The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1262: The 19th Century Labor Movement w/ Thomas777 and Darryl Cooper

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

2 Hours and 42 MinutesPG-13Darryl Cooper and Thomas777 joined Pete for his Sunday livestream to have a discussion about the spawning and growth of the 19th century labor movement in the United States.The Martyr Made PodcastThe Martyr Made SubstackThe Unraveling PodcastThomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on Twitter

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carefully. I've had some people ask me about this, even though I think on the last ad I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed, you're going to have to subscribe through substack or through Patreon. You can also subscribe on my website, which is right there, gumroad, and what's the other one? Subscribe Star. And if you do that, you will get access to the audio file. So head on over to the Picanueno show.com. You'll see all the ways that you can support me there. And I just want to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can put out the amount of material that I do. I can do what I'm doing with Dr. Johnson on 200 years together and everything else. The things that Thomas and I are doing together on continental philosophy. It's all because

of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank you enough. So thank you. The Pekignanah Show.com. Everything's there. Everybody. It is Labor Day weekend. And I got two guys here who can talk about labor all day. Thomas, how are you doing? And well, thank you. Thanks for hosting me. And first time on the live stream.

How you doing, Darrell? Doing well, man. It's always good to be here, and it's especially good to be here with Thomas. It's awesome. All right. Labor Day weekend. Let's talk about labor. Let's talk about the history of labor in this country, the labor movements.

I know both of you, Daryl's obviously has a series on it. Thomas and I have covered it extensively on multiple series. So who wants to go first? Who wants to talk about why right wingers and right-coded people don't talk about it? Is it because it's just a left-coded thing? Is that what it is? I'll let Thomas start because I like listening to him more than I like listening to myself. I think it's what Werner Sombard said it was.

You know, Sombart wrote, at first it was an essay for context. One of the reasons why George Sorrell's, his most well-known stuff, like reflections on violence, that originally was a series of essays. The labor movement was particularly literate. There was a lot of journalists who were, you know, engaged in it, and they'd serialize, you know, their position paper. and things, okay, and socialist periodicals and

stuff. Sambar was a little more, he came more to academia than some of these guys. I mean, Sorrell did too, but Sorrell was a mathematician. That's kind of a different thing, but Sorrell wrote what became an essay and then a book called Wise. There were no socialism

in America. Okay? The short answer is, you know, whether or not you accepted Tolkville is going to take that America actually is full of rugged individuals. Americans are averse to taking on a class identity for a lot of reasons. It's not it's not just a misplaced kind of pride or something. And it's not just, you know, a kind of fantasy they have of themselves.

Only the civic mythologies. There might be some of it. But the ability to bargain one's labor independent of a collective structure that was important in America for a lot of reasons. And it's not like an America you had some party apparatus backing you up. You know, if you decided to take a stand with some sort of labor concern against an employer, you really were on your own. You know, so there was kind of this conspiracy of variables that precluded working class

mobilization in America. And interestingly, the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, you know that conclusion, too. like it's the other like we'll continue Gus Hall was was their was their formal representative in the states which is really interesting you know the communist party USA and basically their attitude became in the 20th century you know we're going to keep on funding this and we want to make sure our position is stated you know I want some kind of formal representation and we want we want some information resource for American workers but we're not going to understand the delusion that there's going to be some kind of socialist wave in America. or that's going to be it all impactful because that's just not realistic. You know, so I think it's all of those things. But also, and I'll give it over to you guys in a second, I make the point again and again,

and I'm not just being pedantic or trying to convey some sort of a polemical point. There's not a working class anymore. Working class doesn't mean guys with jobs or people who work with their hands. It refers to a very discreet and specific dynamic, between mass numbers of people and producers in a national economic paradigm, where basically millions of men, and it's almost all men, are doing the exact same job to produce value-added

manufacturers on behalf of a basically protected industry that then is making those manufacturers for export, either throughout the continental captive market or across, you know, substantial portions of the world. that's the working class. It's not guys who have jobs or people below a certain income threshold or this guy who's got his own auto mechanic shop. You know, so it's not something that exists anymore. You know, that's why it's goofy when Bernie talks about the working class.

It's like, who are you talking about? Are there like 3 million factory workers here in Chicago? I don't know about, are they hiding? You know, do we, is there an industry, Is there like a national industrial economics schema that exists that we just don't know about? Like that's dead. That doesn't exist anymore. It's never coming back.

So when you talk about the labor movement, it's all those reasons like ethical and otherwise that I raised a minute ago. But it's also conceptual. It's not something that exists anymore. So people don't really grasp what's being talked about. They think it's, they think people are talking about income disparities or, you know, the, or outsourcing or, I mean, like, all that's so important, don't be wrong, but it's not what's being talked about in terms of 19th, the early 20th century, like labor paradigms.

That's my take on. Yeah, I think also, you know, America being born out of a revolution and not having a feudal past and sort of drawing a lot of its identity, especially early on from that very fact, gave everybody room to sort of nurture the illusion that there was no, such thing really is class in America for quite some time. You know, even if you, even if you look at a place like Virginia, you know, where the majority of the people being brought in were kids being brought in as orphaned indentured servants, a vast majority of the population up until the late part of the 17th century were indentured servants. Even then, it was sort of, it was sort of thought

of, even at a time when most of the indentured servants weren't surviving the duration of their contracts, there was still this idea that this is a temporary stop. over until you join the ownership class basically. And yeah, that farmer over there might have more land than you and more cattle than you, but you're essentially the same. You're both self-sufficient producers, and that's sort of the path everybody was supposed to be on. And if you go all the way up to the 1840s and a lot of the country into the 1850s into the Civil War, you know, business was still, like manufacturing was still largely conducted on, like on the workshop level. You know, you'd have masters and journeymen and apprentices, and the journeymen and apprentices were there to learn,

and it was a relatively high-skilled job because they didn't have all these mass production machines. And so they weren't easily replaced, you know, as factory workers would later be. But even then, so the idea was they were going to learn that trade, and then they were going to go find a niche in the market so that they could go open up their own workshop and have their own journeymen, their own apprentices. And this is very much the idea of like what the American economic track was up until. I mean, you hear Abraham Lincoln even talk about this seriously, I think, which is ironic considering he conquered the South on behalf of the northern business class.

But he had his humble beginnings and all that. And so he really kind of nurtured that illusion way past its expiration point that this is like what America was and where things were headed. And, you know, it's not just that they were on the workshop level. It's, you know, people back then were still at least mostly for the most part, were still like half rural, you know, a large majority of the population, if they weren't fully rural. So even if you worked in like a shoemaker's workshop as an apprentice or a journeyman, you had a house in the country or a little place in the country with a garden. If there was a

downtime where people didn't need shoes and he didn't really need your labor, you hunted, you fished, you took care of your pig and slaughtered a pig, you tended your garden. You had something there to kind of fall back on. You weren't living in a tenement house in the middle of a city where if you break your leg and get thrown out on the street, you're done. Like that's pretty much, you know, you just don't have anything to fall back on. And so all of these things sort of mitigated the emergence of that prior to the Civil War. And then after the Civil War, of course, like the economy began to change so rapidly that we were kind of playing, we were kind of playing catch up. You catch them in the corner of your eye.

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Yeah, and I did add real quick too, I mean, that's a really well stated, but, But one of the things that underlay the terrible Mary Fagan case was that Mary Fagan was an exploited child laborer. And if you read about, there was interestingly, even among like a lot of the clan adjutant, it was like, look, look what the North did. They basically turned our people into this exploited proletariat. They didn't use that language, but it's like, so Mary Fagan, she was at 13, she's forced into this industrial labor, which is brutalizing. It's no surprise that some predatory man like Leo Frank would exploit her sexuality too because that's what the North is doing to us. That's the whole point.

You know, we're literally being raped. The land's being raped or labor is being raped or women are being availed to this kind of abuse because, you know, we've been ripped from the land and forced into this corrupting system. You know, so, yeah, that's tremendously important. You know, in America, it was so huge. Yeah, you could basically, most. It was something, people weren't living in 1870s America, 1880s America, like they were in the suburb of Paris or in some industrial town in the UK or something. I mean, you could basically escape industrial labor and really until around the turn of the century for most people.

Yeah, and that led to conditions where, you know, partly because of the outlet of the frontier, partly just because the growth rate of America, labor was just. pretty much always in a shortage for the first several centuries of our existence. And so wages always seem to be increasing. And just in general, you know, there are a lot of those mitigating factors for people to feel like they really had to organize in a militant way to assert themselves as a class identity that, again, they had no past experience with. You know, we started to get a lot of Czech and German immigrants that would play a major role in the Chicago movement, a lot of the industrial movements later on who were veterans or sons of the veterans of the 1848 revolutions over there.

But we just didn't really have anything like that, you know. And, you know, it was going to take some, it was going to take quite a, you know, a bit of shock therapy to get workers to start thinking in that way. And it did. Go ahead, Thomas. Yeah, it's, uh, what's also, too, I want to, the lack of a feudal origin of America is important. You know, because, and Marks actually talked about. this as what and Sombard really emphasized this point.

You know, and Pete and I were talking about some of this the other day in our series on Marx. There's a basic interdependence between the chaos and feudalism. You know what I mean? This is deep anthropological implications, too. You know, doom is ill-struct functional hypothesis, you know, relates to that as well. But that's one of the reasons why that paradigm endured for so long. I mean, arguably it endured into the 20th century in Eastern Europe. You know, I mean, it depends on who you ask.

And, you know, some historians and kind of labor sociologists would object to that. But in broad strokes, I, you know, I think the conceptual picture is clear. But, you know, and one of the big, a big catalyst of the law, labor movement is to repair the social fabric that modern productive schema destroyed. You know, because traditional socialists and laborites, they're not liberals. They don't look at history as some horrible criminal record where everything was awful until last week when gay people were ammunited and can pee in each other in public without being arrested.

Like, your whole notion was that history is a developmental cycle. lot of brutal aspects of it are essential features of the historical process and you know innovation and need for innovation being the mother of invention and a lot of the time these brutal conditions are the catalyst for such things you know but they're also basically pragmatically amoral so a lot of the notion was that and i don't fully reject this i think there's actually a lot of truth in it was that the Industrial Revolution was a modality of class war of nascent capitalists essentially smashing the traditional aristocracy and what that did was it it rendered labor relations anonymous and laborers expendable because there was no longer any spontaneous interdependence

between the cast and um there was really no any any vestigial fellow feeling that remained was abolished often by design you know and especially if you're talking about strassarites and you know guys were arguably you know like right-wing labor rights and socialist in the early 20th century that was that was a big part that that was um that was that was a big part of their notion like the black legion you know which was the strassarate schismatic national socialist uh faction they'd openly talk about that how, you know, the capitalist is basically a spiritual Jew. And, you know, what, what destroyed the, you know, the fellow fueling of, of the Vogue was, you know, these kinds of capitalist designs, you know, and we've got to return to a kind of localized interdependence of labor, you know, that in turn will, you know, return Europe to a, a condition where it can defend itself against these subversive tendencies that, you know,

only the nuances of the historical process were now uniquely susceptible to. So that's important. And I think that's lost in a lot of people that they have this idea that the traditional socialist viewpoint or the traditional waiver-centric viewpoint, which has problems. I'm not saying that's a correct account of human. ontology, but they don't look at the past as this thing that is abhorrent or that needs to be remedied. They consider that perspective I just outlined to be like a bourgeoisie conceit, you know,

so this is important. And that's part of it too. I mean, that's why despite the fact that you'll find these these media personages and and these types like Bernie Sanders, you know, they pretend that they're lamenting the absence of a labor movement. They don't really mean that because they're speaking a totally different conceptual vocabulary than that.

And their priorities are totally different than that. You know, they can invoke these things so it's not something that exists anymore. So I think it's all of those things, man. Yeah, and that's a really good point about, you know, that sort of wiggish idea of the past being one long train of nightmares, being a bourgeois conceit. And there are probably various ideological, like, developmental reasons for it.

But one of them, I think, certainly, incentive-wise, was just that, you know, this was the class that was using demonization of the past as a means of throwing off the constraints that had previously been placed on them. And getting to that place of just anonymous, replaceable units of labor rather than person-to-person, you know, as bad as, feudalism could be in the wrong context and things like that. It was a person-to-person relationship and a set of obligations that existed between people. And, you know, these are the kinds of expectations, you know, that were put on people by custom that a lot of the bourgeoisie was trying to, was trying to throw off and rid itself up. You know, that abolition of casts that began to happen in Europe, we had like a, you know, we had this, this lead, that abolition of cast leading from a to an impersonal labor relation. We had a version of that in the United States when slavery ended. I mean, if you go back to the 1850s again, you know, the, I think this was the 1840s, if I remember right, but in the 40s or 50s, I'm sure it hadn't improved much by the 50s. You know, an average, the average life expectancy of an Irish dock worker in the United States from the time he stepped off the boat was about 14 years. And so,

And these aren't old men that are coming. These are usually young strapping guys looking for work. And so these are young guys showing up. They work for 14 years on the docks and they get work to death. They die of disease and it's over. And you compare that to what you started to see in the south as the plantation system started to develop. And really even before that, I mean, by almost any measure that you can think of, and this is really not. You even will read this in left-wing articles and essays and stuff now sometimes.

times, is that, you know, you can use health care, general health, life expectancy, caloric intake, and just the macro, you know, dietary intake, all the different housing, all the different measures that we would have for like quality of life. Your average slave on a southern plantation had a better life than your average worker in a northern factory. I mean, that is, and you can say, well, the fact that he was bonded, it outweighs all of that. And I think we're American. we all have some level of sympathy with that idea for sure. But if you're just looking at like material standard of living,

it was just objectively better in every sense than your average northern factory worker. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive by design. They move you even before you drive. The new Cooper plug-in hybrid range for Mentor, Leon, and Teramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade in business,

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Liddle, more to value. And now this is over the next to Hampshire. It's leargoal to the Glear Glewai and not great greeing in Aondoon, and leander to Gaela to Gaelan. In the Grette, we're talking to the Woonah with Fonifin'Vo'unner. It's a lot of doing on the English lexarche on as to refer to every child, Gnaw and people tariff in the Tashdie.

There are a cooct-doaghan, full more in Ergaret Ponga I. And that was because, you know, under slavery, there was still, it was still a personal relationship and a sort of interdependency between the producer and the labourer. You know, they saw these people as, as, as, as individuals, they were workers who were going to be with them for life, but also they saw their slaves, especially on the larger plantations, as not just individuals, but as a community that actually needed to be preserved and nurtured in order to keep producing

workers and have healthy and productive workers. And so, you know, people are very surprised these days to go back and read about, you know, know, Christmas coming along in a given county in Mississippi and all the slaves from all the plantations around being given the month off and being given their annual ration of whiskey by their, you know, by their owners. And they all kind of go and hang out together on each other's, on each other's plantations and have parties and hang out. And like, that kind of thing happened. And it was very, it was very common became the standard in a lot of places that things like that would happen. And a lot of people are very, are very surprised to find that out, but they shouldn't be,

you know, because again, you have, you know, you have to imagine, these are people that, you know, that live with you, live on the same piece of property with you that you see every day. People who, if you're an owner, you know, and you inherited your slaves, the old lady who's cooking your food now, like, you know, she used to babysit you when dad and mom were busy and you played with her kids growing up and everything. So it's a very personal relationship that when you moved into the factory system, you know, and it's very interesting that like, you know, the John Brown raid, for example, was financed by six northern industrialists whose workers were just treated terribly, you know, and southern, it's something that did not slip by the attention of southerners,

believe that. But as you started to move into that impersonal labor relation, humans became, it was just, it was incredibly dehumanizing. They got compete, the, the worker got completely abstracted from the process of production. And, you know, discipline became much tighter, you know, relative to both slavery, which is, again, something that surprises people, as well as the workshop system, where people often, you know, work by peace or they would come in and they didn't have strict hours they had to keep or anything. They got paid when they worked and, you know, didn't get paid when they didn't.

Whereas you move into the factory system where now you're, you're trying to serve essentially as far as they were concerned in infinite market. You know, the reason the workshop system persisted as long as it did wasn't just because you didn't have the industrial machinery to churn everything out at the rate you would need to. It's just that, you know, it's hard to run a nationwide business without really good railroad and telegraph connections, for example. I mean, if you just don't have those things, it's hard to run a large organization that's spread out geographically. And so if you had a little operation, you were probably serving like this region of your state. And then over there, they needed another one because at a certain point, transporting it by horse just becomes cost prohibitive, you know. And so there's like a limitation on scale that also gave workers options in terms of mobility, you know. They upset this boss.

They can move 50 miles and go find another one. And as these things started to get consolidated, the power that went with that did as well. You had all the workers in one place. You had owners that, you know, if they blacklisted you, there were only maybe two or three of them, and they met every Sunday for golf that you could maybe go work for after that. So you got to be much more compliant. And because they were trying to compete with others for this ship for a share of what to them was virtually an infinite market, I mean, you know, it's this pressure to produce as fast and as efficiently as possible.

that did not exist under the either slavery or under the workshop system really did work in the factory. You started to have, you know, instead of the master who owns the workshop with his journeyman and apprentices, you had stockholders and then a manager who was an employee of the firm and he was paid to extract output from the workers. That was what he was paid for. And that was what the shareholders want. So it was a very, very just different model of how you relate to what was quickly becoming like the mass. of the population. There is no comparison.

I mean, people are just monumentally ignorant. If you were a southern slave, you literally lived in the master's house. Like, I love this idea. It's like, so people who lived in the same house for generations, you're telling me that what characterized slavery, which by the way, slavery proceeds written language,

it's literally the only universal institution, and it's the oldest one. You're telling me that southern slaves, they were beaten and tortured every single day, and they just hated the master chaos and vice versa. There's a monumental ignorance about a human beings relate. Like, that's not workable on other things. And I like the book The Jungle,

Lapt and Sinclair, because, I mean, increasingly, nobody even remembers in the stockyards here existed. They closed, I think, in 68. And even then, it was the development of modern age, HVAC and, you know, refrigerated rail. You know, that's what did away with, like, the stockyards in Chicago. Because, you know, when you couldn't climate control, you know, the storage environment, obviously, you know, you had to slaughter animals here because it was like the central loco

that then, you know, went out everywhere else. But, you know, it's like talking about a... Comparing agrarian slavery to, you know, the experience of some immigrant working at back of the yards where something like 20% of men die on the job, you know, and the moment you get injured, it's basically a death sentence because you'll, you know, you'll have no safety in that. You know, like comparing that to the experience of an agrarian slave in the end ofllumel himself. I mean, that's like comparing a duel between rivals to the experience of getting cut to pieces at the Somme by a machine gun before even visual range of the opposing force. You know, but it's, but I mean, it's very curated. You know, that's why if you ask even people who are nominally literate, like if you ask why the war in the States happened, they'll tell you. you that the South basically existed to torture black people so they had to be liberated by the

north you know it's there's just a monumental ignorance on the reality of historical processes in human affairs you know and to be clear too traditionally um the the the traditional marxist leninist view is that trying to preserve slavery in order to extract problems from an outmoded production schema is a monstrous evil. But the idea that slavery in it of itself is just this monumentally abominable thing, nobody thinks that way, other than, really other than modern liberals, you know, and deranged people, you know, like John Brown and his spiritual progeny. So, yeah, all of that's important.

Well, it's like we were talking about on the show is that if, when you talk about Marx, you have to talk about what he got right. Everybody wants to talk about what he got wrong. Yeah, and his views on capitalism and why he thought capitalism was necessary, why he was against tariffs, why he wanted free trade and would even champion laissez-faire, because it would deracinate and it would bring the people to the point where they would be more receptive to his beliefs than that it would even happen organically. It's kind of hard to argue that when you see what's happened in the last 150,

170 years that he was wrong. I don't understand either why these kinds of kosher, conservative types they love the they love the term capitalism that's basically a marxist term you know like like why why this hillsyll college type saying like i love capitalism it's like that you mean the free markets you know like you're not that that's essentially a punitive uh neologism to describe a particular mode of labor and production schematics you know like it's not so yeah these same the same people who claim that Kamala Harris is a

Marxist and they hate Marxists. They're basically invoking Marxist conceptual vocabulary to describe what they think is the system they live under. It's very strange. One of the reasons let me just start with it.

And it's one of the reasons why you, when people want to fight, when people fight against Marxism. They're like, well, the only way to fight against Marxism is to, is to advocate for the free market. And it's like, that's how I know you haven't read marks, okay? Because you'd be seeing all the telltale signs of everything that happens. So sorry, now, go ahead. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle

Newbridge warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must. tabs. When the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design, they move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon and Teramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2,000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers. Coopera. Design that moves.

Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited, trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. And now this is over the nationaimshare. It's leargoal gulg of the Glear Glear and not yet to anyone in Aundoon, and leant the Gaela

to Giontamalfa Gail to Dairn. In Ergrid, we're dig Tawcci in Woonaha with Foonive Nvunah. It's a uschrotho lecturers

onus as to find out of Tashdieu and people, I'm trying to say, like, you know, people really need to really have to like stop to force themselves to understand the the monumental nature of the changes in the economic

and social system that were coming in the second half of the 19th century you know once you started to get the railroads and telegraph built out and you started to have these massive firms with share with anonymous shareholders and hired managers that were shipping to the entire country or out of the country even um You know, you started to develop all of a sudden. You know, I know a lot of, like, conservative right-wing types today, they love to bash Teddy, Teddy Roosevelt because he's, you know, whatever you want to, you know, he's a, he's an early socialist or state-statist, you know, who wanted to curb, whatever.

They, you know, in the sort of libertarian capitalist capitalism terms that they use against him. But, you know, I tell people all the time when they, when they do that, you really have to, understand the world that he was watching and the changes that were taking place, where all of a sudden you have the emergence of these institutions with revenues that rival states, with security forces that rival those of many, like in the United States, certainly, the national government, you know, and having just levels of power and control over masses of people across whole regions that could not be exercised by the state at the time. It didn't have the resources or just, you know, things hadn't developed to the point where it felt like it had the right to do that.

And so, you know, you had these massive institutions that were essentially competitors with the state. And Teddy Roosevelt was a guy who stepped in and was like, we're not going to have that. That is not going to happen. You know, the state is going to maintain its supremacy over whatever these are becoming. That's the bottom line, you know. That's a starting point. And of course, it has to be that way. We see what happens when it doesn't.

You know, you get Ludlow, Colorado, or you get, you know, a lot of the Pinkerton massacres and, you know, in the steel belt and in Chicago. And, you know, as you start to move into that new era where people are being concentrated in cities and concentrated in workplaces and are not there as differentiated masters, journeymen, apprentices, they're just there as masses of workers. you eventually hit this threshold that's sort of necessary for people to begin to organize and mobilize politically. You know, it's really hard to do if you're geographically distributed, and you have within the places where you are concentrated, you have status distinctions that are really important, like master and apprentice. Once everybody's a worker, you know, you hit that certain threshold and people begin coalescing and eventually politically mobilizing. And, you know, for a long time, I say this too. Like, I'm very sympathetic to the 19th century labor movement for a million reasons. When, you know, I read about labor conflicts.

I root for the labor people. Even if there's a bunch of anarchists and crazy people with them, I always root for them because I don't like Pinkertons. And, you know, the, to give the ownership class sort of its, you know, it's due, though, you have to understand. they were dealing with a changing world too. They were dealing with this world where all of a side, I mean, they saw the emergence of the working cloud, the mobilized working class, the mobilized masses of workers as like,

I think somebody out there had to have even used this. Maybe, you know what, one of the intros to one of Hobbswams books, I think he quotes somebody who does say, these are basically the Visigoths. These are the barbarians that are now forming up to tear down this thing that we've all built. And that's kind of how they saw it.

And, you know, from their perspective, nobody had ever seen anything like this before. You know, they just knew that there was this urban rabble that was sort of a black box you couldn't quite see inside, who were starting to get restless and dangerous. And all of the traditional modes of social control to kind of keep them in line were they evaporated with the social changes that took place. You know, all of the customs that would have governed how the ownership class

related to their workers and treated. their workers had evaporated, but at the same time, that automatic deference that the workers had for the classes above them evaporated as well. And so there's this brewing conflict that different countries are figuring out how to manage, you know, in different ways. If you look at like England, for example, you know, Mark's got most of his, most of his theory from watching English mills and English industry, like, you know, in his day and seeing how it was developing and working. But, you know, England is one of those countries that, like, they really found this sort of accommodation where, you know, the gentry and the aristocracy that was falling, you know,

below the bourgeoisie in terms of wealth production because of, you know, industrial agriculture and other things driving down the prices of commodities, which is their source of wealth, you know, they would intermarry with the rich bourgeoisie and they would, you know, find ways to sort of meld their two classes together. And in other countries where the distinction between commoner and aristocrat was much starker, and especially in countries where, you know, they didn't have a sort of a history of, a long, at least history and tradition of royal absolutism and had a tradition instead of sort of more powerful lords and a broken up polity in that sense.

You know, it was a much slower road to the sort of national project that I think is really the, that's sort of the incubator that a real labor movement has to grow in. Yeah, that's true. I say the Germans did it better than the UK. The UK has a problem. I mean, this, part of this is because the UK has always been a divided society and it's never been a homogenous polity. at all and that's this is about outside the scope um is it's hinted at in the book albian seed i go a little bit further i think there's a there's an ethnic dynamic to the to the to the cast system in

the uk i very much believe that um but uh there's there were certain disadvantages to the cultivation of uh united body politic and to this day there's some and again i don't know how to the conversation there's something wrong with the UK in the manner in which the classes relate like this is one of the reason like Boris Johnson he literally like nuked the entire country like on his way out the door nobody does that like only the UK does that um you know um but be as it may the uh one of the one of the reasons too you see why and how um it uh you know the you know the This is the point I raised the people. And this is changing because even even the most kind of non-observant dullard kind of detects the writing on the wall historically.

When people, they say stupid things as if, you know, the left, just in kind of broad strokes terms, is unbeatable because it's just got this momentum of history and this kind of mind. monolithic power to sway people's opinion. The left is dead. You know, they did nothing to salvage after 1989. You know, they had, uh, they had these grotesque characters like, like piggy Bill Clinton,

you know, who, who, uh, you know, were in the pocket of financial capital and basically trying to swap out, you know,

hedonic distractions for, uh, you know, labor concerns, but I mean, that's that's a hollow core. You know, they're, you can tell how fake the regime is that, because they're basically after 1989 and like absent this kind of interference by social engineering and structural obstacles to, you know, the majority actually expressing what would be its, its instinctive will, there would have been a permanent incommancy of what pads for the right wing, at least in America, in conceptual terms.

You know, because there is no left anymore. You know, as impoverished as, as mega is, there at least is a core of, you know, prerunosent may be intelligible, historically animated, principles there. There's nothing in their nominal opposition. Like that's why I pretend President shithead. Like it was poignant looking at Biden. He's literally this like demented old man who can barely stand up. I mean, that that is the American left right there.

If it was a person, that's it. The only thing more like that that was that seemingly pointing I can think of in terms of a living kind of metaphor of an abstract idea was a was, you know, doddering old Chironinco, and people gathed when they saw him. Because it's like, this is the mighty Soviet Union, like some guy with a mother, the mind of a child who doesn't know where the fuck he is. You know, so it's like, don't, don't tell me that the left, whatever people think that is in 20205, is somehow a stride history. There's literally nothing there.

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with vouchers from Trump-Dunbeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunbiog Khush Farragge. You know, they hold parades where people talk about anal seps. Wow, that's pretty monumental. And they're even worse. And they're even worse in Europe. Yeah.

I mean, they're more far gone in Europe, which is why, and Australia, and you're starting to see things happen in all these places. Well, yeah, exactly, because I mean, the center, the center cannot hold. It's, you know, but there is, There is, and I'll go back to you guys in a second. I, there's many exciting things about, you know, the present age, so all kinds of stuff is possible in terms of the mobility of capital and stuff and the ability to raise and utilize capital remotely, like literally from anywhere.

Like these days, you know, you can really stake out your own path and monetize your your skill set in a way that was unthinkable even 30 years ago, you know, this is what's making nullification truly possible, you know, and this, there's an economic aspect to social capital. That is paramount because obviously life isn't the business of personal finance and economics, but obviously that is important. You know, and that's not talked about enough. You know, I talk about it with you guys, and I talk about it, you know, privately with friends of ours,

but that's something that's not to emphasize enough. And that's why increasingly, man, I mean, I'm not trying to be cavalier, but when, like, randos are like, it's, like, hopeless. I work at XYZ company and blah, blah, blah, it sucks. I'm like, that's your fucking problem, you know, because you know like this isn't 1990 man like you're not you don't need to go work for XYZ company

you don't need to do that you know when I was young you did need to do that and people who can't see their way out of that are fucked up I think I don't mean to be a rough I gotta raise up in a minute because I got dinner plans

so don't I I've not I got like another five minutes but I didn't want to be like a rude dick and just like get up and Donald. You're right to hang out after down. Yeah, yeah, I can chill

and I would love to do a part two with all three of us again, one of these days you want to carry on the conversation. But if we have if we have just a few more minutes with Thomas, I want to like just maybe have you comment on one thing is I'm... Yeah, man. Something I'm very interested in.

That's why it's, yeah, but no, go ahead. Yeah. You know, I have kind of got a little obsessed with the history of your city, the city of Chicago, for a while when I was doing my labor series. And it's just because, you know, you can really almost, you can tell the story of the United States,

basically through the history of Chicago, certainly the whole Western United States because of the way they kind of developed together, you know, to the extent that infrastructure for supporting the outlying regions in the West, for the, you know, Chicago was obviously the hub of all that, you know, shipping out the manufactured goods and everything from barbed wire to timber to everything else that was actually building out the West,

it could only go as fast as Chicago's infrastructure for that kind of thing was expanding and how fast Chicago could process the commodities that were being shipped back from the West and get them shipped out to the east and everything. And you really can't tell the history of a large part, at least the economic history and social history of the United States, through that particular lens. And I wonder if you have any thoughts on just Chicago's role and all that. Yeah, that's affirmative. Well, it's also fascinating because Chicago's literally the center of the continental United States.

You know, and the degree to which Lake Michigan is a freshwater ocean, like, it's incredible. I spent a lot of time at the beach here, and, like, people don't, like, it really is a third post. I've got some basis for comparison, because I spent so much my early life in L.A. and stuff. I've been to the Pacific coast a lot. There's still a huge amount of waterborne commerce on Lake Michigan. There's a lot of shipwrecks, and up in Lake County, it's a little bit north, but on a really clear day from the right vantage point, you can see a couple of the shipwrecks from the shore as well.

But, yeah, that's also one of the few things that's kept Chicago from becoming a glorified Detroit. Unfortunately, I think that's what's happening now. But no, it's that's also why I've tried to explain to people, because people don't understand this place from without. It's for a metro area of like

5 million people, it's kind of weirdly insular here. You know, but like Chicago isn't liberal. Like in fact, when like Bougies visit here from the coast, they recoil in a horror and say like white Chicago is like horrible and racist and like retrograde,

which is fucking funny. You know, like I think it takes some pride in that. But they, people don't understand that the reason why, like traditionally, like a Democrat machine ran Chicago is because of the legacy of the labor movement. It's not because Chicago's full of guys who love Bill Clinton and Kamala Harris. Like, that's retarded.

You know, it's because, uh, I mean, there's exceptions, like Big Jim Thompson is still, like, revered as like a great man kind of in Illinois. But he was like a one-off. You know, like it's a, it's being a Republican, it's kind of a dirty word here. And it's not for the reasons it is on the coast. You know, it's for the reasons you said relating to the labor movement.

But there's also, there's an intensity to politics here that is kind of rare. You know, like Irvine Welsh, he's the guy wrote train spotting. He's an interesting guy. you know, and he's, um, he, uh, he lived in Chicago for several years. And he said Chicago is the only American city that reminds him of Belfast, including like the ethnic and racial geography. You know, like Chicago is like block by block. It's like divided, like every hood is like divided by ethnose and race and stuff.

And it's one of the reasons why, um, despite what these Fox News, uh, Jagos think. But first of all, you don't just get like shot in the face like as a neutron if you're walking around in Chicago. Like we don't live in a state of energy.

Like bodies get dropped at certain interface zones and stuff. But, you know, people here actually because of those like formal divisions, people actually show each other a fair amount of respect at distance because if you go around disrespecting other races, is you got a real problem, including white folks.

Like, you can't come at us like that. You will have any problem. But that really informed things, too. And, you know, one of my, one thing that's fascinating is, like, when I was practicing law, and I'd have to go to the Dirksen building. That replaced the old federal court building because anarchists blew it up. And one of the only artifacts that, survived intact. It was this giant iron gate with the U.S. federal seal on it. So if you go up to,

there's this kind of ceremonial courtroom on the, I think it's on the 11th floor, where they, they'll hold, like, meetings there and stuff. But outside of it, behind glass, they still got, like, the gate that's intact from when the old federal courthouse got blown up by anarchists. you know and um like i said a minute ago it's not an accident that upton sinclair's book was about you know the stockyards here plus that's a that's a uniquely brutal kind of labor like working in a slaughterhouse it's dangerous because you're around all those bleeds and stuff in those days you know the the animals are dangerous because the animals know what's going on they're trying to get away they're going to die and um

you know, it's crowded, it's dirty. I mean, you cut yourself, there's animal blood in the tritis everywhere. You can get an infection and lose your freaking limb or something. You know, that was kind of the zenith of brutal industrial labor. You're literally killing and then slaughtering animals at massive scale in this factory setting where pretty much everything can hurt you, you know. And most cities, I mean, don't get me wrong, especially in the East Coast.

You had plenty of, you had plenty of guys working in slaughterhouses, but not at that massive scale. You know, and like I said, this endured until the 60s, which is nuts. But that's something I get into a lot, as I think you guys know. you know that the model of that chicago was built on i mean big i think cities are important i mean i'm a city slicker myself they're important for cultural reasons and like gerbil said you got to control you can't deceive the city to the enemy or you're not in the game politically or you know socioculturally but uh cities are obsolete man like they they they belong to a national economic the era of national economics and they were built up as worker barracks

you know and uh everything about them from housing patterns to uh you know the to the to the urban planning to uh

the fact that uh you know in america in a lot of American cities especially Chicago like like these it's not just Mother Jones actually point out that the highway like divided like white ethnic Chicago from the hood and that wasn't because we're all assholes

or mean to black people to keep these populations from it's basically the American version of a peace wall as the highway, okay? But all of that owes to the reality of national evaluated production at scale by fixed

capital. You know, cities are dead as like an economic model. You know, the future is a is a is a like large towns, you know, and small cities are like 80 to 200,000 people at the outer expanse.

You know, there's not, and I mean, people don't seem to realize this, you know, among other things. But this is, and that's a good thing, much as I like Chicago. And I like New York City, too. New York City's really cool. And I even like Baltimore and I stay out there, even though it's Fubar. So I'm the last person who's going to trash cities, but I realize that there are effects of bygone era. You know, the future is living in a town of 50,000 people or 60,000 people

that's pedestrian friendly and most people work remotely or do their own thing. You know, it's, and that's great because that's a lot more healthy than those characters in the 20th century. But yeah, this is important stuff. And again, I'm sorry for being abrupt. It's Labor Day. Some of the fellows are in town and I got to play host, which is great. I'm not complaining. But, um, It means my time doesn't totally belong to me today, but I appreciate you guys inviting me. Thank you. Yeah, I could talk to Darrell for a little while.

Okay. Good time. What's up? I'm sorry. Good to talk to you, brother. Take care. Yeah, likewise. We'll reconvene.

If you guys want to do a part two, we'll reconvene and I'll be able to dedicate a block of time longer than today. But yeah, thank you, fellas. And I appreciate you very much, man. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive. By design. They move you. Even before you drive.

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Yep. Take care, man. You too. So here's the question I have. All right. The violence, like the haymarket affair, things like that. Do you think that was organic due to the conditions on the ground and what everything was, everybody was going to, or through, or how much do you think it also had to do with the Zyte

and just the revolutionary spirit that was building up throughout Europe. Yeah. So it really depends on the incidents you're talking about, right? Like the Haymarket Affair, which I have a very contrarian take on. We can talk about that if you want. But the Haymarket affair was driven by anarchists who were essentially from that 1848 lineage from Bohemia. You know, it's the Czech Republic, plays Southern Germany now. And so very radical, you know, very much driven by that.

When you look at the coal miner uprising, the minor one in West Virginia, the minor minor uprising in 1911, you know, that had the miners movement there was like shot through with communists and anarchists who were really kind of driving it to a point that it didn't need to come to and put a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths so that when the battle Blair Mountain came along 10 years later, there were no communists around. There were no anarchists. This is just an entirely organic coal miner movement, you know, who was basically, who were basically pissed off at the local authorities in the mine guard system, you know? And so it really kind of depends on where you're talking about and what people were populating the movement, you know, at that time,

depending on which immigrant group it was, because most of this stuff was driven by immigrant groups, partly just because they were the ones doing a lot of the industrial labor, but also because they came from a Europe that already had a tradition of organizing and revolution and doing this kind of thing. And so, you know, you didn't find a whole lot of, um, they existed for sure, but you didn't find a whole lot of, uh, you know, Anglo or assimilated sort of old German, Jewish, like, you know, like labor movement people or anything, because they had kind of moved past that in their, in their socioeconomic development. And so, um, and so yeah, it really just, it really does kind of depend on where you're talking about. One of the things I wanted to mention, too, is, you know, another reason

Chicago is so interesting is that's where because of, you know, it was the main collection and distribution point for all the commodities coming out of the West, that's where the Chicago Board of Trade and the Mercantile Exchange were set up. And, you know, that's what really turned the commodities trade into the sort of national and then international market that it is today. And you had this, I mean, today this is so normal for us to think about. So it just, you know, we just take it as part of the, you know, the business cycle is part of just how the economy works. And so when we have something, you know, like the Great Depression, where there's no famine, there's no war, there's no natural disaster that, you know, well, we had the dust bowl, obviously, but like that's not what caused the Great Depression. You know, it wasn't as if some act of God came and caused some damage and now we can't feed everybody or we can't house everybody. And so we got to, we got to, out to make selection. It wasn't like this. It was an entirely a financial phenomenon. You know, it was something that emerged out of the particular, you know, the abstract financial

system that we had built around the economy. And in the late 1800s, really as early as the 1880s, you see when you really start to see it, you start to see a lot of farmers, a lot of workers as well, and consumers at this point, you know, such as they were, mostly commodity consumers at the time. But starting to get really, really, you know, flabbergasted and upset watching, you know, they would all of a sudden a farmer can't pay his bills this year, not because his crop failed, not for any of those kinds of reasons, just purely because some guy cornered the market on this particular commodity and decided to drive the price down to pull. It's just purely shenanigans that were going on in Chicago at the Board of Trade or the

mercantile exchange, which, you know, didn't have the kind of legitimacy that they have now in the sense of like, you know, people kind of accept that they're whatever corruption there may be or whatever's going on. They are at least setting prices and serving that function. You know, you had, I can't remember which one was which, but one of the two was just run by an Irish gang and the other one was run by a Jewish gang. And it was totally out in the open, totally explicit. They fought with each other over like, who did what and didn't let anybody else. It was a totally closed system. So it didn't have that kind of, that kind of just acceptance and legitimacy that it does now. So you have these weird new financial institutions that are in the big city that now are causing

farmers out in the West to lose their land and things. And so, you know, when things like that start to happen, I don't think you're going to, you know, you don't get a lot of farmers rising up because, you know, they can't pay their bills because their crop failed. That's something that farmers, it's part of, part of the life, you know. But when things like this start to happen, people do start to get to get radicalized. And then when you think about what was happening at that time, partly because of this kind of thing, you know, it's very similar in just structural ways to what happened in the Roman Empire after they destroyed Carthage and conquered the Mediterranean, where, you know, you had a, you had a land of citizen soldier, you know, people who they fought in the legions and they paid the taxes and they support.

And then all of a sudden you have this massive influx of slaves coming from all over the Mediterranean, just huge influx of slaves. And of course, what happened was the people who already had the economies of scale, who could afford to buy as many slaves as possible, had more efficient operations. They gobbled up everything else. They began driving politics toward geopolitics, at least, in ways that benefited their business. And all of the people whose land was consolidated into these Latifundia, they all flooded into the cities. And they became your urban proletariat, you know, quote unquote, but like the urban mob, the mass. And we didn't have a big influx of slaves. We had industrial machinery that came along and drove commodity prices down to the point where,

unless you had just a massive, efficient industrial operation, the margins were so low, you just couldn't survive anymore. And if you could survive, the slightest thing went wrong and you were finished. And you ended up having to, you know, you just, you had to sell out or you got foreclosed on it. So many people did during the Great Depression. And if you think about like what Stalin was doing in the 1930s in Ukraine and other places, using incredibly brutal, direct methods to consolidate these inefficient, peasant farms that were still using oxen and wooden plows a lot of the time,

consolidating them into massive industrial agricultural operations, you know, in line with sort of modern practice and killing millions of people that do, doing it very directly and brutally. But in the United States, a version of that was going on at the same time. Millions of farmers were getting thrown off their land, pushed into the cities to go work in, you know, in the factories

so that their land could be consolidated into efficient, massive agricultural operations, You know, and we were, we were doing it more gently and more sort of voluntarily, at least on the surface. But at the same time, if you didn't want to leave your farm, a guy with a gun called the sheriff was going to show up and make you leave, you know, and that's the bottom line. And so, you know, these are, as Thomas is fond of pointing out and really, really good at kind of describing, these are very broad historical forces, you know, that in a lot of ways, the formation of the class system, the emergence of these conflicts, it wasn't even. even decades in the make. It was a lot of ways it was centuries in the making, you know. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive by design. They move you. Even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range for Mentor, Leon, and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Cooper and discover our latest offers.

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The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. Great to see you back at Spegg Savers. Okay, could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-L-S.

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Let me do, let me handle the super chats while I'm here. Sully the Amalekite said, thanks Pete, the discussions on religion are great and are in no way offensive to this Baptist. Cool. Yeah, it's one thing I didn't want to do was offend. Adrian had left a big super chat for my dental work.

I appreciate that. Nick says it all changed when coal miners became JavaScript programmers. That's a great one. Thank you so much. White on White has a super chat over an interview. He says, great to have Darryl on. Yes, it is. Thank you. Plum Gryper threw up a big super chat over an entropy.

He said love from Jersey. Thanks for everything. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. And Mr. Clockwork over on Rumble said, 777, Daryl and Pete, gentlemen, this is legitimately my favorite show. Much respect to each of you. And thank you all. So there you go. Let me ask about what organized labor. Okay, so unions. I mean, I come from a union family. My dad was an organizer before he, his stepdad was a teamster organizer.

Oh, the stories I'll tell you privately that I heard from that guy. I mean, these guys were straight up murderers in some cases. I mean, they drop bodies all across everywhere they went up to a certain point, especially in the interwar period. It was terrible. But organized labor. Once you start getting these unions that are legitimate, let's say they're getting to the point where they're legitimate organizations, how does that change the dynamic? Well, one of the things that happened very early on, you know, like people, people, one of the things people know about organized labor is its association with the mob.

And that's something that emerged very, very soon after, you know, these things hit that point of like legitimate. And it really happened organically and as a matter of necessity at first where, you know, you got to remember, these are times where, okay, there's a couple things like about the movement back then. You have to remember, like, these are not professional labor activists for the most part. These are dudes who turn a wrench for 10 or 12 hours a day. And then when they're done, they go to a meeting with their people and then they go home to their family. And these are workers. These are people who bust their ass at work and the most capable and able.

and organized and motivated among them, you know, kind of take the lead. But these are workers, you know, these are, these are men who, who, uh, are not just intellectuals. They're not leftist intellectuals or something. And, um, and so, you know, uh, as you start to, um, you know, right. And, uh, and so these people who are, who are, again, genuine workers, they go out on the picket line in the late 1800s. And you have, um, you know, the homestead, uh, incident, the pay market, and it's just incident after incident after incident. The Battle of Blair Mountain, Ludlow, Colorado, all these incidents you read about in American history now where Pinkertons or some other private security force is hired by the business, by the owners to break up a strike,

and not only to break up a strike, but then to spy on the people, to make sure that they're not organizing. And if they are organizing, to threaten them, assault them, sometimes murder them, certainly blacklist them. And, you know, these were, because, you know, people didn't, it was like an open question back then. Do you have the right to strike? You know, today it's kind of just taken for granted. Of course, you don't have to go to work if you don't want to, you know. Even people who are real kind of Reaganite capitalist type think you should be able to strike,

they just think that you should be fired for it or something, you know. But back then it was like, wait a second, you don't have the right to just, you know, try to bankrupt this guy who owns this place or to harm. the national economy or local economy with these antics. You don't have a right to do that. And so they would respond violently sometimes when they did. And we didn't have, you know, built out local state and federal police the way we do now. In fact, a lot of those, the local police were built out to kind of take over from the private security forces that the, you know, that the businesses were employing to do all this labor security work. And, you know,

And that's something that gets written up in, in, like, leftist historiography is just, you know, more proof of the capitalist capture of the state. Now they're using, you know, it to, it's sort of, but there was also a rational, I won't say altruistic, but a rational element to it where they're like, we can't just have, like, Pinkertons, you know, people like this, like, they're hiring people directly out of prison who are in there for murder and then, like, putting them, you know, setting them on these labor workers. We can't, like, have that be the prime. way that this is governed. The state has to step in and deal with this in some way. And so there was that element of it. But because of the level of violence and brutality that the owners would bring to bear against striking workers, you know, again, these are tough guys a lot of times. They turn wrenches all day, but they're not fighters, you know, and they needed fighters. They needed people on their side of the picket line who could defend them from these people who were going to show up with billy clubs and pile out of a street car, you know, and come after him. And who are they going to, who are they going to find? You know, these are workers close

to the street. Very often, you know, factories and industries would be, would be divided up by ethnic groups, which, you know, still lived in coherent, cohesive neighborhood communities back then. And so the organized crime elements, you know, who were, that were around, they were in touch with these people already, you know, and as it is even today, like, you know, everybody kind of watches the godfather or the sopranos or something they have this image of organized crime like it's just this complete they live in this total other world doing a thing that is almost like this it's there there's some people who are kind of like that the bosses and whatever most people have one foot in one foot out you know a lot of these guys who were affiliated because their brother was

you know um affiliated works at the factory and you know these guys these are part of the community and everybody knows them and so they called them in and said you know, we'll pay you or give you, you know, make you members of the union, et cetera, to protect us from, you know, from the private security forces basically. And then, you know, they ran into very quickly, they ran into the problem that everybody who does, anything like that does, you know, that the drug lord who owns the hacienda up on, up on the hill in Columbia decides to hire a bunch of former military guys to be his security force. And one day they look around at each other and realize we don't really need that guy to run this place.

And they have all the guns. And so, you know, they become the new boss. And that happened with the labor movement just across the board. These guys that they were bringing in to provide security for them kind of looked around. And they just realized that, you know, we can just take this thing over. And that began to happen. You got, I mean, this was a, I mean, labor. labor racketeering was really second only to prohibition alcohol distribution and much longer lived

a primary, primary like a source of income and power for the mob, you know, and not just power on the streets, but political power eventually as well. And, you know, all it really means, when people say labor racketeering, it's usually, you know, it's a simple proposition. It's, you know, the union shows up. It's run by the gangsters. And they go to the owners and say, you know, we could strike and demand X, Y, and Z. Or you could, or we can agree right now to a much lower set of demands. And then you cut us, you know, a check personally for, you know, for our service or whatever.

And that's essentially what it was. I mean, that and just taking portions of the union dues from the workers and so forth. And it was very lucrative, but what it did is it kicked the door open and allowed that element, you know, to sort of take the movement over to a degree. I mean, like, and that's not the only reason that Teamsters were dropping bodies, but, you know, when you see it across the labor movement, you know, the head of the United Mine Workers was assassinated back in like 62 or 61 or something like that. And it wasn't some random killing. I mean, this dude was assassinated, you know. And so, yeah, I mean, when you, the violence that started to come later, you know, the 19th century violence was what I said, you know, it was very dependent on who the people were and what, which incident you're talking about. So you get into the 20th century, early 20th century, you know, the Leipke-Bukhultor years and so forth, the violence is caused by, you know, the infiltration of organized crime, basically. And you get some really entertaining episodes sometimes, you know, like when the, in the 1940s, when they were having, you basically had like the mob and the L.A. Mob and the Communist Party of the United States, basically at war in the streets for control over the Hollywood unions.

It's just, it's like it's a great story to tell. I'm going to do it one of these. It was the next one I was going to do in my labor series before I got pulled onto the World War II thing a little early because it's a, such a great story. All these people you've heard of, Ronald Reagan's a major character, a bunch of actors. And you literally just have like, gangsters and communists fighting for control. And that was the case in a lot of places. Because the communists, you know, say what you want about the communists, they were just a one group of people. You couldn't threaten and you couldn't bribe. They were in it to win, you know. And so the mob could buy off politicians. They could buy off other labor, all these other, couldn't buy off the communists, you know, and you couldn't

threaten them. They were willing to fight you. And, and that's something else. I tell people too is like sure you had like your your lame sort of hollywood fellow traveler communist types back then you know and they were probably similar to the blue-haired people screeching we have today but the communist party like the the bulk of the people like on the street and this is especially true in europe but even in the united these were serious people man you know and and they may not have been turning wrenches 10 12 hours a day all of them some of them were and the ones who weren't, they were still like committed ideologues who were willing to suffer if they had to to like put this thing over. They were very serious people.

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Okay, could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-L-S. Deals. Oh, right, yes. Our Black Friday deals are, catching, but the letter chart's over here.

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it makes me kind of nostalgic to think about that, you know? I mean, somebody, I think, I can't remember what context, but we were talking about Europe earlier, And, you know, the, oh, like today in Europe, oh, the state of the left in Europe today. You know, I think a big part of the problem with it is that even Stalin, even the Soviets, had to accept the fact very quickly that so, and the Chinese have accepted it now and accepted it, you know, some time ago, that socialism, to the extent it can work at all, can only work in a national context. that's it and you can and of course socialism in a national context is Satan and the devil and the most evil thing ever happening in the history of the world and so that's just completely verboten and off limits you know in Europe they just it directs the left completely away from anything like because they don't have any conceptual framework to like bring these things back together and and you know fine you know it's understandable for a myriad of historical reasons that they would think that way you know I'm not least the the sort of of campaign of psychological warfare that's been waged against them for 80 years.

But it is the impediment to the left ever accomplishing anything again. You know, I mean, even people who look at it today and want to say, well, okay, yeah, this is, you know, it's cultural Marxism. It's this Gramscian sort of, you know, cult. It's like, okay, but even Gramsci was writing about like, we need to do this in order to be able to bring about the socialist revolution. there's no goal of that today. You got the blue-haired, you know, quote-unquote democratic socialists like marching in pride parades that are sponsored by Black Rock. You know, that's just, it's totally non-existent today. It's purely, as he said, just a movement to destigmatize and make available as many hedonic distractions as possible and to just liberate the individual not so much from the state, which they've never believed in, but to liberate them from the constraints of custom and the constraints of family and community and other just sort of local, you know,

semi-voluntary constraints that you're born into, all of those organic things that people are born into is, you know, is really the, that's the thing that they try to wipe out, because that's the thing they see primarily as the oppressor and the inhibitor of liberation. It's not, how often does somebody show up in a police uniform and tell you, you can't do that? It's pretty, you know, you got to do it every year when you pay your taxes and happens occasionally if you drive too fast, but most people, they don't interact with the state in that way, and they don't ever feel particularly oppressed by it. But people feel oppressed by their families. They feel oppressed by their communities, their churches sometimes, because those are the ones who are

going to hold you accountable for bad behavior, you know, and for the kind of bad behavior that the average person is liable to get up to, you know, because most people are criminals. And so, and so, yeah, there is no left today. And if there's ever going to be, it's going to have to be, a national context, a nationalist context. And that's a big obstacle to overcome, especially in Europe, you know. And I mean, I think that's, yeah, I think that's one of the ways that the right can get back. If you're going to talk about how nationalism, making things as small as possible work, then you have to take on as much as you can. I mean, I know it's a different dynamic. But taking on labor, historic labor, and making it one of your platforms that, you know, we're the ones who get, because you cannot have a labor movement in globalism.

There's just, it's impossible. But if you want to have. It's like having open immigration in a welfare state. It's like the same contradiction, you know. The minute your socialism starts working really, really, really well, but you're in a globalist context, people are going to flood in until that, you know, that curve. heads back down toward the mean, you know? And yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So if you, everybody who's talking about, oh, we need to bring manufacturing back home,

we need this, we need that. A big part of that, if you want to, what happens is once you start winning that, once you start winning that part of the war, the left is going to figure that out and is going to do the shift like they always do. And if you don't already have a grasp on labor, at least that the, you know, whoever the and, you know, whatever we call a working man nowadays, if we get back like a manufacturing economy, which I don't know if that's, I don't even know if that's possible. Then the right has to be on top of that. The right can't let the left come back in and own that because that's one of their ways into power. Yeah.

And the way, or at least one of the important ways that the right would have to do it, because you do still have to speak to people in the language they have available to them. And unfortunately, the rights language for these topics is really impoverished. But, you know, one of the ways you do it, as much as, you know, you and I and, you know, everybody watching this are probably averse to taking this as an example for anything. You know, a lot of the early right-wing Zionist writers had a lot of interest. things to say about this. They were looking at their people, the Jewish people in exile in the diaspora and very, very critical of like this, especially Eastern European Jewry, like just the type

of people that they had become over 2,000, 2,500 years of living urban existences, you know, without any tie to Lord or peasant, not having any kind of that stratification and living in other people's land sort of, you know, trying to get what gleanings they could to keep themselves going, that that had sort of twisted the Jewish soul in a while in a way and that, you know, these, you had these people who, you know, maybe they handled money every day for work back when they were in Poland. If they came to Palestine, they were going to a kibbutz, or they were going to a village and they were getting their hands dirty. And they had no choice. It was if you're going to come here, then you're going to get your hands dirty. You're going to learn to work.

And the reason is because, you know, there are certain, there's a nobility of spirit that comes from work, you know, that, that, that evaporates over a very short period of time when your life is built on speculation and trade alone, that, you know, is not only important for the social fabric, but also important for the individual soul, you know. And those are the kinds of things that right-wingers can say to, you know, to conservatives. that conservatives can say to Republicans that can sort of, that can allow them to accept, give them permission to, um, to hear the rest of the story when it comes to labor, you know, because again, we didn't even get into this, but obviously the legacy of the Cold War right now is, I mean, that's the, that's the real, um, from an ideological standpoint, like the real impediment to it. You know, I mean, you had, you have, uh, capitalism and then you have Stalin, you know, And that's sort of still the way people think about it.

And it's really hard to, to, it was really one of the major points of my labor series in general was to tell these stories in the 19th and early 20th century to show who these people were. So that right wingers could hear about them and not, you know, when they hear socialist or anarchist or something, and then realize that that guy turns a wrench 12 hours a day before spending three hours at a labor meeting and then going home to his family to spend 20 minutes with them before he goes. to bed and gets up and does it all again, that like, in doing that under conditions where he's being spied on, being threatened, maybe being assaulted, maybe murdered, you know, very often by bought off local authorities, you know, I mean, just those are the kind of hostile conditions

that these people were responding to. And so to say I'm an anarchist or I'm a socialist, people today, rightfully so, you know, understand, understandably so at least, they think of the people that Kyle Rittenhouse murked, you know. That's not who these people were back then, you know, that's just, it's just not who they were. These people were for the most part workers who were, you know, who were trying to improve the lives of their own families. And when you, you know, when you get into the 20th century, and one of the things that's like, it just, it shows you really like how dead all this stuff really is and what a NADIRA's come to, that, you know, you'll see, you'll see labor unions in California.

showing up and and throwing their resources behind marches and other political initiatives to make sure that the border stays open. It's just like Caesar Chavez used to march at the border with his people to keep out illegal immigrants and that today that they're marching to bring them in and these are their replacements. These are people that they're bringing in to like, you know, not only take their jobs but move into their neighborhoods and all these things. And the labor unions themselves are helping fund and organize and support all this stuff.

And you say, how is this possible? And, you know, it's possible because very, you know, it's kind of similar to the two major political parties. You know, you think of them as political organizations. They're really just fundraising organizations for the most part. And big labor today, you know, once it got to a certain scale, you run into the problem that all elite theorists are always going to, you know, to fall on, which is, you know, you have a third. billion dollar pension fund now. You have offices all over the country. You have thousands of employees in the union. Who's going to run that? The guy who turned the wrench 12 hours a day and kind of like it became, no, you know, it's a Harvard MBA that you hire to run that thing. And then he brings his

values or her values into the organization. And they bring their values into the organization. And that kind of trumps everything else. And the fact that there's not, you know, the fact that you can have workers unions in California being told to show up in March for open borders and they aren't just rising up and hanging the people that run their union it just shows you how dead the whole thing is

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Great to see you back at Spegg Savers. Okay. Could you read out the letters on the wall for me? Yep. D-E-A-L-L-S. Yeah, D-E-A-L-S deals. Oh, right. Yes, our Black Friday deals are eye-catching, but the letter charts over here.

Oh, sorry. At Spec Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals, like up to 70 euro off one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. I wanted to bring this up because there was a comment here from Shosaguni. He says,

Zarn Mamdani I have trouble with Star Wars names Just calling Osama bin Laden That's what I've been assured his actual name is Is promising $30 minimum wage I don't know if Shoe is trying to say that that's like

supporting labor but that's not supporting labor That's a campaign promise And I mean most of that If he continues in with the way he speaks and the way he you know his handlers operate I mean none of that is going to go to American citizens I mean that's going to go mostly to um illegals first generation and that's not how you that's not how you start a labor movement that's not that's not a labor movement at all. That's a, it's really just like a campaign promise that even if he, even if he carried

through with it, he'd probably start at 20, which is still, you know, you say what you want about what minimum wage does. I think anyone with a remedial understanding of economics knows. But, yeah, that's not a labor movement. That's a, yeah, that's just begging for votes. Yeah. And I think, you know, one thing it's, really is something that we're going through on the right right now. I think this is really the major blockage that we have. We're in this process right now of trying to figure out an identity that we can all rally around that is going to be like when you say like we need that a real labor movement and like in socialism even like that this can

only really work or exist in a nationalist context. We're in this process right now where so many of these old identities and loyalties have broken down, much to our grief in many ways. I was listening to Stormy Waters talked to Astral a couple weeks ago when they were together. I think Thomas might have been on that one too. And Stormy was talking about how he was talking about generational differences between right wingers and how the youngsters there, they expect everything to happen. now, whereas, you know, Gen Xers, like, where we are now was so unthinkable just a few years

ago for us that, you know, we're kind of, we're used to the idea that this is all going to be a long process, it's probably a generational process. And the, you know, the younger guys are very, are very impatient, let's say. And he was saying to them, speaking to them, he was stormy was saying, you know, you have to remember that, um, you grew up in this world where all these symbols were kind of when you first saw them, they were already lying in the gutter. You know, whereas, you know, Gen Xers and people before that,

you know, these are things that we all loved until very recently. And some of us still love, but we're sort of figuring out how to process the fact that these symbols are not our symbols anymore. And sort of going through the grieving process, really. And that's something that's very difficult to do. You know, it's really hard to do. I know a guy extremely prominent, conservative, not, you know, he's maybe going in the direction of right wing now, but like, you know, he's a conservative, who everybody's heard of, who told me he, during the Syrian war and our role in that, he took down his American flag for the first time in his entire life. He doesn't fly it anymore because he was just a shame. And he was telling me this almost with tears in his eyes. And I felt,

I felt what he was feeling. I get it, man. Like, you know, I come from a family of veterans. I am a veteran. These are things that, you know, we all believed in and want to continue believing in. And we're going through this process of renegotiating what is our identity. And so you have, like, you know, you have the MAGA movement, which is, you know, it's sort of, it's sort of an unofficial, unofficially heritage American movement, like, in some ways. but, you know, outwardly, and I think, like, you know, if you, if you go to most of the people who are driving the movement, like in their own, like the way they think about it, you know,

it's a, it's not, it doesn't have anything to do with race or, you know, the heritage part or whatever. It's essentially still a propositional thing, you know, maybe different than the ones that they, the one the daily wire would push, but still, still is that to a large degree. You know, you're not going to tell most people in the MAGA, movement that, you know, J.D. Vance doesn't count because his wife is an Indian. And yet on the right, you have those discussions going on right now. And people are trying to figure out, well, who is us? Who are the people that all of this is supposed to be for? You know, if we're organizing, if we're trying to renegotiate the terms of class relations or any of these things, who's we?

Like, what are we talking about? And right-wingers don't know right now. And the ones who think they know, you know, they're either a strong minority or their idea of it is much more incoherent than they like to believe, you know, which I would say the MAGA movement, you know, is in a lot of ways. You know, it's, again, it is essentially a white heritage American conservative movement that, not just for practical reasons, but for some of the reasons I was just kind of describing, you know, emotional reasons and psychological reasons can't really admit what it is. and so has trouble sort of elucidating, like, you know, the demands of the people that it represents, because it doesn't necessarily know who those people are, you know.

And so the reason I think this is such an obstacle for us on the right right now is everybody seems to be in this holding pattern, where they're like, until we figure this out, we can't do anything else, you know. If this is, because, you know, think about this. Like, if you go, Thomas was talking about Germany handling their class relations. in a good, in a, let's say a productive manner. And that's true. And, you know, under Bismarck, they had the first national health system and a bunch of other things that were unheard of at the time globally, just in terms of workers protections and social security, things like that. And it was one thing for Germany to do those things because they looked around, they knew who they were doing this for.

They were doing this for the German people. In the United States, we've always had a very different relationship to not only labor organizing, but also social welfare. Just because most of those things emerged, they were either organized by in the case of labor, or they were organized for the benefit of recently arrived immigrant populations that, you know, like all poor immigrant populations that show up on Mastua country, are very, often unpopular with the host population. So, you know, something like the public school system. People see that in Germany, they set up a public school system to train up the German youth. In America, we started a public school system because there were a bunch of Irish orphans running around the streets of New York and everywhere else, just causing mayhem. And we had to civilize these kids and raise them up so that they could, you know, be members of society.

And later on, when you get into the 1890s and the first decade of the 1900s is the same thing. You know, you get the influx of southern and eastern Europeans. And then a lot of the expansion of what became the welfare state emerged as a result of that. And so people always saw it as something that I'm paying for for these other people. And there's been a resistance to this kind of thing. And then labor also, again, even something like the Battle of Blair Mountain, you think like, what's like the, the hills of West Virginia, coal miners in West Virginia, it doesn't get more American than that. A huge number of those people were recently arrived, Italians, Irishmen, others who had just gotten there.

And so people, you know, people would literally be, they would get off the boat and they'd be told, they got a great job for you, you know, running a machine at a mine down in West Virginia if you want to go. And they send them down there. And they just, their hand of a shovel and a pick and told to get on their knees and crawl into the hole, you know. but you know so people saw the labor organizing um as something also that was that was essentially like a foreign intrusion and and that wasn't helped once you did start getting a lot of the organized crime infiltration because again these weren't anglo gangs they were Jewish and Italian gangs that were doing it you know and um and so people definitely saw it that way then um and that's something that that we've had to overcome before and and

And, you know, it was it was aborted before that process was completed. But it's something that we're going to have to do again because, I mean, I don't know, maybe you have a different take on this because I would love to be told I'm wrong. It just seems to me that so many right-wingeres, like, they almost, there's almost a refusal to pursue other goals until we come to some sort of consensus about who we are and what our identity consists of and who's in and who's out. And that to me is a problem just because it's always been hard to settle that question in America. As much as people like to think that it was always hard to settle that question in America.

We've always been in a state of demographic flux and having to renegotiate our identity each generation with new arrivals and figure out who can be worked into the American body politic and who has to be excluded from it. And so that's like always kind of been the case. and yeah I don't know like what do you think when of that idea that you know that this question has to be settled before we can think about things like labor relations or whatever else because at that point who like who you know relations with who it seems like people can't answer that question yet ready for huge savings will mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the leadle newbridge warehouse sale is back we're talking thousands of your favorite little items all reduced to From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. You catch them in the corner of your eye.

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from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited, trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Great to see you back at Spegg Savers. Okay. Could you read out the letters on the wall for me?

Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-S. Deals. Oh, right. Yes, our Black Friday deals are eye-catching, but the letter charts over here. Oh, sorry.

At Spec Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals, like up to 70 euro off one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. Well, I think that you can get to the point where, things get so bad and you see libertarians do this and as a former libertarian and all that, that you just go to the extreme of purity.

I have people tell me all the time. I'm sorry, your last name precludes you from this. Okay, that's fun. Sure, I mean, you're in a non on Twitter and I'm actually out here like busting my ass to try and defeat this regime. you know and putting my my name out there putting my face out there organizing with other people and seeking to you know so yeah i think you know the whole thing about you know like i think one of the the best examples is jade events because to me this is the way i look at jade events i only want to know what he's done what he's done since he's becoming catholic you know because

it seems like he had this weird, just weird fucking millennial upbringing, you know, with mixed in with, you know, some goth and, you know, mixed in with some white trash, changed his name a bunch of times because he's as deracinated as a lot of people are, have no idea who they are. And then he marries, he marries an Indian. And I'm like, okay, well, he became a Catholic, like, four or five years ago. I read his letter of why he became a Catholic, and I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and want to know what he's done,

what he's said since, and done since he's become a Catholic. There are people on the right who will say, well, he needs to divorce his wife and deport them. Well, these aren't serious people. They're not, they're never going to be a part of my group. They're never,

you know, I have nothing to do with them. I'm not denouncing them and saying they shouldn't have a job. I'm just saying stay the fuck away from me because you're retarded. Those are like the people when I tell them, hey, I don't have any kids. They're like, well, you can still have kids. I'm like, so I'm supposed to divorce my wife, right? Is that what you're fucking telling me I need to do, you fucking scumbags?

So I have a group, you know, I have a core group. Call it a vanguard, call it whatever you want. And we just decide what we, you know, how we want to go forward. And people who are just barking, you know, we're going to organize. Okay. We're going to organize our communities and you know, we'll decide. We'll decide who can be a part of it, who can't. And but we take a realistic, we take a realistic approach to it. You know, I'm obviously not a heritage American. I'm third generation American on one side, fourth generation American on the other. So I'm not heritage American, but I mean, how many heritage,

How many, sadly, how many daughters of the American Revolution out there are fucking pink-haired wildebeests? You know, it's like, you sort of have to, when you're, you know, it's like a certain mid-century German. When they started putting the, when they started putting the army together to fight against communism, they're like, well, we're going to have to loosen up some of the rules here because we need people. and we're going to have to, wow, like other countries want to join in the fight and everything. And these are probably people we wouldn't normally, you know, we'll trade with them, but we don't want to have that close a relationship with them. I mean, I don't know. You know, you're right about America.

And anyone who doesn't understand that America, because of all the influx that's happened, especially since like 1880, that it's hard to figure, figure that all out. But, you know, when you meet someone, you know. All you have to do is talk to him for five minutes and you fucking know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I tell people sometimes, like, you know, you think about like your, like, first half of the, like, early 20th century, like Arab Bedouin from Arabia. Like, however hardcore about your in-group you think you are in 2025, they're way more hardcore.

core. And when T.E. Lawrence was over there, like after the war, they wanted him to stay. They said, you know, you're one of us. Like, stay with us. We'll find you a nice young virgin girl and just don't go back to your old life. Stay here. Be one of us. And, you know, these are people who are obsessively in group, you know, it's I against my brother, I and my brother against my cousin, I'm my brother and my cousin against the world, you know. And yet even they could see that this, if this guy's one of us, spiritually, you know, or psychologically just one of us, proven himself, through struggle, then he's one of us, you know. And yeah, we're not going to invite his whole country in here to marry all of our daughters.

But this guy, you know, he's a valuable addition to our clan. And, you know, and having that, you know, if they can find room for that kind of thinking, you would think that anybody today, especially somebody who's actually serious about trying to organize a right-wing movement, you know, and not just talk about it on the internet. you know, you have to have some amount of realism when it comes to that, whatever your feelings about it. I mean, I would just say, like, I mean, yeah, look at somebody like Vance. I mean, he's an interesting story just because, you know, I can identify to a certain degree with, you know, like the way he grew up. And then to, you know, after he joined the Marine Corps and got back and he went to Ohio State and he got into Yale.

Like when you come from the environment that he came from, you know, drugs, mental illness, just all the kind of broken family American vulgarity and, you know, that we see in a lot of places, unfortunately. In my own line, I mean, I had my dad's side, we're all Oakey's that came out to California during the Dust Bowl. And, you know, these were people who've been through a lot. And by the time they got down to my parents' generation, like everything had just fallen apart. And we really had to, my generations kind of had to put it back together, you know,

and build sort of stable middle-class family units out of this detritus that, like, ran up against the ocean in California. And when you escape and get out of a milieu like that that you, you know, lived in as a child, and you get into a place where it's not as vulgar, it's not as chaotic and all that, you can, you know, especially at first, you can fetishize it a little bit and start to really want to fit in, like, and really, like, find ways to demonstrate your rejection of the of the environment you came from, you know. And so when I hear him like, you know, people talk about how in the, you know, he said Trump was Hitler or whatever bad things he said about Trump in the first

administration, you know, it's like, dude, this guy was like two years out of college. He had just written this book that he's going around to all of these places that growing up, he thought he would be forever excluded from. And they're all telling him how wonderful he is and how great he is. And he got caught up in that and kind of wanted to identify with it, you know. And, And over time, you know, the way he tells it, I don't know if he's talked about this publicly, but the way he tells it is, you know, the thing that really brought him around is just realizing that all the same people who hate Trump and hate Maga hate every single member of his family and want them dead. And so that was enough. You know, that's the thing where he kind of,

the light went on and he kind of realized whose side he really had to be on, you know. and that's good enough for me. Like until he proves otherwise, you know, in some way, like, that's good enough for me. You know, we don't get too invested in politicians, obviously, because, you know, we agree very much, like, on the principle that, you know, this movement is something you really have to build out from the ground up. I mean, the idea that we're, that, that success means winning a bunch of elections and taking over a bunch of political offices is that's just, that's just, if people still believe that, like, you really got to think harder about it and really take a take a look at how things have gone over the last 80 years because, um, you know, ready for huge savings. Well, mark your calendars from November 28th to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items. all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs,

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Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Great to see you back at Spegg Savers. Okay. Could you read out the letters on the wall? for me. Yep. D-E-A-L-S? Yeah, D-E-A-L-S. Deals. Oh, right. Yes, our Black Friday deals are eye-catching, but the letter chart's over here.

Oh, sorry. At Spec Savers, we've got all sorts of unmissable Black Friday deals, like up to 70 euro off one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply, ask in store for details. Do the problem is, like, people on the right, We never learned to organ. The right wing never learned to organize because the institute, your conservatives, the institutions were your organizations, you know. The military was your organization. All of the, you know, all of the things that were part of the status quo power structure. Like that's what being a conservative meant basically was protecting and acting through those things.

The left had to learn to organize at the street level just to exist. And so they're good at it. We're not. now we woke up one day and they're in control of all the institutions that we used to call our own. And we're having to figure out on the fly how to organize. And people on the right I find they don't even realize how necessary and important it is. You know, they think that something, you know, like big political changes don't happen because a lot of people want them to happen. They happen because organized groups that can exercise power want them to happen.

And so if you don't organize first, you're not going to accomplish anything politically, you know. And if you do win politically, and this is kind of the worry, and I think one that's being born out well right now is, you know, the Trump is very much like a, he's kind of a Caesar figure, you know, where the movement and really just politics in general has been swallowed up into his personality. And J.D. Vance, I think he has a lot going for him. But man, it's going to be really hard to, to, step into those shoes and keep the coalition together and keep the energy moving, you know. And right now, like, that's the best hope because we're not organized yet. And so rallying around another leader is really the best we got, but that's just not sustainable. You know, you have to have it so that we don't need another Trump. We don't need advance to step into those shoes. Like, you know, it's good to have somebody there who draws more people in and keeps them in the same

place long enough that now we're getting to know each other, we're developing these communities and starting to organize with each other. But the goal is to get to a point where it doesn't matter. Like that person at the top can be more or less inspiring, more or less effective or whatever. But really, they're writing on our coattails rather than we are writing on theirs. That has to be the goal, you know, because just having a charismatic leader to hold your movement together forever, it's just not going to work forever. And it's the same thing I've tried to tell people about the quote unquote influencer class. Most of the influencer class I see, they just want to be right.

They want to be worshipped and they just want people to know that they're, they want people to rally around them. I don't care. I just want to win. I don't, you know, it's like it's like the whole thing with, you know, with Israel. It's like, why am I going, why am I going to counter signal like the Palestinians because they're not my people? They're fighting my enemy. So, I mean, what do you, it goes back to the whole libertarian kind of purity spiral thing. It's like, look, I don't, I don't care who defeats my enemy.

It doesn't have to be me. And if it is me, if I have something to do with it, I don't even need to take credit. I probably won't even want to take credit for it. If we're being serious. But it seems like people just want credit. They want to be like a superstar. They want to be, no, it's none of that. It's like, you know, Reagan was, Reagan was not a good president when you look back on him upon what he did.

But, you know, one of the things he said was he said, it's amazing the things you can do if you don't want credit for them. Yeah, so. Yeah, Reagan is somebody I have mixed. feelings on for a million reasons. The amnesty, obviously, but, you know, whatever, I get pretty leftist when I start talking about, you know, his actions in El Salvador and all that, but, you know, that's a separate issue. But like, so I'm not a huge fan of Reagan, but at the same time, when you think about what the president is, who's sort of the high priest of the American civic religion, man, I mean, he, you can't, you can't gain Sam on that count. You know, he brought a totally

demoralized country out of the Carter administration so that by the time he handed him, it off the bush. People were in a good mood, man. And people felt like we were headed forward towards something rather than in a state of collapse like we were in. And you could say, well, yeah, but we were still collapsing. So that was in a movie. Someone saying, someone saying you won't talk about Israel. Apparently you've never, you've never talked about Israel. What can I say? I got the call, you know. what was that three hours you just recently? Ah, never mind.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, oh, but you know, like Reagan, I mean, like Trump is that is kind of this way too, right? Whereas like so many things to criticize about Trump. But to me, you know, he brought people together who were previously separated and needed to be brought together. But then from there. it's on them, on us to like pick that baton up.

And remember also that, you know, that not everybody, you don't want to live in a country where everybody's a revolutionary. Everybody's a political activist. That is a shit country. Like when you say, oh, that guy just wants to watch sports ball and grill, it's like, dude, in a healthy country, that's all anybody wants to do. And our job, you know, as people who are engaged with this stuff, is to create the country that that guy can just watch sports ball and grilling.

like in that that's fine. That's what he should be doing, you know, with his sons and with his neighbors and create the country where that's actually possible. It's what we want him doing. You know, most people, and you talk about with the influencer class, most people are not psychologically cut out to be involved with politics. You know, it engenders paranoia. It engenders, like, hard, us versus them, hostility, purity, spiraling, all these things we see all the time. I mean, even people who are in the game, like, deeply, you know, and for long periods of time, even generationally, they sometimes they go off the deep end because it's, you know, not everybody is sort of psychologically cut out to certainly not to be involved in it 24-7

the way a lot of people are today. And similarly, like with the influencer class, like people are not psychologically and emotionally prepared to deal with the pressures of like, I have, like even think about like how many people on X have five or 10,000 followers, right? And we think that's nothing, you know, I mean, there's millions, all these huge accounts, whatever. But dude, like, for most of history, if you were writing something or saying something and five to 10,000 people were seeing, you were a celebrity, you know, you had a public, you know, that you were responding to. And it was in ways that were probably beneath your consciousness, shaping your own sense of self and the way you behaved in ways you weren't even. This is a very difficult thing to do. It's why so many celebrities go nuts, especially child celebrity.

And today, you know, we have a ton of people out there who are essentially political activists, I guess, who have larger publics than, you know, the most important member of, you know, the Communist Party of America probably had in 1950, you know. And we're talking small influencers have that kind of reach and just sort of the social pressure on them that comes with all that. And so, you know, he's always just, you know, it's him, don't get down on people when, you know, when you look at them and they're just sort of the normie who wants to grill. He's a constitutionally conservative guy. He wants to take care of his family. He doesn't like crime and all that. But that he won't go as far as X, Y, or Z, like whatever your hang up is. Because you don't want everybody doing that.

You know, you want to build enough trust with people that they'll give you the keys to power and say, go do what needs to be done. not on our behalf, but you don't want, like, every member of the population chirping in their opinions of how you're doing, like, every single day, you know? And, you know, I would love for somebody to get out there and, you know, create a country that I would never have to think about politics again. I think, and I think, honestly, like, you know, people have all these theories about why representative or democratic systems eventually die out and turn to authoritarian And a big part of it. I totally believe this.

I don't know if I can support it historically. I have to really research it, but I, intuitively, I just believe it, is that people just get tired of it. People get tired of representative politics. They're like, I don't want to argue about this shit anymore. Fine. Somebody, you make the decision. And then I don't have to fight with my neighbor about it anymore.

People eventually get to a point, Rome got to this point, you know, where a country that prided itself on, you know, the motto of no kings, they welcomed a Caesar, you know, and they saw the, they saw the development of their society in the years immediately after the rise of the empire is a vast improvement on the chaos and civil war that they didn't experiencing for over 100 years, you know? And that's the kind of thing that, what, you have to look at Russia with Putin, going from the 90s to Putin, Germany, going from Vimar to the national socialists. At a certain point, people are like, I don't want to argue with my neighbors about this anymore.

I don't want my neighbors to hate me because I think this. And I don't want to deal with any of that. So take these questions out of our hands, you know? I think we're going to end it right there. Let me read some super chat. See if what are these. Okay. So Daniel Robinson says, Daryl, I believe, an agrarian revival rewilding movement is the first step to restore America.

all this hopium for re-industrialization won't benefit us. Local food production equals localized capital. I know you do some growing now. Yeah, I'm a small farmer up here to the extent I can manage it. Yeah, look, I'm all for that. I think that the difficulty with it is, you know, you have to be able to support yourself, not just yourself, but if you're going to talk about a political community, you know, has to be able to support itself resource-wise. And the agricultural economy today,

man, it is, it is, it is really hard to make a living in that sector unless you're a large, like large-scale industrial farmer or a specialist of some kind. It's just, it's really hard. I'm all for people should be doing that like Thomas said cities are dying you know people can generate income in ways that are allow them to be more geographically distributed and I anybody wants to go out there and buy 10 acres and start growing their own food and have a cow on a pick 100% that's awesome and and I hope more and more and more people do it um whether that could be uh the basis of um a political community at least in any kind of like near future situation. I don't know. It would, I mean, you know, it's tough because we see this like up where I live

in northern Idaho. I mean, on one hand, it's what I love about it. It's the fact that all the people who are here, including the people who came from California and wherever else who are up here now, you know, they came because they wanted to be a part of that sort of small L libertarian adjacent just leave, leave us the fuck alone, you know, like kind of thing. And I love that. That's like sort of the American thought you can have in your head being a country that that sort of developed its identity on the frontier, you know, where people, you know, this is kind of coming back to bite us now where people, you know, we've developed this tendency in the United States that if you don't like what's going on in the place that you're living, you don't put your, you know, your stakes down

in the ground and say, well, I'm going to fight for this place. You say, well, I'm going to move to a place where, you know, I don't have to feel this way. And that's what people did. You didn't fit in in New York. You moved to Chicago. Didn't fit in Chicago. You kept on heading west. All the crazy people piled up on the West Coast when they hit the, hit the ocean. But there's very much this sort of like as long as it's not in my direct backyard thing to do. So when you get to a place like where I am, you think this is like conservative heaven, northern Idaho. And it is. And it's like one of the reddest parts of the country. But it just completely disorganized politically for the most part because people are geographically. distributed and they have this mentality of like, I'm here so that I don't have to do all that,

you know, and so that I like the fact that my neighbors are far away and that I don't see, you know, just crowds of people all the time. And so that, you know, it's hard. Yeah, I think if, I hope that guy's right. I'll put it that way. I hope he's right. I would love to see that. Have you done a series on the Pinkertons? No, they just come up a few times like in the labor series. I probably should do at least a full episode on it though. I mean, it's just, you know, it's one of those organizations that, like most things that are mythologized in the direction of good or evil are much more complicated than the history that comes down to us from sort of, you know, motivated sources. But on the balance,

I think, you know, if you're an American, you should spit on the ground every time you hear the word Pinkerton. I mean, it's just, you know, these are these are people who, We're hired, whatever the complications of it, these were people who were hired to prevent ordinary workers from striking and from fighting to give us the world that we take for granted today, or at least, you know, it's obviously changed a lot in the last few decades, but, you know,

people out there who think that we would have been and that just economic changes and sort of the broad forces of history would have given us the eight-hour work day and the 40-hour work week and, you know, work safety regulations and things or at least, you know, requiring all of these kind of things that those things would have come about on their own are delusional. We would all still be working 14 hours a day and living in a hovel with seven other people if those people didn't put their asses on the line and get beat down and threatened and killed by Pinkertons for decades before, you know, for that stuff finally came to a stop.

And so, no, I haven't done one yet. I hate Pinkertons. I hate all of. And again, like, after I did my Battle of Blair Mountain episode, it wasn't Pinkertons down there. It was a different organization. But I got a, I got an email from somebody who lives down there who's like grandfather or great-grandfather was one of those mine guards. And he was the people, he was one of the guys holding a rifle fighting the miners. battle of Blair Mountain. And he sent me a recording that his dad, his grandfather rather made

shortly before he died talking about that whole incident. And it was compelling, man. Like, you know, he had a story to tell too. You know, the miners, obviously a bunch of rowdy, crazy ass men, like half-immigrant miners out there. And a lot of them, you know, they weren't easy to handle, you know. And he had a bunch of crazy assholes out there and you needed a security force and this is who they had because West Virginia wasn't going to provide. And so there are all these complications, but on balance, you know, they were the ones who were holding a gun standing in the way of ordinary American people sort of being able to have a life that they could, you know, be glad to pass on to their children. Let me see what's next. Got a couple more.

Ski Bum says, got here late. I'm excited for the stream. Happy Sunday, everyone. Palin and Y Y YZ with a big super chat. Good guy here. It's going to be on the show soon. You are so right, Darrell. Who is we?

I'm trying to get my peers to ask the question. Whose house is this? We see the party getting out of control, but all our grievances are based on this being our house. He says it's time to start from scratch. My camera that is supposed to track my face is losing its mind right now. Yeah, I had one of those.

I got rid of it. Yeah, I don't move around enough to probably need. What are you looking at my hand for? What is going on? Here, hold on. I'm still here. Just turn my camera back on somehow. However that works.

Oh, there we go. You're here? Yeah, I'm here. I just can't figure out how to turn my camera back. It should be a button down at the bottom that looks like a next. Yeah, there you go. Got it. Boom.

There you go. Boom. All right. All right. Yeah, so, yeah, Paladin's saying it's time to start from scratch. And, you know, I mean, literally you're going to have so much disunity, then I guess you have to. I mean, if you're, if, if the fight, I'll put it this way. If the fight is directed at the people who are supposed to be on your side and not the enemy at this point,

then you have a problem. And that's why, you know, I'm associated with the organization who, we know who the enemy is. We just focus on that. We focus on ourselves. We focus doing, you know, doing our thing. And, yeah, we're not going to, you know, we're not going to worry about what other, all this infighting about, you know, fighting everyone except the enemy.

I mean, look at, look at, um, it, it, If you look at a couple groups that fought against an infiltrated enemy or their perceived enemy, they always waited until they won to figure out who they couldn't live with that was on their side. Yeah, and don't direct all your artillery, you know, at the other side's pawns either. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a natural thing to do in some ways, you know, you think about immigration as an obvious example, where, you know, these are the people who are actually coming in and transforming your neighborhood and stuff. It's easy to develop, you know, negative feelings toward the people you're seeing on a day-to-day basis do that. But these are, these are pawns in the enemy's hands, you know, reserve your hatred for the people who are actually inflicting this on you, you know?

And, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, think about basic difficulty. Like I told this too, I want to say, I was maybe talking to Scott Greer about this one time in a back-and-forth sort of dialogue article that we did with some others. He was pushing sort of this, the strict kind of hard line, white nationalist line, you know, and it's like, look, man, I could tell you, I agree, homogenous society is preferable to live in than a non-homogeneous one. I can tell you that if you could snap your fingers and you got your way, that this country would probably be better to live in a million different ways. Fine. All that is great. But this is the real world that we actually live in.

And the idea that you're going to get some Christian guy to take your side, if that means having to break away from, like in terms of his affinity and identity with the dusky skin guy, like sitting in the next pew at church, that's just not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. And if it does happen, then you've broken kind of a lot of what the American church is and like, what's really the point of what you're doing anyway, you know? Now, does that mean that you have to go the full sort of, you know, like the extreme end of the Catholic refugee route, you know, where they just look around the world and, you know, we're all one in Christ. And so there's no such thing as like, you know, if we can,

you know, bring in people from Catholic countries. Great. That's a more Catholic country. You don't have to go that full, you know, route. There's room for nations. There's room for people's, all these kind of things. But you have to really navigate a world where, you know, people are, you have to understand that. Like, there's nothing, there's nothing more right wing than taking the side of your neighbor over some abstract, you know, abstract. whether it's the federal government or it's some amorphous sort of ideological movement or whatever. The right thing to do is to stand with your neighbor against that if it's coming after them. And that doesn't mean if your neighbor's an illegal immigrant, you've got to go throw your body in front of the police car so they can't come get them or something. It just means that having the impulse to have your first loyalty to your family and then your friends and neighbors and outward to your community. and then later on the larger formations that we have, whether they be states or regions or the nation, but also recognizing that those things,

they continue to deserve your loyalty to the extent that they nourish and protect those things that are closer to home, you know? And so you have to deal with the fact that, like, you know, that people who are constitutionally conservative are just, they're going to have the natural inclination to have positive feelings about people who are similar to them in that sense, you know, and they're not going to key onto abstractions like, you know, historical, not that abstraction is the wrong word, but something that's just

not tangible to them, whether it's like historical heritage or skin color or any of these other kind of things, you know, what they are going to know, is that my son plays T-ball with his son, and I see him out there and we're both on the same side yelling at the same umpire when he makes a stupid call. Like that's, and he goes to the church I go to once. That's what people know, and a conservative is gonna have affinity for that guy and his family, you know?

And you have to develop a movement that can function in that world. If you end up going like Ezra and Nehemiah in the Bible after the Jews got sent back to Jerusalem by the Persians, and they find all of these other people, you know, who were Jews who stayed behind, because, you know, it's not as maybe 4,000 people that got shipped off to Babylon. It's the leadership class. The vast majority of the people stayed behind.

And they came back and they found that, you know, the people had intermarried with their neighbors and taken on some of their customs. And they made everybody divorce their wives, disown their children, all these kind of things. Like, if you want to be like that, I mean, then you're just, you know, you're living in, you're just living in a fantasy land, you know. Something like that is not going to have. happen short of volcanization of the country. And if that's the goal, I can at least respect that. You know, somebody has that as if they think that's the only path forward. But even then,

you still have to be able to build a basis for a community that, that will be loyal to each other, like when rubber really hits the road, you know? I mean, this is something, again, like, you know, you think about, like, why all these communist movements over the, like, in the first half of the 20th century, were so strong. These people go to prison for it. Rather than give up their friends, they would go to prison, you know, and you look around at the right today and you say, man, like, would you trust almost any of these public-facing movements or outfits to do that? No, I don't think anybody would. But when you talk about things like what you're doing, what a lot of us are doing, where it's not public facing. It's not some, you know, thing to draw in more followers or something like that.

It's just face-to-face person-to-person community building, organic community building, building that social capital. Then you start to, then you start to develop bonds that can withstand that kind of pressure because they don't exist now, at least, and certainly not on any kind of a scale, you know? Well, the way I look at it is, is that balkanization is, and I mean, I catch shit for this all the time. don't care. Volcanization is really the only logical thing that's going to happen, whether it's de jure or de facto. Because

you I can't believe people want to do this from the top down. You know, oh, we need mass, we need mass deportations from the top down. I could see if they were working with local police,

county sheriffs, state, no, they want to do it from top down. That shit doesn't work. I mean, it's what Sam Francis talked about, the other revolution of mass and scale. You can't do things. You can't do things in mass and scale. It has to be done in a smaller way, or it's just going to break up, you know? And then you have people, oh, what about China?

China's just going to come in and everything like that. China's on our northern border right now. I mean, it's like, I mean, they're literally. hold up in Canada. I mean, I'm sorry. I just don't believe any of this. Yeah, sure. I would love to see deportations of people who don't belong here. But it's not going to happen. I'm sorry. You know, it's like, even if it does happen, like you just have to lose one election. Like, look what happened under Biden. You know, they made up for anything Trump thought he was going to do in 2016 to 2020, Biden made up for that threefold.

You know, he was importing the population of Seattle into this country every three months for four years, you know? And so you have to, you're living in a world, you have a plan that requires you to never lose another election or to bring people, the population to a point where you have such a super majority of opinion on this, that, you know, it's just, it doesn't matter who wins the election, you know, that everybody's going to do it. That's just, it's just not realistic, you know. And, and it's questionable to me whether it's necessarily even desirable, you know, because there's certain things that we, you know, I know this will be an unpopular probably thing for me to say,

but like, Scott and I. If you're, if you're reading the comments, everybody already thinks you're a commie or something. Yeah. These are people who, these are people who cannot, I mean, they think that only the perfect, you're never going to get the fucking. perfect. I mean, I mean, look, I'm the first one. I'm the first one to admit and to tell people that there's a reason dissident politics is a young man's game. You know, I have gone kind of soft as I've gotten older. You know, I don't have the stomach for a lot of the things I would of when I was in my 20s. You know, I don't like to see people suffer. I don't like to, especially, you know, I really come to a place where I look at, I'm not talking about your MS-13 people or

something. But, you know, when I was working in Ventura County for the Department of Defense, I would drive, you know, it's all agriculture there, strawberry fields, celery fields, all that. And huge community of Latinos and a lot of them are illegal immigrants. And you drive by and it's like, you know, you drive by this trailer park that houses just tons of illegal immigrants and you see the kids piled up getting the school bus. And it's like a Wednesday of a normal part of year. It's not the first day of school or anything like that. And all there's, if there were 50 kids on the, in line to get on the bus, there were 40 parents who were all there waving at them as they left, you know, and like, you know, smudging their faces and they're getting the smudge off their faces.

And their dads were over in the field at 6 a.m. when I got there already fully at work. And when I drove home, his ass would be still bust, you know, bent over picking strawberries out there. it's like you can look at them and say like I don't we have to get rid of those people we have to just in a macro sense like we can't keep going as a country like this but like not and still not look at that person as an enemy you know and I really think that the reason people often do that maybe because I detect this in myself even sometimes is that you know we're Christian people we're generally goodhearted people and for you to get up the the sort of energy to be able to see through the difficult things that you think need to happen. You almost have to get yourself into an emotional, whip yourself up into an emotional state that allows you to do it, like these people are your enemy. Instead of doing it in a dispassionate way, you know, and just saying this has to be done and not letting it sort of corrupt you, because this is kind of where I was going with it.

Scott and I talk about frequently on our new show provoked, Scott Horton and I, that, you know, there's obviously when it comes to war, there's the physical destruction, the casualties, the, you know, PTSD of the soldiers and people involved, all the financial things and social control, all those kind of things that come with it. Keep that there. I'll talk to that guy in a minute. Yeah. Well, this guy claims that he knew Sam Francis and Sam Francis would consider you to be a traitor. I don't, I, a traitor to what? You know, that's really the question. These guys, yeah, I mean, he's an execution. He's a, this guy right here is a medieval executioner waiting to swing a frigging sword.

They're fucking anon's on the internet. I know. Dude, here's why, like, I can't be a traitor to anything that you, Mr. Rudeger, care about because my loyalty is to my family and then to my friends and then to the family and friends of those people and to my region and then outward from there. And whatever it is that you're saying I'm a traitor to is so many concentric circles to the outside that it really, It really doesn't matter. And it just, you know, the, well, let me just address this guy directly because, first of all, I've talked a lot about this issue, okay?

I've read Slaughterer Cities. I've read, you know, all of his books. I've read a lot on the topic because it was a big part. He's saying he never called you a traitor. I'm just making stuff up. So that. Oh. But, you know, look.

I one of the great villains of the 20th century to me is New York mayor John Lindsay from the 1960s, you know, and this was a, he's sort of the, he's sort of the king of the, or let's say he's just the, the poster child for the Eastern establishment, Eastern Wasp establishment, right,

that really did carry out all of the stuff that he's referring to here. essentially using the great migration of African Americans into the cities to drive all of the white ethnics out to the suburbs so that they could be deracinated and melded into, you know, sort of drawn out of these insular communities that they had been in and be melded into just American whites, basically, and lose everything. And so he's 100% right about all that. I would have been telling those people, though, look, the same thing I always come back to is you have to be ruthlessly pragmatic when it comes to this stuff. And people very often mistake pragmatism or defeatism, you know, and nobody ever wants to hear that you have to take a step back. Nobody wants to hear that the enemy has a say too.

and sometimes his say matters more than yours does in the moment, and you have to regroup. These are just realities you have to deal with. And people who can't do that, the enemy loves you more than anybody else because you're the perfect foil for him, because he knows exactly how you're going to react to absolutely everything he does.

And so he can draw you out, he can put you in the place that he wants you to be in and just make you dance for him to drive his own agenda. And, you know, what happened to people in the, You know, the white ethnics in the cities is a, I mean, it's a historical tragedy of epic proportions and one that has had incalculably horrible effects on our society like ever since then. It wrecked what local and national identity we had put together by the 1940s and 50s. It threw that into a blender and we're still living in the sort of, you know, living on the crash site of all that. And so he, I get all that.

But what would I have told people, you know, go join your local white citizens council and go out and protest and riot that you think that the that the forces who were driving all this didn't lick their chops every time that happened. You know, that is like, and again, I understand why people hear that is some sort of defeatism because then the next question they ask is, oh, so we should just do nothing because that's always. you know, everything we could possibly do is just what the enemy wants us to do. And that's not the case, no, but you have to have a certain amount of patience with these things and understand you're trying to reverse historical forces that started long before you were born. And this process, if it is going to be seen through, is not going to be seen through probably in your lifetime. You know, this is something your son's going to have to pick up and carry forward. And people today, you know, they don't think generationally.

They don't even think past the life stage that they're currently in. Everything has to happen in this portion of their life even, you know, in order for it to have any meaning for them because they have to live their lives in this world. And unless this happens, I can't be happy in this world. I can't look around, you know, this world and go live a happy life. But guess what, man? Like people living on the outskirts of Rome, 20 years, before it got sacked and the whole thing came to an end, they were still finding ways to be happy

with the world and live happy lives and not walk around, pissed off and angry all day that things weren't going the way that they wanted to. And so that, and that's the worst case scenario. I don't think we're in that, in that kind of a scenario. You know, you have to, you just, you have to put this stuff in its proper context and be willing to be pragmatic when you have to. And right now, you know, it's like the people who want some kind of a, you know, they want state collapse or revolution or whatever. It's like, Do you really think that you're in the best position to seize the reins right now, if that were to happen?

Or is it all of the people you hate and who are ruling over you right now, but are organized and well-funded and well-resourced, they're going to be the ones in positions to pay the guys with guns to come to your house, not the other way around? Like, that's not the kind of, you know, you have to build this stuff up from the bottom, trying to skip that part so that you can then take action, you know, to create the world that you want when you haven't gone through the process of building the social capital at the bottom. It's fragile at best, and that's if you ever got it through, and you won't, you know, because the people who are organized and have a stake in the current system are going to fight and they have more bodies to throw at you than you have to throw at them. And so it's just pragmatism, man.

And I get the criticism. I honestly, I don't reject the criticism. because it's a fine line to walk. It's hard to tell people in a Christian country who are basically decent people as Americans generally are when it comes to things like human suffering. That if you're sitting in a room and you're sitting at a table

and across the table from you is this family from another country and they're there and they have a story to tell. You know, it's, the country is war-torn, it's crime, whatever it is, and they just want to come here, and they just want their kids to be able to be safe and them to be a productive member of a functional society. Like, there's a part in the vast majority of white Americans on the right, and especially ones who still have a vestigial Christian temperament to them, that, like, no matter what your answer is to them, you feel for those people. And it hurts to say no in a way. And the only way you can convince yourself almost to say no is that you know that outside that room behind that door

is another family and a line of family stretching off over the horizon and the millions and millions and millions. And at some point, you're going to have to say no. And so you have to start now. But still sort of having to overcome a certain amount of emotional resistance to that. And you shouldn't shut that off in yourself. You know, that's something, that's a positive thing in you. It doesn't mean you don't have to overcome it.

You do. But don't turn off that compassionate part of yourself that makes it hard to see. Like, you know, people who are not hostile criminals themselves, like, you know, suffering because of a policy we have to enact. Again, it doesn't mean you don't enact it. But that part of yourself that feels something about it, that's a good part of yourself. I want to address what I put up on the screen right here. Hairway to Stephen, who I muted for about 10 minutes because he kept bringing up Israel, and we're not talking about Israel,

says, this is my home, though, and I refuse to deny the innate notion to defend my home. Great. Okay. So, look, man, I'm ideological, too. There are a lot of things that I'm ideological on. But just understand, you're making that statement right there, all it is as a statement, all it is is words on the screen. You don't have the power to stop what you're trying to do right now. Whoever is in charge right now doesn't have the will to stop that. If you're trying to, if you're not trying to figure out a way to get through all of this,

that's realistic other than words on a screen, other than, I don't. I mean, like literally, this is what I see all the time. I just see these comments come to me and it's all, okay, I get it, man. I get it. But you don't have the power to do anything. It's just your belief at this point. And what is it? What are you doing?

You're just basically like, if you tell me that you want me to come here, that you want to come here on the stream and like pour this stuff out because it makes you feel better, that's all you're doing. You're just trying to make yourself feel better. You're coming here to make comments hoping that someone agrees with you. And yeah, I do agree with you, but this ain't it. It ain't going to happen. You don't have the power to do it. No one on your side has the power to do it. The people in charge don't have the will to do it. You know, and, you know, trash can and Jackson says, why does everyone have a right to a better life but us? I don't have a bad life. What are you talking about?

Do you have a bad life? Seriously. What are you talking about? I mean, I was talking on the street on the other night about how, you know, my wife's nieces and nephews are in their early 20s. They all have good jobs. They're buying houses. They're getting married and buying houses.

Okay. I mean, sure, that's anecdotal. But why aren't you doing? it. They're white, they're white heritage Americans. They're 13th, 14th generation Americans. Why aren't you doing it? You know, to answer Steve directly, I mean, the thing is you can, you don't have, you do not have the ability to defend your home from the forces we're talking about. You and your community might have the power to defend your homes, but you have to build that community. Chances are you don't live in one right now. Maybe you do. Most people don't.

you know, when we went through that process of breaking up the ethnic enclaves in our big cities and those people moved out to the suburbs and all of a sudden, instead of being in an Italian neighborhood, you're an Italian-American dude with a mixed-breed neighbor and a, you know, over here and an Irish German Serb over here and everybody, you know, all those things have been broken up, you know, that, that rebuilds. a community that's actually capable of self-governance and self-help and that can actually mobilize to defend itself in any way, that is just, that is the prerequisite to anything else happening. You know, look at the people back in like, you know, in the 1960s when all this forced integration stuff was going on. I mean, these were, these people were motivated to defend their communities. They were organized, you know, you go back to like, into Newark or in parts of, like,

like in East Brooklyn, other places, East New York, when this started to happen. You had Italian guys, Jewish guys, Lithuanian guys, all coming together and like physically fighting in the streets, not only with people coming to their neighborhoods, but with cops. And these are people who were organized like by the local parish, you know, who would live, They lived among people who had watched them be born and that they would watch die. And they would care. This was their real community. And they were very motivated to defend it.

And the state still overran them. And you have to understand you don't live in a community like that now. And you individually are not going to defend shit. You're just not going to. I mean, you know, if Randy Weaver couldn't defend his. his home and his family, then you're certainly not going to either. You know, you need a community. You need people at your back. That's the only way you get through something like this. And again, unfortunately, or maybe not unfortunately, maybe it makes it easier to really kind of get back to

first principles and start from scratch, you know, if it's this way. But, you know, unfortunately, like, we're at the bottom rung just getting started on all this right now. And you have to go through it. And it's not particularly rewarding, you know, on a results level. It's very rewarding on a personal on a social level, you know, to actually start to build these bonds with other people and build that social capital in your life. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to see big, like, political victories that you're going to see on TV on a daily basis. That's just not the realm that we're fighting in right now. Right now, we're fighting on the realm that's not on TV. So that by the time it hits TV, there's a base underneath it that can actually support that and

drive it, you know. And, but look, man, I don't want to, like, whoever it was that said, like, deserve a better life. Look, I get it, I get it, man. Like, you know, people who, uh, are young today and are looking around at the world that they've been handed and it's going to, you know, be there soon enough. Um, I understand the rage and despair that, you know, that has to come with that, you know, because, I mean, what is it you're being promised? What is it that you're being like, like, invited to participate in? You know, what's the meaning structure that, you know, any society has to provide its people with safety and all of these kind of things? A society, a community really has to provide people with reasons outside themselves.

to get up out of bed in the morning and go do things. That's what a functional nation or a functional religion has to offer people. And what are we offering these young guys? You know, okay, yeah, you can still go out and get a job. You can do this and you can still buy a house and all that. But like, what are we asking you to be a part of? That shit has been thrown into the blender over the last, you know, 50 to 100 years. And so I understand people who go into this world and they're looking around and all they feel is rage.

And when they hear people like me saying you need to take a step back and take a breath, that they just react with anger to that. I understand. I do, I do get it. Yeah. I mean, I get it too.

You know, I think that people have, have this tendency to look at a lot of the, the stuff that I read and a lot of the, and think that I'm like purely ideological. I'm not. I mean, I,

you're going to have to, you're going to have to work with people you don't want to work to work with in order to get, in order to get things done, you know, I mean, you, when you look at some of the alliances that were,

were made in history so that you can defeat an enemy. You know, you're, you protect yourself the best you can from whatever they're throwing at you. But it's like, it's like England. Everybody, like, there are so many people over there who are like completely anti-Muslim now. And I'm like, okay, you need to protect yourself if you're living in a dangerous situation. But you can't forget why that happened and who did it to you. Because if you really want to win, you're going to have to defeat them because you could get all the deportations you want. But if you don't get rid of the people who caused this, it's just going to happen again.

You know, it's like you're, they, people are so focused on one thing and they think that this one silver bullet will solve everything. And they don't realize that this is like, I mean, you know, it's like Tom, I understand why a lot of people, you know, go after Thomas. Thomas is probably one of the most pragmatic people on the planet when it comes to what's happening. You know, I know people hate him because he goes into the hood and interviews Black guys. Like, you know, it just goes and talks to Hood black guys because he wants to know what's going on in that world. And he accepts that that they're here and that they're not getting shipped to Liberia. You know, he's, he looks at the world in a way where he's like, well, this country's probably going to be around for another 150, 200 years.

And we need to find people. We need to find our people and, you know, gather together. And people are so stuck in this, well, if we get the range of power, at the, at the national level, well, people have done that. Nothing changes. If you're doing that, if that's your goal, you're basically the same as a person who was protesting cars on behalf of, you know, horse and buggy drivers, this government is an anachronism.

Okay, they still can do things that can harm you personally. But this, that, if that's an anachronism, it's not the answer. Getting your guy elected president and then he's going to turn, he's going to have this, you know, this Austrian painter turn where he's going to, that's not going to happen. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's not going to happen. You're actually going to have to do something.

And, you know, if you, if you want to come into my comments and throw all these, platitudes and, you know, all of this purity spiraling and it's only going to, it's only perfection is the only way we're going to get through this. We have to have, I have to have my perfect thing or, or it's not going to solve this and I can't have a happy life and all these opportunities are being taken away from me. I fucking get it. Okay. No one is coming to save you. You're going to have to do it yourself. You're going to have to find people who have that same mentality of we're going to have to do it ourselves, guys. We're going to have to, like Warren McIntyre says, build what comes next because we're not going back.

Well, because. Yeah. And the real because is that when this anachronism does start to, does begin to stop functioning, I would say it already has. If you haven't built that out, you're going to be a victim of that process. You're not going to be a beneficiary of it. People think, I remember when I was a libertarian, people were like, we just need the state. You know, a narco-capitalist are like, we just need the state to collapse. And then what, everybody's going to become a narco-capitalist? Why? What did you build?

What? No, you know who's going to be in charge? The person who can feed people. That's who's going to be in charge. The person who can feed people. Oh, okay. So you want to start a movement in this country? Start feeding your neighbor.

But my neighbor is brown. Yeah, but he's loyal to you. Like, you know, if he's loyal to you because you were there for him at a critical time, I mean, you know, the idea that that should draw some kind of hard line of demarcation is just foreign to me, I guess. I mean, one of the things that I, there's this great little book. You might have read it before. If you haven't, you should. It's, I can send it to you if you want, called dedication and, oh, gosh, it's been too long.

So it's by a British writer named Douglas Hyde. And he was a leader in the British Communist Party for like 25 years. He was the editor of the daily worker. So he was up there, dude. And in 1948, he converted to Catholicism and left communism. And the little book, it's like 100 pages, is based on a series of talks he gave to some Catholic lay leaders in the early 60s. That's a cultural revolution was starting to take hold. And they were starting to see their Catholic influence on people starting to slip away as they moved into all these other hedonistic movements and other things.

and his series of talks was basically not to talk about the evils of communism. It was to tell him what the communists did that was right in terms of how they developed their people, how they recruited and developed their people, and what the church was just getting completely wrong, you know? And this is basically, like a lot of this is what he talked, a lot of what you just said is what he talked about is, you know, he actually says early on in the book that when he was in the movement, a lot of their very, very, very best people had gone to the church first and said, I'm here, I'm ready, I want to change the world, I want to improve whatever Britain, just, you know, what do I do? What can I do? What can I do? And they would say, oh, that's awesome. Show up a half hour early on Sunday and help set up the chairs. And so then they went to the communists and the communists said, well, how much energy you got? Because we want that and we want 50% more. And if you're not,

out for that yet, we'll train you and we'll get you set up. And one of the first things that they would tell, like a new recruit or somebody who was coming into the movement is they'd say, like, you know, they would want to come in and start agitating. They would want to start, you know, being like an organizer or a writer. They want to do something like that they associate with the activism itself. And they would, for the first six months, for the first year, sometimes longer, they would say, no, no, no, no, no. If you want to be a useful member, of this movement, the first thing you're going to do is go get your life in order. The first thing you're going to do is go back to work tomorrow at your factory and start

the process of being the baddest motherfucker in that factory that everybody looks to for leadership and guidance that everybody knows is on point. And then you need to be that in your community. And then you need all of these other things so that when you do start to talk, people shut their mouths and fucking listen, you know? Like that's your whole first job is get your own life. in order, your family's life, your work life, all these things in order to start from there. Do you know who else did that? Do you know who else said this to people when they came to him and said,

I want to join your movement? Yeah, George Lincoln, George Lincoln Rockwell. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, because it's a basic principle that when you say it out loud, it's like, oh, yeah, obviously. But, you know, what that involves is a lot of non-glamorous work that, you know, It is sort of preliminary background work to like the real heroic stuff, you know. But this is the stuff that the heroic action is built on, you know.

Otherwise, it's the other side that's going to have the heroic action, and you're going to be on the wrong end of it, you know. Let me say I got a couple more super chats. I really appreciate you putting this, putting the time in on this one. Oh, yeah, of course. Oh, thank you. Daniel Robinson says, Daryl's point about the story of the USA mapping to history. of Chicago. Another story can be told of USA considering St. Louis ceded that role to Chicago as

U.S. primary transport hub and wealthiest city. Somebody should write that book, man, like a real deep, like historical study of doing it like that. There are a few good ones on Chicago. I think ones like, I think it's called Nature's Metropolis that kind of does that, but it is isolated to Chicago. It doesn't kind of take into account the transfers of political and social and economic power over time. That's very interesting. He had another super chat where he said, the history of how true world-class cities like St. Louis or Buffalo

went in under 100 years from the wealthiest, most grandiose cities to total abomination in the 20th century also tells our story. Yeah, I tell people all the time to as much as it might not be on their radar. if you want to take a vacation like somewhere in the United States, go check out Detroit. And people say Detroit, it's a hellhole. And yes, it is. Go downtown and look at the Fisher Building. Go look at their public library.

Go look at all the stuff that was built when Detroit was not the wealthiest country in the city in the world. It was the wealthiest city in the history of the world. Magnificent place. And the great thing is, the hopeful thing is maybe all this infrastructure are still in place for the most part. You know, a lot of it anyway. A lot of it they've replaced and demolished with ugly shit. But like

a lot of this stuff is still there and available to be recolonized if we can actually get our act together. But, you know, yeah, he's right though. That like the decline of these cities, I mean, that really is the story of the 20th century in a lot of ways. It was the, you know,

like Spangler talks about in the intro to decline to the West. He says, you know, civilizations enter this period of megalopolis where the city just swallows up all economic, social, political activity, everything. You compare that to like, you know, under feudalism, you know, the lords might all be at court or something, but their power base was distributed in the countryside. And all of a sudden, you get into this modern, into this modern era. And, you know, again, it applies to all civilizations, he would say,

but all civilizations have their own modern era. The countryside sort of becomes desiccated as the cities just suck all the life energy of the region into themselves. And that really came to its apogee in the early 20th century. And then now we're kind of living through, you know, their decline and all of the sort of, you know, the social and economic consequences of that. You know, just think about how amazing it is that there's, at least the last time I checked, there was a net inflow of blacks coming from California and the Northeast and all that back to the south. You know, there's a remigration of blacks to the south. I mean, this is, there's, there's probably no more, no more clear and obvious sign of the decline of American cities than the fact that that is taking place, you know? And, yeah, I agree with him 100%.

So it's one of the things, it's one of my fixations, actually, is that very topic. All right, man, I'm going to let you go. Let you get you, let you go back to the World War II series. Yeah, actually, it's my Sunday. I give my wife my Sundays and she's got a big list of work for me to do outside. Well, give her my condolences. Appreciate that, brother. Thank you.

Yeah, I heard you talking about that on your, what you dropped yesterday. I listened to your substacks because they have that function where even the ones you write, I can listen to you. So I listen to it with that weird voice, not yours, obviously. But yeah, yeah, but thank you. And I appreciate it. and everyone goes subscribe to the Martyrmaid. If you do want to do a follow-up with Thomas, I'm happy to do that. In fact, he might want to, we could just talk about Chicago

or talk about something like the Haymarket Affair in Chicago that he probably knows a lot about. And I can talk about as well, whatever you want to do. So I'm always here for you, man. We'll do it. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. And even the ones we disagreed with.

Thank you for coming by. You take care of it.