The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1220: Continental Philosophy and Its Origins - Pt. 7 - Machiavelli w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

61 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas continues a series on the subject of Continental Philosophy, which focuses on history, culture, and society. In this episode he talks about Machiavelli.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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So thank you for the support. Head on over to freemanbiontthewall.com forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingiano show. Thomas is back and he is going to continue talking about continental philosophy. Where are we going today, Thomas? I was going to segue into a discussion of Machiavelli. If really for the last, really like since the Eisenhower era, I don't know what it's like now when it speculated the same, but basically in the 1950s from the post-war era when the university curriculum was was sort of reestablished and reconfigured until the 1990s.

if you studied political theory or Western philosophy that had an, like at undergraduate level, for example, that had a component of political theory, you'd, the curriculum would teach, um, Hobbs, Spinoza and Machiavelli basically has one subject matter. Now, Hobbes and Spinoza succeeded Machiavelli. Hobbes was literally born right about a generation subsequent, but the reason why that's done, it's an oversimplification, but I get it, the internal logic of it. Machiavili and Hobbs are considered to be the fathers of modern political science. and, you know, like I said, people like Mirschimer, who I consider to be like a complete midwit.

I mean, he's preferable to the abject morons and cretans who generally populate the academy and and the Department of State, but he's gotten a real grasp of political flaws. But people like him, they claim that Machiavelli is the father of political realism, which doesn't really make any sense. But what is true is that Machiavelli was very much in dialogue with the Nicomacian ethics. And arguably in a punitive way.

But that's the whole point, is that Machiavelli was arguing as an Italian Catholic and like all Italian, and really all Roman Catholics, there's this tension between Athens and Jerusalem as philosophical pole stars. You know, Christ and Pericles, if you will. That's different than the enterprise that Hobbs took on. That's not what Hobbs was doing. Hobbs literally thought that he was creating a science of the political. You know, and he was. he wasn't

he wasn't trying to reconcile that which is holy literally with you know that which is pragmatic and necessary

according to the demands of power you know in the discreet domain of political activity it's like a difference between it's like trying to compare Ernst Nolte to say like Klausowitz because Nolte was a guy who wrote

about the epistemological and phenomenological process of war in peace and where it emerges whereas that Clauswis is writing about like how war is waged and how you accomplish victory conditions within the domain of political realities Or it's like comparing a book on physics to like a manual on how you build a bridge. You know, so I think it's misguided that these things are lumped together. At the same time, it does big a question as to whether Hobbs and Spinoza read Machiavelli. In my opinion, for reasons that I've said to scope right now, but I'll get into what people want me to later, I think Spinoza probably did.

I don't think Hobbs did. because it wouldn't have interested in them, you know, other than maybe it's like, oh, well, that's what these, that's what these Latins are doing in this, their little warring states, um, conflict that seems to never end. You know, um, but there's also to, um, there's also represented by Haas and Machiavelli, to, you know, when did the modern state emerge? Was it Cromwell's protectorate? You know, the republic he created, literally, after killing a king? Or was Ferdinand and Isabella Spain, like the first Westphalian state, as we would think of it? That's an interesting question, and I don't have an answer to that.

It depends on what your criteria are. and it depends on what constellation of historical factors do privilege. But that's why it's important to to kind of discuss Machiavillian Hobbs

and also Spinoza, but so, you know, not, I don't place the same emphasis on Spinoza. Not because he's not important, but I'll get into why when we reconvene for the next episode, and explicate my reason.

But that's why I'm treating them kind of as a singular subject episode as it were. And that's also why, like I think I alluded to the other week, you know,

in a series of Chronoth philosophy, you know, why am I talking about English mathematicians turned political theory as well? Because from that point forward, basically, every man who wrote about the politics was, you know, obviously in dialogue with Aristotle, but also with Hobbes, okay? And, you know, for clarity, it's not so much what Machiavelli wrote in the prince that's so important. It's what the impetus was for him writing it, I think, is what's significant. And there's a certain naivety, I think, to a lot of academic types as well as people who should know better, people who are insinuated into power political roles. you know, this idea that

in classical antiquity you know a prince or a king or a warlord he had you know he he was exclusively committed to these kinds of highfalutin ideas of like an elevated morality

and and discerning what you know magnanimous virtue is and and he would recoil at the idea of you know a kind of cold-hearted realism and how to apply power like that's preposterous that's ridiculous you know and Athens

especially but all the Peloponnesian cultures within that milieu they were very aesthetically oriented there was things you didn't talk about like appearances mattered you know the fact that the fact that um generals and and princes and nobles they didn't air out the kind of nasty aspects of war and peace and the kind of dirty business of palace intrigues, even among their peers, that doesn't mean any of them. Other than the fact that, you know, they were highly dignified people who were kind of upset by the uglier aspects of life. You know, I mean, I, that's, there's a literalism to,

Acadine, particularly in social sciences, that's quite literally retarded. I don't mean that, like, colloquially. I mean, it's like a stunted way of approaching the human condition, and especially when dealing with the matters that are impacted by discrete cultural conventions. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th, because The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Lidl items, all reduced to clear.

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Or as you run across, especially a lot of stuff from the first half of the 20th century, that just refers to Aristotle's ethics as distinguished from the politics They're talking about the Nicaramaki and Evics, okay? The subject matter of the Nicaramaki and ethics was virtue. Everything in the Aristotelian paradigm, and this isn't unique to Aristotle. This was, you know, the classical mind.

There was an integral quality to knowledge. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't. wasn't bifurcated by subject area. And there wasn't an understanding of, well, discrete domains of human activity. It called for, you know, any equivalent discrete moral convention that governs action within these spheres. You know, to Aristotle virtue is the kind of governing poll star of any human. human activity. You know, it's also the tillos of political life and action.

And, you know, it's critical to define what virtue is and what can be understood to be its zenith or its most complete manifestation. You know, and one of the, one of the big, criticisms of Socrates by his enemies and by Aristotelians, you know, axiomatically. Is it socrates spent events, Socrates spent a tremendous amount of time, you know, in his discursive dialogues, attempting to define and like unpack and identify the the constituent elements of what is the virtue and uh in some basic way the entire socratic enterprise was you know defining what exactly virtue is and to hold forth on the concept of it and to clarify it and there's a

subtext that any truly satisfactory resolution in this regard will never be arrived at, you know, which is high sophistry, and that's incredibly subversive within the cultural paradigm I'm talking about. Like, in contrast, Aristotle very much clarified these things. in absolute terms, which had been the sort of cultural core of Athens that had seen it, despite the fact that, you know, Aristotle was a contemporary of Alexander, you know, like he taught him. Okay. Athens was still enjoyed tremendous cultural cachet, but they were a civilization in profound decline. by the time. But that's often the case that kind of in the twilight of,

or at least, you know, post-Zenith, a cultural forum will produce some of its strongest thinkers because they have, at least on matters of things like ethics and aesthetical subjects. Because they're far enough removed from the zenith of

of cultural production, as it were that, you know, they have a kind of detached perspective. Well, still very much insinuated into a culture that although in precipitous decline is very much like a living form of life. The Nigamagian ethics, it's totally unambiguous in its definition of virtue. Erissel defined what he called the crowning virtue as magnanimity. Magnanimity is the quality of being great in mind and heart, which in turn makes possible the elevation of all other, like, subjugated virtues. It's a code of honor.

it's an intellectual orientation, it's an aesthetic commitment. It's kind of like, it's kind of like Bushito with the added layer of, you know, a rigid intellectual discipline overlaying it. That's an impertog analogy, but I'm trying to convey this in a way that people will find, intelligible but it's also it is literally pagan you know it does not call for men to be humble or to embrace humility now make no mistake the magnanimous man he's never self-deprecating he's never a humble but he's also not arrogant because he has a correct understanding of his own abilities. He never tries to inflate those abilities for clout or to capture power

he doesn't deserve, but he never tries to diminish himself in the eyes of others to make people, you know, find them more approachable or anything or abide as some sort of, you know, egalitarian convention, because this didn't exist in classical antiquity as a concept. magnanimity, men who possess it, they're going to be singularly oriented towards seeking greatness and great things.

The way to understand is what we would consider to be like living historically. Okay, you know, um, it's a psychological orientation that adorns all other virtues and

traits a character it's not so much a discrete virtue into itself as it is a way of being. And, you know, a magnanimous man, again, he's not going to forego, for example, he's not going to forego material wealth or an interest in women or, you know, he's not going to live as some kind of hair shirt or live like John the Baptist or something. But he's not going to place undue value on these things. You know, and Aristotle's very clear, like men who try and capture wealth because they want the trappings of magnanimity, they don't possess it. Because a man so constituted doesn't care about that kind of thing.

You know, I'd say Pericles is probably the best example from within. cultural milieu from which Aristotle was speaking. You know, and it's, again, the Aristotelian model of human psychology and kind of human essence is a highly integral. So the understanding is that, you know, there's not discrete geniuses in different fields you know, there's men who are oriented towards greatness and have the capability to achieve it, and they've got the psychological foresight, and they're comfortable enough with their own mortality to pursue these things in a complete capacity. You know, I think of Napoleon, Muhammad, Pramwell, Adolf Hitler.

okay um but i don't think like an ancient person you know if i were transported back to have a conversation they were startled he would probably say that a man like me is is far too mired in the business of like high politics you know um at at the expense of other things which is probably true. But one of the objections I have to people who are trying to adopt the kind of pagan mindset. I don't mean goofballs who, you know, take trips to Stonehenge and like run around naked on the solstice or something. I mean, I mean, people like Ellen DeBenois who seem to think you can take on some sort of mindset of class plan and say, what do you? You can't do that. It's not only work.

You know, and I, you can kind of create an intellectual pastiche of the way people thought within that cultural framework, but you can't really immerse yourself in it. It's not possible. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together, we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.com.

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Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Well, it's also, I mean, we're getting a little about topic. I don't understand why they care about Zionism. It's like, well, if you reject Logos and you want to pretend to be some pagan, like, why do you care about, why do you care about Zionists? you know like you shouldn't like you like your your view is that um there's this kind of binary um and primitive tribalism that if dressed up with adequate aesthetic and intellectual foundations is you know represents truth so you know you shouldn't care that you shouldn't care that you know people who reject logos and you know to think that they're above god like you shouldn't care about

what they think or you shouldn't care that they oppress you or other people you know um but yeah no that's um that's subject worthy of the dedicated discussion but um the uh there's a um make no mistake. I mean, there are, this isn't, people misunderstand this resilient paradigm kind of the same way

they misunderstand in the Eichian's post-Christian ethical orientation. Like, Erissel makes the point again and again in the Nicaramaki and ethics that, you know, for example,

like about what's morally upright in conventional terms. You know, young people should develop a sense of shame because oh and their immaturity for example like they can't help make mistakes so you know like a like a very young man with the potential for to be magnanimous if he went around declaring that he was never wrong and he

simply knew better I mean that'd make him a fool you know and that would preclude the achievement of greatness in his moral life Okay, but this is distinguishable from, you know, a belief that that which is holy must always supersede worldly ambitions and greatness. You know, the Leo Strauss and Joseph Croftsie book on political philosophy. Leo Strauss is a problematic theorist, but he did produce some great scholarship of value-neutral. sort. And, you know, the first prophet that presaged the arrival of Christ

was Isaiah. I mean, if you're like a Bible prod, that's the way you look at it. Catholics might look at it differently. I honestly don't know. I know something about Roman Catholic theology because I had to take it at Loyola as an undergrad, but I'm very much a layman. in it but if you're a if you're a bible protestant um the view is that you know there's a lineage from like Isaiah to John the Baptist you know to Christ and when Isaiah received uh his vocation like when God spoke to Isaiah and and you know in a for him he was to be a messenger you know which

what a prophet is you know he was overwhelmed by this idea of his unworthiness. You know, he said, um, I can't read the exact quote, but he said, I'm a man of unclean thought and speech and deed. Okay. And I, I live amiss

of people who are equally unclean in their thoughts indeed. I'm not worried to serve God. You know, you must find a better man. You know, this kind of like implicit condemnation of the idea that you are destined for greatness.

That's completely at odds with the pagan idea and the classical, I mean, ideal of magnanimity. You know, like if, and that's that concept of the holy

and that bifurcated understanding of the transcendent from the worldly, that's totally alien to the classical perspective. You know, and that's why Leo Strauss, Russell Kerr, Comercia Eliotti, they're always talking about, you know, Athens, contra Jerusalem. And that's what they were talking about.

Okay? And this Machiavelli is shot through with this. You could go as far as to say that that's the entire. catalyst for his discourse. You could even go as far as to say, and Hobbs did, reading between the lines, it's clear that he did, you know, a philosophy that's based on faith

or premised on a theological paradigm, even as just a framing device, as to what sets the tenor of an absolute morality, which must frame discussion of political, activity. They can't, that's not really properly a philosophy. You know,

philosophy is an integrated science. Okay. And obviously, in the early modern period, there wasn't this integral view of knowledge, but it's not an accident. I mean, Hobbs literally said he's establishing a geometry, a science of the political that has nothing to do with faith-based ethics, you know, any more than there's a moral content to studying physics.

You know, so Machiavelli kind of agonizing over this stuff, which he did. People don't understand Machiavelli, or they heard some, like, rap album or something that invoked the name, or they think the colloquialism has some actual definitive weight. So they think, oh, Machiavelli is this, like, unscrupulous guy rubbing his hands together and talking about plotting against people and institute. That's not, Machiavelli was actually, like, an arch-moralist, and he was a pious Roman Catholic. And that was exactly why he was, he agonized over this stuff. Like the guy was a moralist, okay? Hobbs was not. And that's essential.

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i.e. forward slash under insurance. Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. You know, nevertheless, I would say that serious people who study political philosophy and political theory, there's people who aim to understand political ontology. And sort of the anthropological causes of political behavior, the kind of symbolic psychology that underlies it, the kind of data that can be drawn from conditions tending towards war or peace, and the cyclical paradigms, if they exist, that can be identified as, you know, for the purpose of predictive modeling. analysis you know those are the kinds of this kind of that tendency that like split off with hobbs people quite literally talking about political ethics and how to manage the demands of moral behavior with the brutal realities of statecraft and how these things can be reconciled and what the really

relationship is between temporal authority and, you know, moral authority. You know, that's the Machiavellian enterprise. So, I mean, capital L. liberalism, it owes a lot more to Machiavelli than is the Hobbes. Okay. Even though people like John Locke, they try to invoke the language of Hobbs while hanging all this sort of moral content. on the thought experiment or the conceptual model

the state of nature you know but it was very superficial I think people like Locke are incredibly overrated but this is important because you know it's not

this is kind of like linear progression from oh Machiavilli to Hobb to Spinoza to you know Kant or whatever It's also, again, like Machiavelli, he actually represented the opposite tendency of what people associate them with. You know, it, you know, and it's something to, there is a parallel that's interesting because both houses and Machiavelli came out of what could be considered. you know how the intellectual progeny of uh of uh the 30 years war

or the conditions that created it and obviously in the UK they were hit especially hard even though the even though Great Britain um the British Isles weren't the battle space you know um a microcosm of what was happening on the continent emerged with the war of three kingdoms you know and uh crombo was a great man he was a hero in the carolile sense and in the colloquial sense but that was a tremendously traumatic thing you know um that he did you know um it was an act the creative destruction on the like any other within the political domain. But, you know, this was, this constellation of factors was well underway when Hobbes reached age of majority.

And Machiavelli was, you know, Italy, I mean, Italy is still like a mess in terms. in terms of its political culture, but it quite literally was mired in a perennial civil war that reached zenith around the time of Caesar Borges' stewardship.

And Maggioli served the court of Caesar Borja for about a year, which had to be something of a terrifying experience. I mean, even if Seager Borja liked you, you know and um so there's a bias in favor of uh identifying remedial measures when conditions tending towards civil war are emergent um in both men's um conceptual models but arguably i mean that's the ultimate challenge of uh statecraft as a executive crisis actor, you know, and I think people don't necessarily realize that. And aside on the fortunes of the of the police or the state or the nation, you know, that stands to tear herself apart,

if conditions depending towards civil war are mismanaged your own neck is literally on the line you know you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna die with the failed state you preside over

I mean not you've got to be prepared for that if you're a magnanimous man or if you know if you're any kind of man worthy of the office or the station but that does tend to insinuate a sort of mortal seriousness into the subject matter. I think that goes without saying.

But that's important contextualize that. And like I said, I think arguably that renders both men's kind of conceptual modeling more relevant than something that's, you know, only held discrete significance in the peculiar epoch in which, you know, their body of work, respectively, was emergent. But the, you know, and the last thing I'll say in the kind of comparative, direct comparative analysis between the two men. You know, again, Market Valley's whole enterprise was this discursive engagement with Aristotle.

Hobbs threw the baby out of the bathwater. Hobbs quite literally said that there was no science of politics before he wrote Leviathan. You know, he regarded himself as the true founder of political philosophy. you know, writing treaties on ethics or on the aesthetical aspects of the magnanimous man or, you know, agonizing over, you know, what constitutes a moral life in the court of the prince. That's nothing to do with science, you know. And thus it has nothing to do with the study of politics, which, like,

like physics or like biology is reducible to a science. You know, um, and a, how does words, these things are the stuff of dreams, not science. Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community.

Find out more at airgrid.i.4. Northwest. On the many nights of Christmas, the Guinness Storehouse brings to thee Christmas nights at gravity. This Christmas, enjoy a truly unique night out at the Gravity Bar. Savour festive bites from Big Fan Bell, expertly crows. crafted seasonal cocktails and dance the night away with DJs from love tempo. Brett take infuse, amazing atmosphere, incredible food and drink. My goodness, it's Christmas at the Guinness Storehouse. Book now at giddlestorehouse.com.

Get the facts be drinkaware, visit drinkaware.com. Inflation pushes up building costs, so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Under-insurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing contents. It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly. For more, visit understandinginsurance.i. forward slash under insurance, brought to you by Insurance Ireland. You know, and this is important, because if you're going to literally craft a science of politics

and the central subject matter of the science of politics is to mitigate or ideally eradicate the state of war within the polity. What criteria are you going to base that on? Like, what are your variables? What are your inputs? Magnanimity is your input? There's got to be some sort of common. engagement mechanism

that is universally relevant to every constituent member of the body politic and I think I got into this last time Hobbs says well human beings are idiosyncratic

in the configuration of their desires and motives and other things but what is universal to them is their susceptibility to the economy of violence. And the economy of violence is what governs the state of nature and is the core essence of the political. And there's no idiosyncrasy between how men view self-preservation and how they view being a availed to a violent death at the hands of the sovereign who wields absolute authority over life and death.

You know, that might seem like a base criteria for variable engagement, but it's a very concrete one. And more importantly, it's a realizable criteria. that can be utilized within the geometric paradigm that Hobbs was devising. Something like magnanimity and higher virtue is not a variable that can so constitute such a science. you know so it doesn't matter that this is debasing the kind of soul of politics or something or that it's precluding the emergence of men suited to greatness and situated towards those potentialities you know because again it's like it'd be a good. like arguing over you know it'd be like saying I can build the strongest bridge over

this ravine or over this chasm based on this structural configuration but the but then there's a counter-argueing emergent that but that bridge isn't beautiful enough you know okay well you can have a bridge isn't going to collapse and people traverse it or you can have a beautiful bridge that doesn't work as a bridge you you know, is that reductionist? Yeah. But there is an internal logic to that paradigm that is pretty admirable. And again, it helps with Hobbes if you approach Habizian theory like Schmidt did.

And, you know, you don't even need to go as far as to posit, well, this is a domain of human activity that just takes place beyond good and evil. No, we're talking about quite literally the anthropological, the symbolic psychological, and the lack of a better descriptor, the mechanistic aspects that constitute the essence of war and peace and the economy of violence, which ultimately is, you know, the essence of the political. Now, moving on a bit to some misconceptions about Machiavelli, I believe, and I reread the Prince the other day in preparation for this. I mean, I read it a bunch of times in college and subsequent,

but I believe the chapter on Caesar Borja and his machinations You know, Borja was the illegitimate son of the Pope This was a very decadent family And they were incredibly ruthless people You know, even For that culture and era

I got a lot of love for like Latin people I think they've I think they're sanguineer aspects and their passion is really beautiful. I'm not saying bad things about them, but they're capable of incredible violence

of a very hot-blooded sort. It's I mean, my people are ruthless as fuck, but it's there's something there's something frightening about like a Spanish or an Italian

crisis actor on the warpath. And there's a kind of genius for the economy of violence, some of the Italians, I think. And I stand by that. But in talking about the case of seizure Borges, Mogherly makes clear, well, you know, a prince at all times

he should appear manly, morally, upright, brave, pious, you know, a religious believer in control his faculty at all time. Incidentally, when a Machiavelli's big, Machiavelli was a big critic of Alexander, which is interesting. And he said, one of the things that brought Alexander down was that the perception was that he was ruled by his mother. And Alexander may have committed patricide. I find it persuasive that he killed his father.

but whether you accept that or not he was Alexander was viewed as a mama's boy he was viewed as a guy who's dominated by women and it's not an admirable characteristic and that's a frailty that is literally fatal

in power politics you know Maggavili emphasized again and again these things can't just be superficial appearances like you've got to actually aspire to these things you know, but you've got to be capable of, you've also got to be capable of being a monster.

You know, that doesn't mean that you put on airs and act like a degenerate because that makes you hard or something. Like, not at all, quite the contrary. Machiavelli was very much a believing Catholic. You know, but a man who thinks he's above doing monstrous things can't be a prince. Because you're going to be called upon to do monstrous things that are totally offensive to your person and that are totally offensive to God. You know, but that's that's how every prince, but that's the tradeoff for the great wealth and power and esteem of prince enjoys on earth. But that that also, I mean, everybody has their cross to bear. Like every man, no matter how, you know, like lowly in his worldly station or how elevated,

the cross to Prince Bears is that he's going to have to do horrible things, okay? To protect his people, to protect the polis, to defeat his enemies, to guarantee the posterity of his dynasty, all of these kinds of things. Now, the case of Borgia is interesting because of how Frank Herbert is a big Machiavelli guy

and Vladimir Harkonen he's kind of a pastiche and both Lynch Dune and Villanou Dune I don't think either one really nails his character

adequately but he's in a large part of Caesar Borgia he's kind of like a cross between like Caesar Borgia and Stalin but Borja was made he was made commander of the papal armies

by his father who was the Pope Alexander the 6th the papacy at that time wasn't it to Alexander they were highly reliant on mercantaries And Machiavelli was going to have to this point that mercenaries are shit. You know, you've got to have men who are, well, will die for the Paulus, or die for the state. Interestingly, Machiavelli is one of the first political theorists who invoked the term state.

But, you know, you can't, in all these, like, mafia movies, there's like this bastardization of the query. It's better to be, like, feared or loved. you know, that's not a query in mind. It's obvious. It's better to be, like, revered. Like, if people fear you and the men under arms fight for you because you pay them, like, it's, you're going to be despised. Like, people hate what they fear.

You know, people need to fear your temper. They need to fear transgressing you. But, you know, if you're, if it's just like an ogre who's this object of fear, who like men obey under pain of mortal jeopardy, because you're paying them you're going to be murdered at first opportunity you know but uh bringing it back um the uh the orsini brothers who uh were very much insinuated into the french court um they were these uh they were these kind of like mercilious aristocrats you know um and uh the pope had a real problem okay because he depended on these guys

for their battlefield aptitude you know and their ability to kind of finesse interstate power political concerns and intrigues like as the you know as the you know kind of Italian states were warring with themselves but obviously they very much had the Vatican kind of by the short hairs you know um what uh what caesar borgia did to consolidate his own power and uh cultivate and curate a view of himself it's a liberator, the kingdom that was key to papal authority owing to the military paradigm under way was Romania. So what Caesar Borges did was he basically promised they were Sini brothers that if they

break with the French court when he conquered Romania, you know, he both pay them better, and he'd give them official government posts, but they essentially had to stand down from military command. And the Rossini brothers said, yeah, that's great, but you're not going to pacify Romagna. That's laughable. Well, what Caesar Borges did was he hired this guy

who was a notorious ghoul, really, named Ramiro de Orico Ramirez de Orico Maggiavoli referred to him literally as a beast Okay And in Dune you know the beast Rabon This is exactly what Baron Arconin does

Remiro de Oricco He goes through Romania And he starts utterly brutalizing people You know He slaughters people wholesale He doesn't give a fuck You know And

Caesar Borgia let this continue for months on end. You know, and when the people appealed to Alexander, like, you know, we're being slaughtered and brutalized. Our wives are being raped. Their children are being murdered. We're living in terror. Well, Caesar Borgia says, I'm going to liberate Ramania, and I'm going to cut this brute orco in two. And that's exactly what he did. You know, just like Baron Harconin, his big plan was to deploy Beast Rabon to Iraqis.

And Rabon was such a psychopath and such a brute and such a ghoul that when Fader Altha, you know, overthrew him and, like, cut him in two to liberate Iraqis. You know, he'd be viewed like Pericles or like Caesar, you know, this, like, great man who not only was like a great warlord and a real lord. and a real man, but, you know, a liberator who killed the monster, who killed the beast who was enslaving us and brutalizing us. You know,

um, and Machiavelli, he says like, Cesar Borgia doing that, he's like, that was an incredibly brilliant thing to do, and it was. Like, Machiavelli didn't say, like, Cesar Borgia was a nice guy, and I want him to fuck my sister.

Or like, I, I think he's the kind of person I want to go bowling with and, you know, like, tell sea stories too. Like he was saying that, you know, that that required a genius for intriguing and ruthlessness. Most men simply don't possess.

And Caesar Borgia ultimately came to a bad end, but he guarded his father's dynasty and posterity. And this was a tenuous position too. I mean, he was, he was the illegitimate son of the Pope. This was delicate, you know. So he basically, he bought off and neutralized his main enemies. He pacified Romagna.

He conquered it. And in so doing, everybody viewed him as a hero, you know, despite the fact that he caused all of this. Like, that's utterly incredible. You know, like, I don't know what else to say about that. not once that um not once that the Machiavelli suggests that this was a good thing

you know and in fact if anything the uh there is no other boards that are kind of synonymous with this literally like incestuous kind of palace intriguing and this kind of gross brutality is because of

Machiavelli because I mean he described how awful this stuff was but you know it also um represented an aptitude for power that basically almost nobody possesses, and that's why the Italians are great people.

It's not just because they make, like, the best food and really cool sports cars and produce pretty women. I mean, I like all those things, too, but, you know, they really do have, like, a genius for, for, for politics, of a really sanguinary sort. But, um, yeah, we're coming up on an hour. I'm gonna, we'll, we'll wrap up Machiavelli and get into Spinoza next time, if that's okay.

Sounds good to me. Tell everybody where they can find you right now. Yeah, I'm, uh, uh, Jade Burn and I just dropped the new episode of Radio Free Chicago. That seems to be popping really good. Um, my home right now is Substack. It's Real Thomas 7777 at Substack.com. and I can't remember if I shouted this out last week or not

I uh since we got nuked off at Discord I've been looking for a new home platform to do our like Saturday night streams and I'm gonna start doing them on a rumble that seems like a natural fit for us I've been playing around with the platform

like since we got back from Nashville and I'm comfortable with it So this Saturday, we're going to go back to our weekly live stream schedule, like 9 p.m. Central Standard on Saturdays. There's an announcement of my substack and my Tgram, and there'll be like a link to it. But yeah, I'm in the process of reconfiguring my content, but the substack's popping very good. And there's a lot of stuff there. There's this stuff I do with Jay Burton. There's a bunch of my own, like, videos, there's my podcast.

There's a bunch of, like, long-form stuff. There's my science fiction novel that is serialized on there in its complete form. So, yeah, if you want to get engaged with what I do, that's the way to do it. All right, Thomas. Thank you. Until the next episode. Appreciate you.