The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1179: The Life and Thought of Oswald Mosley w/ Thomas777 - Part 3

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

64 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas and Pete continue a series exploring the life and work of British Union of Fascists founder, Oswald Mosley.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Lidl, more to value. And now, this is over the same to himshire. It's leargoal to the Glewere and not so that you're in Aundunuch, and learn the Gala to give a time of either. In Ergird, we're going to talk in one-hae to find out of unwaugh. It's a lot of you to do you know of Acknowigant of lecturers on as to go ahead of all the town, gnaw, and people tariff in one of the ASTI.

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you see that I'm putting out two, even three a day. And yeah, can't do it without you. So, thank you for the support. Head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingana show. Thomas is here for part three. talking about Mr. Oswald Mosley. Are you done, Thomas? I've done well, thank you. So I think that's important to understand. There's a few things, and they're all related in terms of a substantive significance.

You know, Oswald Mosley, other than a Sinn Féin MP who was boycotting the House of Commons, he was the youngest member of parliament and he was viewed as this prodigy and uh churchill viewed him as something of a rival okay and in those days the tories weren't really the ruling party i mean they weren't at all like the coalition that ultimately kind of morphed into the tories was but really the only thing they had in common was legacy membership and a kind of class consciousness that they inherited. The coalition that Mosey ultimately joined when he went to the House of Commons, it was the Liberal Party, not the Liberal Democrats, the Liberal Party, which was defunct by the 80s, okay? and the liberal party had a split between unionists who like refused to accept home rule in Ireland as the civil war was raging and guys who had a more moderate perspective on it

and these guys were were in coalition with the conservatives contra labor and those days labor was a revolutionary party like they weren't communists but they were close you know and Mosley, his big thing was that there could never be another war like the Great War. And despite the way that he's slandered by court historians, he was in heavy action as an aviator. He was catastrophically wounded, admittedly, like, you know, during a training maneuver, but he'd been wounded in action before that, although not critically. You know, and like I said, he was at EPRA where, you know, young Lonzer, Edolf Hitler, was in action.

I mean, Moseley was literally witnessing that with a bird's eye view. Like, he saw the first poison gas assault, you know, and a bunch of men in his squadron, like, went down in combat. You know, like, he was trying to gallows humor about that. So he wanted to salvage the League of Nations, but it's a collective security kind of arrangement. Even when Wilson, um, threw his hands up and subsequently, you know, the U.S. Congress refused to ratify it outright.

Mosey said, look, like, we need some kind of collective security arrangement, you know, and despite backing the imperialist position, which wasn't a dirty word then, you know, he said, we've got these manufacturers and if we want to continue to be a great power, you know, our competitive manufacturing needs a destination. It needs destination markets. And saying we're going to like perpetually be at war with the Germans to fight over those. It's not liable. You know, and he's like if half the planet can't purchase our manufacturers

were done. You know, so he was a free trader with qualifications. And in those days, like free trade didn't mean we're going to throw the borders open and we're going to socially engineer identitarian things out of existence. Like Mosey made the point, he was a huge immigration restrictionist. You know, he said, like, this is going to become a problem. You know, and because he was an aviator, not only did he have a very deep understanding of the technological curve and how future shock impacted things sociologically at scale. But he understood with his mention of the mobility of human populations.

You understood also, like, you combine that with mass literacy. with the kinds of things that Schengler discussed and man and techniques and the hour decision. You know, Moseley was like something of a racialist. I mean, like I am, but he didn't have ideas that like, oh, the colored world are stupid, or there were a bunch of monkeys. Or they, he's like, look, these people are going to master technology. And some of them are as capable of managing it as a white man. You know, you're going to have to deal with that reality.

you know and one of the things that we're going to have to be aware of is that are sure is it going to be swarmed kind of like with the world's wretched and poor like not even by design although you know although he acknowledged like that was part of something that was in the in the cars but he's like you know just the there's going to be masses of people who can't adjust to the future which is arriving with punctuated rapidity you know and they're they're going to be a trap to, as Hitler said, the works and structures of superior men. You know, so Mosey was a complicated guy, okay? And it would ultimately cause his defection to the Labor Party, and then his founding of a fascist party was these values that I'm talking about. You know, it wasn't some opportunist thing. And mostly wasn't this marginal figure Or this aristocrat

This lesser aristocrat Who was out bad with the establishment Who struck a protest pose Like I think some people look at like the rotter-exposed caricature And they confuse that like with the man It'd be like if people like took like the Charlie Chaplin movie And we're like, yeah, that's Adolf Hitler He was really like that

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by the Central Bank of Ireland. Great to see you back at Spex Savers. Okay. Could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-S. Deals. Oh, right. Yes.

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Like these are Mosley, like, people don't realize, like, he really was, he was almost like Kennedy was, like John F. Kennedy in, like, his early career. He was like this war hero, and he was a big womanizer because, like, you know, ladies all liked him, because he looked like a matinee idol. He cultivated this kind of incredible, aptitude at rhetoric. You know, and when he was basically not much more than a teenager, you know, you had, you had parliamentarians, like, guys are real pedigree.

And in the UK, that shit matters to this day, like stepping over themselves to draft him onto their front bench. You know, he was a very serious guy. You know, one of the things that drew a wedge, he, he, he, he, he was a very serious guy. things that drew a wedge, he was branded a class trader and he was out bad with, and I'll get into this in a minute, with the men who'd basically vouched for him and whose coalition he led these liberal unionists in coalition with, you know, these, these, uh, these kind of neo-wig Tories.

Mostly he was a friend of the Irish in a big way. and the black and tans who were a bunch of great war veterans and most of them were ulstermen they started putting huge hurt on uh not just phanians but on like regular catholic people like it's not propaganda and the front bench um we're getting a little ahead of ourselves but just to be i want to get this put this out front the original bloody sunday which was november 11th, 1921. I'm sure one of the Irish guys or girls will correct me, if I'm wrong. That's when a bunch of British intelligence service officers were murdered by the IRA.

So the black and tans, they started resorting to retaliation against the general Catholic population. And the front bench of unionists in parliament said, fuck them. You know, that's our policy. You know, you would, you attack, you attack the agents of the crown. Like, we're, we're going to kill your people. And Moseley said, that's barbaric. Like, you can't do that. You know, he's like, I can't co-sign this.

You can't murder regular Catholic people because our guys are going down in theater. You know, and he's like, I don't care with the, with the IRS. rate those. You can't do that. You know, so obviously the Ulster man, like a quarter of them look at him and I'm like, well, what, do you like tags or something? You know, race trader, class trader. You know, like that, so this is where he was at. And in the 60s, one of the, one of the, when he was doing his kind of like round of interviews laid in life, he popped up a lot on British media in the 60s and early 70s. And one of

these typical BBC types was trying to put him on the spot a matter of race and stuff. And this is especially too, because this is one like Yenna Powell was at the peak of his clout. And Moldy said, look, you know, he's like,

you know what happened to me? He's like he's like my own former comrades wanted me dead because I I took the side of the Irish you know, in a sense. You know, like you said that

Austin needs to be partitioned and get part of the UK, but he's like, let, let the Republic go. Don't try and force him into some kind of into some kind of, you know, like treat them as men, you know, and don't try and force them into

some kind of lesser dominion status as the price of of home rule. But he said, he's like, look, he's like, I was in the same position as people on the right were who opposed the Vietnam War. He's like, I couldn't cotton what was going on here. You know, he's like, you think I did that? He's like, how did that help my life? You know, did that, did that win me friends? Did it win me influence? You know, it was like, I became a pariah like, among my own people. You know, and he's like, I, what did I get out of that? You know, and like, he had a point because

Mosley, regardless of what the court of public opinion, regardless of the tenor of it, you know, he did what he did according to principle. And apparently he was right

on basically all counts. I part ways of them on the on the issue of on the issue of Ireland in some respects, qualifiedly. But, um, you know, I, as we get some distance between, you know, as living memory of the

warriors fades into the rearview mirror and the bully pulpit is no more, you know, people actually can speak on the 20th century in objective terms. Like I, you can't say like mostly was wrong. Okay. What, the UK is a better society now. They're doing great. You know, I mean, it's, it's not going to be able to perpetuate itself beyond another generation. Like, that doesn't mean like the white race in the UK is going to go extinct or something,

but it's not in a good place, you know. But this is key, and I'm giving Mosley more time than probably some historical authors or revisionist would because he's fundamentally important, you know. and I don't think he's granted enough ink or enough content. But, you know, this was a big deal. Like the course is, his career talk as a parliamentarian. I can't remember he got into this last time or not. And correct me if I'm repeating myself and I'll jump ahead.

But, you know, Lloyd George, one of the things, one of the main catalyst for Mosey wanting to pursue a parliamentarian's career was he given his hero worship of Lloyd George. And what can be known if the... Ready for huge savings, we'll mark your calendars from November 28th to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast.

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Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited, trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Great to see you back at Spegg Savers. Okay. Could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S?

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Ask in store for details. Shell scandal, when George was the Aramance Minister, and he insinuated himself under that rule because, uh, owing to what was called the shell crisis in 1915, you know, there was a casual, like, short. of a shell for heavy guns. So the British Expeditionary Force, they basically had no capability to bring a direct fire to bear on the enemy. You know, and they got slaughtered.

And Lloyd George, he became a hero to the frontline soldiers. you know, airmen as well as as well as the ground element in the infantry. And, you know, not just because George

stood up to these kinds of establishment interests. And George had an aristocratic background, but he didn't really have any clout with big business and the industrial concerns. Okay, but

but mostly turning on George. George is almost kind of like his father figure too. You know, because like we talked about, Mosley had a very unhappy family life, despite the fact that he'd minimize that and act like he had this great upbringing like he didn't. He was very close to his mom,

but his father was, what was a real bully and a, and just like a shitty guy. And unfortunately, Mosley never had his, gambling and drinking vices, but he certainly had his he certainly had his pussy hounding vice for him being crass, and that was definitely not admirable.

And it led to some really ugly incidents in Maltese's personal life, and it alienated him from his friends and all kinds of other things. But, you know, so what was he lost by basically defecting from a kind of liberal union slash Tory coalition. I mean, they said a catastrophic effect on his personal life. You know, it can't be said to have been some calculated decision. But to take us back a bit, how Mosley got to this point where a house of common seat was a real stability.

July 1918, that's when he was rendered, declared, quote, permanently unfit. That's the equivalent of being, you know, totally disabled under, like, VA criteria. And around this time, he was hanging around a lady named Maxine Elliott. Maxine Elliott, she was kind of like some of Yaki's female patrons. She was like an older lady. She'd been a silent film actress who have some repatriate. cute and she owned her own studio and um there was only a handful of like actual movie studios in those days you know like 19 teens like let alone like some lady and some actress like owning one

like that was a big deal especially instead of that the stuff was all run by by gangsters you know this this was like the cusp of silver age Hollywood but maxid Elliott was american but she'd relocated to the UK. Her kind of common law husband, I can't remember if they were actually married or not. He was a younger guy. He was a Pommie. He was like an Englishman, but who had Australian citizenship.

He was a younger guy because Maxie and Elliot was still, she still had her feminine wiles in the middle age. And he answered the call to go fight in World War I. And like within days it being deployed to the front. like he got killed um so she was really heartbroken and she dedicated herself to these kinds of charitable relief efforts you know for like civilians impacted by the war but in like a real way not in like a lame like bono way like look at me i'm so great you know like she was little

key about it but you know she threw a substantial fortune at like relief for like displaced persons and stuff like that but she also um she she she liked um um you know, she was into soldiers and there's no evidence that Mosley and her, like, were, had like a romantic relationship. And by that point, I mean, he was just a kid. He was like 19, 20 years old. And she was, you know, she was like in her 50s or something. So that probably was not on the table.

But, you know, she, these kinds of, she had a lot of, like, right wing studs as we'd think about it, kind of like inner orbit. And she liked young guys hanging around. under her state and a lot of Churchill's cronies that kind of call on her to you know try and sort of like winner of favor because I because Churchill was always sort of money you know and and and obviously like they were nosing around for money and uh the uh freddie guest if that's not like a lymie name I don't know what is but he was he was he was the chief whip of Lloyd George's uh the Lloyd George liberals in the coalition government um and he was actually a

cousin and like a crony of Churchill. Like he was always hanging around. And because of Mosley's, because of Maxinelli, it's like affinity for Mosley. This opened a lot of doors for him in part, okay? And I guess

she and some of her male friends, they really encourage Mosley and told him like, look, like you've got to represent the war generation in parliament because like we don't have a voice. You know, like the front fighters don't have a voice in the House of Commons. And even, like, Lloyd George is a good man, and he helped us when we were under fire, literally.

But even he doesn't really understand. You know, so the guy really stepped in as kind of Mosey's patron, was Sir Harold Nicholson, who was a really crazy guy, like, literally. mostly. Mosey had met him when Sandhurst initially had expelled him, Sanders Military Academy. He was when Mosey was a cadet. He had a rivalry with some other upper classmen. This was when Mosey was still a polo player before he transitioned to boxing and then fencing. But this guy was some upperclassman polo star, mostly straight up knocked him out i think in the dining hall and obviously like much as uh

sanders cultivated a kind of controlled loudishness like chin shaking an upper classman like uh that's not how we do things in the british army but nicholson who knew moseley and niggleston was pretty obviously gay he like he had a wife who who who left him for a time for another woman like very decadent aristocrat stuff but uh niggelson uh uh I think he, I think it's clear, like, he was, like, literally attracted to Mosley. And that was not reciprocated in sexual terms, but Niggelson intervened, and he basically pulled strings and said, like, look, give, give Cadd Mosley another chance. You know, it's important to me. And, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, a second chance.

But Nicholson was an interesting guy. I mean, aside from whatever degenerate habits he had in his personal wife, he'd been born in Tehran, you know, when Tehran was the capital of Persia, like properly Persia. He was the youngest son, the Baron of Carnock, one Arthur Nicholson. So he'd spent his childhood like all over the world. You know, he'd been posted to St. Peter, or his father, like his family was in St. Petersburg, to Madrid,

Bulgaria to the Tangiers or Tangier, I was thinking of the casino. But he, you know, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he made him his acquaintance. And so when Mosley got, you know, permanently, like, discharged in the army, Niggelson got him a job with the foreign. an office. And, you know, made, make sure that he had what he needed, you know. And Niggleston had a heterodox perspective. He was very much, he was very much part of the war party, you know, once hostilities got

underway, but he had no truck with the, you know, the, you know, the, the kind of incessant war-mongering that are, you know, towards the Germans that emerged from some quarters. You know, like we talked about in some of our previous series, this wasn't just demented people like Vancetard. I mean, obviously, people like him led to charge in critical ways. But the empire was really rudderless. And as we see in America, you know, since 1989 and especially in the 21st century, you know, in the last 25 years in earnest, you know, whether you, I mean, there aren't empires in the original sense anymore. But, you know, if you're talking about an empire or superpower or you're talking about any political structure at scale, if it doesn't have a dedicated oppositional actor, towards which to kind of orient policy and can figure the literal architecture of the state.

This causes real problems. You know, so there was this kind of need to keep Germany in the figurative and literal gun sites to a lot of these kinds of government careers. But Nicholson really wasn't like that. And that's one of the reasons why, if there's something that exonerates or very, validates the claim that you need traditional aristocracy and government as like a moderating tenancy and um that's kind of what underlies a lot of what people like hans from and hop advocate like if you read between the lines um i don't i don't particularly shed a perspective

but it's it's a serious perspective and in the historical record i'd say guys like mickleson kind of represent that tendency um but And Niggelson also, he'd been close to Sir Eric Drummond, who, like, he worked as a private secretary, Niggleson did. And Drummond was the first secretary general of the League of Nations, okay? So I think a lot of Mosey's early ideas on, okay, we can take a League of Nations and, look, forget the Utopian, you know, kind of flourish around it when it's discussed in chambers as well as public wise we can transform this into a collective security

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and that's, you know, this is remotely derived of this stuff. Nicholson grossly offended General Razak Khan. Razakon deposed the last shot and ensured himself under the peacock throne. Neglson said that Razak Khan was, quote, a bullet-headed man with the voice of a sickly child. that probably sounds a lot more devastating if you put like the gloss of an estuary accent on it but this made this made this made uh this made a rizakhan really upset and it made like all the iranians really upset and so it made the foreign office upset as a consequence of that and uh niggelson kind of got was like out bad from then on but uh you know he um but by that point you know he you know he

he'd already kind of helped nudge Moseley along in the ways that he needed. But the, sorry, let me call my outline here. Yeah, Mosley, when he finally, the constituency that finally adopted him was a hero, which is no longer a constituency. in the House of Commons. I won't bore the subs with the kind of finer points of like UK gerrymandering. But it was, you know, Mosey kind of seemed like a good fit because if not in terms of true geography or class or character or vocation of the constituents,

it was very much kind of like in spirit like a middle england constituency and um you know having a guy who wasn't a traditional aristocrat but he had some of that pedigree and it was a war hero and basically had a martial bearing like it's it was like a natural fit you know um and that's uh where he found himself it's uh you know and it's significant too because obviously like a patriotic guy like moseley especially like a young guy you know he'd uh he'd intended uh when he first entertained the possibility of going into politics you know to enter as a conservative member of parliament you know and uh he had no university education because he'd been in the service you know um he was driven basically by

you know, a kind of passionate, like, English patriotism and, like, a belief in the empire. And, you know, the Church of England and the British Army. And the fact that, I mean, don't get me wrong, like, the liberal unions were an essential part of that coalition, but they were something different, you know. And this also, this is why he was in demand. And, you know, both conservatives and labor were trying to poach him to fill their vacancies, you know, for the reasons we just talked about. And the fact that he got taken in by the unionist wing of the liberals. And then upon becoming privy to what was actually going on as regards the Crown's response to,

feigning gorilla activity you know he basically defected I mean that that's kind of a pure crisis of conscience we can't look inside

the mind of any man or woman and even if you know somebody intimately there remain idiosyncrasies that render judgments like that will peg but so we can

derive or speculate on the motives of any man in public life with any semblance of accuracy. I don't think that there's any case that is more kind of clear cut than that of Mosley and his change of heart

as it were. But yeah, the interestingly too, but it tracks with the epoch. Well, he was an early Keynesian disciple.

And I believe that in part, when you look at what the BUF program was, in terms of how it broke down management of labor and capital into these publicly managed corporations, quite literally, and, you know, key industry was subsidized, while at the same time abandoning a protectionist regime of tariffs. that's 100% Keynes you know and

I'm very much I'm very much an American and I'm a dyed in the wool supply cider you know I mean Keynes is garbage and I know something about economics but you've got to put this in context there were no supply siders

in the 1920s okay the idea was industrial capitalism not only does it lead to intolerably catastrophic outcomes for the working classes, like, you know, a true tragedy of the commons

at global scale, but pre-information age and even pre-digital age when you literally had accountants dealing with corporations that in some cases were global in scale and they were keeping the books with an abacus. okay

you understand how people would think like well the only way to eliminate uncertainties leading to catastrophe and the only way to manage critical shortfalls in you know the ability of a capitalistic structure

to provide for human needs is if we basically like plan you know from inception you know like what our production scheme it is as much as possible without killing the golden goose. Like, that's where a lot of this came from. Okay.

And then obviously, after 1929, it was, it was just like an absolute, you know, that's just, this is the way things are. There was no countervailing tenancy. That's why people, I mean, some of these people are just dishonest. I'm talking about, like, academic types. Or, like, oh, you know, Hitler was a socialist who didn't really believe in capitalism. Or, oh, you know, Mosley was just another laborite, you know, but, you know, he was, you know, he was also a racist.

That's not, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, just in brass tax terms, you know,

um, if people want a more complete treatment of that, read Murray Rothbard's history of the Great Depression, or read what, um, read what James Burnham wrote about macroeconomics,

and he wrote more than one might think. It was mostly in the form of, uh, submissions of periodicals and essays. But, you know, the, there was no, really until the 70s, this is just the way people thought, you know, at least in the quarters that mattered. I cite Schumpeter all the time because Schumpeter really was, Schuberters 2-Vellium, Magnum-Ope's business cycles. It's an incredibly difficult read. but I consider it to be the most important

statement on economics to the 20th century and I'll die in that hill but beyond that it's also it's a direct rebuttal to Keyes okay but that's viewed as very heterodox these days unfortunately

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Search Trump, Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunbiog, Kosh Farage. By the time, when Mosley entered politics, the war was still raging. In 1918, you know, the degree to which an entire generation of British youth got blown to hell in France and Belgium,

they can't really be overstated. Like, one of the things, this is on my mind, and forgive me if this is too tangential, or if people think it's a corny thing to invoke, um, a symbolic precedent, but, I mean,

I've known a lot of Pink Floyd lately. I, I really like their last record, the division bill, and obviously that's the Gilmore era, but, uh, I was rewatching the wall while I was, like, working on some long-form stuff.

You know, there's two, you know, this segment where Hank, who's obviously Roger Waters, he's like this little kid and he's at the park and like nobody's a father. It's much like women and old men and little kids. And obviously Waters' dad died in the war. You know, that's the way it was. It's like there was just like this missing generation. You know, the UK reports. recovered somewhat.

Germany bounced back demographically. France never recovered, and that's one of the things that took them down as a great power. But in any event, as 1917 became in 1918, their base was no more a manpower. This was a bunch of raw teenage conscripts

who were, like, taking the place in these line companies that had suffered catastrophic, like, 150% to tritian. You know, so there was, there was no enthusiasm

to continue this conflict. You know, it was like, it was a bunch of, it was a much of high school old age boys, like being, like, ripped off the farm or, like,

ripped out of the factory. And they're like, mom and dad's house and, like, sent to the slaughter. And nobody was coming home. You know, um,

so the end of the war, when the armist has finally arrived, there was just like tremendous, kind of like outpouring of emotion, no less from, you know, Mosley himself who who'd been there. You know,

um, and when the armistice was signed, it's interesting, Mosley's oldest son, Nicholas Mosley, he said that he never saw his dad. He said his dad was like impassioned and like emotional in the sense that he'd get very

fervent and angry. But he said he never saw, he never saw, get emotional in terms of, you know, losing control of his of his feelings other than when he discussed the war. And Nicholas Moseley said, he said anytime World War I came up,

his father, like, he'd speak, like, with a genuine sense of horror, you know, and, uh, Nicholas said a few times, he said, like, tears well up in his eyes just when people would casually bring up the war. And, like, Mosey would, like, recusey would, like, recuse, himself like this wasn't an act you know um and so like the enormity of this experience

it kind of causing him to like re-examine things you know and he he made the statement later in life after the BUF days after World War II but before uh he um began uh pushing a the revitalized uh europe nation concept like he said that uh you know the reason why like providence or fate i think is what he assigned um as the causal agent had like brought into politics was you know because he had he had he had to represent like all the men who paid the ultimate price you know and he had he had to stand up for Britain so that it could survive

but he had to see to it that this never ever happened again you know and it probably sounds messianic to people who don't really understand what forward of experiences like that are like and I mean yeah there's got to be like a strong component of eocentrism

if you're going to nominate yourself for that kind of ambition but you know it's it's not a matter of coveting um clout or prestige you know and the the uh the life of mosley didn't it didn't go the way of like the life of church or the life of tony blair like at every key juncture mostly made a decision that put him at odds with powerful people and with interest that had become entrenched and

the new establishment. It can't be said that any man would pursue this course in order to somehow enrich himself or to guarantee his own posterity by situating himself on the side that would be favorably documented by court history but the

the key kind of event to like post armistice was well I mean the first kind of the fall of asketh as as prime minister

previously which have facilitated Lloyd George's assentancy that's when it's split the liberal party into the unionist faction and you know I guess it would be the moderace but

it was the end of the war and the issue of Ireland that really brought down the coalition and Mosley and again him basically siding not with the Thanean but with

Ireland the Irish as a people. That wasn't like the sole proximate cause, obviously, but it was an essential cause. You know, and so there's that, too. And it, I think that that speaks for itself. But the, I think find my place here. Sorry.

Well, this is another big thing, too, that put him somewhat at odds with kind of everybody. Not just on the front bench of the coalition, but also the moderate labor rights were willing to reach across the aisle. he deposed the public education structure as it existed for the same reasons that some of these utopian progressives had and that being that he basically viewed it as taxing the commons that kind of put forth an education that was determined by the Church of England, which meant that like non-conformist, you know, dissenters would have really like no option. And they'd be kind of like mandated into, you know, an educational paradigm at odds with their culture and devised by, you know, their class betters. But he also said that, you know, the model has to be that the educational model has to be that of, the Prussian system or, you know, the American system.

You know, and again, he was looking, he was looking basically towards, you know, although obviously people didn't think in terms of this vocabulary, literally or conceptually, he was looking forward and saying, like, we're going to have to become a superpower and change the way that we do things from the ground up, you know, from our, the way we approach, you know, labor and management relations, you know, to this idea that, you know, we can, we can tailor our production schema, you know, based on, you know, guarding markets for all time against competitor imports. And, you know, well, if the, you know, if the funds start getting too greedy in terms of the markets, they take out in Africa, we can just go to war with them again. Like that, you know, his idea was

like, oh, that had to stop. And, you know, if you, the only way that the empire can manage those demands is, you know, you need a population that is basically competent in techniques, you know, and that has to be the focus of, you know, the, of the educational system. And this was quite revolutionary at the time, you know. And again, in those days, too, state-centric models were like a foregone conclusion, in part by necessity. And public education wasn't this thing that's decades obsolete like today. Like, it actually had a purpose. I mean, you've got to, this was literally a century ago. You know, I can't emphasize that enough. And nothing bothers me more than when people should know better try and project contemporary bias.

is a on new cast um it uh and he said too like he drew upon um these um the kind of a lot of these like a lot of these utopian progressives among them field marshal edmund ironside um who commanded uh not just troops uh on the western front but um he'd uh served in northern Russia, um, with the, the white army and allied elements. Like he,

uh, he was very much an imperialist and very much a British patriot, but also very much a socialist. And mostly, make the point again and again, like, look, like, being an imperialist and being like a socialist and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, like the, the, the, the, the indigenous elements.

You know, he's like, you know, viewing an integral socialism. It's essential to our posterity. Those things aren't somehow mutually exclusive, like northing in conflict. You know, and that is a point he came back to again and again as the BUF got established. is that the paradigm of class conflict, it runs far deeper in the UK than on the continent, and he acknowledged that, but, you know, that it was very much exploited

for cynical reasons by, you know, by the... And there's perverse incentives to sustain those kinds of tensions to force political outcomes, arms and to build coalitions and other things, you know, it's, which is absolutely true, you know,

um, but I, I wanted to deep dive into a lot of this stuff today because that's, that's really the context of the BUF and, um, it, uh, you know,

and like I said, it, um, much as Mosley was, uh, like a qualified racialist. Like he, you know,

he, um, he, view for a man of his station and cast it's complicated the uh well as he cited joseph chamberlain a lot of chamberlain was um a um was he was related to to um neville chamberlain and he was a liberal unionist who was pretty extreme in his opposition to home rule, but he also, he was among the founders of what was called the Birmingham Education League. Birmingham was his home constituency. And he was an advocate of secular patriotic and mass education on the Prussian model.

and a lot of Chamberlain's ideas if you dig into like what he said on the floor of the commons and things a lot of that is like mostly like lifted it almost word for word I don't say that punitively I mean there's but that's the source of a lot of it there was

you know that I mean Mosey obviously wasn't any kind of arch unionist quite the contrary but you know this idea that Mosey was appropriating some continental tenancy that had no precedent in the UK, you know, by trying to create this kind of pastiche of socialist imperatives and, you know, kind of like imperialist fervor like that. There's nothing in Congress about that in terms of the

political culture, which was then like still very much. ex-stot. The, and Moseley, too, like, he thought he was taken in by this idea that, you know, oh, well, okay, you know,

these reforms, especially the Post 1848 reforms, which Mosley's family didn't look too highly upon. The silver lining to Moseley was that, well, you know, this creates new potentialities. And he thought that, like, you know, they're,

there can be some kind of, like, there can be some kind of, not like national palingenesis, but kind of like revival of the political culture, you know, through parliamentary means. And he very quickly became like disabused those ideas. You know, like he, um, he gave a long speech, uh, in support of the, uh, it was his maiden speech in support of what was called the aerial navigation bill. Um, it was a, it was, you know, it, it was, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, pose like kind of token funding and stuff for like, you know, civil aviation. And Mosey said like, no, he's like, look, the key to any other cutting-edge technology is

us mastering, you know, like a national culture of a civil and military aviation. You know, and having been a fighter pilot, mostly had obviously a lot of credibility to speak on this. You know, and he said the fact that a lot of these parliamentarians, they're the dismissive of them as just, you know, some kind of young professional soldier who wanted to build himself up. I appealed a, you know, a romantic subject matter. Or they just had no understanding what he was talking about. You know, you realize, you know, like, my God, we're in real trouble here. You know, especially looking. to America and, you know, even Germany, which was in a catastrophic state at the time,

you know, they, people, uh, in both respective states, you know, they had a far greater understanding of kind of the, the velocity and the kind of trajectory of technology as it was, you know, um, as it was. you know, as it was at that moment, you know, the British were really lagging, you know, which is one of the things that did them in, you know, I believe. It wasn't inevitable, but it was definitely a necessary cause, one of the many. this and his

second speech he gave out aviation he called for basically the elimination of the kind of military bureaucracy as it existed, like the military and diplomatic bureaucracy, which was more integrated

in the UK than in America except for maybe peak Cold War you know, there was a, he said, like, why is aviation civil and military? You know, why is it under personal control with the Secretary of State for war and air? You know, why, why is there a parliamentary committee devoted to it, you know, that has no actual expertise over the matter? You know, he said there should be one single air chief, almost like a joint chiefs, or a, or like the staff system that existed in

in Prussia and then the the Kaiser Reich you know but obviously um not uh devised for the exclusive purpose of military

command and um Churchill took notice of this and um started to kind of like mimic what Mosy was the kind of facts and

concepts that he was Rang about aviation. And then, you know, Churchill and his cadres and his

cronies, like later claims that were totally infagulated. You know, the supposed German build up

an air power. And, you know, the ability of a non-existent German bombers to strike at the heart of the UK, such that,

you know, he was in those claims presenting actual aviation concepts. Some of this stuff is directly lifted from like Mosey's early aviation speeches, which is really interesting, but unsurprising. Very much in character,

rechurchase. But there's around this time, too, like 1921, 22, you know, an immediate aftermath of him completely

falling out with the liberal union front bench. He started speaking to the then current epoch as the, you know, the quality of the gods. You know, he's like, we're living in a period where, you know, where, like, the passing of the great race, you know, is upon us and, like, we're that great race, and we're watching ourselves essentially march

into oblivion, periodically and literally. And this, his model of aviation management and development at national scale it attracted a lot of guys to his corporatist model

which at that point he becomes some of a gadfly in the commons but he was he was viewed as a guy who had very serious ideas at least in terms of, you know, things that were within his wheelhouse. And he attracted a lot of prestige personalities to his ideas, specifically with, you know, what he was proposing about aviation and adjacent technologies.

which is really interesting and that David Irving makes that point a lot not specifically about Mosley but his book on the Rise and Flood the Luftwaffe which is essentially like the all but name

it's like the memoirs of Earhart Milch you know Earhart Milch was incredibly important to the way the Third Reich developed and in it is in to being like a great

a great general of the air arm and a war hero. He was also, he was the first like CEO of a commercial airline. You know, and this you know, and Lindberg

is a counterpart of this type in America. You know, this was essential. If the UK had been less dysfunctional, like even even if Mosey's ideas hadn't been a resident in the way that he intended

and, you know, even if the fascist tendency that he became the standard bearer of, like, never truly got off the ground, if the U.K. hadn't totally committed suicide, like Moseley would have been assimilated into the ruling

apparatus and his talents would have been directed in constructive ways. This kind of waste of human capital is something that is so clear and so clearly catastrophic and not just in the UK era but it's kind of the seminal example

in my opinion and that's apparent today like in America but there's less of an obvious pool of talent to draw upon who are willing to dedicate their time and waivers to the business and government.

And I guess back of that, obviously, that wasn't the case. You know, there was a remarkably deep pool of incredibly talented men. I think I'm going to wrap up for now. Oh, yeah, right about an hour anyway. But yeah, well, I promise I'll get into more exciting and sexy stuff with the actual thought of the BWF. And I'll conclude with Part 4. We might need to go for like an hour, 15 or an hour and a half, though.

But if that's okay with you, it's fine with me. Sure. One question before we go. You mentioned the Spenglarian term, their techniques. Yeah. Can you just tell everybody what technique, how you describe techniques? It's not like words in German that doesn't truly translate because of nuance. It refers to, like, actual technology, like the physical stuff of technology and, like, machinery.

but it also refers to like a conceptual paradigm like technological thinking so like when Spangler says techniques or when any kind of German political philosopher

or sociologist like says techniques like he means this entire kind of paradigm like the actual stuff of technology the modality of thinking that incorporates it into

you know, political life, um, that the, the thought process that historically contextualizes it, you know, the moral implications that derive from it, the kind of sociological disturbances and benefits that, that stem from it.

It's kind of like, it's like a zeitgeist word as well as like a word that describes, like a physical thing. Like that, that's what it means. Cool. All right. Two plugs. Real quick. Yeah. I'm having a report.

I have a lot of exciting things going on. If you visit the substack, that's where the bulk of my work product is in terms of the podcast and long form writing. It's real Thomas 777.7.7.com. If you'll include my social media in the description, that'd be great. my social media alt is at capital R-E-A-L underscore number seven H-M-A-S-777- and I think yeah that's all I got all right until part four thank you so much Thomas yeah you're welcome take care