The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1160: Modern Policing's Origins and Issues - Part 2 - w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

60 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas and Pete continue a brief series about the history of modern police and the reasons it is out of date in the twenty-first century.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Lidl, more to value. Great to see you back at Spexsafers. Okay, could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-S. Deals. Oh, right, yes.

Our Black Friday deals are eye-catching, but the letter charts over here. Oh, sorry. At Speck Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals, like up to 70 Euro-I. off one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. If you want to support the show and get the episodes early and add free, head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support. I want to explain something right now.

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the wall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekaneda show. Thomas, hey, part two of the police series. How you doing, man? doing well thank you man yeah i think it was pretty part one seemed to be pretty well received um people uh i guess some of the subs were confused that the whole thing wasn't on youtube i don't know why it's like in the description it said it was just like a preview but um

let me address that real quick in the beginning of this um yeah yeah the the videos are not going to be on youtube rumble bit shoot anymore you get a preview. If you decide it's something you want to watch, you can go over to one of the podcast apps and listen to it. Yeah, just not going to put out video anymore. No, no, that makes perfect sense, man.

And yeah, like, I didn't think it was confusing or anything. That seems like a perfectly reasonable way to do it. So, yeah, that's great. If it's a particularly, if it's a subject that I think we need video for, I'll release it for subscribers. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense, man.

Yeah, no, I wasn't confused by the whole thing, but a handful of people hit me up about it. So yeah, thanks for, thanks for shouting it out. I think, I think we finished

off last time talking about Robert Peel and like the Peel principles. And, you know, I emphasize that not to be pedantic or because I get excited about trivialities in the historical record. But again, they agree to which policing really is a political phenomenon. It's not, it's not the necessity whereby, oh, the police have always been here. You know, the police have existed for 40,000 years, like basically since man became, like, sentient. And if they go away, there's anarchy.

That's not why you have a police department, you know, and the American model, the reason why there's not like, there's not like an American version of like the German order police that are like part of the National Guard or something is because there's a strange situation in the UK and in America. And for clarity to like, you know, Peele absolutely was the father, wasn't his the father of modern, what's called like metropolitan policing. The first true police department came from Scotland. That's like, you're another thing that, like, the Scottish came up with. In, uh, in the city of Glasgow police were, like, the first, like, the first professional police department. They were established by an act of parliament in 1800. Um, I knew that, but some of the, some of the, some of the, some of the Pikes, like, shouted

out. And I'm like, what the fuck? The first police were Scotland because. So there you go. And P.L. The London Metropolitan Police were created by the Peace Preservation Act of 1814. And P.O. essentially, like, drafted that in all but name. I don't know if he's credited as the primary author.

But, yeah, for context, at the turn of the 19th century, London had It had 450 constables in service of the kings or queens bench and 4500 night watchman You know it was It wasn't within The contemplation that there'd be like a permanent professional police force Until Peel's reforms and

When he became home secretary, that's really when it began in earnest. But the significance to us in this country, you know, everything kind of changed with the New Deal regime and subsequent. And, you know, one of the reasons why, as people my age and older remember,

one of the reasons why it was a big deal when the media kind of turned on LAPD. And, you know, when the Rodney King incident happened and then like the subsequent, you know, like race war came about. I'm not being shrill. I mean, that really was a race war.

You know, I think people kind of confuse William H. Parker with Daryl Gates. And I've noticed that, too, because a lot of these, it's fading because, like, nobody takes a woke shit seriously anymore. But at the peak

of that garbage, like, I think around, like, 2015, 2016, there was a lot of these, uh, there was a handful like history of Los Angeles that made sound of a splash and kind of mainstream academe, which is very midwood stuff. But there was this big effort to kind of slander William H. Parker. And I realized, because I'm like, why are these singling out of Parker?

And I'll get to why that's weird in a minute. But then I realized a lot of these people think Parker and Gates are the same guy. You know, in Gates, I think Gates is kind of an ugly guy. Like, not for the reasons that a lot of left-wingers do. I, you know, I, I, um, I'll get into why I think that in a bit. But, but Parker, Parker was this big progressive. You know, he, um, and his, he's kind of like the American Robert Keel in some ways. You know, because like policing before the 1950s, really, in America, it's, like,

corruption was kind of taken for granted. Like, I mean, like, graft. Like, Bazy was understood, like, in any big, city you can pay off the cops and get them off your back. It was very ad hoc. I think that until, I think, I think in the 1940s, the city of Miami had literally two sworn police officers, you know, and even in cities where you had, you know, a more mobilized police force like Chicago, it didn't, it didn't function the way, like we think

of it. They were kind of like de facto, like, you know, union busters and strike breakers. you know, you kind of rely on police services that you could like pay them to show up, like blowboard, you know, and it was not in Gangs, New York, which I think is a really great film, although like a lot of people trash it for reasons I don't quite understand, but I like it for a lot of reasons.

I mean, it's the only film that really deals with kind of the, what life was like in big northern cities during the war between the states. but happy Jack you know the thug like the the like the the policeman played by uh

john C Riley he was like out there thugging it like that was pretty realistic like by all accounts man like that's like what the police were like you know there was a um there was a show I can't remember if it was on AMC or history but it was uh it only did two seasons

it was called copper uh huh and I didn't I've never heard of it but was it oh yeah yeah it was really good and it really it did a good job of showing it would be late 1800s

1880s 1890s and it did a really good job of showing just exactly that the whole John C. Riley thing about how they were a lot of them were just thugs a lot of them grew up thugs or they came back

from the war and they had nothing else that they could do and they got thrown into into policing. Yeah, they were good at strong-arming people and they were good with a handgun. Which at no day, I mean, today, I'm still a terrible pistol shot, but these days, that's a lot easier to stay on target

with a pistol than if you're using some old Cold Forty like peacemaker, you know, like even, I mean, you know all that. You're a gun guy, but, but yeah, so that's, you know, that's basically what the police were. It's not some, that's not some progressive myth about, you know, the bad guy police or something i mean it's a fact but it but parker you know all kinds of in every sense in public policy you know i was making the point that sociology was a real discipline like because of the cold war and because of the managerial state and parker was one of these guys

i'll get into his background in a minute but in the 1950s and 60s like big city police chiefs or in chicago police superintendents as we call them they weren't just like career cops who, you know, had like the ear of the mirror. I mean, there was definitely some of that. But this idea of, you know, a cop needs to be some like college-educated type with, with, you know, preferably with a kind of prestige degree, you know, which in those days was like a degree in sociology or economics or like urban planning or something. You know, like this was a big thing, you know.

And that's one of the reasons why Parker didn't like Hollywood. But the reason why shows like Dragnet were a big deal, like they worked with LAPD and Parker cultivated that. You know, like an L.A. Confidential, how the guy played with Kevin Space even since. He's like always wearing, he's always wearing Italian suits. And he's got like manicured fingernails. And he's, he's consulting with a guy who's supposed to be Jack Webb on Dragnet. Like that was the real thing, like the Hollywood L.A. cop who ended up. you know, who's interfaced in a media in a way that,

um, that is essential kind of the public image, you know, like they have stuff all came from Parker and, uh, you know, that this was, uh, the LAPD was held out as like the model police force. And if you read the kind of stuff Parker said, it, he, it was all like the peel principles. You know, it was like, we're a community based police department, you know, like we're not here, you know, just to arrest people and, and smack people up. You know, we're not just a bunch of stripe breakers. Like, he was like this big progressive who like was a, who, um, I mean, that's why it's weird to try and present him as this kind of like clansman type or something. Like, because...

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Could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-S deals. Oh, right. Yes, our Black Friday deals are eye-catching, but the letter charts over here. Oh, sorry.

At Spec Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals. Like up to 70 euro off one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. He wasn't at all. He was like this big progressive and his big thing was that, like, the L.A. County sheriffs, they had a reputation.

as being kind of like very redneckish and very rough. And this whole thing was like, we're not like those guys, you know, Parker like high, he was into hiring blacks and, and like mestizo people, you know, to police their own hoods and stuff. Like that was like his whole thing, you know, and like that people might be like, oh, that's just like police work. But yeah, that's why it's police work because of Parker. And Parker was falling back on, um, on this stuff from the UK.

He was an educated guy. And like most of these guys, you know, he came up through the service during war or two. Like he'd been born in the Dakotas and found his way to, give me one second, my machine's freaking out. There we go. Yeah, he was born in South Dakota and made his way in Deadwood, you know, which has like an auspicious heritage as regards law enforcement and stuff. And then he made his way to Southern California, like a lot of people did from that part of the country, including my paternal grandfather. His grandfather, William H. Parker, was a war hero. He'd fought up the Union Army in the war between the states and later served in Congress. and um

Parker was a he was very Catholic which obviously was unusual in um in uh in like Los Angeles at the time which was which was kind of like a was a wasp read out like literally like rich waspi people

we'd kind of settle it and those people like their their descendants like still have a lot of clout there you know um and and there was a lot of like Oakey's too you know who like working and poor like white folks but you know, Parker was kind of outside of that culture. But he, uh, he joined LAPD.

On August 18th, 1927, he was going to law school. And it's the idea was that it was just kind of like put him through school and it was like something to do. And like, you know, well, during the course of his studies and said he could learn like, you know, stuff about public policy where they ever met the road in terms of functional application of the law,

you know, like in an executive role at street level. But he decided, after he passed the power exam, he decided to stay on. It's early, he early on, like, he was a big advocate of the police union, which at that time, I think the New York and Chicago, a maternal or a police were already a thing. but um like the idea of public sector unions i've done to me wrong like police working in them days

was a lot different than today and like those guys actually did need some kind of formal representation vis-à-vis to be the city council and stuff it's not it's not like ridiculous bullshit like even a teacher's union but you know public sector unions weren't a thing um and uh back in those days in California, I think throughout the state, so that there was any kind of like cop representation in terms of organized labor. It was generally like a police and firefighters union. And that was his primary role. You know, he wasn't mostly a beat cop. But he did, he took leave to go fight in World War II. And he was in, he was in, he was in, direct combat. He got a

purple heart for wounds that he received in Normandy. He'd been in he'd been at the assault on Sardinia and because of his background as a cop, they put him he was both on the role as kind of like a counterinsurgency planner like in theater.

He was responsible for POWs and stuff and detention as well as you know kind of policing the ranks post-occupation in Munich and stuff. That's a resume. I'm not trying to cast an ominous light on Parker, but that's a resume not unlike John Burge,

although Burge, I believe, was engaged in Phoenix Forum, that stuff. For those that don't know, Burge was, he was a homicide police here in Chicago, very feared guy, his name rang out. He got indicted, like, years after he retired from torturing suspects, procuring all these dubious confessions that were procured under duress. But they agreed to us to the military during, like, the draft era, you know, and basically, you know, World War I through NAM. And the relationship of LAPD to the Vietnam War, particularly is very interesting.

Joseph Womba gets into that. We'll talk a little bit of Wamba, but during the World War II era, you know, like there was a lot of guys who, who'd been in heavy action who became cops. Or guys like Parker who'd, you know, already been sworn office or was then left, you know, took a leave, like, you know, to join the service or to be, you know, satisfied a draft obligation or whatever. He got the War Cross. I'm not even going to try and pronounce it. The Croix de Guillae, I think, is what it's called. It's basically the French equivalent of the War on the Cross, maintaining order to the liberation of Paris.

But out of the war, he shot through the ranks, became one of the deputy chiefs. And by 1950, it was... by the year 1950, like, he was a big shot. And he, he, um, he's responsible for not just cleaning up graft at street level, but, you know, kind of a insinuating LAPD from, like, war to politics. There's one of the reasons, too, why, like, mafia guys in the traditional sense, like, couldn't really get a toehold in California.

You know, like, I, I'm sorry to keep citing a Hollywood movie as authoritative, but it draws upon real stuff. And some people are familiar with, you know, like, an LA confidential, there's a scene where, like, Dudley, like, Bud White,

who's, like, his enforcer, you know, he's, like, a goon police. Like, they, they get word that, um,

these, like, East Coast mob guys are, are in Los Angeles for some reason. So, like, Dudley has white

in the goon squad, like, Shanghai, these dudes and, like, take him to, you know, take him to some,

um, interrogation location and, like, beat the fuck out of them. And then they, literally like put these guys like back on a train going back east like all like broken up and and banged up and battered like LAPD did stuff like that and that's one of the reasons LLA was always an open territory like it's not just because LAPD would literally fuck your world up

you know if you were an outsider trying to set up rackets there um but there really wasn't there wasn't like any ward boss you could go visit in L.A you know who it did you know it did you people be like, hey, I'm so-and-so, you know, and my guy vouched for me, like, let's do business. And, I mean, you have, like, you don't have, you don't have, just, like, you don't have the same hood structure in L.A. man. I mean, yeah, it's, like, like, East L.A. is Spanish. Traditionally South Central is black. You know, and then you got, like, Oki and White Hoods. But it's not like Chicago and New York. It's not like there's, like, there's, like, this, like, war system where, you know, you, we're, like, bossism from the ground up is like how you got stuff done so um you know Parker kind of yeah it's like okay any man in the

area has the work cut out for him but you know it it's um it's important to distinguish that Los Angeles was kind of fertile ground for a lot of this stuff and a lot of this kind of social policy experimentation um that's not to see it's a tabular rasa but it's not only that's one reason too like i mean because we just did our california series this is one of the reasons what people are kind of able to project down to california specifically los angeles this kind of confabulated narrative of of its political heritage you know like one way or the other to try and um shore up a mandate of an ideological nature but um you know the uh one of Parker's big things and Gates later ran with this, albeit for very different reasons, but Parker, uh,

Parker dramatically reduced the size of LAPD, and um, he actually militarized it in key ways, not in terms of its ethos, but his whole thing was mobility and, you know, again, like, it's formative experience at command level. And I believe the rank of commander as a police rank came about under Parker's tenure. But, you know, his experience, his form of experience had been in the service, like, you know, in the military. And that perspective shaped LAPD. And, you know, that's more like air mobility by, like, the Vietnam era was a huge thing with LAPD, too. You know, like they make use of shoppers in a way that no other police departments do.

I mean, part of that's just because of the geography and the vastness of the territory they're responsible for. But it's also a very military way of like staying on target. Or I don't know how the police, what their nomenclature is for that. I'm sure they call it something different. That sounds less ominous or direct action-oriented. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th.

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Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, that's a fair point. But the, you know, the, so it's on the one hand. So it's kind of like two competing tenancies. is like the posture of police deployment away from, you know, like, like police literally walking beats in the same neighborhood, so that they're insinuated into the community to, like, rotating officers, you know, so they get like a citywide perspective and get used to kind of interfacing with, with every major population segment. and, you know, switching to police cars over foot patrols.

That was a huge Parker thing because his old thing, too, was like, you know, and being able to swarm, you know, being able to swarm units to reinforce officers in trouble, you know, order to respond to the overwhelming force. Like, that was a Parker innovation. and this stuff speaking of Wamba I highly recommend anything Womba has written

but the onion field which is a horrible story these two LEPD plainclosed cops were kidnapped and one of them was murdered the other guys survived and the way he was treated was horrible

but you know in those days like there wasn't police radios were tied to the vehicle that they were driving. And obviously there wasn't the same kind of modern telecom. And if somebody got the drop on you in those days, and previously if you were told to surrender your weapon, you were like police were told they should comply.

Like subsequently, and this was a Parker innovation, he said, like, never ever surrender your service weapon. you know, like, basically, you should die before you ever give up your weapon. You know, and the police just adopted, like, a more military mindset and, like, across the board. But at the same time, though, you know, like I said, like Parker was very much part of that sociologically progressive, academically polished class of kind of bureaucrats who represented the face 20th century policing. And interestingly, Gene Roddenberry served with LAPD. He's like the Star Trek guy.

I think Star Trek's goofy. I'm not a fan of it. But the original series is very much kind of a time capsule of like the Kennedy 60s, Kennedy era 60s. I realize it endured beyond that. But Captain Kirk is based on William H. Parker. Like literally, like Ronbury said that. and like he knew the guy, you know, and he's like, that's like, Kirk is like this guy who's like this man of action.

But he's also like Mr. You know, he's always like citing Abraham Lincoln and the Constitution. And he's like, he's like Mr. like appealed illegal authority and we do everything by the book. He's supposed to be William H. Parker. Okay. And that's also why like he's got like a multiracial crew and he's got he's got the Russian guy on deck. He's got like the effeminate Asian guy. He's got like the black woman who's like his telecom.

officer. Like, this wasn't just this wasn't just tokenism on television. I mean, yeah, that was part of it, but that was very deliberate. Like, this is, this is William H. Parker's police department in space, you know. Which I think

is interesting. But, um, the idea of kind of, the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Um, and Wambor wrote directly about this. And his, in the, like,

he wrote about this in the onion field. and he mentioned this later in his life. It's an ongoing, like, example of kind of the weirdness of the 60s and kind of the new, the kind of newfangled progressivism of it. It was something going to be called colloquially the Cloakweely the Blazer Experiment, as in a blazer like a sports jacket. And this tourist, this town called, uh, Menlo Park in California.

They hired this, they hired this police chief named Victor Cizancas. Cizancas, I think. I'm butchering that name. Forgive me.

But his Melo Park was added. To say they had a troubled community, the city had troubled community relations, the police department, I mean, would be a gross understatement. Okay. This was 1968.

That's kind of nationwide that these issues were emerging, but it was particularly pronounced in Menlo Park, okay? They've been hit particularly hard by the 1960s. It's located just south of San Francisco, so they caught a lot of the same shit

that the Bay Area proper did. You know, a lot of like, a lot of cultivated student radicalism. When I say cultivated, I mean, you know, the usual suspects, NGOs, and things to do what they can to provoke and orchestrate the kind of thing. But also, just like real, like real, just like organic difficulties between the races, you know, as unfortunately is, you know, Southern California is associated with North and South. the Menlo Park coppers, their reputation as being kind of a kick-ass police department and during racial incidents or anti-war protests that got out of the hand, like the police would go in and kick a lot of ass, okay?

And this caused real problems. All right. So Cisnakus or Cizancas, sorry. Czancas. He's brought in and he's got this kind of like radical orientation about policing.

And it was called the blazer experiment because he did away with police uniforms. He's like, from now on, he's like, we're not, we're not going to wear some paramilitary uniform with a Sam Brown belt and like a, you know, like a piece on your hip. We're not going to do that anymore.

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And there's like this little, like, city crest on, like, the breast pocket. Like, you can, like, Google this, and it's ridiculous. And your weapon, your service weapon was always supposed to be out of view. Okay. either by way of a shoulder holster or, you know, discreetly squirled away like in an ankle holster, you know, because no one's never supposed to see it, you know, and there's this whole,

there's this whole litany of kind of rules for how you're supposed to instigate, like basically a Terry stop. And like even if you have to, even if you have to like, you know, stop and frisk somebody because they're obviously strapped or, because they're up to, you know, or because, like, your police instincts or however they characterize it in those days, tells you that, you know, your spiky senses tell you something you don't like about this suspect. So frisk him and figure out the problem was later, you're supposed to always, like, initiate those contacts by, you know, by asking somebody if they have consent, you know, shit like that. which is fucking stupid.

Okay. It was stupid. It was stupid today. It was stupid back then. And like a lot of this crap is coming back. But these days it's, in combination with various other factors, you know, like policing as it's existed, it's coming to an end. Okay. And so it's kind of interesting to me, like, in 1968,

the P.O. model police work and far from exhausted itself, obviously. But it's interesting on some of this stuff is kind of coming back as if it's an issue of first impression. As people scramble and kind of try and salvage this obsolete model. But, you know, this caused a lot of consternation

among the ranks of police departments. Because obviously there was these like like a lot of progressive types, you know, including Czakis's fans. They thought like this was great, but, you know, cops who were dealing with burgeoning anarchy and real violence, you know, in Los Angeles, in Chicago, in Boston, in Philly, in New York City.

You know, being a cop was a dangerous job then. And, you know, you very much were outgunned You know, you very much, you're in jeopardy then in a way you're not today. You know, I realize there's cops in god forsaken places that are, in fact, under fire a lot. And they don't have the kind of forces in being or the fire power to really be confident, you know, if they get moved on. but that's the exception not the rule like in the 1960s

that was that was the rule not the exception okay um Part of the police department was was was kind of the exception

because like they had all that stuff but um you know like very very very kind of rapidly this uh the blazzer experiment uh

like people realize like this is just not this is not something that's gonna work and uh but the what did uh what what what did linger though is um you know the like like career-minded officers coming from the more academically rigorous backgrounds that's something that endured really until like the early 80s and then by then like that was by then that was done you know um for a lot of reasons part of it was a trickle-down effect of of uh of military industrial and I mean, I know that makes me sound like some Shopsky.

I don't mean it in the same way that people like Key and Zacklites do, but it is a fact. But one of the many kind of kinds of comical things about the blazer experiments, the organizational lingo of the police department was changed. Sargent became managers and police lieutenants. were called directors. Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's a comical bullshit. It's kind, like, of the kind, like, there was some of that, like, the Vietnam era military, like in the Poga, in the Pogue ranks.

But it's just, you know, a very strange era, man. But this, but by the early 70s, all this kind of, all this, all this kind of stuff, had kind of fallen out of favor. even, you know, even, even, um, among, uh, kind of the most ardent, you know, polemicists of, uh, in favor of, of, of, of, you know, police reform, which in their view would, you know, kind of constitute a, stripping of, uh, the ability of a big city police to, you know, to meet, to, to meet, um, threats with, for, um, um, um, um, um. Um, you know, this is like little remembered today, and it's remarkable what kind of short memory people have. And I think about this a lot, especially when there's, when the regime tries to insinuate propaganda about, you know, domestic terrorism into, into policy discussions. You know, during the early 1970s, there was, there was constant, genuine, like, domestic terrorist incidents.

you know, coast to coast. Nixon and Jagger Hoover, who even in the best of times had a very contentious and not at all friendly relationship, to say

the least. This became such a concern that Nixon during June 1970, Nixon hailed Hoover into the Oval Office. And he said to know in certain terms that, quote, revolutionary terror was the greatest single threat to civil order in America at the time. And that wasn't hyperbole.

You know, there was, like, the weathermen were going nuts. there was a half a dozen other, you know, self-declared, you know, Maoist revolutionary groupings that were dropping bodies and pulling off IED attacks. You know, there were, the Patty Hurst incident is almost so strange. Like, that seems like something that, like, if a Hollywood screenwriter had, like, written the Patty Hurst SLA situation into some script. Like people would have laughed at it,

saying there's no way that could possibly happen. But I mean, but it happened. You know, you had a lot of hijacking, a lot of hijacking the planes, too. It became the norm. Yeah, it became something that was as common as,

like, armed robbery. And, yeah, and the, um, the zebra killings, you know, which were, which were horrifying.

You know, and that was, like, part of it was a deliberate suppression of, of reporting on, on, uh, on racially driven violence so as the, you know, preclude escalation and the kindling effect, as it were. But part of it was also, like the zebra killings, people don't know about them. It was this offshoot of the five percenter faction of the N. who call themselves death angels. They went on this rampage of just random torture murders

of white people in the Bay Area. And the police code for these incidents with Zebra. It's ironically accidental that, you know, the implication of Zebra is relating to black

and white striping or whatever. But that was going on at the same time the Zodiac killer was bodying people and taunting the cops so it's kind of overshadowed but this is a real thing you know

and it there were throughout the 70s there was there was hundreds of these incidents every year you know if not thousands rate and small um the uh

I mean in downtown New York even this got This whole kind of air got kicked off. This summer of 69, this commie radical named Sam Melville, him and his cadre, they bombed something like a dozen buildings. Like in downtown Manhattan, you know, from the summer of 69 until like that in November. And then like it's the 70s. As 96 and 1970, it only snowballed. you know i mean um so it was kind of it was kind of fertile ground um for uh yeah by

972 incredible as it is i mean back in these days FBI statistics were substantially more reliable than today in 19702 there was there there's 2,500 politically motivated bombings or iED attacks on american soil that that comes out to five additional. day. Okay. Excuse me. This is totally insane. But that's what lay the groundwork for kind of 1980s policing,

which truly is when things truly became paramilitarized. You know, and Daryl Gates was the standard bearer of that. You know, and Gates is most remembered. I mean, I, Gates was, because I spent so much time in LA as a kid, and Gates was an intimidating guy. You know, like I, and he seemed to, he seemed to paramilitary. You know, like a lot of big city cops either seemed, they seemed kind of like, either like Keystone cop, bureaucrats, you know, like goofs. Or they seemed just kind of like politicians. Like, Gates, like, seemed like a bad dude.

you know and he'd uh LAPD you'd see them uh you know the LAPD they didn't wear ties they'd wear those like uh they'd wear those like um V-neck like buttonedown shirts like a best um they look like super modern and they were all a bunch of like in the 80s they were all a bunch of like buffed out like tough looking guys

you know um I was used to like Chicago cops look like goons and they've always come heavy but they like Chicago cops in the era kind of look like fat ass like mob guys or something you know so like in LA as a kid I was always kind of tripped out by Daryl Gates and LAPD but

you know what Gates is most kind of known for is stuff like the crash program which began prior to Gates's tenure but you know the movie colors like was about

crash, which is an acronym for community resources against street hooligans. It originally was called trash. Total resources against street hooligans. And I would say that references, like, we're like the garbage men because we're taking out the fucking trash.

And LAPD realized like when that went public, well, this isn't like great PR. But, you know, Gates also was the father of SWAT. He devised SWAT, which initially was special weapons assault team.

You know, then they get special weapons and tactics, but Gates divides that during Parker's tenure. You know, and that was actually very forward-looking. Like, one of the reasons why, one of a million reasons why the FBI has, like, his head up his ass, you know, how, like, their direct action capability is still the hostage rescue team and their operational paradigm like until very recently was that treat everything as if it's a hostage situation which makes what makes no sense whatsoever um like gaitz's swat model was that i mean he he actually he proceeded uh he proceeded kind of like a lot of the a lot of the military types who were

dynamically and progressive minded of the day in tactical terms i mean not political terms you know who were around like the special operations forces community. And in those days, I was before there was an integrated command or anything. And it was hard to get anything done. So I get into individual commands. It kind of made or broke everything was, you know, who was in a leadership role.

But for better or worse, LAPD SWAT, you know, they were very dynamic. You know, and there was a kind of a full repertoire of force responses that they trained for, you know, and they were very serious guys. But crash, which culminated in Operation Hammer, which the opening of the movie, Cullors, which I think Cullors is a fucking great movie. But the opening scene

where LAPD, they just like swarmed the city and they basically like, they basically throw bracelets on like every known gang member or like everybody or like every, or every, like, military age male like flying colors and they like throw them in the county jail you know um to kind of get an idea like not like not just uh like said it to literally lay the hammer down and say like LEPD runs the street but uh they wanted to get an understand they wanted they wanted to also like get those guys government names all in the system but they also wanted to get an idea like force levels that like major sets

had you know Cripps blood's 18th street um you know all those all those mobs in South Central and East LA but it was a but that was

sure the end to like community-based policing and so okay we got the sphere plunk of our force that's crash you know every

every police I think there's 18 police districts in Los Angeles and every district had a crash unit like a sign to it but crash

had like citywide jurisdiction like a lot of these guys had been actively gangbanging like before they you know went to the police academy LAPD knew that and they did like vet these guys somewhat but obviously came and you know they ran into problems one of the things that blew the fucking lit off of a rampart scandal is like one of the one of those dudes who was uh affiliated with death throw records like one of their security operatives he was an he was an act of LAPD cop he got into a shootout with some other off-duty cop over like this, over some traffic bullshit. And, um,

dude died. Like, whoever he was throwing shots at, like, you know, return fire and killed him. And, uh,

dude calls it in, you know, the other off-duty cops. Like, yeah, like, you know, I,

like, you know, started squeezing rounds off. Um, like, lo and behold, I found up this guy's a cop. He,

like, works for death row. He's clicked up with, you know, the same set. that like Shug Knight and all them guys were. But that, but that came about, like, LAPD tried to play it off. Like, well, this guy was some bad apple who stood through the cracks.

You know, and unfortunately, a lot of young guys from South Central, you know, are insinuated into that life and are thugging it. No, that's not what happened, man. Like, they, like, the, like, all thing with crash was that a lot of the guys were on record. Like, a lot of their officers were, like, on record with, like, different mobs. That's one of the reasons why they were feared. You know, but that, that's one of the reasons, too. Interestingly also, you know, like Compton Police Department no longer exists.

And they were, they were like a heavy squad, man. Like, they were very tough. But they were kind of like a microcosm of, you know, they had their own culture because, and, I mean, they were, you know, they were their own police department. But they, I think now Compton's police, by L.A. sheriffs. Like, like the the SoCal fellas will correct me, but I think that to his jurisdiction.

But they, it was like the same institutional sensibility in Compton, like in a scaled down way. But, um, like Chicago was different. Like, uh, like Chicago was then like a thug police department and still is

in a lot of ways. But like they did stuff differently. You know, and it was like the big, the kind of share punked of Chicago police, was like the Red Squad, which endured until the 80s. You know, but they, it was just different, but the, it, uh, and less like overtly paramilitary.

I guess that's like part of it. Like Chicago PD, the era is kind of like a movie thief. Like the way, the way those guys, their relationship to the outfit and kind of, it's like the way they do things. It's like, it's like low key, whatever presence. Um, you know, it's, uh, it was a different kind of sensibility, but, you know, that was, um, the big thing, uh, my big memory of Gates, you know, and I remember, like I said, growing up when I, when I'd be in SoCal, like, you know, Gates was on TV a lot. And, and, and, like, a lot of, like, kind of mainstream, like, right-wing guys, like, love Daryl Gates. There's even a video game. You remember, you remember Sierra systems? There's those, those Kings Quest games. okay there was

Kings quest there was Space Quest well there was Darrell Gates police quest for like the F-O-2C and I remember like a friend of mine in junior high like gave me like a copy of it but let me borrow it or something and yeah like Darrell Gates is like the only

police big city police you in America who had like a space in a freaking video game but uh but people there's a there's a bunch of like I remember fools like Morton Downey Jr. like loved Errol Gates. But then the other side, you know, he was like this hate figure for for liberals and stuff. But I remember when poor Reginald Denny got moved on by them people in

South Central, you know, that truck driver got pulled out of his, pulled out of his truck and and beat him in an inch of his life, you know, his skull fractures. There's a horrible case. Gates personally arrested, served a warrants on those suspects. And he was in, like, full riot gear. Which seemed tasteless to me. It's like, okay, first of all, it's not a role appropriate for a fucking police chief. Like, secondly, it's like, you're using this poor guy's victimization as some flex. Like, get out of your man.

It really run me the wrong way. You know, those are very bad times. But Gates, you know, he also, one of the things I emphasize to people about the, about the O.J. Simpson. case is that the state deserved to lose that case. You're not just like entitled to do a verdict when you can't when you can't account

for the chain of custody of your evidence. You know, when you've got like literal clowns like Chris Darden and Mercia Clark heading up your prosecutorial team. But the whole, like you've also don't understand and some of the jurors attested to this, you know, Mark

Furman is a total fucking weirdo. Like a total weirdo. And, like, it's not, everybody's like, oh, people just, people just acquitted OJ because of racism. That's not really what put people off about Furman. I mean, yeah, that didn't help any. I'm sure some of those jurors were, like, ignorant people who were like, oh, he said the N-word. But the context of how those tapes came about were bizarre. Furman was a compulsive liar.

He was a stolen valor case. He lied about being, like, under fire and nom and, like, all these shit. The dude's a fucking psycho. you know like that's the real issue with him and it was pretty obvious he and van adder they basically framed a guilty guy because that's just like what they did and this is like what lapd did you show up on the scene you decide how you know you can fabulate a narrative about how you came upon the inculpatory evidence then you kind of just like arrange it however you want and that's like what you put on record as um you know you know as to what becomes the case in chief. And I've had guys say to me, all police departments did that. I'm like, no, they didn't, man. Like, that's really nuts and really, it's screwy.

You know, that's a scurry way to do it. And unnecessary. You know, like, if they played that straight from jump, they would have gotten their conviction. But, I mean, everything about it was, like, goofy, man. And then, and then O.J., he's an armed man. He's wanted for multiple murder. He's traveling at a high rate of speed to the airport. If I do that, I get shot in the face immediately by like SWAT.

OJ, they're like calling him on his cell phone, like politely asking him to turn himself in. So it's on the one hand you're like framing a guilty guy. We don't need to. But then instead of like throwing the bracelets on him when he's, when he's wanted for double murder, you're like calling him and asking him to come by, like at the traffic tickets. I mean, this is real dysfunction. You know, like, and it's, and that's 110% the fault of the internal, um, leadership cadre of LAPD. It's not like goddamn liberals, like, ruining police order.

Like, they did a lot of this shit to themselves. You know, and having, uh, and having, and having dudes were, like, on record, like, with the Crips or whatever, like, actively gangbanging, like, in LAPD. and it being like totally above board that they're gangbangers but it's okay because oh this is part of how we this is part of how we you know we maintain our our high level of police intelligence vis-a-vis or opt for i mean that's that's totally insane and you can't you can't put that on like the enemies of law and order like that that came from inside oa pb man but um yeah we're coming up on the hour i think man let's let's call it i'll do a part three on joseph wamba and if you want me to or if if yeah that'd be great yeah okay part three we'll cover yeah we'll cover the onion field and joseph wambogs

i think that that's important stuff but yeah oh i also i mean there were 1980 and 1989 there were race riots in miami i mean i lived in miami for you know i lived in south florida because of police shootings and and things it was i mean these were precursor to the um to what happened in LA and they were bad the Overtown riots in 89 I was I was down there for that and no that was no that was no nuts man yeah no I remember it was it was it was scary shit oh it was fucking combat in the streets it was open combat in the fucking streets yeah what in Miami too because of cartel shit and um other stuff there's like a

ton of fucking hardware on the street in Miami man like everybody yeah arm of the teeth. I mean, dudes like shooting it out. Um, with like selective fire weapons like in the shopping mall, like literally. Mac tens were like 200 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy.

Yeah. No, Miami's no joke, man. And especially then. Yeah, you've been all over the south, man. Like, that's, that's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. South Florida. South Florida back in, um, in the 80s. Cocaine Cowboys.

It was bodies dropping everywhere Everywhere. It was like low intensity And sometimes not the low intensity Warfare man No, Miami-Dade police department Was a serious police department too, man Like, yeah, no doubt

That's fascinating stuff Florida is a fancying state, man And people like throw shade on it You know, like Florida man And it's become like a meme I mean And it's got kind of a crazy history going back to something like the black seminals.

You realize the black Seminoles, it was like, it was like outlaw white dudes on the run. It was like runaway slaves, like Indian braves who'd been like cast out of their tribe, whatever, who like became this kind of like mad max sort of mob. That's what the black Seminoles were.

Florida is always been insane. I mean, they never surrendered in the war. And like they, and DC was like, oh, we don't care. We're fucking leave them. Yeah.

No, it's an insane place. And yeah, yeah. No, it's wild. But yeah, no, we'll do a part three then on Wambaw and specifically the Onion Field and some of his other stuff. And we'll get into like the Vietnam War and the OAPD culture because they're inextricably bound up. But no, this was, I'm going, I'm going to the inauguration in D.C. on Saturday.

But I'll only be gone a few days. like back on the 22nd. But if you want to bang another one out before we go, or if you want to do like movie night, we could do that too. Or if you want to wait until I get back, that's fine. But just,

okay. Well, yeah, we'll talk about it. I'll tax you later. Um, do quick plugs and we'll get out of here. I got to go do an OGC meeting.

Yeah, yes, sir. Um, yeah, best ways to find me is on substack. We'll launch in season three of the pod in February, but there's all kinds of good stuff there,

including a pretty active chat. It's a real Thomas, 777. substack.com. I'm on social media at capital R-E-A-L underscore number seven, H-M-A-S-7-7-7.

I'm on Instagram. I'm on T-Ram. You can find me on my website, Thomas-7777.com. It's at number seven and move of a T, H-O-M-A-S-77-com. That's all I got. All right. Thank you.

Let's try and record something before you leave. But if not, have fun. Yeah, no, we will, man. Thank you, buddy.