The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1118: Operation Gladio - Part 3 - The Conclusion - w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

60 MinutesPG -13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas concludes a series explaining the NATO project known as Operation Gladio.Thomas' SubstackThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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There's a few ways you can support me there. One, there's a direct link to my website. Two, there's subscribe star. Three, there's Patreon. Four, there's substack. And now I've introduced Gumroad, because I know that a lot of our guys are on Gumroad, and they are against.

censorship. So if you head over to Gumroad and you subscribe through there, you'll get the episodes early and ad-free, and you'll get an invite into the telegram group. So I really appreciate all the support everyone's giving me, and I hope to expand the show even more than it already has. Thank you so much. I want to welcome everyone back to the Picanuena show. Thomas is back, and I think this is going to conclude gladio today right it's long time coming you're muted yeah i'm sorry yeah i'm just call up uh my outline here real quick no problem yeah no i think um oh yeah here we go i already got it up um yeah like i said man um just to advise the viewers and subs like i don't i don't feel great so like forgive me if i repeat myself or like lose my place but i think we're

I think we're good. Something I want to get into today, and like I will, as we get into the topic, Gladiol created an interesting ideological culture that is relevant to, like, what we do today. It's not just a strange footnote of history. It's not just something that gives rise to conspiratorial narratives. It's not just, you know, this kind of artifact of Cold War,

grand strategy and military planning and and you know related specifically to the nuances of political warfare and and all that you know like I said I don't want to get ahead of ourselves but you know ground zero for gladio was really Italy okay and Italy Italy absolutely lost the war like like all of Europe did you know the Vatican was hit incredibly hard like figuratively and literally you know like Vatican 2 was basically like the Catholic

leadership hierarchy reinventing itself to be agreeable to American hegemic and like that in the Nuremberg world war. Okay. And the rest of Italy Italy was a key. I mean it was like the fifth largest

economy I think the end of the 70s on this planet. and um Italy uh Italy and the Benelux countries they were they were they were like NATO's literal flanks okay I mean obviously like the Bundes Republic

the Bundeswif you know the US army you know specifically the armored cab and fuel artillery um the British army on the North German plane um they they were they were the Scherpunk of like the main line of resistance and the German border but the Italian army in the south and the

Benelux military elements in the north they were just as essential so there was this weird situation with Italy because it wasn't occupied like the Bundes Republic was it was part of NATO but there was also this like overtly

fascist culture that was still active there like they were sending people to parliament you know they and it just kind of had to be tolerated because it's like what are you going to do. It's like they had a cold war, they had a government. They had like a permanent incumbency. You know, they were,

they hated the communists. They were like 110% finding the Cold War. It was kind of like something like Washington had to tolerate. So, but of course, they decided to kind of like try and purpose that towards Cold War ends on the political side, not just the military side. And that was really like the core of gladio. You know, there's obviously gladio elements in, in the Benelux countries, like in France as well, even though France wasn't, you know, part of the formal NATO structure.

There was a... There were gladi elements of a sort, like, in the Bundes Republic. Oh, that was like a tricky thing. You know, and it was weirdly handled. But Italy, like, the core of these guys was Italy. And also, you know, like the Italians, the Italians have, they contribute, like an outside. sized in an outsized way to European cultural things. And like we've talked about, you know, like, I mean, going back to the, to the inner

warriors, you know, like, Muslimese march on Rome, that was a huge development. You know, it was this right-wing revolutionary tendency that was basically like returning to serve, like over the bolster of revolution. And weird as when you seem to Americans, like art and like art. artistic endeavors and aesthetic things that has this that has like an outsized

cachet in Europe like to this day but you wouldn't think of America of some painter or even like a novelist or a filmmaker like you wouldn't think of you wouldn't think of him like putting something in the stream of a cultural commerce and it like a movement

developing around it or coming to like symbolize some kind of movement but in Italy that's very much the case it was and it is you know, and the Cold War was no exception. So you had these guys in Italy running around who constantly kind of like the Corr Gladio, and like some of them are very compromised.

They were basically like NATO agents, and that's like just what they were, and they didn't really give a fuck, like about what the ideology was beyond, you know, Cold War imperatives. But you also had these guys who were, you know, who were basically like accolades

at Julius Evala, or who in the early days had you know fought in the Italian army like with the Axis or you know they were guys who came to Gladio because they were agitating

against communists you know or they were or immigrants or you know whatever their kind of core issues were and they got swept up you know by like Italian

Carboneri or or political police and I like okay look like why do you make yourself useful like this is what you're going to do. You know, um, so that's,

that's, that's kind of like the, that, that's kind of, that was kind of like the situation on the Italian street. You know, particularly in Rome, but kind of like all over the country.

And I can't remember I got into this or not. I refresh my recollection, but I, um, if I'm repeating myself, call me on it, but, what kind of brought Gladio to people's awareness.

I'm talking in terms of, like, public was the Pediano Massacre. I can't remember we got into this last time or not, but basically on May 31st, 1972,

there was what characterized as a neo-fascist terror attack. There was an anonymous call placed to this Carbonary barracks in a suburb of Cigrado. And the caller said,

you know, hey, check this car, check this abandoned car, you know, it's an IED. And when they did, and it, like, it exploded. It's like they were trying to investigate it. And it killed these three cops. The perpetrators,

or the guys who got brought up, who got stuck with the charges on grounds of it, they were, this guy named Vincenzo, Vincueira, Carlo Sitchatini and this guy Ivano Buccuccino and all these guys

are members of this of this group called New Order The official name is the New Order Scholarship Center It was basically like a think tank And it wasn't a political party It was kind of like

Ellen de Ben Loz Greece GRECE or Grease you know it was um it basically was what it appeared to be it was like a research group you know and when um when um you know what where they who was funding them and where they were getting money from wasn't exactly clear but there was a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of like money going into it and the italian social movement which was a mainstream political party despite they they considered and consider themselves to

be the direct descendants of the national fascist party. And they kind of are. Like, it's not kept. But the New Order Scholarship Center, they came about based on like a schism in the Italian social movement.

Which is interesting. Like as the Italian social movement kind of approached mainstream respectability in the Eisenhower era, which happened to like a lot of like right wing parties in Europe. And during that era, too. I mean, that was when like Francis Yaki was like writing speeches for Joseph McCarthy

like very unusual stuff was going on due to, you know, what amounts to like an enduring emergency. You know, this was the era like the Berlin crises and things. You know, people were convinced that Cold War is going to be able to be hot. Become hot. This was also in a bunch of guys with real

trigger time. You know, like basically the entire first SS, like Leipstandart, they were rotting in prison. Sep Dietrich had a life sentence. Yac and Piper had the death penalty. A bunch of these guys got released during this era. Like, not because NATO wanted to be nice and not because Washington decided they wanted

to roll back, the president they'd established at Nuremberg. But they're like, you know, we're almost certainly going to fight World War III eminently, and we need, you know, we need officers and NCOs that we actually fought the Ivins. And we can't be going around arresting people for being right-wing. That's not going to work. So, kind of the mainstream of the Italian social movement, Arturo Michelini, who was like their hancho, like he was basically a moderate for the time. He was like a right-wing moderate.

He wanted to click up with the Christian Democrats, with the monarchists. You know, basically he wanted to join kind of like the mainstream coalition of like center-right parties. and um these guys like bogachino and like Vince deghatta and like Cichitini they were like uh-uh

like that's not happening like they're forebears I don't think they were involved at that time but you know these there was these schismatic guys you know who were um

who were uh who were very much like evolving acolytes and they're like that's bullshit like you're not you're not gonna turn us into some like some like regime of proved like part of the parliamentary apparatus. You know, so these guys found a new order.

Okay. And there was a, and this got, this was gonna formalize in 1956. There was this big meeting in Milan. That was the Italian social movement in Congress. And this guy, Pino Rowdy, who was the, he was like kind of the representative of what became like new order.

He basically stood up and said like, you know, that you're disgracing the honor like the men who died like fighting the Americans and the communists. You know, how dare you? You know, you're trying to hijack us. You know, this is Jewish. You know, fuck you, basically. So, like, that was that.

So these new order guys were kind of like, I remember everybody's shitless anyway. Like, I'm not saying they didn't plant his bomb. Maybe they did or maybe they didn't. But it served multiple purposes to claim these guys did it, even if they did not. And I love Italians. and Italy, I'm not saying bad things about those

as people, but Italian justice is not exactly rigorous or it's going to do process. You know, especially during that era. If you don't like the Italian government, wait five years, you'll get a new one. Yeah, that too. But that's kind of the context

and other right-wing movements in Europe. And this is a very different circumstance. It wasn't like now there, you know, like I'm always talking about, these literally mentally retarded people who like show for Zelensky and stuff because they're like too stupid to be alive but somehow they are they're like they're like brain eating amoeba or something but um um but in those you know like that nowadays there's literally like the regime there's globalism and then there's people resisting it you know whether there's salafis who are not good guys nor our friends whether they're in iran whether they're in russia who are our friends whether they're you know, but I mean in the Cold War, there was all these

bizarre intrigues and everything was characterized by Cold War dynamics and phenomenon. So like even if you didn't want to take a side, you had to insinuate yourself somehow into that paradigm.

Like otherwise you were just pissing into the wind. You know, so, and plus two, you could play people off against each other. You know, like if, you know, and, um, in the 50s and 60s and then post-a-toned, you know, in the 1980s. I mean, basically, if you were approached, if you were a partisan, whether you're in Italy or the, or the Benelux countries or the UK,

and you've got actual bodies in the street, you can approach by some intelligence guy or some NATO type. I mean, you can basically take turns to him. You want to start behaving myself. You catch them in the corner of your eye, distinctive by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range.

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Or like a lot of drugs I can sell or something You know and there was like limits to this obviously But you know it was a rarefied circumstance You know a new order also There's stuff with disseminated throughout Europe And in those good days You know 50 60s 70s 70s 80s You know print

media was the only thing was the only game in town you know so and what you could find especially especially based on the censorship regime not just in the boonis republic but in the uk and other places you know you had to take like you had to get what could be smuggled in you know and um sometimes it'd be in english sometimes it wouldn't sometimes it'd be like an english translation that was imprecise but a whole lot of this material um relevant to the right we're relative to the old resistance in Europe was coming out of Italy. You know, New Orleans's publications,

they very much valorized the Third Reich and the kingdom of Italy and their war dead. You know, in the independent state of Croatia and like all the exos powers. They also had links with the Boer Republic and Rhodesia also. Like they had strong support there.

You know, it was very anti-mobile. He was very Strasserite. You know, and despite what people think, Strasser had a, he had a very nuanced view of things. I don't agree with his perspective. But it wasn't just, oh, he was a socialist, but he also didn't like Zionism. It was nothing like that.

And he was not pro-Soviet. He said that, you know, Europe has to fight some kind of concord with Moscow, no matter what the government is there. And that's the way forward. But he basically, the reason why the standard of the black front. It was the hammer and sword. It wasn't just because it looks cool. You know, he's, the stressor, his, the strassarist's whole point was, we've got to return

to like medieval origins. That's, you know, not, not in some ridiculous way or, or not in some Luddite way, but he's like, you know, this, this devolved, um, localized governmental structure is what's natural to Europe. You know, yes, we need a national government, but it's got to be totally federated and not just a name only. You know, like they, down to down to like the township level like they basically wanted like local sovereignty and um for matters that you know impact you know like the folk community or like war and peace question the basic security like that's that's what the national community ossifies as one but otherwise you know it's it exists in this totally like organic kind of like spontaneous and devolved capacity and that's basically what the third position was up

during the entire Cold War. And the third position, as we think of it, it does not exist anymore. You know, John Bowden made that point, too. So if you're like, oh, I'm a third positionist. Well, that doesn't make any sense in America anyway because there is no American third position. Okay?

There was a, there was a Taffian right-wing position. That was America first. We shouldn't be fighting the Cold War, but that's something totally different. And in the 21st century, they're just not a third position anywhere. Because there's not the binary paradigm. There's globalism and everybody opposing it. That's it.

And those people opposing it, they have different motives for opposing it, some of which are, some of which, you know, are, like, rhyme with one another, some which don't at all. But there's not two positions. There's one position, and there's the resistance. this is actually important it's not just something that

academic types and people like me are into or like to contemplate and pontificate that well people people may I think sometimes

people think that you say stuff like that just to upset them because it upsets them they you know they think they're a third positionist and they in what way? It's like talking about being right-wing or left-wing, and you're talking about the early 20th century in Europe.

It's not the same thing as in Europe as it is in the United States. There's a lot more nuance there. Well, there's also the same guys who think that, like they think that they think that their right-wing, if they agree on foreign policy with Chuck Schumer, Ben Netanyahu, Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi. It's like, I don't care if you don't like the Russians. If you're ethnically cleansing Slavic people on orders of a Zionist

for the purpose of dismantling Ukraine and Russia as discrete ethnocultural entities, you're not right-wing. You're some kind of fuckhead who's killing people for the globalist regime. Like the fact you wear like a little swastika or listen to black metal or because you're like some like drony Satanist doesn't make you right-wing. makes you a fucking idiot. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive.

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Dunebeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunebiog, Kush Faragea. You know, like if I, if I, like, rob a liquor store when I'm high on crack and say, you know, God save the king. That doesn't make me a monarchist. It makes me a crackhead who robs liquor stores and says weird things.

You know, it's kind of the same thing, man. Like if Nambola started, like, wearing swastikas I was like, Nambl is like, too fucking beast. I'm gonna go like, like, fucking kid, because it's like beast. Like, they literally would be like that. You know, like, but that's a different, I don't want to ran about that and get my blood pressure up. But, um, the, uh, but, you know, yeah, I didn't, I mean, um,

but that was basically like the situation in Italy. And again, like, uh, there's, the massacre, these, these, these carbonetti, like, that, these guys probably, I don't think they wanted to kill the police. police but I think they definitely were like guilty of the crime charge despite whatever propaganda might have been milked out of it by by the Italian government because these guys these guys are serious like the new order guys they jumped the gun a little bit a lot of them didn't have practical experience as partisans like the like the Roeth Army fraction did you know

they were properly trained in that stuff off, but, you know, they were serious. They were, like, willing to engage in direct action. But as time went on, they kind of, they became something of an elite organization. You know, they very hard. They always held themselves out as a Vanguardist tendency. You know, as time went on, their kind of quasi-paramilitary aspect became, more like a high speed and incredible um you know at peak they had about 10,000 members and

these guys uh this is only campaign for nuclear disarmament was a big thing in Europe which itself is like a cover not just for like um you know like like Soviet and wasn't like money was coming into fund this stuff but it's also a cover for like real radicals you know and and communists and anarchists of various stripes like New Order they go out and kick the shit out of these guys when they'd have like protests and these like mass demonstrations you know so that that caused

the government in Rome to kind of like raise its eye around going to okay like let's not just like smash these guys and then I think that had a lot to do with them kind of being the core of gladio beyond like what I already suggested it was only just

only the peculiar conditions of Italy and and nuances they're in but it's like okay these guys these guys will get dirty, okay? You know, they're not afraid to do that. And they seem to be thirsty for action. You know, so they're not... We can be advised, especially if we...

If we sent some special operations forces types to kind of bring them up to speed, these guys will probably be, like, looking forward to some kind of Soviet assault where they can go out and play cowboys and Indians. It's kind of like a permanent storm of stuff. But... later on, a substantial percentage of these guys

rejoined the Italian social movement. But there remained kind of like, I think some of that too was them like hemorrhaging off people who weren't really up to the task of doing extra legal stuff. It's complicated. but um there's a lot of historians and not just mainstream historians but like you know uh like vanguardist types like us you like read this says like oh there was a second schism i don't think that's true but that's kind of complicated i in the time we got left i don't want to i don't want to go on that tangent deeply but um

the uh and and not coincidentally the new order's motto was our honor is called loyalty I'm not going to try and pronounce the Italian variant of that, but obviously that's, you know, my, yeah, I said Troy. My loyalty is my honor, which is the Vophanes-S model. The similar organization was a double-headed axe, you know, like me and you, like, we look both right and left, but, you know, the Ross, the folk community is the center, and, like, we represent that as a vanguard, you know,

and we fight both elements from within when they threaten us. But we will act as like the Schwerpunct of either if it advances, you know, the interests of the folk community. An important side note to this is what became with the British National Front, which today, and I can't say for sure what the state of the London Street is or anything. I read the national and so if our English and Ulster friends and Scottish friends if I'm wrong about this please weigh in and don't be offended

but I don't think I'm wrong I think the National Front the British National Front not to be confused with the French organization which is a lot more mainstream and regime approved I think the National Front these days is basically a website or like a social media it's got some social media presence but like even there like nobody

not even there's probably like a couple hundred people who fuck with it and don't care about it but it was a big deal in the 70s and 80s they were the fourth largest party they were the largest party after the Lib Dems in the UK for a minute okay

they were founded by A.K. Chesterton who had been who had been affiliated with Mosley he came from the League of Empire Loyalists and the first British National Party and he was related to

he was related to G.K. Chesterton he'd been born in South Africa during the Second World War his family led back to the UK. But it this was during the

time when Anna Powell was really kind of carving out like a dissident tendency in the UK too. But the national front, it really got cloud when John Tyndall kind of came to the helm. And Tyndall was an interesting guy. I highly recommend his autobiography. It's really, it's good stuff. But, you know, Tyndall, Tyndall's big thing was, you know, stop non-white immigration. and he campaigned on a platform of repatriate these people now, which absolutely would have been possible at that time.

That wasn't, he wasn't just like talking shit. Like, we're going to build a wall, and it's going to stop all these Mexicans because it's a wall. It was like nothing like that. It was like, you could do this if the political will was there. You know, and this is one thing that's totally going to hell in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland is relevant to this gladio with third position. I'm not just on a crazy tangent.

But Tindle was basically. basically like a main, it was a pretty mainstream, like white nationalist, empire loyalist type guy. He's like, why are we pussy footing with the IRA? Fuck these people, smash them. Why are we getting flooded with these third world immigrants? Like why, you know, why, how come, you know, why are the, why the Tories like talking a lot of shit?

But we're basically getting state socialism and, and we're not, you know, we're not even a competitive economy anymore. Um, but something started happening was. than the National Front. And the NF2, they'd have these mass rallies in London and, you know, in Liverpool and in Belfast, although it hit Belfast a little bit later. And I'm getting ahead of myself, but the guys who came to constitute the West Belfast Brigade,

like C Company of the West Belfast Brigade of the UDA, Johnny Adair, who was an infamous guy and not an admirable guy very much a gangster he was a national front skinhead and he was in the rock against communism scene and so were all his friends and these guys became sea company okay and like they were all about the national front so on the one hand like comedy teen and these guys other than other than um the mid elster uv which became the lvf under billy rights rain. You know, people say like when I was an outlier, like the far right and loyalists don't have any common ground. That's not really true. Okay, like, but we'll get into that in a minute. And this totally relates to the third position of schismatics in Italy, which in turn impacted the

National Front, which in turn found an audience in Ulster, specifically Belfast. But what happened in the National Front was this schism happened between what was called the political soldier faction and what was the flag group? Because the National Front zine or newsletter was the flag. Okay.

But essentially, Tyndall leaves a national front in identity, too, when he forms the British National Party, which in turn became the B&P of the 90s where Nick Griffin was at the helm, which is interesting because Griffin was part of the political soldier faction, but Airgrid, operator

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visit optionscar.i.e. today. The National Front split during this time, in proxing when Tyndall left, okay? And the official National Front, which was the political soldier faction, they started associating with this guy, Roberto Fiore, who I believe Griffin actually lived with for a time, not in some weird way,

but like they lived in like the same rooming house a bunch of like right wing guys um it was more like their age hues basically but the official national front or the political soldier faction they basically are like why are we worried about preserving the monarchy

like why are we worried about trying to bring the UK back to you know as it existed between you know like the reign of you know the men of the prime leadership of Disraeli and, you know, through like Edwardian days to, you know, basically probably like when Ramsey McDonald became PM, it's like, why is that like our model?

You know, he's like, we got to start looking at ourselves as, um, as, uh, as political soldiers. You know, uh, we got to start viewing, uh, you know, America and its client regime in London as our enemy, just as much of the communists are. They started making overtures to Gaddafi, because Gaddafi would, he'd support elements that he thought would advance the goals that, you know, Gaddafi was very much Warsaw Pact adjacent, like 110%. But he was an unusual guy.

And, like, my friend Big D, like, in, you know, the first time I cut Con and whatever, I mean, there was no Rook. and he was talking, you know, he got swept up in the indictments when when Jeff Fort, you know, was, and the Rukans were taking my room Kadafi. Which Fort then talking spent on dope to put on the street. And Gadhi's like, fuck this guy, he put a hit on him. But, you know, like Big D said, he's like, the, a lot of the Rukin leadership was all about that. But so were, like, these third-positioned guys in Europe, okay?

And, and, of course, the, like, the flag group, you know, they were like, this is bullshit. You know, you don't, you don't, you don't associate with non-whites, without radicals, you know, all of that, okay? But as the National Front was doing that,

um, the, uh, you know, and, um, and this kind of stracite stuff was, was being, like,

widely disseminated, at least within, like, right wing circles. Um, you know, at this time, like,

1986, when the two wings of the party formally split, um, it was probably about, they probably about like 5,000, like, like, hardcore members, like, paid dues and they were, like, right, like, on record and all of that stuff. And about, uh, probably about 3,000 of them, like, like, stayed with, like, the mainstream national front.

But 2,000, like, clicked up with, you know, like, the political soldier, like, official national. Front um um political soldier wing but they had you know in the UK only here like if you got a former play if you know according to political party like you pay dues

you know it's like a membership organization and you got supporters who aren't at all involved in like the membership side of things so despite like what seems like paltry numbers for like a protest party that's actually pretty good for the time

And like I said, these guys could get a crowd in the streets in London, particularly if they were, you know, if they were, if they were, if they were clashing, you know, with the campaign for nuclear disarmament types or, or like radical left types. Because like people didn't like those types. You know, they just didn't. You know, I mean, at, at end of this day, I think of the man, I realize London has changed dramatically since then and since I was there in the late 90s. But I'm sure it's kind of like Shytown. There is kind of like both a silent majority type element that gets mad when they see that stuff. And a lot of these non-white people, whether they should be there or not, it's a different question. But a lot of them don't like that shit either. But, you know, so, and plus, it's doing the National Front, even, it's early iteration, you know, under Tyndall, it did stand, it did contest, it did contest elections. but it viewed itself as a vanguardist tenancy.

When it did, that changed really after Tindle left. They decided they wanted to become almost like a mainstream party in some ways. You know, like a mass membership organization. This is one of the reasons for this schism, I believe. Because for something like, for an organization like that,

like that's fatal to it. You know, it's not just that you've got to adopt a vanguard as posture if you're in the United States or the UK or the EU these days like in those days even when there's kind of more room to participate in formal processes you you couldn't you couldn't just try and like reinvent yourself as kind of like the dissident trees or something like or it it wouldn't like just despite like sheer value you would be diluted into into becoming an effectual like regardless of the fact that, you know, there's not real social capital between an organization, like a million members or something.

But in any event, and that was a big thing. The political soldier faction, they refuse to stand for a contest elections. But bringing it to the Northern Ireland situation and kind of how Gladio, which in turn, kind of create a rise in third position, which is, in turn impact on an active conflict on the ground in ways unforeseen. This guy named Andy Tiri. He was born in Belfast. You know, some poor family.

He sounded like an ex-British Army soldier. He grew up in the Loyalist Heartland on Shango Road. And his family and many others, he had like moved to Bally Murphy. and then knew Barnsley, like, when his dad needed work. Like, you know, because among other things, in the late 60s, there was, like, a huge recession. You know, across the UK, but, I mean, Belfast was especially hit hard. And when the troubles kicked off in 69, the family, they got ethnically cleansed. Like, they got attacked.

So they go back to the Shagel. Tiri is an ancient Scottish name. So I'm sure, like, the Teries are on the shit list of the, of the provost, anybody else, like, when it first jumped off. Yet, um, his roots could be traced to the earliest days, the altar plantation. So, I mean, this guy had, like, loyalism in his DNA, okay? Um, I'm not saying this good or bad. That's a fact. I mean, it's just a fact.

But, so Tiri clicks up with, uh, he first clicks up with the UVF. And they liked him because he was serious and tough. and he was literally from the Shanghill Road and his family had been attacked by either the provos or adjacent vigilantes. But Tiri looks at the UVF and he's like, you know, these guys are, like the UVF's

whole notion. First of all, I mean, you know, it was this second iteration which came about in 65 and which Tiri joined. They were very, very selective. They looked at themselves this direct action element whose job it was to kill

the IRA. Like, yes, they dropped a lot of civilian bodies too just to terrorize people but their idea was we're not a mass membership organization we're not a vigilante grouping you know we're an elite element we're a counter terrorist element you know we attack the provos and we kill them you know teary's old thing is like look like my family but my family got murked and and like kicked out of our home you know we we need somebody to protect protestant areas from this kind of thing You know, so the UVF said, you know what, that's not what we do. So Tiri joins the UDA.

Well, first he joined the Shankill Defense Association. And there was a bunch of, quote, defense associations that got set up in Protestant hoods, especially in interface areas. And basically, they'd organize on, like, quasi-military lines, you know, and, like, vigilantism, whether it's here in the American South or whether it's an Ulster. That's just like what we do. You know, that's just what Ulster Scott does do.

Okay. As these defense organizations like started street fighting with their Catholic neighbors and with the provos and with other elements, they started getting coalesced into a single element,

which became the Ulster Defense Association, which had peak I think had about 50,000 members. And UDA's notion, they weren't outlawed until 1992 because they incorporated above board and they said we're a defense organization.

And like in an event Dublin intervenes, we're going to go to the rifle and we're going to attack. Or an event, you know, we get sold out by London. We're going to fight. You know, that was their whole deal. And UFF was the current name.

for the direct-to-action element, which was Ulster freedom fighters. Okay, those are their shooters. That's what they called themselves. And they claimed that they weren't the same organization. And a lot of people on the Provo side, as well as just kind of observers are critical of how this whole thing was handled by the Crown. They say, like, well, you know,

UFF was very much like in part of Crown proxy. And that's why they just let it do its thing. That's not the whole... It's more murky than that. Okay. But Tiri, he developed a reputation for two things. He was a guy who kind of raised hell within the organization for like strongly heterodox ideas. And he was, he was very, very tough.

So like the men respected him, even those who thought that he was kind of spinning off into crazy territory. I said, well respect. That's just a fact. Um, he, um, theory, kind of the zenith of this tenancy. In May 974, there was the Ulster Workers Council strike.

And Tiri knew a bunch of these guys in like the, in the Belfast and Ulsterwide labor movement. Because he'd been like a shop steward, like back in his like days as like a factory laborer. You know,

um, so he was somewhat close to this guy, Glenn Barr. who was the strike leader. So like the UDA in those days, they had like a very socialist bank. You know, and like the, the Worcouncilststrike

like basically like shut down Delfast. This was still when, you know, like the UK was an economy relying on a national industry. This like really, really fubarb things. So, Tiri got this reputation as like this kind of like labor leader and like hero of the working man.

Like what she, was. That wasn't Cap. He was those things. But he also was like this like rabid loyalist. So I like raised the UD's profile because like people there before had been like these guys are just like a much like Yaku

vigilantes and killers and like sectarian wackos. They're like huh, maybe these guys are like actually like serious people or are and whether we like them or not. They're going to have like a serious impact on how the crisis resolves in Northern Ireland. But Tiri,

He was a big strassarist. He was, like, reading the kind of content that, like, the new order was putting out. He was, like, reading, like, political soldier stuff that the National Front was putting out. He took out... He started putting out essays in, like, the UDA magazine about, we got to push for an independent ulster. Like, Ian Paisley's a bastard. Like, fuck these politicians who are trying to, like, piggyback on the fact we're fighting the war. you know,

Terry famously banned like Ian Paisley from like this one of UDA meeting. Like he physically is like, you like pushed him back as like, get the fuck out of here. And that made a bunch of people really upset. They're like, you can't do that. He's like, you're going to do what the fuck I want.

You know, what are you going to do about it? You know, so maybe he had more balls in good sense in some ways. But point being, this is like when the third position like came to Ulster, which at that point was like, get key conflict cycle. Okay.

So that's kind of when, and people started like connecting the dots. I don't like mean like, you know, like the man in the street. I mean, it's like academic types and these military sociologists. And these guys were very much kind of on the public affairs and psychological warfare side of special operations.

They're like, what's happening here? Like maybe this isn't like a great thing that this third position stuff is like spinning off from what was a very manageable and constructive, you know, um, mission profile in Gladio. And I believe that was the, the earliest stuff that's super critical of Gladio.

It kind of got, it kind of went into circulation again, um, during, um, during, uh, the, uh, the premiership of, um, of, uh, it was the Italian guy who,

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hair and all like. Burlesconi, yeah. Yeah. He, um, Broliscone was part of this weird, like, quasi-Mason lodge that people, and, like, a bunch of these guys and, like, they're, like, you tell us. Like, oh, that's part of Gladio.

So these kind of Infoors-type guys and, like, other kind of people like that. They started circulating on something, like, gladio. Like, it's just, like, a big conspiracy. Like, not, and, like, a lot of, the kind of they were dropping, that come about in like the later 70s, as people were kind of like saying, like, Gladio is a terrorist tendency, and here's why, look what was happening in

Belfast, you know, look at these cops who got blown up in Italy, like, look at all these bad guys who are, you know, they're fascists, they got crazy ideas, they're sitting around reading creating stressorist propaganda. That's kind of like what brought it into and kind of into the conscious mind of some of these people.

And this is actually important. You know, it's not, I realize I got like a strong research interest and things and like no in Ireland, but that that that, um, that,

that may, that it's significant for what we're talking about. And, you know, like I said, too, like, as it later on, after Tiri was killed, you know, this kind of third force in loyalist paramilitarism, or third way, rather, third position in paramilitarism, that kind of endured, man. And like I said, like I put Billy Wright in that camp, even though conditions were different by the time. he became powerful on the on the street and uh but this guy uh teary's buddy was this guy name sammy duddy and uh one of the there's a um there's a there's a conflict resolution outreach center in belfast like name for duddy which is interesting but he was a guy he's a guy of reputation as like a thinker in the uda and um a lot of these uda guys are very committed

into their politics, but a lot of them are kind of like brawlers and like roughnecks and and like action-oriented guys. They were the kinds of guys were prone to like discussing political theory with you. You know, but, you know, teary and a duddy absolutely worth those kinds of guys as well as being, you know, very, very, very hard dudes. But that, the Terry he was one of the guys who found the quote the new ulster political research group

um they became famous or within um conflict study circles because they published this paper called beyond the religious divide

and it reiterated the call for an independent Ulster or at least like a devolved, a truly devolved political structure to be implemented and finding some way to make peace with the provos in some sort of like organic capacity, which was

really, which was really interesting, I think. But that, you know, he, this really, this really, if you're looking, people want to know what the real world impact was of gladio and whatnot.

Like that's, I mean, beyond the fact, there's a series of insane murders in Belgium that people think was gladio adjacent. I don't think that's the case. We can talk about that in another. I mean, playing with the idea of doing some content on, like, the big, like, conspiracy theories. Like, the things that we, the ones that at least think are worth addressing. You know, and aren't just, like, stupid. but that would be the time to take up something like that. But that's basically what I have on Gladio, man.

And then like just like as an addendum or an epilogue, you know, this, people got to understand too, you know, the original mandate of special operations forces, it wasn't to train Navy SEALs to be like direct action supercommandos, you know, who deployed a landlocked country, and get on target of individual guys who are thought to be, you know, Taliban operatives and, like, penetrate our targets

and then kill them. That's, like, not what they were for. Like, special operations forces, as Kennedy envisioned it, as William Odom, who was very much big army, but as he, you know, he had, he was instrumental in NATO war planning,

the way he envisioned in their role in the force structure, it was when Warsaw Pactover runs us we're gonna parachute or glide in you guys who look like the people in theater and talk their language are going to click up

with these gladio guys on the ground and you're going to train them on how to do things operationally and you're going to lead them and you're basically going to play Red Dawn in occupied West Germany or in Italy like that was the idea you know, it took time for this going to develop into a mainstream idea. And like by the late 80s, like, yeah, everybody took that for granted.

But this was viewed as weird and crazy and dangerous and shady, pretty much by everybody. And that's one of the reasons it's green berets. Like, nowadays, like, the sphere parked of the army of Special Operations Forces. Until the 90s, people looked at Green Berets. as you're a weirdo, you like killing people, you're probably a fascist and you're creepy, and you will never get promoted above like Colonel

problem. That's not just like something in Rambo movies. That was like the way it was. Okay? And it wasn't clear how in a general war this would actually develop. Because it never you never know when you have a novel concept. Don't

be wrong. Like this idea of a special forces was absolutely correct. That was a very forward-looking idea. And it was a very ballsy idea. And it was absolutely the way Army Command Europe should have been looking at things.

But it was not something that people felt comfortable with. And of course, there was a concern, too, what if these guys, like, go native? Which was entirely possible. Okay?

But that's where a lot of this kind of strange stuff came from in terms of Cap about gladio being this conspiracy. I mean, part of it was just typical lefty stuff about, oh, the government is actually fascist and doing all these bad things. Like the government is terrible things, but it's not because they're like secret fascists or something, obviously. But a lot of the concern about this kind of stuff, that's where it came from. But it did, despite the fact that, you know, World War III never came, there was a direct impact on the politics of Europe. And even in conflict zones, like Northern Ireland, and those guys who constituted that the core of these tendencies that came out of Gladiot, we, they, are part of what we are. I mean, if you're somebody who, you know,

is, you know, finds common cause with me, I mean, I'm not, I'm not speaking for anybody else, you know, when I say we, but, you know, so that's, you've got to know, you've got to know your own heritage, not just, you know,

uh, in terms of the ethnos and, and, and your familial lore and your, your, your race and your nationality. Like, you've got to know, like, where are these ideas that you, um, commit to where come from. And that's part of it. I hope that wasn't too scatter shot. Like I said, I don't, I think we can

wrap up now because I don't frankly have much else and I'm not feeling good. So forgive me if... Yeah, go ahead. Not a problem. I have two questions. Yeah. One, were you thinking of Mark Dutro when you talked about the serial killer? He's another one who's also

affiliated with that. No, these guys in Belgium, they pulled these high incident robberies where they'd store them like a grocery store or something. Not even like a tart that made set. They'd say, this is a robbery, empty your pockets. Then they'd take, like, the manager and make them open the safe. And they take, like, like, you quote him, like, $300 or something.

Then they'd kill everybody. And witnesses and see them, like, loading into this van. And it was guys with, like, glocks and H&Ks and, um, stare, like, military weapons, like, wearing gloves. who were like in shape and it's like these guys are killing like five they're catching murder liability for five bodies to steal

like a few hundred dollars and they did this like six or seven times like they were never identified but guys doing that kind of stuff like got like like three to six guys and show up in like military gear with like balaclavas or ski masks this is a

robbery no one's going to get hurt but then they kill everybody and a lot of people like, these guys were gladio operatives, you know, trying to scare people. But it's like, why would they be doing that? It's not like subsequently the government of Belgium's like, this is martial law. It was just like they were doing this and nobody knew why. The government was being weird about it, definitely. So people are like, oh, no, they were just training for, you know, like on target direct action mission.

It's like, that's not how you train people. And if they were going to do that, you know what you do or what you would do? you'd say this is a trap house see if you guys can get in there kill everybody and not die like that's how you do it you wouldn't say there's some pensioners and like

women and kids shopping for groceries like shoot them oh and nobody has any weapons like that doesn't make any sense but um I'm not feeling well so I'm having some brain fog but I'll I'll um Dutro's another one though and that case also makes like no sense

but um all right well then I'll let you um I'll let you get go in here. Yeah, just do quick plugs. Yeah, man. Thank you, Pete. I've got a lot of content in the can for my pod and

people like my homie, Jefferson Lee and like my friend Anthony Ramondo, they've been like helping me with all this stuff, which is awesome. So there's a lot of fresh stuff on my substack that's where the podcast is and other good stuff. It's

Real Thomas 7777.7.com. I'm on so media at real capital R E a L underscore number seven lowercase H-O-M-A-S-7777 I'm on T-Gram and Instagram my dear friend here at Craig he puts out like branded merch that we make because I just like stuff that I think is cool because I'm kind of like a t-shirt guy and like a clothes guy if you're include that like in the description. I can never remember like what the

what the website is. But yeah, that's where I'm at. And I promise, I'll be better in a few days. And again, forgive me if this wasn't up to this enough, man. No, this was all good. This was good. There was a lot there.

I'll include everything that you asked. All right? That's great. Thank you, Pete. All right. Talk soon. Thanks. employers did you know you can now reward you and your staff with up to 1500 euro and gift cards annually completely tax-free and even better you can spread it over five different occasions now's the perfect time to try options card options card is ireland's brand new multi-choice employee gift card packed with unique features that your staff will love it's simple to buy easy to manage and best of all there are no extra fees or hidden catches visit optionscard.com.com today.