The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1222: Christianity in Germany During the WW2 Era w/ Cody Justice

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

77 MinutesPG-13Cody Justice is the proprieter of Sacra Press.Cody joins Pete to talk about Sacra Press' upcoming release, "Positive Christianity in the Third Reich: Including the 28 Theses of the German Christians and Miscellaneous Documents of Cajus Fabricius."Sacra Press - CODE: PETEQCody on TwitterPete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's Substack Pete's SubscribestarPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingiano show for the first time. Got Cody Justice here. How are you doing, Cody? I'm doing well, Pete. Thanks for having me on. How are you doing? Doing good. Doing good. First time, you got to tell everybody as much about yourself as you're willing to.

Oh, we could be here forever. Yeah, I'll give a brief intro. So my name is Cody Justice. If you see me online, I'm the founder and the editor of Sacra Press. We're a book publishing company. I say that we publish reformed right wing and classic books. I use sort of idiosyncratic definitions for each of those words. You can find that on the website to define more specifically. about what I mean. We're not like a typical book publisher where we just publish theology. I intentionally crafted the project to be broad. And so we publish theology, philosophy, political theory. I have intentions to publish more than that. So it's intentionally eclectic and broad, meant to be dynamic rather than a narrow niche. Our tagline is publishing the sacred truth for a new day to renew the Christian West. You can go on the website to find out more about that. In addition to books, we also publish songs. These are AI generated and then art prints,

Lord willing, in time to come. But our bread and butter is books. These are both physical and digital. Mostly, these are republications of books that are in the public domain. Sometimes they're translated out of either Latin or in the case of Caius Fabrizia. out of German. Then we also publish newer books. So we've got several in the pipeline, and one we just published by my friend Michael Spangler. He's a Presbyterian pastor. That book is called Christian Race Realism. It's kind of like an introduction to the topic of race from a Christian perspective, not just the Bible, but also from nature and history. It's about 200 so pages, concise, clear, great introduction to the topic. I also do a podcast with Michael. It's called the Old Paths podcast.

The tagline for that is retrieving and applying the historic reformed faith. I promise I'm not one of those annoying, insufferable reform types. There's some Catholicity in the way that I hold my theology and such. So we do that podcast. It's been going on for several years. We've touched on race there as well. We just finished up a series responding to a pastor on all sorts of issues related to race and nations, nationality, immigration, all these sorts of questions. He did a five-part series, and when he began the series, he had named my friend Michael, and he had implied me very clearly as well. And so we thought, well, we'll respond to your series, and we critiqued him and took it apart. And so if you're a Christian, you know, that's a great series to go to if you want to try to understand some of these things and why Christianity doesn't contradict nature and kind of classical view of anthropology and nations and such. And then lastly, Michael and I just launched a publication project.

It's called American Mantle. So it's a Protestant right-wing online journal or magazine of sorts. So we're about two weeks into that when we're very excited about it. We've got, I don't know, maybe about a dozen articles at this point. And we're trying to fill something of a hole that we sense. There are other publications out there, but they're not always as candid and as clear, especially in their political stance. And so that's something that we're trying to lead on. So that's a little bit about me.

All this online stuff is not my normal work. My normal work is in the real world. Work with my hands. I'd like to keep that quiet and not say too much about it. Yeah, I think that's a good introduction for who I am. Awesome. Awesome. So let's get down to the topic.

Before we do that, I just want to announce to everybody who's watching. You should know by now that once I cover a subject, I pretty much move on from it. and if you contact me and say, hey, that subject you were talking about, I know somebody else who you should have on to talk about it. If you do that, I'm either going to ignore you or block you because I consider it to be rude to my guest. So, you know, no, you guys know me by now. Don't Spurge out. No Spurgs. If you watch my, if you watch my live stream on Sunday with Cody, you'll get it. I've watched off and on since last year.

I think the first time I found you was you were on contramundum last year, and that's how I found you. And yeah, I've listened to quite a few of your episodes. And yes, the ones where you go after the spurks. And I sympathize. I respect that. Yeah. Contramundum was a great visit.

It ended up getting me written up in a newspaper as a filthy anti-Semite. Naturally. Thanks, guys. Appreciate that. But, all right, what we're here to talk about. You are, it looks like you're publishing, what's the name of the book, the author, and just jump. Yes, so publishing positive Christianity in the Third Reich, including the 28 Theses of the German Christians and miscellaneous documents of Caius Fabricius. Quite a mouthful.

the original title which I intended to publish was simply positive Christianity in the Third Reich. And perhaps some of your audience are familiar with this book and have read it. It's only about 80-some pages. You could read it in a few hours, perhaps less. So I first came across that particular book several years ago. It'd have to be three or four years ago now. I've always been something of a contrarian. So I got a court order when I was 15.

to drop out high school and took my GEDA, went straight to work. That's kind of an example of that sort of contrarian streak. There are other things in my life as well. And part of this manifested in sort of doing alternative research on different things, starting with 9-11 and then moving to other topics and eventually getting to World War II. And so I had come across different resources, and this was one of them in the course. of that study that I found online. I found it on archive.org and I read it in a day. I thought, this is an interesting little book. And the main thesis is something I have never heard before.

Essentially, the main thesis is that Christianity, at least the version of Christianity espoused by Caius Fabrizius, that's probably the best way to say his name. He believes that it's compatible with national socialism. I'd never in my life heard anything like that. I mean, recently, a man was just on Tucker Carlson, and Tucker Carlson made a passing remark in their discussion saying, well, we know that none of the Nazis were Christians. Like, that's ridiculous, right?

And here's this guy I'm reading. It says, no, actually, we do. Christians are a part of this movement. So that's what got me started. I reformatted the book a little bit, got it ready for publication. I planned to launch that back in September of last year, a bit of a symbolic launch for those who are familiar with some of the history of the Third Reich. Well, back then with our publishing efforts,

I was still linked up primarily with Amazon, print on demand, we're just getting started. And they hemmed and hauled took me back and forth through this process, approved a book, disapproved it, approved it in Japan, and disapproved it everywhere else. And I was frustrated. And after that, I found more resources from this author. So I didn't technically publish the book when I planned to, sadly. And as I studied more, I found more and more of his documents.

And essentially over time, I just said, I'm going to translate these and I'm going to include them in the book. and it'll be a brand new book. It'll be something that actually no one has had possession of as far as I'm aware. So that's what I've done. So we've got his original book, which is about 80 some pages. And then there are about, I think, eight or nine other smaller works included by the same man by Caius Fabricius. So these works span, I think, from about the year 1933 all the way to 46 after the war had ceased in Europe. And so the book ends with several of his formal legal documents. One of them is actually report of his imprisonment. He was imprisoned by the German authorities for one of the works that he wrote, which is also

included in the book. And in that work, he critiques some things that are going on. And he says there are these people that have infiltrated the German authority structures, and they are turning national socialism. and the whole goal of everything that we started completely against its initial aims. And so he makes this critique, and of course is during wartime. And there's a little bit of ambiguity about precisely why he was in prison. But the suggestion does seem to be taken into custody, rather,

the suggestion does seem to be that it bothered Himmler. He had sent this kind of a confidential memorandum to a number of different colleagues in academia and then some. some in the German authority structures. Anyway, that's one of the three in the book. Then the other two are actually affidavits that he gave at Nuremberg. They're quite remarkable some of the details in there. And the last one, if I'm not mistaken, is where he gives his reasons for joining the National Socialist Party.

And so he says that he was an instructor or professor of theology, and he had students, male theology students. who were in the essay. And he says he was so impressed with their character, made such an impression on him that he was basically impelled to join. And so he doesn't have anything bad to say about it. And in fact, after everything is over,

he basically says, if there are any attacks on churches or anything like that, that must be regarded as an aberration against the fundamental principles of national socialism and what we were all about. This is remarkable because this man in some sense was kind of, he suffered from the German authorities themselves for critiquing them on what he viewed as Christian grounds.

So the book has a lot of different material in it. You'll get his basic political theory treatise where he at the beginning is trying to show the compatibility between Christianity and national socialism. He doesn't do any deep exegesis of the scripture. that may be unsatisfying to some people, but I would suggest just reading and evaluating judiciously, the book on its own merits. He more deals with kind of themes and motifs of Christianity in relation to the on-the-ground political situation

of national socialism. And in addition to that, he has other works. So German Christians in the struggle for the gospel, Germany and the religious world situation. And that one, he's kind of taken a broader view and saying, here's what's going on historically across the world with all these revolutionary movements. Here's what part of the world believes is going on in Germany.

They think it's this totalitarian nutcase regime, and he says, no, that's actually not what's going on. And although some of the actions of the regime may be strong, you should understand the historical context for that and why that's occurring. I include the 28 Theses of the German Christians, as translated by Corey Mahler, with his notes. Then I also include as an appendix the same theses and their explanation by the principal author thereof, namely Walter Grundman. He was another Protestant theologian.

In addition to this, it has the Jewish question in the German evangelical, or we could say Protestant Church. and this is Fabrizius himself, not just dealing with the Jewish question, but also answering some of the critiques and even condemnations that were raised against the German Christians, of which Fabrizius was a part, where this emergency pastors league, partly in response to this nut guy named Kraus, they basically wrote a condemnation of the German Christians and of the 28 Theses and what Fabricius does in the Jewish question in the German evangelical church is effectively he's just rebutting all of their objections and their condemnations, much of which he says are complete straw man. He says, you have totally misunderstood

what we mean by this and this. Then he's also got the Rican struggle. If I remember correctly, this one is where he details some of the initial problems that he saw. Inner armor is his attempt to strengthen things that he sees as waning. And then again, I mentioned those other documents. So that gives you kind of a window into the book itself. Like I said, I think it spans, if I'm not mistaken, about 1933 to 1946. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th,

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So the main text, Positive Christianity in the Third Reich, is released in 1937. What is the purpose of him writing it? Is he trying to convince people? Is he explaining? Why is he doing this? Yeah. Well, I think he wants to show that national socialism and Christianity are not a contradiction, but they are harmonious.

Now, of course, certain people are going to go automatically to the worst possible interpretation, but again, I would recommend you read the book on its own merits. So I'll just read the first opening paragraph from the forward. He says, quote, there's much misconception in the world today with respect to the position of Christianity in the Third Reich, opinion being rife that an anti-Christian attitude or paganism is at the moment predominant in Germany. These were the considerations which led me to issue an English edition of my book. Now he goes on to say this book is not an official statement. It's his own individual statement, but he is representative of national socialism in a sense

and of the German Christians because he's a part of both of those organizations. And so what he's doing is he's sensing there is a misconception of what's going on in Germany right now and I'm writing in part to correct that in one of his other works he mentions effectively the same things as I said he I think it's in Germany in the religious world situation he says there's people that think there's this totalitarian crazy state these reports they're so common So this is not what's going on. Actually, what's going on is that Germany has been renewed and basically rebirthed and brought back from the brink. Yeah, I guess the place to go there is, do we have any idea what the reaction is of that?

Because we do know that there were anti-Christian and pagan influences that seem to have very loud voices. I don't I think the the extent of it from everything that I've been able to research is very, very overblown, but also you have loud voices that are sort of communicating it. And not only that is when you have voices as such, certain Christians of certain ilk are going to, who are against the Third Reich are going to look at. those voices and be like, see, that's what they're all about. And just concentrate on that and be sort of a distraction away from what's going on over here because, I mean, it's insane to say that, you know, it's like, oh, this was, there was no Christians in the Third Reich when

there's pictures everywhere of them taking communion in, in the field, you know, during the war or, you know, worshiping during the war. I mean, it's just, you, you basically have to go into, you know, fantasy land or, you know, you become one of those people who was like, oh, you know, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, it's just a fight. Authoritarians fighting over who's going to control the world and you just go into strawmen or just out and out lies. So, you know, how is this, how is this received, I guess, is a good question. How is the book received now, or how was it received when it was published?

When it was published. That I can't say for sure other than Fabricius what he says himself. So in one of his later works, he mentions that a bishop in England received the book well. In fact, thought that having read it, it was good cause to try to seek good relations with Germany. Of course, this is before the war had really kicked off. I read that and thought, wow, I mean, that's quite remarkable. Fabrizis does touch on the pagan element. He actually expressly highlights that in several places. And my sense from reading him, okay, not from reading all the material out there, but from reading Fabrizius himself, is that that became a particular

problem later on, which Fabrizius attributes in part to them having infiltrated key leadership positions within national socialism or the German authority structures. And he says, these guys are creating real problems. In fact, he says, they're against the German nation at this point, because most of the Germans are Christian. So you can find this information, even in critics and condemers of the Third Reich. So, right to Patman. He wrote the book, Fascism and Action. He admits in that book that Germany was overwhelmingly Christian, and he cites Michael Power in part for this. If I'm not mistaken, he basically says, effectively you've got two thirds of the country. They identify as Protestant, and then the other third identify as a Roman Catholic.

And then whoever's left is a very clear minority, like 5% or less. Fabrizius himself uses the 95% figure in one of his works. He says Germany is 95% Christian. Now, they're going off of different reports and statistics there. So perhaps the number is less. But so you're talking about a country that at the time was about like 66 million. So that's not something small or minor. This is pretty significant. Now, it's not to suggest that they're the only country that identified that way. I think the United States at the time was close to the same sort of of identification, if I'm not mistaken. You'll find also in other critics and condemers of the Third Reich, Susanna Heschel. So she's a Jewish academic liberal lady. I'm not sure if she's

written a book like some of these others, but you can find some of her papers online for free and read them. And she says that there was enthusiastic support for the national socialists on the part of Christians and churches. And she says, especially for Hitler from Protestants. Everything that I have read from Fabrizius and then from other German Christians, such as Joachim Hassenfelder, from Ludwig Mueller, from a man Wilhelm Stoppel or something like that, they all seem to regard Adolf Hitler as a Christian.

You can do with that whatever you want. you can say that's complete baloney i mean i'm not really trying to make a a perfect infallible judgment there all i'm really doing is reporting on what these people said in their own day and they also all emphasize to to one degree in another the german character or excuse me the christian character of germany i mean historically that's what it was you go back into the 19th century it's clear there's there's christian influence you've got men like paul de la garre you've got men like paul de la garre You've got the other two Adolfs that a lot of people don't know about, Adolf Stecker, Adolf von Harnack, and others. And these aren't just like pastors.

Some of these men are politically involved in shaping the nation in that way. I'm not suggesting that they were the height of the heights in terms of theological orthodoxy or precision or depth, simply saying that they identified as Christians and the Christian faith in some way or another was part of their own persona publicly. wise. And so I think when you add all that together to me, it seems like it's fair to say, in some sense, you know, Germany was a Christian nation. There were pagans, and again, Fabricius notes this. There's interestingly, I got into a discussion with a guy on X recently who brought this up. And as we were into it, he, he mentioned the figures. He said, well, they started off at 1%, and then after so many years, they were 3%.

I thought, okay, so you got these pagans and they've gained 2%. All right, what's the rest of the country? What do they identify as? Again, granted by critics and condemers of the Third Reich, they identified as Christian. So I can't tell you all of what that means other than I believe certainly there were genuine Christians, and without doubt, there were nominal Christians or just kind of cultural Christians as well. And I think that has to factor into how we approach the subject. I realize it's hard for some people, because talking about the post-war consensus, the liberal mythos, everything's very charged and such.

But I think that we're seeing a lot of this starting to crumble in our day, and it's time to show some courage and some sanity and going back to the, primary sources in dealing honestly with what they say. moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs. When the doors open,

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How does he take the tenets of Protestant Christianity? He's arguing from a Lutheran standpoint, correct? As far as I'm aware, yes. Although he wrote for a journal entitled Presbyterian Isthmus. I'm still not quite sure how to parse through that one. Okay. How does he reconcile the tenets of national socialism with the tenets of Christianity? I mean, at least national socialism had an ethos, right?

It did, yes. A sort of martial spirit rejection of degeneracy, the imposition of order. The big, bad authoritarianism. Yeah. So he talks about liberalism, and he says, we reject this. It's this radical individualism. It's under social bonds. It takes actually religion out of the public. And he says, we reject this as Christians and as national socialists. He names Marxism as well. And he says, this is an enemy of both our German country and also our faith. And we unite with national socialism in opposing it. It's

a common thread you'll see with these guys as you start to read them. They name liberalism, Marxism, often then Jewish materialism or materialism, and then mammonism. And they kind of see all of these as going together. And if you've read some other national socialists like Richard Walter Darry, he says that liberalism and Marxism are kind of like twins. They just, they get to the same end. They just approach it in different ways. I think he's got a point there. And it seems to me that Fabrizius himself saw that and rejected it. He also talks about, for instance, the harmonious relationship between humility and heroism. And so in modern Christianity, which is regardless really of whatever tradition you're in, has been kind of infiltrated and vitiated

from the inside out, we tend to oppose those two things. We think, well, to be humble is to not be heroic. You don't go out there and dare and be bold and try to take ground. You kind of recede. If you're a Protestant, you might be aware of Timothy Keller and his kind of public persona. Guy is a complete joke. He basically considered like being a faithful Christian in the public meant you got there and you pull your pants down and you spank your own butt in front of everybody. And yeah, you're great. Fabricius completely rejects this. What he sees is that there's a relationship harmonious between humility and heroism that they go together. And so he's trying to synthesize instead of dichotomize,

which is what we see so often today. These people, they abuse Christian doctrines, sentiment, virtue all the time for whether it's liberal ends or egalitarian ends, whatever the case may be. For example, people bring up Galatians 328 all the time. There's neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female. they just go to all these wild places, basically egalitarianism. It seems to me that Fabricius basically rejects this.

And he's behind Adolf Hitler, 100%, and in his opinion, Adolf Hitler is basically sent of God to renew the German nation. And you understand the historical context. Everything happened in World War I, then afterward, and then Treaty of Versailles and the rape, and then Weimar. You can understand this. You can sympathize. These people wanted their nation back. And, you know, some of these German Christians talk about their best men in World War I were Christians, you know, and that they fought bravely. So you read this again.

And Joachim Hassenfeld or another prominent German Christian. Yeah, the Marxism and liberalism, I read, I've read on my show, Rizard Lagutko's demon and democracy, and he does a really good job in a short period of time of just basically showing how they're, the open-endedness of it, the fact that there is no, they don't really have a foundation in anything solid and anything historic, just basically lends themselves to being so much alike that liberalism will eventually lead to the other. because it's just the only way liberalism is going to be able to survive and protect itself as by becoming a authoritarian form of itself.

And that's what Marxism is. That's what communism is. And, yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious when you look at what the radicals and the revolutionaries in Russia were calling for from the 1890s to 1910. I mean, a lot of them were calling themselves liberals, and a lot of them were seeking to unleash the bonds of the Tsar so that they could have more freedom and they could do as they wish. And we saw exactly what that led to.

So people who don't, people just don't realize that because most people, people in what is we still try to call the West, and especially in the United States, is they're liberals. I mean, you know, your average MAGA voter, even if they will deny it 100%, they're liberals. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I've heard men also suggest that Woke was kind of a natural development in some sense out of liberalism. I think perhaps they've got a point. I mean, I see liberalism in a similar way that Fabricius talks about. It's this radical individualism. So it doesn't really have a conception of collective solidarity.

And, I mean, that's part of what national socialism was all about. And we can have that today just so long as it's, you know, anti-white. Right. Yeah. I mean, you can have, you can have any. ethnic enclave you want as long as it's the right skin color. And that skin color is definitely not anybody from the European continent. Right.

Yeah, you can have ethno-nationalism for everybody. Everybody except this one unique particular group. It's interesting how that works. I wanted to see if we can move on to the 28th thesis here, because that's probably a, it's very interesting to, me because just check my notes here, check my notes here. The reason you, I think you assume that he's Lutheran is because basically the 28 theses seem to almost root themselves in Luther.

So can we talk a little bit about the 28 thesis and what the, I mean, when people come up with a list like this, or they come up with a confessional, or they come up with a catechism, there's a purpose behind it. There's a, you're seeking to say, this is what we believe, and do not go outside, go outside of these boundaries, or else you're outside of the, you're outside of the church, say. So what's, what's the purpose of the, of these 28 thesis? Yeah, the 20theses are not meant to be a universal, timeless confession of faith. If you read Fabrizius and other German Christians in their own words, that is clear as day.

In fact, this is something that Fabrizius takes that pastor's emergency league to task on is he says, my brothers, he calls them brothers. He says, you've basically treated our theses as if it's meant to be a comprehensive confession of faith or it's meant to supplant standard Orthodox, historic confessions of faith. And he says, that is not what this is, not at all. He basically says this is a particular document which we are crafting in relation to our present moment. So it's particularity is not universalism, but not necessarily going to the Bible and deducing there from all the doctrines that every Christian in every place at all times need to believe.

No, they're dealing with their particular situation there in 20th century Germany. So it touches on things like the church and the state. It touches on the proclamation of the church, the foundations of the church, the foundations of church, the path of the church. So in the book, the total volume, I've got Corey Mahler's translation in his notes. We've also got Fabricius's answer to the pastor's league and then Grunman himself, who authored them. So you can read the three and get a sense of what they're all about, but basically they're dealing with how are we supposed to conceive of the church? in relation to all of these things that have now been raised and forced upon us,

whether we're talking about our present political situation, or we're talking about the question of race. How does that interface with these things? So they discuss, if I'm not mistaken, the Aryan paragraph. They discuss, for instance, what they can see. of in terms of a Christian in their race. So I'll just read an excerpt here from the church in the state section. It says a people's church does not mean excluding Christians of other race. Excuse me. I've got a bit of a cold. Does not mean excluding Christians of other races from

word and sacrament or from the great Christian community of faith. A Christian of another race is not a lesser Christian, but rather a Christian of a different kind. Thus, the People's Church takes seriously that the Christian Church does not yet live in the perfection of divine eternity, but is bound by the orders God has given to this life. So the orders, I think the German is ordnung. So it's an interesting German word. would consider there are distinct orders of life such as the family and then the nation. So what they're saying is that the nation or the race in this instance is a distinct order of life

given by God in his wisdom and his providence. We need to recognize that. But you don't see some sort of harsh racial supremacy. theory here. In fact, they head that often, they say, Christian of another race is not a lesser Christian, rather a Christian of a different kind. So they're just recognizing there are differences. So Christians, for instance, in Japan or in China, they're not necessarily like you and I, to the extent that there are Christians in Africa, they're not necessarily like you or I. even black people here in America that are Christians.

Often they've got their own distinct churches. And I think that that's natural. That's fine. That's just a modern sort of analog. And Fabricius is speaking to similar dynamic as they're facing it in all the particularities there in Germany at the time. So it also talks about, for instance, the Old Testament.

So this is part three of the foundations of the church. It says the Old Testament does not have the same value as the New Testament. The specifically Jewish national morality and national religion have been superseded. The Old Testament remains important because it records the history and decline of a people that repeatedly separated. itself from God despite his revelation. The prophets of God show us all. The position of a nation relative to God is decisive for its fate in history. It makes further comments about the apostasy of the Jews and then the culmination of their sin in the crucifixion of Christ. He's not saying throw out the Old Testament. Now this is a common slander that I've found that people will make

against the German Christians and the 28theses. It's not Marcian. It's not affirming that heresy. And if you read, again, Fabricius in his totality, you will see that. I mean, my read, and I've got a solid grasp on theology, I've spent quite a bit of time studying it over the years. My read is that what they're saying with the Old Testament here is very close to, if not the same as what can be found enshrined in

basically the premier Protestant Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith, when it speaks of the body politic of the Jews and the ceremonial law, basically says that that has been abrogated or an null that's been canceled. And so with the coming of Christ, his incarnation, his death, his resurrection, ascension, you had the putting away of the ceremonial law because it was a shadow or a picture that was pointing forward to Christ to come in time and in history to perform the work of redemption. And so, in that sense, all of the peculiarities of the Old Testament religion and the covenant thereof have faded because they were only for a particular time until the Messiah came. And it seems to me that they're saying, again, the German Christians are saying something

very similar, if not the same as that. Noting the Jewish particularity in saying, this no longer abides for us as Christians. So, for instance, we don't follow the dietary laws. We don't follow the feast day schedule and all of that. In fact, it's not, you know, it's considered heterodox to try to enforce that on Christians now. Because we have liberty, the church has entered into its age of maturity. So those are just a few examples.

There's more than that. They talk about Christ and his Jewish identity. I don't, again, sense that they ever deny that Christ was Jewish in any way. But what I sense is that they reject the framing of some of their opponents in the way that those opponents use the Jewishness of Christ against the German Christians, probably to oppose the German Christians in their stance against their anti-Judaism stance and their stance against Jewish materialism.

Not unlike today. I mean, really, I've seen the same thing. People, you start raising a critique about this group, and lo and behold, you get Christians trot out and say, oh, should you know that Jesus, was Jewish as if anyone is denying that, that somehow means we can't make critiques. Or the pagans are calling you a Christ cuck. Yeah, you got to deal with those guys too.

Yeah. They're so funny. It's like, okay, so you're a pagan. Why are you against Zionism? Yeah, and also, like, you want, do you want to, like, reclaim the West? Okay, come on. And you want to throw out Christianity? Right, because, yeah, because.

Yeah, because paganism built the West. That's great, yeah. So let me go over a couple here. So like theses 22 to 24, the cross and resurrection are central with Christ overcoming guilt, fate, and death. It's sort of parallels the sacrificial ethos of national socialism. When it says overcoming guilt, here's something. that you can get, you can say, oh, okay, you know, sure, I'll even accept that these were Christians, that, you know, people who are fighting in the Veramac who were in the SS,

they were Christians, but there are obviously antonomians. So, you know, why should we, we should judge it, we can judge that they're not Christians because they're obviously antonomians. They don't believe in the law. Look at everything that they did. So you're asking, what were my response to the? that be? Yeah. Yeah, I would say prove it. Where's the, where's the evidence for that claim? In what way were they were they anti-nominion? Are we saying that because they were in the war, they were antinomian? I mean, that doesn't make much sense to me. It can be a perfectly good work and even a work of faith to go to war. I mean, Hebrews 11 talks about this, that by faith,

some saints conquered kingdoms and put armies to flight. One of my favorite reformers, reformer Henry Bollinger talks about this and he actually indicts people whoever would try to abuse faith and spirituality against natural things like loving your own your kin and countrymen and defending your country when under threat. He says, you know, these people are dainty fools and effeminate hearts. So if they mean they went to war their antinomian, saying, no, that's not antinomian. I mean, antinomian is, in my mind, it's, you're against the law. That's what, that's the etymology of that word, anti-nomos, that means you don't obey the moral law. You don't obey God. You don't keep the Ten Commandments. Of course, we don't believe anyone can keep them perfectly,

even after you're saved, but we do believe once you're saved, you've been given a special power by the Holy Spirit. At least I'll speak for myself as what I believe as a Protestant, that you're given the Holy Spirit to obey the Lord and to keep his law. Even then you're not going to do it perfectly. So I would have to know what they, what they mean by that. I mean, yeah, it just sounds like a weird objection to me. Well, when you listen to Christians today, and I don't care if they're Protestant or Catholic, like myself, the arguments make no sense whatsoever, you know, as a Catholic and more of a medievalist, I mean, I understand why you go to war. I'm never going to apologize for the Crusades.

I'm never going to apologize for the Inquisition. These were things that had to be done, and they were done. And they made, these are things that helped to make the West. So I'm not, yeah, I'm not apologizing for them. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I'm not an evangelical. I'm a classic Protestant, magisterial Protestant. We actually have a lot in common in terms of civilizational emphasis when you look at the history of that.

Have you ever read Raymond Ibrahim, Defenders of the West, Sword and Sematar on the Crusades? No, but I've heard him interviewed and I definitely want to, I need to get to that book, yeah. Yeah, I like it. I like, I've read that, Defenders of the West. So I'm with you on that. great case. He says that these were defensive wars, the crusades, and that, you know, radical Muslim incursions in the wickedness of these Muslims. He says, that's what the crusades largely were in response to that. How would you answer the question? How do you think it goes along

with the 28th thesis and the book Positive Christianity about like just like the Nuremberg laws? and the, what seems like blatant anti-Semitism in Jewish policy, in German policy and in German practice. I mean, I know how to answer these things. I'm asking you these questions because these are the kind of questions that people will, you know, people want to ask you. Yeah, so you're saying how would they, how would the Christians, the German Christians of time justify their anti-Semitic or anti-Judeic stance.

Yeah. And like saying, oh, well, Jews can't even, you know, according to how much, what percentage you are of a Jew, you can't even be a citizen, much less teach university, things like that. Hmm. Well, on that latter point, I would say, if you go look at, there's laws and it. America. You can find similar kind of laws, anti-miscegenation laws, for instance, immigration restriction laws. Some people don't know this. Virginia had a law on the books, but they're 1906, where they said, as regarding immigration, upon Anglo-Saxon supremacy, their words,

depends the health of our commonwealth. You look at North Carolina. It's a same time. They're talking about Anglo-Saxons, Celtics, Tatonics. So they were race-conscious, if you will, or ethnicity-conscious. However you want to term this. And that informed not only their political identity as states, but they're from the restrictions that they placed on who could and could not come into their states and have citizenship. I mean, this is kind of standard. political theory, once you get out of the madness of kind of the post-World War II establishment and the civil rights regime revolution that's been voiced upon us, all this nonsense.

As far as the German Christians and anti-Semitism go, I mean, they would justify it on all sorts of grounds. And they would say that these people are alien to us. Look at their spirit. Look at the productions that they make, whether in art or in media or in academia. And they would say, this is alien to us, it's foreign to us, and we want solidarity. We want a strong national, collective identity. And part of procuring that for ourselves means we need to deal with these people who are in here. that includes some of these laws.

Now, you can say, well, they were used to justify this and that and all these other evil things. Fine, but you need to distinguish between the principle and then the application thereof. Just because an application maybe went awry here or there in your estimation doesn't mean the principle itself is fundamentally mistaken. They would also root it in their broader historic identity, as many of them did, whether Christians or not, going back to Martin Luther in his treatise on the Jews and their lies, among other things that he said. The Luther, he's not really an outlier when you start digging historically into these things in the Western and the Christian tradition. There's actually a very robust, if we could so speak, anti-Judaic strain. in Christianity and in the Western tradition among different, even different denominations

or different traditions, whether you're talking about Roman Catholic or Protestant. Even in the 19th century, you had ongoing discussions about the Jewish question, even from Jews themselves. So Lord willing with Sacra Press, we're going to be published two books together, well, really three books.

So two of those books are by Carl Friedrich. Hamann, 19th century German Jewish Protestant, and he wrote on the Jewish question. And in his first book, he says as a Jew on this topic that many times throughout

history, actually the Jews have brought the repercussions upon themselves because of the ways that they act, how hostile they are when they get into these distinct national communities. And he's just honest about it. He's also in ways sympathetic

with them. And then in his second book, this is some years later, especially as Zionism has begun to take off, he's much more sympathetic to them and has very high hopes for what they're going to be able to do. And he thinks that the only way to solve the Jewish question is for Jews to solve it themselves and, of course, to take Palestine and all this. And historically, you can study that and figure out how that went. I don't think it went very well. Then the other book is by Gerhard Keitel, he was, he came later in the 20th century, he was actually a national socialist himself. And he deals with the question. It's quite kind of clinical, really. Some people have misread him because he raises as just a hypothetical possibility. The one one way to deal with

is extermination, but he doesn't at all entertain it as a viable or a moral possibility whatsoever. You can read that. That will be Lord willing published before the end of the year by Sacher Press. But I raised it just to say that you had this discussion going on. I raised earlier Paul Delegarde and the two Adoffs. This was the discussion they were having in the 19th century such that the term anti-Semitism didn't come with all the baggage that it now has to us, you know, over a century and a half later.

For them, this was just a pressing political question that they were debating and trying to understand. and you understand the wider historical context as well. You have all the nationalist fervor going on in different places. And then, you know, kind of simultaneous to that a little bit, you've got the development of Zionism. And so what does this do? This inevitably creates these problems. And when, you know, the Germans are over here and they are crafting and accumulating a distinct

German identity. and then you've got Jews who themselves are not really falling in line with that and are kind of opposing it in different ways, that's naturally, sociologically speaking, and politically speaking, it's just going to create some sort of clash, and they're going to have to deal with it. It's just what you do is natural. So that's how I'd answer that question about how they did it.

I mean, there was also theological justification and other things, but it was a discussion that had been going on for decades, really. Some people think National Socialism, Adolf Hitler, just ex-Nehillo appeared. No, they're really the culmination from what I've read thus far of decades of this sort of thing. Yeah, we're reading today in 200 years together by Solzhenice, and it was talking about how during one of the, one of the quote-unquote programs, or which are, when you start studying the history of that, you just, you can't believe just how they've been, the lies that have come out of that.

How in one of them, the people actually knew where the car rights lived and left them and like didn't destroy their house, didn't break windows in their houses, didn't destroy their businesses. they were actually able to distinguish between, you know, what we would say are the Talmudist Jews and the Karaites who completely rejected that. And normally were persecuted by the Talmudists openly. So, yeah, the whole idea that this wasn't a discussion. And then you can just go to newspapers and newspapers all around. around the world in the 1920s.

And the JQ is openly discussed being written about, books are being written about it. Jews are writing books about it. I mean, Mory Samuels, you Gentiles, is, I mean, one of the best treaties on it. And people are like, oh, well, who was he? And it's like, then you go back in your research. It's like, that was one of the biggest books in the Jewish community around the, you know, especially in the West at the time. and so, you know, this whole, oh, anti-s, it's just anti-Semitism, and you have people like Pinsker

writing, oh, well, I mean, there's no way we can deal with this other than extermination because it's hereditary. So we have to do something about these people because it's hereditary over the centuries. And it's just like, all right, well, I mean, I don't know if he went so far as to say extermination, but I mean, if it's hereditary and it's incurable, what are, what is other answer then. You know, so yeah, just the fact that it's one of those things where basically this happened 100 years ago. We're talking about 100 years ago and people are living in a world and a society and something that isn't even the West anymore that has completely been brainwashed and brainwashed.

probably the best term, but been so indoctrinated that this is the unpardonable sin. That anti-Semitism is the unpardonable sin. They have to project that backwards to everyone in history who's ever had the question or asked the question and make that be that these people were, they broke the unpartainable sins. So there's no way they could have been Christians. there is no way they there's no one of them are in heaven it's it's it's the same thing i apologize it's the same thing a lot of protestants a lot of protestants would have you believe no one went to

heaven in the first 1500 years of the church the way a lot of them talk i don't say that i know you i figure you didn't those guys are but um yeah yeah but the um but but that's basically what it is is you're looking back and you're judging people upon the value. And then you'll be like, oh, and then people will be like, oh, well, you know, 200 years ago, slavery was, you know, was accepted. And it's like slavery, slavery has been accepted for 99.9% of humanity. Yeah, and if you read the Bible, it's actually God never commands anything against it. He never forbids it. He regulates it. And in some instances, there's a form of slavery that is intended as a form of mercy

for certain poor individuals. Yeah, I mean, there's one book that's basically saying, telling a slave to go back to his master. Yeah, Philemon, you're right, yep. Yeah, it's like, okay, well, what do we do with this? So then I guess they have to dismiss Christianity. That's one way to dismiss Christianity as just being completely immoral because that's not even the Old Testament.

That's the New Testament, Cody. Yeah, right? I would say, you know, that's because they've swallowed the new modern religion. It's, what do you call it? Liberalism, egalitarianism. It's just this ugly, unnatural view of man and of the world and the flattening of everything. It's not just a boy can be a girl, a girl could be a boy. It's that nobody can be great and everything is bad.

And everybody who is great needs to be torn down. You know, tear down Robert Ely statue and all this thing. It's a revolutionary spirit, and it's from Satan. So let's finish up with this. I don't want to keep you very long, and we'll keep it open for you to come back in the future, because I know you're, it's nice of you to be able to do this, considering you sound like hell. Oh, I'm happy to be here. I feel okay.

I just sound weird. I've got this congestion. But, um, so. So if 95% of Germany is Christian and Adolf Hitler is the, I mean, Thomas 777 says this all the time. It says, the German people weren't really that in love with the National Socialists, but they loved Adolf Hitler. So if all of these Christians, you know, looking back through the lens of our day, if all of these Christians, if all of these Christians, 95% of the country loved Adolf Hitler. I mean, what should that tell us?

How should we interpret that? How should we look at that historically? Yeah. I mean, that's really the question of the day, is it not? Because Adolf Hitler, in many people's minds, is worse than Satan? It really is. if they're ever going to try to make some kind of moral evaluation about a person and they're trying to find the most extreme version of something that's evil they will cite adolf hitler they've likened trump to adolf hitler in part i think to try to get him assassinated and then of course what's the justification for so many wars oh you know this person's the new hitler Putin's the new hitler it's it's fascism it's the Nazis again and again So one of the things it needs to tell us is that history can take on a mythological status,

where it has a moral mythological weight, such that you can invoke persons or terms such as Nazi. And they're like heresies. And if you brand them upon someone, it's meant to say they're beyond redemption. So, for instance, when it came out that I was publishing this book, there's some Christians who made a big stir about it on X. And one of these guys said, oh, you're a pro, you're pro, Hitler. Cody is a pro-Hitler, pro-Third Reich publisher and all this. And there was one man who published a screenshot of the book, another man in 47 minutes says you can find the deeply heretical text here. He linked it to archive.org. I have pressed this man for 10 plus months now. Substantiate that charge. Substantiate that its heresy. I dare you show one thing from the

book. You found the book. You're resourceful. But you can't even substantiate this charge. He's refused. and that's a case example of what's going on. People's minds have been captured such that they think it is the height of moral virtue to condemn Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. We don't do this with any other historical event. People weren't going back to the Civil War or the war between the states, if you prefer, and summoning it in this way. Sometimes, yeah, they'll go back there,

but it does not at all approach the level of intensity that World War II does. They're not going back to Napoleon. They're not going back to Titus when he slew over a million Jews. And I believe that was actually the judgment, the incarnate judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the Jews,

the events leading up to 80-70 for their extreme wickedness and degeneracy and their rejection of the gospel, after you've been patient with them for centuries. You look at it that way. You say, actually, God has probably killed or Jews as anybody else in history. Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Romans, and then other temporal judgments that have taken place. So our whole religious and moral imagination has been refactored in the West so that this is a load-bearing myth, as Daryl Cooper says.

And in my opinion, it has to come crashing down. I think in part it already kind of is. It made different ways. There are people with platforms such as yourself and even others who are talking about all. these sorts of things, you know, these zoomers that are watching Adolf Hitler speeches in English on TikTok or whatever, there's no stopping this. I think it was Sam Francis himself back in the 90s when asked, you know, how do we advance out of this problem that we're in? He says he thinks basically the internet is going to be the only way that we're going to do it.

I think he's prescient. He's right. And that's part of why I'm publishing the book. So in terms of evaluation of people what they claim about Hitler, look, you got liberals who are saying this, okay? It's not the guy who shaved his head and is out there with a hooked cross or, as people call it, a swastika, you know, screaming in a megaphone who is saying, Adolf Hitler is a Christian. I mean, there may be guys out there like that. I don't know. I'm talking about Jewish academic liberals like Susanna Heschel are saying these things. And they're saying these things having gone back to primary sources. These two books here, A Church Undone by Mary Solberg. It's got a bunch of the documents from the German Christians that she's compiled.

And then this book, The Holy Reich by Richard Stigman-Gall. I think Richard is Jewish. I'm not sure if Mary is or not, although Berg makes you think probably so. Anyway, you read what they say, they're saying there's definitely a Christian element to this. And then you read these German Christians in their own words again and again. They all seem to highly esteem love and honor Adolf Hitler. And from what I've read, they all regarded him as some sort of a Christian. And I've read his speeches. It's clear he says it all the time he mentions God, Lord God, Providence, Almighty God. He even says Christ is His Lord and Savior. I understand there are disputes about other things that he said.

Okay, granted, fine. But I look at that, I think it's hard for me to just say that means nothing. At the very least, I think you have to grant from the actual sources that Hitler at least said in ways he was a Christian and said it enough and performed deeds such that other. Christians thought he was a Christian. You don't have to accept that. You don't have to like that whatever. I don't really care what you personally do with it other than you just say that's true. That's what the sources actually say. If you can at least start there, I think that's a great place to start. We don't start lighting our hair on fire and going crazy and saying neo-Nazi, you know, all this nonsense. Let's just look and see what it said. Why can't we be?

just be due justice about this. Why do we have to treat this as a touchstone for whether a person should live or die? It's insanely. We can't keep living like this. It's time to move on. That's how I'd respond. Yeah, this is just the subject. And I think Jarrell Cooper making his comment about Churchill on Tucker's show should be all the evidence anyone needs to know is that. that this is a religion. It's, it's, it's, it's sought to replace Christianity in the West. Yep. And if you, you know, there are, there will, there are people who will tell you, if you do not denounce, you know, Adolf Hitler and, and, and the Third Reich, and you, you can't be a Christian. So it's actually, it's actually part of, it's become part of, the, the confessional.

Yep. of a lot of Western Christians, quote unquote, Western. Yeah, it's like a profession of faith. Condemned, denounce the Nazis, and Adolf Hitler, and make sure you affirm this other thing that we always have to keep bringing up. That's what it is. It's insanity. Again, it's capture our moral imagination.

So I wrote a little bit about this. I'll say this last thing. On the Sacra Press blog, when I got a lot of blowback, when people saw I was publishing the book, the article is called why I publish positive Christianity in the Third Reich, part one, five parameters. I give

five reasons for why I published it. Historical, political, narratival, which is kind of like the adjective form of narrative. Moral, and then the other one is failing me now. And in the narratival section, I talk about this.

I say that this whole thing, this, I call it a mythos. it is like the salvation and judgment of the West. Just like how the Israelites looked back to the Exodus constantly, as this constitutive crisis and emancipation from which they just derived all their meaning as a people, and then also all sorts of moral imperatives. And then throughout their history, they'd constantly, you know, kind of resummon this or re-conjure this. You see this in the Psalms repeatedly.

They're hearkening back to the Exodus. It's a similar thing with World War II for us in the West. West. It's like that's our justification for being. And you start digging into some of these primary sources. And from my perspective, you'd just say, I'm not sure if this should be. You look at some of these people, they thought people that joined the German, the Vermeck, even those outside of Germany, you know, like the V&V, what's his name, Stoff de Clerk or whatever, these people regarded themselves first they were as Christians and second as defending Christendom that's what some of them literally regarded themselves as doing especially with the

threat of Bolshevism and the Soviets and such again I'm not saying you have to now adopt that is your new religion I'm not saying that I'm just saying that's that's the history when were we told this I was never told these things not even close I was never told Germany was 95% Christian or at least identified that way or that there were Protestants enthusiastically supportive of Adolf Hitler. Never told any of this. I think these things have to be published. It's got to get out there. You've got to get the truth out there to dispel the lies and even the mythos itself.

What do you do after that is a separate question because you still need some sort of religious glue that holds you together. Obviously as a Christian, I think that it has to be Christ and Christianity. I'm not sure what that would look like anew though in replacing this false religion. Yeah. I think the first thing we have to do is just destroy that myth. And that's pretty much what I've been working on. And believe it or not, there are people out there who people would not believe also realize that and they realize that the myth of World War II is even if they don't like the Third Reich or think that Germany that you know Germany should have won the war or anything like that they understand that the myth behind it needs to be destroyed if we're

going to go forward as a country it mean it's basically held us hostage and occupied us since the war. Exactly right. Occupation. Yeah, occupation has to be broken. Until that occupation is broken, we can't even begin to discuss what the future looks like. We can make plans, but we can, but really what it's going to, I guess the question would be what it's going to look like after that, but that's for a whole other project I do. Yeah, that is the question. I agree with you 100%. I call it a straight jacket and we have to break out of it.

And that means breaking the myth. However you do that, you know, you can invert it. Some people seem to think that's a good idea. I'm not necessarily going to starkly oppose them. Other people think you can ignore it. I think that's naive. There's no way I don't think you can really ignore it. And then other people think maybe you could replace it.

But I'm not sure I had going to replace it without. first getting it out of the way somehow. Yeah, it has, people have to be willing to move it aside in order to replace it with something else. So remind everybody where they can find the book and the rest of your work. Yeah, you can find the book at sacrapress.com, S-A-C-R-A-P-P-S-A-R-A-P-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R- It's available for pre-order right now. If you pre-order, you will get a free PDF-C-F-E.

at release in addition to your physical paperback copy. As well, if you pre-order, you will be automatically entered into a book giveaway. So we've got four books to give away. We have three copies of, in his own words, the essential speeches of Adolf Hitler by our friends at Antelope Hill. And then we've got one copy. It's two volumes of Mind Kampf by Clemens and Blair, the new translation by Timothy Dalton in Hardback, give away. We're thankful that both of these publishers partnered with us in that way. There are other books available as well. And for your audience, we have a special discount code. It's Pete Q, P-E-T-E-Q.

All caps. Use that code at checkout for a discount. I just want to say thanks, Pete, for having me on. Big fan of your show. I've been listening since last year. Plan to keep on listening. probably top three podcast for me. I recommend it to my friends all the time. It's been an honor. I appreciate it, Cody. Thank you very much. And I'll make sure to link to all of that and especially the code.

Thank you. Have a good night. Take care. You too.