The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1170: Trump, Netanyahu, Gaza and Our Path Forward w/ Mark Weber

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

70 MinutesMark Weber is the director of the Institute for Historic Review.Mark joins Pete to talk about Netanyahu's trip to DC and Trump's press conference. They also talk about what we need to do to secure the future.IHR.orgPete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Liddle, more to value. Great to see you back at Spex Savers. Okay, could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-S. Deals. Oh, right, yes.

Our Black Friday deals are eye-catching, but the letter chart's over here. Oh, sorry. At Speck Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals, like up to 70 Euro-I. off one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. If you want to support the show and get the episodes early and add free, head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support. I want to explain something right now.

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And, yeah, can't do it without you. So thank you for the support. Head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingino show. Mark Weber is back. How are you doing, Mark? very good good to be with you very good yeah hi uh well we had talked about different subjects to

discuss um in our meeting today and one that i guess we decided upon what you reminded me that nettingahu was going to be in uh meeting with trump uh the day before we record this and it seems to be timely so um yeah what are your uh what are your impressions of that side show that happened yesterday? Well, yeah, we discussed several topics, and I thought that anticipating that Trump would be coming on yesterday, Tuesday, today's the Wednesday, the 5th, that that would be in the news. Well, it's more than just in the news. I think the world, certainly many, many people are stunned by what Trump announced yesterday at a news conference along with Netanyahu in which he announced that the United States was, he said,

going to take control, take over control of Gaza, expel the nearly two million people that live there and turn the place into a what he calls the Riviera of the Middle East. And people were just stunned. Oh, the BBC correspondent who was in the room said he has never been at a news conference. It was as startling and stunning as this. To me, it is very revealing about Donald Trump, and I think really worth going into in great detail because of what it says, not only about Donald Trump, but about U.S. relations with Israel,

about the relationship with Netanyahu, and really the larger U.S. relationship with the Jewish community and with Israel. And so I think there's a lot to say on that subject. And yesterday's announcement will have people thinking and scratching their head maybe, getting angry all around the world. This is, this is, it's really incredible that Trump made this astonishing, astonishing statement. Trump said that we were going to annex Canada and we're not going to do that. Trump said that we were going to annex the Panama Canal.

We're not going to do that. Trump said we're going to take Greenland. That might still be on the table, but that would be a negotiation. Why are we supposed to take this seriously? Well, because this was said, I guess, in a more formal way. Trump was reading from a statement. He had made statements like this before in an offhand way. This was presented in a serious way.

I agree with you that this will not happen for a whole lot of reasons. but it's really revealing that Trump is pushing this and what it says about America and about him really. It shows that Trump really doesn't care about America or the American people in the way that many of his supporters, I think, believe or want to believe that he does. He cares about, well, he brought to this discussion the mentality he's had for most of his life. He made his money as a builder, basically in New York City. He sees world affairs. He sees the world.

He sees human relationships in a contractual business sort of way. And that's why he's talking about turning Gaza into a kind of Las Vegas with no regard, really, for the people who actually live there. And I think that's really Donald Trump's way of looking at the world, looking at himself, looking at life. And I emphasize very strongly, something I've tried to get people to understand for years to really understand what makes this man tick, because millions of Americans in 2016 and also in November have voted for him, putting hopes in him that are really not going to be realized. They can't be realized.

Donald Trump is a, is president. and he became president in 2016 and again, because he was against the establishment. He's a maverick. And his campaign was essentially a reactionary one, an understandable one, a reaction against the trends, the trajectories that have been in place for decades and decades in the United States and Western Europe. And it's obvious to millions of people on both sides of the Atlantic, that the liberal, democratic, egalitarian, universalist ideology, and the policies based on it,

which have been in play since the end of World War II, have failed. They're not working. It's not working out the way we were promised, the way that the people who pushed all these things said it would work out. And Donald Trump called out the hypocrisy, the lies of the establishment, and that's why he gained a tremendous amount of support. But that's about as far as it goes. He doesn't have a coherent, credible vision of what the country should be like other than

he and he sort of thinks people should be winners. He believes in America as a kind of a corporation or a football team that people get pride because it's winning. But that's a bizarre kind of way of looking at things and sort of doesn't understand what I think human beings are really like. He seems to think with regard right now to this Gossip project that human beings are completely economical animals, that all they care about is living well, and if he proposes a better deal for people, they'll go for it. Why shouldn't they? But this doesn't this completely, ignores the motivations that people have who believe that they're fighting for and care about things more than just their own economic well-being and prosperity. This reminds me a lot of what

Trump, the way Trump looks at the Middle East, reminds me a lot of the way Lyndon Johnson looked at the problem of the Vietnam War when he was president. Bill Moyers, who was his press secretary, later talked at some length about a conversation he had with Lyndon Johnson during the war. Lyndon Johnson made an extravagant proposal to the North Vietnamese leader, Ho Chi Men, and the North Vietnamese government about investing billions and billions of dollars if North Korea, North Vietnam would simply stop its war to take over or unify Vietnam, that is, fight in South Vietnam. In other words, he hoped that he could buy off North Vietnam with a luring prospect of a big prosperous development of the Mekong Valley and of North Vietnam.

And Bill Moyers related how Lyndon Johnson said, this deal, this offer is so great, he can't, he won't refuse it. He can't refuse it. And what it showed is that President Johnson didn't really understand that for the Vietnamese leaders and the people who support, supported the effort to unify Vietnam were motivated by not just welfare or a prosperity for themselves or their families. They wanted a unified Vietnam, and they wanted foreigners out. They wanted to determine their own future. And they were willing to die and kill to make that happen. They wanted the Americans out, just as they wanted the Japanese out, the French out, who had been there for centuries. They wanted Vietnam to be a free and independent country, which is eventually what happened. They won. But Lyndon Johnson

didn't understand that either. And Donald Trump, I don't think, understands that in the world, the Palestinians want their independence, that other people around the world, and the Palestinians, and including Zionist Jews, something is more important than just their own economic benefit and welfare. They're willing to die and kill to bring about their own ethnic or national identity and to secure that future for themselves and their children. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items all reduced to clear. Essentials to seasonal must-habs.

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Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited, trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Great to see you back at Spegg Savers. Okay. Could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S?

Yeah, D-E-A-L-S. Diels. Oh, right. Yes, our Black Friday deals are I catching, but the letter charts over here. Oh, sorry. At Spec Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals, like up to 70 euro off one pair of designer glasses.

Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. Donald Trump doesn't seem to understand that. Now, this is an important thing about, Donald Trump. Donald Trump has never said he's for the white race or for America in the way that the founders had envisioned it. He wants America to be a winner. But a lot of that is the kind of mentality that sees America as almost in the same enthusiastic way that people are happy when their football team or their baseball team wins a pennant or wins a World Series that they feel good about themselves. but it's not really to the benefit, long-term benefit of the people. I'm old enough to remember the enormous enthusiasm that Americans felt for Ronald Reagan when he was president. And he made

people feel good because he had a kind of vision of America as this great country. And Donald Trump excites some of that same enthusiasm in his mega followers. But at the end of the of the day, Ronald Reagan signed off on an amnesty for the vast majority of people who were in the country illegally at the time in the Simpson-Mazoli Act. And even though people felt good, the country continued in the same direction, becoming an ever more diverse, third-worldish, multicultural, multiracial society. And that trend did not change. In fact, Ronald Reagan actually helped to speed it up. In somewhat the same way, Donald Trump, even though he has started expelling some of the, many of the illegal aliens who are here in the United States,

he doesn't really care about the character of America, racially, culturally, religiously. What he cares about is that America is a winner. You know, it's an interesting thing that in his inaugural address, Donald Trump mentioned only one American president. He didn't mention George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln. He mentioned William McKinley. And the most striking thing about William McKinley, and most important thing, wasn't his tariffs, as Donald Trump was trying to make the point. It was that he was the person who launched the Spanish-American War. And the Spanish-American War was very popular at the time. Millions Americans were very excited with the idea that America would become an empire. And it did. It became an empire. He declared war against, made war against Spain. Spain was defeated in the United States, gained control of the Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Cuba. And Cuba was put under a kind of American protectorate. Philippines was made a kind of dependency. And Puerto Rico eventually became part of the United States of America.

Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens. Now, that's very impressive to a lot of people. America was big, or it was another, it was, had joined the ranks of the Breed Asian and the French and other imperial powers at the time. But it didn't make the America that the founders of America really wanted better. Puerto Ricans are now U.S. citizens. Is that really what Americans want? Well, not really, but it makes people feel good.

And Donald Trump has a kind of similar idea that he wants. to expand or make powerful America. And in his inaugural address, he even mentioned talking about expanding the territory of the United States. But the result of his bellicose rhetoric, which your question implies he may never actually make happen, has distressed and enraged millions of people around the world. Just in a few weeks since he's taken office, he's managed to. dismay and enrage and confuse millions of people around the world who didn't feel as anti-Trump or as anti-American.

If he continues this, he will make America even more despised than it is already. With the only country in the world, if he carries this on, that gets a big thumbs up from the United States, would be Israel, a country he apparently is more concerned about than any other foreign country. Anyway, these are all interesting aspects of all of this. And it's an astonishing thing even to propose making an American outpost or a colony of Gaza, because this is very different than what even his own supporters ever imagined. The mood in America, and even among Trump supporters, is to get out of foreign wars, to stay away from foreign conflicts, to not be more involved in the interminable conflicts of the Middle East or in other parts of the world. But by his proposal to set up a U.S. controlled riviera of the Mediterranean and Gaza would mean inevitably getting the United States even more deeply involved in the Middle East conflict.

Anyway, those are just some basic thoughts about this whole matter that's really startling. I know that I've been surprised a little bit that even though Trump presented this proposal in a very serious way, It hasn't been talked about as if it's very serious by many people here in the United States so far. It's been very startling to people outside the United States. But I think like you, Peter, they sort of think, well, what else is new? Donald Trump's making another strange proposal. And who knows if it'll ever really happen? People remember, of course, that he didn't follow through on very important and much-heralded promises.

made in his first administration. He promised to build this big wall and Mexico was going to pay for it. In this second administration, he doesn't even talk about building a wall anymore. He was going to take, withdraw American soldiers from Afghanistan in his first administration. He didn't do that. That was finally done by Joe Biden. And so people have a good reason to think that this is just another proposal by Donald Trump that we never actually come to come to fruition. But I'm trying to get to something bigger, not just that whether this particular proposal will work or will ever see the light of day, but that it says something about Donald Trump and how little we can really count on him and how empty the hopes are that millions of Americans have had who have put so

much hope on Donald Trump and his promises to, as he says, usher in a golden age of the United States of America. Ready for huge savings? Well, mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs. When the doors open, the deals go fast.

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So the first thing I saw when I woke up this morning was a national security advisor saying the proposal to take over Gaza is meant to pressure neighboring Arab nations to come up with their own solutions. Then the White House Press Secretary comes out and says that the American taxpayers will not fund the occupation and U.S. troops will not be on the ground in Gaza. And then about two hours ago, the Israeli ambassadors to the United Nations said that Palestinians shouldn't be forced out of Gaza looking at the language. there it says shouldn't be forced out of Gaza, which means that it seems like that implies to me, well, then something, some kind of talks are going to have to happen. And if anything, I mean,

I immediately just wanted to get in touch with a friend of mine who was in the military and participated in war games, did stuff like that. And I asked him, I said, how feasible is this? And he said, well, this is exactly what you'd have to do. And he just list it, lists it sends me a wall of text. And he goes, not feasible at all. So it's not going to happen. I think you may be underestimating. You may be looking at the attitude of the Trump supporter who became politically active in 2016.

They may be older. They've never studied politics in their last. life. They still haven't read a book on politics. They probably still believe that World War II was a good war. And maybe they're like, oh, a golden age is coming in. But I think most people at this point just want to see some kind of change in a positive direction. And when you take into consideration, the other things he's doing, especially what he's doing with USAID, pointing that out, and all of this stuff is coming out about how basically like Politico, was funded by, was basically financed by USAID by American taxpayers.

When you start seeing that, when you start seeing him talk about dismantling the Department of Education, which Republicans have been talking about for 45 years, but haven't done it, I think that people are at the point where, okay, the first Trump administration, I don't think there are most people who would call that an amazing success, especially with the last year of COVID, Operation Warp Speed always gets brought up and yada yada. I mean, believe me, I'm old enough to remember the first Trump administration. And I was speaking out against him when he was doing terrible things too. When he bombed Syria, it was the first thing.

But people are, people want change. Trump is concentrating. It looks like he's going to war, at least what they call the people. post, you know, what we call the post-war consensus. And is he going to win? Is he in it to win it? Is he going to go all the way and go over the finish line? Who the hell knows? I mean, they might just try and kill him again. But, I mean, there's, you know, I mean, immediately, Trump is not a politician. Trump is not a statesman. He is exactly what you described. He's a CEO. That's the way he's looking at it. And I think that that's, at least for the time being, I think that is what the

future is going to be, especially as you're trying to dismantle a managerial state that's existed for 100 years now. I'm happy you say all of this because maybe as a person who tries to compare what's happening with people in the past, I put more weight on the words of people then maybe I should, especially somebody like Donald Trump. In effect, you're saying you and millions of most people are so jaded by the behavior of Donald Trump that they don't expect anything really until they actually see it happen. It's enough that things get a little better, and all his talk is really just to be dismissed as rhetoric, I guess. Well, remember, remember, one of the subjects that we could have talked about was my journey through libertarianism.

And one of the reasons why I left libertarianism is because there's no good. Libertarians only want the perfect. Like, if you're not ending the state right now, they don't care. And I'm one of those people who I would like to see Jewish power demolished. I mean, destroyed. Yet, that's, I mean, that's not in the cards right now. I mean, maybe sometime down the line. And I think everyone who voted for Donald Trump, who also concentrates on Jewish power like

I do, knows that he's not going to destroy, you know, go after Jewish power and seek to destroy it. But we're willing to see what can actually, what kind of building blocks can be built. can be set up towards a future down the line where we're no longer a Zionist occupied government. And I mean, the way I looked at that press conference was he was basically spitting in Netanyahu's face, right in his face to him. He laid out everything. He laid out that Gaza was unlivable.

Well, who's responsible for that? He, I mean, Netanyahu was blindsided up there by what was being said. And I don't, that doesn't tell me that they're mortal enemies and he wants to destroy him and he wants to see him out of power as much as most of the people in Israel want to see Netanyahu out of power. But it does tell me that maybe he's, maybe Donald Trump is a, you know, the whole thing. thing about 40 chess that they talked about. Oh, he plays 40 chess. In the first, in the first, term, he didn't play 40 chess at all. And in this term, what he's doing is he's just coming in with a

sledgehammer and he's just tearing stuff apart. I mean, getting rid of the affirmative action executive order from Lyndon Baines Johnson, who would have ever thought of that in their lifetime? Who would ever thought they would have seen that in their lifetime? Just that one thing. Or the J6 prisoners being all pardoned. And I'm sure there are people out there who just want to blame. that whole thing on him. Well, you didn't do anything. What could he do? He was at office. Okay. Well, those are good points. But Netanyahu's reaction was not somebody who was either blindsided or unhappy. He was very happy that Donald Trump said what he said. In fact, I got the impression that Donald Trump had a meeting with someone who's a lot more focused,

a lot more intelligent, a lot savvier than he is. And Netanyahu was able to get him to bend to his will as he has repeatedly. As Netanyahu was, Israel was pushing for the U.S. attack on Iraq with George W. Bush in 2003. And he did it, even though virtually everyone who knew anything about the Middle East predicted the fiasco that it turned out to be. But he did it anyway. And Netanyahu has bragged in private about his ability to make America, American leaders do what he wants them to do.

I mean, with specific regard to with Gaza, Trump can say several things. He can say, well, Gaza should be ruled by the people who live there. Or he could say Israel should control Gaza. Or, and this is what he did say, say yesterday, America's going to control Gaza. We're going to take control of it, he says. And Netanyahu probably thinks, well, that's a good way because now it doesn't look like, hey, we're just standing back and letting America take care of the problem, let America take

the blame, let America do all of this, and then we'll benefit from all of this, because after America's done, building the whole thing up and kicking everybody who lives there out, we'll get control of the whole thing. And in line with that, the more hard line members of the Israeli government responded to the plan by saying, great plan, we're all in. Let's go. Let's do it. Public opinion polls in Israel show that the vast majority of Israeli Jews now want to expel all the Palestinians. If nothing else happens out of all of this, then Yov was happy. That's been a majority for us. And now Donald Trump is making American policy to support the expulsion of all of these people.

That hasn't happened before. That's a new thing, and that's a big win for Netanyahu and for those people who want an expanded Israel. It's not a diminution, a decrease of Israeli Jewish power. It's a win for them. And the proof of that is that those people who are the most ardent fighters for Jewish power and Israeli hegemony are happy with what Don Trump said yesterday. They're not unhappy. I think the proof of it is when you see it happen.

That's the proof of it. The proof of it is when you actually see it happen. I mean, you're right. You already have the ambassador, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations counter signaling what Trump said yesterday. Why would he counter signal that if everybody's so happy about it? If Netanyahu walked out of there so happy about all of his dirty laundry being shared on the stage and Trump talking about, well, we're going to take this over, why is Trump immediately backing down and going, no, we're not going to put boots on the ground? No, we're not going to pay for that.

No. It seems, I mean, we can talk about his, about how terrible. historically his negotiation tactics are. And maybe this isn't, well, not maybe, but statesmen shouldn't be negotiating this way. But, I mean, basically at this point, it doesn't look like boots are going to be on the ground. It doesn't look like anybody's going to be paying for it.

It doesn't look like anyone's going to war. And it looks like Israel has already told their ambassador to walk back what treasurer. Trump said yesterday. So I'm, I'd be interested. I don't know. I mean, I can only go, I can only go by what people, if we're going to go, if you're going to, if you're going to use what people are saying as an example of this is, hey, Israel one, well, I'm, then I guess I'm going to have to use other people, their own words to say, they're back and down. And this seems kind of odd. Well, okay. I didn't hear that the Israeli ambassador said that. He may say that. This may be back and forth. But there's no question, I think, that Jewish power is not at all diminished in terms of U.S. policy with the Trump administration compared to how it was even with the first Trump administration of the Biden administration. Now, having said that, what is happening in the world, though, is, a real rise, an enormous increase in awareness about the real nature of the Israeli state, the real nature of what Israel has done and is doing. And the world has gotten a tremendous education since October 7th about just how brutal, how oppressive Israel can be,

not just the Israeli government, but supported by the Israeli public. And Donner, Trump has done nothing to tamper down on that. He hasn't said even a single word of caution or whatever offsetting any of that. If anything, the press conference yesterday was a green light for a new wave of oppression, of killing, of dispossession that Israel has been carrying out. I mean, the big question of yesterday's meeting between Netanyahu, and Trump was not just immediately about the hostage deal, it was who's going to control Gaza after the war is over. And there was a lot of talk and speculation, of course. There'd be something like some outside force would come in, the United Nations, some multinational force, maybe the

Palestine authority. But Donald Trump has set all that aside and said, basically, Palestinians aren't even going to have a say in what the future of Gaza is going to be. And he's on board with that. And of course, Netanyahu supports it. Yeah, you're right. We have to go by what the actual policies, the actual results of the policies are. And on that basis, Israel is stronger than ever. having said that, it's actually weaker in the sense that its position in the world is much, much less than it was a year and a half ago. I mean, Israel is held in Netanyahu is in danger of being arrested in many of the countries of the world because there's an international warrant for his arrest. But I suppose what we can say all of this is by what happened yesterday and even to

have a government in place like Donald Trump, that nobody can count on its leaders meaning what they say or saying what they mean. This is a sign of a country or of a government or a society that is really falling apart. Because a healthy society is not one that is saying one thing and doing another and playing, as you say, 4D chess. It has to be to be to, to be, to be stable, to be predictable, is important for any healthy society. And Donald Trump, I guess you're saying that the chaos and the confusion he sews is all part of a bigger plan. Well, maybe it is, but the consequences for America and for any country and for the world are very bad. People want and crave and have an understandable desire for at least predictability and a clear vision of the future

and then policies that try to go to that vision. Donald Trump doesn't have that, and he's not able to do that, and he wasn't able to do it in the first administration. He's not able to do it now. You're right. We have to judge by the end result, and the end result is he's, I mean, he is a reactionary president. He personifies the unhappiness that millions of Americans have, people throughout the European Western world, with the direction we've been going in. And he's opposed to that, but he has no real vision himself of the kind of country he does want to have. Anyway, that's, so yeah, we have to, of course, see, and I've said that, I've been saying that for months now. I'm very happy that Trump is in office, if for no other reason, that finally will get to see what the policies actually turn out

to be. So that's, I guess, beyond that, neither of us are able to say with any certain what will happen because Donald Trump is the kind of man that he is. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28th to 30th

because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal mustabs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Lidl New Bridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value.

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Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunebiog, Kush Farage. Well, yeah, and I agree with you on much of that. I would ask, and I'm not implying at all, that this is what he's doing, as far as, like, I'm not implying at all that he is. is playing 40 chess to destroy Jewish power to say one thing, even get other countries and other cultures mad at us. But I mean, if there was someone who came along who did decide that he was going to

take down Jewish power, try to take down Jewish power, and he did stuff like this, that he was completely intense on it. And he said one thing out of one side of his mouth, but he was meaning another. I don't think we'd have a problem with that. Right, right. I guess another way to look at this is a Donald Trump administration more likely than a Democratic administration to speed up the dissolution of America, to speed up the decline and the breakdown of America.

This is an argument and a discussion that many, many people have been having for several years. And you could, there's, there's good points to be made on both sides of that argument. Is America more likely to break up, is Donald Trump more likely to speed up the breakdown of America or is a Democratic, is Camilla Harris or Joe Biden more likely to do that? I guess we'll never know, but Donald Trump is contributing in his own way to that, to that breakdown by by his, by his rhetoric, but even his actions. Well, you know, what I would say is, and I've been saying this for a while now, at least for over a year, is that I've concentrated,

I've been talking about localism for concentrating on your local area more than anything else for, you know, for years now. And, you know, I know Jared, Jared Taylor has been really pushing that forward a lot lately. But what I would say is if Donald Trump is ushering in the destruction of the United States or if he's if he's ushering in a golden age, local politics is going to be more important than ever. Because along with that destruction, obviously we know what comes along with destruction that we're going to have to rely upon ourselves. We're going to have to rely upon our neighbors and our brothers, the people you go to church with all that. but if there's a golden age, a golden age immediately implies that welfare and handouts get cut off. So you would have to start planning locally either way.

So the way I look at it is if he is ushering in the destruction of the United States or he's ushering in a golden age, local politics is the only way to go because either way, you're going to have to rely upon the people who are the most immediate, around you on, you know, whichever fork in the road that takes. I don't disagree at all. No, that's all true. And yeah, it almost doesn't matter whether a Democratic or Republican president is more likely to hasten the breakdown of the country or not. What's important is that we concentrate on each of us doing what we can in our own. way locally in our own with from our own from our own vantage point to do what we can to raise awareness and to do what we can that's that's that's that's I agree completely well here's

here's something I'll ask you um so I've heard numbers coming out of Israel that you know people just don't like Netanyahu now whether I know there is a huge liberal leftist like you know multicultural like Tel Aviv is the gayest considered to be the gayest city on the planet. These aren't people that like Netanyahu. There's other factions. I think Netanyahu isn't doing enough to destroy the, to destroy the Palestinians. I've also heard that up as many as 30,000 small businesses have filed bankruptcy in the last 18 months because you just can't do business in a country that's getting bombed all the time is you have people coming over the border in the north,

looking to kill, you know, looking to kill Israelis. No matter what, well, absent putting troops on the ground and, you know, putting American troops on the ground, double, you know, tripling the amount of fighting people there and pouring money into it. I mean, does Israel, even with Donald Trump's support, even if it's only verbally, Does Israel survive this?

I've been involved with Israel and Palestine issue since I was, well, for many years. For a while, I worked for, in his day, probably the most prominent and outspoken anti-Zionist, the Jewish writer in America, Alfred Lillianthal. This is back in the 1970s. and I've been following this for a long time, and I've always regarded Zionism as an aberration in Jewish history. With very few exceptions throughout all of history, Jews have been successful, not in a state of their own, but as a people who thrive on developing a relationship with another host population. Jews have are very attuned to varying their message and how they act in each country with a very, very fine-tuned awareness of the mentality of the people among whom they live. And that works for a while.

That makes from one place after another, whether in Babylon or Egypt or Spain in the 14, 15th centuries, Europe, the United States, Jews are very attuned, and they also help shape the media on how people think in whatever society they're in. But the result has always been the same. The same cycle repeats itself over and over. Eventually, people become very unhappy with the Jewish role in their society. And inevitably, there's a reaction. the Jewish population is kicked out, killed, driven out. And Jews understand that. The Jewish narrative of history is that this cycle repeats itself over and over, and then Jews go to a new country, and the whole pattern, the whole cycle repeats itself. And so Zionism is really an aberration, because the whole premise of Zionism is that Jews should become a normal people.

They should have a country of their own, and Jews should live there. And if they don't live there, they shouldn't be considered Jews anymore. They should either go or they'll be assimilated and gone. And that vision of how Jews should be is what Zionism is, modern Zionism, was supposed to be. It's laid out in the manifesto of Zionism, the Jewish state by Theater Herzl, the Jewish writer who compended in 1897, and at first it was resistance to it, but it became increasingly a popular idea. Now, the problem is that the state of Israel has never fulfilled its promise. It was supposed to be, quote, a normal country, a self-sufficient country.

That's not happened. From its very beginning to the present, Israel to even stay in existence has required. tremendous outside help and support from outside, not only from Jews outside of Israel, but more importantly from governments, especially the United States government, to a lesser extent, the German government, and others have given Israel and allowed it even maintained it so that it could even stay in existence. Secondly, the Jews were supposed to go to move in Israel. The truth is that most Jews prefer not to live in Israel. better individually living outside of Israel. And it's especially true now because Jews are actually

safer and live better in Chicago or Berlin or even Moscow than they do in Israel itself. And Israel also supposed to be a normal country and that it was supposed to live in sort of peace and some sort of tolerable relationship with its neighbors. In fact, from 1948 when Israel was founded the present, as everyone knows, it's been in constant turmoil and conflict with people in and around its borders. And so it's been an abnormal country in that way. And increasingly, Jews see this. They're not happy about it. They're embarrassed. Increasingly, Jews are outside of Israel, are embarrassed by their country. And so it's an aberration. And you touched on just the economic situation in Israel proper, the cost of living is very high in Israel. It's not easy to live

there. And not just that there's wars and problems like that, but there's a kind of tension to Israel. You talked about Benjamin Netanyahu is not very popular. That's true. He's held in a kind of contempt. One of the remarkable things is when Benjamin Netanyahu comes to the United States, at least before this visit, he always spoke to Congress and got standing ovations, something that the U.S. Congress does not give to any American leader, and the Israeli parliament does not even give to Netanyahu. He's more rapturously applauded in the United States than he is in his own country. Now, having said that, the problem in Israel is that there's no other figure as adroit cunning, capable of holding together a fragile coalition in the country and the country is divided as Israel

as Benjamin Netyahu. He has problems within his own coalition, but there's no obvious replacement for him. And even people that don't like him will still support him because they're even less happy with any alternative. That's a expression of just how fragile, how divided, how confused Israeli society is internally. He has a bare majority in the parliament of Israel. He has factions and disagreements within his own administration. And he also, I mean, this is a common view in Israel, is that Medjimaniahu wants to continue the conflict with Gaza and the Palestinians, because once peace, quote-unquote, returns, then it'll go, then the effort will be resumed. to try to bring him to justice for corruption.

He's considered, even by Israelis, he's considered a slippery, deceitful, a dangerous sort of fellow, but he's sort of our guy. And so they support him in that way. There's not a single world leader who's dealt with Netanyahu over the years who doesn't privately think he's mendacious, that he's a liar. and virtually every, I mean, Emmanuel Macron in France, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, everyone privately knows that that's the kind of man Netanyahu is, but that's the reality. And so they deal with it and they don't talk about it publicly. Now, so the Israeli experiment, maybe even

coming to an end. Elon Pape is a very prominent Israeli historian. He's a critic of Netanyahu. He's critic of the Zionist experiment. He's done a great deal of pioneering work in showing how right from 1948, Israeli leaders embarked on a conscious effort to kick out, expel as many non-Jews as possible from the new Jewish state, something that was covered up or not really well, very well understood. And Ilan Pape just said in a recent interview, he said he thinks that the Zionism is coming to an end. Israel's, and it's really, even though it's more blestrous and boisterous and aggressive right now, these are signs really of weakness that Israel may be, he thinks,

is coming to an end. He says, I don't like to make predictions as a historian, but these are signs really of a society that's actually very weak. I think a similar thing could be said about the United States. I've made comparisons with the United States today and the British Empire. In 1939, when Britain declared war against Germany, the British Empire was larger than it ever had been. After World War I, the British Empire got even bigger taking, as France did, some of the parts of the former German and Ottoman Turkish Empire. But Britain was already on the decline for people who understood.

the rise and fall of countries and of societies, it was already obvious that during the time of the Boer War, and already during the First World War, that Britain was not a very healthy society. And people confuse the outward expressions of power, empires, military, and so forth. In 1939, the British Navy was still the number one by far most important naval power in the world. But Britain was really weak, really internally. It was not a healthy society. And that's true of the United States today. It's not a healthy society. There's something very weak. And going back to Israel, yes, I mean, I'm going to double down on this. It has severe problems. The birth rate of Ashkenazi Jews, of better educated Jews, is very low. And the population of Israel proper, I mean, Israel not including the West Bank or Gaza, which is a very low, about 20% Arab or non-Jewish anyway, increasingly is there's a higher birth rate among the non-Jewish Arab population and among Orthodox Jews. And Orthodox Jews themselves have their own reservations about the Israelis, the Zionist experiment and so forth. And they don't

fit very well into a modern or a secular society. In fact, one of the biggest arguments going on in Israel in recent years is whether the ultra-Orthodox should even be recruited into the military. But these are all signs of internal problems within Israeli society. But anyway, to sort of sum up, yeah, there's some big major problems in Israeli society highlighted by two major things. One is many, many Jews, even Israeli Jews prefer not even to live in Israel. They want to leave because they can make a better living. for themselves elsewhere. And that's not unusual in Jewish history. The vast majority of Jews

throughout history have lived among non-Jews, and they do well better that way than on their own. And second, the events of the last few years have underscored that the state of Israel requires needs huge infusions of support and aid from outside, in this case the United States, even to stay in place. And so those are signs really of great weakness. this in Israel. But anyway, that's my kind of response to your question about what's the future of Israel or how it's looking. Yeah, I would say that, you know, Zionism, the state of Israel is basically an

anachronism now. But, you know, before Zionism, there was a problem. Yeah, I'm reading 200 years together now with Dr. Matthew Raphael Johnson. and it comes back to the question of how do you, how do you live in a society? How do you have a society when there is a group of people, very small, very well organized, very motivated. In most cases, in a lot of cases, have international financing.

I mean, how do you live with them? How do you have a society in a culture of your own when history tells us when they come into your society, they seek to take over? Right. Well, this is what's commonly called the Jewish question. I know that's considered more or less anti-Semitic even to use the phrase, but it's the phrase that everybody used, including Jews, used it. The Jewish question is basically a perpetually puzzling one. What's the relationship and should be the relationship between Jews and non-Jews in society? That's a difficult one. And Theater Herzl, in his book, The Jewish State, lays this out rather well. He said the reason there's tension and problems between Jews and non-Jews and has been,

from the beginning to the present, is because of the particular. peculiar nature of the Jewish relationship to non-Jews. Jews insist on maintaining a separate identity and a separate agenda, even as they live among people different than themselves. And so, theater Herzl lays this out that it's absolutely understandable. In fact, it would be bizarre otherwise that non-Jews resent this because Jews are not really fully in. Their agenda and their identity and their interests are not the same as the people among whom they live. That inevitably leads to this tension and conflict, and Theodore Herzl lays this out in the Jewish state that that's inevitable, and he says he understands that. That's why he called Zionism the final solution.

That's the term he used to the Jewish question. Now, and every society has to go through a process or has gone through a process like that. When I was, I mean, the assumption in America for many, many years is that the magic of American society would make everyone sort of assimilate into a new kind of American identity. When William Buckley was in his prime, he was by far the most influential so-called conservative thinker for decades, he once said, well, with the passage of time, he said, and the World War II gets recedes further into the past, Jews will just become like everyone else. And this kind of Jewish problem will go away. And he also predicted that with the passage of time, blacks would stop thinking of themselves in terms of the legacy of slavery. Well, he was wrong. But the point is, that was the

assumption that Americans operated on for many, many years. The assumption is, well, okay, we have these different identities that are left over from the old country, you could say, but with the passage of time, everybody will sort of assimilate and will all sort of be Americans. That's the kind of ideal that was propagated again and again in the United States. That's all changed. Now, it's very clear that Jews, of course, not all Jews, but the majority of Jews still regard themselves as a distinct people. And this is the whole premise of the whole Jewish thing. I mean, and as you well know, I mean, this is laid out by any number of writers, and it's in the Old Testament, it's in the Jewish Torah, that Jews regard themselves as not like other people. They're a separate people. And this is a

central defining feature of the Jewish identity. So today that's all falling apart as the kind of idea, this liberal democratic idea of a proposition society is all falling apart. And people can see that. And that's the big challenge, I think, for the years ahead. Isn't that all these other groups, Jews, blacks, and so forth, are conscious of themselves as a different people. That is not like white America or not part of the American idea. But white Americans, for the most part, still insist on upholding what is basically a delusional idea that we can have a kind of European, Western society, even if the population is no longer Westerners, no longer Europeans. And that, I think, is the great challenge.

You know, in his inaugural address, Donald Trump went out of his way to thank black Americans and Hispanic Americans who voted for him. He didn't mention white Americans. And the reason he didn't is because, I think, for him and for his own people, they take that for granted. They think that's not even necessary to mention. And for a long time in American history, when the population was 90 years, 85% white and non-whites were basically invisible, then they were able to sort of take that for granted,

to take for granted that the view that almost everybody, including foreigners, had that America is this kind of white country. But the white population, the European population of America now is, or very well, very soon will be a minority. And that will have consequences. That trend has been continuing will continue in the years ahead, regardless of whether Donald Trump deportes a million or two million or not illegal aliens in the United States. That same basic demographic trajectory is still continuing. But anyway, my point is that we're coming to a time where it's no longer possible to just take for granted what used to be taken for granted, not only about white Americans and their identity in this country called the United States of America, but also for Jews.

And we're coming to a time, which has been a trend going on for a while now, of increased and ever more pointed racial ethnic identity. And the one group in America that so far is still resisting that are white America, European Americans, and especially Donald Trump supporters and Donald Trump himself. He sort of thinks he can sort of take that all for granted. And that's not true. It can't be taken for granted. And that will become even more obvious, I think, as the Donald Trump administration comes along and even more after Donald Trump's out of the White House. Yeah, I mean, I can't make excuses for somebody who doesn't, you know, isn't race. aware but I mean he's an almost 80 year old man in the United States I mean that's just

what they've been taught it's just the colorblindness it is you know the civil right they champion the civil rights act like it was uh yeah like it was as great a victory as world war two I mean I have trouble I wish there were people in power or seeking who had that, understood that. But, I mean, it's just not in the cards now. And it's one of, you know, it's just, I can't yell at leaders, even ones that I like for not, not saying that, especially if they don't, if that's not something that they believe, you know,

it's just, it's so ingrained. There's so much that needs to be unlearned that has been put into us in the last hundred years that, yeah, It's going, it's, it's either going to all fall apart or people are going to start waking up. And I think, I just think it's going to fracture. And I'm not saying, you know, like, secession. There are going to be secession movements and we're leaving the United States. I think it's just going to be de facto.

I think people are just going to separate. And I think white people are going to go live with white people and black people are going to flock to black people. And Spanish are going to do that the same. And, you know, I mean, you already, the Tehano community in Texas is tight, has been tight-knit for, you know, a couple of centuries. You know, so, yeah, I mean, I just think that's, that's where it's coming to expect, you know, the people I know who call themselves like white nationalists. Like, that's how, you can be, there are people who are white, there are people who are nationalists. And then there are people who call themselves white nationalists. And when I, I listen to people who call themselves white nationalists.

nationalist the way I listen to libertarians who are talking about how everything would just be great because the government is the government is the cause of all our evil so we have to get rid of the government and they're talking about you know it's like well we're not unless we have a white ethno state well you can have a white ethno state you're just not it's not going to happen on a mass scale you're going to have to do it it's going to have to be at scale and that scale is going to be small and you know if you go and do it don't announce it don't tell people don't you know don't be like, we're all going to move over here because we're all white. We all have a, and I have no problem with that.

I want to see that. Just shut up about it. You know, we don't live in a, we don't live in a society. We don't live in a, in a spirit of the spirit of this age isn't that. Just go do it. It will be. It's changing. You just, you're going to have to build it on your, you have to build what comes next now.

Because if everything does fall apart and you, you're not ready, you're going to be in pain, you're going to be hurting, your people are going to be hurting, so you need to organize now if you do think everything is going to fall apart. Right. We're not in disagreement. These things happen organically. It don't happen because somebody just wishes it to happen. I think a comparison can be made to the mentality, the outlook of Americans or the people who lived in the 13 colonies in 1775. 1776, when opposition to taxation by Britain took political form and delegates from the 13 colonies met for the so-called Continental Congress, the identity and the outlook of those people was still

that they were loyal British subjects, they respected the King of England, and they petitioned, though, to get what they regarded as their rights within the British Empire. And it wasn't until people fighting started, bloodshed, blood was shed, that a big change took place in mentality, in outlook, in identity. The big change was changing the view that the white Americans of the 13, colonies were British subjects and British and loyal to the King of England to the identity that they're not. They are Americans. They are separate people. And that took place very quickly over a very short period of time. It was exacerbated. It was propelled a lot by this pamphlet by

Thomas Payne, common sense in which he said basically, no, we're a separate people. And that's, I think that kind of change is absolutely necessary, and I think it will happen on a slower or faster basis when white Americans realize that the important thing is not that this thing called the United States of America is great or stays in place, but who we are, the identity, who's the we? And to me, the great question of our time and a great question for every great transitional period in human history is, who's the we that we're talking about? Who are we? And for most mega Americans and so forth, the we're all Americans and the other non-white Americans to sort of be like we are. That's not going to happen. It isn't happening. But at this point, why do we? Americans still delude themselves into thinking, well, if we just have the right attitude, if we just can, why can't we all just go along, then it'll all sort of work out. And the one expression of that is that Republicans and Maga Republicans insist that the Democrats are the party that

really is bad because they talk about race all the time. We mega people, we trump people, we just want to be individuals. Well, no society is a healthy society is a society just of individuals. They have to have more to hold them together than just individuals. Human beings are social beings. And social beings, as social beings, we prefer to live and we should live in societies of people like ourselves and societies in which our leaders are like ourselves and represent our interests. That's the normal way that human beings have lived, do live in a healthy society. Americans are still very confused about that. And the great challenge, I think, for the years ahead is the breaking down of delusional ideas about who we are and what America is and what it

should be. And that's going to be an even more telling, pointed, acute question in the months and and certainly in the years ahead. Oh, I agree with you 100 percent. Everything you said there is absolutely perfect. And yeah, that's some work to do there. And, you know, we need leadership too. We need people who are willing to take leadership roles. And because, you know, is always a leader at the head of this. And I think we see a lot of that. So, yeah, this was great. And I really appreciate the back and forth.

I love to, most of the time when I do shows, I'm completely agreeing with everybody. And to have a little bit of back and forth was wonderful. I really appreciate that, Mark. Thank you. Good. Yeah, likewise. Great.

Yeah. focus our own thinking and our own our own dialogue. I think you and I want the, I think you and I want the same things. It's just a matter of, you know, how do we get there? And that's always, that's always the argument,

isn't it, it's how do we get there? It's, is it, is it baby steps? Is it, is it, you know,

all of a sudden, there's this massive change. And I think with technology and the internet, it's just so much easier to find your own people that, things can happen a lot quicker than people think. Well, Peter, I like to express the compliment because it's precisely the kind of show that you have and the work that you and many others are doing that is speeding that process along. And it's a necessary part of all of that. And I'm very encouraged by the coming to age of younger people who get it all, who, get it all, who

understand that, who see all of that in a way far more clearly than I did when I was that age. But that's developing. And it's not something artificial. It's based on a recognition of a reality that more and more people see. But I think you're doing a great job in contributing to that organic process. Well, what I do want to say is, you know, we can disagree on, you know, when I disagree, with you, I take into consideration you've been doing this for a long, long time. And it's guys like you that have paved the way for what we're, you know, what we're experiencing now, the kind of,

especially the kind of organic movements that are happening in real life. And thank you. And just please promote, promote what you want to promote. And we'll, we'll end the recording. Okay. Thank you very much. Well, I do encourage people who are listening to check out our website, iHR.org, Institute for Historical Review, and you'll find a lot more on these and other related subjects. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. I always enjoyed talking to you. Thank you. Likewise. Okay. Bye-bye.