The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1281: A 'High-Trust' Culture Helps for SHTF w/ Jay Burden and Karl Dahl

Episode Date: October 19, 2025

67 MinutesPG-13Pete invited Jay and Karl to discuss gun show culture, as well as the mindset and weapons necessary for an SHTF scenario. J's SubstackJ's PatreonJ's YouTube ChannelJ's Find My Frens PageFaction: With the CrusadersKarl's SubstackKarl's MerchOld Glory Club YouTube ChannelOld Glory Club SubstackOld Glory Club WebsitePete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's Substack Pete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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The Pekingona Show.com. Everything's there. Well, it sounds like someone's making tea or stirring sugar in a coffee cup. That's nice. I have two professionals here with me. Carl Dahl and Jay Burden. And we're going to talk about exactly what kind of guns and equipment you need to survive, like, you know, when the shit hits the fan, right?

Am I talking to the right guys for this? Yes, and if you use my affiliate links down in the description below, you too can be safe from whatever may come. My Patriots apply. There's a war for your mind. You know what I was thinking about before, right before we connected on this was just how, I mean, I shit on boomers all the time. But if you're in, quote, unquote, the gun community or you go to gun shows, there's just a warm place in your heart for these guys. Because you cannot help but experience them.

I know it has to be the same way with Burden because I know Burden lives in the South. Doll doesn't live in the South, but I'm assuming it's the same thing. Oh, it is. Yeah. And some of these are the most base. I mean, some of the best, I mean, really, the only World War II memorabilia I've ever found at gun shows was boomers who were just like knew more than, knew way more than I knew. And it's just amazing. Is that, is that your experience?

Well, there's a scene. And it might be my favorite scene. unrelated to the plot in Carl Dahl's book, where the main character after the plot is kind of wrapped up brings his war trophies back to this whole town in the Pacific Northwest and goes to a gun store to sell it, you know, just to get some cash to, you know, start his family or whatever. And that scene where, you know, it's the guys having and hauling and offering him just horribly undervalued prices, you know, really obsessing about markings. When I read that, I was like, Carl, you have been to a lot of gun shows because I have heard or been a part of this conversation for decades, just over and over again.

I used to work tables. Yep. When I read that, I was like, yes, Carl has been to a gun show. You couldn't have written it otherwise. And there's always the jovial, the jovial boomer, like outdoorsmen who works at the gun shop just because he loves talking about guns and trading. And then you have the hard-nosed, like, money-oriented guys. who also have like an obsession and something that they want to get. So yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, no, that's my, that's my, that's my, that's my scene. And yes, those, there are many fans of the era among that cohort. And they're very, they're very generous with, with their knowledge and, you know, letting you shoot crazy stuff. Like if you go to, if you go to a range, if you belong to a range that has like specialty, uh, shoots that, that are regularly scheduled. And maybe you're like, I don't care about black powder cartridge rifles. I don't care.

Doesn't matter. Go to the range and shoot like right before that. And then as all the guys come, you'll get to see all their cool stuff. And they'll be like, hey, do you want to shoot like a $5,000 rifle in 4570? You know, here you go. It's, it's, it's really cool. Yeah, they're very. open and, you know, ready to have a conversation. And you're not, you're not a serious gun guy

until you've heard a boomer utter the most famous words you've ever heard. I know what I got. Well, it's like there's that. And then there's also various internet or various like pre-internet tall tales about the vaunted stopping powder of 45 ACP. And when I say this, I mean, literally the last time I was at a gun store, I had a man who was probably 80, miss explained to me or misremember the entire story of John Moses Browning's life. And look, I'm there for the ride. You know, it's like, I'm having fun.

But he was at one point we got to, well, they needed something to kill like Maori tribesman, which I'm like, I think those guys are from New Zealand. but like whatever we're going to go with it. I endorsed. Yeah, I'm like, all right, sure. I would want to kill them too, I guess. I mean, anyone who's ever seen a Haka, anyone who's ever seen a Haka dance endorses this idea.

It's that exact lineup you've seen of the rugby team. And then some guy with a Vietnam vet hat and tall white socks just pulls up on a mobility scooter and guns them down. Two world wars. they all fall to hardball. Nine millimeter may kill the body, but the 45 kills the soul. I've been reliably informed by a recent U.S. president that nine millimeter will blow the lungs out of your body. So lungs are slightly, I guess, lower on the list than the soul.

But, you know, I mean, I just feel like gun shows, especially gun shows in the South. is that's just America when people are like I wish we could go back go to a gun show in the south go to a gun show yeah it used to be yeah yeah it used to be like that here too uh it's just the the regulations have spiraled but i'll never forget uh the first time you bring someone to like a classic gun show and they just they get the vibe and they look at you and they're like i get it Like I get, I get why you do this. Yeah, go into, there's a classic gun collectors organization down here in Alabama. In order to become a member, you have to have like two of them sign off for you,

two existing members sign off for you. It's real, you know, secret stuff. It's not like you could just go to a table at one of their shows. Be like, hey, can you sign this off for me? Sure, man, you look like a good guy. Okay, cool. Yeah, sure. You feel real important after that.

But yeah, I've never really taken anyone to a gun show who is like not in the gun community. But for some reason, Alabama, when you go to a gun, when you go to a classic gun show, there are weapons from a particular mid-century European regime that are abundant here. And I would love to see like, you know, you take some normie there, you know, some like left of center normie you know not some like real shit lib or libitard but some like left of center normie and see you know the first time they pick up like you know a p o eight and they see the markings on it and just to see their face like what they would do yeah well it's it's that's a definite part of it the other thing i love uh which i mean there's certainly that like you are in

a specific culture uh you must conform to it but is the uh the other part of that which is the extreme like schizo boomer like political paraphernalia some of which you can just get for free like I've got it on my desk but like right below my bike stand that I got at the last gun show I went to I guess in 2024 so this was before the election and there's just a guy palming I'm just handing them out to anyone and it's a fake gold coin in one of those little like you know I guess commemorative sleeves that just says Donald Trump 2024, the revenge tour.

And it's got a photo Donald Trump with his fist up in the air. I love it. I think it's hilarious. I've kept it ever since. And like, especially if you're, I mean,

if you are not a baby boomer, they are so happy to have you there. Like the young people care about guns. Oh yeah. And if you know enough just to talk a little bit or you care about, you know, anything that isn't, you know, brand new and plastic enough to ask questions.

You can be someone's best threat in like an hour. I highly recommend it. So you mentioned, you mentioned the paraphernalia guys. I had, one of my best friends, uh, is he,

he worked for a guy who was like the Pacific Northwest, uh, edgy book salesman at guns at gun shows. And he, his, he made a living just doing, the circuit in a multi-state area. And so when he retired from the business, he gave my buddy like crates of 90s, 80s and 90s books.

And then, you know, half of it was kind of worthless. But, you know, what he ended up doing is just putting together packages of you can have a hundred manuals and I'll sell it to you for 20 bucks. And so he did that to clear out the junk and then the really good stuff, like the Paladin Press stuff or the interwar memoirs and things of that nature. Or the Savatri Deva and that kind of tier of stuff. Like he had a market for that. And it took him years. But he ended up successfully doing it to where it was kind of like worth his while.

But he was just at one point like, you know, the gags. of driving this crap around forever, probably, you know, was barely breaking even. And so it was clearly a sign of love of the game. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive. By design. They move you. Even before you drive. The new Cooper plug-in hybrid range for Mentor, Leon, and Teramar.

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28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. Discover five-star luxury at Trump Dunebeg. Unwind in our luxurious spa. Savour sumptuous farm-fresh dining. Relax in our exquisite accommodations. Step outside and be captivated by the Wild Atlantic Surve. rounds, your five-star getaway, where every detail is designed with you in mind.

Give the gift of a unique experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump-Dunbeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunbiog, Kush Farage. Well, and I don't operate a ton at gun stores anymore, because up until for like a four-year period, it seems to have just been struck down. My state had really draconian and confusing laws on private sales from around, I guess, like 2019 through just a few days ago. So it just wasn't really worth it.

And so I did most of the stuff online. And sort of buying and selling and wheeling and dealing is one of the only ways you can continually own cool things without driving yourself into the poor house. Because if you're just straight buying new and keeping stuff, you can burn money really, really fast. But if you, as I and others do, sort of treat it like a rental system where it's like, would I own this for a year for, you know, $100 out of my pocket or, you know, maybe make $100 back? You're not crazy margins. You can kind of float and continually try things out. And that doesn't mean the collection doesn't grow over time.

But that ability to sort of, you know, buy and trade is one really fun. It lets you try stuff you wouldn't be able to otherwise. And also it keeps it from being a, just a normally expensive instead of, shall we say, a ruinously expensive hobby. I'm curious, have you guys had the same experience? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that I think one of the ways that we, you do that is like someone selling, you know, they

have 15 or 16 guns on the table. and you're like kind of interested in two, that's a really good way to wheel and deal. And then, you know, using the Dr. Mr. J. Burden approach, you take the optics off of it or you take some accessory off of it and you either keep it

and put it on one of your other weapons or you sell that to kind of help finance the thing. Like I'll never forget. A friend of mine was like, I got a guy he's selling a Glock 23, which is 40 caliber and it has one of those I forget who made it but it was a fairly high end

laser grip module that you pin in you know you replace two pins on the on the Glock frame with slightly longer pins and I was like what am I going to do with a stupid laser site and he's like you can get a hundred bucks for the laser site and I was like oh oh okay so I can get this you know fairly decent gun for about, you know, $235.35. And then I can either convert it to nine or just

have a 40 blaster for when that's all you can get. And so, you know, that kind of, you get into this logic. And yes, you end up spending more money that way, like up front, but then it gives you a lot of flexibility. And it's really great for wheeling and dealing then because you know a guy who's all in on 40, right? Just from going to these things. You know, he'll, he'll, he'll, He has tons of 40. Like I have a friend who has 35,000 rounds of 40 caliber ammunition. And he's just like, I bought it when it was like 15 cents around and just was like, I'm just going to go all in on this.

And then I'm just going to have 40 caliber pistols. You know, he has a bigger collection now. He's in the industry now. But, you know, you'll meet a lot of interesting people like that who are cool guys. And then you always have someone that you can go to. to unload the stuff where you're like, eh, I don't want to spend, you know, by the time on doing this, I'm spending more money than it's worth to me personally. I'd rather have a nice, you know, $1,000 pistol than like three of these, you know, $350 pistols. So.

Well, the good thing about like the gun show circuit, especially, you know, a lot of people would be like, well, you know, I don't really want to see the same people, the same tables at the gun show over and over again. But the good thing about that is you get their phone numbers. They find stuff. They'll call you first. If you know you have something that they want, you can negotiate with them. And it's just really having being able to, like if you're looking for something very specific, you know, something that may be antique or something like that. having that kind of network and knowing who likes what, you know, like there's this one table where I know this guy just wants, like, made in West Germany, SIGs. So if I come across a made in West Germany SIG, I know he's going to be willing to deal,

you know, give me a higher trade value on something that, you know, if he has an H&K or something I want, you know, we may just be able to swap it evenly. even though he's going to turn around and sell that. So it really is networking. And then there are stores you can get to know that where, you know, there's a pawn shop locally to me where if I want to get rid of something, I won't mind losing a couple hundred dollars on it just because I like him. And he like does transfers for me for literally nothing.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah. So it's just, you know, it really, really when it comes down to it, anybody in the gun community knows, if you're really into guns and you like to trade in and out of stuff, it's who you know and who you're willing to deal with. Yeah. And I mean, to that point, I was sort of joking with my grandpa about this because, you know, he's the guy who got me in the guns, but he's been doing the same thing for, you know, decades at this point. And we were kind of joking about, you know, back in the old forum days or

now there's, you know, groups on, on, you know, telegram or other places. And he's like, yeah, you do enough deals with a guy. And it's like, I don't even think I know his first name, but we've done thousands of dollars worth of business. He told me when his mom was sick, so I sent him a message. You know, it's like you develop these weird connections. And it's super helpful because it sort of provides a, it provides a level of assurance that you can't always get because it's like, well, even if I don't know the seller, oh, you know,

this guy from this group, I know he vouches for it. So you really do build a sort of social network in a very kind of organic way. And look, like I was going to say even if you're not interested in guns, but I think the people who are not interested in guns turned off like 15 minutes ago. But it is an interesting model for a couple reasons, because one, you have a group of people who are doing something the regime doesn't really want you to do. Like there are a lot of, there's a lot of friction to doing this. So you're sort of finding people who are operating at the kind of edges of polite society, but are still good people.

And you're learning how to, all right, how do you establish trust? How do you understand, you know, okay, what's someone interested in? How can we make a deal? How can we do something, you know, mutually beneficiary? Because the other thing you realize is that, and this goes to your point, Pete, there are often, there are always times where it's like, well, I could maybe get, it five percent more or five, you know, I could get a little bit extra, but I won't because I want to keep this relationship.

And comparing that to the kind of raw open market, you know, just up on a listing, anyone gets it who gets it. It's a very different thing. And I think if we're looking at a model of, you know, high trust society, that's an interesting, you know, way to look at it because it's a group of people united by a common purpose. but it depends on a relatively high level of trust. I don't know, maybe I'm overextended there, but I think there's something too. No, there definitely is.

And there's the other thing too with doing everything online is that you're paying fees like crazy. Because everything has sales tax if you're in a sales tax state or they're in a sales tax state. You have, you know, commissions for the brokers. if it's an auction. You have to do all this math in your head at all times. And sometimes it works and it's really convenient. Oh, and then you have to do a transfer. And so as Pete pointed out,

if you do business with the same people a lot, like you can get deals there. Or they'll do like two transfers for, you know, you know, 30 bucks instead of, you know, 30 each or something like that. Like you work on it. You get these deals. You let them profit off you and basically let them know that you know that they're profiting off of you. And then they'll meet you halfway unless they're just a complete mercenary.

And you just shouldn't do business with people like that. You should do business with people who see it as a social thing. Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity. grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest.

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so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Underinsurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing contents. It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly. For more, visit understandinginsurance.i. foreslauged underinsurance, brought to you by Insurance Ireland. Yeah, and even like some of the stores, a couple of the stores I deal with, it really is a social thing. I mean, look, they're looking to make money, sure. But if you hang out in there, you know, there's one pawn shop that I go to all the time. There's couches and,

and chairs in there. Oh, that rocks. Yeah, the owner, the owner has his dad in there. And I mean, they're just telling stories and I'm just shutting up. I'm just listening because you never know what kind of great story you're going to listen to. You know, so like the guy I was talking about who, um, is like really into made in what made in West Germany Sigs. This guy used to work for Homeland Security. And he's like got, he's got stories. He's telling me stories.

He's begging to come on the podcast to tell stories. Oh, that rocks. Yeah, he's just like, um, you know, just a cool old dude. And, um, yeah, he puts together like he'll buy like, um, like Polish Sporter A-Ks and then fix him up with like rare furniture. He'll find rare furniture and stuff. I mean, he's just having a good time. Sure, he's making money, but he really is having a good time. And, you know, I also have to feel for these guys and love these guys a lot because also when it comes to gun community, not everybody's like us, not everybody's respectful. They have to deal with some really crappy people, too.

And, you know, you can imagine, I'm in the South and, you know, you show up at a gun show and you know it can get multicultural and not everybody is going to have the the same um etiquette let's put it that way when it comes to weapons or when it comes to even you know talking about price or haggling price that we do and uh yeah i have to give it to a lot of these guys because they are putting up with some really shitty really shitty people all the time and it really is a high trust it is a miniature version like a microcosm of a high trust society and yeah i've it's rare very rare that i've met someone at a gun show who's selling especially somebody boomer age that i'm like i just got to get away from this guy unless it's one of those guys who will not

stop talking unless you cut them off and you're like dude i got to go to the bathroom man i'm sorry i'll be back Yeah, well, it's maybe there's an article in here how to talk to people for the criminally online. But one of the best tactics is to just like, you know, have a couple openers that you throw out, right? This works with everyone. But with gunstores, like far away, the easiest way to break the ice is look around for some sign. Like you printed off, handwritten, whatever. that explains a basic concept of human etiquette. Like, we won't sell you a gun if you smell like alcohol or weed, something like that.

And just ask the guy at the counter, so what's the story with that sign? And to your point, Pete, is in every case, what you and I would consider the bare minimum of just human decency, you know, that is just too high a hurdle. So, for example, right, I wanted my NFA dealer, the guy I, I, I, I, I, go to when I, you know, get a suppressor. There's a pawn shop in the same strip mall, right? They almost share a wall. And there's a big sign that says, if XYZ pawn shop denies you, we will too. And he's like, yeah, I have the sign up because twice a week, some guy comes in, goes to one store, comes back, he's a felon, decides to go next door and acts surprised what I tell him, it's the same

system. It doesn't work. And so like, that's a stupid example, right? But the, That lowest common denominator is it is both worrying and a good way to break the ice with other normal people who have the same reaction that we do, just to say, wow, that's not great. I don't think people should act like that. As you can imagine, my conversation starter is always like I'm looking at stuff that other people aren't looking at, like that the average guy my age is not looking at or younger. You come in sweaty and tweaking. You're like, do you have any 32 ACP? Scratch in my neck. Yeah, no, I, but yeah, so I look at, I always come in and I'll look at like new revolvers,

but it's always carry revolvers. And then I like migrate through the used or I just ask them, where's your used section? And then they're like, what are you looking for? And then there's always a million conversations going to be ready there. And inevitably, I'm going to see something. that I didn't go in there thinking that I was going to, you know, obsess over for the next couple months, but, but I do. I love that I started this off by saying that we were going to talk about one subject and we're probably not going to get to that subject. Anyone who heard me

and Tom Luongo do almost two hours on hockey probably knows, probably knows what I'm talking about. Well, actually, let's get to it. I mean, we can talk about, you know, that the Hightro society and how this is its own little culture and everything. But I don't know. I know with Carl, but does it seem to, do you ever meet anybody there who's like me or Carl and maybe not so much like JJ's a little more,

but Normie, that you're looking for like really weird shit that everybody's like, what are you talking about? Why are you looking for a Walther P.P.? everybody wants a Walthor P.P.K. Why are you, you know, what are you doing here? Why would you expect to find that here?

But, you know, gun shows are the, are the place to go for weird stuff. It's very rare that you'll go into a gun shop and find something completely odd and out of the ordinary because they just don't want that. Because it's not going to move. Unless it's an old shop and they have like a cash of ammunition or something. or they buy a collection, that's about the only time. You're definitely not going to go into a shop that specializes or focuses on new stuff and find anything cool and obscure unless it's like they're selling the surplus stuff from like Century or whatever and they just kind of have to get a bash of random shit

and see what sells. Yeah, this is why neither you or neither Carl or I are like Jay who goes in looking for like an ATI polymer AR and a Glock. I own neither one of those things. I'm afflicted with them. See, and this is the thing. Lee makes fun of me for not just being normal and buying Glock. You guys make fun of me for being too normal.

I really can't win for losing here. But to your point, I think one of the best resources, not necessarily for buying, because again, the fees are pretty bad, but is proxy bid, right? which is one of those like auction house aggregators. And to me, it's fascinating because it is, you know, obviously you have, you know, the big ones like, you know, Rock Island, you know, a couple of the other like major auction houses, but then some very small ones.

So if you just scroll by like, okay, what, what auctions are going up today? You'll see all kinds of crazy stuff. Like a big shipment of, which is relevant to a conversation you guys had about a year and a half ago, a big shipment of warlord era Chinese Mousers, like fake one just went up. And it's like, okay, I don't really want to drop five grand on this, but I will 100% look at, you know, 35 high definition photos that some guy took with white gloves on. Wait, I'm just fascinating right now. This was a while ago, but that's an example.

I mean, I think I may have sent you one or two of them, Carl, a few weeks ago. But it's things like that where it's like those still go for sale. just it seems to be not in in brick and mortar at least at least much any there was an old kitchen table ffl a guy that i knew who was like 83 who he passed away like two months after i did a transfer for a styre pistol and like the early aughts and he let me just like check out all this stuff he had 11 different uh guns that went through china he had an astroids Astra 900 with Chinese markings like the broomie copy. He had a, I don't think it was a Bestigui Hermannos, but it was some other Spanish one that just at the time I didn't know as much about that stuff.

A bunch of like 32s and then he had a bunch of the weird Chinese manufactured ones that are handmade, including one of those, is it Taku Naval Yard, 45 ACP broomies? He had two of those actually. And he had a huge Webley collection. And this is all stuff that like he bought it when it was like dirt cheap and like traded for it within a couple years. And then as soon as that first batch, which totally shifts to the landscape is gone like the price of skyrocket. Because like people find out about him through these literally couple hundred to couple thousand guns they come in. and then want them. So yeah, it's wild stuff. The only Chinese gun I have right now,

I used to have an SKS, obviously. I think every, probably everyone's had a, um, um, a, um, Chinese SKS, but I have, uh, the choker off. A way to rub it in. By the time I was old enough to buy them, they were like $500. Totally not. By the way, just for everyone who's out there. Yeah, don't buy, don't buy a, um, like I'm looking,

on gunbroker right now. There's a Noreenco matching serial number Polytech SKS that they want 1,500 bucks. What? Yeah. Yeah. And my buddy, the one I was talking about who wants SIGs and with Made in West Germany on him, he has a, he has a Polytech underfolder, new inbox, matching magazines, the magazines are in the plastic. And he asked like, I think he wants 5500 for it and I told them dude I paid less for my truck I'm not to there's no way I would ever do that but I have a I have the Chinese toker off in new inbox with matching magazines and I think I paid 300 bucks for it but in 9 millimeter in my 9 millimeter luger and it's a really smooth shooting smooth shooting pistol but um so yeah I mean we're we're about halfway

into this. Well, let's talk about that. Like, so what are we talking about? Like, what is it? You're an AR-15, maybe a Delton and a Glock 19 for shitheads to fan. Is that where you guys are going? Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes. on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together, we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community.

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Review your home insurance policy regularly. For more, visit understandinginsurance.i. forward slash under insurance, brought to you by Insurance Ireland. So, and look, here's, maybe I have too much of an economics brain when we talk about this. But here's the thing, right? You've got to understand that our guns tools, yes. And we're dealing fundamentally with a relatively low probability event, that you are going to be in a reasonable fear for your life and in a shooting.

Now, there's context to this, which is, you know, what are your assumptions about the future? You know, is your mind, well, you know, if I go out to my car in the parking garage, you know, methhead Steve pops up with a shiv, am I going to be able to defend myself? Okay, that's one thing. Are you thinking, hey, look, you know, if Hurricane Katrina 2 happens, you know, I don't want to be in a FEMA camp. You know, I want to be able to, you know, kind of hunker down. Or are you preparing for some kind of, you know, mad Max X-esque situation, you know, or the poles swap, you know, the seas rise 5,000 feet and it's, you know, a major shakeup. Well, one, those are completely different situations. And also, like, depending on your level of prepping, weapons are a relatively small part of that.

Like, if you're really prepping for the end, like, we've got to talk about water and food production and medicine. And yeah, sure, like weapons are part of it, but it's a relatively small part of it. So I think that's relevant. So let's assume that you are, you know, a guy like us, you know, you're primarily interested an immediate physical security and kind of light unrest. Like a summer of Floyd type of thing where, you know, even in Milwaukee, if you speed down, you know, the main drag during the day, you'll get arrested.

So a slight loss of, you know, control, but nothing crazy. Well, to be honest, man, like, yeah, sure, maybe a delton plastic AR and a, you know, an $180 high point with, you know, sites on both sides. Okay. It's not great. You know, you can certainly do better. But you really don't need to go much further than that. And I say this is an enthusiast who spent quite a lot more than that on guns.

The floor of acceptable, you know, has never been easier to achieve. Like you can get a perfectly serviceable AR and compact 9mm striker fired handgun all in for less than a grant. Both and both of them will work fine. Will they be the nicest thing? Will they be the most capable? No. But will they clear you over that if I am an immediate fear of my life, I have something to remedy that situation?

Yes. And so I don't know. That's a very boring answer, but I think from a pure functionality standpoint, that is the correct one. Would you like any more boring answer? Well, let me just, let me just throw this out there. So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people. I've been around a lot of boomers who have like,

really, really expensive, like 1911 barbecue guns. And these are people that just have too much money to deal with. But if you don't have that much money, don't be looking for, if you have like, say you have three grand that you want to put towards us, literally get proficient on one rifle and one handgun and put the rest into ammo. That's what's most important. And ammo in the worst of situations, which I don't think is going to happen, but who the hell knows in this world? Ammo can become, it will be currency.

So, you know, but also that ammo in a situation like we're describing will just become somebody else's if you're not networking and you don't have people that you're working with and you're just out there on an island thinking that you're going to get up on your roof with, or century 308, whatever it is, that you paid 600 bucks for and hold off, you know, 30 guys who have some training and are basically good. You just bought ammo for them. Ding, ding. Well, it's like organization and other guys is a way bigger, like force multiplier than marginal increases to your capability. right, like the difference between a, you know, let's just say $100 and a $500 red dot is not equal to having a second guy or to having a fourth or a fifth or 10th.

And look, man, like nice stuff is nice. I enjoy buying expensive things because I like it. And that's perfectly okay. But I think it's important to justify or to clarify why you own something. Like there's multiple kinds of cool as a, you know, veteran OG gun, Tuber, Notin Fancy told us. Right. There's the, The, this is for a use cool. I need a gun to shoot geese. Okay, well, I probably want something with a longer barrel and, you know, can accept, you know, double magnum shells or something like that. I don't know anything about hunting geese, but, you know, this is what I see people do. Okay, that's cool. You're doing something for a job. And then there is, I just like it. It's fun. I think it's neat. And is it practical? Sure. Like I own a crappy double-barreled side-by-side shotgun, just like the one Doc Holiday uses. who's given to me. Is it technically practical? Yes, I could 100% when presented with a,

you know, disappearing television pull both triggers and that guy would stop running away with my television. That would work. But let's be honest, I like it because I get to pretend to be a cowboy at the range. Like that's why it's fun, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's important to realize like why you own something and following down the rabbit whole of, you know, X, Y, Z additional thing to buy will be the thing that makes you safe and okay and take away your anxiety is like, I mean, that's pure consumers. Now, I don't want to say that to play the just as good game, to say, well, you know, 380 is just as good as 9 mil.

And honestly, 380 is basically 32 ACP, which is basically, and then you get to the point where you're like 22 is the same as 45, you know, because you have just kind of rounded up in a number of agreeable ways. That's not my point at all. There is better or worse, and better guns are easier to use, right? And that's, to be honest, what matters, right? Your effective ability to use the weapon. But I think a lot of people get wrapped up in that because it's fun to talk about, because it's fun to buy things and make them your own. But that is not really prepping. That's gun collecting, which is a separate, a separate activity. I engage in, but it is a different thing.

Yeah. What I would say the most important thing is, is standardized within your group. And then the other aspect of that is any weapon that you select, it doesn't matter how good it is, you have to be able to acquire spares, spare parts. Those high wear parts, of course, obviously, you have to be able to get all the springs for it because springs wear out, little parts wear out. you have to be able to work on it. So that's one of the advantages of like a Glock, for example.

A Glock 17 or a Glock 19 is extremely easy to learn how to work on it, and parts are just ubiquitous to the point where there's a lot of aftermarket parts that you should just avoid, right? People love participating in tolerance stacking, where they do all this crazy aftermarket stuff. And you can get away with it until you can't, right? So for example, like Jay loves CZ pistols. I love CZ pistols.

It requires a slightly higher level of skill to work on your CZ pistol than a Glock, for example. Like AR-15s, one of the reasons they're so popular is that anybody can go through the steps to learn how to work, wrench on them themselves. Like, you can do it. I mean, you're probably going to mess something up if you're not, like, super mechanically inclined or you don't know some of the tricks yet when you're first starting out. But probably someone in your group or someone nearby can actually work on it. So, like Pete said, you get a good, decent pistol. Like, a carry gun is different than a, like, survival pistol. Maybe, right?

Like, you're probably just fine using the same thing. I happen to, like, 32s for some of the, like, small game stuff and for just plinking, because I reload them and everything like that, like a 32 caliber revolver, light, small, handy. Like, that's different than, like, a carry gun in an urban setting or, like, in, like, bear country, right? So you have all these different considerations, but practically you're going to be better served being like, I'm not going to get a scar, you know, because of my crippling video game addiction and the aughts and teens. I'm going to get an AR-15 because I'm not going to be shooting past 300 yards. You know, this is just a for example. Maybe you will.

I was supposed to say, is this a veiled criticism? No, not at all. Not at all, even though terrain-wise, I probably, well, I don't know, it depends. There's plenty of scenarios where you have longer range. I'm just saying that the average person doesn't have to spend $2,500 on a rifle unless they really want to. And so that if you have like three grand, you're going to be fine spending a grand on a good AR-15. Like get a good quality AR-15. There's a bunch of guides out there online.

Optics are really helpful, especially as you get older. Even if it's non-magnified, you know, being able to focus like a 1X prism will make you be able to shoot way better versus like a red dot, especially if you have like an astigmatism. You know, there's all these different things that are considerations, but like decent quality stuff that you can take care of yourself and that you can that you can feed. So with, you know, stockpiling ammo, if you want to learn to reload, that's just. just another way of exploring the hobby aspect of it or like the hunting aspect of it, doing specialty rounds for more affordable cost or just making it cheaper to shoot so you shoot more and then you spend the same or more money than you did before you reloaded. Like it's, you can't really fool yourself.

There's like this cycle, uh, thing that takes place. Although I will say that reloading like non-bird shot shells like buckshot and slugs is is economically feasible to do. You can do it with really simple equipment and actually save money that way while tailoring loads to your gun. But other than that, like, you know, you're going to be buying stuff over the counter. So yeah, those are the things that you should really worry about. about. You don't have to go ham. There's, there's this crazy book. Um, gosh, what's the name of the guy's name? He wrote like, like survival firearms. Uh, he was a, I think he was an author who's, I think he was from California and then he moved to like the, the Rouge River Valley.

Some might say Rogue River Valley in, uh, in Southern Oregon. And, uh, he just, he wrote like, he would give these lists of like, here's 35 survival firearms. And it's just the most absurd crap you can imagine. Because how is that surviving? That's just gun collecting and like using specialty guns for hunting instead of like being versatile. So, you know, that's that's unnecessary unless you just do it. But remember, the group is what matters. And so when the old guy in your, you know, the divorcee,

who has, you know, 300 rifles and 150,000 rounds of ammunition, you know, in your community is basically arming the militia. And, you know, he will, he will smile as he hands those rifles out, right? Were you talking about Keith Jacobs? Maybe. Firearm survival guide? Oh, no. Published by SHTF survival publications. This is older. This is like 70s.

Okay. Here's what I was going to say, too, is that really keep it simple. For those of us who've ever been on gun forums, and one of the biggest gun forums in the country is, well, in the south is outdoors trader. They're out of Georgia. you don't always have to tell people exactly what you're building or what you have unless you are immune to listening to gun autism that will drive you mad.

Like if you build your fifth AR and you decide you're going to have a, you know, it's the barrel is going to be the outer barrel is going to be stainless steel if you tell somebody that they're going to tell you that in a shit hit's the fan scenario the enemy is going to be able to see the sun glaring off of that barrel so you should immediately remove that barrel and cut it into pieces um just just beware of that because there are a lot of guys on those forums who you know, maybe we're in the shit, in the military. There are also a lot of guys who were probably manning a desk in the military. And they're going to tell you exactly what you need to basically prepare yourself if you're living in, say, the Ozarks.

And you're going to end up spending $10,000 on a right. and have an acog on top of it and with a with a magnifier and you've just been you've been struck by a gun-gun autism guy and believe me they are out there and they're waiting for you so smooth criminal as it were yeah that's where I was gone with that but you I mean Jay knows this yes yeah I do This is, I think, an interesting point because I think people need to look at preparedness sort of in a like a pyramid structure of severity and likelihood. So, you know, okay, let's just use the kind of monopoly of violence, right?

To what degree is there a monopoly of violence? The kind of George Floyd example is kind of the base of that pyramid. There is a slight loss of violence, but if you and your boys go running around with plate carriers and ARs, you're still going to get arrested. So you can look at that and say, okay, well, I should probably have something I can conceal on me, you know, whether that's a handgun or something you stick in a bag. That is more likely to happen than a true, full-on apocalypse. We go up, you know, one step to the kind of Katrina example where there is, you know, very long, I mean, relatively long term punctuated loss of monopoly on violence. Sure, you know, you still live in a country called America and there are other places in America

where that, you know, life is normal, but where you are is a problem. So, okay, maybe that's the time when you need, you know, a rifle or something like that. But to make the jump of, well, I'll go up to the next level to like some sort of Bosnian civil war. So I need to get a belt fed and all that kind of stuff. It's like, well, and food and friends. And look, I'm not a huge prepper. I have a sensible amount of stuff. But I think that for many people, it is a mix of justifying personal consumer habits, which

is certainly there. also it is the I know better than everyone else. You know, I have found the secret formula and when the world comes apart, I will be justified. I will reveal to be right and I will, you know, slam the doors on my castle while they all, you know, scrabble and beg for me to help them. And I don't know overly psychologically it, but I think it's important to say like, yeah, sure, it's important to be prepared. But it is important to be prepared first for the most likely occurrence, the thing that is most likely to affect you and your family, instead of, you know, kind of your niche boutique, in theory about the end. It's just something I've observed having been

in this culture for a large portion of my life. So I found it. It's Mel Tappen. He published this book Survival Guns in 1976. His recommendation is literally 29 plus guns to be, quote, properly prepared during a survival situation, which is just nuts. And there's huge amounts of repetition like, you know, an M1A rifle, but then he explores all the other 30 calibers

because they're real, real calibers. And you have to have a 1911 and 45 ACP, you know, very dated stuff. And it's just like, that stuff is like, that's pretty absurd.

And what he's really talking about is like, and it's 480 pages. So what he's doing is he's nerding, out about guns and like gun accessories and making it sound like you need that to like quote unquote survive. That's pretty goofy. Like I, I think like you could do, you can easily make the argument that you can get away with like five guns on the, on the high end. And the fact that people don't think about this, that practical like moving around having a pistol is, is goofy. So here's an example of that. You know, what?

I've talked about, like, you know, stuff. People I know who did stuff in other countries. And one of these fellows, for example, was doing work where he was essentially going in and out of like semi-hostile areas. And he had a silenced 22 pistol. Well, a 22 automatic with a removable suppressor. And then the muzzle thread had an. extension for mounting the suppressor so that when you looked at it, you didn't see the threaded

areas sticking out of this fairly short 22 automatic. Because that's a big indicator. It's a suppressor. And so he could carry this thing basically in a pocket or stash it anywhere. And then he had this small suppressor for it. And he carried a fragmentation grenade as well, as well as just a utility knife. But that was his like standard loadout. And the idea was, well, it's not perfect.

But I can actually carry it. I can hide it. It might pass a crappy search. I can stuff. If I pop the slide off and disassemble it just right and put it in with like photography kit, you know, I can get away with my, I work for like Time magazine as a nature photographer cover, right? There's all these different ways that you have to think about this stuff. I'm like walking around, like Jay said with a plate carrier or a chest rig and a full-size rifle,

like a lot of the time is the exact opposite of what you want to be doing. If you have to go into town, you know, because if you think about it, people running around in the woods is a big problem. And frankly, if you live in a rural area and you have a communite of organized guys, one of your biggest problems is going to be randos just like, I'm driving into the woods to survive. You know, it's like that is not a plan and you are not welcome unless like there's someone in this community that can vouch for you. Yeah, the whole idea of, oh, this person from the city, now this person from the city may originally have been from a rural area, I know how to take care of themselves.

But yeah, that is something to consider when you are in a rural area that if something really bad happens, you're going to have to deal with people infiltrating. You may also people, you know, if you live in, like I live in an agricultural area. So I'm talking about chicken houses, cattle, things like that. People may get the idea, oh, if I need to feed myself, that's where I need to go. That's something you have to watch for. But that's another thing about community. is, you know, who do you have around you?

Who do you know? Who can you, you know, like Mike Shelby talks about the area study, doing an area study to know, like immediately when I heard about the area study and I started looking into it, the first thing I thought was, okay, I know what my community is like. And I had to get into my community. How many roads are there into my town and where are the bridges? because if somebody has to drive over a bridge to get into my town and that bridge is not functioning, you know, that's, I mean, and that sounds like retarded.

But, you know, that's like your worst case scenario is like you do not want hordes of friggin subcontinentals and, you know, subcontinentals that may have been, or, you know, people who may have, whose families may have been imported a few hundred years ago who are not friendly to to people whose skin is lighter than theirs. You may want to be able to prevent them from getting in. Bridges and mountain passes are your friend. And then you also have to deal with the fact that if you live like in the South, there are already people here who may be, you know, historically, have an axe to grind.

Well, how do you deal with them immediately? I mean, these are things who just take into consideration. And when it comes down to it, the longer you're, I think the longer you're in the gun community, and I know we have to cut this because Carl has to go,

but I think the longer you're in the gun community, you start to realize guns are not your primary concern when it comes to the kind of scenarios we're talking about. Not at all. It's the people, is to people around you and what you know, what resources you know you have in your area that

you can tap into. Well, and it's to, you're completely correct, Pete. The point is you need to be able to affect a localized monopoly on violence. So you need to have something because otherwise, you know, you are inviting yourself to be victimized. But getting from like zero to one. one is the operative part there. Having something, you know, something that is, you know, capable and reliable and can be, you know, repaired and dependent on is what matters.

But as we've said over and over again, going from one to five, going from one to 40, that pales in comparison with the other, you know, kind of like less sexy, less interesting things. And, you know, a large part of that is determining like, okay, as you guys have said, you know, what, where do you live? Or do the things? around you, assuming you're in an urban place, well, how do you, do you think you should leave? If so, to where? When is the time to pull the ripcord? Where are you going?

Who are you going to? Like, all of these things are, you know, real and relevant things to mention. Are you bugging out? Are you bugging out? Are you bugging in? Yeah, yeah. As you used to read on, you know, every forum 10 years ago, right, talking about that. But it's, it's something to think about because the point of prepping is to have a plan.

And if the plan is just, well, I'm just. I've got mine in your 1.8 acre in a suburban lot. It's like, well, okay, like, do you really for how long? You know, like, well, it's, and I say this is someone who's not, you know, who's not one of these, you know, the bombs are coming kind of guys, but to say like if you are, you know, weigh that with appropriate seriousness. I think is how I should conclude that thought. All right.

Let's end this with, we can do this real quick so Carl can get out of here. If you're just talking about for purely for safety's sake, recommend one rifle brand and one handgun brand each of you. Here's what I will recommend. AR-15 brands are kind of fake, not to say that they don't exist, but your best bet if you're poor is to buy a separate, what they call an upper and lower. There's some tax reasons for that. You're saving yourself a couple hundred bucks. Putting them together is dead nuts easy. You just clip them together.

So find a fully finished lower. Arrow and error precision is still technically in business for how long. Who knows? You can get their stuff on fire sale. They make very competent, capable lowers. They work. Even PSA on the extreme budget end, they make lowers that work. You might have to go through it and check everything's tightened, but it'll be fine.

As far as uppers, you can go to a company like Ballistic Advantage. They're not fancy. They work great. If you're looking for something a little bit spendier, but you can depend on basically forever, BCM, Bravo Company manufacturing, they are the go-to. This exact recipe will be recommended to you on every forum on the internet, not because it's interesting, but because it is a great place to start. If you like it, great. You keep it. If not, you'll know why you don't like it. You can change that in the future. As far as the

operative options to look for, get no options, 16 inch barrel, mid-length gas. You will never think about it again. It will work great. Do not listen to autismos. As far as a handgun, get something in kind of the compact range, like 15 rounds. You can use it as a bedside gun. You can conceal carry it. As far as brand, man, the patents on Glock's are running out. So you can get not a Glock from tons of different companies. Literally go to a gun store, find something that fits your hand, write down what gun that is, and then go on the internet and find the best deal you can. dude, as long as it's from a company you've heard of, it's not going to be bad. Like, really, like, bad guns don't really exist anymore from reputable companies.

I know there are exceptions, but, like, dude, it's a boring answer, but like you'll find something you like. I, I overall agree. There are, there are some states with now have magazine restrictions and things of that nature. That will be part of your calculus when, when you're looking. at guns. The one thing I will say regarding that element is that, you know, magazines can be acquired. You know, the Glock, you know, standard capacity magazine is not something that's hard to find. There are ways to do that theoretically. And you might move in the future. And it'd be kind of goofy

to dive into a paradigm, you know, that is made irrelevant, you know, by moving. But that is something that you have to consider. Overall, though I agree completely with Jay on the rifle, the rifle argument. Like, you don't have to go nuts. I would also say that there, I'll go out of my way to say that a pump shotgun as a defensive weapon is vastly overrated unless it's, you know, not just a sporter that you're chopping down. Like that was like 25 years ago. That was the recommendation.

You can get a perfectly good over-the-counter, like decent defensive shotgun. But I honestly think an AR-15 is way more, way more relevant and useful and easier to shoot for the average person. And a lot of people get 12 gauges and find out that, oh, like, the stock is too long and it knocks the hell out of me. Or they don't really understand the ammunition and it's extremely expensive and they're not going to actually practice with it. So, you know, and it isn't a magical death ray. It's you still have to aim. So, yeah, I agree overall with Jay. Like handgun almost almost doesn't matter as long as it's a current make.

like 9mm automatic, I think you're probably fine. Pretty much anything that costs between $300 and $500 is 9 millimeter is in a compact size, is functionally, it's the same gun, like not literally, but for your purposes as a beginner, doesn't matter. Just find one you think is neat and you want to shoot. That'll get you through the wanting to learn how to use it phase. And if you're a weirdo and you want a a vZ 61 scorpion semi-automatic or something, just go for it. That's fine. That's fine, too.

I would say, like, if you want to stay in the budget range of, like, an AR, the Smith & Westin M&P series is fine. Yeah, they're fine. Yeah, go up. If you want to go, you know, if you want to double that, Colt 6920, kind of hard to go wrong with that. handgun. I think like Jay said, Glock knockoffs everywhere.

If you want to get a Glock, I mean, the magazines are cheap as hell. If you want to go a little higher end, like H&K, USP, compact 9mm or the P30. The CZ P10s, they just redid the line. The old ones are like 300 bucks for very, very good. brand new sterns and funds. They have extremely good triggers for a striker fired pistol.

So yeah, that's a good idea. Also, police surplus is another consideration. If you go online, to Pete's point, like I wouldn't buy a Colt, like a new Colt AR.

I just wouldn't do it. But like a police surplus, Colt AR is probably totally fine. And the prices are extremely reasonable. Like, you can get a nice one for $6 or $700. dollars plus fees. Oh, yeah.

And I see used rock. It's probably haunted if you get one that's beat up. I see like used rock rivers for like 500 bucks at gun shows now. So. Oh, yeah. You can. Yeah. And these are all ubiquitous now.

It's not like the old days where like only, only Colt was making ARs plus like Olympic arms or like one or two other weirdo companies. So it's they're just everywhere now. So might as well just do it. I'll let you guys go. I know Carl has to get out of here. Do plugs real quick. Carl,

I'll go first. Carl doll. ubstack.com, K-A-R-L-D-H-L-Substack.com. That's where I put my articles, effort posts, link to my books, and links to podcasts. Thanks, man.

Of course. Mr. Burden. Sure. You can find me on the Jay Burden show. Carl and I have sort of an informal running live show once a week or so. You can check that out if you want more gun autism. But Jaywarden show hour long interviews five days a week.

You can find those. I mean, I'll be honest, anywhere you listen podcasts. But thanks for having me on Pete. I appreciate it. Of course. And thanks for doing this last minute, guys. I just thought it would be a fun idea. So, nice fun.

Take care. Yep. Bye.