The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1304: The Death of Liberalism and What Comes Next w/ J. Burden

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

71 MinutesSome Strong LanguageJ. Burden is a content creator and the host of The J. Burden Show on YouTube and all podcatchers. J. joins Pete to talk about the liberalism's death with an analysis of what comes next.Meditations on the Master’s House: Leaving the PlantationJ's SubstackJ's PatreonJ's YouTube ChannelJ's Find My Frens PagePete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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And I just want to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can put out the amount of material that I do. I can do what I'm doing with Dr. Johnson on 200 years together and everything else. The things that Thomas and I are doing together on Continental Philosophy, it's all because of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank you enough. So, um, thank you. The Pekignano Show.com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekignano show. Jay Burden's back. Jay, how are you doing? Doing well, Pete. Thanks for having me back on. Always enjoy it. Of course. I do as well. All right. So I think when I reached out to you, I said that I had

just been listening to our friend Charles Haywood. He was doing one of his book reviews, and it was a book about how, not that liberalism is dying, but that liberalism is dead. And I thought we could talk about that. We could talk about conservatism. But, you know, one of the things that Mr. Haywood said was that the book did not address what comes next. And I thought we could finish up talking about that. But when are you the same as me? When someone said, oh, it says liberalism is dying, you think, oh, that's not true. It's already dead.

It just doesn't know it. The people who still adhere to it don't know it. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you look at it, right, who are the liberals? And when we say liberal understand, you know, dear listener, we're not talking about, you know, the 2007 style liberal Democrats. you know, Nancy Pelosi and others. We're talking about people who believe in classical liberalism.

Effectively, those beliefs are reserved for society's greatest losers. The conservative movement, the kind of smoldering remains of the IDW, people who do not matter. That is where you will find this kind of reverent references to liberalism, you know, those thinkers. Now, that doesn't mean, right, that now that we've, you know, that liberalism is dead, that we're done with the left. Those are two different things. But if you look at the current left, the exciting left where eyes are going, these are profoundly illiberal politicians. The conversation around Zohan Mahmdani, it's a Star Wars name, I'm sorry I can't say it, is largely brain dead. But very fundamentally, he is not a liberal.

Sure, there's a gap between what he says he will do and what he has already done. But if you look at what he's saying, he's basically a combination between a kind of Bernie socialist and a smash-and-grab third-worlder, right? More taxes for white landowners, more benefits for new arrivals, right? People fresh off the boat, as it were. Similarly, if you look at the kind of under-30 crowd, there was a really interesting interview a while back with Mark, whatever his last name is, the guy who runs Resumucin, who's talking about the divide on the right between the 30 plus and 30 under, or the under 30s,

on any number of issues. And basically what he found is that nominal Republican voters under 30 are extremely radical. For instance, on bombing drug boats. Look, you and I are probably on the same page that the defense industry is not exactly telling us what's going on with Venezuela. But nonetheless, as presented, the idea of, you know, blowing smugglers out of the water is, you know, a grave affront to, one, you know, liberal aversion to collective punishment, the idea that everyone deserves a trial. Also, you know, the rules-based international order, you know, one of the kind of crown jewels of international liberalism.

And basically, people are saying, yeah, I don't care. They got fentanyl on the boats. We got bigger guns. blowing up pirates is pretty much all states have ever done. I mean, go back to Caesar or even our own, you know, war with the Barbary pirates. And people are saying, well, I don't care. And that attitude of, well, I don't care is sort of common to both the left and the right. No one believes these platitudes about liberalism anymore, except for the designated losers, the people we've already mentioned.

And look, I don't want to come across as overly jubilant about that. It would be very nice to live in a society where politics was more limited, where it was understood that certain things were beyond the pale, but quite fundamentally, we do not live in that world and we haven't for a while. The right, you know, the woke right, as we've been punitively termed, are really not innovators. We are waking up to a realization that the left made generations ago, that the system has no enforcement mechanism. You need power to enforce liberalism. and if that liberalism is unwilling to enforce itself, well, there are all these different exploits built into the system. And at a certain point, if you're playing a game that's been broken, if you're still playing, you know, the kind of official rules book version of,

shall we say, boxing or basketball, and you're in a prison yard, you're not going to have a good time of it. So even then, right, this realization is well and truly done. And the problem is, look, backtrack a little bit. The idea of secularism is fundamentally a lie. Every political project is religious. And this liberal system was ultimately a civic religion. It held certain things to be sacred. But the problem is, you know, once you have walked into the holies of holies and you were not struck down or struck down, once you have gone into, you know, the glade dedicated to Odin and chucked a spear at the idol and you're still there well the magic's gone right you've broken that sort of sacred aura around a religion around the system and to your point pete i mean really

this system was broken in the 60s it just took people a while to realize and especially that attitude of well i simply don't care i would expect that to accelerate as material conditions decline. Look, you know, it's easy to kind of, you know, mouth along these sort of platitudes when everything's going well. When you don't really have to think about politics all that much, it seems very distant because you're getting richer. Fair enough, the job market might not be great, but your portfolio is going up. You're richer than your parents. So what does it matter? But in a situation where things are demonstrably getting worse, look, everyone knows the economic stuff, but even on a social level. Current estimations are that less than half

of Gen Z adults, which includes people up to the age of about 29, have ever had sex. Now, look, man, you and I are, shall we say, quite to the right of the average person. We understand that, you know, just constant, shall we, serial monogamy is what the sociologists would call it. But, you know, dating, you know, having a large number of sexual partners is not necessarily a great thing in society, but is a general indicator of how many people are interacting with the opposite sex. Well, we reach less than half. That's not a good sign, let alone, you know, the apocalyptic number of people who are buying a home, average first time home buyer, I think is 40 now. And you have a large number of people who really aren't

getting a lot from the current existing order. They are able to do things that humans have done throughout time, which is pair bond, pass on their genes. They don't have a stake in society, a literal ownership piece of culture that they own that ties them to the existing order. And so you have this immense knot of people on both the left and the right who basically say, I don't care, just change something. I think that incorrectly conservatives, particularly the Maga types, assumed that Trump's victory in 2024 was a shift to the Republicans. It was not. It was a rejection of the status quo, a rejection of Joe Biden for all of the reasons anyone would want to reject Joe Biden. And what we have seen over the last fairly disastrous

year is that those people were more interested in that project fixing whatever the big issue is than they ever were with the Republican Party. Look at, again, the swing to Mumdani. Now, obviously, there's a world of difference between the sort of young people who voted for Mumdani or even the young people that exist in New York and on a national level, we understand that, but nonetheless, there is widespread unhappiness. Going back to this article I mentioned with the guy from Resmussen, and I realized that not being able to cite your sources is incredibly poor form, Pete, but I'll drop you a link after this recording, and so you can actually include it in the show notes so people can check it out. But one of the other things that he talks about when examining the under 30 crowds, it's Mark Mitchell. Mark Mitchell, thank you. Professional podcaster, ladies and gentlemen. But you look at what Mark Mitchell says. In addition to the kind of disregard for the rules-based international order, which, let's be honest, is always a fiction, but nonetheless, it does hold weight in certain circles, is also being very comfortable with drastic things. For instance, jailing judges, Judge Jim Boasburg, no points for guessing where his parents are from, saying that that guy should go to jail.

For what? We'll figure it out later. But one of the most interesting ones, one that really stuck out to me, was the large number of people, a plurality of under 30 voters, who were okay with an AI dictatorship. Now look, I'm not a big fan of an AI dictatorship, and let's take the AI out of it, but basically okay with top-down centralized control. The idea of, let's throw this whole system out and have someone who decides something. decide something. Look, we're not populists here. We understand that broadly speaking, you know, public perception does not influence politics. But nonetheless, this is a seismic sea change. These people have by and large completely rejected liberalism. So to answer your question of, well, what comes next? Every click, every connection, every moment your business is

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pick up some great value essentials along with some high quality meats and fresh fruit and veg plus some tasty treats from our in-house bakery serving you up freshly baked goodness Tesco every little helps every click every connection every moment your business is online a threat is evolving With Nostra as your trusted technology partner, you're not just reacting. You're ready, turning concern into confidence. From cybersecurity that protects what matters most to cloud solutions that scale as you grow and AI that transforms how you work.

Nostra delivers secure, innovative, and reliable IT for Ireland's leading businesses. Visit Nostra.i.e to find out more. Nostra, securing today, shaping tomorrow. Obviously, we don't know. You shouldn't bet on any one. thing that I am, you know, going to predict here. But there are a couple things that I think are pretty much already done. One is a pivot to just pure tribal politics, right? Discarding any sort of niceties around, you know, race or culture. I think a particularly iconic moment for this

is current kind of protests around immigration law. You have in Los Angeles earlier this year, protesters waving the Mexican flag and screeching about La Raza, the rates. Clearly, those people view themselves as a racial identity group. This has happened in other places, American blacks, for one example, for a long time. But it's becoming more and more naked. The necessity to kind of dress it up and church it up in liberal language is really falling to the wayside. I'll reference Mundani as well. Now, as in all things, the right is a lot.

later adopter of this. But like him or hate him, the relative mainstreaming of one Nicholas J. Fuentes has shown that that is no longer a third rail. It is no longer something that can be completely and totally excluded from discourse, despite the firm desire of the American conservative movement, who is by and large completely and totally useless. I think that that is fast approaching. I would also cite the recent spat of working class white women dropping the word of power in interactions with, you know, diverse Americans. It's a lagging indicator that there is no longer that same sort of sacred aura we mentioned earlier about the ultimate sacrament, right, the holy group, which must be protected at all costs. The ultimate, you know,

anathema saying that word is still, you know, it'll get you in trouble. Don't walk into your, you know, don't walk into your corporate office with Burger King crown on. But clearly, it no longer has the same kind of sacred significance it once did, especially as white Americans become a minority, which in all likelihood will occur, you're going to lose that sort of prudish attitude. Look at the boomers, right? They are perhaps the ones most inculcated in the cult of Martin Luther King. On the left, certainly, no one cares about him anymore. No one believes in these sort of bromides about the content of their character. No one really even on the conservative, you know, side of the argument believes that he was a Republican

or he was some sort of, you know, social conservative. Really, that idea only exists as kind of a relic, you know, something of a previous era. So that's one. I think that, you know, the landscape around identity politics will change. To that point, again, look at who says that phrase in a negative context, identity politics. It's losers, right? These are not people who are in a serious position. I think another one that is going to happen is I think that we are in the preparation for an attempted right-wing perch.

You don't have to be a genius to figure this out. Just look at the massive chimp out over the last, let's be honest, six months longer than that over first Tucker Carlson, then Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, our friend Darrell Cooper. all of these incidents were used to, or at least attempt to, you know, gin up a perch, right? What we did in the 80s, what we did in the 90s, what they did in the 80s, did in the 90s. And that didn't work. So I think that that cat is well and truly out of the back. On another level, I think that a lot of the economic libertarianism is going to become a non-starter. The boomers hold a massive amount of property.

they hold a massive amount of wealth. Each generation after that subsequently owns less and so has less and less of a stake in libertarian economics. It just is not a live issue anymore. You'll notice this talking to Gen Xers and boomers. For instance, around Sohran Mondani. The fact that he is a socialist to them is completely and totally beyond the pale. That's the same thing as admitting that you're a Satanist, that you, you know, dress up as a dog and, you know, want to have sex with men in truck stops. It should be totally, you know, beyond the pale. But it's not because for people under a certain age, that no longer holds any sort of, you know, special weight to it. It is simply, well, I want to not be poor. And look, we all understand that socialism is a bad way to go

about that, especially in the Zohan Mamdani sense. But nonetheless, that, that ideological commitment to capitalism, that ideological commitment to liberalism has gone away. And so I think libertarian economics are going to become less and less of a feature in politics. I mean, look at the MAGA movement itself. Trump from the very beginning has marketed himself as a protectionist. It shot him to, as of yet, unheard of electoral successes for the post-Cold War conservative movement. That issue is well and truly dead. I think as far as others, And this is perhaps more difficult to speculate. But I think that within our lifetime, and look,

an immense amount of progress has already been made, Israel is going to become effectively a pariah among the American public. We're already seeing this happen. And again, we understand that public opinion does not yield political results. But effectively, what we're seeing now is politicians like Ted Cruz are being roundly mocked by their own voter base, by the people who, one would expect, would vote for conservatives. This kind of slavish deference to Israel is becoming more and more of a negative. Now, look, where do these people get their money from?

Will they give that up? Likely, no. But additionally, it's also important to remember that as America Browns, as it changes, the blood libel, the historical guilt narrative, you know, kind of placed on the heads of white Americans becomes less and less effective. Because to be quite honest, what does a guy from El Salvador care? He doesn't. So I think that that kind of social dissolution will affect that issue as well. One last point, if I can, I think that what we're seeing, and you can look at the writings of Josh Neal as well as others, is a complete and total fracturing of any sort of cohesive American culture,

American narrative. Amongst my generation, Gen Z, there is no mass culture. There are thousands and thousands of algorithmically driven subcultures. And so really, no one has a cohesive narrative on anything. And so I think as well, and we're already seeing this with figures like Candace Owens as well as others, Ian Carroll, is that there's this sort of populist conspiracy culture, you know, which is not really directed in anyone, in anyone, you know, particular vein. It is simply broad distrust of any official narrative, any elite group whatsoever. Really, I think that is the fault of, you know, the liberal establishment.

I think that is the fault of the expert class. They have allowed their expertise to wane. But I think that's a major problem as well, that, you know, as the internet completely fractures any sense of culture, it will become very different. to even say, what does XYZ demographic think? Because all of those traditional social groups, which defined people, are being replaced with decentralized, sort of algorithmic tribes. So I think we're also going to see, and we already are, this rise of this kind of mass conspiracy culture. So I've thrown a lot out at you, Pete. I'll let you respond after my diatribe.

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businesses. Visit Nostra.I.E to find out more. Nostra. Securing today, shaping tomorrow. At Tesco, we're delighted to announce our brand new Belmain Express store is now open. Where the quality you've come to expect from us is now just down the road. Pick up some great value essentials, along with some high-quality meats and fresh fruit and veils. edge, plus some tasty treats from our in-house bakery, serving you up freshly baked goodness. Tesco, every little helps. Okay, let me go back to the beginning, talking about liberalism. You mentioned the rejection of Joe Biden and, you know, mostly Kamala Harris,

Kamala Harris, too. a lot of people may say, oh, that's, that was, you know, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are liberals. That was a rejection of liberalism. No, no, the rejection of liberalism, I'll go so far as to say the rejection of conservatism. And I'll go even further to say the rejection of how the United States has been operating for 80 years was in 2016 when Trump was first elected. Now, we like to say Trump, Trump the man doesn't really, you know, we don't know if it means anything, but his election, the fact that he would get elected means that to me, that liberalism, conservatism, that the way things have been running have been rejected.

And what you saw with them jumping back in and, you know, whatever happened with the election in 2020, don't believe Time Magazine, don't think, believe a word Time Magazine says, apparently. That was like a last gasp to try to force back in the Nuremberg regime, the New Deal regime. And they just, they went so far and it was so obvious that the president wasn't running the country that not only are people rejecting liberalism, not only are people rejecting conservatism, and not only are people rejecting the way things have been done for 100 years now, but they're also basically rejecting what they're being told. I've said this recently that, you know, you talked about Israel and the whole thing around that and how much, you know, less than 50% of the population is now, is now anti-Israel.

when it comes to the Zuma generation, that number goes much lower, or that number that is pro-Israel is much lower. And, you know, I've said that, you know, really, the only way they could possibly get it back is like this huge massive false flag. But then when you look at the way things are done now, most people will be like, no, that was a false flag. That's bull crap. So it's also a rejection of the reality that we've been sold to the point where people don't know what reality is and they're willing to listen to someone like Candice Owens talk about like Egyptians flying around in planes on the day that Charlie Kirk had shot.

Yeah, it's a really, it's a valid point. And I think it's important to bring up the degree to which, and you mentioned, earlier, that you know, we really do live in the decaying remains of FDR's world, the Nuremberg regime. And there's certainly a very real ideological component to that, the anti-fascism of the American Empire. But we also have to understand that it is fundamentally a managerial regime. FDR is sort of infamous for his brain to rust, right? The idea of collecting a bunch of experts together, putting them into some three-letter government department. and then they become the kings of agriculture or, you know, the kings of the environment.

And this administrative state to, you know, sort of borrow a word from our in here, has grown massively. But that depended on trust in the experts. And COVID, the pandemic, which you could really look at as kind of the last gasp of that system, was a desire to bank on the one area of expertise that most Americans still believe. in the medical establishment or science and while surely there are still you know lunatics wearing masks in the year of our lord 2025 that's a distinct minority and even if someone hasn't gone down the same rabbit holes that you or i have pete the general consensus was and

speak to people about this quite often well that was a giant waste of time even if they don't necessarily have the correct opinions on you know where a virus would have come from or anything else. Nonetheless, a crazy amount of social capital was spent, both with the pandemic itself, also in the 2020 election, using the language of the experts have decreed. This is simply the official narrative. And people have reacted by rejecting that,

not at all in any cohesive direction. In millions of different directions, most of them very, very stupid. So, okay, not ideal. But again, we have to understand that that social element has been massively weakened. Again, right, if we look at the, you know, the cases of these two women, the Cineban worker and then, you know, Shial Hendricks using that word, it's important to remember that those people have been made, relatively speaking, quite wealthy. They've gotten a lot of money for it. And, well, why is that?

Well, sure, it's because people feel bad for them. They see they were in a bad position. they want to help out. But also, every dollar given to them is a rejection of the regime, a rejection of expertise and also a rejection of a previous order, where it was understood that identity politics, that arguing for your guys, regardless of what happened specifically, is just not something done by the maturity population. That's for them. You know, Al Sharpton can do that, but we would never dare. And again, that was received. wisdom handed down by the experts, by the education system, by effectively every American institution.

And again, I don't want to overstate the case here. There are still, you know, a vast number of people for whom that word, that phrase is a deal breaker. It's just a circuit breaker ideologically. It flips and they're done. But we're talking in relative terms here. The amount of people who feel that that is no longer disqualifying to you having any sort of life whatsoever. Well, there's a lot more people who say, yeah, I don't care. Whatever. It's fine. She doesn't deserve to have her life ruined.

And that's a huge problem. That's a major problem for the regime. Because again, if we look at Machiavelli, right, the classic distinction between foxes and lions, you know, the sort of sneaky manipulative leader versus the man of action who sits at the top and say, you know, do what I say or else. Well, our elites are all foxes. Look at the nudge units in the UK. look at effectively the whole Obama regime, where that book, Nudge, right, became so popular as a way to influence public opinion, is that really they're not particularly comfortable with force, making people do something. They want to engineer public opinion. Those circuits are

still there. You know, there still is, you know, the blue and on voters. They've been able to engineer this sort of campaign of stochastic terrorism by activating sleeper cells of, you deeply, mentally unwell, sexual degenerates, that still is there. That still exists. But if we're looking at trend lines, theirs is going down. That ability is decreasing. I think that, again, if we're talking about predictions for the future, things are likely to get pretty nasty as far as political violence is concerned. A while back on a show with Carl Dahl, I read a piece from wired, the hard left shooters leading a gun culture revolution, which is basically about autistic men who are both really into customizing weapons and also into customizing their own bodies and

dressing up in skirts, odd people. And the content of it is really not that great. He went to some shooting competition where there was a, you know, a fire accidentally started, got closed down, so he didn't even actually do anything. But he talked to a number of these activists, of the John Brown Gun Club, Carl Casada, who sort of internet old heads will remember, has been a laughing stock for decades now, but interviewed him as well as a few other people. And what's really striking about the article is the framing of the whole thing, the framing that conservatives, fascists, right, the designated Satan of the state cult, are out to get minorities, out to get particularly, you know, sexual minorities. And so those people,

people are justified in preparing for violence. They should be arming themselves to protect themselves from the Gestapo. They should be preparing for, and this is a phrase that appeared in that article multiple times, a new years of lead, anticipating a return of political violence, not seen since post-war Italy, when any number of hundreds of people were murdered in tit-for-tat violence. I think that there's a very real chance that in several years we will look back on 2025 and say, well, that's where it started. Obviously, the assassination of Kirk, the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, a number of kind of failed terrorist attacks on ice facilities and, you know, DHS personnel. And I think that is another trend that shows no sign of abating. I don't want to get two tinfoil hat here, but one of the other narratives,

that's being floated, you've seen this on billboards and major urban areas. You've seen this from the, you know, the dramatically named Seditious Six is this threat of political reprisal. For instance, Reprimala Jayapal, I think that's how you say her name. Again, other Star Wars name out of Washington, a Democrat, if you believe it. She made this explicit speaking to the House of Representatives. she basically said, and remember, if you violate the law, we're going to get you. A paraphrase, but pretty close to what she said.

Mark Kelly and others have intimated the same thing, all the way up to the point of saying or advising for U.S. servicemen to disregard their orders. Remember, if you violate the law, if you violate the Constitution, we can get you, sort of laying the groundwork for seemingly a coup. now it might not happen of course but that's worrisome right the fact that they're at least floating that kind of language around a sort of military resistance to you know donald trump who admittedly is you know i'm no fan of as we've said before but still that is an inclination that political violence seems in the offing again i don't support that i don't want that to

happen and i think that a well-run society would not tolerate it but yet here we are i think that's another sort of very tepid prediction I can make. This Christmas on Sky, you can turn a silent night into stoppage time to lice. And lots of that! An old mince pie

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Begin your next chapter at SME Nextchapter.com. A confidential conversation you can trust. Let's go back to, you had mentioned Gen Z earlier. And you've, we've done an episode on Gen Z just concentrating on Gen Z before. And you've said that it seems, I mean, I don't know that you've said this officially, but definitely like privately you've said it seems like Gen Z is either far right or far left like there's no middle ground um i used ruder words but yeah yeah yeah yeah if uh if if if they're basically far right or far left that is a clear sign that they've rejected everything they've rejected

what they've been sold liberalism conservatism progressivism whatever it is and they're sort of without even maybe knowing it maybe not from maybe not from reading books but maybe from listening to podcasts or maybe by just being in the zeit guys that they're existing in they're accepting they're looking at the back and they're going okay so we live in a time where we you know what we believe if we believe something we could be attacked over it, we could lose job over it. I'm never going to be able to own a house. I'm never going to be able to this.

All of this kind of economic horror is being showered down upon us. So what historically is there that we can use that to fight with? And it seems like one group is saying, well, we're going to run all the way to the far left. And the other one is saying we're going to run all the way to the far left. And the other one is saying we're going to run all the way to the far. right. I guess depending upon their, I mean, metaphysical, definitely, like, something about them metaphysically and biologically, genetically also, I believe that, I believe that's passed down. But it seems like if they're going either far left or far right, there is, by the time

they come to power, to have power, which is going to happen at some time or another, whether the money is there or not. You know, it's like, you need, in order to become political, you have to be supported by money. And there's another reason why conservatism is dead and liberalism is dead. If Gen Z is either far left or far right and the boomers who are classical, liberal, whatever, conservatives, whatever they are. And then you have the progressives that aren't willing to go as far left as some people

are willing to go and have historically. It seems like if they come, if they get to a point where there is no hope, well, we're going to see history repeat itself because the only thing that they're going to have is action. if you without fed posting well and this is this is a big problem really the republican party Donald Trump in particular have to borrow a phrase from the youth fumbled the bag here because look you know a large part of the reason that people were dissatisfied with Joe Biden other than the obvious was that everything kind of sucked the economy wasn't working great everyone felt it just uneasy and unsecure. And so to be in power for a year now and to repeatedly say, you know,

the economy is better than it's ever been. Trump recently rated his economic performance as a plus plus plus plus plus, despite, you know, despite additionally remarking that affordability is a quote, Democrat hoax, not once but twice. You have a number of people who are saying, well, what are my options here? Like, I want to get. to start i want to contribute i want to index with society do the things that my parents and grandparents did get a decent job support yourself you know meet a woman and own property and when you have very cleanly first left then right been shown that well there is no option for me within the system there is no solution well people are going to look elsewhere particularly if they have nothing

holding them back. If you've got a wife, you're like, I don't want to do that. It'd probably be hard for her if I go to jail. If you have a house, you're like, well, not there to make the house payment. If I lose my job, that's kind of tough. Whereas if you have a group of people who quite literally have nothing to lose, historically, this is what revolutions were made of. You'll remember there were a number of kind of, ironically enough, kind of morally high-handed essays that came out during the global war on terror, particularly the late parts, talking about how bad Islamic societies are. Yeah, Islamic societies, because of polygamy and all of these other issues, have this mass class of, effectively, loser virgin young men who can't get a wife, can't get

started because those resources are being held by a small population of hyper-successful men on a genetic level, right, these kind of patriarchs. And so that's what we're what creates jihadis, people who have nothing else to do, basically biological cruise missiles. And okay, maybe the moral cant was a little bit much, but that argument holds up, right? That does not a successful, happy society make. Like, I don't have the same, you know, punitive view of Islam that some of our more Zionist compatriots do. But nonetheless, I don't really want to live in Afghanistan, to be really honest. It doesn't sound that fun. And I don't want Afghanistan to come, I don't have one Afghanistan to come here.

I don't have a particularly poor, I don't have the poor opinion of Islam that a lot of people do, even people on our side, but that doesn't mean that I want them here. I just want that, yeah, I want them to live their lives where they are and thrive. And so if we're looking at that, accurately identifying that mistake, and then not 10 years later running the same playbook, you're like, oh, wow, that really messed up your society. What if I try it? It's like, well, what do you think is going to happen? Okay, maybe we don't have the sort of in-cell Taliban, you know, running around, you know, blowing people up in car bombs. But you think that's going to lead to a stable society where you, hypothetical boomer conservative, can have a pleasant retirement? Like, you really don't think that there will be negative external. to doing this. And I think that you see this on both the political right and the political left. I mentioned this sort of Trantifa sleeper cell network, you know, like the guy who shot Kirk, the guy who, you know, took a shot at Trump, these sort of, again, but for their political ideologies, the kind of stereotype of, you know, the right wing an on, obviously not

based in reality in that case, but the, you know, the shut in loser who's got nothing going on, who just wants to strike out at the system. And there really is a sort of horseshoe theory there, right? You can look at the, I can't remember. I think it was the Dallas Fort Worth shooter, right? He killed, you know, 30 people, I believe, because of the, you know, great replacement. And then you look at the guy who shot Kirk because of the rising tide of fascism. You dig down and like really neither one of those guys is particularly ideological.

You know, the Dallas Fort Worth shooter has a manifesto, but kind of all, over the place. You know, you can tell he, he read a few books, you know, absorb some 4chan memes. And then most of it is just him talking about how generally angry he is. Similarly, we don't know as much about the Kirk shooter, but, you know, by every available information, yeah, sure, he was into some weird sex stuff, but wasn't all that political until relatively recently. He's just a loser that didn't have much going on. And look, there's a certain amount of that that happens in any society. We understand that the male of our species has high variability you know more geniuses and more idiots so there's a certain amount of that

that will happen but to sort of lean into that to deliberately create people who in another society would be successful would be helpful would be building something and push them to the margins I mean dude that's a that's a huge problem I think another interesting development and we've been seeing this for a while is that globalism has really come home so previously the crimes of globalism, you know, destroying the American working class, destroying the rust belt were sort of hidden by the fact that those people weren't particularly wealthy. They weren't, you know, the culture-bearing class, as it were. It was, you know, working people.

And if you are, as our dearly departed friend, Zeman said, one of the cloud people, right, who descends onto earth, that doesn't affect you. You don't really like the chuds. But all of a sudden, globalism is coming home. And it turns out that you can pay a guy from India who says he has a degree to do a lot of these sort of laptop jobs. And so I think that it would be interesting to see which wins out, the immediate economic interest of not wishing to be replaced in your job, or the kind of social patronage network where people are paid off not directly, but by feeling better than their parents, by being seen as morally superior.

year. I don't know which one will break first. That sort of social conditioning is very, very deeply wired. And we talk about the Nuremberg regime. A big part of that is social engineering. Particularly, I think, and I've been talking to our mutual friend Stormy Waters about this, the kind of hypothetical kind of, you know, laptop American woman, right? Someone who makes, you know, 100, 120 a year at, you know, some sort of, you know, to be honest, completely pointless laptop job one guess what by the raw economic calculation you're working class now you're not middle class anymore and you are also okay sure there's you know some purchasing power some there's a hell of a lot of threat to your purchasing power you know your actual economic standing

setting aside the cost of living which in many of these areas is extortionate but also now you are right for replacement right you your job can be done by Vivek. It can be done by, you know, a guy from somewhere else. And that's sort of a question mark for me, because I genuinely don't know which will break first. You know, when it comes to issues of security, it certainly has not gotten bad enough to produce some sort of meaningful change there. You know, the meme of, you know, the progressive woman being accosted on the subway, you're writing an angry post about men writ large and then voting for Zohan Mandani, that is accurate. But I wonder if we will see a political realignment in the same way

we saw a political alignment among, you know, the American white working class, who were historically Democrat since, you know, basically the, you know, Great Depression. And yet, as they were sort of cast aside, a new political, I guess you could say a new political coalition was formed. I don't know on that front. That's sort of an open question for me, but I think if we were looking for an area to make headway. And look, you've been to the same political conferences I have. There's a whole lot more people with laptop jobs there than there

used to be. I wonder if that is a possible area of expansion for the true, or as you've said, the serious right. Ice skating.com.I.E. has Christmas in mind. Dublin's most loved ice skating, the finest you'll find. Blanchardstown and Dunleary

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Yeah, I mean, I think what it leads to is what I've been saying, you know, for a while now is the, reaction to what seems like totalitarianism and an attack on who you are, an attack on your being, the social engineering you talked about, once people realize that, then the reaction is going to be right-wing or left-wing authority. authoritarianism from a historic standpoint. It's not going to look exactly like it is because, I mean, this is the United States. It could be fragmented. It could be certain parts turn out that certain parts embrace it really hard or other places just completely reject it. But if you,

if you understand that the answer, historically the answer to what we've been dealing with for the last 80 years. And even on a small scale, you know, you can just look at the, the interwar periods of how countries reacted to what was becoming the spirit of the age at that point, then it's going to go hard one way or it's going to go hard the other. And at that point, you either hope to be someplace where you can influence it, some place where you can actually have some kind of leadership or thought or a part of the thinking of it or you're just praying that it goes in the direction that you that you would like to see whether you're left wing or right wing because if it you know if it doesn't then you know I mean I actually I agree with

Haywood there will be violence in the United States in the future it'll be there'll be pockets of it won't be widespread. It won't be all of the south, you know, the north invades all of the south. But, you know, it will be cities and suburbs and, you know, cities against suburbs and exurbs or, I mean, it could be the National Guard or, you know, actual troops against states or, you know, the National Guard and a state against some part of the state that wants to break off or something like that. But when you take into account what Gen Z looks like, when you take into account that millennials are, I mean, we don't even really know what millennials are. Gen X is just being passed over because the boomers won't leave.

So, you know, one, the next generation behind that basically gets left out, which I'm fine with as a Gen Xer. But I don't know how it isn't, it isn't authoritarianism, especially when liberalism is being rejected. When conservatism is being rejected, it is going to be something more akin to the ideologies that World War II were fought over. well look pete as i have been reliably informed by our social betters when fascism comes to america it will be draped in an american flag uh to that point i actually think that you're you're correct in your discussion of uh gen x in the boomers and i actually wonder if there is a possibility that a similar thing will happen to gen z and millennials where millennials are a much bigger generation. I mean, look, Gen X had Gen Z. That's who their parents are. And so, look,

we're all aware of the relevant trends in demography. No one is having kids. And when you take an already small generation, they produce children, it will be smaller. So I think there is a, there's a chance for that to happen, right? That's simply that millennials assume their role as the new boomers. And it's just, we'll be, you know, cheering why you won't, but I might when a 90-year-old AOC finally, you know, shuffles off to a nursing home. And that's just the new world, which I'll be honest, is a fate worse than death. The idea of, you know, an 80-year millennial rike, it just sounds like hell on earth. But just an aside there.

To your point about, about violence, I think that as well, we're much, we're likely to see the increased, assuming, you know, that the kind of current situation with the border does not last, which if we have. another Democratic administration, which we will, that will not last, that there's very likely to be an increased presence of organized crime, particularly in the kind of southern area in the U.S., but, I mean, look, man, like, there are cartel hits out where I live every once in a while because there's a highway that's a major fentanyl trafficking line. So, you know, as the, either, you know, because they can't stop it or simply they care not to, that's likely to become a feature of American life, particularly as the kind of narco tyranny kicks up.

One of the interesting things that you can kind of glean from South Africa is there's actually a point at which a state becomes so stupid and left wing and corrupt that it literally just can't do anything. And so, you know, talking to a few of our buddies there, it's one of the things they say, which is like the weird thing is we're way more free than you are because there are just is there are not the resources to tell you not to do something like i'm not going to get anyone trouble but like south africa has pretty draconian firearms law technically but also like who's checking ito and how many people get murdered and so i think that will be an interesting

element as well to see at what point the monopoly on violence starts to collapse uh in certain areas that is sort of default already the case now a large part of that is is patronage you know you basically give your clients a badge that says the police won't bother you, not necessarily applied to others. Sam Francis, you know, an arc of tyranny, all of that being a given. But I think that will be an interesting thing to watch, right? At what point do, you know, our leaders lose the ability to monopolize violence in their own state, in their own nation state, rather? Because it has already been proven numerous times that for the American Empire, they care way more about foreign policy than they do what happens domestically.

Now, obviously, domestic stuff matters. You know, you need your guys in seats, which is at least nominally connected to domestic politics. But I think the story of what we've seen with Trump 2.0 is that the empire basically made a deal and said, all right, like you can deport. You can deport someone's gardener, we can throw some people in planes, but we still keep what matters. And what matters is foreign forever wars for the benefit of a certain Middle Eastern democracy.

That's what actually matters. And so I think it's reasonable to project that trend into the future and say, well, could there be a world in which there is widespread lawlessness? The resources are simply not there. They are still being shipped to Forever Wars for Israel. I don't think that's 100%. That would be an interesting possibility. That is what the state that the empire cares about,

instead of what happens to you or I. Others, kind of trends that are interesting to see, you've seen elsewhere across the West, particularly in the UK, but also more recently in Australia, a desire to clamp back down the Panopticon, to put the genie back in the bottle, to kind of persecute a right-wing movement. Who knows if they'll try that here?

I mean, they will try, but how far it will get, particularly because one of the things that you've heard oft repeated, and I mentioned this earlier, you know, the idea of, you know, Nuremberg 2, right, punishing, you know, servicemen who were seen to be, you know, supporting the president and his policies too much. But let's also acknowledge the fact that, you know, many of these people have said, we are going to put people in the Trump cabinet in jail, you know, Pete Hegseth in particular, but others as well. uh that could be an interesting destabilization like if we just go full banana republic right if it just becomes brazil where you lose an election and you go to jail uh that could be interesting i don't really know what would happen or if they're serious about that but they sure seem to say it a lot and generally when they say things a lot they tend to happen one of the advantages of being in power but uh that could be another kind of uh you know variable that to throw in the mix as well Icekating.I.E has Christmas in mind.

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Icekating.I.E. I think about something that our mutual friend, Luthemplar, said at the beginning of the year when he came on Pony Express Radio very close to after the inauguration, and he just started in with, okay, if this administration does not destroy our enemies

so that they never can take office again, They are going to take office again, and they are going to come after us. It will be the punishment that you see them talking about. Pete Hegseth is going to have to go before tribunals. And I've seen memes of them on the people in the administration on the gallows, which makes no sense to me because I'm like, they're not doing nearly enough. So, I mean, it's like, what is this all about? which lets you know exactly how serious they are.

But also that leads to if you're, you know, if in 2028 there is a Gavin Newsom or someone worse, it gets into power and they do start coming after people, then I think it goes back to our mutual friend Thomas is right, that it's going to start starting, breaking down to tribing up, people moving into the, moving into the same area, people just deciding that this doesn't work, you know, it's globalism versus the resistance, and we're

the resistance at that point, and the only way the resistance is going to survive in this country is through just basically rejecting the regime and nullif, seeking to nullify anything that they do because let's face it our enemies are as much as we hope and as much as we look at some of the people that we know who may share our sentiments and that they have they could have the era power we just know that that whole meme of nothing you know nothing ever happens is always just hanging there and sometimes it's just really hard to escape Yeah, my main hope with the likely political repression, I mean, it'd be kind of nice if we're in the same cell block in Libtar Gitmo, right? That might be kind of nice.

Alternatively. Push it a button. Yeah. Think about how embarrassing it would be to be the guy who doesn't get blackbacked, right? Everyone else gets gone. You're like, oh, really? I didn't say anything radical enough. No, obviously you're the Fed, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. They leave you out just to be tarred and feather as a federal agent. But in all seriousness, in this one specific instance, Louvre Empolar is entirely right. I think his takes on Southern history are rancid and horrible, to put it mildly. But yeah, he's correct. I love that guy, and he's almost gotten muted a couple of times. Yeah, I just now I use social media much less than just text him,

which is way better because it means. that in order to talk to him, I don't have to sift through a million spurgouts about how the South would have gone communist if they won. Hank Jr. would disagree, and that's enough of a source for me. But in all seriousness, I think that this, again, is the nail in the coffin of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement, is that exact point, that you have to understand, and they showed it last time, right, in between his two, his two, you know, terms in power, they're going to ruin his life. They debanked him. They debanked his wife. They debanked his son. They went through his wife's underwear drawer.

They charged him half a billion dollars for, you know, a piece of technical fraud. And they tried to throw him in jail. That mugshot is iconic. And apparently, the lesson from that is, well, I don't think there was a lesson from that for him. It was simply, well, that was unpleasant. Anyway, let's run the same playbook all over again. It's not serious. The consequences, even if they are simply legal, setting aside what almost happened to him twice, what happened to Charlie Kirk,

was happened to any number of ICE or CBP agents, is that, to be blunt, they're out to get you, and they're not particularly interested in being subtle about it. And by hook or by crook, they will enact their revenge. And so you've got a countdown at the very least, I mean, who knows? It might only be till the midterms. But yeah, you got a countdown. And then they're going to come after you.

And I would have assumed that out of self-interest, if nothing else, just simple selfishness, the Republican Party would have adjusted their strategy accordingly. I would have said, well, I don't really like doing anything, but I guess I have to do something if I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life. And it turns out that their laziness extends even to that point, right? that even to save themselves, they will not act. As regards, I think that point, I think there's an interesting scramble going on for the future of the MAGA movement. This is the kind of, in my mind, real motivation behind the whole woke right debacle. You know, the idea is effectively to blame, you know,

the radicals on the conservative side for ruining our electability in 2026 or 2028. And, you know, the idea is, well, we need to, to purge these people, you know, in return to the sensible, you know, kind of middle path. I view that as almost a non-starter. Even if they can accomplish their immediate goals in purging people, that party will be ungodly, unpopular. No one actually cares about that. And so maybe that is what kills the Republican Party.

That would make my day. Even if you did get sent to Libtar Gitmo, it's like, yeah, well, you know, they're dead, too. So that's better than, when I say they're dead, I mean the Republican Party. party, not any elected official. I want to clarify that. But who knows, man? So yeah, those are kind of my broad predictions about what is to come next. Now, what emerges out of this at the end? To be honest, man, who knows? Legitimately, who knows? It seems as if we are kind of the brink of something dramatic, right? History really has resumed, you know, Francis Fukuyama, BTFO'd, you know, this sort of economic liberalism will not take over the world. And, you know, and

this pivot away from liberalism and from ideology writ large has already we already have early adopters like what is the ideology of jing pink like zheism it doesn't even sound right like what is the ideology of putin like i mean i guess it's that kind of dusty old academic that they they bring around every once in a while and say he's hit uh not hitler wow ferdinian slip there he's putin's uh you know court philosopher no one believes that or even you know bukele who you know know people can have their opinions on but he's not really a particularly ideological figure he's sort of a you know dr francia as you know south american big man uh so yeah i think that in sort of an epochal sense we are witnessing the death of the nernberg regime and more broadly speaking

the death of ideology the death of some totalizing system by which you organize a human society and i just want to say there's a lot of negative things going on you know the the last lack of seriousness from the Republican Party is concerning, especially because, you know, for figures like you and I, Pete, who have associated our names and faces with controversial online statements, there might be some, uh, consequences for that. I don't want to, you know, don't want to downplay that. But I think generally, as in economics, we are consent, we are considering trend lines. And there, the regimes, line is trending down. And no one believes in their magic anymore for a multitude of different reasons and relatively speaking the serious right is on the rise

now look that does not preclude any number of the nasty things you and i have mentioned from happening that does not mean that 2028 is when we sweep into based world but you know when you talk to the the old heads the guys who've been around for a while about what the resistance used to be like it was a much lonelier affair and uh i think that there is a real opportunity for much needed change coming from the political right not an easy road but a road nonetheless which is much better than what we've had for at this point generations yeah you uh when you when you talk about the woke right i mean that's to me that's the last gasp it's the it's the it is how we're going to hold on to it we're going to make these people who are historical

right wing. We're historically, the people using the term woke right are historically left wing. We're historically right wing. And what you understand is, is that you can say that the woke right, or the people throwing around the term woke right are, you know, very huge fans of this country in the Levant that has a lot of power over, over the United States. States. But if you would say that, basically you are going back to what Constantine Kissen said. And Constantine Kissen understands this better than everybody. And by explaining it, he let the cat out of the bag. This is a myth war. We are seeking to destroy myths. And the myth that we're seeking to destroy is the myth that they hold onto the dearest. And that is World War II. And that is Nuremberg and that is anti-fascism and by seeking to but by saying oh they're just like the left because they want to destroy myths and myths are important they're saying our myth is the

right myth it's the only one that counts but then when you start studying their myth you're like okay so your myth led us to this it led us to if you have a kid you do not want to to send them to school. If you live in Charlotte, you do not wanna ride the light rail. This is what your myth has led us to, and we are going to destroy your myth. And that's the only thing they have left.

So what is the future? The future is new myths, but those myths are going to have to, they're going to have to work in reality, no matter how they're structured or who's structuring them. And that's another, in my mind, note of kind of positive progress. For a long time, people on our side of things have talked about the need for art,

the need for cultural expression. And slowly there's been more and more of a concerted effort to accomplish that. And in my mind, in the last year, is where we started to get things that were not just good for a political book, not just good for a novel written by, you know, a right-wing Anna. But properly good stuff. You know, our mutual friend John Slaughter, his book Crimson Tide, Carl Dahl, who you and I have really abused and recorded just hours with, with no compensation. You know, his book on the Spanish Civil War faction with the Crusaders. Or most recently, you know, Andrew Edwards, right, Crowbar. All of these are, to be honest, attempts at making a myth. You know, sure, there's no Crowbarism

ideology. You see a different world there. You see a different vision of what is possible, a different vision of what is laudable. And look, Kissen is, and this is the only time you will hear me say this, Kisson's entirely right. Humans are memetic. We think in memetic ways. And it's funny after that interview came out, there was a meme going around with, you know, Harvey Arbardem from No Country for Old Men, saying the classic line, you know, if your rule brought you here, what uses the rule? And all of these eternal political losers, right, the James Lindsay and others, we're saying, ah, we got you. You're identifying with this guy who killed people in a movie, you idiot. One, if you have a problem with right wingers identifying with people who

killed people in movies, have I got something to tell you about the movie American Psycho? But also, it completely missed the point there. The point is, and this is really that I don't care mechanism we talked about earlier, which is, for people of a certain age, these things are sacred, and we know that they're sacred. We know that this God is real, because look at all of the benefits he gave us. Every time we prayed, he sent us rain. My house is worth $2 million. How can the values that led me here be wrong? The problem is, man, that's a zero-sum game. And for all of those wins, there's been a corresponding loser. And you have a group of people who are sitting there saying, exactly what Javier Bardem said. If this rule, if this myth is so great, why are we here? It's the same

idea you see in that iconic image of young men storming the beaches at Normandy, you know, where it's like this is what they had in mind. And the thought bubble over their head is some horrendous piece of, you know, modern degeneracy. And it's a bitter meme, right? We understand what's being expressed there. That, you know, our culture blew itself up, expended blood, lives, and treasure. and for what and for what to benefit other people's children right to fight more pointless wars it's no shock that people are rejecting that and if we look at our project like we are iconic glass we are smashing balls or the big ball if you will maybe literally i guess but that is what we are about and sure you know that's really the mode that the right has existed

for a very long time, a culture of critique, someone might even say, constantly tearing down that narrative. And there is still work to be done there. I think Daryl Cooper, I'll mention it for the second time, is doing yeoman's work there, attacking that central myth of one of the most murderous empires in history, right, the Nuremberg regime, but is socially engineered people across the planet, including you and I. But we're just starting to see the birth of that second part of what comes next first in cultural output and man i think that's really exciting because it's something we you and i both have been waiting for like come on like when are we going to get it and i don't think we're there yet you're starting to see like oh wow that was really good it wasn't some political diatribe it wasn't

some manifesto but the values in this the framing of that story are profoundly illiberal i want to say illiberal that makes it sound like it exists in opposition to liberal but unrelated to just a completely different set of values. And I think that is what needs to happen. Now, the disparate nature of culture that I mentioned earlier, this kind of algorithmically driven atomization still applies. There are a million different ways to attack this kind of godless globalist empire. But, and this is again, a point from Carl Dahl. There is a need for this sort of, you know, big tent opposition to that, you know, the great satan as someone might say and we have historical examples the spanish you know a few others have managed to do it it can be done and uh it needs to be done and i think that it is certainly still

nascent but it is alive and uh that's pretty much all i can offer as far as hope goes beat where can people find your work and where can they support you you can find my work the j bird and show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen to podcasts, much like another show you may have heard of. You want the episodes early and ad-free. I'll have to throw me a couple bucks. It's what I do. I appreciate it. Oh, also, I've been writing more on Substack, writing more in general, so you can check me out on Substack. All the essays are free. I just do them for personal gratification. And maybe soon, you'll see my writing somewhere else. I'll be sure to promote it when it happens. Again, Pete, I appreciate it, man. Thank you, Jay. Appreciate you.

You're going to be able to be. Thank you.