The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1096: Operation Gladio - Part 2 - Operations - w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

64 MinutesPG -13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas continues a series explaining the NATO project known as Operation Gladio.Thomas' SubstackThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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cupra and discover our latest offers cupra design that moves finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from vows wagon financial services arland limited subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Arlen limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. If you want to support the show and get the episodes early and ad free, head on over to freemam Beyond the Wall.com forward slash support. There's a few ways you can support me there. One, there's a direct link to my website. Two, there's subscribe star. Three, there's Patreon. Four, there's substack. And now, there's a direct link to my website. Two, there's subscribe star. Three, there's Patreon. Four, there's substack.

And now I've introduced Gumroad because I know that a lot of our guys are on Gumroad and they are against censorship. So if you head over to Gumroad and you subscribe through there, you'll get the episodes early and ad free and you'll get an invite into the telegram group. So I really appreciate all the support everyone's giving me and I hope to expand the show even more than it already has. Thank you so much. I want to welcome everyone back to the Picananos show. Thomas, how are you doing? I'm well. Thanks for hosting me. Yeah, yeah.

Let's get, uh, let's get part two of Operation Gladio going. It's been a little while, you know, I've been busy and decided to take a break for one episode and talk about current events. But, um, yeah, I'm, I'm eager for this. Let's do it. I think I left off talking about public diplomacy and talking, uh, specifically about Sir John Hackett and his, you know, and his conflict model, his predictive conflict model, those then later made available and marketed as, you know,

in book form, you know, as a bit of strategic forecasting, you know, like fiction. And I think I was discussing that to emphasize that degree to which, you know, conventional force structure planning returned in earnest, you know, not just in policy corridors, but it was very much at the forefront of, in the minds of public intellectuals. You know, people like Thomas Schilling, people, you know, like Hackett himself. You know, the emergence of deeper parodies and, you know, countermeasures against, you know, both, you know, long-range nuclear weapons platforms as well as theater-based weapon systems, you know, led people to realize that conventional forces had acquired a new relevancy. And obviously, there's a political aspect of that very much related to how to manage a potential occupation by Soviet. forces. And that's really what that's really what

gave sort of momentum to Gladio from something that was just sort of bandied about in in think tanks and various defense ministries and in the constellation of states that made up NATO. It became a real essential aspect of

war planning. for the Western Alliance. And I think particularly the experience of Vietnam, as well as some of these experiences in Latin America and Africa, you know, you don't want to wait until the onset of hostilities to develop what Frank Kitson called, you know, your counterinsurgency element. You know, you want that to be part of your force structure

in being. Okay. And also, especially in Italy, but in other states too, you know, there was a radical right wing

that were it not assimilated in some sort of formal capacity into the into the formal political and military structure.

the formal kind of, the formal sort of, you know, conflict readiness paradigm, you know, these people could have caused a whole lot of problems. You know, I mean, they did cause problems. I'm talking within the bound of rationality of cold world logic. I'm not rendering an absolute judgment on these people's values and what they considered to be acceptable owing to, you know, what was in their perception and ongoing emergency. but it was an odd sort of conspiracy of historical variables particularly in the final phase of the Cold War

that kind of like led to this being is something that was developed in earnest and taken seriously by people like a different paradigm with less binary possible outcomes and event of hostilities is not something that really would have it sounds something that really would have acquired legs, metaphorically speaking.

You know, and like we talked about command and control really would under the revolution and military affairs, which was a real thing. It wasn't just a propaganda work to intimidate Warsaw Pact. It wasn't just something that were college types or constantly looking for ways to kind of tweak not just force structure, but doctrine, like kind of penumbric doctrine. It, um, it, it, it had a real core of realism to it.

You know, um, the kind of the computing revolution and the emergence of true high tech, you know, at the very close of the 1970s into like the very, very early 1980s. Like, this change. changed everything. Okay. And America and NATO, they never had the same kind of rigid commitment, arguably inflexible commitment that the Warsaw Pact had, you know, to treating things, to treating battle doctrine almost like regulation and not deviating from that. You know, they didn't do that. But they were similarly interested in eliminating on certainties from the battle space in terms of operational outcomes, okay? And command and control, which also spills over into and dovetails with situational awareness, you know, up to the minute, if not the moment.

You know, this was a real thing. And one of the things that takes on an outside significance when you're trying to control, the battle space and a future conflict in that capacity is there's outliers that are unconventional in nature, okay, both in absolute terms as well as in according to the rationale of, you know, military science, okay? So you couldn't really leave these elements that were already existing and kind of coalescing, you know, in Italy and in the Benelix states. to a elected degree in the Bundes Republic like you couldn't just leave

these kind of resurgent or um vestigial fascists and national socialist cadres you couldn't just kind of like leave them alone and hope they behave themselves you know but then suddenly you know

when war arrives you know you have a problem with these people and And then while you're fighting the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact, you know, the outcome of which probably would have been decided within like 72 to 100 hours in the initial phase, I mean, you know, it just was a recipe for disaster to say like, oh, well, we're just going to like address this contingency when it emerges. You know, that's not realistic. So that was, that's something to keep in mind. You know, kind of like a very different initiative in terms of its underlying reasoning,

in terms of, you know, its application of force and in terms of its purpose, like the Phoenix program. I raised because people act like the Phoenix program is like this sinister thing. You know, there was nothing nice about it. It definitely blurred the line between, you know, civilian and combatant and it

pretty much flew in the face of what was at least formal precedent as regards the laws and customs of war and what is legitimate what and who is a legitimate target and who is not but

there's an organic quality to doctrines that develop incident two and then anticipation of armed hostilities Okay, so they're really... Those people who love going out shopping for Black Friday deals,

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exit 13. It's a Black Friday secret. Keep it to yourself. There wasn't some like sinister thing about surrounding Gladio it wasn't some shadow government waiting in the wings because oh the NATO was actually

you know occulted fascists and it's it wasn't that you know these guys were you know secretly indexed with the government and they were just like masquerading as extremists to kind of try and get a understanding of of how exactly how many

people in the population at large was sympathetic to these ideas and and then in turn could be mobilized. It was nothing like that. Okay, it was very organic. Okay, whether people agree with it on ethical or doctrinal terms or not, that was essential. And one of the ways NATO survived, especially after France bowed out, despite continuing to participate in a lot of command post-exercis for NATO, you know, was the nuclear question changed. things obviously but it was one of the the main thing that that changed was that a

NATO kind of developed into and one of the reasons that's obsolete today among many but NATO kind of developed into by about 1980 like late very late 70s early 80s it kind of morphed into this sort of forum to integrate and and optimize as of the several member states. And in so doing also kind of marshalling, mobilizing and optimizing assets that were just like intrinsic to the battle space, like literally natural features of Europe, you know, within the territories that constitute the alliance, as well as within spaces that were undoubtedly going to be, you know, the setting for, you know, the territories. for future engagements of a critical nature. You know, so everything from, you know, setting up logistical infrastructure to facilitate rapid reinforcement,

you know, in terms of, you know, homogenizing the gauge of railroad tracking, to, you know, making sure that the properly paved roads were, you know, abutted the essential like the essential choke points as it were where you know NATO was likely to be able to hold opt for you know for at least you know

48 hours or so you know it it it um what an aspect of this too was they utilizing the terrain um a lot of a lot of theater based nuclear weapons were actually based on on on farm land, you know, and getting these farmers to agree to that. Like, it took some out and out bribery as well as, you know, very kind of aggressive political finesse, and I'm sure in some cases, threats.

But, you know, the human aspect of ecologies, discrete ecologies within defined territorial spaces, I mean, that, there's not only an important answer to that, they may be the most important aspect. Okay. So people likely to become partisans in event of Warsaw-upak conquest, you know, these were people who already existed, you know, and kind of drilling them into a viable,

you know, stay behind military force or paramilitary force built around a kind of a kind of counterinsurgent cadre structure that they only tracked with like the overall

disposition of what constituted preparedness and what constituted adequate force structures to survive if not actually defeat Warsaw Pact

in a general war convention or otherwise you know so these uh these guys in the Italian social movement um you know these these these national socialist guys who you know already had um kind of a self-structure their own you know these um these uh these guys who were affiliated with the non-traditional concertive elements but like we're

very much, you know, engaged in the Cold War. Like, these people had to be brought into the fold in some way, shape, or form. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you. Even before you drive.

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you're talking about OSS or the the obvar the latter which had all kinds of problems and was shot through with with some out and out traitors but there's also some

you know there's some aspects of it particularly I don't know how intelligence agencies like break down what would be the equivalent of an order of battle. But there were company level elements, if that's a proper way to conceptualize it, who had no truck with Canaris, had no idea he was even, you know, conspiring against the fear and the party, you know, who were very much engaged in doing things like, you know, identifying Chetniks, that, you know, we're not just fighting the partisans, but, you know, we're also fighting other factions at Chetniks and basically found themselves, you know, adjacent to the Axis powers in theater

and what they wanted to accomplish, you know, and these guys are brought in the fold, okay? America, obviously, OSS and British Secret Intelligence, they were constantly trying to, they're constantly trying to identify you know French resistant types who they could insist you know were not actually communist and they were failing at that

in terms of ideological bonafides but that's not the reason why like de Gaul became such an important frontman to them it's not that these it's not these like partisan stay behind elements in France like just like love trolls de Gaul so much it's that

you know in the anglophone world especially he could be held out as kind of a a catalyzing figure that people would accept, you know, and when the reality of, uh, when the reality of, of, of the elements that, you know, supposedly he inspired and upon his, you know, stage, return to France, it would be the commander of it. I mean, often these people had like no trouble with them whatsoever, but, um, you know, it's the, it's the appearance, uh, that matters and the, the ability to, you know, finesse is that

people will basically accept it you know um the uh in 947 that's kind of a critical year in my opinion and in terms like the first real kind of the first real kind of like integrated NATO war planning or what became NATO um this this kind of like integrated operational structure sort of like emerged. You know, it was in 1947, in France, the United Kingdom, the Belac states, they

had commissioned, what came to be known as the quote, Western Union clandestine committee, which technically was just kind of like this academic forum of like military officers and conflict, military science types, but it was, its work was informing policy in a direct way.

It was like a direct pipeline to the several defense departments of post-war Europe. And one of the first things they did was create, at least formally, was create a joint policy on stay behind elements you know um and this was what was presented by the Europeans

in in 1951 after you know NATO had formally come to existence that this whole this format this clandescent committee it it was basically formally assimilated into in NATO around

951-52 okay um and that's when supreme allied commander Europe you know in other words you know the Americans they they established

their own kind of facsimile of it which was also like you know had jurisdiction over earlier incarnations such as the Western Union

Klandestine Committee they she um Supreme Allied commander Europe branded this committee

the quote clandestine planning committee and it was housed at the Supreme headquarters Allied powers in Europe so I mean this was taken very seriously you know and of course America at that time was

engaged in Korea in a very brutal war you know and not not just was America engaged against, you know, the North Korean Army, but, you know, they were engaged against the Chinese people of an army. Okay, this was a very critical time. The peacetime role, obviously, of the clandestine planning committee, you know, would basically to coordinate the different military and paramilitary plans and kind of conceptual paradigm. in the several states and adjacent partners states like you know Switzerland to Austria and then later France in order to both like avoid you know like duplicate committees you know that especially in military capacities at the command level at the general command level you can't have like as it said too many cooks in the

kitchen without real problems okay so the Supreme Allied command they were sending a message, like, look, you know, that's, that's not happening what we just described. You're not, you're not all going to, like, develop your own policy on, and how this is coordinated. There's going to be one policy. It's going to be an integrated command and control structure, and it's going to be treated basically like any other, like any other NATO branch combat element. Okay. there was two groups formed within this clandestine planning committee one of which was pretty much exclusively focused on communications

and homogenizing language fluency and familiarity with know, essentially the platforms, the weapons platforms, the command of control technologies, everything else, you know, that was agreed upon to be utilized. One of the weaknesses of Warsaw Pact was that, you know, German, like, Nostovoxo Army officers probably above the equivalent of captain. most of them had at least some fluency in Russian. Like most Russians did not speak German. You know, most of the Germans did not speak Polish.

You know, the, you had the, the Baltic people, a lot of them spoke like neither Russian nor German. You know, so there was this, um, this, uh, led to kind of like a house divided. And at command and control level, that's fatal. So NATO, you know, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, integrated their rank structure. You know, there's like formal equivalents of, like, like, what like an E3 is or like an 06 and everything. Okay. They, you know, they, it was decided, you know, like in what command, and many different commands, like different languages would be favored, like within that command based on, you know, the, the, the ethnic constitution of.

primary elements in theater but uh basically like fluency uh basic fluency in like german or english like was was essential you know um there uh there was an integration of uh like the main battle tanks used you know like uh back then uh it was less complicated it was far more brutal and perilous to like be part of a tank crew but it was comparatively like low tech compared to like we'd be used to but you know like they you know like american tank crews become familiar with you know like british tanks and vice versa and like both would you know become familiar with you know like german panzers that um were in heaviest deployment and things like that you know um so similarly you know um um the way the disposition towards stay behind elements and partisans was was homogenized,

you know, and brought into this homogenization process of command and control. And in addition to that working group that, you know, focused on communication and networks and everything else, there's another working group, you know, or committee, if you will, called the special projects branch. And that basically, it would war game different scenarios, okay? And it would try and determine, okay, like, what are the capabilities of these stay behind units? Like, what can they actually do? You know, what's their mission orientation in concrete terms? you know like what what are they what are they what are they trying to strike at you know like are they trying to

are they trying to index with civilian elements that can either be cajoled into cooperating with them or who are naturally disposed to be friendly to them anyway you know basically are they like a european vietnam kong except on the right are they are they basically like a reserve element so that when you know mass casualties occur like these guys can basically like rush to the front and fill the roles of regulars. Like, are they, is their function basically, like partisan attacks and terrorism,

you know, against East German and Soviet and Czech, who are occupiers or whatever? Have you recently purchased a new vehicle from Franken, Volkswagen? If so, you may be at risk for an exciting condition known as New Car Joy. Symptoms may include spontaneous smiling, sudden increases in confidence and uncontrollable urges to take the scenic route. If you experience any of these symptoms, don't worry.

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Visit drinkaware.com. And so the special project branched, you know, like clarified this stuff. okay um eventually this became integrated in uh in in 1957 and i think that's really when uh that's really when like nato came into its own and that's when still people were banning about especially people who did not want

especially people who favored like a demilitarization in germany you know like the united states and warsaw pact basically out of Europe. And their notion was, well, we can create our own collective security arrangement with, we quote, European defense community. You know, consisting like the Benelux states, you know, like

Germany, ideally France, you know, Italy, and the UK. And the idea was that it would be a totally integrated structure and it wouldn't represent like any one nation. Like one of the reasons why like the Bundeswehr, like their

uniform seems so like dull, and there's not even anything like about them that's like other than the fact that um cuff titles are still in use you can't really tell that they're like a german army but the whole the uniforms they adopted ultimately was in this era like 57 and um that was like deliberate because the idea was like okay this is like the army of europe but we've also got to like make it clear that there's not any quote-unquote like chauvinistic tendencies like a Vafa SS, you know, but where

we're kind of just like this like European defense force. And in a parliamentary committees across the proposed member states, the conceptually like it gained some some ground. But you know, it

proved basically unworkable, particularly after you know, the things changed in Berlin and it was clear that you know really after Korea in my opinion and some other things but it became clear that like the Soviets were not

the America had no more good faith credibility in the eyes of the Soviets the Soviets were never going to leave Germany okay and Berlin particularly wasn't just like the coveted sort of prize on the on the war map, but it was a thorn in the side of Warsaw Pact, just like Cuba was a huge thorn in the side of, you know, the United States. But it, that by, you know, by like 1960, 61, no, nobody was talking about a European

Defense Committee anymore, but, um, one of the things that, uh, one of the things that came out of kind of this experimental, like, military culture on the continent was the establishment of a combined the Six Powers Lines Committee. It was the United States, United Kingdom, France, Benelux countries, you know, all of whom, again, had been involved in developing a war plan and doctrinal paradox. for the stay behind organizations but um you know when when this um when this um when this six powers committee like formally convened um which became the quote allied clandestine committee and its final iteration of nine seventy six was the quote allied coordination committee um it literally its functions

like the way people described it you know I'm talking about you know top NATO grass as well as you know civilian elements you know like in the

in the Bundes Republic government who are like indexed with the NATO structure um they uh they uh they uh they uh

they refer to it specifically you know um The technical committee to bring state-bine organizations together and clearly define like their mission mandate for structure and all of that. Okay. What was the authority of a Supreme Allied command in Europe? I mean, it was basically godlike within its dominion, you know. That's one of the things.

I mean, when you sign on for NATO, you signed on to go all in when War arrived with Warsaw Pact. I mean, you also agreed not just tacitly, but in a very, what would become a very active, actively engaged capacity of, you know, not just allowing, like, theater-based nuclear weapons to be based. based on your territory, but like essentially allowing America to have, you know, control of these munitions. You know, I mean, it's just like one example. I mean, the point somebody the other day, like when the when these intermediate range

platforms, ballistic missile platforms arrived in Europe, and when platforms like the person too, which people find odd these days, but was, you know, the army had was it was an army weapons platform like at the folded gap um it was a luf loft that retained control over the launch mechanism it was the americans who retained physical custody of the warheads and you know if an order came down you know those war had to be married to their launch vehicles, but, I mean, obviously it was, it was America who had the final say on these things, you know. Um, but at, uh, the, uh, this was pretty openly talked about, at least within, within, within NATO command corridors. I mean, some of the language used was deliberately ambiguous, but it's not, it wasn't this like, eyes only thing where people would claim, like, it did. didn't exist, you know, which is kind of interesting. And that's why, like, when what became

to be colloquially and kind of flippantly known as, you know, like the years of lead in Italy jumped off. That's one of the reasons why a lot of the media establishment, you know, found allied command structures to basically be culpable. I mean, if you, that's a whole other issue. We'd probably get on that another episode. Like, what were the years of lead? Like, were these were these self-described, like, fascist? Um,

I mean, they were, they were allied with the Red Army fraction, the Red Army fraction, so. Yeah, some of them were, definitely. Some of them, it's not clear who they were, and some of them, the guys they arrested, it doesn't really track. It was like

who they could blame these things on. You know, but assuming, And as you know, but some of the subs probably don't. Like the claim was that, you know, this, this quote-unquote, like, neo-fascist terrorism, which killed a lot of people. The claim was that, well, these are the stay behind organizations. You know, NATO and these, you know, right-wing governments, they're directing these attacks to happen. so as to procure, you know, like a permanent emergency mandate, you know, to basically, like, militarize the country in perpetuity. I mean, that's not impossible.

But, I mean, the late 70s, early 80s, when you had the Soviet Union from a few hundred kilometers away, you know, like, pointing these like massive IRBMs at Western Europe you know that had multiple warheads that you know when they hit their target would just like devastate the entire country in the case of like these smaller states I mean like it's not if you want people to if you want to create some sort of like balance of terror at in you know at you know at scale such that, you know, it provides like a catalyst for martial law. I mean, you can, you don't need to kill 80 people in a train station bombing in 1980. You can say that, like, well, the Soviets have targeted us for annihilation.

And obviously, based on their deployment pattern, like, they now believe that, uh, that nuclear, that first use of nuclear weapons is, is perfectly acceptable as a means accomplishing their goals by by mygal force of arms I mean you okay there you go you know like the Soviets is going to kill us all if we don't have to build

countermeasures and and mass arrest people who are not willing to support you know the war effort when it comes like there's ways there's ways you can do it in epoch or could have done it

like you don't need to like pull off a spectacular you know series of bombings or shootings and like kill a few hundred of your own countrymen. Like that's not... And again, it's not impossible, but it just kind of defies credibility to me in the absence some more concrete evidence. There's so much rugby on Sports Exeter from Sky,

they've asked me to read the whole lad at the same speed I usually use for the legal bit at the end. Here goes. This winter sports extra is jam-packed with rugby. For the first time we've got every Champions Cup match exclusively live, plus action from the URC, the Challenge Cup, and much more. Thus the URC and all the best European rugby all in the same place.

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later, I mean, it's still in the Cold War. I don't know when it first emerged, but there was a document, like a study put out by Supreme Allied Command Europe, that, from the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe, it was titled Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers in Europe. It was titled Supreme Headquarters, powers in Europe problems outstanding with the quote standing group um there's a subheading number four titled quote special plans and quite literally it it it was um tailored to address uh like the deline the literal delineation of responsibilities of the quote clandestine services and it went on to say you know know, quote, the delineation of responsibilities of Supreme and Command Europe on clandestine matters, including, quote, pertinent definitions and organizations and principles for unorthodox warfare planning.

You know, so this was really at the forefront. And again, I don't, I don't want to go too far afield because this is already a dense topic. But you've got to understand the overall. as the Soviets approach to nuclear parity and arguably, you know, shot past NATO and specifically the United States, in terms of its strategic nuclear capability, yeah, like America developing countermeasures that, you know, characterized by deep parrot, what's called deep parrot. these, you know, arguably that kind of neutralized Soviet advantages only to smarter

and higher tech. But like regardless, so the nuclear weapons are off the table or not, even of horizontal escalation was like an inevitability, even if you could prove that. World War III was going to start with a conventional like combined arms fight

across a massive front. and casualties were going to be utterly horrifying. One of the reasons the tankers on the North German plane, which was mostly a British Army area of operation, contrary to the folded gap, which was patrolled by 11th or a calorie, black horse is like the lead element. These guys were totally known certain terms.

They were issued amphetamines on their own. regular you know you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna have our job is to hold for 72 hours and you're not gonna survive this but we will hold for 72 hours without sleep um you know and kill as many kill as many of Ivan's tanks as we can before we get overrun and we will get overrun you know and the thought was I was a thought I think it was pretty well grounded and based on

the inputs that were utilized which for the time was was correct within six to seven days Warsaw Pact that had reached the Rhine and around 92-93 when

the old Soviet archives that brief period where they were basically open you know to Western historian including Mr. Irving um it was pretty clear that the Soviets planned once they reached the Rhine to stop to reconstitute

regroup and refit and then presumably like demand like issue surrender terms to the allies and then you know like demand demand the allies demure and accept the you know the Soviet dominance of Europe so it was um even like a best case scenario you're you know you're looking at being overrun okay um and the only way to combat that you can't you can't combat that from the air okay you know the only way to

combat that is literally on the ground um you know um um you know um um um you know um um um in a way that essentially makes the, again, kind of like the social, political and military and paramilitary, like, ecology, essentially too hostile and too dangerous and too unstable, like for the occupier to manage. Okay. And again, I mean, this might seem obvious to some people, but it seems obvious for the reasons I'm talking about because that, that becomes. came this essential this essential aspect of um of war doctrine you know um says clandestine uh the allied clandestine coordinating committee um it created what was also known as the several quote allied clandestine coordinating groups and these guys would they they they liaise um on the purpose on the purpose personnel front with the NATO command elements down to like at least battalion level and probably company level.

These uh these these these coordinating groups were um almost exclusively staffed by uh you know men from from supreme headquarters, you know, allied, uh, forces in Europe. The idea was you know, again, to create a kind of homogeneity of thought and orientation towards the formal mission statement while at the same time kind of tailoring these efforts to

address and kind of satisfy the the local conditions in each of these countries, which varied quite a lot. You know, culturally, linguistically, you know, the terrain was different. Like, the way people viewed, the way people viewed like the eastern and the Russians differed. You know, it was, there was political, there was anthropological, there was, you know, sociological aspects how these decisions

were running. Now, in event of World War III, Supreme Allied Command of Europe absolutely intended and was meant to and was structured to exercise operational control

over pretty much every aspect of the member state for the reason. Without like micromanaging or trying to micromanage, you know, like unit oriented tactics because it's self-defeating. But, um, so in terms of like overall, um, in terms of like overall strategic orientation, there wasn't enforced homogeneity. But, uh, to coordinate activities such that we're talking about across like all different commands and event of wartime, you know, particularly where you're racing the clock,

because you basically have, you know, 72 hours to hold the Soviet Union at bay on the mainland resistance that's folded on the Northrowan plain. You're not going to be able to just like splendidly like incorporate this structure into in a pre-existing community areas. I mean, you're going to have to abide for those differences and for those discrete, you know, kind of sensitivities.

various things that might seem totally innocuous or ridiculous or whatever. You know, so I'm not suggesting this with some, like, well-oiled machine, but it was basically, I mean, that's kind of the best you can do if this is

if this is the mission orientation. You know, like the, you get the world as the world is, not, you know, like the, not a Tolaric utopia or everybody is, everybody privileges reason over passion and man, it's basically malleable and I mean, that's not the way things are.

You know, I believe, and this takes us back some years to it was after you know, the Supreme Allied Command elements, we're already

devising ideas on how to incorporate stay behinds into the order of battle and the war plane structure. Again, that, like, again, that, that, that kind of research began in earnest around 957. As NATO kind of evolved, and again, like as, as nuclear forces came off the table as, you know, both the primary deterrent and the primary kind of assault platform, you know, again,

conventional forces and political warfare took on and outside significance. And in 1972, a man named Vincenzo Vincuera, he's the man who was blamed and he used to be for the Petiano Massacre. on May 31st, 1972, Petiano is a suburb of Sagrada in Italy. Apparently, some anonymous call came in, you know, there's like provisional IRA style to the local police. The Cadabini, I think they're called, telling them to check this car, this abandoned car.

the car itself turned out to be an explosive like the whole thing was like wired with like I think plastic so when these coppers investigated it you know when they like Jimmy did door open like it exploded and you know killed a

I think it killed three of the cops and like the others were maimed but you know it begs uh there was more severe attacks subsequent some of which are bona fide mass casualty events but it does beg the question like why and it's not just uh people like howard zen and and with crank ideas uh you see like fascist under their bed it's reasonably serious historians who claim that like see like this is this is the fruits of operation and ladio it's like okay but like why was the motive of these guys doing this you know

I mean like I said like their claim is that oh well it was this part of attention strategy but it's like but again like you you don't need that when Warsaw Pact as as 23,000 nuclear weapons and thousands of them are pointed at a Europe at decapitation range. You know, um, it's kind of the same reason in my mind, like,

you don't need to like, blow up the World Trade Center and pretend al-Qaeda did it to like pass the Patriot Act. You know, that's not, that's not how things work. You know, um,

I mean, it's like, look at the COVID nonsense. So the government, like, murder 10 million people to pretend COVID was like this deadly virus. Like, no. I mean, like, it's, it's, uh, it's not really a propaganda works. And, um, people generally go along with it, you know, like it at face value. You know, and again, especially during the Cold War, there was peculiar exigencies. Due to history, students of history will know, like Julius Ebola, when he was arrested and indicted and he was acquitted, it was events surrounding these, uh,

years of light attacks. And they claim was that Evelah was some kind of like guru figure to like this cult of like young fascist partisans and so in some like in Chote way like he was

conspiring to kill people with these like terrorists, which made no sense whatsoever. And it basically got laughed out of court. But the perpetrators of the Petriano Massacre is alleged to be Vincenzo

Vincuera a guy named Carlo Sitchitunni and a guy named Ivano Bacacchino all these guys

were members of the New Order was Clover called the New Order The Full Name of it was the New Order. The full name of it was the New Order. scholarship center, okay, which was basically,

it was basically like a, a kind of, a kind of like neo-fascist cell, like intellectual type guys who were also going to like paramilitary stuff and things. They were big on like Julius Evala and stuff. You know, um, but like I said, it doesn't really,

like it doesn't really track. You know, Bocachino was in fact he he himself was involved in some of these events and he later was killed like in in murky circumstances during like a similar event you know some people claim that like well he was like a cop or like some intelligence asset that is possible or maybe he was just like a nut okay um vincuera and Cichitini

they were both sentenced to life in prison um for years uh Cichitini he fled to Spain like when the indictment came down

with the informational complaint I don't know if in Europe like they'd actually indict people or they afford people to process at least in a loose sense like but they I think their protocol was different but um

he uh he was finally pinched in like you know 1998 and then uh about a decade later when his health was failing like they they just like cut him loose for

compassionate release and it's like really man like you this guy's just like demented terrorist according to you when you're you're like cutting him loose for ill health I mean, like, the whole, the whole thing was strange. What's significant, too, is that, like, the new order and this whole, uh, this whole kind of, like, new order, like, like, think tank or,

like, intellectual kind of kind of cadre, going to think about it like that. Um, these guys were, uh, they were born out of the, the Italian social movement, which was a main, it was an openly, like, neo-fascist party, but it was a mainstream party. you know uh like musilini's granddaughter you know like she was uh she was like a public face of it you know um and in their traditional strongholds like people people like openly like celebrated and rep and rep that you know um like the new order was um something of a schismatic break off from that um um um um from the Italian social movement. Like I said, what I liken it to, what I liken it to,

it's an imperfect example, but, you know, like the National Front schism that led like, you know, the flag group, which was, you know, the traditional kind of John Tyndall National Front. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think National Front actually did some really great things, especially for especially for you know the

the downwardly mobile kind of like white working class whose communities really were devastated by you know the UK's sort of suicidal merceristic globalism but you know

the and like I said the Italian social movement itself is every evil in like sensibility. The newer order was very much more on like a national socialist tip. If that

I don't know if that makes any different people or not, but again, like I don't this whole narrative doesn't really add up. But, you know, the it's also too, like I don't I mean, how the regime is basically

speaking out of both sides of its mouth. It's like, okay, like, these stay behind organizations I'm not going to as far as to say that, like, well, you know, like, NATO created them. Like, you can't, you can't just, like, create al-Qaeda or whatever, like, idiots, like, Michael Morrissey. You can't just, like, create

some sort of radical, like, neo-fascist cadre as a statement element. Like, it's not how life works. You know, these tendencies develop very organically. They solidify and harden, and become, in some people's cases, like, extreme, only to, like,

you know, personal influences within their orbit who kind of feed on these people's, like, youthful energy that tends to outshine their capacity or self-reflection. But it's, you know, but at the same time, at the same time, the fact that these guys were,

for decades by the time this stuff was happening, they were not just fully assimilated into kind of like the NATO command and control structure, but they were considered to be like an essential part of it. So it's like, but now you can't control your people anymore and they're like blowing up cops. They're like you know, they're opening fire. They're ripping through full auto like at train stations and killing old ladies and everybody else

what happens to be downrange their fire. Like that doesn't really make sense, man. Okay? You know, it just doesn't. And not everything is a... Not everything's a science experiment and, you know, not everything is a... Not everything blends itself to codeable inputs

where you can, you know, derive like a concrete answer on the human condition and, you know, war and peace and stuff like that. I so I think that that's there's a lot of

even to this day, there's like a lot of smoke around these things. Like, really for no reason. You know what I mean? Like the men who were really instrumental in these activities are long dead. You know, it's like I could say well, this might like embarrass the government. It's like, okay, if you want to take the, people

take government seriously anymore. If they did, it's like, oh, okay, I mean, there's, there's, there's a laundry list of, like, ass and I in grievances, like, people hang on, you know, like, the government. You know, it's like, what's, what's one more? You know, I don't, I don't really understand the discussion around. I mean, I understand intellectually, you what I mean,

is I continue to kind of stupefying me that people don't see, like, see through how, like, fucking, transparent this is oh wow we've been going for an hour haven't we yeah let's get into the years of lead next

man if I start that now we're going to be here like another hour yeah no problem at all is that agreeable I don't want to fuck with the program sounds good to me okay great yeah thanks me plus I want to crash soon because I got frankly I got a big day tomorrow

oh yeah you do but uh do plugs real quick yes sir You can always find me on my website. It's Thomas 777.com, number 7, HMAS, 777.com. I'm on Twitter. I got a pretty active timeline. It's real, capital, R-E-A-L underscore number seven, H-M-A-S-7-777.

I'm on T-R-R-R-R-R-E-R-E-R-E-L. on Instagram. I, my substack is the best place hit me up. I got, I got a lot of video. That's my podcast.

There's a lot of just kind of like random audio with me talking to people. We got a very active chat. That's been hopping a lot lately. That's real Thomas 777.7.7.com. If you peak, I include like some of my

plugs in the video description, that would be great, man. You'd have my gratitude. Of course. Yeah. I have your, um,

and I have your the the merch the new merch you have and everything included there no that's awesome yeah thanks so much yeah I'm very blessed that our our buddy here creg I have no idea to mock that stuff up man and he's got real ability you know yeah I'm very it looks good it looks really good yeah yeah it looks really good it looks quality yeah yeah no it's um people really like it and it makes me happy man that we can deliver stuff that people like you can actually want to like wear on their body you know and you actually got retweeted by kandis owens yesterday yeah i know that's why there's been like a deluge of i it's weird man it's i it's weird being like internet famous in some small way like i mean okay i'm fine what it i don't

think about kansas owens like i don't really mess with their content or anything whatever i mean if she wants to retweet me that's fine i but uh yeah it's kind of nutty all right Thomas. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you, buddy.