The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1158: Modern Policing's Origins and Issues - Part 1 - w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: January 12, 2025

65 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas and Pete start a brief series about the history of modern police and the reasons it is out of date in the twenty-first century.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. If you want to support this show and get the episodes early and ad free, head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support. I want to explain something right now if you support me through Substack or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that you can plug into any podcatcher, including Apple, and you'll be able to listen to the episodes through there.

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even three a day. And yeah, can't do it without you. So thank you for the support. Head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinguana show. Thomas, hey, how are you doing?

I'm doing very well. Thanks for hosting me. Of course. Well, this is a subject that came out of a Twitter conversation, but it's a subject that I've talked about a lot in the past. And I know you have some very strong opinions on. So let's get into this. Let's talk about the police. The thing to keep in mind is that modern policing, it's as structured, like, as we conceptualize it here in the United States.

As a subject of recent vintage, people seem to this idea, I mean, there's all kinds of mythologies around the modern state that somewhat deliberately have been cultivated to try and see it into people, this idea that these features are pranagan. like structurally, I mean, as well as ethically, when they're not. So when you raise the issue with people that modern policing is kind of run its course and it's kind of being phased out, like people seem to think one of two things. If they don't know me and are particularly sophisticated on, you know, political sociology and things like that, they have this idea that I'm forwarding some, you know, some menor-gift argument. Like, I want the police to go away. and they don't have a mandate.

I'm not saying that. I mean, that whether they're true or not doesn't matter. Or they think of suggesting that this kind of lump and revolt, however, contrived and, you know, cultivated by organized political interests, it's just going to be like, you know, like public pressure is going to be such that, you know, police departments become so kind of gilded and defanged, verbally speaking, that they can no longer implement the mandate that they've been granted. I'm not saying that either.

Okay. What I'm saying is that in structural terms, this is something that's run its course. Okay. And increasingly, police functions are going to continue to collapse into what in the post-Bold War era has been viewed as kind of military and general security functions. Police services are going to be increasingly privatized.

You know, there's going to be less and less of a distinction between the domains wherein armed force enjoys legitimacy, either conditional legitimacy or in an absolute sovereign capacity. Okay. And this is inextricably bound up with the modern. of state as it exists today being really rather obsolete. Okay. But to understand to like kind of what these exigencies are that are,

are presenting these kinds of challenges to police departments, particularly big city police forces, not exclusively. It's not just a matter of like, you know, post-George Floyd sentiment and kind of political. narratives. Like, those narratives are able to take root on grounds the phenomenon I'm talking about. Okay. You know, and I think this is all very ill-understood. But, you know, I think the point a lot that the American system, like, really mirrors the UK system, you know, politically and otherwise. The father, quite literally, of modern policing was Robert Key.

he was also kind of the founder of the modern conservative party in Britain like the Tories existed before Peel's tenure as prime minister and he was he was prime minister twice but he he kind of brought the party into the you know into the the end of the modern age in a lot of ways okay and controlling populace that scale, particularly in a divided society, that's really kind of the conditions precedent for a modern police department. Okay. And you make no mistake, the UK is a uniquely divided society, and it always has been. Okay. That's one of many parallels between America and the UK. It's not just Anglican cultural foundations. You know, there's divisions in the UK that there weren't in Germany.

When Germany was, you know, in that brief period, it was unified but also a sovereign republic. There's institutionalized divisions there that don't exist in France. Okay. And this bears directly on Peel's mandate and why he proceeded the way he did in devising the first real urban police department. Peele was born into money. His father was a career politician, but he'd made a fortune in textile manufacturing. So Peele and his whole family,

they were kind of insinuated into the, they both had like one foot, kind of in the old nobility. And I think, I think Peele was a, there was a, there was a baronet or a barony in his name. But he also very much was part of the kind of nascent, you know, industrial producer class.

You know, and his education flubbed to that too. You know, he took a degree both in classics and in mathematics. He first entered the House of Commons.

That's a very young guy, I think around 22 years old, 1809, but where he really kind of made his bones, as it were, as it's kind of a, it's kind of a political manager

and fixture was his home secretary. you know, and Home Secretary, especially in those days, kind of at the zenith of the empire, it was a very important role, you know, and the mandate was very broad. And it attracted not just ambitious men, but also a lot of men who had ideas about, you know, the sociological nature of the mandate that the office carried with it. you know and he started out as kind of a conventional old school Tory

initially he very much was behind the institutionalized discrimination against Catholics he did a 180 on that and this wasn't just for cynical reasons because otherwise he wouldn't have stuck to his guns in the way he did on

these kinds of matters of equity and social matters he sponsored the Catholic Relief Act of 1828, which, for all practical purposes, repealed, was globally known as the Test Act, which had banned Catholics from basically all manner of government service, as well as making sure they didn't get officers commissions in the British Army that would have put them in a stead of, influence, you know, policy in the, in the outer empire. This is very institutionalized, okay? That's not just something that Fainians say or that, you know, kind of like old school, like, you know, what remains are like, you know, the kind of vestigial cadre of old school

labor party types who, you know, who, you know, who, who emphasized that as, you know, being like a key tenet of the Tories as being this, this party sectarian bigotry. You know, it actually was, the UK was rabbley anti-Catholic until the 20th century. In a lot of ways, they still are, although obviously the situation is complex in ways it wasn't, because, you know, it's no longer a sovereign country. And there's this kind of constellation of of ethnicities that don't have any meaningful, you know, historical experience in the UK. Discover five-star luxury at Trump Dunebeg. Unwind in our luxurious spa. Savour sumptuous farm-fresh dining. Relax in our exquisite accommodations.

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And in Ulster, they're called Peelers, which is interesting. I think there's, you know, the former... kind of treat like like almost suggests like a mascot role the latter you know kind of kind of suggest that they're obsolete you know it's i think it's kind of telling um there's nuances to the english language um that uh i i think i'm more subtle than some people will allow but um you know at the end of the day what i'm getting is what is what what appeals kind of progressive ideas about you know the treatment of catholics and to be clear to non-conformist protestants were included in in these um in these uh test acts and um we're technically precluded from

like many of the same roles and being available to a lot of the same benefits and um institutions as Cadillics were, but slowly but surely, there were de facto and the jury exceptions carved out, particularly as a situation in Ireland deteriorated, but, you know, there was a, the law really from the time of, like, the English Reformation, you know, until kind of the end of the 19th century, like in every way it was tailored to kind of guarantee that this like Anglican hegemony. you know, like culturally, economically, like in every conceivable way, okay? Can I, let me interrupt? Yes.

Were the Jews included in this? Yes. But it was complicated because, like, it wasn't, like, a lot of it was unsaid in the case of the Jews. And it's not like there was some party. It's not like there was some, like, formal revolutionary cadre. but that was like a Jewish fraternal organization that that also you know had had the power to kind of like impact like legislation in the commons like there was de facto but this also that even that wasn't as deep as people think before the white think before the 20th century it was just kind of like a non factor that's how like disraeli became the prime minister like granted disraeli was he wasn't like kissinger in terms of his personality or in terms of his values. But he was kind of the Jewish Londoner who had sort of shed his ethno-sectarian skin. In real ways, he wasn't just some morano.

You know, but that's a whole different issue. And the way that was dealt with was a whole different body of like pushtum and things that didn't have to do with, you know, Christian sectarianism. It's, it's, it's. a totally even thing. And we hit into that, but we should do it in another series because it doesn't really bear on this. But the

writing on the wall and what ultimately happened, of course, on the heels of World War I in Ireland, like Peel realized, like there was going to be a real problem here. This kind of like perfect storm of

an increasingly radical labor movement that was also increasingly mobilized. The threat of general strike at the core of the empire, which in turn could touch off a sort of wildfire effect that would spread the colored dominions. And on top of that, you know, an open sectarian revolt in Ireland and in London and in Liverpool

and in these major urban centers in the UK proper, like the British Home Islands, I mean, Ireland obviously is part of the UK then too, wherein there were, you know, there were ghettoized Catholics who, you know, appreciable numbers of them, this could have been a real bloodbath, figurative and literal.

And it, was a frailty that people were aware of like men in government and you know men insinuated not just into titled society type roles but who actually had clout and power you know they realized that there was a real danger here and these people had to be brought into the fold and made if not patriotic made to believe in good faith terms that they had enough of a stake in the enterprise that they wouldn't try to burn it down. And a modern police force is devised by Peel and as well as, you know, in America, like, you know, Peel's counterparts in the post-reconstruction era, you know, they, they had the same thing on

their mind. You know, modern policing, it's not just, it's, it's, it's not just, it's, it's, it's doesn't just owe to the peculiar exigencies of having to manage there to four unthinkably highly scaled and complex urban environments, which basically house, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of workers that staff the national economy, like the way to manage that sociologically and politically, and the way to suppress the way to suppress. the instincts towards revolutionary violence, they're intrinsic to these populations and the condition of which they find themselves,

they're required a very delicate balancing. And you couldn't just treat these people you know, like one might, you know, coolies revolting in India or something. Like politically, aside in the fact you don't do that anyway, you know, if you live in, you know, if you live in like a Western society the era um but it's also politically it would not have been tenable you know um you know for

context prior to that in lieu of a police department you know there were a night watchman going back to the medieval period who quite literally post up you know when the when the town gates were closed to keep watch out for marauders or for military enemies or or any or for fire buyers, you know, literally Firewatch. And that was, you know, essentially a communitarian volunteer role for younger men. I mean, there was some kind of stipend and compensation of a nominal sort, but, you know, it was basically derivative of a communitarian impulse. And in the case of the court, if there was a wanted man, you know, before the king's bench,

or in America, you know, before the, you know, who was being hailed into criminal court by the municipality, there were constables and bailiffs who were on duty full time. Or, you know, you deputize a man of good standing, sometimes even a man who was a lawyer, you know, okay, you know, get a posse together and go fetch this bastard, you know, bring him here. Like, literally bring him into court. you know um there was so i mean that that that essentially took care of it and you know this idea that there's this kind of permanently mobilized armed force that uh is insinuated into the community but also outside of it that literally patrols in in this kind of permanent you know and creates like a permanent visible presence like that didn't exist before and one of the things that caused

so many problems for the police is that a little over a century on into this urban policing model which now coincidentally was a concomitant with you know the war on drugs the police became this they ceased to be this communitarian element and they ceased to be this kind of symbolic sociological governing mechanism. Like they became this kind of secretive, hostile element that cultivated its own alienage, vis-a-vis the community that it was responsible for regulating. You know, and this wasn't some conspiracy.

We're getting a lot of ourselves. It owed the realities of the Cold War. it owed to, you know, the nature of criminality at scale in the late 20th century. It owed the inability of social problems to be resolved by truly communitarian structures. And as authority, as official authority, both localized as well as, you know, in absolutely, sovereign terms, you know, that would share like a dominion over the entire entirety of territorial space of the country. You know, they, they didn't know what to do about these things. Air grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to

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So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash Northwest. So their fallback was on this enforcement mechanism that had the widest and deepest mandate, preferably speaking, you know, to regulate human behavior and conduct at scale and to bring to bear punitive sanctions on people who are unwilling to comply with these edicts, be them like moral or pragmatic or both. And that creates kind of a perfect storm of hostilities, you know, but we're not quite there yet, but we'll get there as this goes on. To take it back for a minute, to be clear, too, about these test acts and these laws governing the rights of peoples owing to their sectarian confession, this wasn't just superficial.

And it wasn't just something that wasn't really enforced, except on a capricious manner, when the authorities saw fit to deprive somebody of upward mobility. for some discrete political reason, only to an emergent crisis or something. I mean, this was very much a staple of, of, um, of the sociological structure.

You know, um, and it, basically people supported it. You know, um, if you weren't taking communion in the Anglican church, um,

you, you, basically, basically were excluded from public life, you know, and even if you claimed to not be a practicing Catholic, even if you weren't, if you were not actively engaged with the Anglican Church, and if you did not have a family pedigree, whether you were rich or poor, or neither, that demonstrably was Anglican, you were viewed as a recusant. okay um and you were viewed as somebody who was not to be trusted and your neighbors would probably whisper that you were some kind of secret phanian it came even even if even if you weren't ethnically irish you know um and again like i said nonconformists were included in these measures too but um the indemnity act of 1727

alleviated some of these formal sanctions, but there's a complex history and kind of, and like rather perverse history between non-conformists and Anglicans that endures really until recent memory with the troubles, but that's I raise this because that's my own heritage, and like I don't most of I like E. Michael Jones, he's got a habit of when he says

Protestants, he's talking about Anglicans, and I don't appreciate that. And not because that's not because that's like something against Anglicans, I, but because it's, he's making a caricature of, of the issue. And, um, you know, kind of employing an opportunity target and trying to cast us, you know, like, like, reformed people, um, as, uh, like, with just like broad stroke, um, as if where some kind of a junior version of the traditional

Norman aristocracy or something, and that's not remotely accurate. That's why I emphasize that. There's a guy, he's a really good story, and his name is Jonathan Jonathan Charles Douglas

Clark. And he wrote a lot about, I think he's still alive. he's not he's not i mean he's getting pretty old i think he's in his 70s now but he was not either like a wig historian nor like one of these marxists so he rejected both the kind of the kind of tory what we view is kind of like the neo-connish like progressive view of history and institutions as being this kind of malleable institutions you know in the in the anglophone world being these kinds of malleable things that you know through this kind of process of trial

on error and ongoing enlightenment, quite literally, you know, social conditions become more equitable in, like, the open society becomes a reality. He rejects that nonsense outright, but nor is he,

like, one of these, um, he speaks a lot like Hobbsbo. I mean, he, I got into an argument, not, not a, not a, not a hostile or punitive one, but I got to an argument with somebody the other day who credited Clark with, with, with coining the,

the long century, that terminology or that signifier. And he did, he did speak of the 18th century as the quote long 18th century in similar terms that Hobbsbom described in the 90s century. And undoubtedly, they were familiar with each other's work products. But, you know, Clark wasn't really a hegelian in the terms that a Habsbom was. but he obviously has some of those conceptual

prejudices I don't say prejudices in punitive terms I mean that's just very much the way his view of historical time is oriented particularly as regards

you know mind as the kind of prime move on in the historical process but his whole point was that Anglican aristocratic the hegemony that and the challenges emergent to its hegemony. That's really the way to understand everything of a power political nature that happened within

and without the United Kingdom. Like really from the, for the time of the War III kingdoms, you know, up until like World War I. Okay. And I believe he's correct. And an adequately deep reading of a Hobbs, which somebody, like Carl Schmidt was very, very, very, very adroitly, you know, conveyed in his writings. Not just in the concept of the political, but in the stuff he wrote directly on Hobbs. He's very much making the same point, although obviously, like, his topical emphasis, you know,

are generally more focused on discrete features, you know, relating the kind of, um, conceptual jurisprudeness and things and kind of theoretical foundations that you know are intrinsic to the the kind of british cultural mind you know and uh and such that there is a british cultural mind it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's an aristocratic and you know so it's a real it's a real phenomenon okay um and again too like that's why the emergence of a modern police element in the UK. It was different than in in Germany whereby by by and large, you know, the poit side have always been sort of like an internal security element that was very much part of the military. Okay. That doesn't just owe to the fact that, you know, the modern German state is the house that Bismarck built.

and that kind of conceptual perspective, especially vis-à-vis policing, is very Prussian. I mean, that's part of it, but I posit that that only became a feature of the Prussian cultural mind on grounds of the basic homogeneity that was accomplished. Now, granted, and yes, Germany's about one-third Roman Catholic, but, uh, Bismarck's Kulterkopf was tremendously effective in basically rendering

the German state and the civil service that constituted that state at a level of executive enforcement to say anything of decision making and become very Protestant by

design. And also sectarian challenges aside, and I don't minimize those. I mean, Germany was literally ground zero of the 30 years war. This was not like a minor thing. But there, it was despite the regional attachments to Germans and despite, you know, the kind of several populations who are possessed of discrete cultural forms, you know,

like a Swabian is not a Prussian, is not a Bavarian, But there is like a German identity, like a Deutsch, like racial identity, if you will. There is not a British race, okay? There's constituent elements of Great Britain, but I, nobody would argue to the contrary. I don't believe, okay. Employers, rewarding your staff? Why choose between a shop voucher or a spend anywhere card when with options card you can have both? With options card, your team gets the best of both worlds.

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And that's fundamentally important. And that's one of the reasons why, again, it's not just, it's not just some sort of like anglophone conceptual bias abstracted from historical experience in the UK and in America one of the common strains that is facilitated this kind of enduring like a mirroring between the two political cultures

like always do both us and them being like intractively divided societies and I will die on that hill okay now bring it back to Clark's kind of point and how it relates to our discussion topically. After about 1830 or so, despite the fact that, yeah, the vast majority of not just aristocrats,

but like upperly mobile middle class types in England, but also in the UK and an Ulster. Oh, again, an Ulster, it's a little more complicated. people basically believed in not just the divine right of the British crown but you know they believed their hereditary nobility was basically doing his job

in historical terms you know they believe the kind of parameters of traditional authority from 1066 onward with the Anglican church being the kind of theological and aesthetical and cultural linchpin of these things they viewed that as

basically a good thing. Like, nevertheless, there were political variables that were very real that were undermining it. You know, and a lot of these sociopolitical factors were the same

things that ultimately were you know, culminated in like the 1848 revolutions, you know, which in turn also you know, kind of kicked off the decades-long process whereby revolutionary communism kind of became the default perspective of the working classes, you know, locally moderated as it may have been,

by traditional cultural practices or a vestigial attachment to the national or local culture, or just out and out, you know, like religious belief, you know, that the fact remains that in every punctuated way, there was cracks emerging within this structure that really for the preceding, you know, seven, eight, seven or eight centuries had been essentially insurmountable. And such that threats to it were emergent, they were emerging from without and the standard bears of these threats were characterized first and foremost by their absolute alienage. So this changed everything. But, you know, and P.O, the degree to which he quite literally drafted like a manifesto and like various policy papers on what the mandate should be,

of an urban police department that what its relationship should be to the judiciary and the executive and the crown but most importantly to the community that it served um he drafted some of his allies in the government um to produce this document um known as the royal commission on constabular forces. And the report didn't just, it wasn't just emergent as some kind of last minute policy declaration to appease, you know, the official opposition or something. Like there had been a serious committee corral to evaluate exactly how this kind of nascent police force, how it would work with the poor laws, as they were called.

you know, to what degree the police were, you know, to kind of like enforce these superficially paternalistic, but basically punitive, you know, legislative mandates, which conferred upon the local executive, the ability to quite literally, like, place people under arrest for parental purposes and put them in poor houses. you know, P.O. was hyper aware of this potentiality. And he basically said, like, we can't, we can't become the kind of, like, uniformed enemy, like, of the wretched

and the poor, you know, or of the, or of the working classes. You know, we can't become to be viewed as, um, this kind of, like, permanent, uh, cadre of strike breakers or something.

So what he did was, in addition to that, in addition to this committee, that, you know, then, as I just mentioned, presented their findings in the form of his broad-based study to the commons, he also drafted what came to be known as the Peeleian principles. Okay. It sounds like the rules one might have for like eating an orange or something, but it's not. The nine Pilean principles were one to prevent crime and disorder, and this is key, as an alternative to repression by military force. And as an alternative to recourse to increasingly severe punishment. So basically, you know, anything short of, you know, some kind of 1789 situation you don't just send in the red coats you know to butt stroke and bayonet people nor do you start you know drawing and quartering people in in the public square like

you know in the days of uh you know medieval rebellions or whatever you know um the people need to view the police force as as as working you know like with them you know towards a a kind of an equitable peace. You know, the second Peleon principle was that the power of the police that fulfill their functions and duties is absolutely dependent on public approval of their existence, their actions and behavior in the course of affecting custodial arrests, but also like an approval of their mandate. you know um there's got to be uh there's got there's got there's got to be some sort of you know direct connection between you know um these constituencies and how they're represented in the commons and who represents them you know and uh an ability of those representatives like directly impact you know what what what what what what priorities are as well as

you know, as well as the kind of brass tax of how policing is conducted, you know, there's got to be some kind of formal accountability, you know, to recognize always the extent to which cooperation of the public must be secured and how this diminishes in proportionate in terms the necessity of the use of physical force. and this is why traditionally British police don't pay a key okay it's not because the British are naive it's not because they got a culture that wasn't steeped in violence nor is it like in old movies where you know there's some that the British kind of don't know what the hell to do

if somebody shows up with a gun like look actually until recently firearms were pretty ubiquitous in the UK and until later 80s you could procure a weapon as a private person without a whole lot of hassle. The British send in the army if they need to kill somebody. Okay, or if they need to like raid the hood and do like a bulls-on parade thing and like break heads. The whole point of like the the Peleon and police is that they don't do that. You know.

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Okay. That's the ethos, and this is key. And that's kind of like where America parted ways with the Peeleian concept. And we'll get into why that is. Probably not until part two, though. But number five of the Pellian principles to seek and preserve public favor

and partial service to law, independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice, the substance of those laws, but without pandering the public opinion. And, you know, in the UK and historically, you know, how, like, in Robin Hood, like the big villain is the sheriff of Nottingham.

Like, a sheriff didn't used to be, like, a local policeman. but he did basically have like the executive power of the county with you know that that like concentrated in his office and there's a big concern that these rules can't become politicized if you're talking about you know the ability to affect the stodial arrest and hail people into court you know by way of like a permanent constabulary like there had to be some kind of accountability but it couldn't become just like another political office

you know um and that's uh i stipulated in the early days the uk did a pretty good job of this even if it's you know something that's not that they can't really be sustained you know and in the absence as we saw with mr trump regardless of how anybody feels about trump the man you know you've got you got a perfect example in the fbi where it's like you have a law enforcement agency which his power whose mandate disappeared decades ago. It's like what, so what do they become? Like they basically become this, they become this kind of like hatchet for hire,

for entrenched political interests. And that's, that's highly corrupting. And, you know, aside from the fact that it's, it's unconstable that, you know, the taxpayer is expected to, you know, continue to fund this apparatus. it's that you know there really is like a there really is a deleterious influence of um a police organization that has become like especially owing to you know the the evaporation of its mandate has become

really nothing more than a um a a um a a a a uh a a for um you know for political right for political capture um um The six Peeleian principle is to use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient. And again, too, I've noticed a lot of people and, like, a fair amount of flatfoot's, like, follow my content. I mean, we'll just, fine. I was kind of surprised, excuse me, to discover that. But I hear police a lot, you know, talk about how, like, well, you know, the British people. policing is broke as fuck they

you know they they're too averse of force and maybe they are I'm not I'm not like weighing in on that in absolute terms but it's something that precludes the kind of current totally dysfunctional kind of culture of policing like post

um Floyd um post the political theater you know post political theater promised on on the Floyd incident it this goes back to um you know literally in inception and um that's one of the reasons um why um operation banner played out the way that it did

you know um and we'll get into some of that i don't want to turn this into the discussion about the troubles because it's outside the scope but there are aspects that are relevant to the discussion but you know my my point is people who view you know participate i mean there's a What are the troubling is going on here, and I don't want to, I don't want to get into the topic here. Not because I'm a burst of the topic, although it's quite unpleasant, but because it's outside the scope. Discussion of the grooming gangs and sexual assault of vulnerable people, particularly young girls and kids, by these hostile, like, alien elements. The reason why that's happening owes to nakedly political factors of, you know, the post. Norrumburg era that that doesn't owe to like the bridge police being in you know

unreasonably a burst of force or something but instances where there is on display a comparative reluctance you know to apply deadly force or to go in heavy as people think of it in in terms of police work um you know in applying uh less lethal measures, that that is a different thing. And it precedes, you know, the current era and it's ideological chivaless and things. The last few are kind of brass text stuff. The last few of the Pillar principles, way to accountability. But the key one is to maintain at all times a relationship with the public.

because reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police. Community policing, that phraseology as well as the ethos that underlies it, that's a direct import from the United Kingdom. And it's essential, like regardless of kind of how you fall on the matter of what kinds of good policing, or like, that's not important. I mean, it's important, but I mean, for purposes of this, particular aspect of the discussion, there does need to be like a

communitarian aspect to the police. Otherwise, it's not workable. And honestly, that is the future. As the process that we talked about at the top of the hour, you know, kind of emerges in earnest and policing becomes truly

a localized function once again. That's a essential to local sovereignty and essentially the maintenance of anything approaching law and order. And I made the point again and again, you're going to see moving forward. There's not going to be, I mean, I realize I'm dating myself with this reference, but there's, I do not foresee like a Thomas Chittam Civil War II scenario that people would band in the early 90s. And I think Chitton's a great guy. And for context, he was writing about this stuff in the wake of things like the L.A. riots.

where like some kind of open to Ross and Krieg was really like in the running, which is terrible. I do not see that happening at scale. What is happening, I mean, it's already underway, is the kind of secession of discrete communities, some which are deliberate communities, some of which have just kind of ossified around common cultural imperatives. and identitarian signifiers, just like owing to accident of, you know, historical development and sociological realities. But as communities kind of become more and more self-contained, you know, like we've talked about before, there's going to be even greater and more layered complex interdependence of an economic and financial nature, but politically people are

seceding. You know, you're going to see communities that are like 99.9% black, that are like 99.9% white, you know, that that are like the same as for Raza or for like Asian people or other. And similarly, there's going to be communities that only either ideological commitment or inability or unwillingness to establish, you know, a deliberate living pattern at relative scale. You know, there are going to be like mixed race communities that, you know, maybe or maybe even, you know, community stuff that are situated in the aforementioned,

according to the aforementioned criteria, like going to something like vestigial attachment to American civic myths. But regardless, Like any policing element is going to be a reflection of that community. You're not going to have like white or Spanish guys going to police who live 50 miles away, like commuting into some black hood to police it. And like vice versa. Like that's done.

That's dead. You know, it's not, um, the liabilities attendant to police work are just going to kind of force those sorts of developments. But also, um, people aren't going to be. willing to do the job anymore from a position of communitarian alienage. But also, again, you know, like what was the purpose of appeals model for policing, which in turn also had strong relevance here, you know, again, owing to the basic social divisions which characterized both societies what kind of derailed that really was uh really was kind of like the collapse of uh the cities as loci as like worker bearish the national economy it was the cold war

it was uh you know um the earliest uh birth pangs of globalism when they really when they literally were like two systems competing for global hegemony, that's really what underlay the war on drugs. Like, I watched the film Drugs Store Cowboy the other day, which is actually a really good film. I really like that movie. It's got

Kelly Lynch, it's got James Remar, it's got Matt Dillon. It's got William as Burroughs and this weird cameo, but it's very much kind of a black comedy, but it's also a serious treatment of like

narcotic addiction. And it's also kind of like a, you know, like a crime of movie. But Burroughs plays this heroin and morphine addicted priest. It's kind of like the grand old man of this community of addicts that's perpetually ripping and running. And he talks about the settings around 1973 and he's talking about, you know, I foresee a global police state apparatus premised on the moral panic over use of narcotics.

And yeah, there was an aspect to that, but the war on drugs is peak like Cold War, I think. Okay. And everything else aside, it totally

and completely changed policing. It changed the way, it changed what's considered evidence. It changed the way we can sexualize a criminal offense. it changed the way the police view the community that they are charged with regulating and vice versa it changed uh people's attitude towards violence and when the police have a defensible mandate to apply it i mean it made the role something other than what it had been theretofore it was that um much of a a categorical

paradigm shift. And the war on drugs is coming to an end too, which is really, really interesting and very important. You know, especially considering the degree to which you know, many aspects of the public health crisis

are being driven by addiction to to obvious but we're we're coming up on the hours I want to stop now I'm sorry to be a party pooper but if I change gears now like I'll have to stop

like in the middle of a what I think is an important point and I don't want to do that that I will hold my questions until the next time. I was taking some... What do you prefer?

We can do them now if you want, or we can wait. Well, let me just throw one in there. Yeah, man. It seems like in the United States, policing was taken over by the Irish. How did that happen? A few different ways,

at least in Chicago, Boston's a bit different. In Chicago, and they get into this and up to the Simplier's The Jungle, which is a great book. like even if even if you don't accept sinclair's you know um views on political economy and and and historical processes and things but when the jungle opens up um there's still like a vestigeal like german-american kind of

civic elite in chicago you know but they're slipping um basically the first unions were Irish immigrants and the first mob here was Irish you know the Capone gang like went to war basically

with like with the Irish you know that I mean yeah it was the north side and the south so I truly are different and there wasn't some like rigid homogeneity

between the gangs but it was basically like you know Capone's Italians like going to war with the Irish okay so the iris were running the street and the irish and and you know the iris were running the the the labor unions so by consequence you know you had to give the you had to give the irish the police department if you wanted to be able to regulate both of those things you know and then from there like the Irish here, they were able to capture,

they were able to capture the, the civic apparatus for, you know, like 70 years. The Irish are, I'm not like trashing the Irish. I mean, depending on how you define things, like I am Irish. Like, I don't really do it that way, because I think if you're not Roman Catholic,

you're not really a patty. But my point is, I mean, that's one of the reason I make fun of them so much, just because it's kind of like an in-house. rivalry but uh i'm not banishing the iris when i say this but they are conspiratorial people very tribal very uh very in-group focused um very prone to intrigues okay and the best way under the national economic schema you know that exactly existed in earnest from the 1870s until, you know, really until the Kennedy era, you know,

they, that that was how you captured clout, you know, in the cities. So that, that's how. I knew the guy, I don't want to name drop him because I think he's retired now. I mean, I was thinking about this either day, like I'm getting so cold. but I went to law school and I became buddies with them like where I went to law school this guy named Corboy

he's this big shot like King of Torch type lawyer. He founded this scholarship at John Marshall, Chicago where like any Chicago policeman or woman can like get a full ride if they can like get into John Marshall. So I got to know like some of these flat

foots including the guy who went on to become a hodge with a fraternal order of police. And I got to know a pretty well because he'd drive me home i mean we we we had class in the weekends and we were both going to law school at night he was working as a he was working as a cop then he worked the west side you know i was i was working a couple different jobs including at this gym and edgewater but so he'd go to class at night and then on saturday morning we had like lawyering skills it was basically legal writing and uh he'd meet me at the skokie swift um

L station, and then we drive to the loop, and then after class, he'd drive me back to Skokie Swift, and then I'd go home to Evanston. He's like, I got to know him pretty well, and he was the third-generation cop. His brother was a cop, his dad was a cop, his grandfather had been a cop. You know, and it's, it was interesting. And he married a lady who was very nice. nice and he'd met her at ISU where a lot of cops used to go to college i don't know about today but their police science program was kind of a feeder system for scovbd but he married a lady and

like her dad was a cop you know something is but um my point being like uh i i got some insight uh because i'm like a north shore guy and so i was plenty of irish around like where i grew up, but, you know, they were they were the kinds of guys who became policemen. You know, like, they're the kinds of guys who were, like, lawyers and stuff and, like, accountants.

Like, their dads, I mean, you know. The Prosper serious. That's not some kind of, like, flex. And, like, my family, because, like, my dad, my dad's, like, a fucking genius, but he's, like, he's, like, this academic guy and basically, like, a game theory guy. We were kind of, we were, like, the poor people.

I'm sure. And, like, you guys had been you know you did as far as guy i know like how come me you know he's like but don't do what he knows you won't make any money you know it's like fuck you like i want your opinion but um yeah that was that was that was kind of a tangent man sorry about that and like forgive my i finally were being sick man but i still got some congestion forgive me i realize i don't sound well so forgive me for it no problem uh drop some plugs and uh i'll end it all in this you'll end it all I'm trying to be macab. You can always find me.

The best place to find me is on Substack. I'm on hiatus from the pot until the first week in February. But there's other good stuff that's popping up there. And I promise season three of the pod is going to be lit and tremendous. It's Real Thomas-777.7.7.com. My website is kind of a one-stop location for a bunch of my content. It's number seven, H-O-M-A-S-777.com. I want social media at capital, R-E-A-L-U-A-L-U-S-O-M-S-O-M-A-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-N-N-N-N-N-N-S-O-N-N-N-S-O-N-N-N-N-N-O-N-N-E-R-E-M-E-ROM.

But, yeah, there's big things on the horizon, and I think, I think the subs will very much appreciate and approve of these things. And I want to give her, since I want to thank everybody for supporting the brand. People have really, we've gotten like a glut of news subscribers lately. It's just great. You know, and your support makes this possible. I cannot thank you enough. And in a week, I'm going to the inauguration and a bunch of the fellas and girls are going to be out there. I'm going to stream from out there and I'm going to try and capture some worthwhile footage and B-roll. So there's that to look forward to also, but that's what I got. All right, man.

Until the next time. Thank you.