The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1190: The Life and Thought of Oswald Mosley w/ Thomas777 - Part 5

Episode Date: March 23, 2025

61 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas and Pete continue a series exploring the life and work of British Union of Fascists founder, Oswald Mosley.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Lidl, more to value. And now, this, chock, give Rehawes, next to the hamster. It's leargoal to doer gillor Gwija and notherina in Aundun, and leant to Gaela to give a time of Gawainan. In Ergird, we're dig tour taww in one-wunah with fun of unwa-of-ehanes. It's a uschraught, a young-lectricist, on us could with all the time, Gnallel, and Pobble

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How are you doing, Thomas? I'm doing well. So I mean, there's two things that I think are very interesting about the period of about 1931 and 1933. You know, not just because that was the National Socialist Descendancy and that changed things globally, quite literally. But especially it changed the perception of fascism. But not in ways that people might think in that early on. And also, I made mention before that Moseley considered himself an accolite of Keynes. And Keynes actually thought highly of Moseley.

And he endorsed his economic model. You know, and like later, like the British establishment had a strange relationship with Keynes on account of this. You know, they'd held him out as kind of like the savior of the global economy, the nascent global economy. So it was not

anybody's interest to slander him or try and sideline him on grounds that he was some sort of unpatriotic fascist sympathizer, but they stopped trusting him after that. And, you know, I'll get into this too, but like the British Home Office,

When it began clear, Molesi had actual support. They issued the statement that was deliberately leaked about how, oh, the British Union of fascists, it's populated by criminals and men who find themselves in trouble with the law and, you know, and commoners and servants, you know, and men who don't have the skills to make it in the industrial economy. That was completely at odds in reality. You had a bunch of guys, the kinds of guys who ended up settling Rhodesia, you had a bunch of guys, the kinds of guys who ended up settling Rhodesia. you had a bunch of like really game NCOs for war heroes.

You had a bunch of young guys who kind of had a resume like Orwell did. They'd been to Burma. They'd been to India. They'd been to Africa. Like these guys were adventure hungry like very like you know, kind of martial oriented like very tough people.

And they were kind of the backbone of the late British Empire. They were the kinds of guys who joined like the black and tans. Like I'm not saying that's like a good thing to do, but like these are very aggressive people who believed in, you know, in Britain. Like there's the kinds of guys who, you know,

I joined the, the answer to call in Ulster, you know, the 36th Ulster Division and got creamed at the Somme. These are the guys who signed up to be constabulary police in Burma. Like that's one of the reasons why they were dangerous to the establishment.

See, this is like the myth about fascism. It's like, in the one hand, it's like, oh, fascists are a bunch of no-account losers who live with their mom and can't stay out of jail. But then on the other hand, it's supposedly the most dangerous people anywhere. It's like, which is it? You know, so that this

mythology very much, you know, that was kind of like the founding narrative because early on, Chamberlain's ascendancy after McDonald, and when Churchill was kind of on the outs of everybody, you know, the British street didn't particularly like Hitler,

but they viewed him like they did Mussolini, like they viewed him as an incredibly important figure and a constantly serious guy. You know, um, this, like, like,

you know, and, um, if for no other reason, um, you know, people forget that the problem, that the prospect of a communist revolution

in the UK and specifically in England, that was a very real possibility. That wasn't that that wasn't like nonsense that wasn't like Eisenhower era nonsense where these like Birchard types at Bandy that like the communists were going to take over Iowa. You guys, the reason

why Mark said that in his mind you know, a Marxist's Lenin's Revolution was going to happen in the UK. And it'd be staved off for a time in Germany because Germany had already moved towards state socialism. But, you know, this is a very real danger. And even a lot of, even a lot of polite society types who thought that the BUF were bully boys and thought that Mosey was kind of a dangerous, sinister person, they were like, I'm glad that these guys are stomping communists.

You know, I'm glad that if push came to shove, you know, we'd have this like vanguard of men to deal with it. You know, and I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, but, you know, one of the things that happened, the National Socialist Descendancy, in March 93, the nation. National Socialists, they pulled 43.9% on the Reichstag. February 28th of 1933 was the Reichstag fire decree, which for all practical purposes banned the Communist Party. And Ernst Tolman got arrested. Like how the different, like how the constituent elements of the former a German Empire, dealt with the Reichstag fire decree varied, because there was still something of a devolved federalism at play.

That was all done by about 1935, 36, but even in gauze and territories that were friendly to the national socialist, or at least not unfriendly, Hitler and Hindenberg weren't issuing Dick Totts and this is how you must handle. This is how you must implement the Reichstag degree. So the communists still had some breathing rooms some places, but their leadership had been arrested. The Stron up to Lung was

stomping the shit out of them. You know, they had the entire state apparatus turning on them. And the most important thing is the KPD could no longer send delegates to the Reichstag. So for all practical purposes, in political terms, the National Soldiers had a super majority in like parliamentary terms

although not in like absolute population terms. Where the communists responded to that was the communists declared like a united front and they're like from now on like we're not going to antagonize labor parties. We're not going to antagonize democratic socialists.

We've like we've got to present a united front to fight the fascists. You know and the Senate real implications on the British Street. Because up until then one of the things that early on

before the BUF came to the BUF when it was under the banner of the new party the independent labor rights, mostly it managed to poach a lot of those guys including his original head of security.

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this is over the hamshare it's a lot GUE and not Gereena in Aondoon and Lain de Gala to Giongaii Gawattah Deere.

In Ergird, we're talking in one-whunah with funif in Woonagh. There's ouschrot a young lecturers on as could

with all the Taya and Pobble Tareff at WAN TASTI. A era of courthewagin, full them the small in Airgrid Pongahee. Which later became, like, the direct-action element, like the fascist action force, which was basically, like, the BUFs, like,

Sturnepped along. I'll get into it a minute. But the reason why the independent labor rights gravitated the fascists, like, it wasn't just because a lot of these guys were basically patriotic, even though they were, you know, like, left-wing. But the communists were attacking their meetings and, and, uh,

and stomping them out. Because basically it was like you're not, no, nobody's going to ride under a red banner unless they're communists. You know, and they stopped doing that because basically wanted to put bodies in the street and smash the fascists. And this really alarmed people as it should have because revolutionary conditions were brewing. And in Mosley's view, Mosley, Mosley had a pretty nuanced view of this. you know, he was not by any means assembled on political matters. Nobody would have said he was dumb in absolute terms, but he was actually very sophisticated in practice and theory of politics.

And his view was, I don't think the communist can win here, but he's like politics have become starkly binary. You know, and there is no position anymore other than that of a fascist or that of, of the Bolsheviks. You know, there's not, there's not like a discursive space outside of that. You know, and how Churchill and the focus hijacked policy

that owed to the fact that things had, things had abated in a large part, especially after the communists lost in Spain and they lost in Germany. You know, people got to understand that the communists were winning at this point. You know, this was still three years before the Spanish War even kicked off. You know, they definitely had momentum on their side.

And that's, I mean, I think Mosey was a fascist anyway. And if you read what he wrote, especially when he was outlining the corporatist model. And that was its first real long-form political testament was the coming. corporate state. And that attracted, again, not only the praise of Keynes, but guys like George Bernard Shaw. And Shaw was still addressing Fabian society

meetings, but he was talking like a fascist, you know, and even in the 20th century, I mean, even in the inner warriors, a lot of people still who weren't

particularly sympathetic to communism, or particularly left-winging their colleagues. That's just where the animating energy was in political life since they gravitated to. I mean, obviously, after 9045, that's where anybody with any radical inclination was funneled to. Because the Zyg guys wouldn't permit anything else, because anything else would have been a fool's errand.

but the fascist perspective in the UK, unlike the continent, it was a minority perspective. You know, not as much of one as the home office wanted to allege, but it wasn't a minority perspective. And only certain kinds of men found a home there. And so that's important to understand. I think some people who don't understand the history

they've got a tendency to consider Mosley in some because they watch bullshit like peeky blinders and they have this character in their mind of Mosley as being as being like George Lincoln Rockwell but with a lamey accent or something that's completely off base. You know, like I said, that's one of the reasons why despite what I view of as some of his blind spots

in the post-war years, and Mosley's a hero of mine. He was a great man. And, you know, in part, I consider him those terms because he was a sophisticated political theorist. And as was Mussolini in his own right. But Mussolini was kind of like the right-wing linen. You know, Malsdy wasn't just a tactually sophisticated guy and, like, a tough individual. He had very sophisticated view of politics.

and a lot of that owed, I believe, to, you know, his familial lineage and things. But it was October 1931. That's when Mosley formally broke with conventional politics. And in part, like I just mentioned, that was because of what he observed as the experience of the Independent Labor Party. And for clarity, the Independent Labor Party broke with the mainstream labor rights. Because they viewed them as basically like a stopgap. They viewed people like McDonald is kind of like trying to force a stopgap solution whereby, you know, a parliamentary solution. You know, where some concessions would be granted to the laboring classes, but essentially the system would remain as it is.

Or they viewed it as a, you know, a mechanism of active sabotage of revolutionary ambitions. and as the independent labor party developed, you know, a direct action capability and a presence on the street, like the communists began, first they began disrupting them. And then when they didn't quit what they were doing, the communists started violently assaulting them. Like it got so violent that the ILP, they couldn't carry on the business of electioneering. you know and Molesi was looking at this and Mosey's like okay if this is the way the left is treating

one of their own sectarian tendencies you know we're we're tripping over our own feet proverbially speaking in thinking that you know some kind of some kind of patriotic alternative

to the Tories or the you know or the national unity party as it was called is viable you know um and one of the John Beckett

who himself had been one of the main organizers of the ILP before they disbanded for all practical purposes he'd set up his own defense force

you know like Stern up to Longa type element because he'd been a boxer you know and he ultimately clicked up with Mosley um when Mosey set up the new party.

And this kind of became the background of the British, this kind of became the backbone of the British Union of Fascists, you know, like guys like this. You know, and this is also when the seed was planted in his mind of cultivating a direct action element, like a party militia, which preceded the British Union of, fascists.

You know, the, like, the new party youth movement, um, was, uh, was, as mostly called them the shock troops, as well as the security echelon of the new party. And, um, this became a lot more formalized, obviously, as the BUF became the British Union of fascists. And they were the first guys to wear the, uh, where the um you know

the uh the the flash in the circle you know to represent action within unity but originally it was it was the uh it was the direct action element um the you know the youth core

that that wore those and then because initially the pretty seen a fascist their symbol was a fascist just like the Italians so it would surely it developed its own aesthetic and incidentally you know, Mosley, he'd been a champion fencer, and he kept it up, like, even into his political career. The British Union of Fascist's black uniform. It looks like a futurist kind of thing, and it is.

But the tunic is a fencing tunic, like painted or dyed black, you know, in part because it's, it's like a primitive form of body armor. but also it was supposed to represent like kind of like the dialectical collision and resolution of you know like the past and like things like swordsmanship with like the future you know which I think is really cool

but um and it was also distinctive from both the national socialist and um and uh the national fascist party in Italy but it was in October of 31 that's like the seminal date that, you know, like Mosley abandoned normal

parliamentarism. But the, uh, Mosey also yelled something in common with Kudriano. He didn't know Kudriano. I think he probably knew Ion Mota, and I'll get into why I think that as we proceed. Catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range.

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Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings? Well, mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-haves.

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with funif in one ofunah. It's a good thing to do either aangach lecturer on as to refer to all the town, Gnough and Pubble, tariff, of the endashy. He's era of Kuchewaghan, full of Nis Moe. He was a right-hand man of Cadrean, who, he fell fighting the communists in Spain,

and he was very much martyred. Vassil Marien, who was his comrade, another Iron Guard guy, they were both KIA. And this was like a... this was like a rallying point for fascists when they were killed. and Mota had an internationalist view of fascism, which I find, which is important to our discussion. But it's only just interesting on its own terms. But interestingly, too, the new party youth militia, these guys at first were

surreptitiously attending communist meetings to kind of see what their ops were doing. But they ended up actually poaching a fair number of communist members to their ranks, which is interesting. And these guys moved in a lot of similar social circles. And Mosley did that very deliberately. Like the reason I made, I drew the analogy to Quadriano and the early Iron Guard, mostly believe very much, he said,

we got to concentrate on like a cell structure. And you've got to do stuff like insinuated. our peoples into athletic clubs and like social clubs, but where people are serious. You know, it's like we need to post the youngsters, you know, for, for the youth militia, you know, from like boxing and fencing clubs. You know, we need to post older guys, you know, from like the Fabian society and some of these guys who, you know,

are, you know, bright intellectual lights in the communist movement. but who obviously don't really belong and they're wrong to their patriotic bona fides, which might seem like a forewarn conclusion, but the U.K. is not America, and like it's not the same thing. You know, that was actually pretty radical thinking

and not particularly easy to accomplish, but one of the things about Mosley being a lesser aristocrat and his, like, unique background and his family's heritage literally,

of crushing radical elements and his ability to kind of like move in different circles as well as the fact he was a genuine man of action this thing allowed him to kind of jump

the the class and cast barriers which to this day remained quite rigid in the UK for like a developed country It's anachronistic, you know. But, and what's most, and what I think, I mean, I think it's, I think it's someone indisputable.

You know, Mosley, despite Diana Mosley's personal friendship with Adolf Hitler, which is a very real thing. That's not home office propaganda, and it's not creative license by court historians. it was very real. But aside from all of that, and superficial commonalities between the National Socialist

and the B.U.F. Well, he was first and foremost a fascist. You know, and his view of fascism was distinct. It wasn't merely derivative, but I'll get into such that the Italians developed a fascist and, called

a fascist international, which had some success, and I'll get into that because it's important. One of the reasons they liked Mosley, it wasn't just because he liaise with them personally, and that made Mussolini feel important, and they obviously had a genuine rapport, but also Mosley didn't abide national socialist race doctrine. You know, he just didn't. Like, that's not to say it was something egalitarian. and he was very anti-Jewish, though not in, like, racialist terms. He was very pro-white, vis-a-vis the white dominions of the UK,

and what do you imagine the future of them being? But, you know, he didn't have any time for this kind of stuff that guys like Arnold Least did, you know, who spent his days kind of pouring over stuff that Julius Stryker published or, you know, this kind of Darwinian racialist stuff is a model for a political doctrine,

you know, and the Italians approved of that. I don't think a lot of the national socialist leadership cast didn't go for that either, but a lot did. And Germany, like the United States, that's something people just accepted.

They thought that that's, they thought that that was the essence. of racial persona, if you will. My friend Giles was nice not to publish an article I wrote on that. I guess more of an essay, really.

But, you know, the 1930s also, I mean, this is when Keynes was openly, this one King is openly bandying Mosley as a progressive thinker and an important man.

You know, Keens had sympathized with the national government when he viewed it as viable, and that wasn't unusual. I actually have some respect for Ramsey McDonald, like we talked about last time, and I think the time before, I think McDonald was in an impossible situation, and as a head of government and a parliamentary system,

okay, I mean, you take the fall for the failure of that government, your coalition, okay? But, you know, Keynes, I think Keynes was a, is essentially worthless as an economist in terms of, you know, true economic theory, but I understand the limitations of the time. And frankly, that's why everybody became a Keynesian, this idea that, you know, it's a kind of embrace of anarchism to just look the nuances of, of a rapidly integrating global economy, just, you know, be like left to,

left of fate or chance. You know, the inability to code data correctly and to identify what variables must be coded. And most importantly, the inability to register information in real time, which we didn't acquire until the 2000s, really. You know, I made a point again and again that something, you know, something like the crash of 87, like wouldn't happen or couldn't happen again. like structurally is precluded. But, you know, it's the equivalent of, it's like talking about, it'd be like throwing shade on Pythagoras.

This is probably an imperfect analogy because I'm not a math guy at all. It'd be like throwing shade on Pythagoras because to him, like theoretical math was restricted by, you know, like available instruments, like an abacus, okay? technology is just positive in these things, especially when you're talking about systems where, you know, variables and the ability to corral, identify them, corral them, and calculate them is entirely contingent upon high tech, you know, and this is exacerbated in economics because time is of the essence in a way it's not an other endeavor. except for maybe warfare. I'm sure Marxists would have something to say about that.

That's obtuse, but I think the subs understand what I mean. You know, and the... Keynes also accepted... He basically accepted Mosey's paradigm of politics moving forward, that it was going to become very binary. And one of the few things Schumpeter is always pointing out, and Keynes had agreed on, was that a communist revolution,

is probably inevitable. You know, Schumpeter thought this could be staved off by concessions of the body politic and by, you know, a prosperity, having a corrective functions set in in the globalizing economy that would have an effect of kind of neutralizing the most radical elements. but Keynes was looking at this as basically a neutral arbiter and he's like, okay, you know, if you want to preclude a Soviet-style nightmare here, there's got to be some kind of planned economy. And the corporate state was basically kind of like a demand cider's dream. and I would argue that the strange as it might seem as a model of administrative efficiency, I think that the British system of the 1920s and 30s, like the interwar system,

I think it was uniquely situated to administer something like the corporate model. It would not have led to long-term prosperity. have been terrible problems. But in terms of mitigating the initial crisis and facilitating short-term development in a punctuated way, which in turn would have generated real capital, I think it probably would have worked very well. Okay. I don't want somebody to cut that out of context and then say I'm some kind of fuckhead

Keynesian because I'm not at all. Okay. So please don't do that. I mean, it's funny sometimes when people do that, but that wouldn't be funny. Yeah, I mean, it would be what I mean. In any event, January 932 is when... That's when Mowlesy made a second visit to Rome. Ready for huge savings?

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That's when Maudituary became a fetus. Okay. And Mussolini very much kind of cultivated this. I mean, I don't think, I don't think Moseley was some kind of simpleton. It was taken in by the kind of hero cult of a little duch. I mean, I'm sure he was somewhat. I mean, anybody would be. Like, Mussolini was an impressive man. And he was a man's man and just a remarkable guy. But I, you know, Moseley was young, but he'd, you know, he was a combat veteran. He was an aristocrat. He was an aristocrat. He was a natural leader. Like he wasn't somebody who was snowed or by this kind of thing. You know, why did Mussolini cultivate Moseley so much? I mean, I think especially when initially there was mutual respect, but there was a coldness that Mussolini exhibited towards Hitler in contrast. Okay, my view on that is a few things.

You know, the Italians, despite what they might see. say then or now, they want the approval of the British, you know, I mean, the British kind of kind of, the British do kind of covet the aspects of their own kind of racial and national character that are lacking and that are expressed with great vitality in continental people, and specifically, you know, people as impassioned as the Italians. You know, there was a huge prestige in those days to the British Empire. And it's like some vestige of that endorsed today, albeit a shadow of its former self. But so there is that.

But also, you know, contra the national socialists and Hitler specifically, this caused some tension with Hitler and the SS. That's way too much of a tangent. But, you know, other than the independent state of Croatia, which was a totally unique case. and the relationship of the Croats is the people, the Germans is unique. The only thing comparable really is like the Serbs are to the Russians. But the Hitler government went out of their way to disabuse anybody of, you know, including their staunch allies of any sense that, oh, we're going to try and model our government on the national socialist state.

the fascists are trying to cultivate something very different. You know, people forget this. It's kind of been lost to history, kind of like the Four Powers Pact, in part because I think it conflicts with the sort of simple-minded narrative of what fascism represented. Mussolini had, I can't read or pronounce Italian. I'm going to try. Well, Salini convened this office within the party and within the government. It translated to the Action Committee for the Universality of Rome.

That's kind of a bastardized translation. Like, with it basically, like, the colloquially, it translates to, you know, like, office for, like, the promotion of the Roman cults. or, you know, like, or the Roman political education. It was basically like, it was basically common form became later, okay, for the Soviet Union. And its purpose was to identify fascist tendencies and friendly states, as well as movements behind enemy lines. that could be cultivated and brought into you know some kind of internationalist political tenancy so it's culminated in the 1934 Montreux Fascist Conference in Switzerland

also known not incorrectly and not just colloquially as the fascist international, the first Fascist International Congress It was held in December 1934, in the 16th and 17th. And there was representatives of what had been identified by the Action Committee for the Universally of Rome as bona fide fascist movements

in something like over 30 countries, but such that it was the delegates came from 13. different states, including Ion Mota from Romania. You know, the Iron Guard. Quisling was there. The Greek National Socialists sent a delegation.

One of the phalanjist deputies came, but the phalangist command element refused to endorse it because they claimed the phalanjerk not fascist.

The Irish blue shirt sent the delegation. The movement Franciste, which was not affiliated with Charles and Maras' movement. They identified explicitly as fascists.

And what became of them, I think a lot of them ended up being folded into various militias because they kind of disappear from the historical record by 1937-38. So that's part of the problem is I can't even read like passable French. I mean, I can read passable German.

But there was a Baltic contingent, Salazar, some representatives of the Salazar's movement. you get the idea you know there was some of the Austrian National Catholic types Belgium had sent a contingent so did the Danes, the Netherlands

you get the idea and there was an indigenous Swiss element obviously notably absent was any delegation in the Third Reich there weren't any of the Austrian National Socialist present but at that time there was a delicate minuet going on between them and Mussolini,

especially because they were waging an insurgency campaign against Dolphus, and they actually ended up murdering him, I mean, which is, which, to say the least, caused some real consternation between Alducci and the fur. But that, uh, and Mussolini, um,

there weren't, there was obviously like Italians, elements of the Italian government, fascist government, were facilitating or organizing it, but there weren't any, like, there weren't any, like, ideological commissars there from, like, the fascist party.

Because mostly he wanted to, he didn't want, he said he wanted to get, like, an accurate rendering. Without, you know, people trying to jockey for, like, favoritism, money, geostrategic benefit, you know, from, from the party. basically put these men in a room and see what they do and see what the priorities are and see if we can properly call them constituent representatives of constituent elements of an international tenancy.

Mosley did not attend and he did that for very specific reasons because by this point, as I just mentioned, I mean, this was late 1934. Not only was Hitler, Reichs consler, but the Reichstag fire decree had been passed. There was a state of emergency. The National Socialists were also

busy passing laws, like, disenfranchising Jews politically. So, all over the British press, Mosley's opts are saying, Mosley is a Nazi, Mosley is an agent of the kingdom of Italy. You know, Molesley is this anti-Semite who has been insinuated into our mist

because owing to failing political fortunes, he looked abroad and he's basically like a paid asset, you know, and this man, this man should be behind bars, you know, and if we can't put him behind bars, you know, we, we, we, we, we need to shame him and, and, you know, expose him as this, as this genocidal biological racialist or whatever. But first and for a first and far as concern was to deprive the enemy in the domestic press. And this element that became the focus later deprive them of the ammunition to claim that Mosey was some kind of foreign agent or foreign assets. you know, and that was that was wise.

But, you know, I emphasize that because, I mean, for a few reasons, not just because it's essential to understanding kind of the various iterations of the Revolutionary Right in the inner war years. But, you know, the fascists, like the capital F fascists, whether you're talking about,

um, whether you're talking about, um, mostly, whether you're talking about Mussolini, whether you're talking about Ion Mota and, uh,

some of these Iron Guard partisans, these guys were basically adjusting for cultural, um, discrete cultural tendencies and animating elements. These guys were basically the ideological progeny of George Sorrel. You know, they, they viewed themselves as arguably, you know, they believed a total kind of regeneration of the race and the national community and a new conceptualization of man in the 20th century.

But at the end of the day, you know, they came, they were emergent from, you know, not just the spiritual crisis of the Western world, but the radicalism of the labor. movement, you know, and something had to change. What was imperative was not to allow, not to allow the communists and in their estimation, you know, the Jews to subvert this historical momentum, you know, to destroy the national community or the racial community or to like rip man out of historical existence. but that's very different than the way the national socialist approached things. You know, like, Hitler wasn't a fascist. You know, I'm not being obtuse and saying, oh, because he was a national socialist.

I mean, that goes without saying, but Hitler was something very different. As were the men in his inner circle, as were the control group. of the NSDAP, who were somewhat to screw, who Hitler had something of a contentious relationship with, despite the furor principle and everything else, but even,

but even the national socialist who found themselves kind of at odds with Hitler, doctrinally, they represented something very different, you know, and, um, and that's important. Um, ready for huge savings?

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Your five-star getaway, where every detail is designed with you in mind. Give the gift of a unique experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump-Dunbeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump. And I think that, um, because, you know, shorthand for, uh, Marxist Lenin is shorthand for all their enemies, basically is fascist. And that's something, I think because, uh, I think because, um, people in America generally are kind of intellectually impoverished in matters of politics, the kind of simpleton, like liberal left,

sort of like appropriated that vocabulary. You know, and there's an unfortunate tendency of people to kind of accept these things as colloquialisms, which is a very deleterious effect on the ability to conceptualize stuff accurately. But I think that's a lot of this misunderstanding comes from. It's like, oh, anybody

who the left uses their ops and anybody who's European and right wing but not a conservative oh they're fascists. That's not constructive and it's particularly inaccurate in the case of the national socialists.

I highly recommend Ernst Knowles these three faces of fascism. That was his first major word translated into English and he backed away from some of the epistemological claims

contain therein and some of the conclusions but I I don't find any substantial flaw with its methodology or its conceptual paradigm if you want to understand

what I'm talking about here that's a very good starting point but let me check for me to see how long have I'm going okay yeah we're definitely have to like wrap it up

in another episode before you tell me that's okay I just didn't I don't want to monopolize your time or be too long-winded

on this topic if it was making people bored or they wanted to move on but yeah I don't think anyone I don't think anyone's bored and wants to move on

so yeah no no I get I probably get self-conscious in ways that I shouldn't I think it's a whole over from when I was young and I used to worry a lot about that kind of stuff

um no feedback I mean obviously you get more direct feedback on this than I because it's your show but it's been uniformly positive but I I still worry about it sometimes man and especially when somebody's kind enough

to um you know um gift me with a platform um and discuss stuff with me but um the uh one of the things

it was uh Right around, it was March 32, so I mean, right around a lot of these critical events, but before the, before the fascist international Congress, when Moseley'd been back from Italy for a couple of months, the BUF was

formally kind of being launched in the political quarterly, which was kind of like foreign affairs, magazine is here, but like more widely circulated. Like basically everybody read it. It was politically engaged, you know, like regardless of their ideological strike. Mosey kind of laid out the case for fascism, but he did so in, from like a very, in a very

Hegelian way. He said, look, we are in the UK specifically in the midst of a crisis. You know, he's like materially, like obviously the Germans were hit harder than us, but politically our system is was and is in greater crisis than any other. You know, and he said this crisis has produced new parties, new types of men and new forces. And he said that the only way this crisis can be met, let alone mitigated, is by men who, quote, turn their backs on the old world and on the old political system. He said that communism, it won't just supersede social Democrats and labor rights. It will smash them.

You know, he said conservatives think that they can bring these people, that they can, you know, kind of gell to these people or cut them off at the knees by bringing them into the coalition. He's like, that's not possible, you know, because he's like, they're operating on the assumptions that were just enumerated. You know, like they are that vanguard of new men. And he said only the corporate state can defeat the Bolsheviks. Because he says not only does the corporate state present a model for economic planning that on the one hand doesn't leave macroeconomic decision making to chance, but it also doesn't strangle the golden goose. And it allows private capital to reap the benefit of its bargain and incentivizes. you know, investment in the nation. But he said also, like, out of this structure, you know,

will, comes like a defense mechanism of like men who are like mobilized in service of the nation already, you know, and who have a stake in the corporateist enterprise and contain therein is, you know, a very, kind of brass tax political education that draws very sharply the distinction between you know friend and enemy with respect to the internal situation you know so he says that this is imperative you know to basically um not not just to guard the empire

and guard uh the racial community and to uh protect Britain's political system from, you know, destruction and subversion from within. But he said it's also necessary to create and generate basically, basically an apparatus that they can inculcate, you know, men with the necessary political doctrine. You know, he's like basically like, by creating, the structure, which will then force a direct confrontation with the communists,

it will become very, very clear, like, who is the friends are of the working man and who is not. And those that would seek to subvert it will quickly be exposed as people who, you know, want to destroy any patriotic impulse, which they view as vestigial and reactionary, you know, in Englishmen specifically. So, you know, he was making his case, not just for political economy of a Keynesian stripe, but like with teeth. But he was also suggesting that this is the only structure that can facilitate, you know, national salvation and, like, the basic defense of life and capital. And he wasn't wrong about the conditions emergent, you know. I don't think people realize that in this country.

I think they have some idea that the U.K. is kind of like America light or something or just like a smaller version. They don't, like, they don't understand that agree to which revolutionary communism had momentum there. You know, it's not an accent. And, you know, like, it's not an accent that Cambridge Five were these, like, society-type guys. You know, like, it wasn't, it wasn't just, like, shop stewards and, like, angry, you know, kind of middle class types who, and in the British sense, that means something very different than here, who realized that they're kind of saddled with diminishing returns and the industrial

system kind of found themselves in the role of like underpaid overseer. You know, these were guys, like Kim Filby and his friends, these guys were like the best and the brightest, you know, I mean, and that they weren't outlawed. and the in the in the in the British system guys like that were groomed for certain roles within the within the empire you know you this you can't just talk it up like oh that's just limousine liberalism or that's oh that's just rich people being you know commies it's this you can't explain it away like that it's something very different um the uh but it was the that October,

1932, right around the time that Mosley turned 36 years of age, that the British Union of Fascists was officially formed with 32 founding members who kind of became the

Alt-Comfer. One of the most important figures person, just rather in the party, was Raven Thompson. And I've probably don't have time to fully flesh it out in this hour. But yeah, the degree to which to the kind of internal mythology, the B-UF, you know, like what Mosey and the members and men like Raven Thompson, who was the propaganda officer.

These guys were very, it's very much a Nietzscheanism through the lens of Bernard Shaw. And make no mistake, like Shaw was very much a Nietzschean. And I'm kind of fascinated by,

he was writing about the tragedy of the commons. And I can't remember the name of the essay. and he famously he famously said that Jack the Ripper was a great eugenicist and he was like performing an invaluable service

and he was serious about that kind of stuff like he wasn't just being he wasn't just being like an eccentric limie who likes to make taste of jokes about like cutting up hookers or something. I mean, yeah, there was some element of that too. But, you know,

this kind of constellation of ideological and and kind of conceptual tendencies from like George Bernard Shaw to to, you know, the Fabians that he associated with and in Keynes and Mussolini

and the kind of direct influence that early on he wielded intentionally or not over Mosley this was a very unusual consolation of aspects but it was very genuine it wasn't just this kind of grab bag of rationalizations

or something you know and it was a very it was a very British and specifically English fascism like there was a heavy Scottish contingent in the Buf and Ulster guys like interestingly Billy Fullerton the Billy boys

of sectarian lore were founded by Billy Follerton and he was a BUF he was like a day one like BUF Street Fighter, which seems peculiar on its face in some ways because Moseley was, you know, quite sympathetic to the Irish. But it, but there's something very, there's something very English and in some way Scottish as well, at least in some aspects of the party. You know, it can't just be understood as a kind of like a racialist or right-wing tendency that, oh, wrote under a fascist banner owing to some derivative impulse or something like that. It was very much its own thing.

But we're coming up on an hour. So, yeah, let's... I will finish up on Mosley and the epic. question next time. And I'll talk about the, I'll talk about the British Free Corps, which of course is the Britishers

who joined the Vafan SS, some of whom were British Union of fascist veterans. But I think that would be very good, man. All righty. Do plugs. Yeah. I'm very excited to announce that the movie, the

documentary, that my dear friend, Rake and I made, it's finally finished. So I'm going to spend this, like, the editing is finished and stuff. I plan to spend this weekend figuring out the best way to upload it so that people can see it. I haven't decided where I'm going to, ideally I want to upload it to substack. I don't know if it's possible yet. I might have to upload it to Gumroad. But believe me, everybody else shout it out on all my social media.

It won't be hard to find. Um, my substack is a real Thomas 777.7.7.com. I'm also on Instagram. I'm on X. I'm like many, many places. My social media alt is at number seven, H-O-M-A-S-777.com. That's what I've got. All right. Until part six. Thank you, Sums.