The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1284: The State of Academia and the Arts w/ Clare

Episode Date: October 26, 2025

108 MinutesPG-13Clare works in the arts in NYC and teaches at a major university.Clare joins Pete to talk about her experiences of being someone on the Right behind enemy lines of not only the arts and entertainment industry, but also as a professor at a well-known university.Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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The Pekingones Show.com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekignonez Show. I am here with Claire. How are you doing today, Claire? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing good, doing good. So tell everybody a little bit about yourself as an introduction to this.

And, you know, I think people will understand right away that you're going to hold stuff back. But we'll still have an interesting conversation here. So go right ahead, Claire. Sure. I've been working in the entertainment industry now for almost 20 years. and I work based out of New York, but I work all over the country. And in addition to that, for some time now, I've also been teaching in the entertainment sector. And so I have an interesting relationship to not only the industry as it exists now, but also where it's going and who's coming into it. I think that's the interesting thing about what you do is, I mean, if you were just working in

the entertainment industry and we were going to have the conversation we were going to have. That would be one thing, but you're in academia as well. And really, those are two pillars of what you would call regime control, at least for like 100 years. You get entertainment and you can put your narrative out there and you get academia and you can teach kids what the narrative is going to be that they're going to have to carry. through life if they want to succeed. Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think that there's also a bit of gatekeeping around who gets to make the narrative based on what credentials you have.

And that factors into this as well. So, yeah, you told me, even though you work in New York, you work in academia, you grew up in a southern state. And, you know, have you always been? on the right and how right have you always been? I mean, people, and from what I know of people is, is it's very rare if someone goes from like the right to liberalism, maybe when they get a little bit older,

that you can see that happen. But normally as people get older and if they start out right wing, you know, quote unquote right wing, they have a tendency, especially in today's world and in what we've seen in like the last 10 to 20 years to crawl further to the right as time goes on. If they're really paying attention and if they're, if they are in tune to the culture, but also, I mean, where you work, it has to be, and the kind of people you work with has to be kind of, I would assume it would be radicalizing.

Yeah, I've always been conservative, and I think you could correctly characterize me as right wing. I grew up in that kind of environment. I went to school in that kind of environment, but I went to an extremely liberal left-leaning college. And I think I went to that experience sort of a little bit as in battle, I guess you could say. And my college experience, I think I had a lot of good interactions with people who disagreed with me.

I learned a lot about the other arguments. But I came through that experience firmly still conservative, firmly still, I would say right wing. And that continued throughout my graduate school experience and then moving to New York and joining the entertainment industry. I think that I am excited by the fact that I have so many friends who disagree with me. I think it's important to have conversations of people that don't agree with you. I think talking is a really big part of Boat Makes Us Human. But I wouldn't say that I ever had a point where I sort of became more left-leaning and then came back and found the right again.

I think I've always sort of been where I am now. And as I get older, I become quite. convinced that this is where I intend to stay. Certainly the events around me have made me feel that way, but also I think it's when you're young, I think there's a lot of prerogative to try things on, and I see this with the people that I teach and, you know, go for an idea and run towards an idea until you find that it doesn't work. And I think that when I talk to people who feel differently from me. That's what I'm doing. I'm listening to their idea and I'm turning it over and I'm thinking, well, I don't think that this works when I take this to the conclusion that I need to.

And so, yeah, I've always, I've always kind of been where I am. Well, we'll come back to dialogue, dialogue with leftists. But our mutual friend who introduced us, he said that you mentioned that your, you know, your father tried to prepare you for operating in a world where people were going to have radically different beliefs than you. Is that true? Yes. I think my father had similar experiences that I was going to have. And I think from a young age, prepared me to have real conversations, to be able to debate arguments on their merit, to be able to listen to what people are saying and parse through what it really means and to know what I believed and to hold steady to those values and to not go into interactions assuming that I was there to sort of better myself or

make progress on myself, but really just sort of say, no, I know who I am. I'm here to learn things, but I know who I am and I'm not going to walk in here and be changed just for the sake of being changed. And I think both my parents prepared me for that, but I think in particular because my father had experiences being a conservative person in a very left-wing environment, he knew what it was going to feel like. And it's interesting because he didn't really say that to me directly. You know, there wasn't a time when we sat down and he said, okay, here's the thing. I was just raised in an environment where I was encouraged to form opinions and debate them and know what I believed and know where I stood. And I think that rigorous education in the home enabled me to

get to school and look around and say, I can hold my own here. I don't have to abandon what I think just because people around me have fancier credentials than me. I can still have this conversation and I can decide on the merits of the argument what I think. Well, do the people that you work with and do your students, do they know that you're, you're not part of their team? Very few. Very few of them do. There are a few who are close to me that have come to understand this part about who I am and what I believe. But for the most part, they don't. And I think there are, I think, many who suspect, but it's easier to not have that

suspicion confirmed for them, quite frankly. And I've had some cases in the past when I was young and a little less circumspect where I was spoken to about it, sort of privately. berated about it. And, you know, I've tried not to let those things bother me because I feel like I show up to do work and I do really good work. And I don't really think my politics should have anything to do with whether or not I'm good at doing the job I've been hired to do. But unfortunately, they do. And so I found it best to not have that conversation because it doesn't yield anything fruitful in my experience unless I'm very close to that person and we have a lot of that person. And we have a

a bond of respect that goes beyond just where we're colleagues. So when you say that you're open to having conversations with people, you're not talking about sitting there and debating them. You're open to just to coexist in what essentially is their world. I mean, even if you are a teacher with your beliefs, you're really not, you're not, you're not, a part of that world. You're a little bit, you're more of like an outsider who's infiltrated, I would say. Yeah, that is definitely how it feels at times. I think that what I've experienced is that most people are not actually interested in having a dialogue about these things, right? That when it comes to political matters or what has become politicized, things like abortion,

things like religious freedom, immigration, rights for minority groups, all of that stuff, right? It's become a world where those are no longer allowed to be opinions. Those are held to be measures of worth. And so those are not conversations that people have. They're supposed to be givens when you walk into a room. And there's sort of an overt understanding, very overt understanding that everyone in this room believes the same thing because those aren't things we're allowed to not believe the same thing about. And so the only conversations that are possible is if you are close to someone and they genuinely want to talk with you on a person to person level. And they genuinely want to understand how you feel.

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Well, yeah, but it also has to make you worry about whether, you know, if you're talking to someone and, you know, they're, oh, no, it's okay to open up and everything that they could just be trying to deceive you. I mean, these are. Yeah, I don't really trust that, right? I think I'm very careful with who I talk to in the industry. And I do take a risk when I explain it to people. But I would say there's just so few, right, that fully understand. Because I don't believe people when they say, oh, this is an open space, this is a safe space. You can say what you feel here because they don't mean.

that. You know, I think in a world where we've equated words with harm and violence, we have a problem with discourse, right? Because if you believe that words are harmful inherently and that words constitute violence, then how can you have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you? You know? And when I'm talking to someone who believes that, it's difficult to know how to have a real conversation because basically we just have to agree, right? Because I don't know where the line is with that person. So it seems like last year you were doing a gig in L.A. And you had told our mutual friend that the theater kids were still wearing COVID masks. in 2024. Why do you think they're, why do you think they're doing that? Well, I think there's a couple

reasons for that, right? I think that one is that people are fearful when they're told to be fearful. And I think if you are raised as a young person in a society that tells you, the world is scary, the world is out to get you, the world is falling apart, you know, there's all this doomsday conversation. Everything is hyperbolic. And I think that we have a lot of young people who genuinely have grown up in a culture of fear, and they don't know how to not be afraid. And they spend a lot of time trying to protect themselves from things that they have been told are out to get them. You know, this could be a COVID mask. This could be speech that someone has told them is violent or harmful. This could be viewpoints that someone has told them are violent or

harmful, sex of people that someone has told them to be violent or harmful, religion, organized, church, you know, all of that stuff, right? And so if you raise a young person to constantly fear and to constantly be told, you're a victim, you're in danger, that's what they're going to do, right? We're talking about very impressionable young people. And I think for a lot of these young people, they've been entrenched in this since they were in middle school, elementary school. And they've been told that the world hates them and that they need to be brave against the world, but they need to protect themselves first. And it comes out in this sort of, I can't be in that room because I might get hurt scenario. I think we have to also, you know, you, this is a little bit of a sidebar,

but you add it to the idea that we have a lot of helicopter parenting right now. And I see it with young people who come across my desk, where they've also never really been allowed to fail. They've never really been allowed to be alone. They've never really been allowed to experience real stakes and have the repercussions of those stakes. And that just exacerbates this, right? I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt. So I'm going to protect myself against the boogeyman that I've been told I should be

afraid of. And I think that's really where it comes psychologically for these people. The distribution method of like the COVID-Metka. ask, et cetera, is just a symptom, right, of the larger problem. And I see, I see young people all the time and what I want to tell them and what I try to tell them in my own way, if possible, is what are you afraid of, you know? So what if you disagree with me or him or her or whatever it is, right? What are you afraid of? But they're very afraid. And even the ones who are not swept up in sort of the radicalization of the left, they're afraid to tell their friends that they have questions.

They're afraid to take the mask off because they don't want to be perceived, right, as harming someone. They've been told that people that don't wear a mask are harmful people. So if they take the mask off, what if someone thinks that I don't care about other people, right? This is all ingrained in their psyche because remember, the young people who are in college right now, they were in high school when this all happened. They were ninth graders. They were eighth graders. They were 13.

They learned this behavior. So I guess that probably points towards something you were talking about with how, you know, I mean, this is such a term that's been used to death, but like Trump derangement syndrome and how they're, they see Trump as an authoritarian. And of course, they never, they would never see who they think agrees with them or as being an authoritarian. They believe he's a fascist. They don't know the difference between Trump and actual fascists. And one of the things that you said was it almost seems like they're physically exhausted by getting work up over those.

They are. And I don't know how they live. I mean, I remember being a young person, right? You could not pay me to be 17 again. But I think these young people are exhausted. We hear all the time from young people, I'm just so tired. I'm just so tired. And it goes beyond, you know, I stayed up late because I didn't finish my homework or this

is the first job I've had in the industry and I didn't realize how hard it was or I'm having to hustle because I can't make enough money in this one job and I need to. to take a side job, et cetera. You know, our industry is a really hard one. It is really underpaid. But I don't think that's what they're talking about. I think that they are emotionally and psychologically exhausted by having to constantly perform their beliefs for people.

You know, I mean, the call-out culture that exists for these young people is astronomical. Everything that they do is online. Literally, everything they have ever said, everything they have ever posted, every picture, it's online. Their parents started doing it for them when they were little, and they've continued doing it since. You know, you hear that joke, Pix or it didn't happen,

but it's real for these young people. They don't believe that it's real unless they broadcast it, because that's where they get their worth, right? They get their dopamine hits from how many likes they get on the social media platform, and they've been doing it since they were 13 years old, since they got their phone. And so they are constantly living in fear that they will be revealed as somehow less radical, less progressive, less on the quote-unquote right side. Because if they slip up,

it will never go away. This is something that I cannot fathom and I cannot stress enough to people that are not operating with young people today. Nothing goes away for these days. young people. The tweet they made when they were 14 years old, their college friends are shoving that in their face daily. They're not allowed to grow and they're not allowed to change their beliefs because that's not allowed in a culture that records meticulously every micro move you make. It's really scary. It's really, really scary. I have to say that I have significantly decreased my own social media presence because when I watch these young people, go through this, it's astonishing to me how they are surviving it. And I think that they

aren't. You look at the rates of depression and young people today. You look at the rates of suicide and young people today astronomically high. And they come back to this stuff. You know, if you take a young person, you put everything they've ever thought online and then you hold them accountable for every small detail they made when they were young and foolish, how do you live? Well, I think a lot of being terminally online is also your, a lot of the people who are on Twitter, I would say very much Twitter probably Reddit too. These aren't people that have friends in real life. I think a lot of them are their friend group is the little, the group chats or the page. that they're on and they're constantly having to, I wouldn't say virtue signal because it's just

the used up term, but they're constantly having to reiterate what that they're part of the group. Right. Exactly. Yeah, good. No, I mean, that's exactly what you're saying. I mean, I'm like, sorry, exactly what I'm saying because that that is what it is. You know, you can never be enough, you know, and I think this is a good sort of, this is a good sort of relation to something that I think is also really happening, which is that in a culture that prioritizes victimhood, if you solve the problem, you lose the power, right? So in order to maintain your status as someone who's allowed to speak, right? Because a lot of this is about who's allowed to talk right now, You have to constantly be reaffirming that you are one of those people who has been disenfranchised in some way.

Right. And in order to do that, you have to constantly be signaling where you have been harmed. And this leads to a very dangerous spiral where you lose sight of reality because you're constantly having to prove to other people that you get to talk right now. Does that make sense? Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast.

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Yeah, it becomes your reality, even if it isn't your reality. There was a, back in the 80s and in the early 90s, there was a lot of talk, and I actually experienced it with somebody that was very close to me of group therapy. And people would walk out of, would hear other people's stories and walk out of there and adopt them as their own. Yeah. I mean, I think this happens, right? And I think that you have to believe it on some level, right? I mean, if you repeat something daily, at some point, you start believing it or you go insane, right?

we aren't made to live with that level of cognitive dissonance, right? And I think that people do believe it. And I think they internalize it because that's how they see the world. They don't have another option. And if they want to continue with those friends in that circle, with that level of ability to speak, they have to adopt that as their identity. I think that this is also really hard for young people because they don't know who they are yet a lot of these young people, right?

This is the first time they've been away from home. This is the first time they haven't been the child of the child. so-and-so. This is the first time where they haven't been defined by their siblings or their friend group, and they come to these institutions to figure out who they want to be, and they get told that you have to be this way. And if you don't conform, then you don't get to be here. You don't belong. You're not one of us. And even worse, we hate you. We don't want you here, right? So of course they're going to go along with it, because they want to have friends, you know? they want college to be fun.

They're in an impossible situation. Why don't you talk a little bit about, well, when you had brought up before, you know, like, it's like, I can, you know, I can have conversations with these people. I knew you weren't talking about having conversations about, you know, what you believe, what they believe in comparing or debating. But I think it's pretty, it should be pretty obvious to people. and I don't, there are still people out there that think that they can debate and like if they have the better idea they're going to win. I call those people naive and dangerous. But why don't you talk a little bit about just what you would overhear, not only on the, you know, in a college classroom, but also in your industry about Charlie Kirk. getting killed. Yeah, that was that was really that was really hard. I to say that I was

surprised would be not totally accurate but I heard a lot of people who were really happy about that for lack of a better word that they felt that this was a good thing that had happened. And they weren't shy about saying it. They were excitedly sharing the news. And there were a lot of, you know, funny things, like, I didn't find them funny, but funny things that people said back and forth, you know. It's difficult for me to understand why celebrating our murder is, okay, but again, I think it's the logical conclusion of if you decide that a whole group of people

and what they believe doesn't matter, right? And you've dehumanized them to where they aren't people to you and they don't get to count as people. Their opinions shouldn't be, are not allowed. And you declare things like, I'm not friends with any of those people, then of course that's how you're going to feel when one of those people is no longer here. It was, was disheartening, to say the least. I didn't really want to come to work that day because I knew I was going to have to see and hear about it all the time. And I sort of managed to isolate myself to where I didn't have to see and hear about it. But I know it was happening because I could feel it and I could hear other people outside the door talking about it, you know, quite frankly. And I, there are a couple

people that are conservative here that shared with me what had been shared with them. You know, these funny little, not funny little memes about him getting shot. And it was really sad. I think that I saw in my social media feed a lot of people that I am friends with, that I work with, that I consider to be friends, you know, on a, on a, on a, on a professional level, post things on social media that made it clear to me that they thought this was not only okay, but a good thing and something to be celebrated. And it just made me think to myself, if they hate him enough that they think it's okay to murder him, then do they think they should murder me, right? Like, I mean, that may sound extreme, but I don't think it is,

because I think and feel those things too. And that's what made me so sad because I realized that even the people that I thought were friends of mine, if they knew what I believed, they would feel that way about me, right? Well, yeah, it makes sense because when you're dealing with people who are operating purely on emotion and, well, let me ask you this. I had this thought a little earlier, but I didn't bring it up. How many of these people, especially young people, and it doesn't only have to be young people, you work with, whether it be in academia, colleagues, or people you work with in the industry, in the entertainment industry, how many of these people are on prescription medication? I don't know.

I definitely think that in general, young people today are very medicated. Certainly, I'm always astound. I mean, you know, at the college level, we don't, it is a pretty, the FERPA laws are pretty clear. Like, we don't, we try not to sort of get into that information with the students. And I definitely try not to just because I don't, I'm not a therapy. You know what I mean? I'm not licensed to deal with that kind of thing. And so I try very hard to sort of direct questions around that to the appropriate resources, as I think most people who are in teaching do. But I think it's no secret that in America we put people on prescription drugs at a very early age, very powerful ones, to treat all kinds of things. And a lot of times that may not be the solution that makes sense. Certainly, I think it's common for people to be on a lot of antidepressants. But I don't know, I couldn't really speak to the individuals.

I work with necessarily because, again, I try not to engage in those conversations because I think my own feelings around that kind of thing are not always the most welcome. I did have a large conversation with a very good friend of mine who has opposite political beliefs, who is aware of my political and religious beliefs about this topic a couple nights ago. It's not someone who works in the industry, but it's someone who's an adjacent industry with me. And I just sort of expressed my opinions that I don't think the one size all fits policy around therapy and prescription drugs is very helpful. I think that there's sort of this idea that, well, we just need to get everybody in therapy and we just need to get everybody on

antidepressants, right? And that'll fix everything, that everybody will be better. I was expressing that my own experience with those things has been very different. It has not been the solution for me. And it was interesting because my friend was sort of not satisfied with that answer. Even though I made it clear that I think if that's what my friend wants to do, then I have no problem with that. But I don't think that that's a panacea that we can just apply in all situations. And I think, you know, they've done a lot of research with.

young people and it turns out that the best medicine for a young person who feels insecure, non-confident, self-aware, unhappy with their physical appearance, especially young people going through puberty, you know, the best medicine is actually to put them outside away from electronic devices and get them in, you know, an outdoor physical environment like a summer camp or a sport or something like that, right? The research shows very clearly that that actually is the number one thing that helps young people overcome the natural things that happen when you're in puberty, that you don't feel confident, that you don't like who you are, that you don't think your body is beautiful, you know, all these things that we see young people being pushed into other

explanations for, the answer is to put them outside and give them something to do, you know? You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive. By design. They move you. Even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon, and Teramar.

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one pair of designer glasses. Offer ends on 7th of December 2025. Conditions apply. Ask in store for details. Yeah, well, I mean, when your whole existence is online being outside, you may lose your phone signal or something like that. Right, but you know, it's funny that this is what works. And you see it start to be prescribed more, but that's what works.

I think what frustrates people about this is that a lot of the places that do that, like say a summer camp or whatnot, are run by people who are religious. And I think that that creates problems, right, if you don't want your children exposed to religion. But that's how you help people get better, right? Just at a general level. Yeah, yeah, being outside, you know, I think it was probably a lot. I think it was a leftist that came up with the term touching grass, go touch grass. Yes, I go touch grass.

I hear that a lot. Yeah, which is hilarious because it usually comes from somebody who hasn't touched grass in a very long time. Yeah. I mean, I do think there's something interesting happening with young people because, you know, we're sort of talking about young people right now a lot, is that they are interested in more analog things. I think that I think that young people today, while they're not,

willing to give up the phone, right? They're not willing to give up social media. It's sort of an appendage and it's like part of their psychology that they get those, that dopamine hit, right, during their daily lives. But they are interested in being in the moment. And I think that they have started to realize, I've seen this, happened, that they recognize that this, this chronic being online, this addiction to the cell phone and the, the, the, the instrument, and the Twitter feed and all that, that it prevents them from actually engaging in the world around them.

And I do think we are seeing a resurgence of young people who are interested in unplugging, but they don't really know how to do it and they're not really doing it, right, in the way that maybe people did in the 80s and 70s, but they are curious around it. I think that curiosity gives me a little bit of hope that if we could just get them unplugged from the mission,

machine, right? The machine that's doing all this programming, they would maybe think for themselves, and they might come up with a different result. Unfortunately, the industry that I work in doesn't really touch grass. We work inside dark rooms, right, where we don't touch grass at all in purpose. So it's hard to sort of, it's hard to sort of promote that when my industry requires you to be inside using electronics most of the day, you know? But I think this being in the moment thing is a place to sort of slip in and say, okay, well, everyone has told you a lot of things online, but right now, what are you experiencing right now? You know, make your own opinion about that. Actually, have some backbone. Don't just repeat what someone has said to you. Think about it for yourself

and decide what you feel and what you think. And I want to be very clear. I don't want to confuse feelings with fact, because I think that a lot of people today, young and old, have confused feelings with fact, right? That like the idea that if I feel something, it must be true, and this is obviously false, right? We feel a lot of things that are not true, especially when what we feel is based on information that is not true. And so I think that being able to help people learn the difference between I feel a certain way, but it doesn't mean that I have to act on that feeling or revise my worldview based on that feeling, but I can actually look at what the fact is. I feel this person has said something that I do not like, is the fact that they have harmed me or is it the fact

that we disagree, right? I think people are unable to distinguish between those two things. So one of the things that you had mentioned was the fact that highly educated people, let's quote, unquote, that. Most of the people you interact with are highly educated. But in your own words, you say that, they're ignorant and deranged. And that's, I mean, ignorant, sure, deranged. I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole thing. Because you're, you know, you have to ask yourself, okay, why?

You know, what is it? Is it academia doing it to them? Is it the fact that they, they thought they were going to get answers in academia and they didn't get them? Is it stunting of growth? Is it, you know, column A, column B and column C? I mean, what is it about people who can, you know, what they say about like, like, you know, right wingers, you know, like far right. People who are far to the right is, you know, oh, you people are uneducated. And it's like, well, that's not true.

I probably read more books in a year than most leftists have read in the last 10 years. you know and you know i read poetry and i read you know i listen to classical music there's i'm very refined but i'm also you know somebody who is not somebody whose heroes are considered to be you know maybe possibly some of the worst people who ever lived by most people in academia um so what is it what yeah i mean what yeah well i think it's the sort of complete takeover and i mean i think this this is the this is the culmination of you know a long game program right that what started sort of i you know i'd say like in the 50s really that you sort of you infiltrate academia with sort of these other ideas right about how society could be and then that you sort of you infiltrate academia with sort of these

other ideas, right, about how society could be. And then those people are educated that way. And then they go on and they become the high school teachers and they become the elementary school teachers, right? And then they have children. And then they raise those children that way. And I think that what we're seeing is sort of the completion of that cycle, that if you've got a bunch of people who've been educated from birth, that these left-as ideologies are true, then there isn't a way for them to see something else. And so I don't know that it's just, I don't know that they're showing up to college

and they're getting indoctrinated. I think that they're indoctrinated in elementary school. I think it's a full, I think it's a full court press, right? And I think that that has happened recently that maybe in the last like 15, 20 years, that the elementary schools and the public schools have been sort of filled, with this ideology. I mean, you remember when that anti-racist baby book came out, right? Like, I don't know if you

remember that. I don't know if you remember that. I mean, what's happening, right? I mean, you're basically saying that we're going to start promoting this kind of speak from infancy, right? And we're going to set up the idea that we've got these systemic problems from infancy, and we're going to set up this us versus them mentality from infancy. And so I think you don't get that without acknowledging that there's a whole generation of parents who were brought up in an educational system that was already very far to the left.

And now it's just completed the circle. I mean, Harvard published an interesting article recently where they were documenting that their student body is actually more conservative than it's been in a very long time. And if you look at the numbers, the faculty is like very, very left. It's like 98% or something like that, you know. But the student body itself is actually shifting more moderate and indeed right. And they don't really know what to do about it, right?

Because there aren't people that are teaching that think and feel the way that some of these students are feeling. They, that there's a big disconnect. But I, I mean, I think the schools are making it worse, right? Because you, young people come to school to be told how to get an education. And we sort of equated that education with bettering oneself, right? That like, you get a college education and that makes you somehow superior to people who don't have a college education. There's this idea around that. And I think that that idea is perpetuated by academic institutions because it gives them credibility, right? That why should you pay us money? Because because we make you superior versus schools that are trade schools or, you know, GED requirements and things like that. We have an idea in our culture that if you have a college degree, you are somehow better than people who don't. And I think that there's this idea that you go to college and you, you know, you've come from a very provincial place, right, wherever you grew up and you were very sheltered with your parents. And then you come to college and get exposed to the real world and real ideas and that, you know, you're supposed to shut off that provincial

thought and take on a more worldly view because now you have education and so you know better. I think that's a total lie. You know, it's certainly the lie that I experienced. But I think that's possible because in the high schools and in the elementary schools, they're also hearing the same message. You know, the people that you've been raised by, they maybe don't, you know, they're old fashion, they haven't changed. Their beliefs are out of date, et cetera.

you know, when you get to college, you'll be able to decide for yourself and make different choices. And I think that this is being said in the classrooms to young people. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash Northwest.

Inflation pushes up building costs, so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Under-insurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing contents. It's a risk you can avoid. avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly. For more, visit understandinginsurance. I.E. forward slash under insurance. Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. Have you recently purchased a new vehicle from Francine Volkswagen? If so, you may be at risk for an exciting condition known as

New Car Joy. Symptoms may include spontaneous smiling, sudden increases in confidence and uncontrollable urges to take the scenic route. If you experience any of these symptoms, don't worry. The only known treatment is enjoying your new vehicle. Side effects may also include great value and exceptional customer service. Talk to a friendly professional at Frank Heen Volkswagen today and see if upgrading your car is the right prescription for you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, at this point, we've, everything we've been talking about is negative. I know. I know. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, no. I mean, we have to, we have to go through it. I mean, we have to know what the problem is before we can even talk about whether anything positive is happening.

So I guess one of the first things, the whole DEI thing, what do you see happening with the whole DEI regime? Well, I mean, federally, it's not allowed anymore. And certainly I have watched educational institutions and places that I work remove that language, right? They are very quick to assure everyone in the institution that they are still doing that work. They're just calling it something else, right? So from their perspective, they are sort of undercover now and working very hard. to keep doing the work as they would say it, right? From the outer perspective, I think that it's, you can't really say it in the same way, right? So that that messaging in that language isn't

hitting young people and frankly people who are my age to the same degree that it was. I mean, I got to say that during the 2020 and 21, I so much of my life. So much of my age, life was consumed by showing up to go to work and then finding that the first hour of my work day was going to be this, right? That we would be engaging in some sort of workshop or engaging in some sort of exercise as a group before we could begin the actual work of the day, which was to do whatever the task was ahead of us. That sort of thing doesn't really happen anymore because it really can't. And so, you know, I don't have to sort of go through that experience.

Unfortunately, I mean, I don't know, unfortunately is a weird word. The language, though, is still there, right? Young people have learned this language in their high schools and in their middle schools, and so that's how they talk, right? They see the world through that lens. And I don't know that, I don't know how. how to undo that. I think maybe with time, it will sort of gradually unravel because it won't be indoctrinated into young people like it was for four years. But the language is still very much

present. It's just not able to be funded or presented as sort of a requirement. You know, a lot of schools, right, had requirements for their students that they had to participate in DEI programs as part of their curriculum. And now that that doesn't exist, right? So I guess that's kind of the change that I've seen more than anything else. But I think the people that are still in the schools, they're very much thinking of the world that way, even if they're not using those terms. Does that answer your question? I hope that maybe. Yeah, that's about what you, what you would expect, that it would still be sticking around, but if it can't be funded, that it'll, it'll eventually evaporate and it'll just be a remnant, there'll be remnants of it. But, um, so.

And just to be clear about the funding as well, right, the funding is interesting because it can be funded at a federal level. Like, you know, we've seen this play out right in the NIA grants, right? If you, if you, if you follow the entertainment industry, then you are probably aware that the National Endowment for the Arts change their requirements for what constitutes as grantworthy work, right? And they removed they removed language around work that, you know, was specific to a certain community identity, right? So this caused a lot of uproar in my community, right? Because a lot of the work that is made in the entertainment industry does not support itself.

I mean, certainly you've got stuff in Vegas where ticket sales support itself and commercial projects, but a lot of the nonprofit work that happens specifically in New York City. But across America at nonprofit institutions, it's not able to be supported without substantial funding from outside sources. And a lot of it is substantially funded by the NEA. And so when the NEA changed the guidelines under Trump to say that we're not going to allow you to,

we're not going to fund things that are specifically related to this DEI language, right? That a lot of stuff just didn't get made. Or a lot of stuff is endangered. of not getting made, you know? And so there's been a lot of grassroots support in organizing in the entertainment industry to supplement the funding that is no longer coming in from the NEA for these projects that don't meet the guidelines anymore, right? Because there are projects that specifically are exclusive, right, of any identity, but the one that the project wants to uphold. Does that

make sense. So this is where really I've seen the biggest change because all of these organizations that have been counting on large amounts of federal money to make up the deficits that they inevitably run don't have that anymore. And they're having to make choices about what work they put on because they can't make it up with ticket sales. I mean, it's no secret that most of the entertainment industry doesn't make money, right? It's in the red. And so if people don't want to come see it and they're not going to buy tickets to it, then unless it's funded another way, it doesn't happen. So that's really been the place where I've seen that. You know, academic institutions are funded differently.

So they're going to put on whatever plays they want, regardless of what the ticket sales are, because they don't need the ticket sales to continue doing the play, right? They've got a budget from the university to do the work, and they're going to use that however they want. But it's in the, you know, in the real world where suddenly you can't make the balance sheet balance. That's where it's really, I've seen the biggest impact. What about the, uh, the trans stuff, the pronoun stuff, the gender stuff? Yeah. How strong, how strong was that stuff in your industry and it's extremely strong? It's extremely strong. It's going away. Yeah, I don't know that that's

going away. I think that is very much present. What's interesting is that it used to, as someone who sort of chose to opt out of that in a big way, it used to feel it used to feel hard to do that. Now I find that it's easier to just not engage in that because there's not as much focus on checking to see who's carrying the flag, so to speak. And I think part of that is that, you know, when no one was allowed to work, because our government shut down the country, people had a lot of time to do nothing, but focus on what their neighbor was doing. And so now that we're actually doing real things again in the industry,

people have less time and patience for that sort of thing, but certainly in academia and in the non-for-profit sector is still very much alive because it's a signaling tactic, right? It's that, you know, the rest of the world may have abandoned this, but we still do this because we see you. You know, I think that's what's behind it. Personally, I think that I have been able to sort of not engage in that. And I've been able to sort of be on the outside of that issue, which has been good because

I'm not really interested in having those conversations with people. They're not going to be fruitful, and they're going to end up with me being called a bunch of names, and I just don't need to engage with that in my workplace. But it's very much there. I think that, again, I think that you've got a lot of young people who are entering the industry and entering our world who are about to become the people. in charge of our world, right? Who are not about, I mean, you know, in maybe 10, 15 years,

who have been doing that since they were 14 years old. So they just believe that that's how humans should treat each other, right? That's what they think. And so it's not going away because that's, they just do it like second nature. Air grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November.

Have your say online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4.n. Northwest. Inflation pushes up building costs, so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Under-insurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing contents.

It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly. For more, visit Understandinginsurance.i.e. forward slash under-insurance. Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. Have you recently purchased a new vehicle from Francine Volkswagen? If so, you may be at risk for an exciting condition known as New Car Joy. Symptoms may include spontaneous smiling, sudden increases in confidence and uncontrollable urges to take the scenic route. If you experience any of these symptoms, don't worry.

The only known treatment is enjoying your new vehicle. Side effects may also include great value and exceptional customer service. Talk to a friendly professional at Frank Heen Volkswagen today and see if upgrading your car is the right prescription for you. You've said that you, for years, there probably isn't a day that goes, by where you don't think about quitting and walking away and doing something else. And you actually said that if Trump hadn't won, that was probably what you were going to do, right? Definitely from teaching, I think. Definitely from teaching.

I think that professionally where I am, I've been around a long time. So where I am professionally, I think that I think that I would have probably, spent more time in the non-for-profit sector where it doesn't matter really as much and there's less hand-ringing over such things. But definitely in teaching, I mean, I found the environment that I was teaching in to be pretty untenable during 2020 and 2021. And I think it would have continued to be untenable. I think that there were, there have been multiple times when it has been assumed that I would sign a document or put my name to a document or affirm things that I think I had been able to sort of not do. And I think that that would not have been an option for me

going forward. And yeah, I mean, I were, you know, I think it's different if you're at a private or a public institution. But I, yeah, I certainly feel like the outcome of the election gave me breathing room in a way that I didn't feel that I had. And yeah, I think about all the time. I think about the fact that I basically, as you said, I sort of live undercover in this world. I love the work that I do.

I love making things. It's really sad to me that everyone around me says things about me without knowing it's me, right? And they say a lot of things that are really nasty. And I just sort of have to ignore it. And, you know, am I personally? harmed by those things? No, it's just something someone said, but when that's your environment day and day out, it's not fun. You know, it's not fun. And a lot of the work that is being made is work

that is really negative and really misinformed about people that I care about. And it's frustrating that, you know, I don't want to be part of that work. But at some point, it's like, well, if I'm not going to be part of that work, then what's left? You know, there's only so many opportunities. And I think I've found a lot of solace in working more in the corporate side and things where, like, this isn't really as much of a factor. But certainly in New York, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find work that isn't highly political. And I have to say, I've had conversations with people who are left leaning about this problem, too. I think that people in the industry are frustrated with the fact that everybody has to make everything about.

the politics all the time. Like it's sort of considered bad form, right, to just make something that's fun, just to be fun. It has to say something. You know, you hear a lot of people say the phrase, art is resistance. That's one of the favorite phrases that people in my industry say. Art is resistance. Art is resistance. But sometimes artists just art, like because we thought it would be cool, because it looks cool, because it's a fun story, because we love the music, because it's an interesting story, right? And I think that there is fatigue, even among people who accept the leftist principles,

there's fatigue that they can't just make something because they want to make something. It has to somehow have a deeper meaning. And when they say, well, no, I just wanted to make this thing because it was interesting, everybody shoots back and says, but don't you think as an artist you have a duty, you have a duty to use your power to say what needs to be said, to protect who needs to, you know what I mean?

Like this is the kind of language that gets thrown around, and it's really tiresome. It's really, really tiresome. And so, you know, I think that if Trump hadn't won, it would be a lot more codified, right? I think that Trump winning and stuff like the NIA, like changing, it's just, it's given a little bit of breathing room because if you want to sell tickets, you got to put on a show, right?

And so maybe you're going to do a show in your season that's not doom and gloom. Maybe you're going to do something just because it's fun. So that's been interesting to watch. And I think everyone experiences a lot of fatigue. But again, right, if you're an artist that's coded in the left and you dare to say, I'm tired of the fight, then you get canceled, right? You weren't a true believer. you got tired and that's there nobody wants to be canceled right well i mean the question is is

you say that many of these people are basically deranged well i mean yeah i mean the word yeah the word is interesting right because i think it well well i mean if you think that you think that you're putting out this art which i mean who except like your immediate friend group thinks it's any good i mean it's it's garbage well and deep down you have to know it's garbage well the i think this is the thing i think that you know the the way i would say that the the the the problem i have with a lot of art that's being produced right now is that it's not, you know, it's not saying anything that you can engage in, right? And I think that that's what you're referring to. It's like it's people standing up and saying, this is what I feel in this moment, affirm me, right? That's not actually interesting in any way.

It doesn't engage in a dialogue. It doesn't ask questions. It doesn't allow for people to engage with it who don't already agree with the premise, you know? And I, and that's where I think people are sort of deranged because, um, you're not too, also if they agree with you, then you, you expect, I think that they're, they're expecting that this is really good art and that this is real art. And, you know, art, you know, I've been in museums and looked at classical art, neoclassical art, romanticism, a medieval art. It draws emotion. You know, it can bring tears to your eyes. I mean, this is, these aren't people who are, they're not expecting people to, you know, it's like these comedians who they don't want you.

to laugh, they want you to applaud because they're saying something, you know, they're part of the resistance. So I know, if I go to a comedy club, I want to laugh. I don't want to applaud. If I go to what, if I go to an art gallery, I want to feel something. I don't want to have to sit there and wonder what, you know, yeah, I think this, this is what I'm getting at is that, Like, I think that a lot of this theater making is actually a lecture, right? It's you go into the theater and you are berated by the piece of how bad you are, right? You're either affirmed that you're one of the good ones and you're being celebrated, right? And then you look around and look at all the other poor pitifuls in the theater who aren't being affirmed and you know that you're superior.

or you're being told that you're terrible and hear all the steps you should take to become better. And if you don't follow these steps, then you're the problem, right? And I just, I think my way of saying that would be that that's not the point, right? Like, that doesn't actually allow people to engage or feel, right? Because they're either just feeling the things they've already felt or they're feeling horrible, right? And when you put people in a position, you know, if you, I mean, I mean, really when I think about it, it's just not an effective way of communication, like barring what the message is,

barring any of that. Like if you want people to be engaged by what you're doing, sitting them down for two and a half hours and explain to them how they're terrible people is not the way to go about doing that, right? Like, that's not going to get you anywhere because those people are going to walk out angry and resentful. And the people that already agree with you, you don't need to change their mind. And so it just doesn't make a lot of sense. And so I think what it means is that there's a lot of people out there who don't go to see art because they don't get anything from it.

And they don't think it's for them. You know, they go to museums and they see exhibitions where they're being told why the museum is bad. So why are they going? You know, it doesn't help them. And so they just don't engage with it. Well, it's just everything. Well, yeah, and then what's interesting is what happens is the people on the left say, look how uncultured those people are.

They don't go see art, right? So it creates this feedback loop for everybody, which is that, you know, everyone on the right is uncultured because they don't appreciate art because they didn't come to see my piece where I tell them how bad they are for not believing what I believe, right? Right? Like it just creates a problem. And so I think everyone becomes affirmed in that because they say, well, look, no one came to see my piece doesn't already agree with me. And the people who didn't see the piece say, well, why would I want to sit through that? And so it just, it's difficult.

And I don't know. I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I feel like if you're going to make someone sit down for two and a half hours in a theater, be quiet and pay attention to what you have to say, you need to have something worthwhile to say. You know, it's ultimately a very hubristic thing that we're doing here, that whatever I have is super important, you need to turn off your cell phone, you need to fully engage because what I had to say deserves your full attention. So when people enter into that contract with you and you don't give them anything in return, that's a failure in my book. Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the Electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community.

Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest. Inflation pushes up building costs, so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Under-insurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing contents. It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly.

For more, visit Understandinginsurance.i.e. forward slash under-insurance. Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. Have you recently purchased a new vehicle from Frankine Volkswagen? If so, you may be at risk for an exciting condition. known as new car joy symptoms may include spontaneous smiling

sudden increases in confidence and uncontrollable urges to take the scenic route if you experience any of these symptoms don't worry the only known treatment is enjoying your new vehicle side effects may also include

great value and exceptional customer service talk to a friendly professional at Frank Heen Volkswagen today and see if upgrading your car is the right prescription for you let's uh let's finish up on this race is quickly becoming a huge issue. And it has been, but I think that now it's even starting to

cross over into, you know, like normies are noticing it. Grandparents are noticing, wow, it really seems like they hate white people. All these people hate white people. Even white people on TV hate white people. You talked about during the COVID era, there was something going around. called White People in Theater, a document that was being used to taunt and go after people. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. There was a document that came out that people were sort of asked a sign that had a lot of statements about how white people in. sign that had a lot of statements about how white people in theater were engaging in bad behavior,

what they call harmful behavior, right? That's the language that the document, that's language people use. And there was a ton of pressure in the industry to sign this document. It came from companies, it came from individuals, it came from academic institutions. At one point there was a list published by the people who wrote the document of all the people who had not signed, who were members of prominent institutions. It was sort of a re-up of like, hey, we published this list a month or so ago and look at all these people who were in charge of the art making spaces that we engage in, who haven't signed

the document. Why haven't you signed the document? And there was no ability to talk about it. It was sort of hook line and sinker, right? It was, this is the thing. We have made this thing. These are our demands and you are either fully in support or you are against us. And there were a lot of things in that document that weren't necessarily

actually about race. There are practices in the theater and the entertainment industry that are predatory. And there were a lot of things in that document that actually were trying to address predatory practices, but through a lens that that was all about race. And it was impossible to have a conversation about that document because if you didn't agree with that you were bad, right? You were bad. That's the only way to put it.

And, you know, theatrical institutions, entertainment institutions across America would sign this with great flourish and post it. You know, our entire staff has signed this, we believe, you know, but really like, that's not how it goes down, right? I mean, there was pressure in academia to sign it as an institution, right?

That the institution needed to sign this, and therefore all of the people who work at the institution would de facto sort of be part of that, right? And there was a lot of discussion around it because I think that many people were concerned about the idea that people should just sign something, right? It was a long document. It had a lot in it. You know, it was not a short thing.

Yeah, I mean, that's one of those things that I was kind of referring to that I feel like that sort of thing would have happened more had Trump not won. Or I'm fearful that that sort of thing would have happened more. And I, you know, I've always sort of been uneasy with sort of endorsements, right, from any kind of group because it doesn't really represent the, of thought within the group. And I don't think that because I work for a company or I work on a project that I should be required to adopt the political ideologies of that company or the project. I think I'm an American and I have free speech and I have the right to my own opinion.

But that's not how this works, right? Because once everybody's signed, then everybody's now bound by this. So that was very difficult. You know, not much honestly has come of that document after the country came through the worst of the COVID issues. It's sort of fallen out, and I really haven't heard anybody refer to it in a while, but I think that it's still there, right? It's still lurking, and I think that people have still signed it, and that exists. Yeah, that was really stressful. There was a period of time where I was convinced that I would be required to sign this thing as a member of the institution that I was teaching at. That did not happen ultimately, but I was really nervous about that because I didn't,

I don't think it was, yeah, I didn't want to sign it, right? You know? Well, in academia or in, in entertainment is, Is there open hostility? Is there still that kind of speech of open hostility to white people? Because, you know, the whole colonizer, colonial, slave owner, fascist. I mean, basically, if you could get anybody to understand, you know, and I'm not some, I'm not one of these people who is like, I need to wake up the normies or anything like that.

I'm, if they wake up, that's fine. But, you know, I'm just looking for. a very I look for a very small group to to work with and to organize with. But, you know, all of those things, slave owner, colonizer, fascist. It's just basically an excuse to be like, okay, at some point we can kill you, just like we killed Charlie because Charlie, you know, Charlie was a fascist. And it's like, and I'm like, no, I'm way more, I'm way closer to a fascist than Charlie was. I considered Charlie to be on the left. I mean, that's my thinking is anybody who's like a classical liberal, oh, we can talk with our enemies. And if we just make a better

argument, I'm like, that's not thinking that I, at one time I held to that. But, you know, my eyes are wide open to the fact that, you know, people, people want to kill you for your opinions. And if they can't kill you, they'll be happy to destroy you or destroy somebody close to you and they'll laugh about it. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what is so hard about being in the industry because I think that that is the emotional truth of it, right? Like, I mean, I said that earlier, but it's hard. It's hard to sort of go to work every day and realize that the people around you, if they knew you, if they knew, if they were willing to have a conversation with you, they would, they would hate you immediately. And, and, and it's hard for me because I, I do feel that the people that I've been

able to have real conversations with, I actually think that there has been movement. with some of those conversations. Over time, sometimes it's taken many, many, many years. But at least there's the ability to have a decent discussion. Of course, it doesn't go anywhere because the conversation stays within those two people. But the open hostility is real. I think you're right. I think it is very much there.

I mean, it's in casual ways, right? It's in going into a room and having everyone say like, you know, F Trump and everyone go, yeah, F Trump, right? Like, and then that's just sort of a thing that happens. And it just happens in the room and everybody's sort of expected to go along with it. And nobody even looks around to see if it's a problem for anybody because there's an assumption that nobody who matters would feel that way. And they would definitely not be in this room. You know, I had a situation once where I was told in a private conference. that I should reveal myself because the community deserved to know what monsters were among us.

This was said to me, and of course I disengaged from that conversation very quickly, but this is, I think, how people feel, right? You don't agree with me. It's okay for me to be hostile, and because I know that I could never see you, as a person who's worthy of my time and respect, I'm just going to be openly hostile. And I'm not even going to think about the fact that you might be in the room because I just know you aren't. So that sort of thing happens on a daily basis. And it's, yeah, it's tough. And I think that hostility towards one race or another, it's all kind of wrapped in together, right? I mean, it's I don't know that I've experienced people being like openly hostile to me because of my racial identity necessarily, but it's wrapped up in the identity of everything else they talk about.

So it doesn't, you know, they don't have to say that out loud, right? It's already there because if you're a leftist, you feel a certain way and everyone feels that way. I mean, this is everything that I find so crazy, right? Is that like for a political ideology that's supposed to be about individualism and expression and all of that, it's not. You know, it's like it's totally group thing, right? You can't question something. If you question something, then you're automatically not an ally. And I don't know.

I feel like in conservative circles, I think there's a lot more breadth to the thinking. There's a lot more allowance for being on different places on the spectrum, and there's a lot more tolerance for different points of view around things that's not present in the left. So the hostility has to be there because they have to have a way to weed out who you are from the get-go, right? If you don't participate in the sort of chorus of F-Trump, then they look at you sideways. They start watching you, right? And when you haven't done it four times in a row, they start to wonder whose side you're on. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area,

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When you put the ball over the bar, you put the parish on the map. And one man's 60 minutes can be a whole town's finest hour. Because when it's club, it lives forever. This is the AIB GAA Club Championships, GAA, where we all belong. Well, it's unfortunately, they seem to be a little more inclusive when it comes to, like, fighting the right. So one of the reasons why they were able to basically take over so many of the institutions is because they are better in organizing than the right ever is. The right is actually the more individualistic thinking.

Completely, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, look, we can get into like the sole communist discussion, but I think the mentality is basically the group is more important than the individual, right? And that leads to better organization because you don't have to deal with the fact that People, you know, everybody sort of goes, I'm going to sublimate whatever I feel towards the group because the cause is more important than me, right, at every turn. So it's going to be easier to get a bunch of people to march in the street because they're all sort of buying into that ideology that I'm going to get there. You know, all the boats rise together, except they don't, right? Except they don't because it's never enough, right?

Because as soon as you've got somebody in the collective who says, well, actually, this is harmful to you. me, then everybody's got to reorganize around that, right? Um, and it sort of starts to fracture and splinter. And so the only way you can keep control of it is by declaring what people have to think and kind of forcing them to think. And of course, as the ideology starts to splinter and get more ridiculous, you have to declare people to think even more ridiculous things. So then all of a sudden you've got people who are like moderate, right?

Who suddenly found themselves marching in a crowd of people who say things that they never would have said. They never would have said, right, on their own. But because it's a never-trumper, all of a sudden, they're saying, yeah, let's have, you know, let's have late-term abortion, right? When, like, they actually never would have said that. But it's part of the March, so they're going to do it. Yeah, I don't know. The group think is really exhausting.

It's really, really exhausting. Well, really the only the problem is, is that the only way to defeat them is to basically organize like they do. And I think to, you know, I think to be braver. I mean, I struggle with this myself. Just be braver about it. Because the reality is, you know, they can sit here and say Trump isn't my president, but millions of people voted for him, right? So they're either going to discount millions of people or they're going to have to reckon with the fact that those are facts. And they've chosen to sort of discount millions of people, right?

That's kind of what we do. Well, this is their history. It's one of the reasons why I started studying. and I tell people to study the Spanish Civil War from 1936 to 1939 because that is a war that the it's one of the only wars in history where the losers got to write the history books. Everybody thinks there was this Republican form of government and these fascist right-wingers like, you know, rose up to overthrow them because they were upset that they would know these people were communists. and they were literally working with the Soviet Union and the common turn and the international, and there were anarchists. And their plan was to kill half the country.

Because they said if they killed half the country, people would probably stop being Catholics. You know, because they killed six, within the first six months of the war, they killed six thousand priests, nuns, seminarians, lay people, and burned down thousands of churches. And yeah, they have no problem with alienating millions of people because when it comes down to it, those of us who've studied this well know that if it comes to, they'll just kill those people. The time is going to come when they will just put bullets in their heads like they did in, you know, in the Katzian forest and, you know, like the Russians did in the Katsun forest. than in, you know, like the Russians did in the Katzian forest to Poles and Lithuanians and Germans. Yeah, I mean, I think you've actually sort of like, you've alluded to something that I think is a big part of this as well, which is that humans, I mean, this is where the faith part comes in, right? Humans have a need to believe in something, right?

and that has been filled historically by a faith. When you have a program that removes that, you have to replace it with something. And, you know, these people are, you know, fanatics because this is their religion, right? And they're willing to die for their religion. They're willing to organize for their religion. They're willing to kill for their religion because that's their belief system. It's, it's, this, these ideologies have replaced a belief in a higher power. They've replaced a belief in, you know, what have you.

Because that hole in a person has to be filled somewhere. And, you know, I'm getting very religious here, but I really believe that. It's important. And so I see a lot of people who are desperate to believe in something. And this ideology comes along and says, we'll give you something to believe and we'll give you something to fight for. We'll pay for you to do it. You'll have a lot of friends. You'll be really popular.

You'll be on the right side of history, et cetera. And people buy it. Hookline and sinker, right? It supplies the need inside of them to believe in something greater than themselves. And that's been stripped away from them, right? Because they haven't been raised in a society where they're given access to faith. Yeah. Yeah.

The whole idea of going to war with the, you have another. religion so you have to go to war with the existing religion is uh you know a tale is old as time you know it used to be you know protestants and and Catholics or Catholics and Catholics or um you know just choose you know or you know obviously um you know when it comes to like historic Spain the caliphate take over and yeah I mean this is I don't you know My friend Charles Haywood makes a really good point. He's like, I don't know, when you say it's a religion, you don't know how many, how many of these people are willing to die for it.

And that's usually, you know, martyrdom is probably the best, the best predictor of whether somebody is in a religion or not. They're willing to die for it. But I think in the last couple of years, we've seen that the radicals are. And they're willing to kill, walk into. a, you know, into Christian schools and Catholic schools kill and have their own lives taken from them. We're taking their own lives. So, yeah, I mean, the religion itself is, you know, once you understand that it is a religion to them, then you understand why they have, they have this,

what they believe is a mandate to destroy all the other religions that would possibly compete with them. Yeah, and I think that this is what young, you know, I think it's appealing to young people because they're looking for something to believe in and they see this thing and it seems to check all the boxes that they've been indoctrinated in to believe, you know? And they, they're so, I find that young people today are just, they're incredibly ignorant about faith. They're incredibly ignorant about church. And I don't really mean to specific. of Domination, I think they're just incredibly ignorant about the Christian faith. They don't know anything about it. I think that they're growing up somewhere where everybody was sort of nominally Christian, right? There were a lot of people that I knew who knew a lot about religion, but sort of chose not to engage with it. You know, they were sort of like self-styling agnostic or atheist, but it wasn't because they didn't understand or had never heard of it.

They just didn't want to engage in it because it was inconvenient for them in some way, right? But I think there are a lot of people now who literally do not know anything about it. Because I think our culture has succeeded in erasing it from a lot of places where these young people would have accessed it earlier. The home, the school, all those places, right? Civic events. They just, it's a, you know, when I have discussed things with younger people or even people in the industry, it's astonishing to me that they just have a complete ignorance of the facts in the historical significance. significance of religion. And it's funny because you do plays that have a lot of references from the Bible in them,

and they don't even know their references. Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. November. Have your say online or in person so together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest. Santa's House Express at Palmerstown House Estate where Christmas magic comes alive.

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in those moments when they demonstrate some real curiosity, but it's alarming. It's alarming to realize how much they don't know about their culture. And you know, if you don't know what your culture is, you can't engage in it. I think that, like, there's all this questions around what is American culture right now, and I think we have a lot of other cultures that are living here in America. and people are confused because they have been told that they're not allowed to want their culture, right? They're supposed to have other cultures. They're supposed to be open to other things.

Well, you're not allowed to have your own culture if you're white, basically. That's the thing is. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, and this is confusing to people because they don't, they can see their other things are not their culture. I mean, I just watch it be confusing to people. I find it confusing because why is it okay to celebrate other people's cultures in a culture? You know, like, why is it not okay to go to those places and bring my culture, but it's okay to bring their culture to mine? I'm so confused. White white culture, especially white northern European culture,

has always been very open and very because they're basic that's the way they are but when you start introducing other cultures because the because they're white European culture and Northern European culture is open and other cultures are not they're very insular it's very easy for insular outside insular cultures to dominate a culture of openness especially when you You know, it really, it's seen as a faux power, it's seen as rude to, you know, go after somebody else's culture. And I know a lot of people blame this on Christianity. And, I mean, I don't think, I don't think this has a lot to do with the Enlightenment, too, which was a complete rebellion against Christianity. But the, on that, I think you would absolutely agree.

That I, I, yeah, I think a lot of this can be traced back to the Enlightenment. I think you're right about that. Yeah, I mean, it was just basically you're trying to have Christianity without Christ. And, you know, you can have your own beliefs, your own religion, you're your own God. And, yeah, that just doesn't, that doesn't historically work. I mean, you're trying to force something upon people who, you know, for thousands and thousands of years have lived, have been either monotheists or polytheists, and the concept of no, now you have to worship yourself while that goes, that ends, it turns out that that you end up in a bad place often when, when you're your own God and you have a culture of little gods running around.

Well, and I think often of C.S. Lewis's argument for why one should believe in a religion, right? When sort of asked why one should believe in a God if you can't prove it, right? That's a common thing. People say, well, you can't prove it to me. And C.S. Lewis says, but wouldn't it be better, right, to live in hope than to live in a world where, like, the best it gets is me? And I think that like what he's getting to in that is this human condition, right? That like if we're worshipping ourselves, how horrible, how absolutely horrible. I mean, I fail all the time. I'm a disaster.

I think just like from a psychological point of view, that's such a bad idea. And it does lead to a really dark place. Never mind the truth of the matter, never mind the truth of the universe or God or all that stuff. It just leads to a really terrible place. And I think this is what happens with people on social media. This is what happens with young people today, right? Because they hold up these people as, look, here's the true believer. Here's the guy who's going to lead us out of the darkness.

And then that person fails. And then the only option they have is to cancel that person and find another perfect person who then lives in fear of becoming imperfect. Because if you worship yourself, when you become imperfect, you are no longer worthy of worship. Right? and it just creates this horrible cycle. So I completely agree with that assessment of the Enlightenment, I have to say. Well, if we're agreed on the Enlightenment, I don't know where else there is to go.

Because getting people to agree on the Enlightenment in this day and age is it's hard enough when you bring it up. It's like bringing up the Constitution. sure the Constitution was a, you know, a pretty decent document for its day, but, you know, if you're not, if there's no one there to enforce it, you know, you just basically have paper, you know, paper that you're waving around or, you know, it's like famously people say, you know, Liberia has our Constitution and it's one of the worst places in the world to live. So, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think this gets into ideas. around statehood, right? That like in order for a state to exist, it has to be able to perpetuate itself. And I think so much about what is happening in Leptus ideology seeks to dismantle the idea that one is allowed to perpetuate one's existence. And this is counter to the ability to exist, right? Like if I can't assert myself as separate from you and assert my right to be myself, then what's the point? And what I see is a lot of leftist ideology is sort of saying, you don't get to be you.

You don't get to assert your selfness here, right? I'm going to decide who gets to be perpetuated and who doesn't. And I have a lot of arguments with my friends about this and say like, you know, if we don't have the ability to be an entity, then we will cease to exist as an entity. And all of those things that you love about this entity, all of those rights and freedoms that you want so badly will go away because there will be no entity to enforce them. And this is the great problem, I think, inherent in the ideology. You know, you're allowed to protest because you have an entity that protects your right to protest. If you really were in the kind of society that you say you want to be in, you would not be allowed to say what you say. And it's also the whole idea that you're always going to be in charge.

You know, when you, yeah, that's why, you know, a lot of people are like, well, if Trump doesn't, and I don't think he's going to destroy the left, they're going to, you know, if not in 2028, one day they are going to get back in power. And when they get back in power, they are going to be looking to be looking to. to punish people. And when I say punish people, I mean, beyond throwing them in jail for like January 6th, no, it's going to be, it's going to be a little more historic than that. I'll just, I'll say that much. Well, I think, you know, I think we already see this in the UK, right? I mean, we've seen this idea that people are getting arrested in the United Kingdom for what they say, right? And that's a country that doesn't have the same free speech guarantees that our country has,

but they're not that far away. And when you've got people who are being fined and put in jail for what they say online, that's, you know, that's not good. Like, that's not a good situation. I mean, it's happening in England, right? Like, I think that you're not wrong that the next round will be more significant. Yeah, yeah, we can see our future by looking over there. Although, you know, I'm hoping that they rise up and they start to say no.

and 1848 saw all of these, basically international rebellions in all these countries and left us coded. And I think that the spirit of 1848, if it happens, it'll eventually happen. But once it happens, like in one country, it's going to spread. Because that's just how it works and most of Europe is screwed. I mean, I haven't been to Europe in a couple decades. But, you know, when I went there, it was, it wasn't that, you didn't have this. And to see it like this is, you know, is pretty horrible. I mean, I, there are places I want to go in Europe and I probably will,

despite the way it is there. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. I very often find myself much more upset with the situation in England than I do in my own country because it is so horrific and just dystopian already that when I hear the stories, I, you know, I'm like, okay, well, we need to invade England and overthrow their government and set the people free. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, obviously, obviously even this conversation, like, you know, we, we have, we have things that we agree on and things that I think we may have slightly different points of view on, but, but the ability to sort of be able to talk about that and is precious, I think. I mean, I think I would fall into the category that, like, I definitely still want to talk to people. I hear where you are on that. And I think that it can, there are days when I feel like what is the point? It is, you know, I should just quit. And then I think about the few people that I've met in my industry who we've found each other.

And it's been really affirming. And I don't really like using that word, but that's the word I used, I guess. It's been really affirming to be like, oh, I'm not alone, you know? And so I think to myself, gosh, like, I should stay, right? I should keep fighting this way. I should keep trying my best. I should keep holding close and revealing when I can to people because if I do it for one person, then someone else will do it for another person.

And before you know it, there'll be a lot more of us. And I think that what I want people to know on the other side is that there are a lot of us. We're not some weird person stuck in a basement who's never seen the sun. Like we are real people who have beliefs that are not crazy. And there's a lot of people who think this way. It's not some sort of marginalized thing that you can put in a corner and say, oh, those right-winger are all nutty, terrible people. And I think that a lot of, a lot of Moderates in the middle are stuck, right? Moderates who traditionally have voted Democratic

are stuck because they're not comfortable with the rhetoric they see, but they don't know how to be on the right. They don't know how to be conservative because everything in their being, everything in their upbringing tells them that they're not allowed to be conservative. And those people are sort of getting lost.

And those people are the people that I'm sort of interested in talking with if they're willing to listen. I think those are the people that Charlie Kirk was interested in talking to, too, you know? I mean, I just don't believe in democracy. So my big thing is, is I don't really, like I think I said earlier, waking up, waking up people en masse.

If I can help them with that so that they can understand how the world works and better navigate it, sure. But as far as like organizing for the future, and when I say organizing, I mean like, you know, having a trusted, a trusted group that, you know, that is seeking to, you know, make plans for the future and make plans to, to protect, to protect each other in the event that things get, you know, get worse, which they probably are, then I'm not really interested in like i'm more interested in having conversations with people who think like i do or almost think like i do than people who are in the middle and you know one of the things that i know from from reading a very famous book and a book that uh that you're really not you shouldn't

if you told people you read it they'd want to know why is that you know this person would go to work and convince his coworkers of his arguments and he leave that day and feel like he accomplished something and then he come back the next day and they forgot everything he said so you know i'm very i've become very selective with the people that i i'm going to give my time to put it that way that i'm going to spend any any time with that uh you know that you know to try to make allies with I'm way more interested in making allies with people who are who I believe, who we pretty much believe the same thing or are pretty close than anyone who is in the middle and, you know, would still consider to vote for like a Democrat or even think that voting is going to change anything at all at this point. So, I mean, that's just, that's just where I am. I mean, I've been doing this for a very long time and I've talked to a lot of people.

and I've made the mistake of talking to people that I didn't agree with before, and it usually does not turn out well. And I try to be as gracious a host as possible. But for the most part, I find that at this point, the danger is so great that aligning, allying with people who, you know, pretty much are on your side, at least 90, 90%, and even higher, is probably the smartest thing to do because there's a lot of people out there that will just turn on you like a dime. And it's, we live in a dangerous world where, you know, people go to debate on campuses and get shot. Well, that is certainly true.

I think that it's difficult to know where you can have the conversations. And I think because it's such a extreme reaction to things that are disparate viewpoints, like there isn't room to sort of say, oh, wow, like I don't like that thing, so I'm not going to engage with it, but it can't. can be over there. You're right about that, that people don't allow the thing to exist. So if you have a viewpoint that they don't love, then they're going to come after you. They're going to come after you really hard because they need it to go away. It threatens them so much that they can't exist in their world. And you're right about that, that they will do anything they can. They will come

after your family. They will come after you personally. They will post you online. They will do whatever it takes to rid themselves of you. And it's, yeah, it's, I mean, that's what's, that's what's so hard because that's true about, about all these relationships that I'm aware that it is very tenuous. And I'd like to think that if people know me as a person, person, they would be able to get past that, but I just don't know that that's true. I mean, it doesn't seem true. And that makes me really sad.

Well, yeah. I was where I was where you are. I was where you are years ago. So it got up. I've gotten past the, the sadness part now and I'm just at the, you know, I went through all the stages of denial. and I'm on the other side going, okay, I really just want to concentrate on people that I know and people who I can trust, people that I know I can trust and, you know, trying to convince people. You know, people think because I have a podcast, I'm trying to convince people, trying to help people. You know, I realize it probably, you know, less than 1% of the people that listen to this will probably, probably, probably,

ever meet in person and everything. But, you know, I want to help them understand what the world looks like and help them understand exactly how the world operates so that they can, they can thrive as best they can because I think if they're listening to me, we have a lot in common. But when it comes right down to it, those people should be finding people in their area to ally with, you know, like I'm like we do here and then you um you you go from there so you know my you know I would never tell anybody you know um you don't you know don't listen I mean it goes against my um you know why I do this and everything because I think I put valuable information out there and have good conversations with people like you who you know I haven't had a conversation like this in a very in a very long

time with somebody who is actually in in the you know behind enemy lines really and talking about behind the enemy lines but um you know i want them i want anyone who's listening to to to be able to thrive and um you know even those people that hate listen you know i have a uh you know hope they uh i can convince them of something something one day who knows yeah it's it's certainly interesting I feel like, I feel, I don't know, I wake up some days and I feel like I, there's something, there's hope and then I wake up some days and I think, what, what's, it's, it's all sort of hopeless. But I don't know, I think I have to figure, I think I have to find a reason to keep going, I guess. Yeah, it's a lot to think about. It's a lot to think about. I think, I don't know.

I'm not making much sense about that now, I think. Wow. Yeah, we've been going a while, so we should probably end this and go on with what we're doing and everything like that. But it was very nice talking to you. I really hope that people get a lot out of this and at least get a peek behind the curtain because I know a lot of the people who, you know, myself, I have gotten to the point where I can put myself in a bubble and not have to engage with this at all. Engage with people like you have to engage with on a daily basis. but you know to hear it from to hear it from somebody who's who's doing it and who is um you know thriving in it and you know just um you know what i would say is uh just keep play your cards close to your best

and do not uh as best you can as things get worse um because they will um just you know be as careful as you can. I think that sums it up pretty well. Yeah. All right. Claire, thank you so much for the talk. And, my best to you.

Maybe we'll talk again sometime. Thanks so much.