The Pete Quiñones Show - Germany's WW2 Atomic Weapons Program w/ Thomas777 - Complete

Episode Date: November 2, 2025

2 Hours and 47 MinutesPG-13Here is the complete audio of Thomas talking about Germany's atomic program during WW2.Thomas' SubstackRadio Free Chicago - T777 and J BurdenThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

At ESB, we're committed to communities. And through our Energy for Generations Fund, we're helping organisations like Together Academy to provide pathways into employment for young people with Down syndrome. By giving our young adults these skills, we don't just help them. We also help the wider community as well.

Every year in Ireland, we contribute over €2 million to community projects. Because it's not just for us. It's for future us. Learn more at esb.a.e. forward slash communities. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th

because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November.

Lidl, more to value. At ESB, we're committed to communities. And through our Energy for Generations Fund, we're helping organisations like Together Academy to provide pathways into employment for young people with Down syndrome. By giving our young adults these skills, we don't just help them. We also help the wider community as well.

Every year in Ireland, we contribute over two million euro to community projects. Because it's not just for us. It's for future us. Learn more at esb.a.e forward slash communities. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Cignon-S show. So, Thomas, we got a new series that you wanted to start here. You mentioned it, and I was like, we need to jump all over it,

especially since you mentioned the Oppenheimer movie that's out and that this would be a good supplement or side-by-side to it. So tell everybody a little bit about what you're thinking. I want to discuss the German atomic bomb, like everything about it. Like, if such a program existed, you know, conceptually, what was the catalyst for it? You know, what was the state of science at the time? And also, in kind of more apoccal terms, you know, I want to talk about nuclear weapons generally or atomic weapons in that era.

You know, people, people have a misunderstanding about, about, about the bomb and about nuclear weapons generally. They, uh, people like Thomas Schilling and like Herman Kahn, they made the point that nuclear weapons are like any other weapons. They're just far, far more muscle bound. The, uh, the ability to impose, you know, devastating attrition in an instant, this is some, you know, marks them apart, as does, you know, very, like, strategic variables relating to their destructive power. It creates peculiar paradigms. I mean, all that is true, okay? But they don't have,

they don't have great utility in any kind of like general applied sense. And there's actually very few paradigms where they really are a game changer. that they really advance, you know, the, the military ranges of a state, you know, instantaneously. You know, like it, um, there's this kind of like, there's this kind of like mythical belief in super weapons just, I mean, it's like an ongoing thing. It just seems to people assign a kind of mystique, you know, to war tech. Um, and I guess like nuclear weapons could be viewed as kind of like the zenith of that. So I mean, there's just that. But beyond that, there's deliberately cultivated narratives around the issue historically, like the development of the first atomic bomb.

A lot of this has to do with anti-fascism, you know, like ideological anti-fascism. A lot of this has to do with rationalizations for, you know, America's development of the bomb and attempt to defend its monopoly on such capabilities. you know the there's this idea that was uh presented by the war department um in the aftermath of um you know the the nuclear assault in japan that um well we developed this thing because you know the the third rike was was feverously developing an atomic capability and you know that would that would that would that would have changed everything you know and this this evil tyrannical regime bent on world domination could hold hold the planet hostage with atomic weapons that's and that's

preposterous for a lot of reasons but it does beg the question as to was uh was the german rike developing an atomic bomb actively uh that's a complicated question for a lot of reason not the least of which um not not not uh not the least of which not for reasons not the least of which is the fact that Oppenheimer was not the quote father of the atomic bomb. Now there was Einstein. A man named Otto Hahn was. And this didn't used to be controversial, okay? Who was Otto Han?

O'Han was born in 1879. He died when he was quite elderly in July, 1968. Han is the father of nuclear chemistry, and specifically, nuclear fission. Okay. Han and his assistant, a lady named a let's say

mightner. They discovered the radioactive isotopes of radium, thorium, protactinum, and most importantly uranium. In the second episode, I'm no physics guy, but I do know something as much as a layman can

kind of understand these things. Look at into why uranium is so important and like what uranium actually is. I'm going to bore everybody to death. But it's important to understand in applied capacities, you know, how atomic research developed into a a

discreetly military endeavor, okay? But Han also through his experience, through his experiments, which were myriad, he discovered the phenomena, what's called atomic recoil in nuclear isomerism.

And he pioneered a lot of the techniques that ultimately gave rise to carbon dating. Okay. So the guy was an intellectual giant. But quite literally, everybody's subsequent, every researcher engaged in nuclear science. and specifically, uh, um, weapons-based nuclear research. They were, they were literally, they were literally borrowing from Hans' research, okay? That's indisputable. And, um, like I said, in the epoch, he was credited as such. Um, this idea that, you know, like, oh, that the Germans were just like these crazy fools and they didn't understand physics or something or, I mean, that's ass and I'm belief.

Also, like, this idea that like, oh, like, you know, because of anti-Semitism, you know, the Germans didn't have a coterie of top scientific minds. Like that's preposterous. Like, not only is that preposterous, but quite literally, you know, the technology that facilitated the development of nuclear weapons

was literally invented by the Germans, okay? Now, for background two, Han, he received in 1944 the Nobel Prize for chemistry. And just, we'll get into this, again, in the second and third episode. I think we, I think it should probably be a three-part series.

but um the um but just nuclear fission was that wasn't is the basis for nuclear reactors as well as nuclear weapons okay um it makes all those things pot not just possible but conceivable okay um interestingly um interestingly during world war one because uh hans a little bit older he served with a landver regiment which you know in the kaiser's um in the kaiser rike was like a a reserve regiment generally consistent like it was kind of like the home guard or like what the british used called the territorial army but uh he actually was mobilized and deployed um and uh he was uh he was attached to a chemical weapons unit um chemical warfare unit headed by fritz hobber on the western front eastern front and italian front um he was in

heavy action he he was awarded the the iron cross second class um so i mean he why do i raise this specifically it's not just because it's not just because it's interesting trivia but um it uh i'm trying to demonstrate the aspect of han's character han was not averse to the you know applying science in um in uh in uh in military endeavors okay including the somewhat horrible endeavor of chemical warfare all right this becomes an issue later on as to what Han's view was of, you know,

applying nuclear fission to weapons development. And plus it's just interesting background. And there's, I believe there's very much I believe there's very much a natural progression conceptually, okay,

from chemical warfare to nuclear warfare. And I, I mean, it's arguable, but I think it's important. And I think people, people understand, people who understand institutional thinking and the men who popularize institutions and the way they kind of, the paradigms that they play with, as it were, I think that it's somewhat inarguable. But this kind of thing was very much on, on the minds of, of European physicists, okay? The concrete engineering of what became the atomic bomb wasn't and we'll get into why that was but uh it's um like i said there's this like mythology there's this punitive mythology that it's that both somehow simultaneously the germans

were idiots who had no idea how to um apply uh what's called the new physics to war fighting and the engineering of weapons but in other hand they were like these maniacs hell-bent on on developing an atomic bomb and you know only only only only these like only only only this like you know genius ashtonism like you know we're able to save the day and of course like Einstein is the father of nuclear physics and and Oppenheimer is the fire of the atomic bomb that's total nonsense okay um and that's not a partisan take it's an arguable for uh those who i'm sure are gonna send me hate messages about it that's just not true it's like well i can you know it i can source all of these claims um the uh let's jump

to the end of the war because I think Irving's book, The Virus House, as well as, which is a source I rely on tremendously. It's the best book on the German atomic bomb. There's also a book by, of not by, it's about Edmund Teller. And the narrative kind of begins on the date of the Hiroshima attack. because that's really people don't realize the degree to which the Manhattan Project

truly was secret and the attack did shock the world it's rather amazing the degree to which the Manhattan Project was able to maintain operational security but I say let's start there

for a few reasons as will become evident it's the point at which the world was quite literally introduced to the atomic bomb, including a coterie of German scientists who had been taken prisoner by MI6 and squirled off to the United Kingdom. So August 6, 1945, the BBC Home Service, they broadcast the first news that an atomic bomb had been dropped in Hiroshima. The bullet announced that the bomb in question contained as much explosive power as 2,000 of the RAF's 10-ton bombs. President Truman had declared that the Germans had worked feverishly to find a way to use atomic energy, but it failed.

Now, at a premise it's called Farm Hall, this was a country house near Huntington in England. A coterie of German physicists were being held prisoner there. Incident was what was called Operation Epsilon. Operation Epsilon was the code name for this endeavor that took place in May 1st and June 30th, 1945, whereby the Allies identified 10 German scientists who were believed we've worked on the German atomic bomb program. And these men were they were captured and they were, again, they were. scrolled away to England and detained in this kind of mansion house near Cambridge called Farm Hall. Okay. The proximity to the university is not an accident either because it was a weird kind of incarceration that these guys endured.

Because on the one hand, it was very punitive. And the other hand, you know, if you wanted these men to speak, you know, London wanted these men to speak to, you know, their own academics. about the, you know, about the bomb and things. And if you're, and if you're just, you know, kind of like treating people, like, forcing them to live, you know, like, you know, like abject in squal or whatever, or, you know, or abject prisoners in the traditional sense that that wouldn't have happened. So, I mean, it's, um, it kind of reminds me of the early days of, like, Spears detention, okay?

Um, although obviously, he ultimately endured true horrors as we got into in an earlier series. but um the uh the goal nominally i think this is basically true what m i 6 and um the u.s war department both claimed independently was that the goal was to determine how close the german rake had countered the development of a viable atomic bomb um first among the detainees was otohan okay um it uh and this was attested to not just by um not not just by his fellow detainees but but by his interrogators and and in the um you know in the em i six men who were guarding him and debriefing him there there was concern that han would commit suicide because he was so beside himself that this bomb had been created and he blamed himself you know um it's not uh you know that this was this was very poignant okay and i don't

This is on my mind, as I watched the Oppenheimer movie the other day, this idea that like Oppenheimer single-hannily created the atomic bomb and lived with this terrible guilt. That's ridiculous. At ESB, we're committed to communities. And through our Energy for Generations Fund, we're helping organizations like Together Academy to provide pathways into employment for young people with Down syndrome. By giving our young adults these skills, we don't just help them.

We also help the wider community as well. Every year in Ireland, we contribute over two, million euro to community projects because it's not just for us it's for future us learn more at esb. a e forward slash communities you catch them in the corner of your eye distinctive by design they move you even before you drive the new cooper plug-in hybrid range for mentor leon and terramar now with flexible pcp finance and trade-in boosters of up to two thousand euro search Cooper and discover our latest offers. Coopera.

Design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. It's not, you know, it's as if they, like, extrapolated, like, Hans' life

and mind and memories and, you know, transposed it under this kind of character. of Oppenheimer, who has some relation to the historical man, was become kind of like this, you know, this almost like mythical figure. But, um, the, uh, a major T.H. Rittner, he was the British officer in charge at Farm Hall. Um, he, he, he, he, he asked Rahan to be brought to his office immediately to make sure that his, he was stable of mind. And also, he just wanted to speak to him about, you know, what had just happened. Um, according to Ritner, Han, was horrified and again he felt personally responsible for the best of thousands of people um he told writtener han told riddner and apparently according to independent witnesses not just rittner himself um han writtener developed something of

rapport okay um during his time there um and uh Han had told Rittener, you know, on multiple occasions that he'd had forebodings about the potentialities of his discovery of nuclear fission. But he never thought that, you know, a weapon would be rapidly engineered and deployed with that kind of destructive power. Like, not because it was impossible, but we'll get into what, um, what you know he thought would give a would give the scientific community pause and other things now Who are the other detainees of Farm Hall? They were dr. Eric Baghe or Baj? Dr. Kurt Deidner A professor named Walter Gerlock

Adohan of course Paul Hartek The famous Werner Heisenberg A man named Horst Korsing a professor named Max von Lau another professor named Carl Friedrich von Weissker and Dr. Carl Wirtz. Now, the premises at Farm Hall were bugged,

everywhere it was, from the kind of common recreation area to the private court of the men. And this wasn't just incidental. One of the key purposes, of detaining the German atomic scientists was the eavesdrop on the the conversations between the men themselves now as the what the migrants picked up um as the as the news was um was uh relayed was that Heisenberg disputed the possibility that the Americans even had a bomb and dropped it like he didn't dispute that Hiroshima was destroyed.

But he believed it was some kind of conventional weapon, like some kind of muscle bound conventional weapon or series of fire bomb raids, like had been conducted over Tokyo where 100,000 people died in 24 hours. Like he thought this was propaganda.

Okay. Not because it would be impossible to create a bomb, but he, you know, the scientific community was it was a peculiar thing in the even even um you know even on the eve of hostilities um the number of men who truly understood you know the new physics and were insinuated into um you know the applied research of these things it was incredibly small fraternity okay and um men like that then kind of looked at themselves with the

exception of a certain coterie um that ended up in america they looked at themselves as being part of a community that kind of transcended politics, okay? Heisenberg, he was personally friendly with a doctor Gautzmint, who was the head of the American intelligence mission, which had debriefed him when he was initially taking prisoner. And Gautzmint was a fellow physicist, and they, Heisenberg and Gautzman knew of each other. And Heisenberg had developed like a pretty good report. him and he asked gouttsmith um whether uh whether atomic weapons research was something that the allies were um endeavoring to uh you know take on or if or if there was any you know background um

of such applied experiments you know the end goal of uh of weaponizing atomic energy and gouttsmitted him that that was not the case and i gautsmit i guarantee had no idea about the mayn hadan project he was speaking totally honestly okay um so maybe it was naivete as something you might say on the part of heisenberg thinking like that you know the kind of the kind of the kind of fraternity of pure science would mean that you know no one would know no no colleague would lie to another on such an important and like literally earthshaking matter but um that again it was different times it was different you know it was uh these guys weren't ordinary academics or scientists you know they they were like the elite of the elite of the elite um and also again like gout smit i believe was selling

the truth like he didn't know about the manhaden project you know and um plus two i mean like the it shocked everybody because like the war in europe was done like japan was utterly destroyed and couldn't even defend itself you know that's why it's like that's why there's this lame like the fed's like oh japan had to be invaded because they were just crazy and like a million Americans would have died. Like that, that's ridiculous. The bomb was deployed. These things developed their own momentum.

The bomb was going to be deployed somewhere. It had been developed to destroy Europe, which is totally insane. If you think about that, you know, like genociding your own race with nuclear weapons. But aside from that, it's, I don't think the Soviets would have stopped. You know, and, you know, they, you know, they were, they were actively, the Soviets had gone to war against Japan in the final days. You know, like, who's to say they would have abided, you know,

Truman's demands had the bombs, plural, not been deployed. But in any event, that's the rapidity to which, too, that's something to keep in mind, like the kind of the core concepts of weaponizing nuclear energy. This is really only six years old. Okay? So I believe there was something of this idea that America could just rapidly, you know, kind of develop a competency in the new physics, you know, and within basically half a decade, you know, develop a weaponized capability. Like, it seemed unlikely.

You know, it was extraordinary. and putting oneself in the shoes of Heisenberg. I mean, think about the disorientation of what he had just endured and kind of like what of the German like experience generally, like in, you know, 945, 946. And finally, too, the Americans and the British came, who, you know, in operational terms, they worked fairly closely. in the immediate aftermath of the German defeat, for practical reasons, those were political ones.

The last German uranium pile laboratory to be seized. That was the laboratory staffed by Weisker and Verz. It was actually located in the French occupation zone. And the U.S. Army, with the U.S. Army, with the U. since the British at all costs aimed to prevent radioactive material and the research data from this uranium pile laboratory from falling into French hands. Like they were singularly fixed on this, okay, and the Germans knew this. And that's how, and that's why Weisager and Verts ended up in the hands of the British and not the

French. But the reasoning, too, in Heisenberg's mind was like, okay, like if you guys have the bomb um like why why why you fixated on you know grabbing all the uranium you can and preventing it from falling into you know rival hands or whatever like it just but again too nobody nobody knew about the manhattan project other than those involved and um you know um the uh the the um the the five stars around uh truman himself um it uh Overall, the feelings of the Germans, Irving, characterized it as a sense of recrimination. They were shocked by the fanaticism of people who are not under direct, like, physical threat who would just develop, like, rapidly develop an atomic bomb. It, like, in their mind, it's, like, it indicated the kind of fanaticism that had been, like, hysterically attributed to them and the Japanese by the new dealers.

You know, it's like you guys have an ocean between the people you claim your enemies and you're like feverishly developing atomic bombs. Like, there's something frankly insane about that. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favorite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal mustabs. When the doors open, the deals go fast.

Come see for yourself. The Lidl New Bridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you, even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range. For Mentor, Leon and Teramar.

Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2,000 euro. Search Cooper and discover our latest. latest offers. Cooper. Design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria.

Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. It, uh, well, let me ask. Can they, could they really have been shocked? I mean, it, how would a Han and a Heisenberg? How up would they have been on, you know, New Deal, what the New Deal was bringing in? What, you know, what was basically going to happen where, yeah, of course, this group of people once control of the bomb.

They're megalomaniacal. Because these guys are scientists, not politicians. And again, too, we're speaking of things that happened 80 years ago and that we take for granted. like it didn't um you know and and and also i believe they thought that you know the degree to which and the degree i mean listen to listen to the listen to the hitler's december 11 1941 speech you know it's um people were people were somewhat flabbergasted that america was literally talking about making total war on europe for frankly ambiguous reasons you know what i mean then um people didn't even There was a question as to whether, you know, an atomic bomb would even work as intended.

You know, there's a fact like we addressed at the beginning of, you know, what military utility does really have outside of very narrow kind of strategic paradigms other than the fact that you can, like, kill a whole lot of people immediately. You know, and America had, Germany was in ruins. The Red Army was in Berlin. the Japanese uh Japan was literally a pile of rubble that uh was getting bomb at the stonage every day like deploying uh like launching a nuclear attack on like a ruined country under those conditions that's somewhat shocking um you know I mean even even if one understands the character of the men in control of the enterprise so yeah I don't make I don't I don't think he was like feigning putting on errors or something um

And like I said, too, these were the guys who actually made this possible. It wasn't Oppenheimer. It wasn't Einstein. You know, it wasn't Enrico Fermi. You know, it was these guys, you know, and it's, I mean, there's something, you know, yeah, it's a trope that scientists are naive, but it's also kind of true. It's certainly true here. I mean, like I said, who are these guys faking it to? Like, they, you know, they had, they weren't.

And like none of these guys were national socialist. It's not like they were going out to like, it's not like they were pulling a garing and saying, like, I've got to protect the historical record and, you know, wrong foot my enemies. Like that didn't even feature into the equation. You know, like Heisenberg was a national socialist.

Han actually, like, was at odds with the regime. Not because he was some liberal, but he just, he just didn't like national socialism. And he didn't, you know, he was, he wasn't a guy who was willing to, unlike Van Braun, and was, you know, willing to go along

and be pragmatic, you know, These guys were, you know, but Von Braun was a, was basically like a, you know, a mechanical engineer and like an aviation prodigy. You know, like he wasn't, that's a different, like theoretical physics is a weird thing. And it's like, it's, it's, it's very, it's, it's like both concrete and abstract and it, it tends to, it tends to attract kind of, you know, dreamy hyper intellectual personalities and stuff. so no i don't i don't think there's anything fake about it but um the uh han uh han uh honda described um and people and independent witnesses attested to this like people had been with him when he was first uh when he had his first breakthroughs in his you know fishing research um the potentiality or the implications rather it wasn't clear what the concrete potential was of uranium

efficient discovery he said that considering that war was obviously imminent he contemplated seizing as much uranium as possible the majority of which in europe was in belgium and literally throwing it into the sea or otherwise hiding it um to ward off some kind of catastrophe, you know, resulting from one of the combatant states attempting to weaponize it. And then he realized that's not practicable and also, you know, but I mean, I, you know, that's that, that's, that's, that's, that's the core, that's the cost of the core of your question. Like, Han had those kinds of thoughts because that in his mind, that's what any remotely kind of, kind of like morally. Anybody with remotely normal, like moral constitution would have those kinds of thoughts. Like he wouldn't just like, you know, there's something wrong here with the Americans and British.

It's like putting up huge factories and like feverishly like, you know, producing pure uranium. Like without question because like, you know, and it's like why? Like was, was the Red Army storming across America? It was like, no. I mean, was with a Japanese threatening America? Like, no. I mean, like there's something there's something that's seemingly about it. You know, and like, it's not, I, I, I, I totally understand what he's getting at, or was getting at.

And I'm not at all some peace, Nick. In fact, like, at scale on these questions, I think I'm pretty callous, okay? At least that's what I'm told. The, interestingly, caution, what he stated in the course of this conversation with his fellow detainees after the broad that, you know, Hiroshima had been destroyed. What he said and what he, and what he reiterated later was that, um, the level of cooperation, um, you know, um, under military auspices, obviously that facilitated the Manhattan project, um, that would have been impossible in Germany. Um, you know, he made the point, he's like, he's like, you know, if the men in the room, he's like, you know, if the men in the he's like some of us didn't wouldn't have wanted to do it on principle but uh he's like even if we had you know there would have there would have been different ideas on on on how to proceed with this and there would have been different ideas on you know managing outcomes potentially you know and like

and trying to like build in you know safeguards into the into the structure itself or you know there would have been there would have been resentments from you know taking orders from party men you know And that's your point, yeah, that's the subtext of what he said, of what coarsing said, is that these men who worked on that Manhattan Project, they were, they were like absolute fanatics. Like, they were, you know, they were, they were frankly crazy. And that, yeah, that goes without saying, especially you consider the confessional background and motives and things of these men, in America, I mean. But it, um, the, uh, now what, what was the background,

here of just going to introduce the background of what if any understanding of the weapons potential of Han's experiments existed. On April 29, 1939, this was

kind of when the world became aware of the potential, of some kind of potential, potentially, you know, game-changing of of the new physics. Hans' experiments have been widely publicized, obviously, throughout Europe. And there's a French professor named Frederick Jolo, or Jolouille.

He was the son-in-law of Madame Curry. He reproduced Hans' experiments meticulously. and he and his team they were confirmed like it was confirmed that like Han was what he had stated to have proven as regards among other things the existence in neutrons

and the process of uranium efficient in their situation like that it was signed off on his yes this is legitimate um no no letter to Nature magazine which in those days was like a leading kind of like it was a combination like kind of like pop science stuff but also like major scientific discoveries that's where they would be featured in which it mentally sounds weird today but i mean that's the way things were you know it's um um this french team led by jealoyte um their letter was titled quote liberation of neutrons and the nuclear explosion of uranium

um and uh essentially that was sort of like the first kind of like public declaration of uh you know nuclear fission having like tremendous weaponous potential um but i emphasize potential you know it there was nothing there's nothing there's nothing demascibly proven here But uh...

You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive. By design. They move you. Even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range for Mentor, Leon and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade in boosters of up to 2000 euro. Search Coopera and discover our latest offers.

Coopera, design that moves. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings? Well, mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back.

We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items, all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. What this led to was in the next few days in Gothen, which is a renowned university town, or at least it was then in Germany. at the physics colloquium, a guy named

Valhelm Hanley, who was, he didn't know Han, but he was like a protege of him because, like, you know, he was an up-and-coming physicist. You know, everybody, you know, he was kind of the, he was kind of like the grand old man, everybody looked to. He read a short paper on,

what he called the uranium burning engine. I mean, we was talking about as a nuclear reactor, okay? And that, like, little paper by this guy, the trajectory of German atomic research was basically

going towards nuclear reactors. You know, the idea of, like, or like a uranium burning engine, okay? You know, like an endless energy source. And that, frankly, that would have solved what became Germany's quagmire militarily in part. more so than an atomic bomb would.

And that's a really interesting counterfactual. But that, and amidst all of this kind of excitement, you know, it's got to be said despite the impression people have. I mean, not just court historians, even people who, you know, are more kind of critical in their thinking about historical topics. There's this idea that the German Reich was almost, some kind of like rightest mirror of the Soviet Union. It's not true at all. You know, like the National Socialist Party, it was literally elected. Hitler himself by the Enabling Act and by various referendums, he had tremendous power, but even that wasn't really unprecedented. You know, like the Reich president had literally like extra constitutional authority as he saw fit. But,

you know, the German state and the National Socialist Party were discreet. entities and it um it there were there was tension there like structurally you know and there was even beyond that even uh it wasn't it wasn't um it wasn't simply because there's plenty of professors who weren't national socialists even the guys who were basically sympathetic like they didn't want the government messing in their affairs you know like these were not just guys who you know owed their oh their um careers and prestige to you know something the Berlin government had done for them, you know, and they also, they didn't want to be ordered to work with other people, you know, like they, that they didn't feel comfortable with or didn't,

you know, respect or whatever. It was like very provincial, kind of like very ego driven, but also just very, you know, I mean, that's the nature of acadine, you know, and that's, that's, and especially, you know, especially the, especially the hard sciences and especially what was then called the new physics, which was literally like the cutting edge of, of, of a scientific endeavor, you know, I mean it's um it was like trying to herd cats you know this this idea that you know this idea that the rike was like just some party state is there's nonsense it has this idea that like germans like you know some prussian some prussian officer type just like snaps his fingers and then like the crowds all like you know do what they're told like that's that's nonsense too like um

um it was uh you know it's it's it was um it was uh it was uh it was a it was a it was a it was a it was a it was a it was a was highly chaotic you know um this uh the subsequent conference um that was a that that was arranged based on all these um based on all these you know kind of findings and confirmed um confirmed um and confirmed research um it ultimately was uh held in secrecy at uh at um in Berlin at a building on the Winter then Linden. The and this was when the war department got very interested in what was going on. The the war office as well as Reich ministries attached to it

actually are just kind of like practically because they were in the same orbit or had overlapping spheres of authority. We had in a very short space of time in 1939 had begun their own uranium research program. It was low-key. It was basically, you know, corraling data that had already been produced, you know, in France and in the German Reich. you know, I'm kind of running a comparative analysis and again, like, duplicating some of these experiments to make sure that, you know, this was in fact, the results were what they purported to be. And this led to a Hamburg professor named Paul Hartek and his assistant, a guy named Dr. Wilhelm McGrath. they'd written a letter to the war office

just before the Berlin Conference and about 10 days after the publication of the Paris of the French physicist letter of Nature magazine and this letter was cited again and again and again by American New Dealer Media

as well as like OSS types all in sundry the letter stated quote and so the letter of the war office, okay, by this by this Hamburg professor. It said, quote, we take the liberty of calling your attention to the newest development in nuclear physics, which in our opinion will probably make it possible to produce an explosive, many orders of magnitude more powerful than the conventional ones. That wasn't really a groundbreaking statement. I mean, yeah, people speculated that that was true. And obviously what was right into the statement was,

was that this was some sort of a this was some sort of like you know low key almost kind of hidden communication between German scientific academia and the war office saying like look like this is not only possible this is you know essential we've got to beat the allies the punch and you know pursue this course of research

essentially like take this letter to the furor and the armist ministry and like let's make it happen there's no evidence that that's what this letter are indicated. Okay. And frankly, like, if that's what it was, like, why wouldn't open a letter be written? You know, like, it's not really, all things are done. But, you know, so I think some of what is argued around these, um, these, um, these surviving kind of statements, um, might say surviving, I mean, you know, like a literal letter form, uh, I think some of it is in bad faith. Um, the, uh, you know, and again, the, um, something

the letter concluded with quote the country that makes first use of unsurpassable advantage over the others I believe what he meant by it is just nuclear fission generally and again the trajectory of this kind of research was towards nuclear reactors okay or uranium burning

engine I believe that's what they were getting at and which is true okay I mean any anybody who found a way to utilize atomic energy for an industrial military purpose like yeah obviously like first use compares a massive advantage but

I don't read it as being like again some kind of secret agreement you know to pursue atomic weapons research in concert and I don't read that final sentence as a statement to the effect of, you know, we have got to develop and deploy atomic bombs as soon as possible. It's not, in context, that's not what it means. And I'm not playing lawyer ball at all.

And frankly, too, it's a bit outside the scope, but the course of German scientific research, not just relating to the new physics, but even in conventional engineering and other things, it makes sense that a nuclear reactor would kind of be the, would kind of be the holy graze. of German research, or that makes any sense. And again, that would have alleviated not just emergent exigencies in the Second World War, but, you know, problems that had compromised Germany's operational effectiveness and its ability to survive protracted wars generally, okay? I mean, in the preceding, you know, millennia, what have you.

But that, the reaction in London was especially kind of severe. to the French physicist letter, you know, the Nature Magazine letter. You catch them in the corner of your eye. Distinctive, by design. They move you. Even before you drive. The new Cooper plugin hybrid range.

For Mentor, Leon, and Terramar. Now with flexible PCP finance and trade-in boosters of up to 2000 euro, search Coopera and discover our latest offers. Cooper. Design that move. Finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Subject to lending criteria. Terms and conditions apply.

Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings? We'll mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking thousands of your favourite Liddle items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-habs, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself.

The Lidl New Bridge Warehouse Sale, 28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. The British press went, you know, just like as they did, subsequently, when insinuating Mr. Churchill into office, they undertook this like full-core press full of lowered accounts of a new, quote, super bomb

based on uranium fissure. And that was being developed in Germany. you know like they they just presented this as a foregone conclusion as a fact you know the um four days after the letter appeared um both the british treasury and the foreign office were approached uh by sir henry tizzard he was chairman of the committee on the scientific survey of air defense which had outsized power as did pretty much every everything related to the air ministry. I think we talked about that in our Churchill series. He said that in the uncertain terms,

Britain should take preemptive action to deny large sources of uranium to the Germans. And as I stated, the largest stockpile of uranium in Europe was in Belgium. And there's a sizable industry for extracting radium from uranium

from uranium ore's imported from the Belgian Congo as well. So like in Belgium, you didn't just have, you know, like the raw storage of uranium. There was like the infrastructure to, you know, process it in basic ways to make it Utah. So essentially what Tissard was suggesting or demanding perhaps was a, you know, that Britain find a way to, you know, wage war. on the continent and capture whatever uranium belgium had um you know with hostility um which operationally obviously there was that was not going to happen but the fact that this was well within their contemplation and um i don't think this was just propaganda in the case of the

uk i think they probably actually believe this i mean obviously their conceptual horizon was totally corrupted by this kind of hysterical idea of you know germany is our enemy but um within the bound of rationality of that that paradigm i think they actually did believe that um um a fission bomb was was was was at that moment possible um and that's kind of a fascinating uh that this kind of a there's a that's like frederic foresight stuff but in real life man i think that's kind of fascinating and there's many many intrigues uh really like espionage and stuff and and what have you that uh like around around that um but um i uh i uh i'm uh i'm uh i'm gonna stop here um and uh second episode uh i think we'll have to go a little bit longer and um i want to get into the uh i want to get into with the actual virus house um which

is the title of the book which was the dedicated research facility um for the german atomic bomb such that it could be said to have existed as a dedicated program. And then in the third episode, we'll deal with kind of like the aftermath and things to that nature. If that sounds good. Are you

going to address the popular conception that the furor was adamant about getting a bomb and that the scientists were working against him? Yeah, and I think it's basically

like Heisenberg said and some of his colleagues said, when he said that, you know, we didn't really want to develop a bomb, he was talking in terms of like personal conscience, not like the hell with Hitler and let's sabotage the war efforts. It was that if, you know, if they'd been ordered in a formal capacity, or if the atomic program had been like the rocket program and under direct military authority, you know, that they would have resisted that because,

you know the unpredictability of outcomes and just kind of like the in their mind like the naked immorality of of just unleashing that much power um when not you know necessary for you know in a matter of existential survival i think that's uh i mean that's the way to understand it but people want people want to rehabilitate heisenberg and i mean they should like no german needs to be called rehabilitated but in their mind they want to think of heisenberg and and han is you know good guys so they like exaggerate the degree to which you know these men had um some kind of a ideological objection to fascism um but yeah we'll get into that um we'll start with just like a brief understanding of what uranium is i'm very much a layman okay so i mean like i i'm not suggesting

i'm not being pedantic like i when i started reading about this topic like i had to read up on uranium so like we'll take like 10 billion minutes next episode and like learn about our friend uranian and then we'll get into um you know uh we'll get into um the uh the views of the war ministry you know contra the new dealer war department you know and um and the kind of lack of uh convergence respectively of uh of a common um understanding of the military potential of atomic weapons and um you know like I said, I want to get into like the motivations of why America developed a bomb and, you know, that's a complicated topic. But yeah, we'll try to wrap it up in three episodes. All right. Do plugs and we'll end this.

Yeah. You can still find me on Twitter, which I guess now is X or whatever, like formerly Burbap, capital R-E-A-L underscore number seven, H-MAS. 777. You can always find me on Substack, which is my primary platform. It's real R-A-E-E-L underscore Thomas-777.com. You can always find me on my website, number 7-H-MAS-777.com. I'm preparing season two of the Mind Phaser podcast, and as well as I'm going to Utah in a couple weeks to film the first dedicated episode of Thomas TV on the channel.

My YouTube channel is Thomas TV. Number 7H on the AES TV. So exciting things are afoot. In addition to like this, you know, Pete and Keith Woods and other fellows are nice enough to host me and, you know, like be looking out for that stuff too. But yeah, that's all I got. Thank you. Until the next time.

Yeah, thank you, man. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekignana show. Part two on what I'm calling the German bomb series, little mini series with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas? And where are we going today? I want to continue kind of with, you know, the background of, you know, what the state of what was called the new physics was in the lead up to the Second World War, especially because as we touched on, more than touched on, as we got into, but not completely last time, there's this idea very much reinforced by the Oppenheimer film, which in some ways I thought was a good film.

In other ways, I thought it was not a good film at all. I mean, well, we can get into that maybe when it's more apropos. But there's this narrative that there's this narrative that there was. was this kind of mad race. There's one or two narratives. It's either that there was this race by all major powers to weaponize atomic energy. And feverously, you know, at Cambridge, University of Chicago, at University of Berlin, you know, presumably somewhere in the Soviet Union, you know, this was all going on. And, you know, this desperate race was, proverbially speaking, was won, you know, by the Manhattan Project team. That's not true at all. Nothing like that was afoot.

the other the other the other the other kind of a narrative is that you know the Einstein memo was born of some kind of secret knowledge Einstein presumably had or that he had gleaned you know from the kind of German fraternity as it were of of you know researchers in the new physics that you know Heisenberg presumably was you know had had come to end the knowledge presumably you know presumably you know borrowing from Fermi's concrete experiments that, you know, uranium could be weaponized into a, into a super bomb. So Einstein desperately, you know, contacted, you know, people he knew and then close to the New Deal regime, you know, including people he talked about in another series, you know, on the board of Jewish deputies, the American Jewish committee. They put him in touch with Sacks, you know, Einstein, or I said, Roosevelt's Wall Street man, who then said, oh my God, you know, this is, you know, there's like some corny movie plot. like, you know, this evil Nazi regime is, you know, months away from this super weapon. You know, we've got to alert Mr. Roosevelt immediately. Like, that's ridiculous. I mean, aside from the, aside of many, like, value judgments they were in about.

Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i. 4.Nor slash northwest. Employers, rewarding your staff? Why choose between a shop voucher or a spend anywhere card,

when with options card you can have both. With options card, your team gets the best of both worlds. They can spend with Ireland's favorite retailers or choose a spend anywhere card. It's simple to buy and easy to manage. There are no hidden fees, it's easy to use, and totally flexible. They can even re-gift or donate to a good cause. Make your awards more rewarding.

Visit optionscard.i.e. today. The combative regimes, like this was not underway at all. Like we talked about last time, literally on the eve of war in 1939, the best minds in Germany. First of all, there was no organization here, like the war office, which itself was kind of a hodgepodge of academics,

you know, like bureaucratic administrators, you know, like partymen, like guys, you know, like military men, at least in liaison capacity, you know, who had some idea that, you know, that there's a, you know, that there's some kind of applied potential to atomic physics, but the direction they were going

was what we consider to be, you know, conceptualizing what I mean was to a crude nuclear reactor. Okay? That did change somewhat as time went on, but there was never, not only was there never a Third Reich version of the main

had an project underway, but that wasn't even within anybody's contemplation and nor was the kind of organization in place to do that. You know, I mean, anybody will tell you, when you're talking about academics, especially men at the top of their field in some kind of experimental science, trying to organize these people in a dedicated capacity is like hurting cats, number one.

Number two, you know, the Third Reich was really a, the Third Reich, unlike the Soviet Union, and frankly, unlike the New Dealer United States, it was a, you know, It was this kind of like competing off and hostile, like, fiefdoms of authority and these factions who really didn't like each other who were kind of only bound by, like, faith in the furor, you know, like, as just kind of like messianic personage. I don't mean that in crude terms. They're in overly praising terms. It's just the reality. Okay. So, like, people have this kind of mistaken idea, you know, like we talked about before, of the Third Reich is kind of like this, like, fascistoid, like, version of the Soviet Union.

And we're like from the top down, just everything was, you know, corralled into the service of the state and its military needs. Like, that wasn't the case at all. And that that's one of the things that, you know, the catalyst for Gerbil's total, was going to be known as the total war speech. The catalyst for that was he was making the case, like, basically, like, begging a lot of some of the patrons of the party. Like, look, like put aside your differences.

We have to mobilize completely, you know, if we're going to survive. even by that point i mean the die was cast you know so it but be that as it may um i'll also say finally then we'll get into the meat of this there this idea in america and i think i mean even among restorations with a critical eye and even with some people who have military knowledge either their direct experience or based on their theoretical you know endeavors there's this idea that nuclear weapons is kind of like this trump card you know or that you know like thomas schelling said and in the context he said it was correct that they're just like any other weapons except only to command and control nuances you know and the computerization of decision

making at key junctures and the destructive power of them you know they're just capable of implementing far, far more attrition, far quicker than conventional weapons. And that is the correct way to think about them in conditions of bipolarity as regards as a political map and general parity in terms of strategic forces in being. In a military situation, such as the world of 1939 or even of 1943, 44, it's not clear how an atomic bomb would have helped Germany. I mean, Germany could have annihilated the UK. And, I mean, yeah, that would have helped. I mean, in terms of obviously, it could no longer be utilized as, you know,

US Army Air Corps and Royal Air Force is unsinkable aircraft carrier from which to, you know, strategically bombed Germany with massive conventional loads. But, you know, the path of victory in World War II for Germany is the conquest of the Soviet Union. You know, Moscow has to fall in 94. And thereby, you know, Germany becomes a superpower. You know, it captures the Central Asian World Island, if you want to use McKinder's language. Okay. Just, you know, atomic bombing Moscow and killing, you know, 10 million Russians.

Well, I mean, the third right killed 10 million Russians. I mean, did that win the war? You know, like I think it was Ahmadinejad. It was an interesting guy. He was at least more, I mean, he was at least most interesting Iranian ahead of state since Khomeini. You know, he made the point when kind of Netanyahu was as most kind of histrionic, you know, was freaking that everybody is developing a bomb. You know, all Israel's enemies are are developing the bomb.

You know, it's like, did nuclear weapons help the Soviet Union? You know, like when the Soviet Union went down, not with a bang, what a whimper, I think it had, I think it had something like 12,000 warheads. You know, that could be married to launch vehicles and deployed, you know, as like strategically, you know, like intercontinately, you know, or at least like within theater, you know, over intermediate distance. I mean, it's like this idea like nuclear weapon is just, you know, you like own, you own your enemy, like in proverbial or actual terms.

You just own the battle space. like that that doesn't make any sense you know in the case of america obviously i mean america just had to devastate germany and japan you know like and it could and then and then america gets the planet you know but i mean nobody else was in that situation you know um ironically in a totally counterfactual scenario there were like a nuclear armed japan like that actually like japan could have extorted a lot of concessions if they had nuclear atomic bombs or something comparable. I've thought about that.

And not, I think not incidentally, that's why they were so fixated on a biological weapons program. You know, and like the father of modern bio-warfare is Shiroishi, and he got poached immediately by U.S. occupation forces and delivered the war department, soon to be the Defense Department, and ended up actually teaching at Berkeley of all places. you know, as, like, in this kind of role of civilian role as, like, this in old age, as like this unassuming, like, biologists.

But he, he was a, he was a, he was a war master of bioweapons, okay? That's something of a tangent. But in any event, all these things are important. They're not, they're not just speculative, you know, sort of, counterfactuals that are fun to play with. as we uh i think we finished last time with the the letter the the letter by the french physicist to nature magazine you know which discussed the potential of of you know um some kind of of some kind of military application of of uranium you know and reactions from uranium if uh you know

the the isotope uh needed could be you know cultivated, okay, and this really, this caused, the same cause a stir in the scientific community would be a gross understatement. But the response, essentially by the Germans, was a guy named Abraham Esau. He was chairman of the quote, Reich Bureau of Standards, what translates to the Reich Bureau of Standards and Education. Specifically, the physical sciences was its, you know, a domain of authority. and kind of keeping, you know, such that the universities could be corralled into a directly military role. It was, you know, this was kind of like this. This was kind of like the party's way of not just keeping tabs on these things, but trying,

but, you know, we're trying to direct such potential as it emerged in a constructive capacity. But, of course, again, we're talking about, you know, literally cutting edge. theoretical physics here like you can't pick and choose like who you want to staff these things you need people actually understand the damn thing in question you need and beyond any people are competent it's like esau he wasn't any kind of like national socialist or party man but he was basically patriotic um he uh he'd been uh he'd been a leading authority on high frequency electronics um he'd been an academic physicist for most of his career but he was politically active again he was

He wasn't any kind of like party loyalist, but he had followed kind of the ascendancy of nationalism in Germany and he was like definitely behind it, you know, at least. And like, but frankly, I mean, like Patriotic Germans generally were, you know. But he, uh, he was excited at, you know, kind of nuclear physics being brought within his, you know, kind of pernumbra of authority. If you want to look it that way. And, um, he convened a conference. I think we mentioned the Jenna conference. On the many nights of Christmas, the Guinness Storehouse brings to thee Christmas nights at gravity. This Christmas, enjoy a truly unique night out at the Gravity Bar. Savour festive bites from Big Fan Bell, expertly crafted seasonal cocktails, and dance the night away with DJs from love tempo.

Brett take infuse, amazing atmosphere, incredible food and drink. My goodness, it's Christmas at the Guinness Storehouse. Book now at giddlestorhouse.com. Get the facts be drink aware, visit drink aware. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more

at airgrid.e. 4.n. Northwest. Which was directly convened in response, you know, to the announcement by the French researchers on their applied experiments. On his short, last course, was, you know, Atoe Han, Han was unable to attend because he was engaged otherwise in Sweden. professor a guy named professor joseph mattock um from vienna uh was uh was was deputized and in favor of his

you know regular assistant lisa mightner who was also in sweden you know with the man himself to like to speak for him or like sit in for him the conference took place in you know relative to see racy april 29th nineteen thirty nine at the ministry of education building as we talked about um the uh doctor uh dr doms who's the head of the ministry's research department he vocally attacked han in absentia for publishing you know his vital discovery what he perceived is like his vital discovery you know to the scientific to the wider scientific community um when that's not the way science works okay unless you're i mean if head had this been two years later, you know, and had Germany been actively at war, I think that case could be made.

But even then, again, this was not the Manhattan Project. Nobody had, nobody among this coterie of new physicists in Germany or Austria had an idea that, you know, this is in military technology. I mean, beyond the fact that, excuse me, I'm sorry, beyond the fact that, you know, any kind of, any kind of applied technology where you're talking about a truly renewable energy source that theoretically at least, you know, is essentially inexhaustible. I mean, yeah, obviously there's military implications to that. Just say there's military implications to everything else. But that's, but that was, that that would have been like saying, you know, that, you know, that would have been like saying, you know, that would have been like saying, that, you know, aviation should have been kept secret, you know, as it was under, as, um, you know, as trials were underway in America to, you know, perfect a truly viable aircraft, but American

elsewhere. But the, uh, but, uh, Mattalk took up, uh, he went to bed very much on Han's behalf and he, uh, he basically cowed the committee into silence, you know, things were not, we're not a military. This is not a military, this is not a, this is not, neither a party nor a military, um, you know, conference, you know, we're not, we're not under your authority or anybody else's, you know, basically like, how dare you insult the man who's, you know, basically changed the world by his research and discoveries. And that honestly set the tenor, man, like, not just in the genoc conference, but moving onward again. Like, something like I just described, never could have happened in the Soviet Union. Like, no matter what, no matter what the technology

under discussion was, even if it was a purely speculative, technology at that at that juncture you know so it's there is there is more of uh you know i say this is important not just because i've got you know peculiar fixations as a as a researcher but you know it's it's it's important to you know developing a a properly characteristic view of the german rike and its internal situation you know this is not a place where scientists were cowed by the party or by the regime. You know, there certainly were, as always, representative of officialdom. We tried to throw their weight around, but they were not in the driver's seat here at all for a lot of reasons. Um, the, uh, basically the long story short, um, in addition to a lot of theoretical postulates,

unrelated directly, you know, to the subject at hand, which I have no understanding of because I'm no physicist at all. Um, I'm not even like an educated of layman in physics. okay and first admit that but um to uh the kind of highlight of the event if you want to look at in those terms two gottingen professors uh got him juice and again hanley they'd they'd outline once again i mean not them once again um as it was on the mind of every man present you know a uh the practical ability of of a quote uranium burner okay i mean this was again this was such that there could be said to be a sort of priority afforded to any conceptual model. I mean, this was it, okay?

And again, that obviously has tremendous military application, but not in the way that was being bandied by, you know, people like Einstein later on. and also by some people, particularly in MI6, and later on OSS. And the case of the former, it's interesting, and we'll get into that. I don't want to jump too far ahead. We'll get into the take from London, or the view from London, on the potentiality of an atomic bomb. But in any event, the,

there'd been a general ban placed on the export of uranium compounds from Germany. And the Reich Ministry of Economics was, they were adjusting, well, they were trying to determine, like, there was recently captured mines in Czechoslovakia. I cannot pronounce Yakima. Yakimov, if anybody on deck, like in the comments, I'm sorry if I'm butchering that. I'm first to admit I'm terrible with these pronunciations, but central Europe is rich in uranium war, okay, like natural uranium war. this this hadn't been mined yet but it you know had been accessed in some basic capacity but

you know who basically who was going to get get it first like hadn't been decided you know was it just going to be squirled away and given to the you know given to the okayW to basically sit on so nobody else could have it you know was it was it going to be given to um you know this to what was basically going to be given like you know the the burgeoning kind of committee that uh or the burgeoning on a quorum that attended the conference at jenna like what what would become of it um but it uh what they had allowed was a uranium sample had had been dispatched to gotthogen for special analysis and um the the special analyst uh who was uh dispatched, you know, to essentially to report his findings was a guy from the war office,

okay? And what was not known to the attendees of the Jenna conference and was not probably known to really anybody. The right chancery, I'm sure that there was some line of communication there. And Hitler himself, I speculate, and again, this is pure speculation, probably knew just because he was so hands-on in terms of weapons development and things like that. The war of his head begun its own uranium research program. But again, you know, it's if they were developing a bomb

and if this was like the raison d'etra of it, you know, like why were they appealing to civilians at all? You know, I mean, because that would presume the knowledge, that would presume not just the, the conceptual basis for such a program, but the knowledge in order to implement it as well as the political will. And it's just not, you know, it depicts, what develops here is a, I think, a disputable picture of, you know, basically everybody, everybody within the party administration, who had an understanding, you know, who's realistic about, you know, the, the fact that, you know, inevitably, like, a war was going to emerge between, you know, the Third Reich and the Soviet Union. Anybody in the scientific community, you know, who was at all engaged, you know, with the reality of national politics at the time, um, and anybody who, uh, you know, had, uh, had been paying attention, you know, to, to the new physics with any, with any sort of understanding of it, beyond that of a layman, like, understood.

that there was some kind of like great applied potential for this but that might not be emergent for 20 years you know it might it you know it it might never be fully realized but again too like it wasn't clear what that was and such that there was any kind of like agreement in these like very kind of crude conceptual terms in germany it was uh as you know it was basically as like this is an energy source that's when we change the world you know it was not like this is this is how we built super bombs Employers, did you know you can now reward you and your staff with up to 1500 euro and gift cards annually

completely tax-free and even better you can spread it over five different occasions now is the perfect time to try OptionsCard OptionsCard is Ireland's brand new multi-choice employee gift card packed with unique features that your staff will love

it's simple to buy, easy to manage and best of all, there are no extra fees or hidden catches Visit Optionscar.I.E. Today. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November.

Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest. You know, and interestingly, but such that the United Kingdom had a view of this. After the chairman of a Belgian mining concern, he got wind of,

the situation in chicoslovakia with respect to uranium um a uh a guy named m edgar singier uh he was president of the belgian mining concern uh union miniere okay i think that's how you pronounced it um he contacted a guy named tisard who was chairman of the committee on the scientific survey of air defense in London. Okay. And when he did, the outcome of their meeting was basically Tazar, he was unwilling to

provide the funds or the authority for Cingier to to purchase all available uranium stocks. Which there were several thousand tons in Belgium and far more available on the open market that had been extricated.

from shakolovakia or extracted you know before the before the um before the country fell apart and uh you know what have you and became came under the dominion of the rike but uh you know it uh the fact was i mean it this was not it was um the uk was very much by this point um this was uh may of 939 you know, they were shifting to a war footing, you know, I mean, it can't be argued that this was, you know, oh, you know, the climate of appeasement was ruling and nobody, you know, realized, you know, the danger that way ahead. If you want to take that kind of court, historians view, I mean, that they can't be argued, okay? The, um, the, uh, what Tazar did say is that, uh, if some kind of mass of, uh, uh, if some kind of mass of, uh, uh, uranium reserves or at least that which was then available on the open market if the bulk of that should fall into enemy hands he said that that may be something that you know that that could be catastrophic and strategic terms but i mean it wasn't it wasn't clear what that was you know it's like it was basically that you know we hear that you know the crowds want it so we don't want you know

because they want it we want them to not have it you know but we don't want it either because it may be nothing you know um the uh the admiral basically this tisard like took this to the admiralty which you know in in the UK then as I assume now even always said always had outsized clout in terms of like war and peace questions um they said that you know they said that uh you know, not only to win out of the funds they gamble with on this, like literally, but it said the possibility of developing a quote explosive of unprecedented power from uranium was so remote as to be negligible. So again, this was like science fiction, okay?

It kind of reminds me of if you keep up with, I don't know if anybody does, but I, and maybe they've moved on from this kind of fixation, but like some years back, you know, if you picked up parameters, you know, like the US Army War College magazine, or read these, speaking of the Brits, read some of these like Royal Navy publications. There was talking about like rail guns and these kinds of like super guns that we're going to, that were primarily going to be based on, you know, there's basically going to be like some kind of new like quasi-surface warfare platform that's just going to like change everything.

You know, it was a lot of, I mean, then is now like, I mean, now it's more, you know, guys kind of trying to rationalize, well, already bloated budgets and stuff. but there's always there's always there's always generals and admirals as well as civilian analysts and intelligence men you know like like sounding alarm bells about about some future you know like super weapon you know this was not like it this was not something new okay um yeah i mean the 20th century was remarkable in terms of the punctuated the punctuated equilibrium as so to speak of you know scientific advancement by by leaps and bounds but it the this this idea that you know there was a firm understanding of the potential of uranium that and that you know this somehow would you know absolutely make you know germany its strategic situation as it was in any thirty nine you know the master of the world like that's that's ridiculous um g p thompson had an interesting take uh he was a he was he was a leading british physicist perhaps

perhaps the leading physicist who was close to uh you know the like not just the war party as it as it were but to uh you know military circles and uh both intelligence and the admiralty he said uh you know it's highly he said he said the germans are probably more afraid of us um developing some uranium based technology you know is is then we are of them and uh he suggested a he suggested a disinfo campaign indicating that the british had in fact tested uranium bombs of of unprecedented force you know so potent that the authorities had you know stopped uh stop testing of them for fear of compromising the uh compromising the uh the program completely you know um

it Churchill himself he said that any talk of uh it reminds you like Churchill was like something of a technology I mean on the one hand he's like Pans of the Luddite

I mean which he was um and he and he he was a disaster as a as a commander in chief but he did have like a fetish for like Wartek you know it'll be not an informed way but his view was

uh the same He said that like any, any German talk of a quote super bomb is pure bluff. You know, he's like, you know, this is ridiculous. Like, nothing like this. There's no indicators. There's no kind of any indicators that something like this is going to be deployed. You know, and he said even if it was, you know, the, you know, both the admiralty and the air ministry, as well as the army, you know, their view is that, you know, even if such an application,

had been cultivated, it would, you know, anything that would lead to results in a large scale would not be emergent for years. You know, and this was Churchill talking.

You know, this was like Arch Warmarker Churchill, you know, so, I mean, it's, the, uh, he,

I ask you a question. Yeah, yeah. Can I get it? Um, could that, the line of, you know, we've been testing these,

um, plutonium-based weapons and it's remarkable. what the kind of power they have, could that be a way of propagandizing and saying, we know what these things can do, we can't allow the enemy to have them? Yeah, I think that that's where,

I think the people who are agitating for that disinvote campaign, I think that was the subtext of it too. You know, it wasn't just to, you know, kind of like bluff the Germans. because frankly, the UK did not really have the forces in being to bluff in other ways other than Ledgerd-Main. But yeah, also, I think it could have served, yeah, exactly what you said.

It could have served as, you know, an ongoing pretext as well, you know, like these kinds of things are being developed and an enemy hands. Oh, my God. Like basically it became, you know, kind of like the, albeit it was it was top secret, but what became, you know, like the new deal. or rationale for the Manhattan Project. But it's, but again, I mean, the reason it didn't is because it seemed like just so outlandish. And again, these weren't, these weren't a bunch of, you know, these weren't a bunch of Wolver-1 generals who were like, oh, I don't know about this, you know, this, this, this, this high-fluing science. Like, you know, these were like, these were guys at the top

of the field, you know, in the UK, you know, in the 1930s. I mean, to say that like, they, they didn't, you know, have an indigenous, you know, know, um, uh, uh, academic community that was very much on the cusp of new physics research. I mean, it's preposterous. It just didn't seem, it just wasn't, it wasn't what people were thinking. Okay. And I mean, yeah, okay, anytime you're talking about, anytime you're talking about, anytime you're talking about a rare element, okay, obviously like explosives or something that comes to mind. This is like the nature of it. But that wasn't, um, this was not something that was just universe like the way it's presented is that there's just something that was like universally understood

to be like you know the potential of uh air grid operator of ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest we're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital and shaping these plans our consultation closes on the 25th of november have your say online or in person so together we can create a more reliable system sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.com. This Black Friday, game, stream and go full speed with one gig, sky broadband, and watch unmissable shows like all her fault on Sky.

These nice people killing each other. And Ballad of a Small Player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I've made some mistakes, right, who hasn't? Get one gig Sky Broadband, Essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Our lowest ever price. Availability subject location, new customers only, 12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter, TV and broadband sold separately, terms apply for more infooshees sky.a slash beads. You know, of uranium, and it was only a matter of time before, you know, the correct formula, as it were, was calculated in order to, like, bring it into reality.

you know and that's uh you know all we can the closest we can get to literally peek inside the minds of people in the epoch is you know their you know their uh their declarations either they're either you know they're either their private diaries and their correspondences or you know their their public declarations or their statements the presence of witness And there's not any indication that, you know, anybody within the scientific or military community in Europe as of 1939, you know, had this in within their contemplation. And again, part of this was, part of this was, you know, part of this was a conceptual bias. Because again, like, if you're, if you're a Feld Marshal in the Verimacht, or you know if you're a british admiral of the royal navy like why what what's what's what's what's an atomic bomb going to do for you you know like what like honestly like how how is that going to solve you know the the exigencies that you're charged with resolving you know i mean

it it's germany germany becomes a superpower and and and um and resolves uh it's uh and resolves like the long emergency it's it's faced with if it if it if it can drop atomic bombs on people. I mean, that's not, you know, again, it's, there's a very, there's a very, there's a very, there's a very peculiar strategic configuration where, where nuclear weapons have real utility. And it basically never emerges. And, you know, it certainly, it certainly wasn't emergent in the case of Germany in 1939. You know, and people can argue that point all they want, but I, I don't, I, I, I, I, I've got to come across a convincing case otherwise, even in the abstract.

In more concrete terms, relying on the direct, relying on the direct advice and claims and later Lord Sherwell. Churchill wrote to the Secretary of State for air defense, saying that any suggestion of, of quote, Nazi superweapons were without foundation. He said only, you know, as his expert, namely Lindemann, it told him only a minor constituent of uranium was effective, which, which, you know, which took, which took, quote,

many years to extract, you know, the chain process can take place only if concentrated in a large mass, you know, the, as soon as the energy develops, you know, it's, you know, likely that, you know, we would require a mild detonation instead of a chain reaction, which presumably, you know, would, would incerate, you know, like the uranium core that was needed in the first place and, you know, based on this based on the nature of these things and you know unknown variables you know if an adequate mass were cultivated you know a chain reaction could ensue that you know was just massively destructive you know in ways we can't even conceptualize you know all the basic uh not not basic in terms like uninformed because this was new science but all the kind of all all the kind of you know usual objections

of the time to you know why you know we don't This is, you know, we don't want to, we don't want to tickle the dragon's tail, as it were. You know, and this was Churchill himself, like, relying on his experts, you know, and it's, again, like what, if anything, he had, he had an incentive to, you know, confabulate, you know, some kind of threat where there wasn't one, not, not diminish a threat where, you know, where it was. I mean, obviously. but it's um but it uh and just uh

for those who don't know a lot about this and I mean I'm one of them so I'm not being pedantic um like what is uranium and why uranium again uranium is what was available Central Europe is uh

one of the natural um you know deposits of uranium that can be uh harvested and extracted, mine utilized in weapons development.

Obviously, uranium's a chemical element. What is a chemical element? It's an irreducible substance that cannot be broken down into other substances. Its symbol is you. Its atomic number is 92. In solid form, it's a silvery gray metal.

Uranium atom is 92 progenital. photons and 92 electrons, of which six are valence electrons. Uranium radioactive decays by emitting alpha radiation. And the half-life of this is, it's between something like 200,000 and like 4.5 billion years of isotopes. So like uranium, like this is, this was like revolutionary, being able to date the Earth, like, quite literally. I did not know that until recently. But, um, the most common.

isotopes and natural uranium is uranium 238 um and uranium 235 okay and uranium incidentally is the highest atomic weight of the primordially occurring elements now why uranium 235 uranium 235 um is uh it's uh it's uh it's uh in every in every thousand parts about in every thousand parts of natural uranium there's about seven parts of a lighter isotope which is the mass number 235

the chemical properties are the same obviously but the physical properties differ uranium 235 essentially it's got to be the atomic structure of it has got to be manipulated in a way

so that in very crude terms it does not absorb what it is being bombarded with. The reaction has to actually be cultivated. This can only be achieved with uranium 235 isotope, okay? Such that

Professor Esau had any idea the uranium 235 was like something that was like special or that it, you know, know it was distinguishable in terms of its um potential for you know applied um applied um utility you know like military or otherwise um he if he knew if he had a deeper understanding than his colleagues of why he didn't disclose that but he did say that at once we should secure all available uranium stocks in germany and we should cultivate uranium 235 where we find it um

He said that a joint research group over his administration, but representing, you know, like all interested factions, you know, party, state, military. You know, and this was, you know, people kind of like shrug this off, like, well, that's other ASL, like, trying to, you know, insinuate himself into some kind of, you know, hantro role. I mean, which within, within, with under the, under the German Reich, especially, you know, in the pre-war years, that was not uncommon. but um or they kind of viewed him as just you know another scientist kind of you know being hysterical um

and for most of the people present at the at the genoc conference in these subsequent sort of meetings of this coterie that had you know um that was involved in the uh you know or that there was you know within this kind of cora people from the the department of educational standards as well as the war office, you know, that nobody heard about uranium or uranium research until the war broke out. You know, as it happened, when the war did break out, there was a, you know, there was the, there was the, there was the, there was the nominally civilian research team that we just mentioned that the war office had kind of secretly, you know, organized. And like I said, like I, I believe there's a direct line from them to the chance for you to Edolf Hitler, although I can't prove that. But there were actually two teams in total working on really small-scale uranium research, like on the day World War II broke out, okay? At Dr. Kurt Deidner, who was the here, the Army's expert on nuclear physics. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up

the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together, we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4.4. Northwest. This Black Friday, gain stream and go full speed with one gig Sky broadband. And watch unmissable shows like all her fault on Sky.

These nice people killing each other. of a small player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I made some mistakes. Right, who hasn't? Get one gig Sky Broadband, essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Our lowest ever price.

Availability subject location, new customers only, 12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter, TV and broadband sold separately. Terms apply for more infooshee sky.a slash speeds. Um, of these, uh,

the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I'm sorry, I'm honestly dismantled. The very day after Britain and France declared war in Germany, Professor Esau somehow secured an interview with General Becker,

who was the chief of Army ordinance. He obtained a promise of full war office support and full and exclusive support for his team's research endeavors at the expense of Deibner's. Now, some people will speculate. It's kind of like the dog that didn't bark in evidentiary terms. Like, well, how did he pull this off, especially considering he was a civilian and Deibner was insinuated into the army establishment?

He must have promised some kind of results. I don't think that, I don't see how that's possible because, I mean, you know, Becker, among other things, you know, he didn't get to that position without having a basic understanding of, of, you know, of chemistry. at least. You know, I mean, you're not talking about some man in the street as relates to applied science. You know, even

something that was then as kind of theoretically abstract or, you know, unknown as, as atomic physics. But I don't, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't see what Ezo could have produced either in order to kind of like, in consideration

of that guarantee. that supposedly would have been made that Deibner couldn't have. I speculate if this comes down to Becker having more confidence in one man over the other. But again, who knows? I think all of this is kind of much to do about nothing because the point, I think the key takeaway is that this was not viewed as a priority. You know, not that it was, you know, I think probably in crude terms, Becker didn't really give a shit.

you know i mean he Germany was now at war with Britain and France you know and his priority was you know doing what he had to to win that war you know like what one egg had is bringing to the table versus another one well he makes the better argument he gets the

you know he gets the you know he gets the you know I mean that's these things often are and like I said I mean the speculation is basically people filling in the gaps with what they want to to substantiate a narrative that's you know not that's not

not substantially by the record. You know, I mean, so that's species anyway. What Becker did agree to, what Esau did come away with, aside from like a promise of, you know, kind of funding and support, was an official voucher certifying the military importance of the project for the war efforts. But, I mean, like, all kinds of things were kind of given that proverbial stamp. I mean, especially later on and kind of more liberally by the SS, believe it or not. not, I mean, anything, and against the SS, basically, whatever you give in his Himmler, like, any kind of scientific merit, you know, whether it was, you know, like, you know, transforming, like, you know, coordinated jet fuel or, I mean, but you know what I mean, like it, I don't, like the fact that, the fact that ESA was able to, the, that he was able to get, you know, like the chief army ordinance, you know, to, to sign off on his research. I mean, that basically just means he was competent. then like whatever he came up with like probably would you know be utile and whether it was or not you know like whatever he came up with belonging to the army you know not not to not to e-s-au

or not to any you know private sector or university patron so that's um you know that's kind of the foundation of uh that's kind of the foundation of you know like leading into the war like what what the state of uh you know atomic research was of course all of course all Ultimately, like during the war, the title of Mr. Irving's book, The Virus House, I mean, that was the heavy water facility that was dedicated to, you know, that was dedicated to, you know, cultivating uranium 235. So, I mean, there's something there, yeah. And I hope not boring everybody to death.

I'll try to wrap this up in the next episode. but it um but yeah that's i don't i don't want to get into that now because then we'd be talking for the next hour but um yeah that's uh that's uh that's uh basically the the foundation and um you know like i said i think it's the reason why i wanted to cover this now was i think it's timely going to go to the ab and iron movie which in a lot of ways is not a bad film especially for hollywood and like some people believe chrits were nolan was kind of surreptitiously signaling the political things. I mean, that's a subject for another stream, but

I thought it was timely, man. I hope people are, I mean, it's essential understanding the total picture of the conflict. So I hope people are getting something out of it. The feedback seems good so far. Yeah, I think the the

very first time we ever talked, we talked about the spelling and changing narratives. And, you know, the narrative of this is, you know, the narrative of this is wrong. The narrative that people believe of the German bomb program is wrong. So I don't see how anybody can, you know,

if one of the goals, if one of the goals is to open people's eyes to World War II and exactly what it was, I think there's no more important, there's no more important subject than a potential you know,

bomb that, you know, they, oh, he would have just dropped it on it. Yeah, it's also, because... You would have dropped it everywhere. No, I mean, and people too, like I said, the important, you know, I spent a lot of time with game theory and, like, formal logic.

I mean, it's like my background, like, educationally, but also, you know, the Cold War was so, I mean, nuclear weapons, like, the Cold War can only be understood within the context of the nuclear paradigm. You know, like, it was just, it literally defined every aspect of it, like military, political, philosophical. Like, people can't get their minds around, really, the idea that, you know, in a different strategic paradigm, um, let alone one in the 20th century, that, you know, nuclear weapons could have not been, you know, the kind of trump card, the, or like, the key. heat of victory that obviated all, like, lesser

killing technologies. You know, and like, I can't emphasize that enough. It's like, again, like, even people, I'm not, any people who've got their own conceptual prejudices one way the other about the Third Reich. Like, it's not, put that out of your mind totally. Think it's really strategic terms and about irrationality of what Berlin had to accomplish

in order to realize its war aims and win the war. Like, again, how would an atomic bomb facilitate that? I mean, on the one hand, like, Yeah, it's better always to have, like, potential firepower on hand that's devastating. But it's not, okay. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's not, it's not, like, like the utility of these weapons is not, it, there's not a spectrum, a wide spectrum utility to them, you know, it, um, and I think people

forget that, you know, even people who are basically informed about things and, you know, you know, conceptually literate. But yeah. All right. I'm rambling, man. I won't. I won't keep you any longer. But thanks so much for hosting me, man.

I owe you a lot. I mean, we're friends and I appreciate being able to cover these things. But I really, really appreciate the chance to appear on your program. Like, believe that. No, I agree. You're always welcome.

All you have to do is contact me with the subject. And, you know, we'll do it. But before we do that, hit up some plugs and we'll get out of Yeah, legit. I'm always on substack, and in September I'll be dropping season two of the podcast in the interim. I'll keep dropping, like, one-off content that you can listen to, like the Nico Klauerreview and other stuff, I promise. But in September, season two will drop.

And when it does, all other content, all other podcast content will be free. It's RealThomas-777.substack.com. You can find me on the app, formerly known as Twitter. It's Real, R-CAPAL-R-E-A-L underscore number 7, H-O-M-A-S-7777. I'm on Telegram. It's at Thomas Graham, number seven, H-M-A-S-77-Gram. Or no, it's Thomas. Yeah, no, that's right.

That's right. I'm not going to see you all. I'm just tired. And that's, the YouTube channel, there's nothing there yet, except a couple one-off things. You know, like an intro and,

you know, some stuff that I've recorded with friends, like my dear friend, Carrie. On my YouTube channel, it's Thomas TV. That's, when I go to Utah in a couple weeks, it's to begin shooting dedicated content

for Thomas TV. So I'm excited about that. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person, so together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.e. 4.6 northwest. On the many nights of Christmas, the Guinness Storehouse brings to thee Christmas nights at gravity.

This Christmas, enjoy a truly unique night out at the Gravity Bar. Savour festive bites from Big Fan Bell, expertly crafted seasonal cocktails and dance the night away with DJs from love tempo. Brett take infuse, amazing atmosphere, incredible food and drink. My goodness, it's Christmas at the Guinness Storehouse. Book now at giddhistorehouse.com. Get the faxby drinkaware, visit drinkaware.com.

You know, we're doing a lot more with the brand, not just, like, sexing up the production values, which I owe to my dear friend Rake and his team. Like, literally, like, I could not do any of this stuff without them. They're the guys who do all, like, the editing and stuff and make things, like, presentable, like, legit. I'd be, if it was just me, like, I'd be, like, some, like, hobo, like, looking like he was on public access in, like, 1980 or something.

Like, it'd be, like, something from, like, Yeah, it'd be like something from like public access and like some alternate dimension of shit. But, uh, so keep that in mind. Um, that they're the guys who really are owed props for anything I do in this regard. But, uh, yeah, that's about where we're at. I, uh, I'm hoping to be able to drop, uh, Steelstorm 3 by early spring. Nuremberg by summer and that's all I got for right now. Until part three. Thank you, Thomas.

Yeah, thank you, Pete. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingones show. I'm here with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas? I'm doing very well. Thanks for hosting me again. I hope I hope people have been getting something out of this series. You know, I'm a historical writer and I know something. about political theory and the law and formal logic, but I'm not, I'm not a scientist at all.

I'm not even like a layman who, you know, is just highly competent in science or something. So I hope I'm not embarrassing myself in the way I explain some of these things. But I've gotten feedback, like a friend of ours who's a German dude who also has a degree in physics, like, told me that, like, he's like, yeah, I'm proud of you for, like, not totally fucking this up. So that may feel kind of good.

but our German friends as well as like our physicist friends generally don't pull any punches in that regard. So, but today, I mean, there's just a lot here, okay? I mean, but I think we'll maybe go one more episode just as a, you know,

after this one is kind of a bookend and maybe field questions. But I'll explain what I mean with a statement I'm about to issue forth as we get into the meat of today's episode. But, you know, the German atomic bomb program such that it, such that there could even be said to be one that existed. It was basically strangled in utero when the Vermeck was like stopping his tracks at the gates of Moscow. Okay.

I'll get into what I mean by that as we move along. Okay. if nothing else, you know, military exigencies and, and the long emergency of a long war, a prolonged war, which Germany could not afford the wage, made rendered any kind of German version of Manhattan project, you know, not feasible, even if it was strategically sound as regards, you know, it's impetus, you know, would it even would even resolve Germany's, military quagmire, emergent military quagmire. But there's a lot in between, you know, 1939 and December 1941. That still needs to be addressed. And the person of Heisenberg features very prominently here, okay? For those who know, Heisenberg was not an experimental physicist. He was very much a theoretical physicist. And frankly,

something of a philosopher with theological interest. He was not he was not really the counterpart to Oppenheimer or something. And I say that in the most praising terms. I think a guy like Wolfgang Smith is kind of very much a descendant, a spiritual

descendant of Heisenberg. So the fact that Heisenberg came to be you know, we kind of helm the virus house research and all attendant projects. I mean, that tells you something too, you know? I mean, it's, and I'll expand upon that

with discrete facts and testimony. But that's something people need to keep in mind. You know, it's just, there's a lot of connecting the proverbial dots in the absence of direct testimony or concrete evidence to point to in order to, you know, paint a picture of what this, of what this endeavor was and what gave rise to it and how it was not what was claimed but you know to what degree to what to what degree it was a the people who claimed the German atomic bomb program was

was well underway in a dedicated capacity the degree to which that was propaganda deliberately cultivated by interested parties um contra you know people actually believing this was the case owing to not just the fog of war but you know the kind of opaque nature of of what was then you know the new science you know and um and everything else it's hard to say i think it depends on who we were talking about but we'll get into that too um particularly the views of people like stimson versus you know those in you know i mean stemson was an outlier in the new deal administration anyway but you know he the view of him versus you know people who people in the administration who are most receptive to Einstein and Saxes claim

I mean there's a there's a difference in conceptual horizon there but I want to get into we left off last time with the April 29th 939 conference and As we got into the focus of that discussion really was the feasibility of a, of a quote, uranium engine, you know, like we said, such that these discussions among this coterie that the war office had corralled had a focus. and later like such that their um such that their experimental activities you know had a discrete focus it it was um it was really towards what we conceptually what we'd consider a nuclear reactor and that becomes relevant that becomes independently relevant um as uh as time went on

um really relating to the weaponization of of of uranium 235 as we'll see but a few days prior a guy named Niels Bohr, who was a Dane, but he was in some way, he had like an outsized impact on German physics, okay, and he was very much like a mentor of Heisenberg, among other

luminaries. He and a guy named J.E. Wheeler, they published the American Physical Review, which was read pretty much by everybody in the Western world, who was it all involved in physics, even throughout the war.

you know this endured um it uh it uh it uh it reiterated the idea that uranium 235 had weapons potential you know so this was even independent of any new deal propaganda independent of any you know kind of uh anxieties uh well founded or not um within the british intelligence establishment. Like there were just like worldwide, there were people who were arguably, you know, like, splendidly disinterested in the political climate and the burgeoning, you know,

battle lines who were playing with this idea. You know, it was at least on their radar. Okay. So the climate, the intellectual climate into which everybody was sort of thrust who was taking on a role

in experimental physics in any combat nation. an actual potential. You know, there was, there was, there was this kind of subtext of, you know, military potential here, okay? So, I mean, to be fair, like, that's got to, uh, that's got to be, um, accounted for. Otto Hahn, who, you know, who was, uh, an experimental physicist and who did have tremendous clout, uh, just, just across the board, like, not just, but it's particularly

within the, uh, within the committee. in uh berlin uh he said that any project to essentially you know try and um cultivate um uranium 235 it'd be it'd be astronomically expensive um anyway to present you know just insoluble difficulties um professor bagge who was a a preeminent researcher and he was kind of the top researcher was attached to hezenberg in a direct capacity like he was literally his protege he said well let's call it Heisenberg himself and you know if if this is possible or if this is just you know a pipe dream um not even the development of a bomb isn't that's not the question on the table just you know uh the the you know the but the the the the extraction of light uranium isotope um in appreciable quantities you know like he if this is possible and if it's

feasible, you know, within, you know, our present means, you know, he'd be the man who could air grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together, we can create a more reliable, sustainable electrical. electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest. On the many nights of Christmas, the Guinness Storehouse brings to thee Christmas nights at gravity. This Christmas, enjoy a truly unique night out at the Gravity Bar.

Savour festive bites from Big Fan Bell, expertly crafted seasonal cocktails, and dance the night away with DJs from love tempo. Brett take infuse, amazing atmosphere, incredible food and drink. My goodness. It's Christmas at the Guinness Storehouse. Book now at giddlestorehouse.com. Get the facts be drinkaware, physysdrinkaware.com. Who could, you know, sort of shed light on this?

Now, Heisenberg, well, universally respected, like, again, there was a basic element of disdain for theoretical physics among many of these experimental physicists. And that very much, that very much, that very significant apparent when Heisenberg kind of joined this

this this this this this this quorum not not a core I mean it was anything but a quorum was a coterie um you know and that there was a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of contrarianism for his own sake uh kind of thrown up in these discussions which in fact

David Irving in his book makes that point and he had opportunity to you know speak to some of the men who actually were in attendance at these meetings at least in like a more than oblique capacity. The, what was finally agreed upon was basically that if there was any, if there was any slight, the official statement, what was the side of the minutes of, of these kinds of like the collected minutes of these debates, discussions was

what Professor Geiger said. If there was any, if there was even the slightest chance of liberating energy, From the atomic nucleus, it would, you know, in any of these experiments, it had to be followed up, okay? The, it was recommended to General Becker, you know, the ordinance department chief that had dedicated, quote, nuclear physics research group. Be organized under these auspices. And, you know, like we talked about last time, like you saw in an amicable relationship already with Becker. And so it was made so. For security reasons, and this two, I think, clouded perception of the allies, at least in those who were within military intelligence.

For security reasons, the project, the language employed in documents relating to it, it was all characterized as, as research for the creation of potential fuel sources for rocket propulsion. Okay. Like the actual Reich rocket program was, it became, it came under the auspices of the SS eventually. You know, that's why Von Braun, like, actually was in, was in uniform in the SS. You know, like, it was, like, it was formally incorporated into the organization. and in a very top-down way, you know, the rocket program is an example of how, of everything that, you know, that the virus house program wasn't, you know. And I also believe owing to the intrinsically military language of, you know, this kind of deliberate mischaracterization of the program as a rocket program.

I think that may have convinced people who came across kind of scraps and statements out of the air, you know, who were spying on the Third Reich. I think they just made, they, they axiomatically determined, like, you know, well, this is, this is a direct, this is a, this is a direct military endeavor, you know, and that's not unreasonable. That's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw, especially if one understood. but how the German general staff system worked and kind of what the interplay was between, you know, technological research within what was not only the private sector. And, you know, it's, it's the ability of the military to capitalize on on these developments. You know, but it, I think that's, I think that's interesting. And it's also, it goes to where priorities were, you know, like kind of the people in the, people in the, vermoct kind of like what they viewed as like the zenith kind of of of of of vortex um you know

was uh what was aerospace stuff you know with like with with with with with with with with with with with with obviously kind of being the the absolute zenith of of that but um the uh it uh it uh what also happened was on uh on uh on uh on september 16th um For the D. Kurt Diedner, who we talked about last time, he was appointed to lead, at least nominally, the Nuclear Physics Research Group under ordinance department auspices. Dr. Bagge began keeping a diary for the first time of his life, because I mean, I think he realized, I'm sure he realized that whatever the outcome of these endeavors, it was something, you know, he was participating in. scientific history, you know, as it was being made. But on the, he notes that on September 16th, 1939, Devener summoned him personally to report the Army Ordinance Department.

He writes, participate in the quote conference about an important matter, then returned to Leipzig. This was the last, from this point on, the reason why he uses the, that deliberately minimalist language, any reference to the possibilities of uranium for any application, reactors, super bombs, anything was considered was classified as a state secret. And all reference of the possibilities of uranium and energy derived from uranium was actively suppressed. The first instance, and again, this goes to show you the kind of frosty relationship,

ship between the private sector and the army in this regard, you know, kind of splendidly contra the situation is existed between the aviation industry and the military establishment, which is positively incestuous. A Siemens research chemist, you know, a Seaman, or research physicist, you know, Siemens was a huge, you know, conglomerate, you know, like they, they were basically insinuated in everything, and the, cutting edge of of applied sciences you know as related to industry and everything else um the uh he submitted an article uh to the main like german news agency um it contained a detailed description of uh you know like kind of like the atomic science of the day you know and it's it's supposed

you know like marvelous potential um for purposes civilian and military and it refers specifically of the power contained in the uranium nucleus. And it said, quote, it potentially contained enough to blast the ruins of a giant city up into the stratosphere. What terrific powers of annihilation and aircraft were ahead. It could fight an enemy with bombs like these, end quote. And the writer called, in non-certain terms, for increased experiments with masses of uranium. which again the rike had access to in chico-slovakia there were uranium reserves in Portugal too and um later on late at late in the war even the British were convinced that this played into um some of the kind of you know the reasons why like in their view the fear sort of treated um uh Franco with kid gloves uh the majority of these the majority of these the majority of the majority of the majority of of these resources were in Portugal, but obviously, you know,

it, um, it, uh, the, the, the key of the, uh, to the peninsula was, Iberian Peninsula was Spain, but that's something of a tangent. But, um, the, the, um, this, this article was totally suppressed and, uh, the author was warned like nothing of its nature can appear in print. Um, when, uh, there were, um, there was, was a papers on general atomic research were allowed um including uh directly related to you know experience involving uranium and uh including the light isotope but uh no direct mention of their context was to be made and certainly not any even speculative suggestion about you know their employment and weapons programs now we can look at that any number of ways you know like

It's like we talked about before, and I think you raised, when you're looking ahead, I mean, the Germans were actively at war by this point. This was, you know, the two weeks prior, the United Kingdom and France had declared war on Germany. But even at nominal peace, you know, in a strategic landscape such that Germany was situated, you know, the way, you've got to be careful with what you introduce. into the stream of information. You've got to be carefully about the disinformation you insinuate. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans.

Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together, we can create a more reliable, sustainable. sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid. i.e. 4.slash-Northwest. Inflation pushes up building costs, so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Under-insurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing contents. It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy

regularly. For more, visit understandinginsurance.I.E. forward slash underinsurance. Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. And probably it was in the minds of plenty of people that the last thing that

the Reich needed was you know, the new dealers and the British being able to seize upon statements by top scientists that Germany is working on super weapons. You know, Hitler especially, he was very cognizant this like so is gerbils and um that uh that there's there's there's a very interesting give and

take um around uh both men's respective ideas on the role of you know media at war and as a political apparatus but uh my point is that it's not it's not just like prima facie evidence that oh um berlin demanded this be suppressed they obviously were you know this was their goal was to you know, do exactly that. What was suggested in the article by the Siemens physicist, you know, it's quite a bit more nuanced because I've run across very, very basic

treatments of that anecdote that, you know, proffer precisely that asin conclusion. The, uh, now,

one of the problems faced whatever the state of applied research utilizing uranium 235 by the German scientists was you know whether as a dedicated weapons program

or just as you know trying to identify what potentiality existed utilizing these you know these this element specifically uranium 235 is an energy source like whatever whatever the whatever the ultimate goal was um there was a there there's a problem with uh there's a problem with

isolating uranium 235 and cultivating it okay um and uh this such was the you know there from there from whence emerges the concern about you know it just being a cost prohibitive affair, which makes it, you know, functionally useless, particularly as a military endeavor. The September 26, 1939, the second conference of the nuclear physicist at the ordinance department was held. the subject of that conference was specifically means of extracting energy from the uranium nucleus either in controlled amounts as would

facilitate a reactor or uranium furnace or the uncontrolled chain reaction reactive violence of an explosion okay the first the first accomplishing the first would involve mixing the uranium

with some substance capable of literally slowing down the high energy fast neutrons emitted during the fission process without absorbing them for technical reasons I don't quite understand neutrons of a certain energy band are particularly prone to capture by uranium

them. So for them not to be lost, these fishing neutrons had to be rapidly slowed down by some kind of breaking substance or in scientific language like moderating elements or moderator. Okay. The second possibility was that if ever was going to be made to utilize this as an explosive, you know, if a super bomb was in fact possible, you know, it was the rare isotope that was needed to fish in with thermal neutrons. Okay, so how do you, how do you get the, how do you get the, how do you get the, the uranium 235 that you need. You know, in the case of the first question, Professor Hartek, he discussed the design of the uranium reactor to solve both problems. Okay, you had a colleague named Dr. Hans Seuss. Not Dr. Seuss, the guy who wrote like the cat in the head. Like this guy was like an actual doctor named Seuss.

Like take from that way you will. I know some Dick is going to mention Starbelly to sneashes or something. like it's not about that. Sue said, proposed that heavy water was was to be used in the,

in the as it as the moderating element. Okay. What is heavy water? It's a form of water, obviously, whose hydrogen atoms are

all deuterium, also known as heavy hydrogen. Rather than the common hydrogen isotope that makes it most of the hydrogen and normal water. The presence of heavier hydrogen isotope, it gives the water different nuclear properties and the increase in mass alters the physical and chemical properties as relates to normal water. Okay. Now, so as this research went on, in other words, you know, kind of like the challenges like

stacked up and up and up. And as I'm sure you've gleaned, basically what became clear, according to the path, the course of German research, and America was able to avoid this entirely owing to plutonium. And we'll get into that briefly, if there's time, or if people are interested. But basically, like, when it came clear at the second conference, what was being floated is that, well, it's not a question of, do we build a bomb or do we build a reactor, or not even Dewey, but like what's the potential here? It's that if you want to do anything like the latter, you have to develop the former anyway.

Okay, so I mean, this is just becoming, like, who's going to pay for all this when this may not even be possible? And we may not even have access to the uranium pile reserves that we need in order to accomplish it. um the uh heisenberg enter heisenberg um he was commissioned specifically to investigate theoretically whether a chain reaction in uranium was possible given the known uh properties of of neutron fusion and uranium fission and the characteristics therein um over a time this is pre-1941. After 1941, things changed, reasons we'll get into. That kind of became the focus of such a thing to be said to be like a dedicated focus towards a directly military application. Okay, I think this is when discussions corral discreetly around the potential of an atomic bomb, okay, within German physics quarters generally and specifically within this order.

department coterie of great physics mines okay um and partly yeah obviously because partly like that's something that you know the vermacht needed to know about if this was possible you know owing to the fact that germany was now at war but also i mean if that's possible um if you know basically like it's you know if if there's potential for you know energy release um at all you know like the most kind of concrete way, you know, to understand that in experimental terms is to determine if, you know, like an explosive chain reaction can be cultivated. Okay. I think that must be accounted for. And based upon Heisenberg's own notes, like I'm talking about like his personal, like opinion work product that was, you know, not for anybody else's eyes. This seems to be the case

because he never once talks about, you know, I mean, first of all, there was his reactions when he was in captivity to the, you know, to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks. But also, like, in his own, I say opinion of work products, it wasn't a proper diary. You know, like, never once does he write, you know, some of the effect of, you know, like, this,

we're working towards the element of a bomb. I mean, he writes a lot, and he raised issues with, with colleagues about, you know, the morality of, of, of this research for various, you know, in various capacities. but never once does want to get the idea that, you know, he saw himself as insinuated into some sort of like German Manhattan project. The, around the same time, the war office somewhat abruptly, they took over the building on the campus of the Kaiser-Vilhelm Institute of physics, okay?

because it had the best equipment for applied atomic research, probably in Europe, definitely within Germany. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say online or in person So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest Inflation pushes up building costs

So it's important to review your home insurance cover To make sure you have the right cover for your needs Underinsurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing content. It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly. For more, visit understandinginsurance. com.I.E. forward slash under insurance.

Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. All scientists participating in, you know, the War Office project, they were asked to transfer this one central institute. you know so that like basically like all hands would be on deck um under one roof um this is this is absolutely necessary okay especially we're talking about um this kind of advanced research um the problem is these men all had uh you know these weren't military men to a man they were uh you know civilian researchers they had egos uh they they were all you know kind of of the kingfish of the pond they were situated at in the respective institutions.

But it's also, you know, some of these guys were young, but a lot of them weren't. You know, it's like they, people become very attached to their research, particularly men I'd have to imagine of brilliant intellect. You know, they didn't want to, they didn't want to be part of a team. I mean, who the hell does, you know, like in that capacity. So, most of them, like almost all of them objected. Many of them just declined, they just declined what amount of do a direct order, okay? But it's like the cachet that these men had was, you know, you cannot, you can't replace nuclear physicists, okay? And like, it's, um, the, uh, who was corralled there, uh, at the Berlin Dahlem, uh, the Kaiser-Belum Institute, um, like Visigur, Vitz, Bob, Borman, Fisher.

and Heisenberg was often present. So, I mean, there was like a core, there was, there was, there was a core, like, working group that did exactly what was, what was directed. But it indicated a real, you know, it, it indicated a real lack of, of concrete focus and kind of top-down discipline towards a directed goal. Um, you know, and that's, uh, that's, um, I think that's more symptomatic than causative. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not, it's, it's, that's important understanding too is that, you know, we're not talking about, you know, a true German atomic bomb project, but that was sabotaged by outside egos and eccentricities. Um, it, uh, I don't want, the, the second key takeaway, too is that there's this idea that you know there was some like brain drain in germany because like you know all the brilliant physicists were jewish like and got chased out that's not

true at all um heisenberg probably was like a leading physics mind like on this planet you know and uh you know visigur viz bob e sal bohrmann i mean all these guys like they were boggy dibner like they they're at the top of their game um and frankly you know they weren't none of these guys were like party men, or dedicated national socialist, but they weren't about to reject their fatherland, which frankly had done tremendous things for them in terms of facilitating their research in all kinds of ways and, you know, providing them with, you know, not just the material means, but the kind of social capital and structural resources to, you know, to practice their, you know, you know, they're, they're, uh, their experiments and everything else.

Or in a Heisenberg's case, you know, like, there's really probably in, uh, probably in, probably in France and probably in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, like, in the Nordic countries. I mean, he would have been like a luminary, but it, you know, he, I mean, Germany was, um, Germany was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was the, was the it was the actual pivot of, uh, of scientific, uh, research and endeavor in Europe that can't be denied. You know, and like the, that's also, uh, there was a disadvantage here, because, uh, Mautauk, but his, one of the, you know, one of the, one of the, one of the researchers, he said in known certain terms that, you know, he was delighted to be assigned this project

because, you know, he could continue with atomic research and his young colleagues who he thought had great potential. He said we could protect them from getting called up to the draft. You know, we could continue our scientific research in the manner which we were accustomed, Like whether other people had to tighten their belts, you know, other other young guys, you know, who had a bright future in whatever career field, you know, we're having to go fight, you know, for the fatherland. You know, he's like we were basically unmolested, you know. So, I mean, that's totally different. That totally has an idea or sensibility. That was the case with the Manhattan product scientists.

and in the UK, man. Like, there was, the, you know, there was, like we talked about, you know, Churchill had very, and his, and his sponsors. I mean, they very effectively, you know, kind of, kind of drown out dissident voices as respect to the war effort, you know. And it had become something of a career killer, and especially in university life, which frankly, you know,

was, there was a lot of Jewish influence there. you know these these uh these guys in the uk were the counterparts you know to the uh to the virus house team as well as the manhattan project team you know they they were very much uh they were very much working in a dedicated capacity after nineteen forty one um to weaponize atomic energy to be turned against germany and they had no qualms with this at all you know i mean it wasn't even a question of qualms with the with the germans this this wasn't even on the radar you know I mean, I can't emphasize that enough. And if this was in the military's mind,

which I don't think it could have been because, I mean, the men who could conceptualize these things were all, you know, in academia, you know, if you're, if the men who can actually perform the experiments as required to facilitate the engineering of such devices as it would be coveted by their armed forces, I mean, if you can't make them do that, I mean, you're, you're, you're pissing into the wind. It's, uh, no.

What changed in 1941, um, for the Germans, everything changed in December, but before that, in July, 1941, the Ministry of Aircraft Production, which has something of an outsized role in the, uh, in what we can think of as kind of like the Churchill defense establishment or like you know arms establishment i mean for obvious reasons you know i mean it uh it um i mean the the uk realized early on it had to transition to a a major make the transition to a

major air power um otherwise you know like the royal navy would only be as dominant as a as a as the royal air force could be to defend it um so they so they so um the air ministry and all of its attendant um kind of appendages, developed a lot of clout. There was a special committee appointed to research the potential of atomic energy. Okay. It concluded that an effective uranium bomb. And again, uranium, until American, until American, research became kind of known to the world like after 45 in a complete capacity.

Everybody's, you know, uranium was what everybody thought of when they thought of weapons potential. The, this, the aircraft production committee's report was that about 25 pounds of uranium, 235. the yield could be equivalent to about 1,800 tons of TNT. And the committee's conclusion was that Germany having taken steps to cultivate heavy water, coupled with their increase in mining of uranium ore within, you know, they newly gained access to in what was Czechoslovakia, that it's obvious that, you know, even, you know, they're the state of Germany's not, they're not looking to utilize this for peaceful purposes. You know, the only immediate benefit to the German Reich of finding ways

to release the energy contained therein would be, you know, a weaponized capacity. I think by this point, I think the British probably believe this. I mean, who the hell knows? I mean, like we talked about, these guys were zealots anyway, but...

Air Grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say online or in person.

So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash northwest. Inflation pushes up building costs, so it's important to review your home insurance cover to make sure you have the right cover for your needs. Under-insurance happens where there's a difference between the value of your cover and the cost of repairing damage or replacing content. It's a risk you can avoid. Review your home insurance policy regularly.

For more, visit Understandinginsurance. com.I.E. forward slash under insurance. Brought to you by Insurance Ireland. Considering that, you know, there was far less known, I mean, Brayden had some top scientists, but there was far less known there than it was known in America, you know, about what the kind of real world, application

to these things would look like. I think that they probably believe like, you know, anything that the Germans were willing to dedicate this kind of effort to is going to be explicitly military. And probably, you know, some kind of

massive force multiplier. That's misguided for a lot of reasons, not ethically, factually. but in a fog of war kind of scenario with the state of science at the time that was available, even to an expert, I think they probably believed what they conveyed the Churchill. They further said that the material for an atomic weapon, at the earliest, at the very earliest could be available to Britain by the end of 1943.

You know, but that also, you know, begs the question as to like, what would we do with it? And it wouldn't even work. But the, this, of course, led the British to try and see what I could find out about the Iranian research program through their context in Norway. the primary German heavy water facility was at Rijuchen, Norway.

If I'm butchering that, forgive me. Rajuken, I think. R-J-U-K-A-N. The problem is, as I think the subscribers know, if we got into it in our Churchill episodes, the Norwegians did not have particularly warm feelings about the British,

particularly when the British had intended to assault and invade and occupy Norway preemptively. So throughout the summer 941, as intelligence came in from Trondheim to London, you know, from their intelligence operatives, that, you know, heavy water production at Rajuka and, you know, was steadily increasing. The, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the priority of, uh, the priority of the priority of the prime minister, you know, as well as everybody in the intelligent into military establishment was to, uh, you know, bring the, the Norwegian, uh, intelligence service on board.

Um, and, uh, you know, essentially get somebody to, you know, kind of penetrate, um, the Rizuqan facility or at least, you know, develop a way of conveying information back to London that might be usable in terms of how, you know, the facility could be compromised and derailed from its purpose. the Norwegians essentially told him to go to hell. You know, the official response from, there was a guy named Welsh. He was a lieutenant commander in the British army. He went on to serve in the intelligence service. He'd married a Norwegian woman, and he was chief of the Norwegian section of the intelligence service.

He, uh, he, uh, he contacted, uh, when he, when he contacted his counterparts in Norwegian intelligence, apparently they literally said to him in a telegram, uh, blood is thicker than heavy water, you know, like basically we go fuck yourself. You know, like, we're not, we're not, we don't, we want to be thrilled at the, that, that, that, you know, the, the vermod this here. And we don't know what the hell are doing, you know, um, at this facility, but, you know, we're not, we're not, we're not going to help you and Piggy Churchill find other ways to attack our country. You know, and I think that's very interesting,

especially considering how, particularly in English history books, you know, like, Quizzling is held out as just this, like, it's just this buffoon when in reality was a great man, but also they, it's pretended that, like, Norway was either fully on board with the allies with this, like, victim state, you know, like a lot, like, you know, there was about

between 5 and 10,000 Norwegians, like joined the Waffen-SS. And for a population, I was in Norway, that's substantial. Like, Newt Hampson was kind of like the national scribe in Norway. You know, he literally wrote a eulogy to Adolf Hitler. Like they, I mean, the Norwegians are great people, but I,

it's just an interesting kind of wrinkle that, you know, they refused to participate in kind of these, these designs of London. even at the height of the early phase of the war. At the same time, the British approached, at least as we know from the record, the British Scientific Representative in the, in the

in the air ministry committee. He wrote, he wrote to the chairman of a Roosevelt's scientific advisory committee. Like when he was in Washington, I believe, like if I read that right. You know, basically like, you know, kind of feeling out, you know, the, the Yanks about, you know,

what the state of their research was. And of course, like they, nobody outside the Manhattan Project, you know, like knew anything. Like, even if they had, I mean, it's debatable if they would have disclosed that or not, but, you know, there was a, it was a, it was a security was very, very tight to say the least. But, um, he floated the, the question, you know, it proves possible to manufacture a uranium bomb, you know, should it in fact be used. You know, like, should we should we, should, you know, one of our respective general staffs are both, like, are they willing and should they sanction the total

destruction of Berlin and the entire, you know, or like the entire country of Germany, you know, with, with a weapon such as this, you know, and it's, uh, that's really the only, the kind of, the kind of lame indirect reply, um, was from Stimson, uh, who had Stimson, like I mentioned earlier tonight, but also like in the past I've mentioned that Stimson was a, uh, he was an outlier in the new, New Dealer regime. But, you know, he said years after the fact that, you know, in 1942 and in 43, we believed based on, you know, intelligence derived, that we consider reliable that, you know, the Germans were far ahead of us and weaponized atomic research. I think Stimson probably believed that. But it's interesting. I raised the issue of the UK scientific representative, like not only raising this moral quagmire, but, you know, kind of putting it to paper, literally in a documentary record.

That's the only such moral qualm I've ever heard from a British source about the atomic bomb. From the era before it was, it even, you know, had been devised into existence. Bomber Harris spoke very candidly and intelligently on the morality of strategic bombing, you know, later on, but not of the nuclear question. But it's, I think this stuff's useful to kind of, it paints a picture of what was in the minds of the relevant players.

You know, like I said, by the, in reality, America was far ahead of everybody in terms of, you know, applied atomic weapons research. Plutonium was first synthesized, synthetically produced and isolated in late 1940. By a Duteron bombardment of uranium 238 and a cyclotron at Eurthia, California, Berkeley. Okay, and the ultimately plutonium Plutonium Purit to be a game changer.

The Nagasaki bomb was a plutonium bomb, okay? But even aside from that, just it separating plutonium from a chain-uracking uranium pile and then using that

as an atomic explosive, just the fact that that possibility had been recognized that meant that, you know, from, you know, basically from inception the Manhattan Project was, like, on the path to, like, developing an atomic bomb, like, in concrete terms. Which is pretty remarkable. I mean, in all kinds of ways. I mean, like, good and bad. But the, the, the, the, the, what the hell is going to say? Oh, the, air grid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up the northwest.

We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.e. 4.n.n. Northwest. This Black Friday, gain stream and go full speed with 1 gig sky broadband. unmissable shows like all her fault on Sky.

These nice people killing you, John. And Ballad of a Small Player starring Colin Farrell on Netflix. I've made some mistakes. Right, who hasn't? Get one gig Sky broadband, essential TV and Netflix, all for just 44 euro a month for 12 months. Our lowest ever price. Availability subject location, new customers only,

12 month minimum terms, standard pricing thereafter. TV and broadband sold separately. Terms apply for more infoosies sky.a slash speeds. Summer in 1941 in Germany. The Army Research Department had formally contracted Norwegian Hydro for a supply of 1,500 kilograms of heavy water between October and the end of the year. But from October 9th the end of the year, only 361 kilograms have been delivered. It was slow going. In other words, like if this was in a...

even if even if the process which was outlined at the second Berlin conference would essentially amount to do you know the creation of a reactor and subsequently you know the utilization of that reactor and the heavy water cooling to you know um to cultivate uranium 235 like even if that even if that was the objective and it was on track arguably in terms of um you know both intent and capability. This seems far too slow a process to make any kind of difference on the battlefield. We'll get into exactly what I mean in a minute. But what's important is that once this heavy water cultivation got underway, Heisenberg attested. He said it was from September 41. He's like,

we saw an open a road ahead of us leading to an atomic bomb. Okay. He's like, this is when I became convinced this was at least possible um and that's when uh you know just kind of a what was what was gleaned from you know just these processes that were actively underway um things came into focus in a kind of conceptual capacity if that makes sense i'm not a scientist so i take these guys words for it in their testimony when they suggest that this is um this is a you know a real process whatever the endeavor is. Niels Bohr, and this is important, the end of October, 941, Heismore failed to Denmark to seek out

Niels Bohr, who was one of the preeminent physics minds on this planet. He was something of a mentor to Heisenberg. He washingtonberg asked him at Borr's home. He said, you know, and obviously Heisenberg wasn't being loose-lipped and telling him what he was working on. he asked for just you know basically like you know what do you think of the like is there a moral obligation to not cultivate you know a weapon from atomic energy like basically like what's the moral implications of working on an atomic bomb in wartime if such a thing were possible um you know boris said that you know it you know well you know the responsibility to one's fatherland versus his duty to the scientific community as well as, you know, like human progress, you know, these things all need to be weighed.

Bore afterwards came away believing that this was like Heisenberg's kind of like, it was either Heisenberg sort of like thinly veiled confession, or it was him trying to convey to him in sort of like a culted language that he was building an atomic bomb quite literally. And he see, he later said Borda that he was deeply, shocked. This, I believe Boer basically told all of his intimates within kind of the small fraternity of European

physicists that, you know, Heisenberg came to see me and the Reich is building a bomb. Okay. And I think that's when the kind of myth of the German atomic bomb program really kind of took off in earnest. Not in a propaganda capacity. Like, I think people actually believe this. And I think Bore actually believed this too. But you know that were true, and I'm going to wrap up here in a moment,

but as fall became winter in 1941, the Vermaq was stopped dead in its tracks at the gates of Moscow. You know, and as we talked about many times in our series, you know, the Soviet Union had to fall in December. You know, the

entire German state, it's national economics, everything about it, was configured towards, quote, short wars with law and respites. You know, like, that's why I always emphasize that the Third Reich was not something mirror the Soviet Union. It was not mobilized for war from the top down. It did not even have a wartime mobilization scheme in place, you know, until 1943. You know, this was the fact that the assault on Moscow failed. I mean, this was a disaster. Like, ultimately, this cost the war.

But immediately, in December 41, Hitler issued the edict that the need to the German national economy are to give away to the necessities, the armist's economy. And that meant that, you know, Fritz Tote on December 3rd, And for those who don't know, Fritz Toad was the... Albert Speer succeeded Fritz Toad as arm and munitions minister after Toad was killed. Toad informed Hitler that the economy was literally at the breaking point.

And from then on, any expansion in one sector to meet military necessities had to be balanced by, you know, reduction in another. You know, Hitler drafted a decree, essentially with, like, Toots. input as to what this would entail. And essentially like shedding all like non-essential projects from

like any firms or institutions like engaged in applied research of a non-military nature. Essentially like that was over. You know, it's Professor Schumann one of the genetic conferences

attendees, he drafted an open letter to all institutes working on the arena project. And he said, he said, no uncertain terms that the, quote, the work on the project undertaken by the research group is making demands, which can be justified in the current recruiting in raw materials prices, only if there's a certainty of getting some benefit from it in the near future. You know, and that, and that, and that, that was that, man. we can um there's more to the story of the virus house as the war went on and particularly as you know um the tide truly turned i mean n sikh was no longer a possibility after december 41 but after stalingrad um you know it can there's obviously like an open-ended question is like

why did the Iranian project continue but um that owed to uh that owed to a that owed to a that owed it kind of the nature of modern bureaucracy, particularly in a state at total war. You know, like these things that are earmarked for funding of a way, even an emergency, just kind of continuing to go on. You know,

were there some people, too, like within, that's just the research group, but within the military establishment who did understand the implications of this uranium research and did think that there was potential for a real, viable device to be cultivated from it, you know, in a way that could like help Germany. Yeah, I think there were.

David Irving certainly seems to think there were. We get into some of that next episode. And I promise, like, I'll wrap it up. But there is just a lot here, man. You know, and like, I think the entire story needs to be told. But, yeah, that's a, I'm getting uncomfortable from, like, sitting for the best hours. I don't want to bore people at death. But yeah, we'll take this up, man, for a part four.

And I'll wrap it up there, and I promise. Yeah, I don't think it's boring. I think people are getting a lot out of this. So, yeah, we'll do it wrap it up with part four. Yeah, but do plugs real quick. And we'll get it out. We'll get out of here. Yeah.

You can find me on Twitter still, or X rather. I hate all, like, porny, that seems. I don't like, I don't like, I was on my phone, like, on the fucking train. There was, like, some chick next to me. And, like, when you only over the abs, like, a big X, it's like, man, I don't, that just looks fucking, I just don't like it. But it's a real capital, R-E-A-L underscore number seven, H-M-A-S-777, on a bird app or X app or whatever. the home of my podcast and some of my like longer form stuff is on substack that's the primary place to hit me up and it's a real thomas 7777.com you can find my website which is

still under construction but there is stuff there it's just thomas 777.com number 7h20s 777.com um my youtube channel is thomas tv i'm leaving for utah in a few days issue dedicated content for it which I'm excited about. As time goes on, we're going to do more with that, but I got a lot going on right now. I'll be dropping more along for them, like books like in the spring.

You know, season two of the pod is coming up in September. Yeah, all kinds of stuff, man. I appreciate it. Safe travels. Until the next time. Air grid. Operator of Ireland's electricity grid is powering up

the northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together, we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash Northwest.