The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1195: The Life and Thought of Oswald Mosley w/ Thomas777 - Part 6

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

63 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas and Pete continue a series exploring the life and work of British Union of Fascists founder, Oswald Mosley.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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So thank you for the support. Head on over to freeman beyond the wall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingona show. Thomas is here. And I think we're going to close out to talk about Sir Oswald Mosley, aren't we? Yeah, we can continue for one more episode to discuss the British Free Corps if you want. I mean, I'll discuss some of that today, but it's up to you in the subs.

Yeah, we'll play it by ear. That's fine. The thing that's imperative to understand is a lot of what happened to Oswald Mosley, you know, and he was interned under defense regulation 18B, which allowed for the internment of anybody who was actively sympathizing with enemy states during wartime. This was so loosely defined, it could entail pretty much anything,

including mere statements. And as Lady Diana Mosley pointed out, You know, Mosley scrupulously obeyed the law. And he, there was precedent for this in terms of his personal as well as political conduct. When the police ordered him to do something, he refused to provide information on his comrades or members that B.W or anything like that. But if they ordered him to disperse, he did it. You know, and if he was threatened with a charge of a fray, he'd stand his people down. You know, and there was a substantial, in relative terms, number of BUF members, you know, who were in the British Army or with the police.

And he told them, don't, don't disobey your superiors. Don't undermine the chain of command. Don't ever do that. You know, he's like trying to encourage your fellow, you know, white Christian and Scottish and Welsh. sympathetic Irish men and women to see our point of view. But this idea that he was some dangerous revolutionary or that he was trying to subvert the crown by way of espionage, that's laughable. Now, there was a weird precedent, though, as the kind of what gave rise as paranoid. Like, don't get me wrong, the Churchill government and particularly Cretans like Van Satart, they wanted to harm.

Mosley for personal reasons as well as political ones. But there was odd intrigues that, you know, led to Chamberlain adopting some very draconian policies, including the treason act, which made it very, very easy to convict people of treason. And under the common law, as well as under the previous act, defining treason in the United Kingdom, which dated to the 16th. 1990s, not coincidentally. There had to be two witnesses accusing the defendant of the acts alleged in the indictment

and somebody could only be charged with treason by indictment. And the discreet and specific acts had to be witnessed. The treason act did away with all of this. Okay. You could be convicted by the same standard of evidence as any other felony.

And it was a mandatory death penalty. There's only one penalty and it was death. Which is quite completely insane. Okay. But why this came about, and this is important, I don't want to derail us. But in the World War II series, we talked about how the new dealers, and specifically Roosevelt, he quite literally sent Joe Kennedy away. to the UK. He did that were a couple reasons. The American establishment and the bridge didn't

particularly like each other. This was not some like close, cozy relationship at all. And Roosevelt didn't, well, Roosevelt didn't like Churchill. He had contempt for him. Roosevelt didn't like Chamberlain. He thought he was in a feat snob and a jerk. You know, the U.S. government didn't like the crown. You know, so sending America first, Joe Kennedy over there. It did two things. It subtly antagonized the British and prevented some kind of sympathetic ear being offered to them from the Department of State.

It got rid of Joe Kennedy, who was a thorn in the side of the new dealers. But it also, you know, one of the things that people like Van Satard, in typical kind of conspiratorial British fashion, One of the things they use the presence of people like Kennedy there for is they wanted to see like who he was making contact with. Like they wanted to see who in like a wider cultural milieu between the UK and America was stoking access sympathy. And this this this led to a very, very strange case. I'm just calling my outline real quick. I want to see what I forget me.

It was the case of a It was the Kent affair, okay? And this is relevant to some of the other things we talk about. Like, Tyler Gatewood Kent, he was a legacy diplomat. Like, he'd been born in Manchuria, and his father was the consular, the U.S. consul. Okay. He developed a fluency in Russian because he was something of a polymath. Okay, and he literally just, like, studied Russian.

you know um he went to the university of madrid for a time through his father's connections you know then he joined the state department he was the first uh american ambassador to the soviet union under william bullet but then uh weird stuff started happening on the eve of uh the war um in 1939 um some of his colleagues began to suspect that he was a Soviet sympathizer. And they went as far as suspecting that he was spying for the Soviet Union. And he had knowledge of

of cipher pads and things. You know, like a lot of State Department officials, especially in those days, he was basically an intelligence man. They were under like light diplomatic cover. But basically what some of his

colleagues were sympathetic. pathetic, to say the least, to the Roosevelt New Deal program we're saying, was, look, just so you know he's a Soviet agent. And OSS later insisted on the same thing. The British were convinced he was a fascist, and this is where this gets interesting, because he got removed from his posting in the Soviet Union. But obviously, Roosevelt was cultivating deep interdependence with the Soviets, even amiss the non-aggression pact. So when Kent arrived in London where he got sent, you know, in part because so his superiors could keep an eye on him. When he got there, he immediately made contact with a guy named Ludwig Matthias. And Mattias was almost certainly an Avvara agent. And he was under investigation by special branch.

Okay. Then Kent was seen hanging around this kind of haunt in South Kensing, that Russians were known to frequent. You know, both, you know, emigrades from the white army, you know, who'd fought the communists and, like, died in the old Soviet types. And he met this Russian woman, kind of like lesser society type woman who'd been married to this rich British merchant, and he started having an affair with her. you know, and they started going back and forth between the UK and the Soviet Union.

Now, through a lady named Anna Volkov, who was another kind of society person, he met Archibald Ramsey. Now, Ramsey had been an associate of Oswald Mosley, and he founded what was called the Wright Club. he defected from the conservative party and then from the Scottish unions that found the Wright Club. And the Wright Club was basically like an anti-Jewish pack. Okay. And it had his ability to kind of attract like society people. You know, and this made special branch really upset. And I made Chamberlain really upset.

And when Churchill ascended. to the prime ministership, he basically resigned to destroy it. And this is another thing that Regulation 18B was tailored to crush. But it's interesting aside. It begs the question, like, what was Kent's deal? And Kent, he was ultimately brought up on charges for his associations with people engaged with the right club. as well as him acting as an intermediary between various pro-axis elements.

And he probably knew Lord Hawa, William Joyce, personally. He definitely delivered coded cipher messages to him. Okay, and we'll get into who Joyce was in a minute. But, MI5 essentially, they approached Joe. Kennedy in May 1940 and said, look, if you don't waive Kent's diplomatic immunity, we're going to assume you're in cahoots with him and we're going to charge you too. This was like the implied threat. Okay.

So two days later, Kent's home got raided by MI5. And they found almost 2,000 official documents as well as messages between church and and special branch, which beg the question, how the hell did he get hold of that kind of data? But they also found he made copies to the code room at the U.S. Embassy. Him and Anna Volkov were both charged with violating the Official Secrets Act. And he's lucky because he probably could. could have been executed, despite being a foreign national, had like the treason ad come down and

been tested. And while obviously he couldn't have been tried for treason, it would have set a precedent of killing people who were viewed as acts as agents and had been insinuated into sensitive roles. He was tried at Old Bailey in a secret trial. No witnesses were permitted. The only witnesses was permitted were from MI5, so that they could document what exactly he had. and what he knew. And my 5 and my 6 were there. But

Ramsey Archibold Ramsey actually testified against him which was grimy, but Ramsey's supporters or apologists in the present day would suggest that he was convinced

that the man was a communist, which doesn't make a difference to me because you don't rent people out and lie on the I don't care what they are. You know, if there's something a horrible person, like a child molester, okay, deal with them extrajudicially

and give them some justice. You know, you don't testify on people. Okay. So Ramsey kind of showed his true colors as a coward, but that's actually a credit to Mosley is the reason why he didn't associate with people like the right club. But, um,

he was sentenced to seven years. He was eventually released. Air Grid, operator of Ireland's Electric grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November.

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And watch unmissable shows like all her fault on Sky. These nice people killing you, John. And Ballad of a Small Player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I've made some mistakes. Right, who hasn't? Get one gig Sky Broadband, Essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Our lowest ever price.

Availability subject location, new customers only, 12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter. TV and broadband sold separately. Terms apply for more infoosies sky.a slash speeds. after as the war was coming to a close, okay? He immediately left the UK upon release, which is understandable. He went down to Texas in the early 50s, and he married this wealthy heiress down there,

and he immediately joined this organization that was probably an undercover, like, clan outfit, like KKK outfit. And he started publishing this pro-segregation, like a tabloid. And he started railing against Kennedy, saying Kennedy is a communist. Now, the FBI investigated him as being a KGB asset, but they could never show up enough of a case to charge him formally. They just made his life miserable. And they couldn't conclusively figure out what his angle was.

I mean, to me, it's pretty clear he was like a Francis Yaqui type. you know and he started making Soviet contacts after the after the non-aggression pact was signed and then he saw the writing on the wall and realized I'm going to do everything I can to kind of swing the strategic balance in favor of the Soviets because they're definitely going to win this war and I want to do everything I can to undermine the Anglo-American Zionist alliance that's very clear to me okay

but it makes sense that the FBI and MI5 couldn't figure this out. Okay. But Kent really, really upset. The whole incident really, really upset British intelligence, and it specifically upset the focus. Okay. And as it became clear that war was inevitable

between the Axis and the UK, because Chamberlain had been totally compromised. in part by his own, you know, by checkmating himself with the war guarantee to the Polish junta. But also because the focus and the war party was just gaining too much power. I mean, it should have been clear that Chamberlain's days were numbered anyway and politically he was dying. But often, especially in a system like the UK's in a parliamentary system, the prime, minister he developed he's insinuated is insulated by something of an echo chamber and the information he's privy to is not truly insinuated into what the opposition is thinking it's not

like America okay um there's just blind spots kind of built into the executive um but as uh as it became clear that the british were not going to come to terms no matter what um henry williamson approached moseley And Williamson wasn't a fascist, but he was very much, like, enamored with Teutonic stuff and with Germany. And he had, you know, he had kind of a long view of what was underway. And he said, quote, if I could see Hitler, you know, a fellow common soldier of 1914, you know, I might not be able to give him the German common soldier, the enmity. desired from England. You know, to be fair in those days, like, people weren't really privy

to a broad conceptual horizon in terms of policy as it was developing. I mean, Williamson was like a society type and a novelist. He probably was naive, but, you know, it wasn't clear that the fix was in, no matter what the crown was going to war. That was the whole point. But he sought out Mosley he sent him a letter and then when Mosley, like asking if Mosley could arrange somehow willing to get an audience with Hitler,

which was very naive because like despite Hitler was very fond of the Midford sisters and Gerbils in particular respected Mosley himself like as a man and also like as a political soldier. But this idea you could just like get an audience with the furor

that's somewhat ridiculous. But Williamson went to visit Mosley on August 26th, you know, days before, 1939, you know, days before the onset of war. And Mosley was totally resigned and is like, look, I read your letter. I understand you're upset. I sympathize, but this is pointless. And we're probably all going to be interned if we keep doing what we're doing. But I'm going to see this through.

And so Williamson left, like thinking Mosley was some kind of like maniac. but of course he was absolutely correct. You know, um, what really, what really kind of changed things from, you know,

rumblings by people like Van Satart and the war party talking about, you know, like locking up traitors and whatever. It was when the Germans overran the low countries. And, um, you know,

it became clear that, you know, this, entire enterprise of drawing Germany into some attrition war on the Belgian frontier and then

they're humiliating them on the battlefield or trying to force terms that they would undoubtedly find unconstable whereby, you know, the Vermeck would overthrow Hitler or whatever these MI6 types were thinking. I mean, it began clear that that was like a

ridiculous fantasy. So, as the battlefield situation turned for the worse. As the British Expeditionary Forest or the Allied Expeditionary Forest was fleeing in terror at Dunkirk, the establishment became obsessed with this idea of we're going to be subverted from within. And there's some fifth column leaking information to Berlin. And Mosley and his supporters are agents to the Ave there, which is laughable, especially you consider the ad ver was like the fifth column in Germany. But

the degree to which people like Vance atart believed this or not and whether they believed some like feline assault by the Vermacht and the Kriegsmarine was going to happen. It's hard to say.

I mean, to me that seems incredible. Anybody would believe that. But Hitler did you know, he assigned von Roonstadt to actually, in fact, engineer an operational program for Sea Lion, going as far as the outfit civilian barges with literal aircraft engines to pilot them across the English Channel, having Frankenstein them into landing craft. I mean, Hitler did that as a strategic ruse, you know, for the, not to frighten the British, but, you know, to essentially spoof like Stalin's intelligence apparatus.

And I mean, Hitler wasn't a fool, you know, in terms of his ability to empathize with others and their likely perceptions. But it's one thing to convince the Soviet Union of something. It's another thing to convince the British. not because the Soviets are dumb and the British are smart, but there's cultural and linguistic barriers there, and there was this physical distance in those days where you couldn't have an electric eye on something 800 miles west. So this was kind of a perfect storm of conditions

whereby the war party could begin treating Mosley and anybody else they decided was insufficiently enthusiastic about the war effort as, you know, traitors and enemies of the state. And this was exacerbated by the fact that Edward the 8th, the former King Edward the 8th, he'd only reigned from January 20th, 1936, until December of that year. When he abdicated to marry Wallace Simpson, you know, the American divorcee, kind of flapper, hearty-year-old, she was a woman, she was like in only 30s. But, you know, Edward the 8th was a known anti-war partisan, and Van Satart began insisting that, you know, obviously we can't place the Duke of Windsor under arrest.

But, you know, him coming out publicly in favor of the Peace Party could sabotage the war effort, which is already becoming desperate, in strategic terms. And this basically was when the fix was in, okay, for defense regulation 18B. And when Mosley was arrested, to be clear, at peak, there was only 65 or so internees. And a lot of these people were there, like a lot of these people were, right? club members. Some of them were Imperial Fascist League holdovers. But it was basically tailored, like a lot of that was cosmetic. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area,

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later after, TV and broadband sold separately. Terms apply for more infooshees sky.a slash speeds. It was very clearly tailored to incarcerate Mosley and, you know, ruin is a... Without making him a martyr, And they realized even if they had the nominal legal authority to execute him, that would have been disastrous for reasons I'll get into. But 18B was like the Imprisoned Mosley Act and all but name.

Okay. The immediately before, or in the year, in like the six to 12 months before he was incarcerated, in the days after the UK's war declaration is Germany, Mosy went on a tear, but he framed this very skillfully. Like, I don't mean anything cynical. Like, he believed everything he said. But he, again, he was sticking to his admonition to people to scrupulously abide the law and not to try to undermine the war effort. Although, you know, obviously, like, he admonished people not doing anything to help it.

He started characterizing the Peace Party. cause, like, would have become kind of the Peace Party de facto, as, you know, leave foreign elements on the continent to fight out their own quarrels. You know, he's like, we, we've got to, we've got to curate the empire and what remains of the empire, you know, because at that point, there was, uh, the Irish situation, you know, there was real talk in the parliament of letting India go. I mean, this, this was, uh, this was a critical juncture in historical terms. You know, and he said that we've got to carry the empire. We've got to shore up, you know, this vast capital that we do still possess.

We've got to transition somehow into a post-imperial condition without sacrificing our power projection ability and our truly global capital. You know, and this made a lot of sense, not just a fascist. And, you know, people who are disgusted with the war party and the focus, but it made a lot of sense. even the Tories, you know, like those who hadn't been totally compromised by, you know, by the focus and an adjacent element. And Mosey was saying something that was on people's minds, but was not supposed to be said. You know, he said, like, war, even if we win this war, it will lead to the disaster of defeat. It will lead to the triumph of communism in planetary terms. It will be the end of the British Empire. You know, the only winner.

will be international Jewish finance. You know, his word's not mine. I'd agree with that, but just to be clear. America in the Soviet Union and world communism. This is a suicidal effort. You know, the Germans are not our enemies, but if you hate them, we can't win this war. You know, and a certain energy started developing behind that.

You know, like Diana Mosley made the point. Like years on. And that October, 1939 at the Stahl Theater, just under 3,000 people turned out. And mostly sort of openly condemning Jewish capitalists, you know, American Jewish capitalists and radical, um, radical elements, uh,

you know, who, who, who have a Zionist, uh, cause in mind, who are, or are driving us towards war.

when when Britons have no interest in this war. And she said that people were going nuts. Like, effusively, they were, like, throwing Romans at him and stuff. You know, this, at the new hippodrome, it was the same thing. It was 2,000 or so people, you know, almost all of whom were, like, throwing Roman salutes. It was like a mini, like, Nürmber rally. You know, and obviously special branches on the ground, watching this stuff and hostile media. I mean, other than the daily mail, the entirety of

national media was against Mosley, but, you know, just by word of mouth and just by, you know, getting FaceTime with regular people in all these districts where there might be fertile ground for his message. And of course, too, these are the guys and the parents and sweethearts and wives. that guys who are going to get drafted living in these places. There was a real momentum there. And this was London also, in large measure, okay?

And I mean, that's huge. And especially in the UK, it's like, every one thing if Mosley was only raising mobs of this of this numerical magnitude, you know, in the sticks or in, you know, kind of

far-flung constituencies. I mean, like his own, frankly, that'd be one thing. But I mean, this was in London. He was doing this. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area

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These nice people killing you, John. And Ballad of a Small Player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I've made some mistakes, right, who hasn't? Get One Gig Sky Broadband, Essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Most ever price. Availability subject location, new customers only, 12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter, TV and broadband sold separately. Terms apply for more infoosies, sky.a slash beads. You know, and the mostly like rallying cry at this point just before internment was like, raise your arm for peace, meaning like, you know, hail victory, but, you know,

for peace. You know, and that really, really, really upset Vansettart. Van Sart took it going around, handing out, I mean, what a petty piece of shit this guy was? Is there going around, drawing up a list of people he wanted to see shot for treason? Like what kind of a, like, what kind of an adult man of presumably, you know,

sound mind goes around, drawing up a list of people he wants dead. I mean, you can't you can't make this up. But these are the kinds of people who were you know, in the true seat of power, which speaks for itself. But

another thing that kind of not just sealed Mosley's fate in terms of the focus regime but also raised his profile and made him indisputably the the leader of

the British fascism and national socialism it was the matter of the matter of William Joyce, as I think of it, and also Gerbils openly praising Mosley. And Gerbils didn't really praise anybody outside of the Greater German Reich. As part of that was political. Part of that was because Gerbils was, it just wasn't really in his nature to be that charitable, you know. But William Joyce was executed. And it gross miscarriage of justice, and I'll get into why it is. Who is William Joyce?

William Joyce during the British Union of Fascists in 1932, so he could be considered an alt-copfer. He became a leading speaker. He was an Irishman. He was Protestant, but he was an Irishman.

I don't mean he was an Ulster man. I mean, he was Irish, Irish, but I'll get into his family's loyalism and his mother's confessional heritage. But he, he was a typical kind of,

or not typical, because he's not typical about this, but he was kind of like a cliched, like great kind of like Irish order and like partisan. You know, uh, he was this like very thin,

almost kind of, almost kind of spectral looking man, like very pale, but super intense. You know, it wasn't conventionally handsome, but like, women really liked them and like and like guys looked up to him and you know he there's like the kind of

dynamic like really really forceful angry tenured was delivery that never seemed like theatrical or ridiculous like the guy he just seemed like a stone cold artisan who also had like a gift of like beautiful flourish that was never obnoxious and soaring in it in its quality but uh he He became the Buf's director of propaganda. He replaced Wilford Risdon and later became arguably the, like, the closest man to Mosley, like, in the leadership element. He also, like, as another, like, cliche to Irish character is, he was a brawler. Like, he'd go toe to toe with any man. He had no fear.

And despite, like, not being physically strong, he was incredibly tough. and people were afraid of him. He was like a legit, like, street fighter. But what's significant, though, is he'd been born in Brooklyn, New York City, USA. His parents were from the west of Ireland. His mother was this devout, like, Anglican, like Church of Ireland. his dad was a Catholic, but his mom definitely ruled the roost. And when he was still an infant, his parents moved back to Ireland.

But his citizenship was American and Irish. He was not a British citizen, and this becomes significant, not just for academic reasons, but for reasons of due process and other things. but his big his big contribution in part he spearheaded the effort to, first of all, he was instrumental

in changing the name of the BUF for the British Union of fascists and national socialists. He identified as a national socialist first, last, and always. Okay, he had no time, I mean, he was obviously pro-white, like all national socialists are, but he had no time for the bullshit racialism

of people like our own lease. You know, he said, our enemies first, last, and always are the Jews. You know, if we're not going to attack Jewish power and identify Jews as, is like the enemies of the European race, then we're not serious. You know, and the transition to the party platform away from this kind of like, in ideological terms, that kind of secular corporatism and away from this kind of like bullshit racialism towards, you know, a real kind of national socialist disposition that was very, very focused on combating when they perceived as the Jewish enemy.

This was because of Joyce, okay? He was ultimately sacked by Mosley. And he went on to establish his own national socialist firm, which wasn't the mass membership organization. That begs the question of his other Joyce, despite his brilliance for oratory and political soldiery in partisan terms, I speculate he might have thought that a sea lion assault was coming, and he was trying to form a cadre. But be as it may, him and Mosey's falling out. Mosy refused to condemn him or speak against him. It was pretty clear it was personal.

Or Joyce, maybe will have had designs on leadership. And that's something you can't tolerate. It doesn't make you an egomaniac or somebody who's in the game for clout. You can't have people who are, like, intriguing to, like, replace you in the ranks. But one of the reasons I believe that Joyce thought sea lion was going to be a reality, Joyce said to his intimates and confidants openly, he was really outraged by the government of India bill, which was passed in 1935. I mean, outraged at the government because that basically was a plan for like a kind of devolved federalism or devolved administration. in India, similar to what had gone on in Ireland, with eventually, obviously, like, letting India go. Joyce said, you know, I'm going to be the viceroy of India someday when we win, meaning the

Axis Powers, you know, who is there going to be underarms as a cadre, you know, but us and and the BUF, you know, a national socialist who've proven themselves by fighting the communists in the street. I'm paraphrasing, you know, and Edward VIII is going to, he's going to, you know, he's going to reclaim his rightful place again, you know, on the throne. And I'm going to become the viceroy of India. You know, he's like, Mosley told me that. I mean, whether Moldly told him that or not, who knows. but obviously as late as late as uh 1941 or so there's no he believed that this was going to like actually going to happen and don't get me wrong everybody thought that germany was was going

to realize ensig that's what i'm talking about he literally thought that like there was going to be like a national socialist united kingdom like under german hegemony and the empire was going to, you know, become like the fascist guardian of the sea or something, which seems pretty fantastical. But again, I've noticed that in my own life, as well as in my studies of the historical record, a lot of guys who make the best partisans, you know, in the way that Joyce was, they don't really understand, like, conceptual geopolitics and in Zyke, guys. things. Okay. So I'm not going to sit there and make fun of Joyce for being like an Irish, an angry Irish romantic who, you know, was at base like a political soldier.

But Joyce realized the way things were going when the Second World War broke out, and that he realized, okay, I'm probably imminently going to be arrested, you know. So Joyce and his wife emigrated to Germany. He'd been tipped off probably that he was going to be detained somehow, even before defense reg 18B came down, especially because he wasn't a British citizen. You know, if they wanted to really play perfect as hardball, they could say, well, you're an enemy alien, aren't you? you know um and in 1940 he became a naturalized german citizen and upon owing to his own kind of gumption in charisma as well as the fact that again he and mozzi had a falling out but mostly never condemned the man or anything of the sort um joyce had uh he had a chance of meeting um with a lady named dorothy

Eckers Lee, who'd also emigrated to Berlin, and she'd been in the women's division of the BUF. And she got him an interview, or at least a sit down at the Rundfunkhaus, the Broadcasting House, okay? That is how Lord Hawa came to exist, okay? Because Gerbils, who was always looking for people who could propagandize fluently, you know, in languages that would be impactful in key, um, constituencies. You know, I can't remember his name was on my head, but there was, there was this Iraqi guy who became buddies with gerbils, and he'd broadcast, you know, Arabic language pro-axis propaganda to Iraq, the Levant, um, you know, Palestine. And I mean, that's fascinating, too. but uh

joyce's first broadcast uh he read the news out in english on september 6th 1939 just three days after the onset of hostilities um and they were so impressed um and he had he had perfect diction you know which he was an educated guy and again he had a cosmopolitan upbringing despite you don't think of like an Irish street fighter as having that sort of intellectual resume, but he did. And he became

the exclusive English and newsreader of the propaganda ministry. He got his name a guy named Jonah Barrington, a daily express radio critic. He referred to him

as a man quote moaning periodically from Zeeson who speaks English of the ha-ha-d-dammit get out of my way of variety. So, uh, joyce decided to lean into that shit and started identifying himself as Lord Haw-Ha.

Which is actually pretty funny. But, it, um, what's ironic, though, is later, there was this guy, uh, who's a comedian. Um,

who was also on a on um on on on on on berlin radio then named a wolf mittler and uh he was a comedian and a journalist and he'd affect this like almost flawless english accent that sounded deliberately moronic almost kind of like a monty pythonish caricature you know and just like say like ridiculous bullshit and um it's it's it's believed barrington might even though he said that it was joyce um that he heard he might have heard uh, Midler, which makes it even like more funny. But, uh, you know, and like, uh,

as on this side, I mean, admittedly, like, uh, I've, I've got, uh,

I've got kind of a strange sense of humor, but, uh, if you know what to look for, and you understand the context, like, adjusting for historical, uh,

nuances, uh, like a lot, a lot of stuff that came out of Germany of, like, that was deliberately comedic was actually, like, really funny.

Like, it's not, like Germans are just like a funny people you know like figuratively and like literally in terms of their comedic chops but um this I mean this whole thing kind of seems like

like something you'd see in like a comedic satire movie like it is just weird but I mean like everything everything that happens with respect to the British at war time is weird but um the uh the combination of lord of

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12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter, TV and broadband sold separately. Terms apply for more infoosies sky.a slash speeds. Broadcasting on the daily and that and British intelligence, you know, which was, and they were very good. And they still are in imperative terms. them coming to understand that Gerbils thought highly the Buf

and he basically never mentioned like any other like national socialist element abroad MI6 Secret Intelligence Service they relayed back to they relayed back to the

the War Cabinet look Gerbils considers the BF to be like the National socialist cadre in the United Kingdom. That's literally what they said. And that's when the fix was in, finally. I mean, I think it was, mostly was going to be incarcerated regardless, but that was when even accounting for the deliberately loose language, statutory language,

devised for Regulation 18B. Now they had what was, you know, concrete evidence that Moseley was a clear and present threat to national security. And that was that. What became a Joyce, this is important. And just horrible. Joyce was captured at Flingburg, which is near the German border with Denmark, which of course, was where the last, it was near where the Donets government was. You know, Joyce got captured. the British Army intelligence obviously they took a very strong interest in what was going on in that operational area.

They spotted this disheveled-looking guy gathering firewood, you know, so they confronted him. The German Jew, who's adopted name was Jeffrey Perry. he'd been born Horst Pinshever or Pinshever. Pinshever, like a lot of German Jewry, German and Polish Jews, had found their way to the UK and the USA, and they were very deep in military intelligence. And, of course, one of the men who testified, interrogated and testified on Piper and Liebstein-Dark was Pearl.

who later came out was a torture. You know, his old thing was enhanced interrogation, which is really, really grotesque in all kinds of ways. But I have no idea if Perry, aka Pinship, ever tortured anybody. But he was an intelligence man, and he engaged Joyce in conversation. and he was about to let him go and he said

you've got a really interesting diction you know have you ever have you ever been West have you ever been you know to the United States or the United Kingdom and I guess Joyce answered him in English and they carried on for a moment

you know Joyce kind of carefully guarding his identity. And one of the other men in Pinsheber's detail said, that's Lord Hawa. I recognize that voice. And Joyce had a really, like, deep register that was distinct. You know, and if you hear somebody on the radio all the time, and especially intelligence types,

who I'm sure were studying these broadcasts, Penn Shever then detained him and after a while you know Joyce is like look I'm not I'm not gonna pretend I'm William Joyce

I'm Lord Hall you know he was driven to a border post and then he was handed over to the MPs he was taking to London and he was tried on charges of high treason because again

the treason law the only punishment was death, you know, and he pled not guilty on a theory of, I'm not a citizen of the United Kingdom, I can't be a traitor, you know, and a lady named Rebecca West wrote a book called The Meaning of Treason. And this kind of brought the case to kind of greater awareness. Like people, I think people didn't fully realize, especially because of our propaganda as they were, as well as the lack of availability of information that we take for granted today.

Take for granted today. I think they just assumed that you've been tried for, you know, some kind of propaganda-related war crime or something, you know, and didn't really think about it. You know, and of course, Julius Stryker had been executed for quite literally publishing a magazine or a newspaper that was in bad, taste. You know, I mean, so, but he was literally tried and executed for treason. You know, and AJP Taylor, who's a not, he's a revisionist in a sense. He's a great historian. I highly recommend him. Norman Davies was a disciple at Taylor. Taylor. Taylor wrote in his history of England, technically Joyce was hanged for making a false statement when applying for a passport,

the usual penalty of which is a small fine, which is kind of that's literal gallows humor, but it also happens to be true. The statement, just for clarity, and I'm sure the same, subs are probably interested. The statement, the literal statement that was attributed to Gerbels regarding the matter of Oswald, Mosley, and the Buf was, this is submitted by Special Intelligence Service. They claimed Gerbils was on a record as saying, quote, Mosley is making his presence felt.

If he goes ahead skillfully, he will have several opportunities. that seems weirdly cryptic and scripted. I mean, I've read a lot of what Gerbils wrote. I don't want to get into some debate about, like, what is authenticated and what is not. Just take my word for what I've written a lot of what Gerbils. I've read a lot of what Gerbils has written.

That doesn't sound like his writing voice. And it's just, what does that mean? Like, you know, this guy will have many opportunities. Like, that seems tailored to kind of substantiate a charge of some kind of subversive activity in the role of proxy of an enemy element. Maybe I'm looking too much into this, but I don't find it hard to believe that Gerbels praised Mosley. He probably did directly in the presence of somebody who then availed this hearsay to some British agents, or, you know, it was recorded on some document that was then appropriated and delivered to, you know, the home office and intelligence branch or whatever.

And this is just kind of like the way they decided to paraphrase it and cross their proverbial tease and dot their eyes. But, yeah, let me see what the time it is. I think we're looking I think we're looking at another episode Yeah yeah yeah I'll wrap it up here in a minute And next episode we'll deal with like the British free court Because that's actually important

And it's like a good addendum to this And plus it's just cool Like Britishers Being in the Vof and S is just cool I mean I think it's cool But I'm sure people who are inclined to listen Will too But um

There's also been a theory And I don't know where David Irving fell on this. I tried to find it, but his, God love Irving as well as anybody in his orbit, but the other than his bookseller website for focal point publications, the David Irving archive is like a mess. It's become like a non-navigable mess, which sucks. I really, if anybody close to Mr. Irving is watching this, please salvage that stuff and make it accessible in a coherent way. Because God forbid Mr. Irving passes away, we're not going to be able to access that stuff. And it's going to be wiped from the cloud. But I digress.

I think Gerbils may very well have been talking about Albert. Arthur Albert Tester. Arthur Albert Tester, he's referred to in a lot of MI5 and MI6 memorandum as Dr. Tester. Tester was the son of a British foreign office guy, a diplomat. And he married a German woman. And his father was the long-serving consul in Stuttgart, where Tester spent, like his early childhood. And because that's where he learned to speak, both English and German, for the rest of his life, he spoke English with like a slight German accent. Okay.

When the First World War broke out, Tester was interned in Germany as a British citizen. After that, his life kind of goes dark. But he was chased out of France under suspicion of espionage. for Germany. Then he ended up in the UK in the 30s. He moved into this luxury penthouse apartment

in London. He also had this like stately mansion on the sea. And like nobody had any idea where this guy got his money. You know, it's like there's some prestige to like being a diplomat

like his father was, but those guys didn't have money. You know, so early on Tester joined the BUF and kind of before Joyce really became a force within the the British Union

Tester was advocating national socialism you know he and he was basically he was translating a lot of national socialist literature into English his significance isn't really clear he claimed that like he was the mind behind it he said yeah Mosy was like a hard man and a charismatic man but I was the brains behind the Buf like I wrote their propaganda I was the aide de Camp of Mosley I I was the one on the ground at Cable Street who rallied

everybody I mean the guy was like an egomaniac okay um so a lot of this was probably cap and bullshit. But he did play some role. And because he was rich as fuck, for reasons nobody could explain, you know, suddenly when he joined, that's when like Mosley stopped being desperate for money all the time. It's like, obviously, like, he was throwing a lot of his wealth into a BUF coffers. and Tester was also he was the only direct link to the in terms of a chain of money or information or liaison

with the German Reich. He founded what he called the European press agency which was he held him so foul as I'm just like an independent newspaper man but this was like a Reich propaganda apparatus. Like, that's not, that's not, um, pejorative, but this is what it was. Okay. And it's believed by a lot of people, um, like, uh, you know, um, like revisionists and others that, okay, yes, Gerbels made this

statement, but he was talking about tester, you know, like, why, why would Gerbil's just, like, randomly mention Oswald Mosley. Conveniently, when there's need to, like, identify some statement that can, you know, kind of sew up a charge under 18B. So take that for what it's worth. I accept that perspective. I think Tester was the subject of the statement.

But yeah, yeah. I hope people are continuing to enjoy this series. And we'll go one final episode on the British Free Corps. and that'll be a change of pace, but it's important. And it bears directly on the fortunes of Mosley for the remainder of his life. But yeah, yeah, that's what I got. All right. Cool.

Plugs, please. Yeah. The best place to find my work product is on Substack. It's Real Thomas 777.7.7.com. At long last, I'm going to upload. the movie that my dear friend, Rake and I made this weekend. I'm just sussing out the right platform. But regardless, even if I got to put it on Gumroad or something,

you'll be able to link it from there, or it'll always tell you where it's at. My alt on social media is at capital R-E-A-L-U-S-N-S-7-N-N-E-A-S-S-S-S-S-S-7-7.com. And you can also search me into my government name. I'm Thomas Seer. Um, and see can you still find. Yeah, that's what I got. All right.

Until episode seven. Yeah, thank you.