The Pete Quiñones Show - Episode 1309: The Thirty Years War - Part 3 - w/ Thomas777

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

62 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Thomas continues a series on the 30 Years War, which many historians count as the most important European conflict prior to the 20th century. In this episode he talks about the various confessional heritages of the groups involved.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Buy Me a CoffeeThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas' WebsiteThomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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Thomas is back for episode three of the 300, of the 300. That would be horrendous. The 30 years war, how you doing, Thomas? I'm doing well. It's important to talk about the confessional aspect of the conflict because that was a significant element, obviously. But the way it's presented, I think, is incorrect. And even some of the, even a lot of the histories I like,

including one I cite a lot by this one British academic. he doesn't understand calvinism i mean there's there's some active prejudice when you read catholic or um or a church of england coded writers i think but then other people who have sort of a secular disposition they just don't they don't understand the faith you know i'm gonna run into that a lot i mean because it's my heritage and i you know i think i'm one of the weirdest catholics around because i understand calvinism better than i do i understand catholicism because i actually went to i actually went to school to learn calvinism yeah no i mean and that's uh and i mean don't get me wrong i most of the guys in my cadre locally are catholics i'm in chicago when i

i i think catholics are awesome i don't i'm ecumenical as fuck you know i mean like i i've got moslem comrades i've got immense respect for i think people know i get a lot of shit for that from simpletons and uh zogglings and assorted other morons who you know aren't on my level but uh point being i i don't have some bad feeling towards catholics quite the contrary and to be truth be told i i don't think most people and their lack of understanding of the reformed faith comes from some kind of hostility or prejudice i think they just don't understand it And admittedly, it is, it is sort of strange to people who have a, you know, a primarily kind of liturgical view of worship. I totally get that.

I don't take it some kind of way or something, but because it may, you know, one of the reasons why I think it's ill understood is there's this kind of a sense of trying to transpose the middle. ages onto the modern period and there's a sense of oh well this was just a religious war that's the wrong way to look at it and church affairs when i'm speaking of the roman church creeping into politics particularly the imperial uh structure and the holy rome empire that was a big problem you know i mean axiomatically there's always a political aspect to institutionalized uh or ecclesiastic but that but we're talking about what was perceived as an active subversion of secular political affairs as a kind of power play and the Jesuits played a big role in this which is really interesting and we're going to get into all that stuff today and then

we'll get back to the hard uh and fast kind of power political and military aspect next time because the other big sort of subject within this broader pastiche of variables is the Swedish intervention and Sweden was a tremendous military power at the time

you know you've got to look at Sweden as having in part inherited what had been the the territorial imperatives of the Danes, as well as Sweden becoming the loci of Scandinavian power

at large. You know, and this was a very, very strong constellation of factors in their favor, including mentioned material, which tended towards tremendous industriousness and all efforts for engineering in military matters and you know a great military aptitude but you know there's this complex interplay in terms of religious tensions that did play this positive role you know the 16th century to the preceding decades one of the reasons why the Europeans could effectively mobilize against the Turks is because compared to the Middle Ages, this early modern period was far, far less of violent. You know, the Middle Ages are characterized by emperors, not just, you know, local gentry and lesser nobility, but emperors being deposed by vassals, wholesale massacres, sometimes motivated by sectarian and peasant. or literal class revolts, that's not just some sort of Marxist mythology superimposed

over history, but, you know, matters of faith being bound up with secular disputes over a legitimate authority and succession therein, that wasn't really something characteristic of you know, the 16th and early 17th century at all, you know, and, uh, and, uh, the papacy had a problem, you know, because really, one of the things they emphasize, not just for stability, but also to sustain their mandate such that they played a meaningful and enduring role in the political order, which again really flowed from the Holy Roman Empire.

There was a primacy placed on organization. You know, and the exclusive mandate of the Roman church to interpret the word of God for all Christians that was really the source of that organizational imperative. So when Martin Luther and his followers started stressing the primacy of doctrine over the medium of the church, you know, as the, as God's representative on earth, you know, that

that caused a real controversy at all levels of political power. That's the way to understand it. This wasn't some trivial dispute between theologians or something as, you know, a lot of these sort of middling university types like to present it as.

But what's fundamentally important, too, is that, you know, Luther's Reformation he was quite literally looking to reform the church. This was totally different than what Calvin had in mind and Calvin's successors who were even more radical than he was. You know, and really, such that Lutherans could be said to have been radicalized, when the council of cardinals, those convened to try and heal the,

at Trent in uh from the 1540s until the 1560s they were trying to heal the emergent sectarian rift but what ended up happening is uh they came out branding um the standard bears the Reformation and those who evangelized the reformist perspective as heretics. You know, its final sort of decree and decision was defining Catholicism really as the faith of Europe. And this kind of revival of the faith within the Holy Roman Empire or within Habsburg domains is what they translated to do. and devising a program, quite literally, to exterminate heresy through the revival of Roman Catholic life, confessional life, but also, you know, through bringing down the weight of some terrifyingly punitive measures on the enemies of the church, who again had been identified with a fairly broad brush by this point. you know one of the uh and this came the way this trickled down sort of to liturgical and identitarian matters and we'll get more to that later because i don't want to get ahead of

ourselves but even things like the eucharist you know and the dispute over the meaning of the Holy Communion and the Last Supper because things like that, things like communion, there was a significance because the centrality of mass is this collective act of worship that brought not just congregational communities together, but brought them together with representatives of the Roman church, you know, the presiding priest.

you know obviously Calvinist in particular revolted against this and declared the real presence to be the idea of it to be idolatrous and stuff but you know the

the consulate Trent doubled down on these liturgical aspects and these communitarian aspects of worship because that was something that was possible through what amount of the statutory means you know so the trinantine mass um if you abided it that signals subordination to the

to the pope you know and his infallibility and his absolute authority is god's emissary on earth you know and this led also to counter-reformation partisans you know reviving the idea of the eucharist cult and doubling and tripling down on on um you know belief in the real presence as a as a testament of faith And so these Corpus Christi procession started popping up, you know, encouraged by local bishops and whatnot, you know, where people had literally walked behind the parish priest as a testament to their, you know, commitment. And people who opposed to this, even people who were otherwise pious, they were very much marked out as, and sometimes, even branded as you know people who are tending towards heretical ideas so this becomes very political you know nakedly so um you know and this also this also is what kind of brought lutherans and Calvinists together in ways that wouldn't have organically happened and this is really

interesting because later when the prussian stem talking centuries later when the prussian state became prussia the a unified church emerged consisting of uh you know catholic or um lutheran and calvinist congregations and in prussia that experiment worked which is kind of fascinating but uh its roots uh i mean by that point there was a discreet Prussian identity and people were very self-conscious of being German and that emerged also

two in the 30 years war this like self-conscious German identity I mean local identitarian characteristics remained but this became part of

that entire equation but you know it uh marking out people with a broad brush on the question of the Eucharist and some other key

doctrinal and liturgical aspects brought people together and common political cause that probably otherwise would not have been. You know, and, but it wasn't all punitive in nature. A lot of the Tridentine reform. Let me ask you question.

Do you think it, you know, people ran to the other side, like Calvin famously rejected the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, which were used in the first couple centuries against some of the heresies by, you know, basically that Ignatius was a disciple of John the Apostle. and he's arguing that the uh i can't remember who he was arguing against but he was saying that they deny christ coming in the body uh christ coming in the body um therefore they denied the eucharist and you know the body in the eucharist um and calvin basically went so far as to say those were forgeries those those letters that had been um i mean do you think that it caused you know overreaction yeah probably in part i mean I'll get to that in a minute. But at the same time, you know, I, this whole idea that there's this

politicized institution that is the intermediary between man and the word of God is problematic. And, you know, this. Yeah, that's the last 500 years of history. Yeah. No, and I, Calvin's little perspective and in pure reform congregations, the idea is that communion, it's a commemoration of the Last Supper. And this idea that through the blessing by way of a bishop or a priest, you know, the host literally becomes the body of Christ, the Calvin's perspective is that that's idolatrous and pagan and arguably even satanic. and I'm not I'm not saying that's my perspective I don't want to get into some religious fight with our Catholic brothers and sisters but you know um Calvin it was interesting the way that Calvin treated the early church fathers because again and I'll get to this in a minute I don't want to get too far ahead of myself um you know he he argued that predestination is you know the the earliest church fathers I mean this this is

what was the perspective of what became the Catholic Church. So Calvin, it's important on the one hand, yeah, he basically rejected the Catholic liturgy and the most hostile and condemnatory terms. But on the other hand, he said, there's not something inherently wrong with the Catholic Church. It's that the men who, in his view, hijacked the mandate that they had owing to their lineage going back to the, you know,

literal disciples of the Christ, you know, pagan and, and, and, and, uh, quite literally devilish things were allowed to subvert, you know, what, what's proper, uh, worship. Um, so it's, it's not, it's not accurate. I mean, I know you weren't saying this, but it's not accurate to say that Calvin rejected the early fathers outright. I'd have to look into the discrete subject matter you're talking about i'm not i'm strong on bible scholarship i'm not strong on early calvinist history other than the political aspects of the regency in geneva and things like that but i'll i'll try and flesh it out the best i can but to bring it back to the situation with respect to

Luther and the evangelical reformers the the council of trance they did try and address some of these problems you know to

assuage the anxieties of last Catholics and you know people who you know kind of had a softer view of the Roman church in the Lutheran camp, you know, they expanded the curriculum of, you know, seminary and education, said priests understood official doctrine and this tendency of individual

priests to stamp their own interpretation on, while passing off a church doctrine, in owing to localized intrigues or owing to, you know, minority viewpoints on scripture and things. You know, they did a point to sort of homogenize what was being conveyed to congregations at a localized level. And bishops were required to live within their diocese. so uh you know there was an understanding that individual congregants at least in formal terms they had access to like the church hierarchy you know and they they didn't feel like they were just receiving you know dick tots from on high or whatever you know and um they did they try They did a lot to try and stamp out corruption, too.

And there was a big problem with priests secretly getting married and becoming very rich, you know, because it's like, okay, so, you know, some young priest, you know, he secretly marries some nobleman's daughter, you know, because now like that nobleman, he's got an inn with the church, you know. and this guy in turn he gets very wealthy and he's got a wife and his whole secret family I mean this happened a lot you know

and that became a big problem I mean aside in the fact that I mean it makes hash with you know one's vows and things and that's a completely cynical way of you know of abiding one's

vocation but it is it also was incredibly corrupting politically and um the modern confessional box the confession being a private affair uh that came out of these the tridentine reforms you used to confession used to be done like before the whole congregation which obviously you know that there was a public shaming aspect of that because people then you know use that to you know try and um exploit the weaknesses of their personal rivals and things and it also put a lot of people off a confession because it's you know um it properly it's between the congregant and you know the priest as the

representative of the church which is god's representative on earth is not supposed to be this confrontation between you know the sinner and the congregation obviously you know um the veneration of saints became a big deal that became kind of the defining mark of tridentine catholicism you know uh holding up pious individuals not just as role models and examples of a christian life but people who were directly you know kind of direct emissaries between you know congregants and god and it's also like local saints became a big deal you know uh it uh one of the things that the lutherans had going for them is uh they were very very good at kind of weaving together this understanding of a christian life being a very german thing you know um i mean that this happened over the course of centuries but there was a communitarian aspect of lutheran evangelism you know being um that you know the kind of the kind of germanic reputation for truth telling and kind of openness, that's what it is to be a good Christian, you know, and pagans and foreigners and

heretics, you know, they, they, this isn't, this isn't coded into them like it is to us, you know, and, uh, local dialects, you know, uh, like Lutheran pastors, they, uh, they'd sermonize in local dialects, you know, which was still varied quite a bit, you know, even among people who spoke a common, you know, Germanic language. You know, so the Catholic parishes, the liturgy remained in Latin, but other aspects were performed in the local language, you know, and a lot, they added in a lot of local customs relating to the, you know, the music that was performed, and the songs that had come up.

he'd worship you know stuff intended to strengthen solidarity and communitarian identity that drew from ethnos you know um they also made a big deal the a big aspect of the tridentine reforms was pilgrimages you know the one of the oldest shrines in your there's a shrine at vinegarten and another at Fuldern that actually I think survived well into the modern era and then there's the black Madonna somewhere in Poland which I cover what it's called but that that tendency of orthodox iconography to have metals insinuated into it and there's a specific class of of

icons that depict the Blessed Virgin holding baby Jesus, and she's pointing, and when the light refracts off the metal, it looks as if it's emanating from her fingertip to illuminate Jesus.

And essentially, what one's supposed to derive from that is that you know, Mary points the way of Christian piety and that's that's an orthodox tendency but it very much mirrors the the cult of the saints and the and the public cult of the saints that they came out of this reformist tendency you know so uh the so what i'm getting it is that you know the the so

What I'm getting it is that, you know, the imperial culture and particularly the Hasbrook culture, it became anextricably bound up with this sort of Catholic revivalism, you know, and, and this was dramatically exacerbated by the emergence of the Jesuits, who became very, very popular. powerful um around this time and the jesuits were controversial then even among catholics and the i mean they remained so today for for different reasons but one of the reasons one of the reasons the jesuits were a militant order you know ignatiously all it was a soldier and then he he had a vision which brought him to christ and uh you know you know know they were established in 1540 by people to creed and they had a clear mission to destroy Protestantism well they all called it a quote epidemic of the soul you know and this led Lutherans and Calvinists alike they came to

view they they came to view the Jesuit says as the Pope's vanguard and their mortal enemies you know and that wasn't totally unfounded you know their job was to displace Protestants

and also to round out Catholics were viewed as being soft on Protestant heresies from position of authority and then we're required you know

enforce Catholic doctrine as part of the Tridentine schema of vitality. And these tactics became overtly political, obviously, because some recalcitrant Duke or Baron or Elector, you know, the Jesuit would to target him for removal. And then suddenly the man who replaces him is some sort of Habsburg partisan who makes a show of his commitment to

Tridentian revivalism. You know, you can't you can't extirpate that from you know, a negatively political set of concerns. So this was the

uh this was the this was sort of the foundation or the background and the the climate that was underway for you know decades before the onset of hostilities and it was still going on you know by the by the onset of formal um combat you know to be clear too and i'm not sure a lot of people realize this you find a lot of loyalist uh propaganda going back centuries including well into the 20th century you know during the troubles and ulster that that singles out the jesuits as being a particularly um sinister cadre within the catholic church um that's not that's not odd if you consider the context for years even very very sort of serious people that weren't prone to extreme cultish tendencies within

proxanism they insisted that guy fox was a jesuit agent and that the gunpowder plot was basically like a jesuit operation you know i mean you can i i i don't accept that but it's not it's not unthinkable or something or it's not as crazy as i might say down to people in 2025, you know, but they, you know, and the Jesuits were extreme. Even a lot of arch counter-reformation and counter-enlightenment partisans viewed them with skepticism and as a potential fifth column, you know, and they kind of, they kind of became a cult unto themselves you know um and obviously too there was the experience of the templars centuries proceeding that was very much on people's minds i mean that's a whole other subject matter

but um they also they had a weird view or a heterodox view and they were all as confessors one of the things that jesuits had do they'd approach princes who they felt were making too many concessions to Protestants or who were insufficiently enthusiastic about abiding the Tridentine reforms and they claim in their role as confessor that princes are uniquely susceptible to being tempted by the devil and they can be deceived you know to granting concessions to heretics you know and if these concessions were politically necessary in the short term the Jesuit view is that God would forgive the

Princeton question so long as he confessed that he'd been deceived you know at a tone for it and promised that he'd revoke these concessions at first opportunity or first expedient moment and then actually followed

through with that you know his salvation was assured and I mean that's that's really strange you know that goes beyond you know polite fictions or whatever to sort of assuage the concerns of the pious or the righteous, you know, to accept a less than to accept a noble who doesn't live up to the, to his office, you know, there's something that, there's something about that that doesn't seem correct. You know, this, this, this, uh,

this priestly order that has substantial military power that's going around basically taking on a role that should be reserved for the pope frankly you know um so that this was a this this was a problem again even for a lot of Catholics it wasn't the Jesuit turned to some boogeyman that was been fed to leave out of protestant like um you know the fever of protestant radicals or something um you know it uh and that's um and that's um and that's one of this also played into the ambitions of lutherans because one of the ironically i mean not so ironically if you know the relevant history and if you know something about the competing theological perspectives it was this kind of heterodoxy within the roman catholic church including within its hierarchy that was one of the big objections that lutherans had you know lutheran in a large measure wanted to reform existing structures he didn't want to burn down the roman catholic church and create something totally new

you know one of his big issues was that the pope you know these doctrines are inconsistent from one prelate to the next and from one succession to the next and you've got factions within the Roman church like the Jesuits who don't seem to be bound by the centrality of doctrine but are able to present their own interpretations with, you know, while invoking something approaching their own infallibility, you know, which is incredibly problematic, you know, for any believing Catholic, you know, not just for Lutheran reformers, but, you know, and that too. Lutherans didn't abide Salah Scriptura like Calvinists do

but Luther did view scripture as the source of all truth you know and misinterpretation of scripture by the papacy is catastrophic you know and that's always got to be the metric by which, you know, people decision-making is measured.

The, and that's really the, you know, of course, too, I mean, that takes on a political, I mean, that takes on a political, function because if you reduce the role of priest as an intermediary you know that diminishes the power of the Vatican to impact the body politic in ways beyond those rudimentary you know and then so and Luther also he wanted to reduce the sacrament to baptism baptism in the Eucharist you know he didn't object to the doctrine of real presence like the Calvinists did but you know in the view of believing Catholics he gutted the liturgy you know and on the one hand he increased late participation in worship well selectively exclusively

including aspects of Christian practice that, you know, would insinuate priests into the congregation in a leadership role, you know, and this was viewed as very cynical by his enemies and by a power play, and in part, I think that it was, you know. he also he wrote his own catechism yeah yeah no i mean yeah i mean obviously yeah i mean obviously i'm not going to sit here and say that i find lutheranism to be its own thing i mean it's not just i mean obviously i'm sure that's colored by my own confessional heritage but it you know but at the same time

there is something to there is it's improvise It's improper for people to view Lutheranism as a middle ground between Roman Catholicism and, you know, Calvinism and dissenters, because it's not that, and it's got a totally different heritage intellectually. But, you know, Luther did draw a distinction between salvation and... sanctification and justification for salvation you know and he reputed this idea that every man and woman is trapped in this cycle of of sin and and repentance and contrition and confession there are confessional lutherans but that it's it has a different function than in the roman church generally you know and uh there was an emphasis on Christian living, you know, rather than constant preparation for a good death, or this sort of constant, uh, effort to balance the proverbial scales. you know and that uh but it's not nearly as uncompromising as you know the calvinous metaphysics i mean let me put it that way in so teriology you know but i like i said i i don't it's it's a very different tendency. I mean, that's why at the top of the hour, I made the point that

these, the unification at congregational level of Lutherans and Calvinists in Prussia is pretty remarkable. You know, the, but it also, too, the, there was a basic fragmentation within the Holy Roman Empire and again there's always going to be a call for churchmen to try and mitigate these kinds of

divisions particularly when crisis appears to be emergent you know that's perennial so even I mean I don't want to spin this off into an abstract discussion of political theory and political ontology, I accept the postulate that all politics is conceptually theological. But in terms of literal theology, it's inevitable that in a situation

or where there's a fragmentation of sovereign authority and the seat of that authority upon which the entire political culture is based in ethical as well as structural terms a sort of

revivalist sensibility is there's always going to be pressure on churchmen in order to facilitate that and in turn that's always going to cause adherence of the minority perspective to feel that they're being in the most

general possible terms shut out the political processes and the most severe that they're about to be programmed by the majority okay um you know and this also compromised Luther's credibility with Calvinists because the Lutherans were constantly and Luther himself was constantly drawing this distinction between worldly and political matters you know

but then he was he was insinuating himself into ecclesiastical affairs for negatively political reasons. You know, you can't have it both the way. I don't understand like I'm trashing Lutherans. I'm trying to be objective on this and, you know,

and, you know, treat these parties' factions equally. You know, I, it's just to be clear. I don't want people to get the wrong idea. you know and Luther also one of things that's interesting and one of the things that's interesting and one of the things that did Luther was Luther himself and most of the early Lutheran authorities within the Holy Roman

umpire they were basically honest there wasn't a corruption problem and uh the the roman church uh lands that were appropriated it wasn't a situation like in england um you know the uh it wasn't a question like local lords couldn't just help themselves to these resources you know it went to fund uh lutheran institutions that trained clergy, it went to quite literally build churches and give alms to the poor, and that's it, you know, this changed later on for the worst, but I've heard people make the case that, you know, there was this looting underway by Lutherans of church wealth, and that's just not true. you know um and that's i think i think that's important to acknowledge that uh you know i'm contrasting that with henry the eighth who uh you know the monastic land was quite literally appropriated and and sold off to you know to satisfy you know uh state debts and expenditures and things you know just unconscionable stuff you know um

it uh there's nothing comparable like that happened within the the lutheran hierarchy and uh famously there was um emperor charles the fifth um when the doctrinal controversy was really heating up and you know the hostility to Lutheranism was approaching zenith Charles took to sponsoring meetings between theologians and not only does not accomplish anything but it led to

it led to the Catholics accusing the Lutherans of stealing church property and enriching themselves and fermenting sedition among Catholic sun or attempting to and basically in order to steal from the church you know and that's that's something you see it's that still comes up in some in some Catholic histories and I mean don't be wrong I understand people being protective of

their confessional heritage you know I've written extensively on that I but it's not it's not um it's not accurate this wasn't a looting operation you know and suggesting it is is dishonest but um briefly i know i may at least need to in part cover the confessional aspect in another episode because our time's getting short but to understand the Calvinist perspective on Lutheranism as you mentioned the book of Concord or the Concordia or I think in America most most practicing Lutherans referred with the Lutheran Confessions that's the Lutheran doctrinal standard that's viewed as authoritative

it's the it's the creedal documents of the Evangelical Lutheran Church I believe that was published in Dresden in 1580. Dresden is the Ced of Lutheranism in some basic ways. And it was published on the anniversary of the Augsburg Confession, Charles V, of the Diet of Augsburg. I think the authoritative Latin edition was published in the 1580s in Leipzig, but the original document was published in Dresden. and those who accept it

they believe it to be a faithful exposition of the Bible and the meaning of the Holy Scriptures which are set forth in the Concordia as you know the scripture is a sole divine source of all Christian doctrine the dissenters you know calvinists they claimed that this was not any different than they called it the book of discord thinking they were being funny and that is kind of funny but they don't disrespect anybody's urnage but uh the calvinist claimed and that this was an

in position of orthodoxy that was not any different than you know what what what the roman church did you know um so the calvinist rally and cry was for us a quote second reformation you know um and uh calvinism and the holy roman empire it was did different than where it took root in the rest of Europe. And to be clear, Calvinism is interesting. And one of the reasons why I talk about the Calvinist diaspora in places like Ulster, in places like America, you know, in places like Australia and New Zealand, Calvinists weren't and aren't a majority on the ground anywhere in Europe.

And on the one hand, this led to a kind of deep pietism that was community-based and tended to strongly reinforce. ethnic identity but there wasn't Calvinists were essentially the minority everywhere they were you know and generally it was common people and Calvinism appealed a lot to yeomanry that's one of the reasons it took root in Prussia in the way it did I believe but in the Empire in the Holy Roman Empire Calvinism was basically led by princes and nobles and that's one of the reasons why they developed disproportionate power in military terms in the 30 years war you know and

this is one of the reasons why it was these noble types who are pious Calvinists the term reformed came from them because calvinist the term calvinist it had it had connotations of illegality and in outlaw sensibilities um and because their view was that we need a second reformation um to eradicate the remnants of what they call papist superstition that's that's why they're called and we're called reform you know because we're the standard bearers or they're the standard bearers of you know the second reformation

you know that's going to bring that's that's going to eradicate idolatrous practices that deviate from you know the

the word of God which is which is the only correct exposition of Christian doctrine you know so this you know and again the uh

Calvinists went as far you know like I said I they were viewed almost like the Taliban and I'm not that I'm not trying to be funny I mean they they there was instances of Calvinists burning and destroying icons um you know

they banished vestments and the high altar from churches um Calvinist zealots they'd often smash paintings and sculptures you know to prove that

cultic objects and icons were powerless ministers would dress they'd either dress like common people or like professors you know and their notion was of a

universal priesthood of congregants you know any man who can like any man who's literate and who's pious you know and who can learn scripture you know can convey the truth of the word of God to his fellow man and woman

you know there's not there's not some priestly intermediary you know between Christ and his congregation you know and

they made a big deal you know again they abhorred the notion of the real presence and this this had become like we talked about a moment ago a an incredibly divisive

subject matter you know and uh among other things uh to calvinist and uh you know this comes as no surprise if you've read the institutes of the christian religion among other things you know the idea of the body of christ being consumed by a human organism and turned into excrement through the digestive system of a physical body that's Calvin has found that utterly unacceptable for people to suggest you know so there was Calvin's congregations that went as far as to ban wine from communion observances replacing it with beer to make it clear that this is a commemorative event the real presence is is a is a grotesque lie you know um it's really

interesting but i mean i think so you know i mean i the significance that this these things take on is fascinating um now pro now calvinist satirology obviously is the most controversial point of belief, I think, for a lot of people. Calvin, again, he didn't say that the Catholic Church itself is just abhorrent from inception. There were aspects of Catholic ideas that he said were correct. And his view was that the Roman church had essentially been hijacked and had fallen into heresy. you know the early the early church fathers they condemned the idea that you know there was any path of salvation other than um you know other than uh other than predestination you know the idea that god could not know of of somebody's uh salvation whether this could be some temporally contingent question based on willful acts and works.

You know, it's very clear. I mean, St. Augustine argued that God alone determines salvation, you know, and the fortunes of both the elect and the reprobate being determined by God, alone and God exists outside of any, you know, temporal or physical or geometric configuration or boundary. This isn't something that Calvin just came up with, owing to, you know, owing to a fascination of the early modern cultures,

you know, academic culture with, with formal logic and things you know um and yeah your point uh Calvin selectively redacted authorities um from the same epoch that he considered to not be congruous with his own interpretation and that needs to be said too like I said I can't speak to the specific specific subject matter that you raised because I haven't researched it in depth but um yeah that needs to be said but um yeah that's um i'm gonna stop here because uh i don't want to spin off into a uh a whole other exposition that you know is requires more attention than the next few minutes a little while but yeah i i hope this i hope nobody found

is unbearably dull it's important to understand the sectarian aspect what's really interesting is uh how reformed people particularly people fleeing uh the inquisition uh related to sunni moslems and ottoman territories i think that's really interesting um there's a there's a peculiar confessional dialogue between Sunnis and reformed that I think is something that's not discussed enough but yeah that's all I got no that was great I mean I um I followed it all because I mean that's what I had to learn so no you're you're a knowledgeable dude and I think I think it's funny that you're you went to a Catholic you went to a Catholic school and i went for higher ed and i went to a calvinist school for higher

no that's uh i went to a jesuit school too like on top of it and i that that was interesting man like i no i had a great time at leola and um i i mean a guy uh tom engerman he was my political theory professor and uh he was uh speaking of lutherans he was a lutheran guy and uh he butted heads very much with the the the jesuit but administration, but he, you know, he really schooled me in political theory in a way that was invaluable and really guided my thinking in life. But no, it was a great institution, man. And I look back very fondly on my time now.

All right. We'll pick up part four the next time. And I will encourage everybody to go over to Thomas's substack, Real Thomas 777.com. substack.com and you can basically connect to him from uh from there to anywhere else he is and uh go and support thomas he's finishing up season three of uh mind phaser his podcast and um then i think what do you um you'll release uh you release to the public season two at the end of this or how do you do that no what i do is when i release a new season i i the previous you can get season one and two for free like in their entirety when i begin season four season

three is i'm going to remove that from behind the paywall and just it's only going to be that current season episodes that are behind the paywall that's how we do it just just go support thomas it's five bucks a month yeah you can do it it's definitely worth that um but thomas until the next time thank you very much appreciate it always yeah thank you man merry christmas everybody merry christmas everyone You know, Thank you.