The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1226: Continental Philosophy and Its Origins - Pt. 8 - Hugo Grotius w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

65 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas continues a series on the subject of Continental Philosophy, which focuses on history, culture, and society. In this episode he talks about Machiavelli.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon, and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers. Cooper.

Design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen, Financial Services, Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings?

We'll mark your calendars from November 28th to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs. When the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November.

Lidl, more to value. Discover five-star luxury at Trump Dunebeg. Unwind in our luxurious spa. Savour sumptuous farm-fresh dining. Relax in our exquisite accommodations. Step outside and be captivated by the wild Atlantic surrounds. Your five-star getaway, where every detail is designed with you in mind. Give the gift of a unique experience this Christmas,

with vouchers from Trump Dunebeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Doonbiog, Kus Faragea. If you want to get the show early and ad-free, head on over to the piquinez Show.com. There you can choose from where you wish to support me. Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me about this,

even though I think on the last ad, I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed, you're going to have to subscribe your substack, or through Patreon. You can also subscribe on my website, which is right there, gumroad, and what's the other one? Subscribe Star. And if you do that, you will get access to the audio file.

So head on over to the Picanuos Show.com. You'll see all the ways that you can support me there. And I just want to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can put out the amount of material that I do. I can do what I'm doing with Dr. Johnson on 200 years together and everything else. The things that Thomas and I are doing together on Continental Philosophy, it's all because of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank you enough. So thank you.

The Pekingona Show.com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekignano Show. Thomas is back and we will continue the series on Continental Philosophy. How are you doing, Thomas? I'm doing pretty well. I slept a little late today because my sleep schedule screwed up, but I feel well prepared. But if it seems short, that's why.

So forgive me for that. So it's kind of a hectic week. Thankfully, I feel a lot better. But I'm still fighting some fatigue and stuff. I read up, I study a lot on Grotius, the legal theorist, you know, and he was active about 20 years before Hobbs. And Hobbs is something of a counterpart to Grotius, although Grotius rejected the idea that he himself was in the mold of an Aristotelian political theorist. And he rejected outright the idea of a political science. And that's important.

And Grotus really, everybody from Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. to H.L.A. Hart. And I would argue even these law and economics types, their spiritual forbear is Grotius. And Grotius is the father of legal positivism, as we know it. there's a lot of capital l liberals who like to claim that the idea of a natural right accruing in all humans to certain protections at law and things of this nature derived from grotius i think that's misguided for a lot of reasons grotis was he was in hostile dialogue with the concept of natural law and for complicated reasons. But anybody who picks up Grotius, the law of war and peace, which is as magnum opus,

we'll notice too that Carl Schmidt owes a debt to Grotius. And there's something peculiar in America, because in the one hand, I mean, I'm convinced the American judiciary is quite, literally a pository of abject mediocrities. I think a lot of these people don't have any meaningful understanding of the law. Like, I really don't. That's not just because I have a not flattering view of people in government. I mean they're conceptual illiterate. Like the conceptual syntax of the law, which is pretty complicated at base. They just don't understand it. And I think that's going to become

clear. I know a lot of people don't accept that, but if you know what to look for, in reading these opinions, and now from the federal bench, it's not just that they're ideologues who enjoy opportunity to pontificate. The reason why they read, like, sociological

screeds or, like, essays, it's because these people don't understand legal reasoning, so they're not really capable of rendering political opinions. You know, because it's it's like somebody who who can't master high school algebra

holding forth on as an MIT lecturer in like advanced, you know, theoretical math or something. You know. But there's this peculiar tendency in America to act like there's some sort of, something like sacrosanct about the law.

And I think that's frankly a highly semitic tendency. That's about outside the scope of what we're talking about here. but what they but the people who propose these kinds of things they invoke kind of like a bastardized legal positivism to shore it up you know and then they they claim that they reject uh quote unquote religious rationalizations for rights based paradigms and things but you know you can't you can't claim to be a secularist and then invoke natural law it doesn't work that way you know and you can't claim that the judiciary is somehow sacrosanct, we've all got to like take a knee before it because the law is a sacred thing while acknowledging that legal positivism is basically an empirical and pragmatic enterprise. And that's one of the contradictions I think that is going to prove fatal to this increasingly decrepit ideological consensus

that's reigns since 1933. I mean, I see it's happening all over the place because it just it doesn't have a leg to stand on in terms of precedent. And it's, when you're talking about a body of law and the theoretical foundations of it,

you can't rely on a tautology. You know, um, for reasons. that some of which are obvious and some maybe not so obvious but you know this isn't this isn't a a superficial thing that uh it's got a new laptop I'm still kind of figuring out I'm sorry let me I'm trying to open this fucking window there we go um but yeah the law the law of war in peace of Grotius was most active and um

the early 17th century he was born in 1583 and yeah his the law of war in peace was his uh most significant work and again this preceded this preceded hobbs's body of work by about 20 years um now to be clear too like grodius he wasn't interested in in establishing a paradigm of or producing essential treaties is simply on positive law. It's not limited exclusively to the law of nations or what we'd consider international law in some rudimentary sense. But that is its central focus. the law of nations in grotius's opinion it derives from practical reason and it comes into existence

by way of consent to the body politic within you know the several states that constitute you know political structure between governments so there's an interconnectivity here that you know, has to be abided. So you can't talk about positive law in discrete terms, you know, that are categorically isolated from the systemic whole. The way to understand it is kind of like a statement of what the Romans would consider the public law, you know, the just publicum, you know, from the perspective of, of, of a science, if you will. Okay, but again, Grotius conspicuously distinguished as enterprise from that of Aristotle. You said there isn't a science of politics.

There's a science of a law wherein, you know, order can be imposed on political impulses, which are often pre-rational and although predictable and cyclical and, you know, arguably, conducted within parameters of bound irrationality, particularly at zenith of the expression of these impulses, which is the state of war, that doesn't mean that there's some underlying science

to political behavior, or the manner in which nations conduct each other in their efforts to survive and perpetuate their existence and capture power from their rivals. But you catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive. By design. They move you.

Even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon, and Teramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers. CUPRA, design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria.

Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Coupra Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast.

Come see for yourself. The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. Discover five-star luxury at Trump Dunebeg. Unwind in our luxurious spa. Savour sumptuous farm-fresh dining. Relax in our exquisite accommodations.

Step outside and be captivated by the wild Atlantic surrounds. Your five-fifference. star getaway where every detail is designed with you in mind. Give the gift of a unique experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump-Dunbeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Thunbiog, Kush Farage. The law, however, can be understood through, you know, the lens of a of a systemic science, you know, or that framework at least. Um, Grotius is the first thinker, as far as I know in the Western canon, who held himself out, held out his body of work as juristic, purely juristic, as opposed to a philosophical or theological treatment of politics. And the law of war on peace, it kicked off this entire body of work in Western Europe that dealt with treaties.

on the public law, the laws of nations. And this tendency kicked off, you know, again, in the 16th century. And really continued until, you know, the end of the 18th century. And that's really interesting. There's a significance there. And it's not just the fact of, you know, the century leading up to the 30 years of war was very anarchic

but there's some there's like an apocal significance in terms of the development of Europe's intellectual heritage that you know it is the reason for this I'm convinced you know it's something that would require a way

a way more thorough investigation but uh the central premise of the law of war peace and Grotius's entire body of work is the idea that man is by nature

a rational and social animal okay that doesn't mean that everything man does is derived from rationality and again he acknowledges that politics often is derivative of pre-rational impulses

but man is capable of a reason and that's what distinguishes him from beasts of the field and ultimately, you know, man is most expedient in looking after what's going to guarantee his own self-preservation. Okay. And this is a point, too, that is echoed very much in Hobbs. Okay.

Almost certainly, Hobbs read a lot of Grotius, you know, different as they were in terms of their, suppositions on political ontology. But, you know, it's, Grotius conspicuously, too, he attacked the classical idea of conventionalism and classical natural right as distinguished from Thomas' natural rights, you know, which is basically Aristotelian model.

Which, as we got into an earlier episode, It suggests not just that it's a just positive component, the essential natures of different kinds of men, like what their station is, and what their potentialities are, what the potentialities are of their soul. You know, and this idea that convention, you know, justifies itself by its tendency to be perpetuated, you know, This is suggestive of, you know, institutions being the product of a preordained structure and things. Grotius rejects that, and interestingly, he attacks it in part in the form of a dialogue. and one of the recurring characters in his dialogue was Carniatis. Carniatis was he was the head of the Athenian Academy during what was called the Skeptical Period around the 150s BC.

And Grotius has Cornietes argue and plead the cases for and against, like, various tendencies that Grotius either wants to explicate or contrast with his conceptual paradigm or that he wants to attack outright and attempt to impeach. basically what you can derive from these dialogues is grodia is saying look all the law is these are these are these are rules that man is imposed upon himself collectively you know in in congress with the social organism of which he is a part for a reason that expediency and self-protection, you know, and yeah, from place to place and culture to culture and race to race, you know, laws vary, but there are certain commonalities that derive from that core rational impulse. And the law is the product of that capacity to reason, but that doesn't

mean that there is some law of nature, strictly speaking. You know, all men are impelled in Grotius' view by natural desires towards ends that are ultimately advantageous to themselves and are largely exclusivist. And yes, man is a social organism. And unless men are truly possessed a pure avarist and not. going to go out of their way as individuals to harm their fellows for just you know for for for its own sake but at the end of the day in grotius's paradigm these these consensus don't emerge that impose law upon the body politic or the social organism you know based upon some immutable natural law

that can be identified and divinated by either something like learned cast of jurists or by, you know, resort to pious reflection on, you know, the conscience of the inner witness, or by, you know, the study of scientific principles that, you know, seem to suggest a harmonious order to the universe, you know, be it physical properties or the metaphysical permutations of, you know, valued judgments and things. You know, consequently, there is no, there is no form, there is no justice that is natural to man. Other than, you know, remedies for social evils that derive from this capacity for higher, reason, you know, and man's ability to calculate those remedies in Congress with others, you know, as part of a social organism, you know, suggests that man is capable of higher purposes in his designs and plans. But again, you know, we're back to this impulse towards self-reveillance.

preservation and self-protection and the practical business of the governance in lieu of anarchy and reversion to savagery. We're not talking about identifying, you know, some godly or metaphysically present or epistemically prior, you know, body of knowledge or something that just adheres to some perfect concept of justice or something. You know, and like I said, what really jumps out of me is studying Grotius, and in the manuscript I'm writing right now, Grotius features rather large.

And I got turned on to Grotius before I went to law school. Not that anybody cares, but this for context. I started reading them when I was in undergrad, because I realized as I bumped up again and again against this kind of peculiar sort of bastard. claim that cloaked itself in the language of positive law, yet was returning to natural law arguments, but again, not ones that were familiar and precedented. You know, it's kind of like, what is? And I realized, well, it's, it's, it's an effort by, you know, liberals and progressives

and people with kind of utopian ideas that were common to the, to the New Deal era, and especially the post-war years, the, the, the, the, the, draw upon legalism and attempt to suggest a linear

heritage between themselves and you know the the progenitors of of

kind of modern legal theory which axiomatically leads to some you know any such person

trying to lay claim to grotius or lay claim to the man as his heir. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back.

We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Liddle, more to value.

You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon, and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2,000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers. Coopera, design that moves.

Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services, Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Discover five-star luxury at Trump Dunbeg. Unwind in our luxurious spa. Saver sumptuous farm-fresh dining. Relax in our exquisite accommodations. Step outside and be captivated by the Wild Atlantic Surounds. Your five-star getaway, where every detail is designed with you in mind. Give the gift. of a unique experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump Dunebeg.

Search Trump Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunebiog, Kush Farage. But yeah, so what jumped out to me first and foremost was, you know, this is Oleg Rindle Holmes and HLA Hart and that's, you know, where they, that's really great legal positives, or legal realists would, you know, that would be their starting point. So that's important. Interestingly, too, Grotius, he aimed to impeach stoicism as well as Epicureanism and a lot of his dialogues where Carniatis is like a main character. And that's not accidental.

Carniades was very heterodox. And he was an enemy of the stoics in intellectual terms, which was unusual, at least in the way he went about it. like to be clear like that the stoics technically fell in the skeptic camp even though even though they had some concept of like a monadic unity to reality that presumably contained at least an aspect of you know a will of the gods or a prime a metaphysical prime move on you know and obviously that that's at odds with a pure skepticism of the kind that had taken root of the academy, but it's a little outside the scope and its complexity, the argument I mean. But it's not an accident that Grotius suggested this setting and the characters that he did for these thought experiments. That's important. That's important. for context is what I mean but uh the but he also drew but he also took a lot from the stoics and I think that that's why Grotius another secondary reason why he

went out of his way to make much of the aspects of their ethical posture and and their ontological claims that he disagreed with. What Grotius did accept, again, men are in their natural state impelled really merely to preserve their own being, their own physical essence. This is distinguished from wanting to, seek pleasure and avoid pain. You know, you can train an animal to seek pleasure and avoid pain. Grotius isn't saying that man is basically a highly capable animal who's averse to one kind of

stimulus and favors another. That's not what he's saying. He's saying that from jump or from this, you know, beginning point, man's capable of conceptualizing what is going to preserve him himself and he's also capable of contemplating a posterity beyond himself whether it's his nation or his tribe or his direct lineage you know it's not it's not self-preservation in the basis most primitive sense i mean obviously that's a component of it but again this is derivative of man's nature as you know the exclusive uh beneficiary of of higher you know the capacity to reason and in a way that you know sets them apart from all their life forms and that's why he denies that this is the defining quality of man you know this might be the behavioral paradigm that gives rise to all theoretical structures that come to constitute

to, you know, the political and the juristic framework that makes the political possible. But, you know, these things derive from the capacity of reason. And that is what is the definitive quality of man. So simply stated, to Grotius, that kind of core original desire, or preserve one's natural physical constitution and guarantee one's posterity that's essentially a hardwired or instinctive or subconscious drive in man to realize its full nature and to grow and develop and continue to develop as a rational being capable of higher reason so the rational faculty is the essential quality of man and you know that that can be said to be the most

excellent and the highest of all the of all the original or natural desires or instincts or tendencies within man if another reason that it makes it makes all other human activity possible you know and it's this rational faculty which perceives justice as virtuous because justice makes it possible to live in society and living in society is the only way that this rational faculty and man's excellent and and and and higher nature can truly flue. flourish. You know, So Proteus is saying that the, the, the classical view as well as the Thomas view is backwards,

you know, in the way it describes, you know, the, the ontology of these things, as well as the metaphysics of, uh, of,

of virtue, you know, um, And this is a very novel argument, you know, and people who take notice, there's nothing in this that suggests some, like, equalitarian or, you know, remedial social justice in terms of equalizing tendencies. There's nothing like that in here because Grotius never made those claims. you know so this idea that as some early and even not so really progressives claimed that well you know grodius describing the essential nature of man like vesting in in the human being like qua the human being rather than suggesting that it vests in that human being stationed or that you know his function

you know be it a landlord or a father or patriarch or a slave or a king you know the idea of that essence that essential nature vesting in the human being independent of function see that that's that's the first suggestion of a progressive view of the human being and, you know, the dignity of the human being. That's nonsense. Nothing like that is being suggested. And again, anybody who claims that what they're doing is they're making a positivist argument while injecting these kinds of undefinable in concrete terms, you know, metaphysical characteristics into the human being

and suggesting that the substance of justice has to be the realization of the dignity of every human being, which seems to almost always entail some kind of wish fulfillment that, you know, doesn't really

have to do with, you know, capital S society or with improving upon the human being's moral character, you know, nor of perfecting the rationality of

the human being, which you think that somebody would consider paramount if they're a true humanist, but that I I'm not trying to rant about a tangential subject, but this is important because you'll find all kinds of treatments of grogius that

especially in the last 50 years that are kind of through the lens of people like either John Rawls or these kinds of bastardized them progressivist screeds and that are always trying to claim you know modern political theorists as their own. Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person.

So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4.Northwest. Employers, did you know you can now reward you and your staff with up to 1,500 euro and gift cards annually, completely tax-free. And even better, you can spread it over five different occasions. Now's the perfect time to try OptionsCard. OptionsCard is Ireland's brand-new multi-choice employee gift card packed with unique features that your staff will love.

It's simple to buy, easy to manage, and best of all, there are no extra fees or hidden catches. Visit OptionsCard.i.e. today. This Black Friday, game, stream and go full speed with one gig, Sky broadband. And watch unmissable shows like all her fault on Sky. These nice people killing you, John. And Ballad of a Small Player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I've made some mistakes.

Right, who hasn't? Get one gig Sky Broadband, Essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Our lowest ever price. Availability subject location, new customers only, 12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter, TV and broadband sold separately, terms apply for more infoes, sky. To bring it back, Grotius' description and his impeachment of the concept of natural right, as conventionally understood, that's the key to understanding since his conceptual paradigm. It's in relation to this conception of man as a rational and social animal that any, any any any any notion of right and any concept of political society or if you understood um right

and its primary meaning to grotius is that which is just you know and that which is just is that what facilitates you know society and the men finding society within a political organism. You know, so again, what's right is what is just, what is just, is what derives from practical reason.

And what derives from practical reason is the highest good because it's the most excellent human characteristic. And it's the most excellent human characteristic because it allows man to fully flourish and realize his exceptional potentiality as an organism. And what is unjust, thus, is anything that is in conflict with the nature of society between human beings who are endowed with the aforementioned higher reason. And interestingly, Grotius quotes Cicero and Seneca to shore up this statement.

I believe that's him invoking a kind of loose model of praxis, or something at least suggestive of that, less people dismiss these things as just axioms and posthalists about, you know, what can be identified as the good in kind of axiomatic terms. obviously to the great Roman statesman the natural attraction of mendus society and their ability to act in conformity with that instinctive attraction would be something very worthy of praise and discussion

I'm not enough of a Roman historian I'm not like a classicalist I know something about Doric Athens, but I'm not qualified enough to speak on why he chose Cicero and Seneca. Augustus Caesar probably would have been who I invoke, but again, I am not learned in the subject matter in a way that can substantiate that partial it. you know so practically speaking a crime is an act of injustice because it's destructive of trust generally within the social organism you know like for example if you steal from somebody you see if you steal what belongs to others it's not just you're not just harming that person and violating that person's trust and their fellow man you're undermining the basis of all trust and therefore of society and you're acting against

the natural order to which man belongs you know which in addition to being a pragmatic affair the structuring of this social organism in society. It also reflects man's capability towards the flourishing of his excellence. So really, all injustice is merely injustice. There's not some that's acceptable and some that's not. You know, basically any unjust act is as bad as any. other you know and this is this is what kind of eliminates the distinction between you know kind of civic morality and you know a true morality if you will

a lot of positive law here has subsequently made that distinction very enthusiastically and anyone who reads Grotis realizes that there is no such distinction in fact the court tenet is that that's an artificial paradigm you know or it's it's just an incorrect way of understanding what's under discussion um how we do it okay i was just checking on our time you know and similarly similarly you know the law of nature is such that it exists again not natural law, but the law of nature, the conditions that attach to things from which, you know, the social organism derives

in terms of its structure and, you know, the behavioral modes incumbent upon parties to it and things like that, the law of nature permits a person to kill somebody escaping with stolen property. You know, if, for example, it's not possible to otherwise recover that's stolen property. You know, but the reason why that's acceptable is because, again, it's not that, you know, property is so very important, and it's not because, you know, any, any, any individual man is permitted to desaciate some, some sort of instinct towards vengeance if somebody steals from

It's because, again, to commit a crime is to commit, is a due violence to the entire concept of trust and to threaten the totality of the enterprise. So any miscreant so disposed needs to be eliminated with extreme prejudice because it's not a matter of, because it's not a matter of individual rights. It's a matter of collective defense. And without the social organism and the laws that both derive from and facilitate it, no man's property, no man's life, no man's family is safe and can be secure. and that's the nature of justice in Grotius' paradigm. And that's, interestingly, there's a selective invocation of that reasoning in a somewhat perverse capacity

that traditionally invoked by enemies of the death penalty. That's an issue that's kind of falling off. I was thinking about this, forgive the tangent, but there's a dissentious. Florida is executing a huge amount of people lately. I think they've already executed seven people this year. And there's two more guys. There's two more condemned. The detainees and the Sanis just signed their death warrant, literally.

One of them is a particularly horrible and bizarre case. This guy committed this brazen rape and homicide of this poor lady. in a fairly public place. And, you know, it is definitely kind of a textbook case of what's euphemistically called special circumstances, which de juries are aggravating circumstances that permit the imposition of the capital liability. air grid operator of ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest we're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans our consultation closes on the 25th of november have your say online or in person so together we can create a more reliable sustainable electricity supply for your community find out more at airgrid dot i e fort slash northwest Employers, rewarding your staff? Why choose between a shop voucher or a spend anywhere card

when with Options Card you can have both. With Options Card, your team gets the best of both worlds. They can spend with Ireland's favourite retailers or choose a Spend Anywhere card. It's simple to buy and easy to manage. There are no hidden fees, it's easy to use and totally flexible. They can even re-gift or donate to a good cause. Make your awards more rewarding.

Visit OptionsCard. Today. he's got out of e-slash-beats. But in any event, what jumped out at me is this was in the national news cycle. I think probably more because people are kind of like a passing interest into Santis and the facts of this case are so horrible and lurid. But, you know, really until, I mean, you're a little older than me. You remember this too.

There used to be this really impassioned discussion and opposition to the death. penalty and that's really kind of gone away you know i don't it's just not something people really engage with anymore but traditionally there's this kind of egalitarian or not a um that yeah there's there's there's the egalitarian argument which is what's arbitrary and capricious who gets executed but then there's uh they they'd invoke uh this kind of pragmatic argument that well If a capital punishment doesn't adequately functioning as a deterrent, then it can't be justified. And that's really not precedent in terms of why men are put to death. You're put to death because that's the punishment.

Because like scripture tells us, you know, the blood of the victims cry out the heaven for vengeance. And like de Maestres said, you know, the essence of sovereignty is the power of life and death. So if the sovereign is going to say, I'm going to let some miscreant murder people with impunity, and I'm going to hamstring myself and deny myself the same power, then what's purporting to be the sovereign isn't actually sovereign. it's some sort of gilded, you know, imposter. But such that there is precedent, I mean, granted, the argument that I just outlined that was often invoked by opponent's capital punishment, that it's a bastardized version of the argument, but it is, whether they realize they're not, deretive of this kind of early positive law, paradigm as to what the nature is of justice and things of that nature, which is interesting.

But again, I realize younger people probably aren't going to be familiar with the fact that there was this tremendous debate over death penalty issues. And the kind of resolution of that that and gun rights. I mean, I know there's a lot of like, there's a lot of bluster and a lot of cap about, you know, from the regime and, and these functionaries saying they want to ban guns, but that's not, that's not going to happen, you know, and I got mixed feelings of the Supreme Court enforcing the Second Amendment against the states, but regardless of those concerns, just the fact that it has been incorporated against the

states means that it's essentially a settled issue. Like private ownership of firearms is never going to be categorically banned and the death penalty is never going to go away nationally. You know, the states that have it, it's going to continue in earnest and

it's just kind of off the table. And that's fascinating because it represents a sea change. So, you know, this is the key kind of takeaway and the reason why I keep invoking these examples

of how this paradigm that Grotius developed differs from contemporary perspectives is because it's completely

at odds with the idea of human rights as we would think of it. you know, or the idea of subjective rights that, you know, held by the person simply as a human being, you know, and not embodying objective qualities, again, such as that of a master or a slave or a ruler or a father or head of a household or a landowner, you know, um, there is some sort of connection between Grotius's body of theory and the kind of fully realized contemporary idea of absolute subjective rights. But that's not unlike, you know, there's a connection between Marx and Hegel, you know, that doesn't mean that Hageelius, is truly, you know, the ethical forbearer of Marxism or something. You know, and if you accept the, you know, as I do, that the dialectical process is kind of like the prime agent in the development of political and sociological structures.

you know, there's going to be cross-pollination between monumental ideas, obviously. That doesn't suggest some sort of unimpeded lineage, or like some unsettled heritage between, you know, what came before in the present. It just means that nothing occurs in isolation and particularly not, you know, matters of political significance that impact the psychological environment in just positive ways and, you know, inform and impact these structures in the real world. I mean, that should be obvious, but I anticipate some pushback on this. So I'm kind of trying to, or maybe not, but I'm trying to preclude some of that. And I mean, and that's totally illegitimate. I mean, I'm not saying people shouldn't call me out on some of these things. It's a complicated subject matter.

But it's important to clarify, and not just because I'm interested in depriving the regime of, credibility in terms of the intellectual precedent that it claims to be the heirs to. But I think that's important too or appropriate, obviously. But that's not, the kind of linear view of historical processes is insidious for the similar reasons. You know, it kind of cuts off not just critical analysis, but constructive, structuring in conceptual terms of what came before. And that really precludes a meaningful diagnosis of, you know, the state of things, particularly, again, in dialectical and psychological terms. And these things are paramount if, you know, you're a political theorist, or if you're a layman who dedicates themselves to this subject.

matter, you know, like I am. It's, uh... Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these

plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.e. 4. Northwest.

Employers, rewarding your staff? Why choose between a shop voucher or a spend anywhere card when with options card you can have both? With options card, your team gets the best of both worlds. They can spend with Ireland's favourite retailers or choose a spend anywhere card. It's simple to buy and easy to manage. There are no hidden fees, it's easy to use and totally flexible.

They can even re-gift or donate to a good cause. Make your awards more rewarding Visit Optionscar.com.com. Today. This Black Friday Game, stream and go full speed with one gig Sky broadband and watch unmissable shows like all her fault on Sky. These nice people killing you, John.

And Ballad of a Small Player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I've made some mistakes. Right, who hasn't? Get one gig Sky Broadband, Essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Our lowest ever price. Availability subject location, new customers only, 12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter, TV and broadband sold separately. terms apply for more infoosies sky.a slash beads.

There's also, and this isn't as developed, at least in Groydus's main body of work, the kind of final iteration of right as a naturally occurring phenomenon derived from these structures that, you know, are the product demands higher rationality and the social organism that encompasses and is the product of that capability. The kind of unexamined aspect of that is that which obliges the men to act correctly, not just to refrain from doing things that violate, you know, the public trust and the, you know, confidence is in the essential aspects of the social organism and political society. But, you know, there's a natural sanction.

that must attend people who refrain from correct action. And people would deliberately shirk their obligations therein. And that kind of volitional understanding of right and that kind of affirmative obligation towards action of a certain type, You know, within the penumbra of justice, we're probably talking about, you know, what citizenship is. But it's not, but it's distinguishable from an active citizenship because it's explicitly moral. You know, and that warrants a kind of deeper dive. I've got my own thoughts on that, but I've got to, I'd have to delve deeper into,

some of Grotius is more esoteric stuff and particularly the dialogues that he wrote. You know, but this is another aspect that, you know, kind of removes this entire theoretical model from the merely pragmatic or utilitarian. You know,

you don't impose affirmative duties for the sake of mere pragmatism, you know, in the purely utilitarian model of what constitutes the duties of incoming upon individuals in the social organism, it basically stops at non-interference.

You know, and I think there's more of, there's at least an Aristotillion an echo in Grotius, much as he sought to distinguish himself from political theorists. I think that that owes more to just that. I think you wanted to make it clear that he wasn't suggesting some overall theory of politics. He was suggesting a science of the law which had anthropological and psychological.

aspects that were explanatory of the human condition within this narrow domain of human activity. You know, that domain being, you know, within political society. I don't read into that some sort of, some sort of, blanket repudiation of, you know, Aristotelian political ontology. But again, I'd have to dive deeper into the subject matter. That's what all I got on Grotius for today. I hope that was worthwhile. It's a very complicated subject matter.

I mean, that's not to say that the subs can follow this stuff as well as I can. I wasn't just anything like that. But it can be difficult to make it interesting. it's important. It's the essential foundation of some of what we're going to get into. I was contemplating. I want to cover Calvin and Martin Luther because I think that that's important. But to be fair, that means I should also cover Aquinas. And I've got to bone up on that because I'm not Roman Catholic. And when I was at Loyola, I had to read Aquinas. And everybody should read Aquinas anyway. in the interest of kind of like equal time and it probably seems like i should have uh arguably like

after vicissidities i should have we should have gotten into acquaintance of scholastics but to be fair you know i'm a political theorist at base and i wanted to emphasize the trajectory of political theory within the continental tradition and um you know um um If it seems like I'm jumping around to go back to Aquinas and Scholasticism as we're reading about Reformation thinkers, I wanted to include, I mean, theology is always in dialogue with theology. There's something about it that is kind of outside of temporal politics. I mean, it's not to say that theological considerations aren't impacted by political and cultural variables that are temporally sensitive. Obviously, they continue rather. Obviously, they are, but I think it makes sense to deal with the directly theological aspects, you know, kind of in succession.

So I got to think about this for a minute. But yeah, I If not next session The following one I'm gonna get into Calvin and and Martin Luther If that sounds agreeable man, it's your show Study both of them at length Yeah, yeah, that's great

Yeah, all right man I hope this was worthwhile to the subs Well, it all it seems to me When you look at Grotius considering he's talking about natural law, the fact that he's also a humanist, there's tension there. So it's going to be,

it seems like it's going to be complicated. Yeah, and the law is always, when you're talking about the law, like unless you're literally talking about, you know, unless you're talking about, you know, and it's most kind of basic and primitive,

you know, a penal code that just like sanctions, like, obvious, you know, violations of the person's property or their bodily integrity. You're talking about, you're talking about, like, conceptual models that are, like, abstractions built on abstractions. And, you know, one of the reasons, like, all of Rundle Holmes, you know, I came to the point that the law is always politicized, you know, and people, who can't accept that, they're going to resort to this kind of increasingly tortured reasoning to try and suggest that, you know, well, the law is the sort of like learned science of ethics. You know what I mean? That that spins things off and all kinds of sophistry and tautological, you know, nonsense. But it's, yeah, it's, well, and also, too, I mean, there's just,

there was a it's kind of remarkable to like this the uh like the the 15 16 and 17th centuries you had there's like the politics of Europe are incredibly complicated you know and

you still had you know like sectarian matters were still having a huge impact on on on war and peace question and the middle of data affairs you know the scientific revolution was going full steam you know the modern state was arriving when you know imposing genuine future shock on populations you know the first industrial revolution

was kicking off you know and so you had really really great minds writing on matters of politics. And, you know, it's, yeah, it's really fascinating to contemplate. But yeah, we'll continue this series in earnest. And yeah, I was, like I said, I'm still, I'm not, I'm feeling good, but I'm still struggling with fatigue a little bit. So like, forgive me if I seem a little low energy. So I hope I didn't convey that.

No worries. Do quick plugs. We'll get out of here. Yeah. I'm trying to increase the volume and frequency of my content on Substack. You know, I'm doing a lot of collabs. I just collab with Joel Davis. I'm doing the World at War Collab with, you know, my dear friends Adam and Nick at the Myth of 20th Century podcast. I just dropped another episode of Radio Free Chicago was my collab with Jay Burton. You know, you can find all that stuff, plus like the mine phaser pod on my substack. It's Real Thomas 777.7.7.com. As I think I've mentioned before, I'm kind of restructuring my content.

But my substacks, your one-stop shop right now. You know, I'm on Instagram, on telegram, on YouTube. I'm a lot of places. But my long-form stuff, my podcast content, you can find my stuff. you can find my substack. And they seem to be the one platform that doesn't censor me, despite the fact I never violate TOS anywhere. But that's where you should go for now.

And just search around, like on Spotify, you'll find my stuff. On YouTube, you'll find my stuff. And like I said, I'm trying to structure things to make it easier to find all of my shit. So moving forward this summer, we'll get that done. All right. Thank you. Talk in a couple days. Yeah, man.