The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1295: The Death of the 'Conservative Industrial Complex' w/ Christopher Sandbatch

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

72 MinutesPG-13Christopher Sandbatch joins Pete to talk about the rapid decline of organized, Conservative influence.Sandbatch's SubstackSandbatch on TwitterPete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's Substack Pete's SubscribestarPete's PaypalPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

You know, If you want to get the show early and ad-free, head on over to the piquinez Show.com. There, you can choose from where you wish to support me. Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me about this, even though I think on the last ad, I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed, you're going to have to subscribe through substack or through Patreon. You can also subscribe on my website, which is right there, gumroad, and what's the other one? Subscribe star.

And if you do that, you will get access to the audio file. So head on over to the Pekignonez Show.com. You'll see all the ways that you can support me there. And I just want to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can put out the amount of material that I do. I can do what I'm doing with Dr. John. on 200 years together and everything else. The things that Thomas and I are doing together on Continental Philosophy,

it's all because of you. And, yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank you enough. So thank you. The Pekingona Show.com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingiena show. After, it's been a while. I think we haven't talked since I was reading the Lutewock book.

Chris Sandbatch is here. Hey, you know, Chris? He said, I was on, we were on Pony Express together a couple of times. Ah, there we go. When I go on Pony Express, I just talk. Like, I just like push everyone else out of the way and just talk. If you, if you don't do that, you're not going to get heard on that show. You know, me, that's what it's because you know, you know, like everybody knows,

I used to do like TRS shows and we used to have like the really brainy shit on TRS long time ago. And that was like my early like formative podcast experiences are like you're on a show with like 10 dudes that are 10 years older than you and like everyone has something to say about everything. So you just you have to just like you have to like force your way in. Yeah. Yeah. Those are. I've been on some shows. Some people who are listening to this may not realize this, but I was on Tim Poole once.

really i was on i was on the tim pool show once yeah that's one of those shows that if you don't interrupt people you're not going to get heard yeah yeah oh man just talking and everybody's talking and saying absolutely nothing last time i was in nashville i saw like billboards for tim pool so that's like a that's like a billboard show i remember you saying that talking about that um all right let's um i mean no better time to talk about this subject than everything that's going to on at heritage. I mean, it's really showing, I never thought we'd get to this point where it people just see that when it comes to con ink and it comes to all of these conservative think tanks that the emperor, the emperor has no clothes. You know, I don't actually know. I was like,

there's like a weird, there's some elements, some because I'm in, I'm in the group chats with some, with some like important people. And so it's really people that do a lot of contracts. and that sort of thing with some of the bigger conservative media companies. But mostly for the last year and a half or so, I've been a fucking poet is what I've been doing. And so like there's a sense in which a lot of this stuff flows over me, like an oil slick on top of the ocean now. But recently, I mean, because like it's almost been like, there's a, there's a movie that I love called like Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy.

And there's like a really important. Yeah, it's a good movie. Yeah, there's an important moment when I think Jerry Westerby, the character Jerry Westerby is explaining to George Smiley what happened when he was in Istanbul, because he was on this assignment in Istanbul, and he's going to go meet this woman. And then there's this line. And then all at once, the Russians began to move. Okay.

And like that seems to be what's happened in the last couple of weeks. There's just been like, like something happened. started rolling everywhere. And so I know some of it, but I don't know all of it. And I'm not entirely certain what the hell's happened at Heritage. So you have to fill me in. Well, I mean, you know, it's just one of those things that it seems like Tucker having, you know how you have those, you know, like October 7th was changed a lot.

Like the conversation, Tucker having Fuenteson is another one of those moments. where it's like you just saw the reaction to it was you i mean it was like the wall fell i i remember yeah i'm i'm i'm old i remember the day the wall came down i remember 1989 oh wow i was born in 1989 i'm old now too and you're even older than me i'm sitting there watching on holy shit all right well all this all this that i've this scaremongering that i've had to put up with growing up well I guess that might be gone. But, you know, it changes everything. And it seems like, like Heritage, Kevin Roberts, the president, comes out and says, you know,

apparently people were saying, you have to denounce Tucker. And he's like, no, we're not going to denounce Tucker. And he gets, he gets up there and he goes, I'm not going to denounce Tucker. You know, I consider a lot of what Nick says to be vile and everything. But, and then the backlash against that was, okay, he needs to walk that back. And then he starts walking it back, walking it back. They fire the guy who, like, wrote the script for him in the video. Or they move him to another department, quote, unquote.

Yeah. And then now you just had another, like, some guy who's been at heritage for years or for decades is like, I'm leaving because I can't be part of a thing, you know, an organization that Kevin Roberts won't step down from. He's still the president there. And it's like, this is, this happened because of a podcast. Yeah, it's real Steiner's attack vibes. You know what I mean? It's like, like sometimes I get the end to get like and heritage is of course. And I used to work with heritage somewhat.

I've done, I've done a couple of like strange, not public facing projects with with heritage when Martin Meadows was there. And I don't know that he, I don't know that he is now or whatever. You remember President Trump's chief of staff, I guess, in his first term. But, you know, there's two things that are going on here immediately. I mean, well, there's really, there's three things. So you have October 7th. You have Tucker Carlson. And you have this, like, figure who has become, and like, I say I'm old.

But, I mean, my time hanging around in the hoopment, as it is, like, more or less corresponds exactly to when Fuentes started doing his show. And the other thing is the abstract concept of Nick Fuentes. And it's really interesting to watch all of these things come to a head at one time. Because, like, I mean, do you have October 7th on one hand? Okay, yeah. So now all of a sudden, the United States has, we're like full court press for Israel. The United States is involved, first of all, the United States is involved.

in a wink-wink, not a war with Russia. We're like, you know, we're funneling our entire weapon stash to Ukraine. We're involved in this, you know, this very, essentially near-peer engagement in Eastern Europe, of all places. And the Israelis choose this moment to decide that they also need a full court press on essentially lands in the United States. fighting a two two front proxy war and they have burned over the course of the last year so they've burned every bit of political capital they have on either side of the political spectrum which is

really kind of fascinating because I never thought I would get to this moment where you uh where it's like I said a couple of days ago the United like when you have this idea of the bipartisan consensus Like, you know, it was like the unified establishment. We're in this, like, weird diatic situation now where on one hand, both of the political parties are nominally, like, staunchly Zionists. They're very strong Zionists. And then, on the other hand, popular opinion is possibly the most unifying issue in American politics right now is the idea of disengaging with Israel's bullshit.

Because, like, they have just something they've, like, you know, they do just everything. It's like, okay, yeah, Charlie Kirk gets killed in the same, like, in the mayhem, Israel decides to launch missiles at every country they possibly can. Our, another sort of weird, interesting thing that happened recently, right around the time the Charlie Kirk, Charlie Curt murder was that, you know, like there was a meeting of the Arab nations where they decided on intelligence and weapons sharing in the face of unified American, Israeli, unified of American. Israeli, you know, action that sort of de facto creates this situation where, you know, because Pakistan has nuclear weapons that, you know, we could have literally like nuclear weapons moving among all these, all these various Arab states that are, you know, a part of this, that are a part of this coalition. And all of this is because of America's sort of, you know, steadfast support for this

essentially bully state, this tiny little bully state that's like sort of geopolitically irrelevant to our real strategic interests. And the thing is, everybody knows that. Everybody knows that we're not getting, there might have been a time whenever we got, whenever there was a big leaf of something that we get out of an Israel, out of an engagement with Israel. But I mean, that's gone now. And really, all it is, it's the vestiges of what's left of the British Empire. And we just kind of like have to clean up their mess and that it's not worth it anymore. And America as a general rule is tired of that. Okay, and so now you have these two things.

And now you have, that's the sort of situation. Then you have Tucker Carlson, who is, you know, whatever else said, Tucker says some wild shit. And like, probably nobody more similar to me in terms of like what a major political figure would look like. I mean, he even flashes his picture of Jerry Garcia, you know, in his, like, yeah, he's, Tucker's a dead head.

He's gonna do deadhead stuff. We're going to do shows about aliens, you know, but we're also going to be like, hey, man, let's listen to this Nick Fuentes kid and see what he's got to say, man. You know, and so, you know, from Tucker's perspective, which is for all kinds of reasons that we're really here to talk about, totally unmoored from the sort of party line establishment, from the sort of, you know, from the need to really please anybody. So he brings Nick Fuentes on and everybody loses their shit, you know, okay. And, you know, Fuentes is this figure that he's kind of this joker figure.

I think everybody that I know has been out of shape one way or the other about Nick Fuentes recently. And I'm like, he should get out to take Nick Fuentes with a grain of salt. You know, he's a media figure more than he's like a jokester media figure more than he is anything else. And like, I actually watched his material. He's, he's funnier than he used to be. You know, he says funny things.

He says clever things. I don't think he's really a threat to anybody politically because he's like just, he's like such a like a like a pure media, more like Johnny Carson than he has anything else, if you ask me. I don't know he's a real threat to anybody, but, you know, so Tucker has him on. And so everybody in heritage loses their mind. This is what happened. I'm like, I'm on board with it now. The problem with Nick is that his audience is very young.

And if you remember shortly after October 7th, all of these leaked audio started coming out where like Jonathan Green, Blad and even Benjamin Nanyahu said, look, if we lose the young people, we're done. You know, we need that next generation, and that's who Nick speaks to. And he basically does a really good job. If he wasn't like bombastic and hyperbolic, he could sit there and he could explain, like, you know, why the history of Israel, their influence over the government, Jewish history, things like that. And people would still be, people would still get it. The problem is that he is over the top, says some crazy stuff.

And I think that scares him because what they see is they see somebody who is not only educating young people about this subject, but he's energizing them about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's true. I mean, but like, I, the thing that like sort of like groc, that sort of lands on me whenever I look at this is that, and this is speaks quite a bit to like one of the reasons why I'm here is to talk about the decoupling between actual politics and the business of media, particularly the business of conservative media. Because I mean, any, like Israel's perspective is slightly different because it is existential to them. Like if you lose, they lose American support, who they're going to go to?

like people you know like the israeli supporters in the american establishment will say well they're going to go to china or they're going to go to russia but china neither china nor russia wants to have anything to do with them because like this is a i mean this is a it's a collapsing state is what it is you know it's like it's their days are numbered it's like what like a hundred miles wide and they're entirely dependent on like exogenous support from this one country to uh to, you know, secure their existence and the way they've behaved in the last 10 years. I mean, I was just walking to the cafe this morning and like the local lefties have like, the local lefties have like papered, have like flired the like in all of Carrollton Avenue in New Orleans

with hunt the IDF stickers. Everybody's sick of them. It's a dead. Politically, they are a dead letter in the United States. However, from their perspective, they have to continue. They have to do everything they can to try and slow this down or reverse it. And they don't have a great toolkit at their disposal. And so, yeah, going after somebody like Nick Fuentes, it's high profile for them.

And I think that's one of the reasons why we see this sort of outsized reaction is, you know, well, I mean, there's a couple of reasons. But this is in fact existential for the Israeli state. the declining American support. I mean, like, really, I mean, you have concerns about J.D. Vance's electability. But, I mean, I can't, after Donald Trump, I can't see the next president prioritizing Israel's needs in any way, shape, or form. You know, like, there's, like, nobody on the horizon that looks like they're going to be willing to pick up that mantle. And so, like, politically, it looks like, to me, Israel's a dead letter.

Like, you know, they're going to, we're going to keep doing this for a couple more years, but as the boomers age out, and they're aging out rapidly now, though, you know, the dominant political demographics in the United States are whatever you tell them in the media, they're sick of Israel, you know. And so you have this, you have this disjunct between media messaging about Israel and, you know, what everyone knows is the on the ground reality of it. well that's the part that's yet to be seen right i mean and in 2028 you could have both party neither party running off of uh an israel platform but that doesn't stop that doesn't stop the legislators from being pro israel and i think that's what you know that's who you know A-PAC, and not only A-PAC, there's a ton of other organizations. That's who they're targeting. But, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that it's pretty much, I mean, it's over for them.

They're not going to get the next generation. They're not going to get money from the next generation. Gen X has no money. Millennials have no money. Gen Z has less money. Right. So once the boomers, once the boomers go away, like places like heritage that rely upon, obviously rely upon Jewish money and boomer money, they're only going to be relying upon Jewish money. I mean, and then what is their, what would be their message?

Is it just going to be all Israel all day long? Or is it going to be like some pet project, pet issue that, that jewish elites disagree on like borders or the economy or so i mean it just seems like sure right now we're at the point where it's uh you know it it seems like they have a lot of power and a lot of influence but i mean how does that basically the whole world and like more than half of this country sees them as like a genocidal state i mean they are yeah it's a bit and this is like you and this would sort of brings made around the company that I've, the particular, like you're talking about

heritage, the company that in particular is interesting to me and I just made a connection whenever I, because I've been trying to figure out why this company, why Salem? It's a company called Salem Media, okay, which like, you know, I've been talking about him in group chats for the last couple of days and you're like, Stephen Carson was like, who are they? And I'm like, oh, well, okay, there's this company called Salem Media which is it's actually publicly traded um you know it's a it's an actually publicly traded media company that owns really an umbrella brand and they have uh they essentially run it's almost like their nearest competitors like i heart radio like you know what they do is they own lots of lots

of small out with actually they own christianity dot com uh they had the charlie kirk show where they and they have the carly charlie kirk show or whatever you know the rump end of it uh is you know what but primarily what they're not is they're not fox news they're not tucker carlson what they actually specialize in are you know providing conservative leaning media you know like media property distribution to under to like smaller markets is mostly what they do so if you were glad i don't be like you have like seven or eight million seven or seven or six like seven million daily like daily reach or something like that but it's like in weird places and you were referring to it's like yeah okay so they're not going to have the executive branch what what do they have and like what

where is the strongest support for israel in the like where's the strongest support for israel in the contemporary legislature right now like what is the most like what is the most Zion the most Zionist like caucus of you know the American legislature right now I mean there there aren't neocons anymore that call themselves neocons but like a certain caucus no it's it doesn't seem like there's one caucus it seems like it's more spread out yeah it's more spread out but I'm specifically thinking of not particularly wealthy districts like you live in one probably. I live in one. Most of us live in one. Not particularly wealthy, not particularly populated, not particularly important legislative districts that are incredibly conservative.

And the people who live there aren't going to be plugged in to Nick Flintes. They're not going to be plugged into Tucker Carlson. Their daily media exposure is like, you know, kind of the way we, whenever we used to do TRS podcasts, we try to like sort of like replace the like three hour talk show format that Rush Limbaugh did. And so it's going to be, you know, places that they're not, I mean, I'm not looking down on them or anything, but their lifestyles are not plugged into the modern media scene. And so there are people who are getting their media sources via radio still or, you know,

relatively low effort markets where you can do this. You can pipe Mark Levin in, or you can pipe, you know, Ben Shapiro in, or and then also, like, the, on, and I, you know, I live in the South, and so I'm always, I'm always hyper-focused on Southern issues, like white conservative, white male conservative legislators are the most vocal supporters of Zionism in the world, you know, like, like, more so even possibly than some elements of, you know, of Israeli, because of the, you know, the Jewish capacity for self-critique. And, you know, it's largely through the rump end of like, I guess what you would call the, the, the, the, not the Rush One Ball. Who's the other one, the Georgia legislator? I can't remember his name. Newt Gingrich, the Newt Gingrich coalition, you know, movement conservatism. The Reagan conservatives or whatever, like that really strong evangelical background.

Those are the people, those voters, those are the last people in the world that you can sort of shore up, that you can use to shore up sort of, you know, Zionistic, like, tendencies. And so if you're concerned about support for Israel and the American legislature, this company, Salem is a wonderful company to go look at because they do provide that media service to these small markets. And if you're low and behold, you know, they just like they just had, you know, they had Charlie Kirk and there's just, there's just. an interesting thing about Charlie Kirk is that, as that, you know, behind the scenes, Charlie Kirk was a way more important. One of the reasons why we're seeing this, like, scatter, this scattering now is because Charlie Kirk was a way more important figure behind, even behind the scenes than people even realized. Of course, he had this huge, he was this, you know, campus conservative, he was this huge, like, public-facing media figure, but he was also

an incredible fundraiser, you know, behind the scenes. And so he was not, like, and essentially every like the blaze uh salem i think even fox all these because he's because he was with salem and his his contract was set to expire and there was behind the scenes there was this massive bidding war going on for who get who like who's going to claim charlie kirk when his contract was up and like then he gets killed and so that's like that was literally the only plan uh that was the only plan that was available. And in the wake of his death, everybody's had to go scramble to try and find these sort of replacements. And this is where the sort of Fuentes thing, this Fuentes and Tucker thing, starts to become really, really problematic because, I mean, again, like,

Salem is the company that I'm, like, I'm being really bitchy with them right now, because they're run by their new CEO is this man, Brad Parscale, who is, like, so, in, meshed with Israeli interests that he's been forced to register as an agent of the Israeli government. Okay. You know, he's like he got, you know, he signed a six, personally signed a six million dollar contract with the Israeli government to promote Zionist interests. And that flagged him as like, like obviously an agent of a foreign government to enough of an extent that the U.S. government said you have to register as an agent of Israel. Okay. And, you know, Charlie Kirk, like, will say what you will about the idea that he was backing away from Israel a little bit. And I think it says a lot

that he was. And I thought, I don't know how much truth there is to it. I didn't follow him that much. But it's certainly true that after Charlie Kirk, okay, who is the next, like you, you run into this like, so Charlie Kirk's dead, you run into this massive problem, which is that every conservative and every liberal, every, you know, pretty much every centrist also under the age of 40 is so unabashedly anti-Zionist and, you know, against American over, over extension with respect to our support for Israel, that you have a hard time bringing them in, you know, okay, and so you have this, now you suddenly have this issue where you have Israel, you have a lot of this Israeli money. There's certainly a lot of Israeli money. But, you know, if you're Salem media,

you've got this problem where okay you're you know if you're the blaze or somewhere like that who like runs this subscription model where the only thing you're doing is offering media so like the blaze and like you know like the blaze i love the blaze they publish me for instance that's like maybe maybe they're going after this podcast but like end of now they publish me sometimes and the um the thing that they do is that they have this they have this you know it's an entirely a subscription model. And so, and it's for media only is the thing that they do. And you have a hard time selling that. You have two problems is, first of all, you know, people under 40 are anti-Zionist, and they're also poor. And so they don't, and because of the circumstances, the way we grew up

in that sort of thing, we don't really see any point in paying subscriptions for packages that offers media only you know okay so if you're these media companies you have this issue where your subscriber base is going away uh as boomers dying boomers dying i mean like i was doing map on this a couple days ago like four 10 percent of 10 percent of the boomers that were alive four years ago are dead now and that you know that rate of boomer decay is increasing so the total number of boomer dollars that's available to keep your media operation going is declining rapidly and And then on the other hand, to make up that difference, you have to be increasingly willing to take money from, you know, very wealthy interests that can provide you with quite a bit of capital at once. And in the case of conservative media, that is, there's no way, there's no way to slice the pie up in a way that, you know, specifically pro-Israel money is not a huge chunk of that pie.

And so they have this issue where they're more or less beholden to these Israeli interests and they need to replace this figure Charlie Kirk now and they can't because there's no talent, you know, they have all the money in the world, but they, for now, but they don't have the talent. And so there's this sort of panic going on at this conservative NGO and conservative NGO and media company level where they need to produce pro-Israeli talent to spend this money on to bring in more money so they can continue their operation and there's nothing there and so the flentes the flentes and tucker carlson look really terrifying to them i'm sorry that was a lot of talk no i mean i get it it's uh that's one thing that people don't understand it immediately

after charlie died um you know two things happened well one thing didn't happen the You know, the White House, the regime in charge, the one that was elected to destroy the, you know, the 80-year-old regime, didn't take advantage of it at all. They didn't, they could have used that as an excuse to do so many things. They could have, they could have, they could have, I mean, would it have worked? Who the hell knows? But they didn't try to do anything. And then second of all, a bunch of people started. started what looked like auditioning to replace Charlie Kirk.

And what you found out very quickly is that no one can do that. And then you find out it comes out more of what he does behind the scenes. Like getting door knockers together, getting people to get, getting people to go out and register people to vote. I mean, he was, I mean, in the last election. he his organizing did a lot to get people out there. Yeah, I mean, he could be responsible for a 1.6 point as much as a 1.6 point slide. And the victory, the states that won that won the election for Donald Trump,

one of them like Wisconsin was the margin was 1.24%. So like arguably Charlie Kirk moved the needle on the election. at least in at least in Wisconsin you know you got to come with a way to replace that otherwise you're you know otherwise you're in trouble and it doesn't seem like there's anyone and yeah anyone who is stepping up to do it is they're immediately like you know i i mean i don't i don't know who this brylin holleyhan person is i don't he doesn't even seem human you've grown in a lab yeah yeah and it's just there's it doesn't seem like there's anyone it seems like um who's going to do that who's going to go campus to campus to rally the young people

and you know then you have to ask a question is then you have to ask a question well i mean at this point is it really necessary to go out there because you know, the way like someone like Burden, Jay Burton, who is Zumer, describes it is Zoomers are either far left or they're far right. Yeah. And if somebody's

far left, I don't know how you drag them over to the far right. Maybe you do. Well, I'll tell you to what's interesting with respect to Flentes is that some of my you know, I'm like I do the EGRO thing and do the EGROs on the left and I do the eagles on the right.

And some of the left-wing, like some of the left-wing e-girls that I know have been sending me Nick Fuentes clips. That was why I started watching him again. So Fuentes, you know, when I said, there's no talent. It's not true that there's no talent. It's not true that there's nobody in a position that they could go on, that they could take, that they could take some of this money from like Salem or they could take some of this money from the blaze. They could take some of these money from some of these very wealthy, Some of these very wealthy of media, political NGO interests on the right, they, the talent exists.

Jay Burton, for instance, is a person that could do that. You know, he's a very effective communicator. He's charismatic. He's not so far outside the age range of, like, sort of university students that he would, like, I mean, I'm too old to do it now. He's not too, you know, he's, he's a good candidate for, you know, establishing an NGO and like a sort of campus wars type, you know, like, uh, like presents, but there's an issue, which is that he's not going to do the Israel thing, you know, uh, and so like the, probably reason you get

down to figures like Brian Hollihan, why they appear out of the woodwork is because you have to go so far down the talent card. You have to like literally get into people, you have to like the available talent pipeline are these like you notice they all look the same they look the same they act the same they like they have the same clammy little handshake they all wear uh the same polyester suits they all came up in the same pipeline it would be like you know like boy state to like uh college republicans and then there's like you know there's that whole like oh like young u.n there's the whole like sort of janissary of the political class pipeline where, you know, everyone is optimized for essentially the same personality and to

get to the point we almost can't tell them apart. You have to go all the way down into that category of people to find somebody who both, you know, there's two categories that the people have to, they have to satisfy. On one hand, they have to be sufficiently, they have to be sufficiently pliable, because they have to be good at following instructions, good at reading the note cards. And then on the other hand, they have to potentially be charismatic enough to be able to carry, to be able to carry on this Kirk legacy and they have to work to be able to actually establish themselves as a viable media present. And all of the people that can sufficiently satisfy, that can definitely satisfy one side of that equation are explicitly not going to satisfy the arguably more

important which side of the equation which is staying on message and so what you're seeing now is they're having to go down into their like like you know like their double a team to find you know to find pitchers uh to go play the new york yankees is essentially what's happening and they're having to like almost totally abandon the the care the you know the side that would be say everybody's been doing media for you know uh for years and years and years everybody that has like media chops is pretty not willing to tow the line there. And so you have to go bank on the fact that you can astroturf these people who are not very charismatic, who will tow the line.

And that's the, you know, that's the, that's the conundrum they're facing right now. And it's not going well for them. Well, also, so say like a Salem media, their shows, the shows that are on there, any of these platforms, you know, daily wire, everything. If they're choosing, if the talent they're going to choose to bring in, like, you know, I'm kind of surprised at some of the more anti-Zionist, not, you know, anti-Israel or just, you know, lukewarm on Israel, people haven't been purged more from some of these organizations. But if they go looking to, like, stack their roster with, like, these pro-Zionist people, I mean, who's listening? Who's subscribing? Nobody is. Nobody is really. I mean, like, I know in Salem's case, some of the things, they're really going deep. And because there is this, like, whole, like, submerged media

network of, like, you know, trad mom, like, like evangelical trad mom, you know, podcasters that have, like, they have audiences of as big as 100,000, but they're not, like, on Twitter. They're not on, they're like they're in there they're in an entirely closed ecosystem and there's like an attempt to pull some of them out and you know they're bringing some older they'll let go bring some older figures off the you know off the bench like you know like somebody like Gavin mechanist or somebody like that you know they'll uh you know would probably go haul him off the bench and like and you know put him in somewhere uh but you're gonna you what are you going to have to see because they're trying to replace charlie kirk and you can't you can't replace charlie kirk with one person so

But you're going to try and do this with like a team or an overall, you know, an overall like spate. And then what they're actually going to probably try to do is just use volume, use like sheer number. They're just going to throw people at the wall. And whichever ones, you know, move the needle, even a single bit are going to be the ones that, you know, that sort of that get lots of money. But, you know, there's another side to this, to this strategy as well. And this is where Fuentes becomes important again. But like I was to stop me because I didn't want to interrupt you. And that's kind of a like kind of a separate topic.

No, why don't you run with that? I'll, I have something that I wanted to bring up, but I'll write it down. Why don't you run with that? Go ahead. Okay. So yeah, the thing with Flentes is that, again, he is pretty, you know, he's, he's got the, he's really not all the time explicitly anti-Jewish or anti-Jewish or, anti-Israel. He's pretty opportunistic. One of the things is one of the things to remember about

Nick Fuentes is that he spent quite a bit of time hanging out with Kanye West, who is of my, in my generation, the two most savvy celebrity manipulators of media are Kanye West and Taylor Swift. Okay. And so like anybody says like Fuentes has been hanging out with literally the master of media manipulation, like almost like the Donald Trump of the Gen X millennial, like sort of, you know, popular media scene, which is Kanye West. And so Fuentes is, you know, he's very good. And he's, and I've been watching him recently. He's, I've noticed his delivery is good. He's funny. You know, he says things at the right time. He presents a face of near perfect authenticity. and I don't deny that any of that shit is true about it either.

Okay. But one of the things that he is, one of the things about it is that he's not actually really all that politically focused. Like he makes some, he makes his money talking about politics, but he's not, he doesn't have a team. You know,

any, any moment there was to bring Nick Fuentes in on the team past years ago. He's been like every team, every team imaginable has spat in his face to such an extent that he just doesn't want to have anything do with it anymore. And in fact, it would hurt his brand at this state. So like Brad Parscale or somebody like that, somebody from Salem or the Blaze or even Fox could go to Nick Fuentes and bring him in for a meeting. And the only thing Nick Fuentes would be able to really do to save his brand is to record it and then make fun of it later that night. Because authenticity, the,

the fact that he does the fact that he doesn't have these these you know these strings attached to them is a major source of his popularity so when you haven't when you have an when you have a when you have a rogue agent careening through the media ecosystem remind you whenever you have a media ecosystem what you're talking about is a system with a total number of dollars that's fixed and or shrinking you know the amount of money in media is probably not getting not getting much bigger than it is right now the economy is going to burn it's going to get smaller um there's not a lot of new influxes of money that you can use to go you know go dig up other people and so one of the things you can do is if you have this uncommitted rogue agent which is what foente says and he's like you know

really, he's adopted this kind of anti-Trump, anti-Zionism stance. If I understand what he's been doing lately, he's been tying Donald Trump to the, you know, he's been going off about the Epstein stuff and like tying Trump to the state of Israel that way and saying, you know, isn't this creepy? This doesn't make sense. He's kind of right. I didn't credit for that. There's some, there's some janky stuff going on. But one of the things that's interesting is that if you're one of these other companies, if you're, say, Daily Wire or if you're Salem or if you're the blaze, one of the things you can do to combat, you're not combating Nick Fuentes directly, but you're combating the space. You're trying to siphon people out of the

space that Nick Fuentes is, you know, the biggest figure in. And one of the ways you could do this is to blow him up. Okay. And this is like one of these like like almost, almost 3D chess moves where, okay, so if we say, if we have a pretty fixed idea of what the market for what the total market, the total market value of anti-Zionist messaging is, we can blow Nick Fuentes up and get him to like something like 90% of that total market share, which is going to have the effect of like all of these other smaller, you know, all these other smaller figures that are also competing against Nick. Fuentes for money and eyeballs in the same market. Somebody like me, for instance, who's like, oh, they actually don't have a position on Israel to any, to any great extent, but like people that are in my cohort. I'm not going to name names because I don't want to get, I don't want to get it on anybody's bad side here.

But you could take, so then you have, if you have Nick Fuentes suddenly who's like, you know, Nick, but there's probably at 65% market share right now. If you can blow him up to 80% market share, then all. of a sudden these other guys who are making their money in media and they're competing in the same bowl of they're competing in the same pot of money as Nick Fuente says if Nick Fuente suddenly gets big their choices are to quit and go work at Panda Express or um or to start listening politely to maybe what some of these other people that have you know 30 shekels 30 silver secles and a nice script that all you have to do is read

it and wow, $7,000 a post on Twitter, you know, what you could do is you could blow Nick Fuentes up to the point where exiting the market that Nick Fuentes compete, that Nick Fuentes is monopolizing all of a sudden. So you can start to siphon talent and even audience out of that market share, out of that marketplace, by actually blowing Fuentes up bigger than he is now. And I think that's one of the things that we've started to see, you know, like, God, we were talking about this the other night, how there's, like, this sudden surge of, like, you know, people like Dave, the distributors, like, he posted a substack about it, you know, or posted tweeted about it. It's like, you know, the marching medieval, like, uh, nights. And it's

like, you know, like a old conny man ready to sit down and have the serious talk with, you know, like, like, Fuentes' supporters. And you've seen this up to. and like, you know, the fat old men from Iowa, from Idaho, what is that guy's name, Doug Wilson, you know, the Doug Wiltonites, the, the, the Blaze had somebody that did this recently. I know it was the Daily Wire that had somebody did this, is where we're going to sit down with the groipers

and have a man-to-man talk with them and explain to them why all of the things they believe are wrong and so on and so forth. So, I mean, the goal there is to, on one hand, blow Nick Fuentes up and then on and then on the other hand sneak around the back side with the talent that you have and like and point out Nick Fuentes's obvious shortcomings and use that as a persuasive pitch to move them out of the Fuentes space and into another space that you know might have pro Zionist interest or might have pro-conic interest or might have some

other set of interests that are amended to the kind of usually the way they attack is on the front of masculinity uh masculinity and uh appeal to women those are usually the front that they take so like this is a real man this is what a real man does and you know you if you try to you know and i'm not saying it works really well but i'm just saying that's kind of where they're at that seems to be the strategy that they're running now so that's why you see on one hand this like massive surge of interest in Fuentes in the mainstream media, and at the same time, like the Rod Dreher's and the Doug Wilson's are going to sneak around the back and, you know, find dudes hanging out in the back, the back third of the Fuentes crowd and be like, you know, hey, kid, you want to see

a dead bird, you know, like take that approach to them. And I think that's what's going on right now. Well, I think one of the interesting things that people don't realize is the fact that so in much the same way people refuse because they're so indoctrinated they've it's just what they've learned their whole life that this form of government that we have like the national government can be reformed like oh if i just get my people in charge and i used to think this way if i just get my people in charge it's like no it this it's an anachronism it doesn't work anymore much in the same way, the whole idea of like the podcast network, the creator network, that's dead. And Tucker and Nick have proven that.

Yeah. You just need one guy who gets up there, tells the truth, doesn't seem to be, to be hiding anything. I know that a lot of people are like, oh, Tucker just doesn't go far enough. Yeah, yeah, shut up. He goes exactly as far as he wants to go because he's Tucker Carlson and he doesn't have, he's not doesn't have to answer to anybody. It's like, yeah, you're getting like you're getting Tucker Carlson crazy fucking alien episodes

and like Conrad Flynn occultism and everything. You get all of that. That's that is Tucker Carlson, you know, like there's nobody forcing him to do any of this. Right. But, you know, what people really need to understand is that the whole idea of the podcast, you know, Podcast Network, the, oh, we have this many content creators who are making tons of money and, you know, we're paying tons of money and they're not getting anywhere near the views that, you know, combined that Tucker or Nick is getting. I mean, that's, that's just gone. It's dead. It's, it's, it's, it's yesterday's news and people are so used to it. You know, it's just one of those things that it's going to take time for it. It won't take, you know, this government will eventually. unravel, that's going to take a whole lot longer than, you know, I mean, look, I mean, the things that we saw just 10 years ago when Trump came in, you know, when Trump came

down the escalator and just the way the, the way the internet was used, the way Twitter was used, the way, I mean, things change. Yeah. Things just, they morph. Yeah. We live in a totally different world. that we live in it like you know last night i was like what like a crackheads murdered another crack heads right in front on me it's like three blocks from my house and i was thinking like

this my buddy dark enlightenment we used always talk about how like it's like yeah this is this country is going downhill fast you know and i was like thinking to myself i'm like yeah like i still see that pitch all the time it's like when the lights go out when this happens when things start to get really bad i'm like bro we're here things are really bad everywhere you know it's like oh that's that situation we were talking about 10 years you're in it now you're in it now You know, you best start believing in ghost stories. Same thing worked with the media situation, you know. Yeah, like the whole, like the idea of having like a spate of podcasters is pretty much gone.

You have like, you have one guy now. So like, you know, that whole that distributed like system, it's like congealed in a, essentially an authoritarian centralized system is what it is. It's just like, yeah, one guy is the guy. The talent is the talent. Yeah, and now people just have to figure out how to move. how to move that forward. How to use it. And, um, you know, because it's people aren't used to it. People, you know, you can imagine how many, you know, podcasters there are, quote unquote,

content creators are out there who are like, oh, I just wish I could get, you know, I wish I could get picked up by this podcast network over here. And, you know, the money will just start rolling in. And, you know, I'll have such a big audience. That audience is dying. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's like, It's like showing up and it's like Midwestern women flying to Hollywood to make it big. It's like, yeah, it's not, you're but to get eaten alive. You're not going anywhere. So it really seems like the people nowadays who are going to be able to have a voice that people want to hear, there are going to be people who are going to realize that the old way of doing things is,

gone and you're going to have to figure out a way to give people what that new you know what what will be the norm five or six years from now yeah and and I don't I don't know that I don't know that many people were you know because I don't even think Fuentes and Tucker realize what they have on their hands there I don't think many people know what that looks like right now I mean I think this is an instance where everybody, I guess 10 years ago, everybody was coming off the legacy media model where we're watching Fox News and everybody could pretty much see that was dead and everybody could pretty much see that we were going to move to this sort of like low budget decentralized podcasting networks and that sort of end that that was going to be the, that was the new form of asymmetrical information sort of dissemination. I don't think that there's much of a consensus around what comes next from where we are right now, one of these like sort of. of inflection points where nobody really knows what's coming next well if if you're right and whomever gets the nomination in 2028 you know and this is my bias showing I find this hard to believe

that you know at least one of them will be promoting Israel as our greatest ally and everything like that seems like if we get one that that doesn't well that would be that would be fantastic um what happens to these legacy think tanks and you know the the the heritages of the world and the um you know aeis of the world you know i mean i don't even really know i mean i they're gonna be flushed with israeli money with like with you know if they're really like seriously aligned with israel they'll still be flushed with israeli'sraeli money for a while but you know i'm like looking at, I'm looking right now at their employment numbers and their expenditures and, you know, you're looking at thousands of employees in Salem's case and you're looking at,

you know, they're, this doesn't look great. Their overhead for producing everything is large because, like, you know, we, like, we've essentially, I can sit down and stuff. I get sit down a substack. I wrote an article on the possibility of an American Shenzhen a few days ago because somebody tweeted something that made me mad. And Helen Andrews, you know, former American conservative editor, she followed me. And like Aaron Wren retweeted it and then a bunch of like really big conservative, you know, conservative media followed me. And I was like, I did that an hour. I sat down and wrote down an hour, you know. And like, I didn't cite it as well as I normally did. If I can sit down, and of course, I've been doing this for a long time,

but if I can sit down for an hour and write, you know, 3,000 word article or, you know, maybe it was two hours. If I could do, you know, two hours, three thousand words or whatever. This is what American Schengen would look like. And like large media figures find that compelling enough to at least follow me. my overhead there was a whatever whatever my $55 in internet is divided by however many you know like my overhead for that was like 30 cents or something like that and you're like out here producing these podcasts where like your your production costs per hour because of the you know

the massive number of employees that you have the the employment structure of all the people that have, you know, working versus like $150 an hour to produce this material and like, who's listening. It doesn't look good. So like, I mean, they'll, they'll be fine for a little bit, but I mean, these, they're going to start getting really desperate and they're going to, it's, they're going to run out of money. And as we do see that, I, you know, I have a pretty good idea of the financials behind some of these companies. And I'm not going to say, which ones, I have a pretty good idea of what the financials behind some of them look like and it's already bad.

It's not good. So we know, for instance, that the New York Times doesn't make money. We know that Washington Post doesn't make money. I mean, Washington, like, those are being bullied up by the fact that they have gigantic endowments, you know, Wall Street Journal, WAPO, New York Times, Atlantic. they have these massive endowments, which are essentially, so they're essentially hedge funds with a newsletter is what they are. And that's the ones that have successfully transitioned that way,

assuming the U.S. dollar doesn't collapse, they're going to be fine. But what do these, what do these, what are these companies that are actually dependent on subscription monies where they go? It doesn't look good. You know, it looks like they're probably gone. And I'm like maybe 10-year timeline. I think there's a possibility they could all be gone unless they, unless they come up with something else that they're offering to Gen X millennials and Gen Z that isn't just media consumption, you know. Yeah.

And I don't even know where the future of like think tanks goes. I mean like writing policy. It's like, okay, so you're writing policy papers. okay who's legislative there aren't even lawmakers anymore right no one makes law everything's done by by pen you know in the white house um and you know if they're if they're not doing policy and they're just like what do i mean what research well who are they researching for right it's it really seems like you know as tom like thomas seven seven seven says all the time it seems like the whole structure of everything we have

is to fight the Cold War. Yeah, that's exactly right. I call it this Cold War Sublime. We, like, for the last, you know, I break everything up into these. I'm familiar with the party system, the party system framework of American history. It's like the first party system, second party system,

third party system. I have eight in mine. And I have the, you know, the ones that have, in 1974 is the six party system. 2001 is the seventh party system and then we've been in the eighth party system since, God, oh, maybe I need to revise that. Maybe I need to break that, you spread that out.

But I mean, yeah, they're essentially, we are essentially a country that is configured. And I've been on my show, Library of Mass Destruction, Cap, and Capulisimo and I have been reading a lot of stuff about Watergate. And it strikes me the extent to which the American state, you know, the Beltway apparatus is still configured almost identical. to the way it was in, you know, in 19794. And it's changed so little, like, I mean, the actual things in government, the actual things that move government have changed, you know,

but the facade that we keep up, you know, the appearances that we keep up, are fundamentally from the 1970s still, and they're fundamentally from the Cold War, and the money is about to run out. out like you know the money the money is run out on that paradigm so i i don't know like all those places they look like they're not they're not in great shape to from where from my vantage point they don't look like they're in great shape and they don't have any idea they don't have any idea

right now what they could possibly do to improve their situation i have some ideas about what i would do but i'm not i'm not necessarily offering those out for free you know that's how that's how determined I am that everybody is fucked I like this is like me like normally I'll tell anybody anything I anything they want me to on a podcast and I'm like ooh that information is proprietary maybe I should maybe I should keep it for myself and my friends for now well yeah I mean that's the that's the thing is is that once you realize all of this is going away and it's just it it's all anachronistic you're once you figure out what comes next um you know if you if you do have friends and you're just you know posting on the internet thinking posting on x and thinking you know

every one of my tweets is uh changing the world well then you know you want to play that close to the vest but yeah you know we've been saying this for years meet your mutuals network with your mutuals if you're still posting on twitter like it's 2017 and you're like a like an in-cell sitting at or something like that if you haven't gone out of your way to like meet your mutuals like find people that you're personally compatible with that you're sort of like you know vocationally compatible with if you're not actually moving around in that network now i would say i would suggest that you catch up real fast uh you know and like if you're like running uh if you're running an organization that has like a media out that has a media apparatus or something like that

and you're like you're looking at the balance sheet is getting worse i will say this uh what you're going to have to do is speak to the needs of gen x of not even so much gen x here because i don't really understand you're gen x i don't understand gen x that all that well i don't understand how you all i'll i can explain it in very easily nihilism yeah exactly it's nihilist gen x nihilism millennials are not nihilistic we're not uh we're I wish we sometimes we maybe could have should have been a little more nihilistic. We're like, we're like the naive boomers in a lot of ways. We're narcissistic.

We believe in things. But speaking to the needs of zoomers and millennials, though, I would say like offering this media is not going to work. We don't even, Jim C doesn't even watch movies. You can get us to what, like I said this today on Twitter. I was like, you know, that's like if it's like, oh, Matt Walsh was like complaining about like the quality of takeout pizza of all things. I'm like sitting here like like really negative like 30 years after the total destruction of American culture. Like you like like looking at your pizza and being like,

I think my pepperoni combo has been shrink flated. But you know, like I said this. I was like, I think anybody, if you're in the business of shilling media, you need to find, you need to find good food at an afford. price and the food is what you're selling and then the media it comes with it I was like yeah we'll listen to you because it's somebody like for a seven dollar Cuban sandwich that's made well I'll sit there and listen to you recite your shitty confessional poetry that's how like that's how important I think the food situation is but you know when you're like speaking to like

millennials and Gen Z what is it that they're lacking and it's IRL stuff is what they need so you need to be able to figure out how to staple your media bullshit to an IRL experience. And I think the interplay between those two concepts and, you know, some of the more successful groups that are operating right now, I could probably name some, you know, I don't want to name any names. I mean, I was just out in LA for a passage press event, for two passage press events, for instance. They do really, they're actually doing a really good job of of offering iRL experiences with actual real people and then yeah you can buy a book too you know that sort of thing i think is like that's hinting at the direction things are going i don't think

anybody's taking it nearly far enough but yeah the the future belongs to those who can speak to the needs of millennials and gen z and the needs of millennials and gen z is that the needs of millennials and gen z is that they need cheap ways to get out of the house, cheap things to take their family to affordable entertainment, affordable foods, affordable, like they need friends. In Gen Z's case, and in Gen Z's case especially, they need co-ed spaces. Like everybody talks about the degradation of male spaces,

the degradation of women spaces, the degradation of co-ed spaces is much worse. Like they're just not, like Gen Z, men and women, just do not ever meet one another if you could figure out a way to get the panda generation to mate then you're you're a billionaire you know that's that's that's the that's the that's the million dollar that's that's the that's the million dollar uh prize the billion dollar prize the multi-billion dollar price if you figure how to get genzi out of the house and doing things holy shit you're going to be rich well you know you also you know what you're saying is get the hell off

get the hell offline. And the, you know, what I would say to the people who, you know, think, you know, oh, I'm posting on Twitter. I'm making a difference, you know, as an anon or whatever, is Israel is literally paying people $7,000 to post. $7,000 a post. Like, where's my money? I'm actually, but I'm just pointing out that I'm not saying.

But I think the point, the point I'm trying to make is, is that if, if, if, if, Israel is doing this and it doesn't work, then you're, this is a dead medium. I mean, this whole thing about posting online is going away. So what is next? And without a doubt, what is next is what you were talking about meeting your mutuals? Yeah. I wouldn't go so far as to say get offline because like at this point, I mean, I'm willing to say, I live in New Orleans, which is like the only people that move to New Orleans are the most explicitly committed pit bull mommy LGBTQ activist, you know, covered in tattoos people.

So like most of my friends are people, at this point in my life, most of my friends are people that I've met online. However, I have done, I have done considerably more than the average person in the last decade or so towards meeting my mutuals and so on and so forth. And so, like, I, I have met a lot of people online and they are that I consider to be really good friends of mine. This would not be the case, however, had I not gone out and met them. And I put like, like, Charlemagne or whatever. I met Charlemagne six years ago, you know, okay, we were in D.C. at the same time. And, you know, we're going to, like, like, all go into the same sort of event. And, you know, I was like, yeah, yeah, let's hang out, you know.

I'm probably most of the people that I speak to and see on a day-to-day week-to-week basis or people that I met online. But if you haven't done that, then you probably need to find it real fast. And like you're going to, and if you haven't done anything like that, you're going to need help. So you're going to need, you know, you're going to need to be shunted into a group. You're going to need, you're going to need to find these networks and get vetted by them and get, you know, get stuck in them and that sort of thing.

And yeah, that's, I mean, that is the future. So like, yeah, get offline, but I think still where we're at now, being online is a huge component of getting offline. Just because of the way, yeah, yeah. Also the way you can use, I mean, if you want to stay, if you're online, maybe you should be figuring out ways to use that to make money. Yeah. Or to, you know, but not by making $7,000 post. But, you know, whatever. you're doing that that time is spent it is better spent um doing something productive

than i mean i mean shit i mean shit posting is literally 2015 and 2016 yeah yeah what are you building are you like yeah you can be online but you need to be building something you need to be building something to be part of something that's being built or you know yeah you need everything needs to be done with considerable intentionality there's like not any real room for online nihilism at this point like that's you know as the great the the great nick land once said garbage time is running out you know all right you already mentioned that you um you know you have you have a project going with uh with capitalissimo tell everybody where they can find your work promote whatever you want Good Lord, that's getting the list of things that I do is getting kind of long.

Yeah, I'm on, of course, we could see my name down there on my little avatar. I write on Substack at Ecologic Americana. And wow, everybody has been, this has been a great year for me on Substack. I'm actually, like, people are, it surprises me that people are willing to pay to listen to my bullshit. And apparently something you all are. And like, no way that, but I, I've, I mostly do. do poetry now and people read it. You know, I'm like, what the hell?

That's incredible. So like I am on Ecologica Americana, this is my substack. I do a show with Capilissimo called Library of Mass Destruction where we really what we do is we do. The way Capitalizimo describes it is Sandbatch psychoanalyses himself and then there's an attached readalong where we do like parapolitical stuff.

We've done MK Ultra. We did we just did water Gate, Gulf of Tonkin. And we're between books right now. So we're going to go, we're going to go do, we're waiting on Capralicima to pick the book and then we're going to pick that up again. And then, you know, my writing is sporadic. It's all over the place, Spectre Poets, which is one of my, see, here's an example of the kind of, of the kind of way that you can use online interaction. So, like, this is something that happened to me. So I was out in L.A. recently, And I was at the Syswoon release thing, which was for the literary imprint, not a ritual, which is one of the imprints that Lomas has spun up under the passage umbrella.

And I was out there to meet one of my friends. And she was working the door. And so, like, whenever I got to the party or whatever, it's like, you know, I got to work the door, go inside, have fun or whatever. I walked in. And immediately, you know, I'm like, looking around, you know, because I'm a little room in. I'm like, whoa, you're in L.A. And, like, somebody screams, shandahyj at me across the room.

And I looked at her for a minute. And it was Erica Avi who publishes Spectre Poets. And, you know, we started talking or whatever. And she was like, I don't want to publish you. And I sent her some stuff. And she published it a couple of days ago on Spectropilits. So that's over there. And then the next day, she published Donna Krivalopova,

who's another good friend of mine that I met from online. And then, of course, today she's actually, started up quite a stink because she published some of Yarven's poetry. And of course, Yarven is another guy that I've met from like online. So that's the way, you know, just like you could use the internet to get into these spaces where, you know, you know, you meet people in real life. And so that's what I've been doing. And then I've got, God, I've got two books that are coming out. I'm trying to get both of them out before the end of the year. And then attached to that, I have another project that I'm about to get spun up. And then, of course,

you can always find you can usually find me around the OGC nebulae because that's the group that I like to do the most with because I think they're the best so that's that's the shills I appreciate it let's do it again real soon so the next time yeah oh yeah thanks ma'am I'm a new ASE, ... ...

... ... ... ... ... ...