The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1285: Conservatives and the Regime 'Plantation' w/ J. Burden

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

68 MinutesSome Strong LanguageJ. Burden is a content creator and the host of The J. Burden Show on YouTube and all podcatchers. J. joins Pete to talk about the political wake caused by the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk.Meditations on the Master’s House: Leaving the PlantationJ's SubstackJ's PatreonJ's YouTube ChannelJ's Find My Frens PagePete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Of course. Of course. So we've talked about, I've covered this subject on the OGC live stream, but I thought you did a really good job talking about it in a post on the OGC substack, basically the subject being that group chats are being leaked from young, you know, Republicans in this case where they get in a group chat, think that they're, you know, safe. And they say stuff that, you know, to be edgy and to be, you know, to make everyone else laugh because it makes you laugh.

And I think as we've seen that, you know, a lot of times we don't really have to worry about the left because our enemy is standing right next to us until they're not, until they're not. until they punch us and run away. So the sub-sac post is called Meditations on the Master's House, leaving the plantation. And the subheading here is, and Malcolm X's parable of the House Conservatives. So why don't you jump off on that? Yeah, sure thing. Look, the history of conservatives sort of betraying their own is a long one, just as an anecdote. I was talking to my mother-in-law last night, and she was saying, like, oh, I don't like

Dinesh D'Souza. Do you know anything about him? Which, I mean, she had no idea what she was in for, because not only do I not like Dinesh D'Souza, I have quite a good reason. What is that reason? Well, he has done over the course of his career, basically the same thing. He got Sam Francis, whose beliefs are foundational to what you and I think Pete came up with the term in Arco Tyranny.

he got him canceled or effectively the same sort of things. Now, it wasn't a group chat, but it was the same mechanism, finding a guy who's radical, who's got interesting ideas and throwing him out. So as regards to this group chat, there are a couple things that have happened after I wrote this that I think are worth mentioning before we dig into it. One, there have been more, right? There have been some Trump nominees who've been implicated. And it seems as if there are a stockpile of these.

There are more to come. They're coming out through Politico the same place. This treasure trove had actually been stored up for over a year. It was pretty old. And it was deployed at kind of a unique moment. So in a bigger picture sense, why are they doing this? Because you'd assume, if you were playing a game with two sides, why would you bow to your enemies like that?

Why would you voluntarily both accept the terms of a scandal? you know, bring that sort of negative attention upon yourself, but also go after, one, an organization that is useful to you, sort of the young Republicans, which, by the way, I didn't realize how old you could be and be in the young Republicans. It's under 40. Like, in my mind, it was a college group, but, you know, apparently it's in the broadest possible context. Well, when you consider the average age of an elected politician in Washington, D.C. Fair. Or the average age of a Republican. Yeah, fair enough. Pretty much, yeah.

The point is, right, you would naturally say, well, we wouldn't want to draw negative attention. If our enemies are saying, look at that bad thing, you'd be like, who do I care? We're on opposite sides. And when I was examining this issue, a couple of things kind of jumped out to me. One, there is a, and when I say operation, I don't have a smoking gun here, but very clearly, there is a coordinated push to sort of connect our friends in the broadest possible sense to Jew hatred, the foreign influence, anything they can. So you see this first with the emergence of the term woke right, you know, saying that,

oh, you know, the radical wing of the conservative movement, quote unquote, they are just as bad as, you know, the wokees that we've spent years demonizing. And very quickly, we saw that. that label grow and expand. And now you have this sort of confluence where not only is Tucker Carlson an evil Nazi, but he's gotten to your kids. Nick Fuentes has gotten to your kids. Now you need to root out the evil from within your own ranks. And this is an example of that. We've seen that going. I think that we were right as a group to sort of point out that there were parts of the Republican coalition that we're moving in our direction, particularly young people. And it seems

as it finally, Khan Inc., the conservative establishment, have realized that as well and are looking to clamp down. I think more of these incidents are to come. So, okay, let's examine this, what's with the connection to Malcolm X? So I'll be honest, I was forced to read a lot of black radicals and post-structuralist anti-colonialists in college. It's still bouncing around in there. And And I think it's funny, right, to use that. If you get. I've read a lot of Malcolm X. It's not, you agree with him a whole lot more than you agree with Martin Luther King.

That's for sure. 100%. And he's describing something very astute here. So for those who aren't familiar, right, Malcolm X is a, you know, a radical figure, you know, kind of the counterpoint in court history to MLK because he viewed things in a radical sense. And obviously, we understand that there's a difference between the man and the myth of MLK. They're sort of separate individuals. But Malcolm X viewed himself very much in opposition to the system, as it were. He did not want to join it. He wanted to secede. There's a reason that a lot of

his buddies after his assassination were part of the Back to Africa movement, part of black separatism. Regardless of your opinions on that, he has this idea of the house slave, which is a basically, you know, someone who is, from a certain perspective, in opposition to the master, to the house, but is completely and totally devoted to it. So let me, with slight edits, of course, because this will probably go up on YouTube, I'll read it. The house slaves, they lived in his house with the master. They dressed pretty good. They ate good because they ate his food, what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, but they still lived near their master, and they loved their master more than the master loved himself.

And really, this is the dynamic we see with Khan Inc., the conservative establishment. They're not a real party. Nick Land, in Dark Enlightenment, describes them as the designated whipping boy. And as we know, right, the whipping boy, he lived in the king's house, the castle, as it were. It's an embarrassing position, but nonetheless, there are certain advantages to it. You're not out in the field, either as a serf or as a slave. And so we have to understand that the Republican Party, conservative incorporated, they're not a real political party. Their goal is not to win. What their goal is to maximize how much they get from, you know, the master's table, as it were. You see this in the deal that they're offered. So Bogbeef, who I'm going to quote a lot actually in this conversation, he's described conservatives as the Washington generals of politics, right? They're the guys who show. up so that the Harlem Globetrotters can do, you know, dunks behind their back and wow the crowd.

They are the beautiful or designated losers, however you'd like to frame it. And how are they rewarded for that? Well, to be honest, using Malcolm X language with table scraps, they get to collect money from flyover country, from Red America. They get to be the princes of the hinterlands. And they don't actually care about winning, right? That would be difficult. That would require them to leave their relatively speaking privileged position, right? They'd have to do something dangerous, do something scary. And so the question is, right, well, why or how is this relevant to the dynamic we're seeing?

Well, because they are kind of the first among the slaves. Well, they are incredibly loyal to the masters. And you see that in the way that they enforce the sort of masters and the left's moral standards. In this case, certainly Politico broke the story. But who's wielding the hatchet? It's good conservatives. It's house conservatives. People who are well and truly owned by their, you know, at least on paper, adversaries.

So for instance, right, I think New York completely. dissolved their young Republicans. A great number of these people have lost jobs. The Trump nominee, whose name I can't remember, he is withdrawn. People have been, you know, obviously kicked out of, you know, any number of kind of beneficial arrangements. And yeah, it basically is that their, the sort of conservative right is aligned fully with their supposed enemies. Right. I pulled from another quote from Malcolm X, right? They loved their master more than their master loved himself. The master's house caught fire. The house conservative would fight harder to put the blade, or to blaze out than the master would. Effectively, those who are close to power in this sense

understand that their existence, their privileged existence, again, kind of adopt leftist framework, is dependent on the status quo, things existing how they are. We're very good at pointing this out when the left does this, right? The Spandrel's concept of biolaninism, you know, those artificially being brought up the social hierarchy and paid in loyalty. We've got to understand this doesn't just work like this for, you know, for instance, the trans community or with, you know, certain immigrant groups. It works on the conservatives as well. They are certainly the losers of politics. They're not the most capable players, but they get to play pretend. They get to make money from, you know, the sort of genanigans that enable our, you know, senators and congressmen to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

They get to be invited to the parties. And that sort of relative position is contingent on their loyalty to the system. It is not contingent on their loyalty to their base. We understand this, right? It's simple elite politics. But we've got to understand. And we have a very different relationship to the master or the master's house. We want to burn it down.

We want to challenge it at a very fundamental level. We do not receive a benefit from this system, as it were. I mean, look, Pete, I'll throw this to you, but the government's been shut down for three or four weeks now. How has this affected your life in any way? Air grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November.

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visit optionscard.i.e today The only way I can think is that tomorrow the air traffic controllers may are going to stop getting paid and I'm supposed to fly in a couple weeks. That's the only way I can think that it possibly could affect my life. Fair enough, right? And that's true, right? That would affect me when I actually will be flying at the same time. So yeah, it will affect me.

But look, like that's something that could be done another way, right? You and I don't depend for our existence on Gibbs, to be brutally honest. And this is where I pulled another quote from Audrey Lord, right? I think she's self-described as a black lesbian feminist scholar, mother, warrior, and poet. Look, I find it kind of funny to sort of use their own again there. Get a, ghetto shield maiden. Yes. We was Vikings, I believe.

But anyway, she, and this is a sort of a seminal figure in kind of like radical feminism. You'll hear her quoted a lot, particularly this concept of the master's tools. And this is in direct, I guess, indirect response to Malcolm X, is sort of using his language. In this context, she's talking about women. You can sort of imagine her going after particularly conservative religious women. So I've sort of slightly changed the wording, but the quote itself stands, for the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game,

but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatened to those conservatives who still define the master's house as their only source of support. So again, we see that tension with those technically, you know, on paper in opposition, who nonetheless derive their identity, derive their self. status from the house. So the master's tools, right? What do we mean there? We don't mean the literal stuff, of course. We mean, right, the ideological framework, their moral standards, the way in which they conceptualize the world. Effectively, their civic or state religion. Well, we see this all the

time. For instance, you know, the tired refrain of the Democrats are the real racist. Racism and allegations of racism are one of their tools, perhaps their famous tool. And now for generations, right, I mean, longer than I've been alive, longer than you've been alive, Pete, that the nominal right wing in America has tried to use that. Well, you're the real racist line. And it's sort of a rhetorical question, but, you know, how has that worked out for you? Not well. It bounces off. It's theirs. They would not allow it to be used in such a way to harm them. Similarly, in this sort of cancel culture, it's not quite what I mean, this incident with the young Republicans. The idea is, well, you know, if we set up this sort of, you know, understanding that these are the standards, that you can't be too radical behind the scenes or else you'll get driven out of politics. Okay. Well, how is that used? Is it ever used? Is it ever used? in such a way that damages the system. Clearly not. I mean, I'd say the biggest aberration from

this bias is recently what we've seen after Charlie Kirk, where a few people have been fired. One, it took a very dramatic event for that to be the case, a public assassination caught live in 4K. But also, let's be honest, there's a world of difference between, you know, a group chat behind the scenes and someone who works for the government saying, we should kill people who are like Charlie Kirk. Similarly, a lot of the kind of false nuance bros compared and contrasted this incident to the Jay Jones case, Virginia AG candidate who basically said, I think Republicans should have their children killed and then doubled down by calling and texting the person he said this to and saying, no, I am morally justified in wishing that your children were killed.

Obviously, order of magnitude, people making those comparisons are doing them cynically. But also, let's be 100% honest, when the left is freaking out about this, are they doing it honestly? No, they're clearly not. Right-wingers, conservatives in particular do not understand how the left works in this way. They see a freak out, and they assume that means we scored a point. We got them good. That's not how it works. When they're freaking out, they're gaining power.

They're motivating some sort of response either from their base or in this case, from their erstwhile. opponents. And all by effectively some moderate chimping on the internet, they were able to motivate the conservative movement, the GOP, to shoot themselves in the foot, to ban a bunch of their rising stars, you know, to get rid of a legacy institution, to do a ton of damage. And we're supposed to assume that they're scared? Of course not. They're not. There's no way. And again, I think that this concept of being devoted to the master's house, right? They are genuinely more scared of us. When I say them, I mean, you know, the House Conservatives and they are their enemies. Because if their enemies win, they still get to be the sort of but-boys of power, right?

They still get to, you know, go to the same parties, you know, collect the same nominal donations. But if we win, they don't. And that's why they're so much more concerned about, you know, a threat from, the radical right. But look, leaving the plantation, leaving the moral framework of your enemies, discarding their tools is at best a defensive position, right? You're insulating yourself from damage you do to yourself. That's not really enough. There's sort of this problem on the right in which we are entirely reactive to the left. And some of that's just by nature of the coalition. You have a weird group of people sort of brought together by their hatred for progressive norms for any number of reasons.

You know, you have, you know, pagans, Orthodox converts, and autistic libertarians sitting side by side, you know, pulling at least nominally against their enemies. So I get it, right? That's the one thing that unifies us together. But, and if you've ever been into, you know, boxing or sports, you realize this, you know, a purely defensive style does not work. You need to go on the offense. And in a war of ideas, a war of belief like ours, well, how do you do it?

Well, the answer is you have to not only deny your enemy's moral authority, deny their ability to control you through that. But also, you have to set the terms of engagement. You have to act as the first mover. The example that I think of when we look at this is Tucker Carlson, who regardless of opinion on Tucker Carlson, you have to admit that he dictates the course of the American political discourse. We are all, one way or another, talking about what Tucker is, maybe a few weeks ahead of time, but nonetheless, right, it simply is the case. And I think that serves as a good model because ultimately when they're, and we see this with actually the election of Trump as well,

especially the first time around. When they're talking about you, you are winning, because they are engaging with what you want to talk about. Similarly, right, I think that J.D. Vance actually did a quite good job reacting to the enemy, right, in this case, because he was able to both deny their framing, accomplish the sort of Perry part, but also immediately, you know, fireback. And I don't say this as a ringing endorsement of J.D. Vance and everything he thinks. But look, you know, when you're dealing with a story like this, when the vice president says something, you read it. So Vance reacted to reacted to this by posting the screenshots from Jay Jones. And he said posting the screenshot, this is far worse than anything said in that college group chat. And the guy who said it could be the AG of Virginia.

I refuse to join the pearl clutching when powerful people call for political violence. So again, we see a denial that this is anything to be working. about, right? No, I refuse to accept your ability to criticize me. And in fact, now you need to answer, right? It's a basic thing. It's saying like, no, you. But nonetheless, the difference in tone, the difference in reaction to the kind of slavish deference we see from the sort of House conservatives. And I've got an example of that in a second is stark. So I found this one response to the story that I thought was perfect because it exactly, uh, talked about or exactly sort of encapsulated what I'm talking about here. So this is from a Twitter account, hand shonity, ha ha, but it's kind of the perfect encapsulation of this loser mindset we're talking about here. I'd rather lose than unite with the alt. Right. We barely have anything in common anyway. I'm a constitutional conservative. They're authoritarian and Islam simps. I will never be part of a coalition with them. They're antithetical to everything I believe in. But that first part,

I'd rather lose is exactly the dynamic I'm talking about. It is I would rather be a slave than violate the sort of... He would have been... In Spain in 1936, he would have been machine gunned in the streets rather than Franco, who was a Catholic, siding with the Falunge, who were fascists and leaning more towards atheism and car lists and yeah he would have much rather have been machine guy i would rather lose that's the problem he doesn't fucking realize that we're in a war he doesn't realize that these people get back in power they'll want to fucking kill us because he's playing a game or more likely he's of a certain

tribe that's going to be protected because when he says when he says Islam simp what he's saying is people are against people who are speaking out against Israel or international Jewish power or APEC. That's exactly what he's saying because I know his account and I see what he put I see what he tweets all the time. Airgrid operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community.

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And I think that's the perfect example, right? You know, he is much more worried about the affront to the regime than winning, right? the affront to the kind of preexisting, I guess you could say like civic religion of post-60s America. That's the real crime. And so when we look at this, it can be confusing sometimes for people to say, like, well, why are they doing this? Like, why are they doing things which seemingly would harm their chances at winning? That's because they're not there to win. That is not their end goal. They have already won. In their mind, They're at their end state, which is, you know, I get to be in a relative sense privileged.

I get things that normal people don't. And I don't really have to work very hard. I don't have to exert myself. I'm not exposed to anything, you know, dangerous or unpleasant. So why would I put myself at risk? Why would I do anything difficult? We're going to understand they've already won in their minds. You were threatening their desired end state.

They don't view themselves as having really anything in common with you at all. They've already gotten exactly what they want. And so I really wrote this to sort of provide one, an analysis of that sort of house conservative dynamic, right? Those who are slavishly devoted to power as it exists. But also to say like, okay, well, assuming we don't want that to continue, what's the way to avoid it? And it's twofold. First is to leave the plantation, get out of their house. And that may require, giving up certain privileges and benefits, certainly, but also throw away their tools, attack them back and do so in such a way that you were in your own moral framing. And so, yeah, that's sort of the

summation of the article. Obviously, we can discuss it more there. But yeah, thanks, Pete. That's sort of, I guess, the summary of it. Yeah, the whole idea of this group that is seeking to suck up to power. I mean, I even saw this in libertarianism. The Reason Magazine and the Cato Institute, they're based out of Washington, D.C. And they get invited to the parties. And that's why they don't say anything. That's why if somebody says anything slightly racial or anybody says anything about Israel,

they have to sim for them because then they won't be invited to the parties. But it's not only that. Then I learned in 2019 that they actually have expense accounts. The people who work there have cards that they're given so they can go to lunch every day. They have everything paid for on top of their salary. So why would they do anything to rock the boat? And that's what happens with these think tanks, with the young Republicans, with all of these groups, is they're getting so much money that they don't want to, you know, they don't want to lose that. There's a fear of loss there.

Also, for anybody who's like, well, the reads their magazine and Cato Institute doesn't matter. Cato Institute matters a lot. when you see people saying, oh, open borders is good for the economy. They're quoting the Cato Institute. So don't dismiss the Cato Institute. I mean, right and left, quote the Cato Institute. So don't be like, well, they don't matter. Well, they do.

Reason Magazine, I mean, give me a phone signal and a drone. But the, yeah, I mean, you said a lot there. And really what it comes down to is it's not I don't think that they don't want to win. I think that they don't think they can win. And so I'm just going to be comfortable in what you talked about, what Mesa gives me. And if Mesa allows me to have some table scraps and I'm living a better life than those people out there and flyover country, well, you know, what's selling your soul a little bit when you don't even believe you have a soul? Well, and I think that there is also a problem with a lack of a definite positive vision. Because if your issue with the left is either one of management, we're not headed towards this end goal in the most efficient way or rapidity.

We're just simply moving too fast. Ultimately, your end state is the same. It's a very weak basis of opposition. You probably see this best in the UK Conservative Party, which is significantly to the left of even the Republicans, where they very much have this objection on kind of a technical managerial level. So the problem is not immigration. It's that immigration is causing XYZ issue. the problem is not, you know, XYZ social decay. And I think that that's another problem as well is that ultimately their winning is not their

version like ideal state is really not that different. Now, some of this may be lacking conceptual framework. I think that is very true. And I've noticed this with the real world conservatives I talk to, that even if they do have deep in their bones, kind of a far right vision of the future or ideal. They don't have a good way to express that. So they'll reflexively express themselves in sort of the left of another era. So you'll hear things like, you know, well, that's just what I think and you don't have

to agree with me. Or, again, the kind of comments about race we said earlier. And if you dig a little bit deeper, they don't actually think that. But they're so used to, you know, being attacked that they're sort of trying to express a very limited degree of resistance they think they can get away with. Slight sidebar issue. I think this is how a lot of people end up as libertarian is that it's a way to sort of sidestep uncomfortable thorny questions that can get you in trouble by saying, oh, I'm neither right nor left, you know, by framing things purely in the terms of the market instead of you're saying something that could get you in trouble. So I think that's part of it as well.

And the problem is that sort of weak, tactically allowable opposition, which I think is a very deliberate strategy, where you can quibble on implementation. You can quibble on speed. Because given a long enough time, it doesn't matter if you're driving at 30 miles an hour or 60 miles an hour, eventually you will reach your destination. And I think that that is sort of a deliberate push pull up until relatively recently, and we could argue even now, the pressure release valve is towards the kind of, I guess you could say, making the system more efficient. This is a point you see in Ted Kaczynski's, the system's greatest trick, right? This sort of canned rebellion, the rebellion that offers you nothing more than a way to make the system as it exists more efficient. And what's funny is, you know, he's writing from Supermax at this point. And so you kind of have to read between the lines because you realize he can't really say a whole lot and get it past the sensors.

But he's talking about, you know, obviously he was in, I guess you could say eco-fascist is a term some of you used to describe him. But he talks about the distraction of, you know, something like racism, we're anti-racist protesting. Now, look, Ted Kay is kind of a boomer. So like, you know, take him for what he's worth. But he says things like even if you get exactly what you want, you know, you get rid of racism. You get rid of racial oppression. All you will have done is make the system marginally more efficient at doing what it does. And so really, the version of the Republican Party, the conservative movement that is ultimately

obsessed with things like the budget and the deficit, which let's be honest, the deficit is a real issue, but the kind of like Paul Ryan-esque Tea Party conservatives, I mean, realistically, all they are doing is making the system oppressing their people better at what it does. So I think that the basis of opposition is an important thing to consider as well. Now, One of the things that I think is interesting in this is that, look, regardless of your opinion on Vance or Tucker, there's a way in which, and this is something, I think, if nothing else we could take as a win from the Trump era, is that by being shown something or something being put in words, suddenly it becomes possible again. You have a term for it. You've seen that, as the meme goes, you just can do things. And so I think the fact that, you know, people realize like, oh, wait, you know, the leftist Whig history, the idea that things are constantly ever turning to the left, things are getting more progressive forever, is not necessary. It doesn't have to be that way. I think that that's a positive thing. And maybe that's as part of the generational divide we're seeing is that younger people see that there is a possibility for true rebellion on this front. There's a, there's a possibility. There's a possibility.

to do something actually revolutionary and right wing for as much as those terms mean in this context. Whereas those a little bit older are still living in the world where we are negotiating the terms of left word entropy. That is simply the allowable, I guess, basis of discussion. Maybe that's part of it from we consider the kind of the normal people. I view those, you know, at the top of this kind of coordinating it is completely bought and sold, but I guess I'll carve out a possibility that someone could be kind of genuine in this. Just a sidebar issue, one of the things reading through this that I thought was really stupid, is it's incredibly clear that most of these texts are jokes.

Like you have the chair of some committee basically saying, yeah, if you don't vote for me, I'll put you in the gas chamber. Like clearly he's joking. He's talking to like a group of 12 people. Is he going to build a gas chamber? Like, of course not. It's ridiculous. Similarly, I think there's another element to it as well.

fraternities do this, you know, other kind of groups where they sort of make you do something minorly illegal together so that you can see one who chickens out and also you're kind of bound together by that act. You know, a lot of times it's like stealing signs or stealing from other fraternities like stuff that's not like no one's dying, you know, but it's again like a way to sort of bind an in-group and an out-group. And that sort of minor transgression is something you see all the time. But yeah, I think that let's be honest, the criticisms of these people is by and large, in my mind, complete and total, like cynical opportunism. It is a way to purge a genuine threat to your position as kind of a privileged slave in

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OptionsCard is Ireland's brand new multi-choice employee gift card packed with unique features that your staff will love. It's simple to buy, easy to manage, and best of all, there are no extra fees or hidden catches. Visit OptionsCard.i.e. today. Well, I think one of the things that when you see somebody a populist get elected, and they talk about reforming the system. And those of us who know that the system is a managerial system,

and that it's basically designed to fight off any kind of foreign element that threatens it. The only other way that you could possibly work that system is, you have to take your people have to take over your people have to take control and that basically calls for purges and you have to purge you and i'm not talking about killing people and i mean you just got to fire everyone you got to put your own people in there um at some point you're going to run out of competent people so you're going to be guilty of biolaninism and the system is going to continue to do what it does except now you're running it and then you know i always think about um conquest, second law, I think it's also called those Sullivan's law about any, any organization

that's not explicitly right wing will always turn to the left. And the problem I see is that even for those who think that Trump has come to save the day, I mean, I don't. I always said that he, it's funny, for a year I said he's a stopgap. And now people are saying that I, like, I see people, like posting my name, of course they don't tag me and saying that I said that Trump came to save them. Show me where I said. Please give me some receipts on that. But the problem is, is that when you have, when it's infested with your own people, look, if you're going to take over managerial system and you're going to be explicitly right wing, you're going to need explicitly, you're going to be able to, you're going to have to hire millions of people who are explicitly right wing.

That's not possible. It's not possible at all. Sure, all of us know people who are explicitly right wing, but I mean, that's anecdotal at this point. There are people who, you know, it's like the whole remigration thing, mass deportations.

I'm like, that's never going to happen. You're going to have, I'm not even boomers. You're just going to have people who've bought into like constitutional politics who are gonna see their neighbor who's been living next to them forever getting pulled out of their house and they're going to fight you. And these are gonna be people who voted for Trump. These are gonna be people who can consider themselves

to be right wing. You're there is no right way. I mean, there is a right wing, but it's a remnant. It's a small group right now. What does Thomas call it? He says it's a vanguard. There's nobody. And if you think that this is going to be, you can populate this with right wingers,

I mean, you're out of your mind in the first place. You'd have to get it down to its smallest components. And then when you're talking about that, you're just in libertarian land. Now, oh, we just got to get it down to, you know, just the Constitution. And it's five pages. And you can read it in 20 minutes. That's not happening. There's too.

When you take into consideration that you need the system to defeat however that. that looks, your enemies, the regime right now, you're going to need that system. You're propagating the system. You're keeping it going. The problem isn't like the people in the system. Sure, they're a problem. But the real problem is just the system. It's how this system is run. And the fact that you can get 70% people on your side in that system. But if you have things, 30% of people who are just managerial by nature. They've been doing this job for 20 years. You're never going to be able to take it over.

You're never going to be able to stop it. You're always going to have somebody who's sticking, you know, sticking a pipe in the spokes to stop you. And so it's at this point, it's like, okay, we see quote unquote right wingers, young Republicans getting canceled by their own side because when it's right wingers, it's always our own people who are doing the doxing or doing all this stuff. It's always on your own side who's doing it. And so how do you, how do you think you're going to put together a coalition until, I mean, I think the only chance

you have, and then at this point I even question it, is until left to start pulling people out in the streets and start executing them. I mean, At this point, I'm looking at people who are like arguing about how, oh, Besson, what Besson's doing. Yeah, what Besson's doing at Treasury could be great for the next three years. And we may be able to benefit for it by it for three years. But who the hell knows what happens after the next three years? Who knows what happens after the midterms? I mean, you're talking about what, a year?

Maybe if the midterms go the wrong way, you're talking? about a year where everything's going to grind to a halt, not only is everything going to grind to a halt, but you're going to be looking at impeachment again. You're going to be looking at all the same stuff that we saw the first time. And people are like leaking texts and talking about how we have to, you know, 100% support Trump because Trumps are. Okay. Sure. Counter anything I just say. Say anything I just said was a lie. Say I'm wrong about anything I just said. I'll wait here. I'll wait for someone to say that I'm wrong about all of that. Because if you've opened your eyes and you've watched this thing happen,

I'm not even talking about the fact that basically what I was talking about for a year, about how there were factions vying for Trump, vying to control Trump. And it's completely obvious that the Zionist faction has won so far. I mean, I'll give the benefit of the doubt so far. What am I supposed to be? how am I supposed to feel, how's my white pill about national politics?

I can be white-pilled about what the old glory club is doing. I can be white-pilled about what I do in my own community. I can be white-pilled about what we can do local politics because I somewhat have my hands in that. But thinking that anything is going to get solved from up there in the system that has been going for 100 years and is like, I mean, the brakes are off. the train and it's just hurtling down the track well who who's going to be able to get a hold of that

train i mean this isn't a freaking denzil washington movie there you're not going to get that train how do you get that train other than you have to figure out exactly who is in control of that train and it's this gigantic system this octopus this leviathan and then what do you how do you infect the leviathan and kill it. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just asking questions here, but if someone, if someone wants to like tell me where I'm wrong, I'll listen to it. If someone wants to just be mad at me, I'm, you know, I don't have time for it, but I don't think I'm wrong. So there are a couple things there, which is one, and there are receipts on this. I've been, you know, doing the current events show with Thomas. I mean, for almost a year now, actually probably more than that.

And throughout the whole sort of Trump 2.0, I've had effectively the same point, which is, look, like, Trump isn't going to get us there. But you're dumb if you think we'd be better off under Kamala Harris. And that's the argument I've been making to people who are like, you supported Trump. You told us to vote for Trump. I live here. Even if I did, even if I did convince you to vote for Trump and you voted for Trump, what's your complaint? You're embassion. grow the fuck up. Grow the fuck up, you little kid, you little bitch. Okay. I told you to vote for Trump because I thought I knew it was going to look, I'd rather the leftist come from me in three years when I could be when I could plan for that and you know and you know, worry about that down the line and plan for it now. Then it's starting a year ago. And I think it's also relevant to say that even as someone who is relatively pessimistic about. party politics in America. From a certain perspective, we've gotten more than we could have reasonably expected to.

Like, okay, let's take DHS at their word. I don't know how many people they say they've gotten out, but all right, it's something, you know, like, fair enough. But I think that there is this recurring meme online, whereas the two acceptable camps are either, one, you support Trump or your blackpilling, and the other side says, oh, you either effectively freak out about everything he's doing and talk about he's Zion Don. Like, those are your only two available positions. And look, man, like, again, I maintain that we've gotten more from Trump over the course of

his career than we reasonably could have expected to from any other politician on both a practical, political and also like a, I guess we could say, like a spiritual or like dialectic level, right, where the conversation has gone. And I view that as a definite win. And when we talk about factions, I think your analysis of the Trump administration, which is that the Zionist neo-con, and heavy scare quotes faction has been winning, clearly, within the administration. And in the immediate term, that is what matters. But to me, on I guess population level, the fact that that support base, right, the kind of good normal conservatives who have lent a lot of weight to American support for Zionism, that base is decaying.

A lot of them are aging out, right, reaching, you know, the point at which, you know, boomers who are the most kind of inundated in the post-war consensus are, that generation is declining, you know, sadly enough. And I mentioned someone like Tucker, but also, I mean, look at Jimmy Dore on the left, that cultural narrative is falling apart. And so to me, I'm incredibly optimistic while still not expecting Donald Trump to, you know, sort of function as the, you know, the reincarnated version of in Q thought, is he JFK reincarnated? I can't remember, whatever the Q-Tarts think about him, you know, this sort of mythical figure designed to, you know, restore the Republic. And so look, like, does that get us to our desired end state, right, whatever we all individually want?

No. But I love talking to guys who've been in this fight for a long time. Because over and over again, they say, like, why are you upset? Why are you blackpilling? Because, yeah, Donald Trump loves Israel. Donald Trump seems to be an Israel first president. Okay, yeah. But then again, what president in my lifetime hasn't?

That's sort of a given. That's just how it works. So you can almost take that away as a determinant factor because every president likely to get to that point has that same thing. So if you're making a comparative judgment, which one is better one over the other, if all of them have that thing in common, I mean, honestly, man, what's the point of talking about it past a certain point? But when I see the growth of a real resistance, a growth of people who have firmly decided to walk off the plantation, discard the master's tools, and give it a go. I'm really excited by that. Genuinely, very excited. And this is another thing you hear from Thomas, but also, you know,

any number of the kind of old resistance guys, the ability to insulate yourself from the kind of social pressure and, you know, social consequences of defying the regime have never been higher. Part of this is the internet, which admittedly could be shut off tomorrow and you and I Pete would have to real jobs, but that's probably relatively unlikely. But even the fact that you can coordinate, you can find people who share your values and you'll ameliorate the kind of isolation that comes with opposing the predominant social beliefs of your day. So, I mean, yeah, look, man, I completely share your opinions on Trump. Like, I don't really like a lot of what he's doing. But it kind of depends on your one, your expectations of Trump or any politician.

I never really expected him to do anything I liked. So when you get one or two, you're like, oh, hey, you know, it's not ideal, but, you know, it's better than what I thought. You know, it's like when you go to the mechanic and you're expecting to spend a couple grand and it's only 500 bucks and you're like, hey, you feel like you're winning. It's sort of, I guess, my reaction to the whole thing. And additionally, you know, as regards the way people talk about this, I think that the the short attention span of on the internet, right?

The way in which everything is cyclical and X has made this worse through its, you know, monetization features, which kind of prioritize these, these highly, highly controversial engagement-based posts. So you start to see the same thing cycle through over and over again. It dilutes the actual arc of, you know, a movement or a narrative. And Stormy talks about this quite a lot and I have no reason to think that he's But even in my own life, I have seen beliefs that five or ten, yet alone even two or three years ago, would have been the most radical thing you could imagine, right?

You have to go to the deep, dark corners of the internet, expressed by very normal people. And does that mean that woke is dead? Does that mean that, you know, our relationship with Israel is over? No, because we understand, right, that the organized minority will defeat a disorganized majority, 100%. I agree with that premise. But at the same time, any regime, ours included, requires a certain amount of moral buy-end. They require a moral unity between the ruler and the ruled. And in a way, the House Conservatives functioned to make sure that the loyal opposition, right, the oppositional party, were still on side ultimately. And they made sure that they didn't get too far out.

So the moral unity would be broken in a time when, you know, the nominal right was no longer in power. Now, this started to break down, not, you know, sort of before my time, right, but in the kind of post-Cold war era, you see the rise of every election being declared illegitimate. But that crack, right, in the moral foundation of society has massively widened, especially, you know, in the post-COVID years, especially, you know, in the post, you know, kind of, you know, Israel Hamas era. And so to me, you know, I'm primarily concerned with trend lines. That doesn't necessarily mean that things will get better, you know, today, tomorrow, three weeks from now. But ultimately, I look at, you know, the things as being relatively rosy for us. You know, we have a

chance. And during the Biden years, you know, during the time when I was sincerely worried about ever being able to have a job because I didn't get the jab, and there didn't see. seem to be any hope at all. So again, comparatively, things are going quite well. And I think also we have to understand that that relationship of the sort of privileged few in Washington, the rhino class, well, I don't think that's ever going away. What we have seen is that in the same way that Trump shaped the conceptual landscape of what is possible, he has also shown Republican voters. what is possible. They expect more of their elected officials. And that does that mean that Trump is like a god king? Does that mean that he's my favorite politician ever? No. But it's much harder

to slide. It's much harder to, you know, get along with the kind of like bare minimum, you know, in a world in which there is an alternative. And also I think that in reaction to Trump, And I think it was Catgirl Coolock wrote this essay comparing Trump to like an anaphylactic reaction, where it's basically like Trump is the system of power eating a peanut butter sandwich. He's completely and totally harmless. But if your body thinks that peanut butter contains a deadly toxin, it will produce a reaction, an allergic reaction which could kill you, even the substances. It's relatively innocuous. I think that that is something Trump has created as well, which is that he is supercharged

the hatred for the conservative, for the nominal right wing in America. Obviously, we see this in the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which we discussed last time, which has made the position of House conservatives even less tenable, because that depended on there being a relationship where the master would give you table scraps. And if the master looks at his, you know, his whipping boy and says, wait a minute, you know, you're a Nazi. You get the bullet too. Just out of simple self-preservation, either those people will be forced to abandon their previous position or they won't be around for long. It's not a threat and elected official at all.

I'm just saying, you know, given current trends of, you know, left-wing political violence. So anyway, it's probably a little bit unorganized way to wrap that up, Pete. But do you see what I'm getting at there? I see what you're getting at. I got a couple things there. One, populism isn't going to change anything. We need elites. We need people who are powerful, who are adopting those opinions.

I think it is great that people are starting to open their eyes to, you know, America's greatest ally and seeing that conservatives are, I think that can help them in their personal life to be able to avoid traps and know what, you know, what not to say and what to say. and, you know, to just be able to navigate the reality that we live in. But also everything that you've said there is really only, is only useful by an organized group. And that organized group is not going to be political. It's not going to be in Washington, D.C., at least not in our lifetimes. We're looking at something much longer here.

So while people are abandoning conservatives, and while people are seeing our greatest ally as the maniacs and psychopaths that they are, there's nothing that we can do. There's nothing that D.C. is going to do about it. There's no action that's going to be taken. Now, if it is, and I'm proven wrong, I will do my mea culpa's, and I will say that I was wrong. But understanding everything that you said there and not disagreeing with any of it,

It's just knowing how to take that energy, that forward movement and use it. And really at this point, the only way to use it is privately and locally, or maybe possibly statewide if it's small enough state if you're, you know, depending on populations and stuff like that. So, you know, my argument was never that people aren't waking up to these realities and people aren't abandoning conservatism. My argument and the stance that I will stay on is the fact that nothing is going to change D.C. unless there is a root and branched branch tear out.

So I think that's where I'm hung from. Well, and I think that goes back to, and this is one of those quotes that, you know, if you look on Google, you'll find like 30 different famous people who are all alleged to have said it. the idea that politics fundamentally is the art of the possible, right? You're taking what is within your reach. And if we look at ours, right, the people listening to this podcast who for the most part are sort of Kulaks, right? People who are, you know, it might be small businessmen.

They have some level of agency, but they are not by and large cultural elite. There are some exceptions, of course, but if our entire listener base was, you know, we're you're powerful and deeply entrenched in Washington, we would live in a very different world. So fundamentally, if we do these sort of grand exercises and many of them are these kind of hypotheticals, you know, what would I do if I were in charge? Fair enough, of course, it's useful, right? You can sort of war game it out. But that's not really a great first start. You know, it's the underpants gnomes, you know, or it's that meme from despicable me, you know, step one, you know, talk about it on a podcast, step two question mark, step three,

rule the world. Turns out that intermediate step is incredibly important. And so when we talk about a, you know, a localized strategy, it's like, well, a localized strategy does not in and of itself immediately fix all of our issues. But what it is, is it a logical next step, right? You're like, okay, well, here's what we have. Here's the next thing up the sort of tech tree, right? If you're the kind of person who plays map video games, right? Then the next logical step. And I think, again, And this is a problem of the gap between what is fun to talk about and what is useful to do, which are sort of two separate buckets. Again, as some guy with a podcast, I realize I'm guilty of this as well.

But the idea is not simply to say, you know, forever focus only on the local. But it's to say like you have personal agency. No one denies that. But there's a relative, there's a limited scope to that. And so effectively, what can we affect right now? Now, what can we do to build power? This is something that the neo-reactionaries accurately saw as a problem with right-wing Americans, conservatives, is that they love to sort of celebrate and spike the football the moment they

get a win. Like, all right, we showed them, we got it. And yeah, sure, that makes you feel good. And sometimes you need a psychological win. You need the blue-haired professor from whatever, some university in Tennessee getting fired for making a Charlie Kirk joke. That's good for a number of reasons. We're not necessarily in scope of this conversation.

But the way that you win, and we see this with the cultural left, is that you never stop fighting. It's sort of this slow, gradual process. Anyone who's done grappling will get this, you know, the kind of like dragging someone into deep water, you know, slowly taking an inch, taking an inch, taking an inch, until you've, you know, you got their back. You got the choke wrapped in deep. And that's not fun.

You know, it's not as cool as, you know, the 30 second knockout, right? But fundamentally, right, like, we want to win. Because as you said earlier, like the consequences of losing are no longer what they once were. It is no longer that, you know, you don't get what you want, but you get to, you know, take your ball and go home. This has genuinely become, and you see this in the example of, you know, Kirk, let alone, you know, many others that, to fact that you could just be canceled, right, from within your own ranks. It has become existential. And so that requires a certain amount of discipline, right, to do the things that aren't necessarily fun to do that aren't necessarily the kind of like highlight real stuff, but are very

necessary to actually winning. And yeah, I think that that's probably pretty much my, my thoughts on the subject, Pete. Yeah, I get it. I mean, I think we agree. And I think that's why we, you know, chase the same goals and everything. It's just that, you know, having a realistic, you know, you can have nuance to be used on things. One of the problems that we have in today, and especially it's very rampant on the internet,

is everybody sees things black or white. You know, it's you, if you support this person for any reason, if you say this person is doing anything for any reason, you're totally in that person's camp you agree with everything they're doing you think that they're you think that they're jesus christ incarnate you know and it's like well no i can have a nuance view on any on pretty much anyone you know there's i think tucker is doing amazing work and there's some episodes i just completely skip because it's like i mean there's nothing i don't think there's anything

there for me um he says some things every once in a while that make me cringe oh well everyone says something every once in a while that makes me cringe. I mean, and I'm literally talking about everyone that I know people I record podcasts with, you know, come on, stop. And I don't think that they're, they're bad people because I disagree with them on a couple things or, you know, whatever their dad used to do or something, or even what they might have used to do or something like that. That's why it's important to get to know people in real life, I think. I think you've, you've come to realize that too as somebody who was hanging out with people this past weekend. Yeah, it's, it's much more, things are much more complicated.

People want to make it very easy. People see their solutions as being very easy, but they don't really, I think a lot of people just don't understand that if you focus in on one thing like, oh, if we can just get our, greatest ally, you know, in check, everything will get better. Well, if that's, if you actually believe that, you're wrong. Um, if we can just, um, you know, Islam is, Islam is such a problem. And it's like, okay, well, really, really wasn't a problem from the last crusade until about the late in 1800s. So what happened, what happened in the late 1800s, you know, um, yeah. So, I mean, I just, I think people really need to.

I ask people to. I'm not saying you really need to because that makes it look like I'm telling you something to do. Please consider looking at things in a more nuanced way. Please consider taking the time to understand exactly where we're at, what we're going through and what tools we have to achieve what, you know, the goals that you have. and also once you accept the fact that most of the goals you have for,

if you're one of these people who cares about society, who cares about America, let's just go with America and Americans and heritage Americans. If you care about them, everything that you're doing right now, you're doing for a future generation to benefit from because it's not going to happen now. It's not that easy.

This is a multi, this, there's a possibility, but really anyone who has, anyone who knows anything about history and reads anything about history knows that Rome pretty much started to fall about 300 years before it fell. So, you know, and you could say, oh, well, technology and the internet, sure, that may cut it in half. That may even cut it 75%. It's still not your lifetime. So, you know, work towards, be realistic and work towards what you can, what you can do.

And try not to make, in the process, try not to make it your identity because that's a, that's a dangerous thing. Yeah, well, it's sort of, and we, we love to make fun of the libs for Harry Potter brain. But, you know, a lot of people do really operate off of, we can consider it like Star Wars brain. you know, the idea that you blow up the Death Star and that's it. You know, you just do the thing, as millennials are willing to say. You throw the emperor down a pit and now we did it, you know, we solved the problem. And while there are certain instances where, you know, there was just one piece and everything fell into place, it's incredibly rare circumstances.

And what makes this system difficult, and this is something that, you know, even if he's not so fashionable to talk about now, Moldbug was quite good at pointing out that there's really no one guy. There's no one, like, you know, Mr. Democrat, you know, sitting at the top, you know, twirling kind of Zezer's mustache, you know, kind of issuing orders. This is a decentralized system. Burnham talking about, you know, managerialism, understood that this is a complicated, intertwined network of people pulling the same direction. And things can be changed, of course. That's the project we were engaged in. But if you were waiting for the one time where you just have to do something dramatic,

like the J-Sixers thought that you'd get it all done, I'm sorry, it's not how it works. And do I think that the J-Sixers should have been imprisoned? No, I don't. But that same foolish, I guess you could say, inclination is all too common, even among people who consider themselves better than or superior to. you know, the J-Sixers. And yeah, I think that that's a, it's another form of kind of losers mentality as we've been discussing. All right, Jay. Tell everybody where they can find you. Yeah, so my normal output is the Jay Birden Show. You can find that Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

anywhere you listen to podcasts. Format is you get an hour-long interview five days a week. A lot of content, a lot of the same guys you'll be familiar with from Pete's show just recently. had Jeff Diced on. An episode should be out about the same time this is. So if you're interested, check it out wherever you listen to podcasts. All right. And make sure to go over and support Jay's work. He's doing amazing work.

I support Jay and I jump all over a new episode when it comes out. I was halfway through the Jeff Diced episode when we right as we were starting to connect. So, yeah, I appreciate it, Jay. Thank you very much. And we'll talk again soon.