumroad, because I know that a lot of our guys are on Gumroad and they are against censorship. So if you head over to Gumroad and you subscribe through there, you'll get the episode early and ad-free, and you'll get an invite into the telegram group. So I really appreciate all

the support everyone's giving me, and I hope to expand the show even more than it already has. Thank you so much. I want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Yono show. It's been a while, what, three or four years? How you doing, Richard Booth? Yeah, doing pretty good. Yeah, your show is one of the very first that that I went on. But yeah, I was, I think, 2019. Yeah. Yeah, that was a pretty in-depth episode. I think this is going to be more, and I can link to that one, but I think this one's going to be a little more of like an overview of Oklahoma City, considering this is going to be released on the 19th. And I'll be releasing on the same day I release a Waco episode because, you know, they both happened on April 19th. Just two.

years apart. But yeah, the Oklahoma City thing, I remember I'm old enough to remember the day it happened, the day it came over. I was at work and it came over the radio. And it just seemed really devastating at the moment. But I don't remember exactly what you said last time was your start, what started you down the road of looking at Oklahoma City. Yeah. So I remember kind of when it happened to. I was 17 years old in high school, and we had cable TV in all of our classrooms, a grant from the local cable company. So we had these big CRT televisions in the corner of each room. And pretty much within 30 minutes of it happening, one of the faculty came into our classroom and had our instructor put the TV on. So we, you know, we saw it.

And what really captured my attention was on the 20th of April when the FBI put out sketches of two suspects. And it was interesting to me and probably a lot of other people in Oklahoma because we viewed it as, well, this has to be like some foreign thing. We thought it would be like a Middle Eastern terrorism. And when you see these two drawings, it looks just like any other Oklahoma. It could have been anyone. And so that, I think, made myself and other people interested and what really, really captured my attention was when the FBI up and decided that one of the two suspects in those sketches did not exist. They actually said that he doesn't exist. All the witnesses were wrong.

And by that point, we had had many witness accounts come out in the paper, people being interviewed. So when that happened in June, just a few months after the bombing, I was convinced that there's some kind of conspiracy here. There's something that's not right. I think the one thing that really interested me back then was the fact that there was no congressional hearing. Yeah, there was a congressional hearing on Waco. That was a dog and pony show. If you've ever seen the footage from that, what an absolute joke that was. but yeah, there was no congressional hearing on this, and, you know, much like,

much like JFK, much like 9-11, but immediately they knew who had done this. And you have to ask yourself, well, why did they know who did this? And, you know, of course, we, we know why they had these names because, you know, you've studied this a lot more than I have, but I've studied enough to know why they had these names. And why do you think they never did a congressional hearing? Well, I think at a congressional hearing would have could potentially have put a spotlight on things that the DOJ didn't want. Because you found at that time ordinary Oklahomans were not many of them, not buying this story that it was just just Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols and that John Doe 2 doesn't

exist. They weren't buying it, and they had signed off on a grand jury to investigate it. This was around 98, 97, 98. And if there were any type of congressional hearings, if you imagine the scrutiny that that grand jury was putting witnesses and events under, if you magnify that by 1,000, that's what would happen, you know, with a congressional inquiry, you're going to have just so much coverage and they had there's well the case is just such a liability to the FBI because anybody who does look at the evidence will see rather quickly that there were other people involved who are not you know not in jail today not even named today and that that's just unacceptable I think really they knew it was a liability there's no way there would have been

federal or congressional hearing on this. they just know couldn't get away with it. I've done a little bit fairly recently on the run-up to what happened, Elohim City, things that people just don't. Most people don't know. But specifically that day, once you talk about some of the reports that were coming out, there were people saying they heard more,

they heard other explosions, there were claims were made that the ATF had an office in that building. it would have been full at that time, but at that time of the morning on this day, there was no ATF agent in there. So what are some of the things that, you know, like really jump out at you from that day that were reported that then just got memory hold? Well, the ATF in particular, this would have been something that would have been right in the crosshairs of any congressional inquiry, and that would be that, well, this came out. It was verified by, ABC News, they had a program called 2020, like 60 Minutes, an investigative program.

And in 1997, they ran a story called The Families Want to Know. And it was about people who were victims of the bombing or victims' family members. And they had said that what they want to know is why were no ATF agents in their office at the Murrah building that day. and they had been able to, these victims and victim investigators, in some cases with Glenn and Kathy Wilburn, they had confirmed that the ATF was not in their office that morning. And on a normal workday, they would have had at least 10 or 15 people in there. And on this day, none.

And they heard different excuses as to why. And what became readily apparent was that the ATF had, not really thought about in advance what their cover story was going to be because they started saying things like, oh, well, we think they were out on a golf tournament or we think they were out of town or, well, no, some people were there and they got injured, but then they couldn't name anybody. And so finally, Chief out of Fort Worth, I think it was, I think it's Lester March, confirmed that most of the agents who worked out of that office were not there because they had been working on an all-night surveillance operation. And this 2020 piece that covered this, they basically

covered the fact that ATF agents were not there, that one of the victims, he showed up, you know, the rubble of the Murr building right after it happened. He knew the local ATF agents. And so he runs up to a guy with ATF on his windbreaker thinking it's one of these local agents he knows. And it's not. It's a guy he doesn't know. Anyway, he pleads with them. You know, my wife works here in the credit union. I know the guys who work here.

I'm sure if you can get him on there, that they'll help, you know, help me find her. And he just pleaded with this guy and the guy kind of didn't really seem to know what to do. He gets on his walkie-talkie for a second. And he comes back and says, well, it's going to be kind of hard for me to get a hold of those guys is they weren't here today. They were tipped by their pagers not to come into work, which that in and of itself is different than being out on an all-night surveillance operation. So you're like, yeah, which of these stories is true, which isn't. And that right there is one of the key big ones because it can be proven that the ATF lied about this, that they did

not have their employees in the office that day. And they even went so far as to fabricate fake stories where they've got these two agents supposedly detailing stories of heroism, where they are going through the rubble and saving victims, and they were in a supposedly in an elevator that fell, you know, four or five floors, free fall conditions, and all that was completely debunked by the elevator repair technicians, you know, who said there are service indicators on the elevator that will show if it was ever in free fall. And the service indicators on all of these elevators, none of them indicate they were ever in a free fall condition. So that's just one of the huge, huge things, I think, is the ATFs whereabouts that day.

And more importantly, that all night surveillance operation. I think that might relate to the bombing. When I think of the day, I also think of there were reports that Timothy McVeigh was seen driving people recognized him, but also that there was a Middle Eastern man in the seat next to him. I remember, I think maybe one of the only reasons I remember this sticks in my mind so much is because I remember when Glenn Beck was just on the radio. And on his website, this is in the early 2000s, there was a link up in the left-hand corner of his website that would talk about the fact that who was the Middle Eastern man, who was with

Timothy McVeigh on the day that Oklahoma City bombing was done. What in your research have you found out about that? Yeah, so that was an early question, and that comes from a couple of different things, but the main reason for any reporting on that is that there was a brown truck that was idling in front of the Murrah building. And two guys at breakneck speed just bolted straight for that truck, jumped in it, and it peeled out. And it did so in such a fashion that it got the attention of a lot of people around the building.

This happened probably 30 seconds before the building, you know, before the bomb detonated. And so they put out and there was an APB put out for two plus Middle Eastern May. and a brown truck. Now that kind of became conflated with a specific person where a local news journalist named Jaina Davis, who is greatly influenced by neocons, your typical neocons like Wolfowitz, Pearl, these people, these people very much influenced her reporting. And what she did was she identified a local Iraqi who, who, was like basically just kind of a handyman like fixed fences and stuff and she identified him as being John Doe 2 just all kinds of problems though with that identification at first of all this guy is a fat

slob and John Doe 2 by all accounts was very muscular he was like a built like an operator or athletic where this guy uh uh husani al husani is just kind of like a fat guy and doesn't really, really match. What I did is I read Jane and Davis's book, probably the one you may have seen on Glenbeck's site, because a lot of the conservative folks just love this book because it puts the blame a little bit on Iraq. And when I read her book, I noted that she took all of the witnesses, which whose names I'm very familiar with, having read all their 302s and everything, I'm reading the book and I'm noting she changed all their names. So in the book, all the witnesses have phony names, and she's making a lot of claims

in there that really can't be verified. Now, what stands out to me the most, though, is that right after the bombing, you have people like Vincent Conestraro, who you may have been aware of him. He appeared on TV every now and then, like a talking head, and he would write for like the Boston Globe. But his primary career was as an intelligence officer. This guy, Conestrero, worked for the CIA. And so Conestrero is publishing an op-ed on the day after the bombing, on the 20th, basically laying it at the feet of Saddam Hussein. And then as we go on in the year or two that follow the bombing,

we find at least five or six other intelligence figures, including the former director of the CIA, James Woolsey, saying that it was Iraqis or someone connected to Hussein. And so that told me all I need to know. Okay, I see what they're doing here. They're exploiting this story for their own, you know, aims or perhaps even worse, you know, but ultimately I think that is for sure a red herring. But it's one that certain intelligence people would really like others to look at. There's so much rugby on Sports Extra from Sky They've asked me to read the whole lad at the same speed

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is the right prescription for you. Yeah, I guess that was my question, whether it was opportunistic or whether it was part of the plan, because, I don't know, can you speak to the fact that, we don't have to go really in-depth because we've covered this before,

that when the investigations were done, and when people really started looking into this, you found out that one of the places that this was planned out, was a place called Elohim City, and it seemed to be crawling with feds and spooks. Absolutely right. That's right. And that is where I personally, I think the bombing operation was planned from there. And I believe one of the key figures involved in that was Andy Strasmeyer. And he was for sure a Fed or a spoof. You could give him that.

He was in the Bundeswyr, the German army, and he worked in intelligence in the German army. And his role was to identify Warsaw Pact agents and feed them false information. So he's had training on handling sources and doing different types of clandestine activity before he just shows up in the United States. And what's so interesting about this guy is he's very clearly

not a neo-Nazi, right? Not someone who should be your head of security if you have some kind of compound because he's there under false pretenses. He's pretending, as it turned out later, this guy Strasmeier speaks in addition to English, of course speaks German, and he also speaks Hebrew.

Now, I don't know a whole lot of neo-Nazis who just in their spare time learn Hebrew or vacation in Israel, which Strassmeyer did do. So you're absolutely right. This compound was filled with feds from people from you've got ATF informants there. You have FBI informants there, which is one of the reasons we know about September or fall, the 94 meeting at Elohim City in which McVeigh was president. is due to an FBI informant.

So you've got these informants there. Then, of course, they all don't know about one another or about their relevant operations. And so you have in some cases where they might be reporting on one another. I think Strauss-Myers' father was actually finance minister under Helmut Coal. That sounds correct. I know that he was a high-ranking official under Helmut Coal, sort of the equivalent, maybe of Secretary of State. And he helped preside over German reunification.

He's got a brother that's on the city council in Berlin. So it is a rather prominent family. And I guess you're the one I should ask about this because I've read this before. Was it possible that one of the people that Strassmeier was reporting to one of the organizations that he's reporting to was the Southern Postman. Poverty Law Center? Very possible. We have reasons to suspect that, and one of the primary ones, basically, is that for the FBI or ATF, for that matter, to get an informant into an operation that is very provocative, had a great deal of oversight, and what we think, me and other researchers,

We believe that Andy Strassmeyer might have been part of a joint operation that was carried out by the Department of Justice coordinating with German law enforcement. And we have, as evidence of that, various news clippings regarding Louis Free going over there to Germany and meeting with his counterparts. And they're talking about this alliance that they have formed. And they come to find out they did an operation called Atlantic. two in which they were tracking down a disseminator of white supremacist propaganda where this material was coming from the states and into Germany, and they tracked it down and busted that guy as part of Atlantic 2. Well, Roger Charles, my research mentor, as he would say, he would have said that if there's

an Atlantic 2, there is an Atlantic 1. And the timing and the content being that it's a white supremacist target, just like an Atlantic 2, we think Atlantic 1 might have been the operation involving Andy Strassmeyer. And this operation necessarily would have a cutout where he's reporting his information to this third-party cutout that's like not the government, right? So if he's reporting it to the SPLC and then that information is being shared, then that's technically a relationship that is not bound by the typical rules that you have to enforce in a normal FBI confidential informant type scenario.

And we believe that that may be the case. So amazing, the things they get away with. It reminds me of the drug nexus at Waco, where the only way they could get the military hardware for free was they had to prove that there was a drug nexus and they used a like a 13-year, something that happened 13 years before, where they're renting out rooms and someone was making math there.

They just find their ways around this. And you know, you also have to wonder if that's just how it's designed. It's designed in the first place that you have a way to get around whatever kind of regulations or whatever kind, yeah, any regs that are in place at the time. So, all right. We're going to say something?

I was going to say that, yeah, the FBI has certainly had a long career and time to learn how to go about, you know, playing the system and doing that. So, yeah. So after the bombing, it seems McVeigh is caught when in a car that has expired license plates, is all this, how long after is he caught and what are the circumstances where he's caught? So, yeah, McVeigh was pulled over about. an hour and a half, near two hours after the bombing. And he was in or near Perry, Oklahoma, which would be north of Oklahoma City. He was leaving Oklahoma City in this Mercury Marquis.

And you're right, this vehicle did not have a license plate. And so right away, it's unusual. If you've got someone planning this thing down to the last detail, why has he got an escape vehicle with no license plate. He could have put a fake one on there, never got a second glance. So he has no plate. So he is pulled over. And when he's pulled over, he has strapped to his belt like a seven-inch knife, and he's got his Glock in a shoulder holster. I think anybody who would have planned something like this would have left that stuff in the trunk and not been so conspicuous. But at any rate, there are questions about why that vehicle had no license play, a lot of speculation there. And I personally think that he did not intend to flee the scene in that vehicle.

The reason I think that is found in that vehicle was a thick envelope. And in that envelope, it had clippings from the Turner Diaries, clippings about Waco calling cards. And so if he intended to leave this for the feds to find, it stands to reason that you would think, well, he's going to leave this car. With nothing in it to connect to his name, McVeigh, no license plate, no registration, nothing like that. It was never in his name to begin with. All they have is this packet they find. It's a political statement. Well, I think for whatever reason, something happened that morning with his compatriots that caused him to be forced into having to use that vehicle.

So he's pulled over. Police officer sees the firearm. And basically he puts his gun to McVeigh's head and tells him, you know, he reaches in and he takes the firearm off of him because a concealed carry. It is legal in Oklahoma. He didn't have any kind of concealed carry permit or anything. So ultimately, it was just a firearms charge that he had illegally concealing a weapon. So he's taken into custom. And he was, by all accounts, very pleasant to this highway patrolman, did not act suspicious in any way, was not combative, sat in the car talking to him, asking him, you know, about his service weapon or something a guy might want to talk about if he's into guns or something.

So that sent no red flags to the police. And so McVeigh basically then was in the Noble County courthouse. captured on that Wednesday when the bombing happened. And he was about to go before a judge where he could have bonded out on Friday when the FBI had figured out his name by that point. And they knew the guy we're looking for is Tim McVe. Well, when they checked criminal databases, they see, look at this. He's in a cell right here in Oklahoma. And that's when they went to go get him.

But that's essentially how he got pulled over due to that. license plate and his behavior was enough that he could have gotten away with it or almost did based on his behavior. And if he'd have made some slight modifications to it, he probably would have got away. Here's one that I've heard over the years, and I don't remember if we addressed it the first time you were on the show, the possibility that there were two rental trucks and that this was basically a setup so that it's something that the FBI does all the time, where they set someone up, they teach them, they build the bomb for them, tell them where to get everything, and then when the person goes to commit the crime,

they catch them, and they're like, look, you need the FBI. They basically create scarcity for themselves where everybody's like, oh, we need the FBI. Is there evidence that there were two trucks that day that went out and the FBI followed the wrong one? There is. There is indeed evidence that suggests that. And just a comment on what you just said there about the FBI and how they'll set people up and all this. You know, a good example of that is a 2014 human rights watch report that was put out and published, I think, in the Columbia Law Review.

and this report basically said that in every high-profile terrorism case, up to that point, the FBI had provided the means, materials, explosives, targets, everything, all of them. And so that certainly would fit their MO. Now, as far as the two rider trucks, there's a very good reason to suspect that. And I think it's a key to the mystery that we haven't quite solved. yet. But what I can say is that the FBI found out particularly early on that there had to have been another truck. And the reason for that is the bomb truck was rented on April 17th. Okay. And McVeigh was staying in a motel in Kansas that weekend, like a 15th, 16th, 17th, I think, called the Dreamland. And they interviewed,

FBI interviewed everyone at the Dreamland. And what they all said was that when Tim McVeigh checked in on Friday, now bear in mind, he didn't rent a truck until Monday. So he checks in on a Friday, and they said on Friday, Saturday, and Easter Sunday, they all remember him having a rider truck. And furthermore, a number of these witnesses were able to actually say, you know, the truck he had at first was a little bit smaller. It was faded yellow, kind of looked older.

The writer logo was somewhat worn off. And so they noticed that it was a newer and bigger truck that he showed up with on Monday. So in addition, though, to these witnesses at the Dreamland, who we must bear on mind, one of the days that they're talking about was Easter Sunday. And so it's a day that might be a little bit different for you depending upon your lifestyle, but it's Easter. you're going to remember kind of what you did that day if something unusual stood out. And what they all said that stood out was this guy with this big rider truck on Easter. So in addition to that, the FBI put up a roadblock by Gary Lake in Kansas. And the reason they did that is they wanted to stop people who would commute that past Gary Lake,

where the FBI contends the bomb was built. And they wanted to ask these people if they had seen anything down there unusual. because we know McVeigh was down at Geary Lake on April 18th with Terry Nichols putting together a bomb. Well, that is to say the roadblock they set up was very successful. It produced many witnesses of high quality according to the FBI. And what these witnesses almost universally said was that on April 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th, four days in a row, they saw a rider truck parked down at Gary Lake. So you've got this truck spotted there three or four days in a row,

and McVeigh doesn't rent the bomb truck until the 17th. So what are these other witnesses who are seeing a truck between the 11th and the 16th seeing, right? And the FBI gets to a point where they have a flyer from rider rental, and it shows the three different types of trucks they rent. And they started showing this to witnesses, and they would ask them, point out on this flyer here, which type of truck you saw.

You know, because they knew the bigger one was the one he rented on the 17th, and they knew this smaller one with like a sort of a cab overhang on it, was the one spotted prior to that. Now, what we think happened, myself and some other researchers is that the bombers

perhaps undertook some sort of diversionary gambit. And we believe that they used this original truck, which turned out, I think, being too small for the bomb they wanted to build. I think they wanted to use this truck in a

diversionary gambit that morning, knowing there would be an investigation, knowing there would be witnesses interviewed if they were to drive it around in downtown Oklahoma City, at the same time this other truck and these other vehicles are being moved around, it could serve to impeach the witnesses by they're all confused, they're seeing different things. And in addition to that, we have this group that we believe out of Elohim City,

who is largely McVeigh's accomplices, called the Aryan Republican Army, had a history of employing diversionary gambits like this. And one of their bank robberies, for example, the drop car, just a car that, buy just to get away from the scene. One of them bought a drop car and what they decided to do is they bought an identical drop car, same make model year and even color, and they utilized both of these cars in the robbery to so confusing reports. And it was also the same reason they used pipe bombs in their robberies. It was an inert pipe bomb. It was not active. The whole reason they used it was because if there's an explosive device in the lobby of the bank, that's going to grind the FBI

investigation to a halt for two or three hours. And they knew that. So that's why they used this fake explosive device. So ultimately, the most I can say is I know they had a smaller, older truck, and they had that for several days before the bombing, and ultimately probably decided to use it for something. And our suspicion, based upon a number of factors, is maybe this diversionary thing. And some of that comes from Andy Strasmeyer. He was interviewed in like 97 by a British journalist, Ambrose Evans Pritchard. And in that interview, he really was kind of forthcoming.

He almost spilled his guts, you know, couching it in terms like, you know, the informant, when it's obvious, he's talking about himself. he said that the bombing crew knew that there was a tracking device on the bomb truck and that they had moved it. And we think, well, they moved it to this other truck. And there are a few other things, too, that lend towards this idea that they were using a radio frequency tracking device. So at that time, the FBI, what they would have is a transmitter that transmits on the FM. radio frequency and it emits a beep, just a constant beep. And if you tune into that frequency, the closer you get to that vehicle, the louder the beep is because you're closer to the transmission.

We believe that they were using this FM transmitter. And the downsides to that is if you're tracking a vehicle, first of all, the vehicle can't be moving. Okay. You have to know approximately within five to ten miles where it is to be able to even converge on it. Right. And Roger Charles, who worked for 2020, when he investigated this, he had witnesses via Glenn and Kathy Wilburn bombing victims turned investigators who had said that they saw feds out there that early, early morning, four or five in the morning. And they had hoop antennas, which are directional antennas, the type of hoop antenna that you would use to triangulate a radio signal. And that's what Roger Charles theorized in a piece he wrote in 2001. He writes about these witnesses to the feds with their hoops thinking, well, they were trying to triangulate a signal that they were not getting

because the truck's not showing up at the time they're expecting in the middle of the night. They don't know where it is. Well, let's go and see what the tracker says. There's so much rugby on Sports Exeter from Sky, they've asked me to read the whole lad at the same speed I usually use for the legal bit at the end. Here goes. This winter sports extra is jam-packed with rugby For the first time we've got every Champions Cup match exclusively live

Plus action from the URC The Challenge Cup and much more Thus the URC and all the best European rugby All in the same place Get more exclusively live tournaments than ever before on Sports Extra Jampack with rugby Phew, that is a lot of rugby Get Sports Extra on Sky for 15 euro a month for 12 months

Search Sports Extra New Sports Extra customers only Standard Pressing applies after 12 months For the terms apply On the many days of Christmas The Guinness Storehouse brings to thee A visit filled with festivity Experience a story of Ireland's most iconic beer

in a stunning Christmas setting at the Guinness Storehouse. Enjoy seven floors of interactive exhibitions and finish your visit with breathtaking views of Dublin City from the home of Guinness. Live entertainment, great memories and the gravity bar. My goodness, it's Christmas at the Guinness Storehouse. Book now at ginnestorehouse.com. Get the facts, be drinkaware, visit drinkaware.eweer.

Have you recently purchased a new vehicle from Francine Volkswagen? If so, you may be at risk for an exciting condition known as new car joy. Symptoms may include spontaneous smiling, sudden increases in confidence and uncontrollable urges to take the scenic route. If you experience any of these symptoms, don't worry.

The only known treatment is enjoying your new vehicle. Side effects may also include great value and exceptional customer service. Talk to a friendly professional at Frank Heen Volkswagen today and see if upgrading your car is the right prescription for you. All right, well, let's get into something that is always going to happen when that kind of damage is done and seen.

Apparently, people have tried to recreate at scale the bombing, using a truck, using the same-size bomb, and try to replicate the damage it was done. And apparently, no one's been able to do it. So hence, that means that there were bombs inside the building. that bombs were also planted inside the building ahead of time. Are we in conspiracy land or what are we doing? Partially, but as with all conspiracies, there often is a kernel of truth. And I think it's important to nail the details down on this one because I am not completely sold on the idea that that's just a conspiracy.

And I'll tell you why. Something you mentioned earlier, talking about people right after the bombing saying there were like two. explosions and what have you. What that was is we had a seismograph in Oklahoma City, and there was another nearby science museum called the Omniplex, which had a seismograph. And the seismographic records indicated that there was a very large kinetic event that occurred within seconds of each other. Basically, these records appeared to show what you would, would see if there were two explosions that occurred within one second of one another. So if you detonated a truck bomb and some explosives, well, this is what you're going to see. And that's what they

saw. So that's why people were speculating there had to be other blasts. Now, they also, a lot of them were operating off of other information that was probably bad. For example, during rescue operations that day, it was reported several times that a secondary explosive device has, been found and I've gone through the news reporting from April 19th the week of and I've got all this including Peter Jennings reporting that a second bomb has been found. When you see that, you're like, oh my God, you know, a second bomb has been found. Well, this has been memory hole. What's this about? Well, as it turns out, the ATF, as their want to do, did not follow any of their safety recommendations and were in fact storing illegal explosives in

in the ATF storage locker, which in their infinite wisdom, they decided to put above a daycare. So above this daycare, you have this evidence locker for the ATF filled with things like SIMTECs, C4. They had a tow missile in there. And I think what, yeah. I could never forget that, that there was a tow missile in the ATF office. Well, why they need that, I wouldn't even want to speculate, but they had it. And so what was happening, it really is they were finding a lot of the stuff from the ATF evidence locker, and they had just reported what they found.

It's an explosive device. Now, some people will say, that's all it was. They found this ATF stuff. It was blown up, and everything else is just kooky. I don't take that position. I think things are more nuanced. right? And I am open to the idea simply because I'm not an explosive expert. I know that I cannot look at the crime scene and I cannot make an accurate determination because my skill level is not

what it needs to be to do that. So I have to rely on others. And when you look to others who are explosive experts, the opinions are in some cases divided, but you do for sure have people who are explosive experts who looked at it and have said, there's no way this was an info bomb. The blast pressure wave had to have been much, much bigger to turn concrete into powder. But what really convinced me, at least that there is some legitimacy to these arguments, is that one of the columns in the building that was close to the rider truck was left perfectly standing and another column that's further away from the rider truck was completely demolished. And you would expect to see a uniform, at least as a layman,

I know that you can expect to see a uniform blast damage radius where things closer to the blast are going to be demolished, and things further away, less damaged. And you don't see that with these columns. And that is always stuck in my mind. So I'm always going to be open-minded about that and think, well, sure, it's possible that some explosives were put in the building. Now, by who? You know, I couldn't tell you.

But it's certainly a possibility. Also, there were reports that day that the size of the bomb. The size of the bomb, it seems like over the next, over the first 24 hours, just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Is that something normal that you've seen from your research, or does that seem out of the ordinary for this scenario? It did seem out of the ordinary to me, because you're right. First thing, they said, oh, it looks like this is a 1,200 pound info, then that went to 2,400, then 48th, and it's kept going up. And ultimately, when Tim McVeigh put out his own book, where he lies considerably always to cover, for his compatriots, he claimed that it was a 7,000-pound bomb.

And that, I think, is the main area that people who know about explosives focus in on is the fact that an ammonium nitrate bomb has a, and I'm not an expert here, so I may not be butchering the terminology, but the blast pressure wave is not strong enough to turn steel, rebar, and concrete into powder, and that the level of damage seen that day was indicative of something that had a much higher power that had a far more strength than the blast pressure wave. And it's an area I think still should be explored. and something you mentioned about trying to recreate it.

The feds did this. They had a study at Eglin Air Force Base, which I got, I did get that study and put it on my archive. Anyone's interested in they basically tried to build an infobomb and they were not very successful in reproducing any damage to the extent as to what was seen that day. Yeah, I think the argument is, is that when you look at the, damage, could that damage be done from the outside, that any kind of blast would have to have, the kind of pressure it would have to do that kind of damage would be abnormal to say the least, because it's like the thing where you take a firecracker, you light it in your hand, M80 and you light it in your hand, and you're going to lose your hand.

you're going to lose your fingers. But if you hold the maybe like this, I mean, you'll get burned, but you might get some pressure, but you're not going to, so the question is, I guess that a lot of people have asked is, how can that damage be done from the outside

when so much of that looks like it just basically fell? It does. In fact, if you look at the damage pattern and think about it from the perspective of how would a building look if you were going to implode it in only two-thirds of the charges went off. And that's kind of what that looks like.

So, yeah, that's a very interesting area. And you mentioned regarding the damage being from the outside or inside charges. The recent CNN piece on Terry Yiki, which was just surprising to me that they even went there, but they did this pretty darn good investigative piece on the murder of an Oklahoma police officer. And they interviewed his sister. And in the interview, she said something that she'd not been said before. It was new, basically. And she said that Terry had seen evidence that the building was damaged from the inside out rather than from the outside in.

And that's the language she used. As a layman, that's kind of what you would expect, but that says a lot to us, you know. She said Terry had seen the damage originated on the inside. And that would speak to what explosives on the columns, cutting charges observed on the columns, which he or any other first responder could have been in a position to see that. And few would be qualified to recognize it. But I think anyone who is qualified would see. and no cutting charges when they saw them.

And so I'm never going to just say, no, no, that couldn't be it because I don't have enough variables. I don't have all the information, so I can't make the final call on that, other than to say that there is an argument there. There's so much rugby on Sports Extra from Sky, they've asked me to read the whole lad at the same speed I usually use for the legal bit at the end. Here goes.

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If so, you may be at risk for an exciting condition known as New Car Joy. Symptoms may include spontaneous smiling, sudden increases in confidence and uncontrollable urges to take the scenic route. If you experience any of these symptoms, don't worry. The only known treatment is enjoying your new vehicle. Side effects may also include great value and exceptional customer service. Talk to a friendly professional at Frank Heen Volkswagen today and see if upgrading your car is the right prescription for you. Yeah, I think it's interesting that if you told a 10-year-old, if you showed them that building,

and said, you know, a bomb went off. Instinctively, they would not believe that the bomb was from the outside. They would believe it was from the inside. And nobody believes that, I honestly believe that you look at that and you're the only reason that people jump to and even get mad if you say anything to the contrary, that it was more than the truck is because people have just bought into it. they've bought the narrative. And once people buy a narrative, they're sold. Yeah, that's right.

They're locked in. Yeah. It's like, it's like ideology or religion in some cases. That's how it gets with people. And the biggest problem that that I ran into in my research was I could, it used to be, well, it's great now because people love to talk about Oklahoma City. So I'm just like, oh, this is great. But 10 years ago, people were like, what are you talking about? So what I would run into is people were so invested in the idea that the person who did it was a right winger. They loved that. They absolutely loved that, that it was Tim McVeigh. So they could say, oh, look, your side or the non-liberals, they're all terrorists.

Look, that's who did it. And that is still very much a factor today when you see the revisionist writings, like with Jeff Tubin and his book Homegrown, where he's basically, thesis in that book is to just kind of, in not very much detail, regurgitate the official story and as little as 10 to 20 pages, and then uses the rest of the book to try to make an argument that Tim McVeigh was just a, he was just a regular Republican. He liked contract for America and Newt Gingrich, and he was just a regular Republican. And therefore, all Republicans are potential McVeves. That's his theory.

in his book, which is offensive, given that the majority of the victims of this bombing were Republicans. You know, I mean, the majority of... Also, when you look at the people that McVeigh was associated with, I mean, these weren't, I mean, everybody throws around the term, you know, Nazi now, area, you know, they were. they were proud of it. The Kehoe brothers. Exactly. Yeah, the Kehoe brothers were, you know, that's the whole thing about when people call people Nazis.

Now I'm like, you know, most people in my history, especially when you study the Pact, everything, Pac-Con from the 90s, pretty much anybody who, you know, Randy Weaver, look who he was hanging out with. Those people had no, they were proud of who they were. So to try and turn, to try and turn McVeigh into some kind of moderate liberal, which is basically what Republicans are.

Right. They're more moderate liberals is, I mean, disingenuous at best. And, you know, Jeffrey Toobin, after what we've witnessed from him, his morals are, you know, Calden's question here. Oh, for sure. I think with Jeff Toobin, it was obvious that I believe, I can't prove this, but this is my belief, that he was assigned this book, and this is his penance for his disgusting, inappropriate, unacceptable behavior that all of us should condemn and call degenerate and never pay attention to him again. But in order for him to be able to get back on TV and get his pundit job back. Well, what are we going to have you do? We're going to have you write this book that it's going to classify 50% or more of America's current voting populist block as terrorists.

And that's kind of, that's what he did. So, yeah, McVeigh was associating with, I would say, committed serious ideologically, ideologically, driven people. People who, for example, are the kind of person who would rob a bank of $100,000 and donate the majority of that money to the National Alliance. That says a lot. If you're someone who's poor and your job is robbing banks and pulling Kmart scams, the fact that you're willing to take 90% or more of the money you've obtained just to fund an organization is, it's amazing to me. That says so much about the people behind this.

You're not going to find very many Republicans or liberals or, you know, in any political stripe who would behave that way. It's a certain type and it does a disservice to history. to try and say it was just some conservative. Well, one of the books that really opened my eyes to what the FBI does was the terror factory by Trevor Aronson. And I read like the first three quarters of that book and never finished it. And I was like, okay, I got enough out of this book.

I figured it out. And, you know, I would tell people to read it. Well, I think it was our mutual friend, Jose Gallison, who said, have you ever finished it? And I'm like, no. And it's like basically what the book teaches is that since 2001, since 9-11, any kind of terrorist activity by someone of Middle Eastern heritage in the United States was basically set up by the FBI.

And then they would set them up, even give them the money to buy the guns, show them where to get the guns, teach them how to use the guns, and then set them off on their way and then catch them and, hey, look what we did. But what Jose said was, read the end of the book. And I went back and I read the end of the book. And basically Trevor Aronson's biggest complaint was, is that the FBI was entrapping poor Middle Easterners when he should have been going after radical white people. Because radical white people in this country are what's most,

or what's most dangerous? That's exactly. Well, that's a very good point. And I think that it is perhaps instructive to us as to Trevor Aronson's political bias. And one thing I noted with Aronson, and I really liked his work. I thought the work was good. But I was looking at it and thinking, how come he only is talking about Mosloy? Everything in this is through this.

lens of these Muslims when it should be these Americans that the FBI is doing this too. And the fact that he didn't make that distinction was troubling to me, especially then after finding out from the Human Rights Watch study and other studies that this was the MO that they applied to everyone. It wasn't just Muslims. Trevor Aronson is great if you want to go and read about the FBI and trapping Muslims, but he's not going to be covering things like the Whitmer plot, I don't think. But he recently did do something called the Alphabet Boys, which covers FBI going into BLM. But I don't think he's, of course. Of course.

Of course he is. Yeah, he'll cover that. He's not going to cover the Waco Massacre 2. No. The motorcycle, remember the motorcycle? The, yeah. down in Texas, the motorcycle gang shootout type deal. Yeah, which was the setup of the feds.

Fed's, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So you're right about that. And I think it's illustrative of Aronson's, God, I want to say that he has to be aware of it. He's not a dumb guy. He has to be aware that he's not being political. He's being political here and not being honest because his, his,

decision or that is to say his conclusions should not have been well they're not doing this to enough white guys should be why the hell are they doing this to americans you know that's why i get upset because i you know that that that we're a target and i firmly believe after seeing tubin's book that something actually is going to happen and perhaps i'm just cynical here maybe i'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist. So I'm going to put this out here and say, I could be totally wrong on this. But I personally believe that there's going to be another event, something like the Oklahoma City bombing, a high-casualty incident of terrorism that will be carried out before the election. And I believe it's going to be a perpetrator who checks off all the boxes for the Biden administration as

they're boogeyman. So it's going to be a guy who's probably a Trump voter, maybe with this stuff we've seen recently with this militia stuff up in Virginia. Maybe it's going to be some guy potentially superficially connected to a militia. I just believe we're going to see something really bad happen soon. And this just comes from knowing history, seeing event after event happen where we come to find out. Some of it was co-opted or all of it was co-opted or a lot of it was planned. And I just don't see, well, I'm looking at the outcome of such an event. If such an event like that were to happen, immediately the 50% of the country who wants to vote for Donald Trump or who just says they don't like Biden, those people will immediately be conflated with,

well, you're with the terrorist. You support the terrorist. You're like the terrorist. And it's the only way they can really demonize the electorate to such a level that we are all unpersoned. We're all going to be called just like the terrorist. And it's almost like I just know in my bones this is going to happen. And I know that I'm not the only one is Peterdale Scott, a legendary researcher. Aaron Good is friends with him. And Aaron Good had posted on his Twitter at beginning of this month that Peterdale Scott, thinks that a, what he called a deep structural event is going to occur before the election.

That's his kind of way of saying, like a false flag. And so this is what I've, the drum I've been banging for the last two years. I think this is going to happen. And I also know that when it does, we are going to know straight away. Okay, this is it. We'll know. And there will be those of us who will investigate it. But the way things are in our country right now, how terrible is.

It is and how everyone's just innocent or that is guilty until I've been innocent, especially if you're of a certain persuasion, it's not going to be good. And they're going to then bring on Jeffrey Tubin. Here's the expert. Here's the expert about how all the conservatives are terrorists, and they'll bring him on. Yeah. It's interesting to me that the 90s had this concerted effort to target. white groups, groups that were gathering together based upon white identity. And really, what's fun, what's, it's not funny, but what's ironic is they got,

they went after a lot of black militia groups too in the 90s. It just, um, you really don't hear much about that. But now it, it's, and, you know, when, when Waco was happening, you had, you had, You know, Timothy McVeigh was at Waco. He was, he went there to watch. There's an interview with him out there asking him, hey, what are you doing here? And you had this consciousness where people would, people showed up to Ruby Ridge and they protested the FBI and they, you know, they, they screamed everything possible they could at them. Same thing happened at Waco.

People were just like, you know, screw you guys. and now the apathy of, you know, it almost seems like it's gotten to the point where if somebody got set up in such a way now that even the Republicans, even good conservatives would be like, yeah, you know, he's probably guilty. You're right. You know, he, you know, because, oh, let's just, let's just check his Twitter. Oh, there's something I don't agree with. That's just a little too far to the right. He probably deserves it. He probably did it.

Exactly right. you're not going to see the level of grassroots opposition to what the feds, like what the feds were doing to the people at Waco with playing loud music and showing up in town and commandeering everyone and treating everybody with disrespect like assholes and, like what they did at Ruby Ridge. Everybody resented the FBI. They always engender resentment because of the way they behave. and if something were to happen,

I don't think you're going to see that because I think most Americans now have lost their courage and their bravery. They don't have any, and they're scared. And they're scared that, you know, what could I lose? You know, I'm going to get canceled.

They're afraid of those things. And people are not going to put their neck out on the line for it, but you guarantee the day it happens, I'm going to say, this is it guys this is what i've been talking about and i'm not going to be the only one there's i know if peter dale scott is on it um that other thinkers much better greater than myself are also on it and they're going to cover it uh but you're going to find a great

resistance to that coverage which if you go look at the Oklahoma city bombing uh anyone who became a researcher on that case in the 90s wrote books or articles or investigated it or interviewed witnesses. These people, in some cases, some of them are victims, they were equated with Tim McVeigh. It's like they were saying, well, if you want to research this or you want to say there are others involved, then you are no different than McVeigh or on his side.

And somehow in their mind, capturing the other people involved means you have to let the one guy you've caught go, I guess. I don't know. But if that was happening back then, when people were more willing to speak out, you can be sure it's going to happen if something else occurs. And we've seen weird things happen just in the last couple of years. You saw this Indian guy, Indian citizen drive a moving truck through the White House barrier, and all he's got in the back of the truck is like a brand new Nazi flag that he ordered from Amazon the day before.

And then you've got that guy in Nashville on Christmas who blows that thing out. I got memory hold. Who talks about that? No one talks about it. And when I looked at it, even a cursory look at it and saw that this guy had had the FBI contacting him a year before. The FBI was like I said it was at his house for some reason. And you see all that and you're like, well, we need to know more about this. This is obviously key.

What does the FBI know about this guy? Come on. So yeah, it's all been memory hold and they almost look like test runs or something like that nature. I just maybe I am, I could be completely off base here. Totally crazy. but best I can say is my honest opinion. My honest opinion is OKC Part 2 is coming. I think it's going to happen this year.

I think it will be before the election. And I think this is the only way Joe Biden gets out of 30% approval is by saying that anyone who doesn't like him is a terrorist. Well, I mean, you can see that just in the last six months that anybody who says, hey, maybe you shouldn't be bombing kids in God. immediately they're their Hamas supporter. They support Hamas. Exactly right.

They turn everything into a binary. And it's what politics is. It's especially what politics is in a failing empire. In a failing empire, politics becomes, it becomes friend and enemy. And politics is always friend and enemy. But, I mean, it couldn't be any clearer now that our ruling class is about friend, enemy. And if you are white, and if you can support yourself, and if you, God forbid, that you you can actually maybe even not live off the grid, but even live off the land a little bit,

I mean, you're a terrorist. You have to be watched. You're a danger to them. They need you to want, they need you to need them. And if you don't need them, you're, you're, there's there's something wrong with you yeah they're fair your fair game yeah if you if you don't just need uh the regime um you're not a person who feels beholden you're a person who feels your rights are guaranteed they're not given to me by anyone i have these rights and it's more like these people want to take them and it's going to come down to i think eventually americans are going to have to decide. They're going to have to decide how much longer we're going to put up with this and they're going to have to start calling things out. I just don't see any fixing this.

And Oklahoma City is what I stick to and talk about because I know it. But I can say that in my years of researching it, I never ever felt like I have in the past two, three years. thinking that, well, they're going to do this again. There's no doubt. I never, never thought of it that way. Part of that could be cynical. You know, you're young and you find out JFK was a conspiracy, but then you read some more and you read some more and you find out, well, it was also MLK.

And then you find out, you know, the USS Liberty or the Gulf of Tonkin never happened. And eventually, if you read, even, you know, you know, decent books, not talking about like a lot of crackpot stuff, even somewhat mainstream books, you will quickly reach the conclusion that most of the stories we have been told about formative events are false. And we need to have that in mind when the next formative event happens, especially one that's going to probably hurt Americans. And I say this, of course, I have no knowledge of anything specific. or anything like that. You know, I don't know anything about that. I just, I'm just reading the room and looking at history

and knowing what to expect from our national security state. I hope you're wrong, but, you know. I also know my history too. All right. Where can people find your work? So people can find my material on my substack. I've got a substack, which is Richard Booth. dot substack.com, my full name, Richardbooth.substack.com. And I have my essays on there that I write,

and those have published in the Libertarian Institute, Garrison Magazine. And if people want, they can go to libertarian institute.org slash okayc. And from there, access a great deal of news clippings, affidavits, transcripts, all kinds of research materials. If you want to see with your own eyes, you know, that this is all real and that this stuff did happen and was just memory hold. You know, I've got the material out there. Richard, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Thanks, Pete. It's great coming on. There's so much rugby on Sports Extra from Sky. They've asked me to read the whole lad at the same speed I usually use for the legal bit at the end. Here goes. This winter sports extra is jam-packed with rugby. For the first time, we've got every Champions

Cup match exclusively live, plus action from the URC, the Challenge Cup, and much more. That's the U.S. see and all the best European rugby all in the same place. Get more exclusively live tournaments than ever before on Sports Extra. Jam packed with rugby. Phew, that is a lot of rugby. Get Sports Extra on Sky for 15 euro a month for 12 months. Search Sports Extra. New Sports Extra customers only.

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