The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1129: The Spanish Empire 1492-1659 - Pt. 5 -The Papacy's Involvement - w/ Paul Fahrenheidt

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

61 MinutesPG-13Paul Fahrenheidt is a husband, father, podcaster, writer, and founding member of the Old Glory Club.Paul joins Pete to continue a series on Spain's Golden Age. In this episode Paul gives an overview of the Papacy's involvement with Spain and surrounding countries.A Country Squire's NotebookOld Glory Club YouTube ChannelOld Glory Club SubstackPaul's SubstackPaul on TwitterPete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Antelope Hill - Promo code "peteq" for 5% off - https://antelopehillpublishing.com/FoxnSons Coffee - Promo code "peter" for 18% off - https://www.foxnsons.com/Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's Substack Pete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump Dunebeg. Search Trump Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunebiog, Kush Farage. If you want to support the show and get the episodes early and ad-free, head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support. I want to explain something right now. If you support me through Substack or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that you can plug in to any podcatcher, including Apple, and you'll be able to listen to the episodes through there. If you support me through Subscrib Star, Gumroad, or on my website directly, I will send you a link where you can download the file, and you can listen to it any way you wish. I really appreciate the support everyone gives me. It keeps the show going. It allows me to basically put out an episode

every day now, and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate. I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two, even three a day. And yeah, can't do it without you. So thank you for the support. Head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanjano show. Paul Fahrenheit is back, and we will continue with the Spain series kind of hey don't Paul I'm doing very well mr. Pete thank you for having me back on I'm very grateful that you have once again given me the chance to talk about Spain and all this it's been a little while since we did a an episode of this but it's it's been a very busy election season yeah it's uh trying to keep up with everything that's happening is

kind of hard but um yeah you said that we're going to uh talk about uh one of my favorite subjects today but not not the brighter not the better side of it for some part so go right ahead tell everybody what we're doing yeah so if the listeners will remember the table of contents episode that we did previously what we discussed for this episode which is episode four episode five counting the disputation it's episode five but what we're going to be discussing today right is actually not Spain because in order to understand the position that Spain and the Spanish Empire and the Habsburg Empire, this is where the empire part of the Spanish Empire comes from.

In much the same way that the empire part of the British Empire comes from being Emperor of India and you cannot understand the British Empire without understanding the British Raj. You cannot understand the Spanish Empire without understanding the Holy Roman Empire. And you can't understand the Holy Roman Empire without understanding its history, particularly in relation with its creator and patron sometimes in the papacy. And so when we were talking about the analysis we are going on with this series is world systems theory, specifically from the Christendom world system as the world system immediately preceding the sort of United Nations world system that we live under. And the comparison is an apt one because the papacy actually played a very, ended up playing a very similar role as to what the United Nations does today. And this is actually part of the part of what we're going to be talking about today.

So we're going to be talking about, we're going to unfortunately be doing something that I said we wouldn't do in this series, which is we're going to have to, in order to really even begin talking about what led to this. because you can't talk about the final centuries of the Christendom world system and the contemporaneous rise of the Spanish Empire without understanding the various cracks in the foundation that led Europe to this point, that resulted not only in the Protestant Reformation, but in the circumstances which brought about the Protestant Reformation. And as well as, I guess you could say, infighting within the Catholic world, even those countries that did not become Protestant, there was various competing interests within the Catholic world, most notably between the Kingdom of France and the Holy Roman Empire. This goes back a ways. This very much goes back away. So in order to properly understand this,

we need to go, I don't want to say go back to the beginning. We don't need to go super, super far back, but we do need to go back about, I'd say 500 years or so. So the relationship between the emperor and the Pope served a very interesting role within the Christendom world system, right? So Mr. Pete, if I could make a comparison that might infuriate some people. Within the UN world system, the globalist world system we currently live in, the United Nations, is the, in theory, highest arm of sovereignty. It is above all nations.

It is the set of international laws which is higher than every other nation on earth. But NATO is the military arm that backs it up. Everyone knows that NATO and the United Nations work hand in hand. They are one in the same. They are inseparable. right NATO of course is backed by the United States which is the first of the various legal entities that make up this world system and it is the stick that keeps everyone else in NATO in line and NATO is the stick which in turn

keeps the rest of the world in line for the UN are you following me so far I'm following okay so within the Christendom world system the Pope and the pap as the head of the church with apostolic authority in a extremely Christian paradigm was the highest spiritual authority and in many ways the legal authority all law found it sort of at least all moral law found its origin within the within the faith of Jesus Christ which the Catholic Church was the earthly representative of right this was the this was the paradigm within the Christian world system, the Holy Roman Empire, which was a collection of various, you know,

semi-autonomous states underneath a single, underneath a single sort of revolving emperorship. And there was different ways of selection. At first it was, at first it was a dynastic thing, you know, one family would become emperor and then they would pass it, and then another family. If that one family died out, it would pass. to another family through. And this, of course, resulted in chaos that was not resolved until the Golden Bull of Charles IV, if I remember correctly, which basically created

the sort of Europa Universalis for the Europa Universalis for electorate system of how a Holy Roman Empire was selected. Holy Roman Emperor that was. The Holy Roman Emperor was, you know, that's kind of like the Byzantine Empire. It's kind of an after-the-fact sort of, you know, read back on to the history that occurred. Much like the Byzantine Empire call themselves the Basileum Romanum or the Roman Empire, the Western Emperors, Charlemagne, Otto the Great, were considered the exact same thing as that. They were considered as though they were, like Charlemagne was considered as though a new Caesar had been crowned in the West for the first time in a long time.

You know, despite the fact that Justinian had attempted to reconquer the Western part of the Mediterranean. But it, you know, everyone also kind of understood that it wasn't really the Roman Empire the way it used to be, but it kind of fulfilled the same role because this, this, this, this sort of, what is it, this tie between the Christian faith and this idea of a Roman Empire begins with Constantine, begins with Constantine and the conversion of the Roman Empire and the Christianization of the Roman Empire as time went on because the early church, at least in the West, now the church went to various other places, not just into the Roman Empire, but the early church in the West started shaping itself, you know, utilizing par-we talk about parallelism a lot. The early church was a really good example of this.

The early church started shaping itself in parallel to the political entity which it found itself within, which was the Roman Empire. Rome had a provincial system of governing. It had a whole similar provincial system with its priests, with its governors, etc. And so the early Christian church mirrored this. It established similar, it established its own districts in the same places. You know, bishops were usually in the same cities that provincial governors were. And this was a very effective system, especially as the government hemorrhaged, the Roman government hemorrhaged authority. And Roman citizens would more and more and more just start going to the Christian bishop or a priest because they had a sense

of legitimacy or at least a sense of impartiality and justice. And decisions would be made that were far more satisfying than the joke that was the Roman legal system at the time. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive by design. They move you even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range for Mentor, Leon and Teramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Cooper and discover our latest offers. Coopera, design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria.

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Which is very similar to the joke that is our legal system at the time. But fast forward this a little bit, right? Otto the Great re-establishes the Holy Roman Empire because Charlemagne was only a only declared

emperor, but after he died, it kind of goes away. But Otto the Great reestablishes firmly the institution that becomes the Holy Roman Empire, which the Pope confirms. All right. Now, in order to understand the relationship of the papacy to what would then be called the empire, you need to compare it to, frankly, the power that was right next door that also called itself the roman empire which was byzantium bisonthium also had a church structure within its you know legal polity however that church structure was very firmly as it you know as it kind of became when constantine converted the empire it was very firmly under the emperor in um what would later become orthodox christianity although this is prior to the schism, but not very far prior to the schism.

The church in the Byzantine Empire was very much subordinate to the will of the empire. Now, this resulted in far less conflicts between civil and religious authorities. On the other hand, it also resulted in far less evangelization, because what started happening was, is the emperor of the Byzantine Empire only really used the evangelization of the Christian faith as a means of statecraft, right? You know, the Slavs were converted, yes, but that's because the Slavs were the primary neighbors of the Byzantine Empire and were various military threats and also had access to various commodities, which the Byzantine economy ran off of. The Byzantines weren't exactly proselytizing the near east. They weren't trying to take the, I mean, you know, they were requesting help against Islam, but they weren't, they weren't like exporting missionaries by the hundreds, by the thousands,

the way that the Western European powers would eventually end up doing. That's not what they were doing. So if you compare this to the papacy and the Holy Roman Empire, the papacy, The papacy is a separate institution from the emperor, from the empire. Now, the papacy theoretically decides who is crowned emperor, but for the most part, it kind of became a rubber stamp, because prior to the first thing we're really going to talk about, prior to the Gregorian reforms,

which occurred from about 1050 to 1080 to 10, which is done by Gregory the 7th, Pope Gregory the 7th, if I remember correctly. Prior to this, there was, you know, the, the word Catholic meant the same thing that it does in the Nicene Creed, which meant just there's one church of Jesus Christ, but there was very, very, very little centralized, exercised authority by the Bishop of Rome and the papacy, because, as Western Rome fell and these Germanic tribes came in, and you had all of the shifting in land and in, you know, kingdoms in what was once the Western Roman Empire,

you had this flurry of Christian missionaries going out into Francia, going out into Britannia, Hispania, going into like, you know, what's now Germany. and they were just converting. It was very much the same thing as what occurred within the new world. There was no real rhyme or reason to it, no real organization to it beyond. In the new world, there were monastic orders, but within that, those monastic orders weren't very tightly controlled,

which is why the Jesuits were able to spread so far and so fast. So, yeah. And in this period about the fall of the Roman Empire, the establishment of Western Europe, there wasn't really any central hierarchy. There were bishops, yes, and there was a church council, and there was a series of church councils, and certain bishops had much more authority than other bishops in certain areas, and there were apostolic seas, and there were, you know, there was a kind of a vague hierarchy, but there wasn't a lot of command and control.

And really, it wasn't super effective for there to be command and control, because the empire was collapsed. All infrastructure was more or less shot. The best people making decisions on the ground were the people who were on the ground making decisions. And you could also argue that this is why Christianity spread so quickly throughout Western Europe was simply because it was almost this emergent phenomenon

that had very little direction at all. And, you know, so anyway, Anyway, I've kind of been going for a little while on that. But in about 1050, right, in about 1050, the Gregorian reforms start to get implemented. Now, yes, it starts with Pope Gregory II. All right. And this is because, right, this has a reason. There's a reason that Pope Gregory kind of calls a papal, sort of, you know, calls together all of his advisors within the papacy, right?

Because there were some significant issues with clergy and clerics throughout pretty much the entirety of Europe, right? There were, this was, like, there were issues of, issues of what was called simony, which were priests charging money to do certain tasks to do, like to perform marriages or to, you know, this is very, very much like illegal today. I believe within the Catholic Church, but you can't, this was rampant at the time. There was all sorts of sexual licentiousness going on with many priests. There was basically this was enough of a problem that Pope Gregory the 7th decided that something needed to be done about it. And so what he does, what he does in an attempt, and also additionally, various priests are kind of utilizing their authority as justification, as ammunition, as assistance for various civil authorities around where they are.

And this is because the papacy actually in many places in Western Europe, prior to the Gregorian reforms, did not have any control. over who you know in some cases over priests being appointed especially not bishops um in germany for example the holy rhone empire bishops were appointed by the civil rulers in whichever area that they were in um i think something similar was happening in france and and even in in ireland um you know which wasn't even like which was half civilized it was like almost the semi-tribal place, bishops were appointed by clan authorities. So this was, and there was no, and in some places the papacy did control whether bishops were appointed.

But it was a very uneven system. And it was very difficult for the papacy to retain any sort of continuity of authority, any sort of, you know, centrality of moral instruction. of biblical instruction, et cetera. So Pope Gregory decides to start implementing these reforms. And one of those things, one of those things that they claimed that is kind of kicks off this whole episode is that the Pope and the papal C in Rome had the authority through apostolic succession

to regulate the selection of all clergy within the entirety of Christendom. All right. Now, today that seems like, oh yeah, well, within the Catholic Church, yeah, the church controls every, every priest that is, that is in the church because, you know, it's a hierarchy. It's, it's, it's church hierarchy. It's ecclesiastical. It's it's separate from the civil authority, right? unless we live in a theocracy right and and that wasn't as much of a thing in the 11th century and it was not a piece of political power that the various civil authorities but especially the holy Roman Empire now there was a battle about this in England as well that that's kind of less important but within the Holy Roman Empire this This was outrage.

The civil authorities and the emperor had decided, had declared who the priests were going to be, who the bishops were going to be, who was going to fulfill every single, you know, what we today consider a church office. That was a very significant piece of power within the Christendom paradigm because within the sort of mental geography of your average individual, you know, every regime, right, has its sort of myth of legitimacy. Is that what it's called from elite theory, myth of legitimacy? Yeah, I don't know if that's the exact phrasing, but it definitely gets the idea out there.

Yeah, whatever the exact phrase is, I'm sure someone's going to say it in the comments. But basically what I'm saying is that every regime has a claim that it is the legitimate regime. And this claim is usually a moral one or an ideological one or a religious one, right? And the most powerful regimes and the longest lasting ones have religious claims, as we have found out. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the door.

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There's Ouschardtow, Ewanahe, on aqueeigh-Leghaw and people tariff in Tashdie. There's a word of Cooaghan. Follam, no more, in Ergrid Pongahy. Um, and you can honestly even argue that there's no such thing as a non-religious claim legitimacy, you know, because our current world paradigm is to compete, right? They've got their own state religion with, you know, trannies and, you know, other groups of people and black

women as the, as the, as the source of moral authority. It's interesting. I was talking with someone today and we were talking about how you get demonized for being a great man. Like, You know, no one can, I'm not calling Trump a great man, but he's definitely somebody who talks like, you know, like he's trying to build a legacy. Like he's trying to do something great for people and everything like that. And how that's verboten nowadays. And but it's, it's not verboten if you're doing it for like marginalized groups, like trans people or gay people or some kind of black trans. you know, pediatrist or something like that. We discussed that today. It's really odd how we've reached that point, not to derail us and everything. I just got reminded of it is how you're not allowed to be for every, you're not allowed to appeal to the masses. You're not allowed to be a populist.

But you can be, you're not allowed to be a hero, but you can definitely be a hero. for this, you know, for the pets of the regime kind of thing. Well, and that's the, what is it? Like, that's their founding, I don't want to say their founding myth. But, yeah, it's their founding myth. Their founding myth is the Civil Rights Act in 1965. Yeah, the Civil Rights Act of 1960 work completing the work that was begun in, you know, 1939 with going to Europe to save Europe from, you know, the evil meany past.

And obviously, like all religious stories, right, it gets read back into the entirety of history. You know, obviously, like, I'm not, obviously it's a false religion. We're all seeing it's a false creed. It's not true, but it doesn't have to be true to be a religion, right? A religion is just something that's done repetitively in a reverent way. the Christian religion is a religion but it is not the only one. Regardless, I don't want to go too far down that one, but yeah, it's pretty much the same thing, right? And a regime lives and dies off of its ability to maintain legitimacy.

And, you know, I'm not going to go into that. But suffice it to say, within the Europe of, of the 11th century, the legitimacy of all civil authorities was based upon their adherence to the religion of Jesus Christ and to their, you know, to a lesser or greater extent, their good graces to the Church of Jesus Christ. Now, the Church of Jesus Christ was not as of yet synonymous with the papacy as an institution. However, it was trending that way. Right. And, you know, because, you know, with the conquest of the seas of Alexandria and Antioch by, which were the two, because the, I think Rome was one of three initially, that were the three highest one. It was Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch. Those were the three highest. But when Antioch and Alexandria were conquered by the Muslims and subjugated, that left only Rome. Now, later on the business. teens would claim content, Nopal was just as high, but that's a later innovation and a lot of people in the West didn't really care to live under what the Greeks had to say about it. But by the papacy claiming that it had the right to select the priests throughout the priests, the bishops, heads of monasteries, anything, this created a significant political, tension with the Holy Roman Empire, and this caused something that would then later be called

the investiture controversy. All right, so the Gregorian reforms, done with good intentions, done initially to, and there was another reason behind the Gregorian reforms. The papacy, you know, from the initial foundation, you know, it wasn't always what it sees itself as now. But the papacy had started becoming a sort of autonomous thing with a little bit of temporal authority within the center of Italy. But it also had this open door to this sovereignty, this ultimate sovereignty over all nations being the head of the church, right? You know, the vicar of Christ, the arbiter of, you know, it meant to, you know, in a good read to keep the peace amongst Christian nations and to resolve disputes between them.

But that wasn't as affirmed of a legal concept yet. The Pope did not want to be subordinate to the emperor the same way that the patriarch of Constantinople was subordinate to the Byzantine emperor because there was this different, like this different idea of illegal authority in that the papacy could be the final authority, the sovereign above sovereigns, the way Jesus Christ is the king of kings, the papacy can be the sovereignty above sovereignties. And the Gregorian reforms is what really starts formalizing this legal conception of what role the papacy can play within the geopolitics of Christian nations within the West. It was not something that the emperor was too happy about for a variety of reasons, But first and foremost, because this created this question of sovereignty, right?

The Pope and the emperor were the two pillars that held up the Christian world system. The Pope was the spiritual authority, the religious authority, the moral authority, and the legal authority, because law, all law comes from what that society sees as God, right? which I guess unfortunately means that law in the United States sees we the people as God because that is where it derives its authority although some may argue the so help us God is where they derive their authority so maybe there's more than one way to read it

and maybe that can be decided by a future American sovereign later on hopefully for the better but the empire was the political authority, the military authority, the civil authority, right, like the implementation, you know, the way that NATO is the stick that keeps people in line, is the alliance that, you know, protects the consensus, the legal order. it's the same way the emperor protects the pope in theory but when the pope in the papacy decided to start you know exercising more influence over how the church functioned outside of italy the emperor did not like that at all so this caused you know the investiture controversy which was as you know if you look it up it was a it was a conflict between the empire and the pope over who could appoint bishops very specifically there was more than one invest in

controversy there was you know one in england um but you know in essence it it there was there was like like the emperor would march armies into italy to intimidate the pope and the and the pope would release condemnations of the emperor and you know henry the four had his very famous crawling through the snow on his knees for seven days to get forgiveness after the Pope X communicated him. And there was some more, there's some more, but it ends in 1122 with what's called the Concordat of Verms. Right. The Concordat of Verms was a sort of agreement, right, that basically stated that while every bishop appointed must swear an oath of loyalty to the civil authority in the

area where that bishop was appointed, the church has complete authority over who gets appointed as bishop. Right? So bishops, yeah, if you get appointed, you have to swear an oath of loyalty, but the church gets to decide who is appointed. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon and Terramar, now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2,000 euro.

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small at Airgrid Ponga Hei. And, you know, this was a net gain in authority for the papacy and a net loss and authority of the Holy Roman Empire. And it would only continue as time went on. Now, prior to this, the Emperor was doing things, like Henry III was doing things like marching into Rome, finding three popes after now that was admittedly that was because of benedict the ninth you know if you look up benedict the ninth you'll you'll see what i'm talking about he was

kind of a reprehensible person um but he sold the papacy various times there were three and so henry the second marched in put an end of that but he installed a papal candidate that he wanted and so obviously there was some reason for the papacy to fear what the Holy Roman Empire was going to do, what the emperors were going to do in relation to the papacy, in relation to, you know, politics interfering with what, you know, the papacy believes should be a separate moral arm from civil affairs, as opposed to what happens in the Byzantine Empire. But the Concord out of Verms decided enough of a peace for this controversy to be resolved for a time. layer up later on and but you know the empire didn't really regain ground but there was this this

really bad habit as i mentioned previously of you know emperor henry the third marches into rome and basically kicks out three three people all claiming their pope and just installs his own candidate you know with with totally political authority right this sets a very dangerous precedent because this was this was this was something that any emperor you know was like like the idea of any popes right you know of you know claiming the illegitimacy of a papal election and having a whole bunch of like plucked cardinals that magically appear somewhere declare that you are in fact the real pope and then going to an emperor who has a vested interest or or another civil authority who has a vested interest in installing you as pope and saying that the

the current pope is illegitimate. And it really, it leaves hanging open. The center of all of this, the center of all of this is to understand that this crisis, this conflict between the pope and the emperor, was who is the sovereign? Who is the sovereign? Who is the emperor, the highest sovereign

because he's the highest civil authority and is it like the Byzantine Empire, where the Pope is, under him like the patriarch is under the you know under the Byzantine emperor or is the papacy with this legal theory that they have claiming you know just as just as Christ is above all of the nations of Europe is the papacy this sovereignty of sovereignty is it this international authority and if it is this international authority must it preserve a sense of not only independence but in some cases supremacy and even possibly a political

political circumstance, or at least independence in a political circumstance, over the various kings and sovereigns and civil principalities of Europe, including the Holy Roman Empire. And so the popes, the popes did believe that they possessed this power. They had what was called, what was it, papal depositionary power. Like the Pope reserved the right to declare any ruler of Europe. unfit for ruling due to their lack of adherence with the Christian faith, with the faith of Christ. This was done, you know, very famously to Henry IV, I mentioned, by Gregory the 7th. Gregory the 7th, you know, demonstrated it. And Henry the 4th, you know, believed it.

Like, you know, because almost like medieval society was based on bonds of loyalty, and that's how government was conducted, oaths, things like that, contracts. And so if a higher authority, which every ruler knew that he was loyal to first, which was the church and the faith of Christ through it, if the church declared that, or the head of the church, on behalf of the church, declared that a man who's above you but below the church is unfit, well, then you have every justifiable legal right to not pay him tax. taxes or not give him levies or everything like that. So this was a real thing within the paradigm. You know, there was some belief within, you know,

some or a lot of belief within the Christendom world system that the Pope did in fact have this authority. That, you know, a lot of, now the Holy Roman Empire, of course, disputed this authority to a certain extent. But Henry VIII supplicated himself. And I think Henry the 4th was from the Von Velth dynasty. I'm going to fact check myself real quick just to make sure. No problem.

Yeah, because I want to make sure I get this right. Or was he a salient? I think he was of the salians. But that'll be important later. The reason I'm checking that is it'll be important a little bit after that. But, you know, it was it, but then when, when Frederick Barbarossa, Frederick Barbarossa more brazenly opposed the authority of the Pope, and that's why he was declaimed.

He was excommunicated by Pope Alexander III. And his, I think was his successor, Frederick II, who was even more just blatantly anti-Po-Po-Papal authority. As a matter of fact, a lot of people, you know, accused Frederick the second of being secretly Muslim because his whole bodyguard was made of Muslims from Sicily. Two different popes, you know, declared him unfit to rule Gregory the 9th and innocent the 4th.

And, you know, of course, that didn't really do much immediately. But like, and you can see the thing, right? Like the first time it's declared by Gregory the seventh, Henry the 4th, Henry the 4th crawls on his hands and knees with sackcloth and ashes through the snow in Tuscany for the Pope to forgive him, right? This sort of humiliation that he goes through himself. But the next couple of times it's kind of it loses its moral power because, you know, the emperor, for whatever reason, starts asking the question, all right, well, you know, it's like Stalin, the Pope, how many divisions does he have? you know um and this is this is a significant reality because the holy roman empire especially if it's an empire an emperor like frederick the second you know who doesn't much care for

spiritual matters you could just you know you can just go in and just you know fabricate some opponent some counterclaimant and marches armies into to to rome and depose the pope and put a new pope on you know um Which actually was, it brings me to an interesting transition because this was exactly done, but not by the emperor. All right. Someone got this idea in their head that they could just at some point just seize the Pope and just declare a new papacy. and someone absolutely did, except it wasn't the emperor. So I haven't talked a lot about the king. I don't think I've mentioned the kingdom of France at all since this started.

But the kingdom of France was a competing power within Europe to the Holy Roman Empire. It was theoretically under the eldest daughter of the church. It was under the authority of the papacy. but it was a separate geopolitical power with separate interests with separate, you know, claims to Charlemagne and and things like that. So what happened was, right? Suffice it to say a pope was locked up and all of a sudden all of these, you know, what is it? All these cardinals appear that claim that this, that the, I think it was Urban the seventh. That's what it was.

Urban the seventh was locked up, claimed illegitimate, and I think they kept him locked up till he died. And then all of the sudden, the papacy now exists in Avignon, which is in France. And these French cardinals keep getting selected to be Pope, who are, you know, in alliance with French interests. Now, of course, there's still a papacy in Rome because they didn't get rid of the cardinals that were in Rome. And so this creates what was called the Western Schism, which lasted from about 1378 through 1417. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale

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on Doonbiog, Kush Farage. Um, which, you know, confused the heck out of everyone because now, this was a significant crisis. because now temporal powers were meddling in the papacy to such anick. Now, the papacy did have this authority, and by this growing papal authority, outside powers were more tempted to start meddling with its functions. But it wasn't the Holy Run Empire handed up doing it. It was the kingdom of France. And so, you know, when you have one civil authority claiming that the papacy, you know having the papacy move to within the borders of that territory having all of these

you know french cardinals elected pope and basically having the papacy exist as as much the same way that the patriarch of constantinople does this whole world system goes into into a crisis of legitimacy because the question is it's like okay well if the pope is not sovereign of sovereigns to the point where a civil authority can just kind of come in and claim that the Pope is theirs now, with some level of legal legitimacy, what's to stop every Western European country from declaring their own Pope, from having their own head of the church, from having their own, you know, and then seeking to conquer the other ones because, you know, they, of course, have the righteous apostolic successor to the faith, and for there to be a Western Empire much the same way.

Now, Byzantium was kind of in decline at this point. And this did cause a lot of, you know, a lot of what were called heretics, but a lot of, there was a lot of discontentment in the spiritual realm with the state of how the Catholic Church was operating at this time. because of, you know, now righteously, you know, at least from their perspective, the papacy was attempting to secure itself outside of the authority of these civil powers. But by trying to maintain their independence and by trying to continue to be this sort of arbiter, this mediator, this authority over authorities, the sovereign over sovereigns, the church

became very politicized and a lot of the more was a lot of them I'm speaking very generally here but broadly speaking a lot of now outside of outside of you know the Gregorian reformation and the you know and the the Benedictine reformation and the Franciscan Reformation and the Dominican Reformation with all these you know where these monastic orders were kind of established to pursue these things that sort of existed as like a parallel hierarchy to the actual church hierarchy besides that, much of the same moral issues, by the way, I forgot to mention that the Gregorian reforms is also what established a clerical celibacy as a doctrine. Prior to that, it wasn't really a thing, and it was actually very controversial when it was first passed, but it won out.

But precisely because that was a doctrine, it was even the more glaringly obvious when various priests in Italy and elsewhere were keeping you know you know had had women that were very clearly you know their their mistresses their relations right now of course this wasn't all popes but you know whenever you dip your toes too much within the political side not to say engaging in politics is bad but when you start pursuing politics more and more and more especially if you're a religious institution you start neglecting your you know you start neglecting some other things right now there was legitimate issue with this within the um within the catholic church which is you know where the conciliar movement comes in right this is this is the conciliar

movement it kind of began around the 1300s goes into the 1500s but it's sort of in reaction with the western schism in which you have one pope in avignon you have one pope in rome and then later on you have a pope in like pisa or something like that you know there's like a number other pope in Italy. Right? So there's there first there was two, there's one pope, then there was two popes, then there's three popes. Right.

And everyone's confused and one pope's excommunicating the other and the other one's excommunicating the other one and like peasants throughout Europe, people throughout Europe, nobles throughout Europe are like the moral order is in chaos. It's like, well, wait a minute, which pope is the real pope? Which one is the, and they were, these were real questions. These were serious questions because, you know, if, if, if, you know, if, if, you know, if, one pope excommunicated this ruler of this realm because whatever reason, but the other pope didn't. Well, if the ruler was excommunicated, every subject underneath them was excommunicated.

And so this is, you can see this sort of, and this is terrified people because, you know, then as now, no one wants to go to hell. No one wants to, no one wants to burn eternally, right? And if it's something your ruler did, you don't want to pay for that consequence. And that's why it was such a powerful thing within that paradigm. So regardless, regardless, like there were significant efforts within the Catholic Church to reform this, specifically with the conciliar movement from about the 1300s to the 1500. There was this alternative legal theory that was put in contrast to the popes floated by, by I think it was it William of Ackham was one of the people who came up with something like it

but a lot of these monastic Catholics floated this idea right was they wanted to go back to the early church right the early church how the early church function how did the early church function well the early church function primarily through church councils through meetings of bishops The Council of Nicaea, the Council of Calcedon, the Council of, of, you know, Constantinople, the Council. There's very, all of these councils, right? All of these church councils that, you know, decided things that were as significant as the Nicene Creed, which is the summary of the Christian faith. The composition of the Bible, which was all the various books that are included, you know, for the Protestants, it's like, I think, 66. for the Catholics, it's I think 72, something like that.

But all of that was decided at a church council. And so seeing some of the downsides of this legal theory that had been put forth that the Pope can be the sovereign over sovereigns, many within the Catholic Church wanted to create either, much the same way that the papacy created these very, various parallel monastic hierarchies, they wanted to create a parallel church council of some way that's either completely outside the Pope or in some some radicals even put it forth as against the Pope. And I mean, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this went far enough to, I think it was the, it was the council of Basel, was the high point of this, where they, they were significantly considering something like this.

But it fell apart. And, you know, in the, in the, after court, kind of bringing, and this kind of brings us very nicely, comfortably up to the, to the quote-unquote present within our little series. But in about 1517 at the Fifth Lateran Council, papal supremacy was firmly and completely legally, entrenched and held as a dogma of the Catholic Church.

So that kind of brings me to the end of what I had to talk about. I mean, it's brief. I could have spent whole episodes on any single one of those. And I didn't even get to talk about the Gels and the, I'll throw the Gels and the Ghibellings in real quick. I mean, the Gels and the Ghibelings, which some of you all may be familiar, was mostly limited to the Italian peninsula and it had more to do with. with the authority of the emperor versus the Pope,

although the Gelsso and the Ghiblins is the most famous example of it. There were two. There was one during the first investiture controversy, which ended as soon as Henry the fourth, or as soon as the Concordata of Verms was signed, but the second phase, which lasted from 1216 to 1392, was much, much longer. And it had a lot more to do with this idea of Italian autonomy.

Because even within Italy, a lot of the Italian states didn't like the path the papacy was taking, most notably Venice. Venice very much disliked this legal doctrine that the papacy was attempting to implement, the papacy as sovereign of sovereigns. Because in Italy, all of these, you know, the Italians, their city states,

they've always been very autonomous. They don't like it when outsiders of any kind kind of interfere with the formation with the functioning of their own city. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast.

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your five-star getaway where every detail is designed with you in mind. Give the gift of a unique experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump-Dunbeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunebiog, Kush Farage. But it also kind of became a microcosm of these, you know, specifically with the supporters of two dynasties. The von Velf dynasty, which were, you know, a Holy Roman imperial family. which based its legitimacy off of complete and total submission to the Pope.

And the affirmation of this legal theory that the papacy was putting forward of papal supremacy versus the von Hoenschdhaelstaffins, which was Frederick the first, Frederick the second, which was more of the Byzantine-style imperial superiority over the papacy. And, you know, the various Italian families and city-states kind of cast. They're, you know, Dante talks about it. They cast their side on one or the other. But, you know, the conflict ends when the Hohenstaufen's die off completely. And, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's the most,

and really with the death of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, the Holy Roman Empire's grip, not only on, you know, the story of this is the empire kind of bleeding authority, emerging authority to the Pope. In Italy, when the Hoan Shelfan dynasty died, the Holy Roman Empire, their grip on Italy weakened permanently. Italy was now under the empire pretty much in Namal. And, you know, this sets the stage for the Renaissance and the Condottieri

and the topic for the next episode we'll be talking about, which is the Italian Wars, because France conquers Naples around this time, or at least a French noble, I think it was Charles Vanjou, conquers Naples, which establishes this Angevin claim on, or I don't think I'm using that correctly, this French claim, this this this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this Cappetian claim, that's much better, this Cappetian claim on Naples and through Naples, the rest of Italy, which will actually, you know, be conflicted by the Holy Roman Empire, which Spain will later get involved in as it comes into its own. But yeah, I believe that's the, I believe that's everything. Yeah, so this is, you know, a lot, I know we're not talking about, we weren't talking about Spain, but it's important to kind of understand all of this because this crisis that occurred within the 16th and 17th century, you don't have a crisis like this without centuries of disputes,

of differing sort of legal theories, of differing ideas as to how nations and world systems should be set up. And so I think it's very important that the listeners at least have an idea as to what was, because with the Italian Wars episode, I'm going to need to find a way to explain why Charles V, sacks Rome in 1527. You know, so, and this doesn't go away. You know, even though, you know, as time goes on, especially as the Protestant Reformation

occurs and the papacy and the empire are kind of pushed into the same camp for the final, for the remaining century or so of the Christendom world system and its terminal crisis point, excuse me, it's important, I think, for the listeners to understand what less. to this in the first place. Yeah, I think that was a good overview and really goes to show how much people were eager to centralize power unto themselves, especially when it came to the authority of the church. Yes. Which is why it ended up having to centralize itself in one location.

Exactly. And I mean, and the thing with it is, too, right, is it wasn't done. This is the thing that needs to be understood, right? You know, the centralization of power is never done entirely through, if the majority through dark ambition, right? It's done as, in a lot of instances, it's done as a reaction. It's done as an attempt to shore up, you know, protection. You know, the papacy was very right to fear that,

they might become little more than a lapdog of the empire they created much that I keep I keep making the comparison but much the same way that the Orthodox Church in Constantinople was you know and there were you know there it's it's it's it really is you know centralizing authority you know yes you there's always a little bit of dark ambition there always but it's not never entirely, and very rarely the majority, the reason why something like that happens. You know, and that's something I want people to keep conscious of. It's just, it's kind of like before you even realize it, the machine has gotten away from you, and the worst kinds of people from the outside have recognized what it is,

or who were hiding behind you in the inside the whole time have recognized what it is and what it can do for them. and because they thrive in those types of environments, they've outmaneuvered you. And now this thing that you love that you were trying to protect has become something you don't even recognize. And that was the feeling that many, many, many within and outside the Catholic Church had about it. And many of them stayed within it to try to reform it and try to, you know, as the Protestant Reformation happened, many, many dissidents, you know, Erasmus is a great example,

stayed within the church because they wanted to reform it. And of course, many made the schism, made the break, and went outside of it to try to reform it from the outsider, the foundation of the new church. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, I don't know, it's, it's, it's, it's the only thing that can be said about it is it's a tragedy because a great many people died because of, because of dark ambition and, you know, political hunger, hunger for too much power and all of these other things. Many such cases, many such cases. All right, well, we got a break because we got to go to do, we got a meeting to get ready for. We do that plug and we'll get out of here. Of course, of course, yes. If there's some conceivable world where you've been listening to the Pete Kinyonez show for this long,

and you have not attempted to get involved with the old glory club. I don't know what to say to you at this point. Like, I mean, maybe you've got to burn your hand on the stove 26 times before you figure it out. All right. I guess so. But please get involved with the old glory club. It's very much a project that Pete and I really do. I don't want to speak on your behalf, but we do really believe in and think it can do great work for our guys.

ever since this Hurricane Helene relief we've had people from all across the country getting involved going into the zone getting involved with chapters sending money donating all of these other things and it's just it's amazing to see and we want all of you to be a part of it because as I've said before the window is closing for the rider dies for the first founders because you know once we have some things going on behind the scenes get figured out, right? There's going to be a firm break between the people who were here on the ground floor and the people who were the ones who came after we had already built it. Right. So you

don't want to be an Ellis Islander or a frigging, you know, you want to be an old stock American. You want to be someone who shows up to the frontier to help do some work. And hey, shoot, it's better to show up in 1820 than in 1880. You know what I'm saying? Right. So, so If you've been on the fence and you hear this now, this is your call, get involved. Because pretty soon it will be much harder for you to get involved than it is now. That's all I got to say. Yep. And as we're saying this, I just got a notification from the group that Mellon, who's on the ground, is looking for help, especially people who are handy with a chainsaw.

So just to let you know, we got people on the ground there. And we're going to have people on the ground there until this gets settled. And that could be a while. It's going to be a very long time. But we have contacts on the ground. If you want to go up there, get in touch with us. We'll make sure you get set up. Otherwise, get involved, support us and all that.

And listen to Mr. Pete's show. Listen all of those other episodes. He does great work. Thanks, Paul. Take care. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive.

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