The Pete Quiñones Show - Italy's Devastating 'Years of Lead' w/ Patrick from Surviving Weimerika

Episode Date: April 25, 2026

92 MinutesPG-13Patrick is the host of the Surviving Weimerika podcast.Patrick joined Pete to give an overview of one of the least talked-about periods of violent, terroristic revolution in the 20th century: Italy's "Years of Lead," which lasted from 1968 to 1988.Patrick's YouTube ChannelPatrick's Odysee ChannelPatrick's TelegramPete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanena show. I'm here with Patrick. Patrick, how are you doing today? I'm doing good. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, man. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself. First time on the show.

Okay. First of all, this is quite an honor to be on the show. Basically, I host a little podcast, which is sort of in the deepest corridors, I would say, of the web. It's not very well known, but I've interested. interviewed some rather noteworthy people on my podcast. I've had the fortune of doing that. So what I do is initially it started out as kind of an identitarian podcast. And I decided to sort of shift my analysis from identityitarian politics to everything from survivalism to stuff like more complex sort of metapolitical topics and historical topics. And, but

primarily, that's sort of within the realms of identityitarian politics and also like extreme politics as it relates to modernity America. I've been really getting into history, obviously, having Thomas 777 averaging like an episode a week for, you know, over a year now and doing as much, as many other history podcast as I can. So when you reached out and you wanted to talk about. something that I had heard of, but not something that I haven't, I didn't really dive deep into. And also something that, you know, I was alive when it was happening. Sure.

Yeah, I want to hear about it, especially since the intrigue of the parties involved. So you reached out and you said that you want, would I be interested in talking about a little period in Italian history, the 1968 to 1919. 88, the main period called the Years of Lead. How'd you get into it? Practically, I looked into the Years of Lead after getting involved with this thinker by the name of Franco Freda. I had heard about this thinker from a person I have interviewed on my podcast by the name of, that was his name, Zero Schizo.

And if you look at my archives, you can probably find that epitone, that episode. where we try to discuss it, albeit many of my guests and broken English because they are from Peru and Mexico respectively. So I was interested in this period because of Franco Freda primarily because Franco Frater, as I'll get into later, is a very fascinating and interesting character and also a what you would call a neo-fascist. That's what scholars call them. I don't think Frater himself would probably call him a neo-fascist. he would see himself in the mold of a revolutionary, both combining national socialism and Maoism, two things that are very contradictory.

But he's also, one, I would say the premier accelerationist. Because I wanted to understand sort of how accelerationism molds the political landscape as things start to shift from the extreme right to the extreme left. It's sort of like a pendulum, you know, it fluctuated. and oscillates back and forth in American society. And I think America has never seen these sort of extremes. It's seen sort of individual sort of extremes and third parties, but it's never seen the extremes that Italy, you know, has seen. And it really fascinated me to be, too,

because a lot of the sort of neo-fascist groups and even a lot of the leftist groups have a sort of perspective that I've seen on a lot of the more fringes on the right. And that's why I sort of got it into the years. I got into the years of lead. Well, I think probably the most interesting part of it is when you start looking at who was involved. And for lack of a better term, just the belligerents that were involved. It was just far left, far right.

CIA was in there. Yes. Gladiot was a part of it. This could be considered. This could be considered a part of the Cold War, in essence. And when you look at who allegedly supported some of these people, some of the parties involved, I mean, this goes as deep as anything I've ever seen. Absolutely. And that's part of why I got interested in it because as America starts to get more gridlocked in terms of democracy, in my opinion, starts to fail.

I believe you're going to see more of the rise of the extreme left and the extreme right to coincide into potential violence. We haven't seen that now, but I believe in that we have seen that to, you know, a small extent. And there have been, you know, eras of violence in American history from like the anarchist. Well, what's funny is people will tell you, people will tell you, oh, Antifa and what happened the summer of 2020. I mean, that's just horrible. It's incredible that that happened in the United States. There were literally terrorist attacks all through the 60s and 70s in major cities. People forget all of the friggings that happened in the 1970s.

You know, take me to Cuba, take me to Puerto Rico. People hijacking. I mean, it was, what we've seen so far in the last few years has been, you know, pretty, or at least since Trump or, you could say Ferguson, Missouri really helped to kick this off. But you ain't seen nothing compared to what could. Yeah. And I say that as could. And actually, there is a sort of an analog in Italian history to what happened on January 6th.

There was where the neo-fascist actually occupied, the Minister of Interior and tried to stage a coup that was in 1970 by the guy named Borghese, who was a former, former sort of squadron leader of the fascist. His name was Borghese, and they did stage a coup, and at the last minute, it was sort of cold off. So I think there are a lot of analogous kind of features of the years of lead, which we will, we see on both sides.

I don't know if you really could call. idealistically, the people of January 6th, neofascist in the same sense. But yes, you definitely see these sort of parallels between the two societies. The only thing I will say is the way that the left and right are structured in Italy is they're a little different than Americans in that they sort of have a cultural landscape and a cultural milieu to sort of tap into Americans. No disrespect to anyone. are sort of formless, and they sort of are just consumerist. There really is no romantic notion of America anymore like there was, let's say, you know, during the frontier, even like in the 50s, there is no, and during the 50s, I think that's when sort of the romanticism of America started to wane. The neo-fascist, and I'm just calling them that just for the sake of brevity and the leftists saw Italy as

something to culturally tap into, and that's something I see that is different from America itself. America itself, like I said, doesn't have the institutions, it doesn't have sort of the culture that Italy had at the time, and I will say this, that Italy itself has a very rich history in revolutions, and that goes back to the resigemento. That goes back to the resigimento. That goes back to during that period when there was a guy named Mazini, Jerobaldi, and there were many other sort of Italian patriots. Now, what's interesting about Jerobaldi was, of course, I would say the warrior faction of the Risojiminto.

Mazini was more of the thinker. Mazini was never appreciated within his time period, but he took the formations of the 18-19. 48 revolutions throughout Europe and he decided to put a uniquely sort of Italian stamp on it. He was a big proponent of secret societies. He was a big proponent of something called the Carbonari, not to be mistaken by the Cabanieri or the, they were actually this kind of mystical sect that people think may have formed many of the mafias in Italy itself.

So the lodge system in Italy, and that will play a big part in the years of lead, because of course there was this lodge called the propaganda due. That was where a lot of the sort of neo-fascist and even some of the Christian Democrats sort of hit out and was able to, you know, front for a lot of the state actors, which were helping out those sides. Well, in Italy, there's a dual lodge system. That is, a visible lodge, and an invisible lodge. So unlike other forms of masonry,

this had kind of a unique stamp of Italian stamp on it, and Mazzini took full advantage of that. Now, Mazzini is interesting because he rejected the socialism of Karl Marx. He was a friend of Adam Wisehop. This has led to a lot of speculation such as the very sensationalistic letter that people often tout as Mazzini and Albert Pike. That's largely a fabrication. But Mazzini was motivated by the nationhood, by Italy finally overcoming the hegemony of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

He was tired of Italy being under the hill. And Italy, of course, was divided into sort of. three zones. The only place, of course, being free was the kingdom of Piedmont. And he assembled a group of people called the young Italians. The young Italians decided to strike out. And that's one misconception people think they have about Italy itself. Italy was always a violent place.

It was always a place of revolt. And this is like distinctly seen. in Mazzini's revolution and Garibaldi's revolution but also many of the early sort of anarchist that made up the Italian landscape they always embraced the sort of notion

of death, this notion of like warriorhood, this notion of like these democratic ideals could not overcome them and this is like Mazini even though he was sort of into democratic ideals. He was also a pan-Europeanist. And I think he was probably one of the first pan-Europeanist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the notion of pan-Europeanism really became,

was prominent during the time during the late 1800s. Correct me if I'm wrong, if that's the case. As far as I know that that movement, if that movement existed, it would have been splinter. Well, yeah, Mazini was a pan-Europeanist. He wanted to see a unified Europe at that time. And I know in our scene, there's a lot of people to think that connotes a kind of nefarious sort of notion. And also, what's interesting about Mazini is there was a, you're a younger person by the name of Bakunin, which, if you're familiar with like the early sort of history of anarchism, Bakunin, Bakunin and Mazini, what, he actually was inspired by Mazzini about the secret

society. Lazzini didn't believe in the pageantry or any of the metaphysics of free masonry. He simply used the Masonic lodge as sort of a political tool. He saw it as like he secularized masonry and saw it as a means to sort of rebel against both the Vatican and the monarchy at the time, which I think a lot of people in your audience are probably reactionaries and they're pro-monarchy. But this is around the time during 1848 when monarchy was sort of being questioned and these liberal ideals of nationhood were coming to the forefront and Italy was no exception. Italy was matter of fact the last probably to adopt of any of these notions because it was seen as a backwater like Italians and Italian nationhood was sort of just

seen as under the heel of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and also the Vatican. And I think Evola he mentions this, the Ghibeline and the Gelfene, the Gifene, the Gififes, They mentioned the Ghibolines, of course, being the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Gelf, the Gelfines being sort of the Vatican, being the Pope. And those were the two sort of factions that were controlling most of Italy's history after the fall of Rome and after the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Now, the reason why I mention all this, and I'm going to move on, is because this set the stage for the, use of revolutionary violence. Revolutionary violence is very important throughout Italy's history, throughout Italy's formation. And as you can see, even many of the earlier people like the anarchist, and in fact, I have a thing I want to read from this particular anarchist named Renzo Novotore.

if people are not familiar with him, he was sort of the precursor of, or maybe influenced by sort of the embryonic stages of futurism. Futurism is a very strange, I will say ideology, but it is something that came within Italy itself, and it's something I believe set the stage for the radical extreme on the right and the left in Italy, and it made his stamp.

Um, proceeding that also, there was a group of people, like I mentioned, Bakunin, there was a guy named Sergi, Sergi, Sergi, Sergi, sorry if I'm mispronouncing these words, but he was a nihilist. He was this, this nihilist anarchist that spread all throughout Russia during the mid-1800s, uh, which was responsible for a lot of different, uh, assassinations. They were also, he developed the cell system, which you see a lot of revolutionaries, both on the left and the right, further use today. And this guy was adapted by a lot of the 60s radicals, including the Red Brigade, which I'm going to discuss. And he pretty much said that the path of a revolutionary is doomed. It's a person that they have to live, breathe, and sleep revolution.

They don't see any other recourse into developing this. Now, this is, like I said, I have not seen this sort of fervor in any other form of, you know, scenes in Europe. And matter of fact, I have not seen a parallel of the violence that was escalated in the years of lead. in any of the other sort of post-World War II countries. There was a little bit of radicalism with the Red Army faction in Germany itself, but the Red Army faction largely, I think, was largely a blip on the radar of, like, in largely German-speaking countries. But I think Italy sort of has a unique sort of revolutionary stamp on that.

So anyway, let me read this from Sergei Nekiv. The revolutionary is a dedicated man. He must not be driven by his personal impulses, but must be directed by a common interest of the revolution. For him, the only thing that is moral and that contributes to the triumph of revolution, all that obstructs that is immoral and criminal. And that is like the words of catechism of a revolutionary

by Sergei Nechiv. That was part of the milieu that contributed, I believe, to a lot of the early impetus of Italian anarchism, which would probably manifest itself in later times in the Red Brigade. And many, I would even argue,

many of the fascists, the divide between the fascism and anarchism in Italy itself and sort of how it's delineated is an interesting subject onto itself. And many people that are in Antifa will argue that the fascist stamp on anarchism or the anarchist stamp on fascism

is a point of contention to a lot of like modern day anarchist. Now, I'm personally not an anarchist myself, but I do find the subject rather interesting considering the fact that this is sort of the framework that a lot constructs a lot of the sort of post-monerical modern kind of left, especially the so-called revolutionary left, which I said largely in America, it's based on liberal ideals, mainly about identity as opposed to ideology. Now, this is something from Renzo Novotore.

He says, only the one who knows and practices the iconoclass fury of destruction can possess the joy born of freedom of that unique freedom fertilized by sorrow. Eyes rise up against reality and the outer world for the triumph of the reality of my inner world. I reject society for the triumph of I. I reject the stability of every rule, every custom, every morality, for the affirmation of every willful instinct. All free emotionality, every passion, and every fantasy. I mock every duty and every right so I can sing free will. I score in the future to suffer and enjoy the good, bad, and pray.

present. I despise humanity because it is not my humanity. I hate tyrants. I detest slaves. I don't want. I don't want and I don't grant solidarity because I'm convinced that the new chain and because I believe with Ibesen, the one is the most alone is the strongest world. One. This is my nihilism. And further, he says, we have killed duty. So our ardent desire for free brotherhood acquires heroic valor in life. We have killed pity because we are the barbarians capable of great love. We have killed altruism because we are the glorious egoist. We have killed philanthropic solidarity so that the social man unearths his most secret eye and finds the strength of the unique.

And that is Renzo Novotori towards a creative, nothing in other writings. It sounds like it could be the The Shining Path in Peru could have adopted that. They're probably the most, probably the most nihilistic of all the communists in the 20th century. Oh, yeah. Shining Path is an interesting, interesting anarchist group. But yes, I think they probably did adopt a lot of the Russian nihilist. The reason why I'm reading this is because I'm trying to produce a backdrop of sort of what influenced a lot of, of both the fascist and the leftist.

And I will say also another prominent thinker that is very important is Cyril, George S. Surreal. George Souril, of course, and his reflections upon violence, he emphasized that the violence of the proletariat was a sort of measuring stick for class and a strengthening and kind of a curse. and kind of a cleanser of sort of the bourgeoisie.

And I think this appealed to a young Mussolini very much. Mussolini, who at the time was a socialist when he was reading Sorrel, or Sorrel, really was impressed by this and really was impressed that there was sort of a syndicalist thinker, such as Sorrell that was embracing sort of Nietzschean, you know, concepts of overcoming and not, not, you know, emphasizing kind of, you know, the oppressed or that our sorrow should be a main, you know, staple of, you know, kind of leftist thinking or that, you know, the oppressed. Well, Thomas has done two episodes. We've done two episodes together on Sorrell, on reflections, on violence.

I keep a copy of it on my desk with me. You know, Thomas said Sorrell is what Nietzsche should have been. I actually agree because Sorrel was kind of proactive, unlike Nietzsche was sort of not pro-a. Nietzsche just sort of wallowed and sort of in his own nihilism as much as he wanted to overcome. So I kind of agree with that, that Sorrell kind of put Nietzsche's thoughts into praxis as opposed to just, you know, lingering and belentering. I agree with that 100% about his observations about Surreal. But I think this inspired, and this, of course, inspired Giovanni Gentile, who was also inspired by Hegel, who came up with a concept called actualism, who saw sort of the state as a. necessary function to move history as opposed to like class antagonism.

So that's a little backdrop about some of the foundations about, you know, the ideological foundations I believe that are very essential to the years of lead. That is Bakunin, his concept of, you know, violence and the commune, the eternal commune, the concept George Sarel and his concept of like a heroic violence. In addition to that, also the concept of Sergei Natchev and the horror, of course, the nihilist revolutionary, which would later sort of influence the Red Brigade. Also, one central feature that I've noticed with the left, that's maybe some commonality in America itself, is the use of criminals, which I believe,

according to Marx would be called the Lumpin Prol. However, to the Red Brigade, the Red Brigade believed that the prisons were fertile grounds for recruitment, for their revolt against the state and their Marxist-Leninist expression. They saw the prisons as a fertile ground of sort of recruitment. And I believe that's some commonality with the left in America,

but I think there's some vast differences there. Like I said, the Italian landscape is a little different from America in that largely, I don't want to stereotype Italians or Italy because it is a good culture, but there is some streams of corruption in terms when, you know, the state and criminals and politics. radical politics come into play. In many cases, maybe the Red Brigade

and maybe even the fascists themselves who also recruited, I would say, from the criminal underworld, really didn't have a choice in terms of who their bagmen were. So let me get into sort of the post-World War II Italy.

Excuse me. Now post-war II Italy is an interesting study onto itself because you have, like I said, the division between North, Central, and South Italy. These things are important geopolitically. And this is an important portion of meta history. The Allied forces largely disposed of the Salo Republic.

The Sallo Republic was the remaining public of the fascist that was still remaining in 1940, in the early 1940. to the mid-1940s. Now, at the same time, and I want to say that in terms of the years of lead, there's many different things in the backdrop that's going on simultaneously in tandem with one another. And there's many layers to this. And I want to illustrate this to the audience that understand that there's many different layers to Italy and the foundations of Italy. Well, the Americans, I believe, people like James, Jesus, Anger,

And I don't want to get too far into like conspiracy territory because, you know, this topic can lead to a lot of like conspiracy and a lot of different layers in Italians from what I've researched to what I've looked into. They really love conspiracies. They really love conspiracies. But anyway, a very important player in Italy's sort of foundations, of all people, is James Jesus Engleton. James Jesus Angleton had this notion because of his experience with Kim Filby and Kim Filby was this sort of spook that was part of the British intelligence that was also a double agent and because of this incident James Angleton

James Jesus Angleton decided that it would probably be a good proactive measure to try to stop communism from spreading into portions of Western Europe. And at that time, it was really important to keep communism out of places like, you know, it was rather failed,

but it was important to keep it out of like Central when, you know, expending any further into like, you know, places like Yugoslavia, etc. The Czech Republic. They didn't want it to spread there because Italy was a very important sort of geopolitical position for for them to have to seize upon. Well, he decided because his father also had many friendly relations with Bousseleney. Now that fascism is sort of condemned in America, it's important to note that America itself used to be on friendly relations with Bousseleney. when Mussolini rose to power, many people thought he was sort of a prodigal.

They thought he was sort of the answer to a lot of the problems that was with socialism and democracy. So they sort of herald him as a figure. There was a lot of friendly gestures to America. Well, Angleton's father was a businessman. He established a lot of factories and managed a lot of factories in Italy. itself. And his son lived there for a little while. And I think this made an impression upon his son, just like the Kim Filby incident. So what Angleton decided to do is he decided to collude with a lot of the former fascist that were getting liberated by the resistance.

So America was using the resistance. At the same time, it was sort of working with the fascist. That's kind of how American geopolitics work. It's anything that's Machiavellian. that can work on either political extreme, they will utilize that to maximize that to its fullest extent. And Angleton was doing this. He devised and he was in charge of the Italian desk up until I believe 1946. I think he was uninstalled.

But still, Gladio, stay behind networks, largely in Italy, probably where the, probably was the work of James Jesus Angleton. We'll never know for sure if that is like the definite person who started this, because like I said, a lot of Italian history around this part is kind of, this point is kind of murky on all sides. But we do know that the intelligence agencies were heavily fixed into Italian politics at this time.

And the communist were gaining a lot of foothold in the northern portion of Italy. there's no doubt about it. Around post-war II, there was a lot of industrial development due to the Marshall Plan. A lot of southerners, a lot of people from southern Italy who were more agrarian

started to migrate to places like Milan, Padua, all these different places in northern Italy, which later I believe will be hotbeds in Tuscany, which will be hotbeds of both neo-fascist and also like leftist sort of extremism.

So it's important to note that that is like these are like the the ground levels. These are the players. So what they did is they divided these different parties. They made the Christian Democrats. The Christian Democrats were sort of these moderate. They had a coalition of both center rights, center left people. There was of course the PCI. They were a Italian communist group.

They were largely sort of sedued. They were kept out of elections. It didn't stop their popularity, of course, because northern Italy, for whatever reason, has always been a hotbed with the exceptions of places like Venice or Tuscany of leftist, communist sort of extremism. It's always been a hotbed of that. I don't know why that is. It always seems like the further closest to the Germanic speaking, you know, the German-speaking, you know,

the German-speaking sort of nations, it seems to have sort of these progressive or liberal ideas seem to appeal to a lot of these groups. I don't know whether it may be. Maybe there's a bio character, maybe there's something biological in there that's intertwined with their politics. But this is a very hot spot for that. This is a very...

So there also was it, in addition to that, the MSI. The MSI was a fascist group. it was a fascist script and I will note unlike Nazi Germany there was never a there was never any kind of a defastification if that's even a word of

Italy there was never any kind of cleansing of the Italian infrastructure of fascists fascists were ingrained and they were entrenched in all of the military and all of the

all the different sectors you know the military sectors the police sectors and the state intelligence sectors. So they didn't really cleanse, you know, if that's appropriate word, they never really cleansed, you know, Italy of any of the sort of fascist infrastructure.

And this continued on the day. That's why I think Angleton and some of the intelligence agencies were able to sort of collude with one another against the communists. Well, 1948, 1948 rolls around and the communists are gaining momentum. The communists are gaining momentum.

This is the first time in Italy's politics, they interfere with the elections. Now, let me just emphasize. I'm not pro-communists. I need to illustrate that I'm not pro-communist. I'm just stating what is a historical fact. America, for better or worse, interfered with the elections of Italy. And I think this will probably set the trend in America interfering in many different elections across the globe. but part of the ground zero was in Italy.

And they stopped. They put the Christian Democrats in a position of power. And I believe this antagonized not only the leftists who saw the, the communists saw the Christian Democrats and also even the mainstream communist party as being sort of interlopers and not true representation of their ideology. So this like lock the system. This provided a type of gridlock that we see in today's democracies. This provided a kind of, this paved the way for the years of lead.

And with the MSI, however, the initial person they installed was actually anti-U-N. Now, America didn't like that America didn't like, and they didn't like the fact that they were anti-Natal, anti- anti-NATO and anti-UIN. They didn't like that at all. They wanted to uninstall him. So they did and they put in a more friendly sort of moderate fascist candidates.

So like I said, this caused a lot of splinter. This caused a lot of derision in the MSI. And like I said, all these things are going on in tandem in the backdrop. And it just created sort of a, elaborate teen sort of mess in Italy itself and made sort of things kind of convoluted and really paved the way for extremism. Fast forward, fast forward to 1960. Well, actually,

let me go back to 1957. 1957, there is a new party. This is a more extreme party. This is called the Nuevo Ardain. This is the National. order. This was started by a guy named Pino, Ratou, Ratoui. And he, of course, would have under his tutelage, both a guy named Stefano de la Chiay and also Franco Freida, which I'm sure people in your audience know who Franco Freida is. They may not be that acquainted with Stefano de la Chiay. Now, the radical faction of the, you know, fashion. Can we just say? Sorry. Frank O'Fraid is still a lot. Yeah, he's still alive, yes.

Yeah, he's 82. Yeah. It'd be really cool to interview him. If anybody could get an interview with them. Yeah. That would be really awesome if someone could do that. And I'm kind of, I'm impressed, you know, who in Franco Frida is. That's pretty awesome.

That's pretty awesome. But like I said, people don't know who's Stefano de la Chiay and he's actually kind of just as important as Franco Freida himself because they actually colluded with one another and they also now I've heard people say Franco Frida was largely responsible for most of the

terrorist activity that occurred during the years of lead this is actually incorrect the guy who was largely the bagman and is very elusive is Stefano de la Chiay and this guy is as fascinating as Franco Freda. So Stefano de la Chiay

he decides to he wants to start his own party he doesn't like the MSI. He doesn't like the Nuevo Ardene. He starts the avantaglia He starts the avantaglia which is the new the new order not sorry not the new order but the let me find yeah he starts

at the avant-garde national vanguard national yes yes sorry national vanguard yes sir he starts the national vanguard and he decides he decides to take politics in a more sort of extreme manner. Now, I have held off on mentioning the strategy attention, but I'm going to mention here right now about the strategy attention. Well, strategy attention, there's some controversy about its origins. You could attribute it maybe to, you know, the state actors, which were colluding with the CIA and Gladiou, but I think that's a little bit too simplistic. because people like Stefano de la Chiay and Freda himself actually wanted to they wanted to accelerate the destruction of the state.

They did not respect the sort of Democratic Republic, which was installed by America. They saw it as decadent. They saw it as degenreate. They saw it as entrenched in sort of Americanism and the purveyor of liberalism all across Europe. They wanted something that is more heroic. They wanted something that is more warrior-like.

And they believe the only means that you could develop this society was through blood. They didn't believe you could compromise with the state. They didn't believe there was political action. They believed simply that you had to attain this sort of. And they sort of had a metaphysical understanding. of attaining the statehood through the works, and I'm sure your audience knows, of Julius Ivola. And they were especially fond of a particular book called Ride the Tiger.

They were, which in that book, I believe, Evola says, and I have read it, A Volus says that a holy warrior basically is based upon war. The person has to bring about a new order, bring around a new sort of like what he said, aristocracy, you know, of the soul through war. You couldn't like mince words. And I think this fire that Evola had and the adaptation, the adaptation of Evola's principles to by Stefano Di La Chiai and also to Freida, it harkens back to Sorrell. It harkens back to people like Renzo Novitori.

It harkens back to, you know, even I would say even to Mazini to where there was like the spirit to where the modern day world, democracy, Americanism is like a corrosive rot in Italy itself. It's a rot, it's a disease that's spreading all throughout society. And I will contrast sort of the notions of the fascist versus the, you know, leftist, sort of the communist in that they kind of wanted the same thing, but they wanted a different ideal. the communist didn't care about aristocracy they didn't care about sort of a new spiritual sort of aristocracy they instead wanted sort of a proletariat sort of dictatorship based upon pure marxist and lenitist praxis ideology the the communists in the state they wanted to do things through more they wanted to compromise they wanted to do it more through state action people like the Red Brigade, they wanted to strike the system just like Freda.

And I think that's probably why Freida decided it was good to strike up a relationship with the left and the right. Now, Frida, of course, didn't get much popularity. He was not very popular in his time. And I think there's probably more people on the internet that sort of appreciate Freda, you know, and accelerate. his brand of accelerationism, more so than anybody at the current, like, contemporary.

Like, Freida was considered, I think, a nut by most the left and the right. He was sort of a marginal figure. Now, let me go back to strategy attention. The strategy attention came about in a meeting between Pino, Ratu, Stefano de la Chiai, Frida. and a various other neo-fascist. They had a meeting in 1964, and there probably were plenty state actors there.

There were probably people from the P2 Lodge. There were probably people from the CIA. There were probably various different, like state actors that were acting as, you know, officials and sort of brokering between the two sort of factions. And a matter of fact, what's interesting is the MSI itself sort of used the neo-eastern, fascist themselves as sort of broke as sort of bag men.

They sort of saw the NO and the AV as sort of like people that you could, they were actors upon the state, people from which you could easily utilize and then discard. So they saw them as bag men to dispense violence across Italy. And like I said, this is all still very controversial. however make of what you will say about violence but obviously at this time they thought that was a very good strategy they thought the CIA state actors in Italy thought it was all something that should be maximized to its fullest extent now strategy attention said that they would they would do

terrorist acts and they would blame it on the left now the left let me just tell you the left is no stranger to violence. As we can kind of, as I discussed earlier, sort of the dictates that it was based upon, you know, the anarchist, Italy's history of the left has, you know, been tremendously bloody. And they did not mind utilizing the left. And the left didn't, did mind. The only pronounced difference, I will say, between leftists and rightist sort of strategy, attention, violence was that the right tended to focus on bombing public areas. And the left, they liked to kidnap magistrates, public officials.

They did something called kneecapping. Kneecapping was where they would shoot someone in the kneecap. I don't know where they got that method from, but that was a very popular method amongst the left at the time. They would actually kidnap, you know, these different middle management, factory workers and engineers and chain them up to different factories.

So it was not unheard of because simultaneously as the strategy attention was unfolding, there was also like, this was soon to be the hot autumn in 1968, which was the spread of this sort of leftist, these leftist notions that were adopted

from France and from America itself, kind of their equivalent of the 1960, you know, 1960s in America. So they started to adopting these like sort of radical, you know, these radical ideologies within their, you know, within their milieu. So like I said, the use of violence was not unknown to the left. So like they thought this, the State Department of Italy, the State Intelligence and the CIA and probably a lot of the neo-fascists said, well, they don't like one another. They were very strange bedfellows. And oftentimes when I read stuff about Freidaur and Stefano de la Chi, I often wonder the people

that are examining, you know, these people, just as their analysis to the left, do these people really understand or truly want to understand why such terrorism sort of manifest? itself. What causes this? What central thing about democracy seems to irritate people to the extent to where they want to lash out at the system very violently, to where they shut out any kind of, let's just say heroic notions or any kind of notions of valiancy or warriorhood or like, it's like almost like neoliberalism and postmodernism. It doesn't matter that these notions. It's, Italy is democratic.

Everyone is represented. And everybody has a representative. Everyone has their say. And therefore, it invalidates or nullifies any kind of tradition, which any of this country had. It doesn't mold or shape itself to the tradition of the country. It simply sort of creates this aberration. for what I've seen of democracy. And they don't have this notion that, you know,

maybe there's something wrong with democracy itself. Every single scholar I've read on the Years of Lead, they don't want to qualify what causes this. You know, they're very vague about what causes this. Now, one thing that's interesting also preceding the Years of Lead, which sort of shows state collusion, was this incident that occurred a coup. in 1965 called the piano solo.

This is where a neo-fascist and also some of the state actors wanted to destroy sort of the communist centers. They also wanted to destroy. They wanted to kidnap and hijack sort of the government at the time. And what's interesting about that is that many people believe this is kind of a false flag. I don't know how people feel about false flags, but the Italian politician of Aldo Morrow, which in later times, which was kidnapped by the Red Brigade in 1978, they tried to actually kidnap him. They tried to exile and deport, you know, filmmakers like Pasolini, who was an Italian communist filmmaker.

He did the Sallow Days of Sodom. They wanted to hijack the television industry, the communications, and they wanted to occupy government buildings. And this was largely the mastermind, I would say, of the Italian state. Department, to Italian intelligence. And of course, again, they were using the neo-fascist sort of as bagman to utilize this. Excuse me. Now, what I wonder about this, maybe you can fill me in with this, Pete, is what do you think about, you know, this sort of state intelligence in Italy itself, sort of utilizing the neo-fascist as bagman? I mean, it would seem to line up with, with gladio, with what we know about gladiou.

You know, we asked a question, why was there not a denotification in Italy? Well, I mean, I think it's obvious. I mean, I think that's just, if you know anything about gladiou, that question answers itself. But, I mean, I've often wondered why, I mean, I understand Italy was a central sort of geopolitical point. And I believe the same thing is going on right now with Ukraine. I hate to veer off topic, but I think Ukraine parallels a lot with the years led in that they're sort of, they're utilizing, in my opinion, the far right to implement a lot of the neoliberalism in America and Ukraine itself. That's very controversial, I know. But that seems what they're doing.

It seems like the far right are always willing actors of sort of the CIA. or the State Department of intelligence, they always latch on. And I'm just going to say, I believe that the far right has some healthy instincts about tradition about. Well, the right. I mean, Thomas talks about this in our Spanish Civil War series, and there's no fascist international. So, but you have, if you have a leftist or a communist or any kind of leftist movement,

pop up in a country, especially back then, there's international money flowing in. Anything that would pop up from the right, you know, and people are going to be like, well, these guys weren't right wingers and everything. It's like, these are European right wingers. It's a different thing. Have some nuance shut up. If they're motivated, they're basically willing to take their money wherever they can get it. And unfortunately, it seems like a lot of the time, a lot of the time when, um,

You know, I know Pinochet, basically for the coup, took help from the CIA, but he immediately kicked them out. I mean, I have the CIA, I have the CIA's file on him. They hated that guy. I mean, he was not a CIA puppet. He used the CIA, which is, I mean, one of the reasons why, you know, the man was brilliant. But I think it's just more of anything that you don't have international support. right wing movements don't have international support like left wing movements do so right wing movements take support wherever they can get that's that's good assessment um but what i did

discover however as when i was investigating in the years of lead is stephano de la chi i actually was an international thinker he was a person that thought geopolitically internationally now whether that was by coercion, by coercion by the CIA or by, you know, other factors, he had the wherewithal to strike out alongside the OAS. I don't know if you're familiar with the, if your audience is familiar. I'm not going to underestimate the intelligence to your audience, but I think they're probably familiar with the OAS. The OAS was this French sort of pro-colonial force that was going throughout Algeria, and they were fighting against, you know, the former, you know, anti-colonialist movements. Well, Chiay actually struck up sort of a friendship or an alliance with the OAS, which of all places was actually going through this, this particular publishing company called a Jenter Press.

I don't know if anyone's heard of that, but Aginter Press was this publishing company. It was really a front for a paramilitary organization that many people think might be a front for the CIA or some intelligence agency. It was based in Portugal. But Chiay had the sort of tact to initiate a relationship with them, to use them to disperse his message. And this also is interesting is he also struck up kind of a, there was no international, but there was a group of people in Spain and Francois Spain that was largely sympathetic to the neo-fascist in Italy that did harbor them. This was made comprise of Otto Scorsani.

I believe DeGrelle was a member. I believe Ramer. I believe many of these former sort of national socialist and fascists were sympathetic to the Italian neo-fascist. So Stefano Della Chiay, especially, and this will pertain to the Piazza Fontana bombing. The Piazza Fontana bombing was a cataclysmic event in Italy's history. This is the first time that we sort of see the strategy of tension take root. And largely this is considered to be, the authorities at the time didn't see it as the brainchild.

to Franco Freda, although they will round it up later, and they also rounded up Stefano D.L. Chiai. They saw it as the brainshot of the anarchist. There was this particular anarchist from which they threw out the window. They actually interrogated him, this officer by the name of Luigi Calabrese through this anarchist out the window to his death

and called it a suicide. In investigation later proved that it was largely the Italian cops did throw the anarchist out the window during 1969. Now, what's interesting about Stefano Dela Chiai, he put his money where his mouth is in terms of the stratagem or the strategy attention, is that he was allegedly trying to utilize the local, this anarchist, which was hopping from the neo-fascist to the anarchist to the anarchist to the, the left is by the name of, I believe his name is Merlin, Merri-Linda. And now, Merri-Lindo claims that he was not a neo-fascist. He was not a part of that. But he belonged to the same neo, the same anarchist faction that this particular anarchist that got thrown out of the window in, during due to,

to interrogation. Now, of course, like Freda was was brought in for questioning and tried, and I believe it was, he, in his entire sentence, they never proved that Freda was responsible for the Piazza Fontana, largely because they couldn't match the detonator that he used and the sort of German leather that he used for the bombs that was throughout, you know, Padua at the time or Milan. they couldn't like match up you know any of these these factors and he claimed of course there was a particular Algerian that gave him the detonator um but what's interesting about frida is you know frida sort of shows that there was collusion with the state department and the state department uh locked his uh you know

he locked the whole information in kind of a box a security box to where uh he could get to to prove that he was colluding with like state actors. But nevertheless, um, 1969 sent kind of chills down, you know, Italian spine. It sent chills down their spine because like,

oh, I think over 14 people died, 88 people were injured in the entire blast. And while there had been like violence and coups and, uh, especially leftist violence in the north, uh,

you know, in the factories and kidnapped. things. This was probably the incident and the turning point in the years of lead. This is what really kicked off the years led. And this also inspired, didn't deter a lot of leftists from also practicing sort of their extremism. The leftists actually were motivated by this. The Red Brigade were just gaining, you know, steam at this time, which was founded in a university coincidentally in the same area of Trent, Trento, by Renato Carushi and also Margarita, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing Margarita.

Magarita Cargo. Cagle, yes, Kaggle. They founded the Red Army faction around in, you know, 1970. By the way, Gourcio, he's still alive, too. Who's that? Renato Gortio, he's still alive, too. Oh, he's in prison, yes. What an interesting story he has, though.

What an interesting story. I would even like to talk to him if I could speak Italian proficiently. I mean, the things he would probably tell me. Because, like I said, some of the interesting facts about the Rebrigade is, you know, they had so many people that were infiltrating them at the time. You know, they had so many people that were infiltrated. And I think this sort of applies to our scene now. is there's all these groups now that, you know, people call them feds.

They call like Patriot Front Feds. They call, you know, each other online feds. They had this sort of discourse to where this like suspicion of everybody. And maybe that's justified. But the Italians at the time were no different. They were suspicious of everybody and everybody that was in their group. So I think the other person that found that the Red Army, the the red brigade was a guy named um francisi francisi uh i think it was his name he was like

one of the earlier founders along with uh kagu and and uh ranato karushi and he he largely suspected there was this earlier adopter of like the red brigade of and he quickly after joining the Red Brigade, decided to defect to, you know, this was around the time when they were capturing, they were kidnapping and capturing sort of magistrates, and then we're starting to get a little bit more violent.

He defected to France, and he started this particular study, the school called the Hyperion Language School, which sort of was the leftist counterpart to the agenda press that I mentioned about, Stefano de la Chiay. And this has just been one conspiracy theory after another when it comes to Italian politics. No one could ever decide if, you know, there was a type of, there was a type of infiltration

and the Red Brigade, but there is no doubt that there was infiltration. You know, there was infiltration. I mean, I guess that that's a dilemma that you sort of have if you are an, open sort of group and you are a terrorist group at that. And even if you are like, you know, practicing the cell system, which they were doing in various these different cities, they were in the Italian north, they were doing, you still couldn't stop sort of federal infiltration. And there was like in 19, 1972, there was this person that infiltrated their cell.

and they started, they had to go underground because a lot of their people were getting locked up. A lot of their people were getting sort of thrown in jail. And then what's unique about, you know, Italy is that it doesn't, it didn't matter if like, you know, dissonance are people that were in these extreme, you know, political groups were getting locked up. They were seen in prison as heroes. the people in prison sort of saw them as heroes. And the prison at the time was so lax. It was so lax. There wasn't much infrastructure in keeping people in prison.

So literally, literally in the Red Brigade, there were, the leader, Renato, he got locked. He got locked up by the, largely by the work of a guy named DeCesia, DeCesia. again, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing that name, but this was a guy who was sort of battle-hardened by his dealing with the mafia and Sicily. And they decided to hire him to try to get rid of the menace, what the Italian state saw is the Minnesota Red Brigade. And this guy sort of utilized all the latest innovations of surveillance. He had everything He had everything to surveil the Red Brigade He would wire he'd wiretap

He'd send informants And yeah he's the one responsible for putting Karushi in jail He's the one pro-largely responsible for disbanding Of course it didn't disband the Red Brigade Because the Mara Magarita Kagul Was able Along with the Red Brigade to bust him out of

out of prison. And the funny thing is, is that while they were in prison, they were recruiting new people. They were just getting adherents left after right. And they didn't have a problem with recruiting the people. It was very popular. That's another central feature of like the Red Brigade is people don't understand. Antifa isn't very popular. But in Italy, it was very popular.

The Red Brigade was extremely popular. And the neo-fascist counterparts as well were very popular too. They weren't, I mean, people have this notion that people into like fascism or national socialists are sort of from the margins, the lowest tiers of society. Well, in this case, the neo-fascists were recruiting from universities. The extreme left were recruiting from universities. Frida himself was a lawyer and a well-endish. educated man. He was not a, he was not like a peasant. So the leadership at least, and even though they did draw from largely working class and even peasants on both sides,

the sort of like leading figureheads of all these factions were largely educated. Renato graduated, got a scholarship to the Institute of sociology. Oh, and just, and I know this is, this one's easy to forget. Renato was released from prison in 1998. Oh, was he? He's been, he's been free since 1998. Yeah, he's been free since 1998. He actually started a publishing company and started publishing leftist literature while he was in prison. Really? Yeah, I mean, he also was like reading books on explosives when they actually busted him out. When they busted him out when Margarita. Kagul busted him out of prison, he was actually reading, he was right there reading, you know, explosive manuals.

And Margarita Kagul, she, she wasn't so fortunate. She got killed, I believe, in 1975. I believe she got killed by 1975. Now, let me discuss an interesting character. And I think a lot of people should probably take heed to this that are activist about. the whole notion of infiltration into groups, whether you're extremist group or whether you're, you know, whatever. If you're, I don't,

by the way, I don't endorse any kind of violence, I disavow, but if you're like just an average sort of like, you know, group in America and the American system, because they are, for what I've seen,

a lot of these security think tanks, such as track and others, they are utilizing data. They've extrapolated from the years of lead. and tracking different groups, not even extremist groups, but just far right groups. I'm sure they do it to the far left more so,

but it seems like conversely in America, the far right, the far left is probably given a more of a free ride, just like they were kind of in Italy. There is like typically more favoritism, I think, to the FBI and to intelligence agencies,

probably to, you know, people like Antifa or leftists, maybe because they do, they see them as harmless. I don't know. But they definitely were not. I will say the left in America is nothing like the Red Brigade. They are nothing like the Red Brigade.

You may not like their ideology or their politics, but largely they were about their praxis. They knew their praxis inside and out, and they didn't mind destroying the system to try to implement a sort of Marxist-Lenin estate. They didn't want anything to do with Americanism. and this is one of the differences I've seen with the Italian left and sort of the European left is they are more traditional. You know, you discussed the Spanish Civil War and just to contrast those two things is the anarchists in the Spanish Civil War largely were going around desecrating, you know, holy relics. Like they were desecrating and, I believe, digging up, you know, priest and they were destroying like churches.

They were defecating. And this was also a pretty common, I think even in Romania, there were these like communists that were doing that desecrating sacred, you know, sacred sort of items. They didn't do this amongst the Red Brigade. The Red Brigade actually structured their practices through Catholicism. They actually structured a lot of their practice and a lot of their early adherents and a lot of their converts were Catholics. even though, and I wouldn't even say they were secular. I wouldn't say they were secular materialists like a lot of Marxist-Leninists were. They probably weren't the most adherent Catholics, but they were definitely not averse to religion.

That's one of the contrasting things I've seen with, like the left in Italy. And they also wanted their sort of Marxist-Leninist expression to be provincial, meaning they wanted to remain. and confined to Italy itself and not to expand internationally. They did sort of pay lip service to a lot of the liberation movements around the time, a lot of the anti-colonialist at the time, a lot to other sort of Marxist-Leninist factions

in communist states. But nevertheless, they really didn't care about those. They only wanted Italy itself to adopt Marxist-Leninist as that, you know, probably the dignity did. dictatorship of the proletariat. Other central feature, I will say, of like the left, is they had intellectual vanguards. They had people like Anthony Negri, who was outside of, like, Marx, considered to be probably one of the most premier Marxist scholars.

And many people actually thought that Anthony Negri was part of the kidnapping of Aldo Moro. you know, they actually thought he was instrumental. And he openly advocated in most of his publications that in order to bring about a Marxist-Leninist, you know, Republic. And they kind of wanted their own republic. They wanted to make the North sort of their Marxist-Leninist Republic, that you had to strike down the state through violence, through armed revolution. and as a matter of fact, I find it interesting that they sort of utilized, you know, Catholicism and I believe liberation theology. They used it as a means to justify a lot of their violent acts. You read a lot of like, you know, Red Brigade stuff.

They had this fervor about them to where they were religious. They were almost apocalyptic. They were, they were practicing this sort of millennarian sort of Christianity. and, you know, they, they were integrating this with Marxist Leninist. And this, I think this sums Anthony Negri. Now, Anthony Negri, of course, was let off. He was, he was not convicted of the Aldo Moro kidnapping. And he, guess what?

Like most Red Brigade, he went to France. There again, it highlights another, like, conspiracy theory. Antonio Nagy ended up teaching, teaching right alongside Derrida and Foucault and Duluth. Yes. Yes. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Isn't that interesting?

He did eventually go back to Italy and decided to, you know, he decided to like serve out the rest of his remainder of his sentence in Italy. And he's remained like free to this day. But, you know, that leads a lot. I think a lot to a lot of people in Italy that leads a lot of credence to the Hyperion schools might be, might be more valid as. sort of covers for, you know, political extremism and political violence, because it was also alleged that Carlos the Jacko, PLO, the RAF,

they were all getting trained at the Hyperion schools. There was this, like, networking, just like there was networking with the extreme rights and the fascist, the neo-fascist, which Stefano Dela Chiay, that I mentioned earlier, utilized himself to escape a lot of the investigations into the terrorist plots, according to Bologna bombings, which were probably the most devastating out of all of the terrorists in bombings and bombing attacks. He was able to be spirited away somehow to Latin America into places, you know, I believe in Bolivia. he set roots in Bolivia

and that's kind of odd that they were able to like transverse all across Latin America, maybe not, maybe it wasn't so weird but you mentioned there wasn't no fascist international there may not have been a fashion international but I think there was kind of an informal agreement amongst the fascist and amongst the extreme right and I think

I think DeGrelle helped a lot with that. Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. And definitely in the 50s, it was a lot. It was a lot more. And Scorsani. That's Scorsani as well. Yeah. In the 50s, people were still scrambling and, you know, basically hiding. And as, yeah, as the years went by, then there can be a little more people coming out of the shadows and coming together and doing some planning. let me mention after the Red Brigade after they were after you know marita cagou was was killed this of course the leadership went over to Mario Moretti he was the person that's believed that was the person behind the Aldo Moro kept you know kept sort of kidnapping and Aldo Mori himself is sort of a, he was a beloved Christian Democrat figure that still strikes a lot of mystery to this day amongst Italian politicians and Italian citizens.

They wonder exactly what happened to Aldo Moro on that faithful day, you know, as he was kidnapped in 1978 and later found in the boot of a car in later times. And he left all these notes, all these notes. the apartment, all these notes everywhere. And he actually implicated, I think, the prime minister at the time may have been behind his killing. Now, you're wondering how that he was acquitted, of course, but there was this other journalist by the name of Perko Raleigh that broke this story, Carmine Perkoelli,

that broke this story into the mainstream and sort of gave light to some of the political corruption at the time and he was fingered as the culprit, the prime minister at the time of Aldo Moro's sort of kidnapping. And what's interesting about Aldo Moro is what made him such a controversial figure

is he wanted to integrate the Communist Party into the mainstream of Italian society. He wanted to integrate them into Italian society. At the same time, he was also a big proponent of the Arabs in the Middle East crisis. And he pissed off quite a bit of Israeli and probably Mossad as well. He really made them angry about taking a very pro-Arab stance. And I can imagine he probably didn't make the, U.S. intelligence too, you know, too happy about that sort of geopolitical stance either.

So that could be some implications about Aldo Moro. It is a really strange case. I will say that Aldo Moro is kind of a noir for if you're really into noir, if you're really into, you know, I like to call it parapolitics even. If you're into that, although Aldo Moro case has all the trappings of JFK and it's, it's very interesting. but the guy that's agreed that did the whole ordeal was Mario Moretti and Mario Moretti was less idealistic I would say than Karushi and also Kagul

he was a bit more less idealistic he was more into violence a little bit more into kidnapping you know that that is like that's saying something considering what the Red Brigades were into Let me also mention that the Red Brigades ideologically modeled themselves off the Uruguayan movements and also the movements that were in South America at the time. One of their cherished sort of possessions was something called the mini manual of the urban gorilla, gala. This was a very popular pamphlets, and this is something they modeled. a lot of their kidnappings off of. And they took a hardline

malist third worldist sort of stance into implementing a lot of their measures. But the Red Brigade didn't what's really surprising is despite jailing the main proponent

of the Red Brigade and killing his wife and lover, they still did not lose steam in Italy. They were they were doing, people were doing terrorist acts up until 2003. There was still, you know, indications of the Red Brigade's sort of terrorist acts. And many of the Red Brigade after, after they lost a lot of their, you know, they lost a lot of their popularity in Italy. They fled, all they all fled to France.

France had this policy where it would welcome a lot of former, you know, leftist terrorist. to where they would, if they, you know, if they renounce their extremism and their terrorism, they could easily get French citizenship. I guess that kind of leads more, you know, sort of ammunition to the whole Hyperion language schools thesis that a lot of people have constructed. Yeah, I mean, what's interesting is, you know, even in 2021, one, there were still arrest, France arrested seven leftist militants, Georgio Pietro Stefani.

Yeah, I mean, there were, this is still going on. They're still looking for these. I mean, the thing is, is it, it's in such recent history that a lot of these people are just still alive. And Chiay was the neo-fascist terrorist, ideologue, was actually still alive until 2019. Yeah. And, you know, you could probably even, like, talk to him. And that's the thing about it.

Chiay was never fingered for any of the terrorist incidents at all because he was rather elusive when he gave interviews and probably had a lot of the state protection as well, a VI through the agenda press and through the black orchestra. Well, he did a lot of, he also did a lot of business in South America. So he spent time down there. Yeah. There actually is a point of his life in 75 to 77. that's like unaccounted for that we don't really know.

And that leads up to the Bologna train bombing. And what's interesting is that the second generation, the craziest thing about that bombing is, is that up until that point, the few years before, I mean, you had the kidnapping and assassination all the morrow, but it was just basically assassinations, assassinations, assassinations, assassinations. And all, and they were,

everyone was just asleep and then all of a sudden just boom. It's because the Aldo Moro kidnapping really opened their eyes. The Piazza Fontana bombing was important, I think, to Italy, but it was like such, there was such distance between the two, but they started to pay attention when a very prominent and beloved elected official started getting kidnapped and ended up killed. And you know what's weird about the Aldo Moro case? and I'm going to go here in speculative territory. I'm sorry if I sound,

I'm not trying to sound schizoid here, but this was actually practiced in like Italy itself amongst the politicians, supposedly amongst the educated politicians. They tried, when he was missing, they tried to do a seance to find out where he was. I kid you not. And a prominent Italian investigator,

and now politician, he tried to do a seance to summon the spirit of Aldo Moro. That was something that really happened on the congressional floor. That's 1978, people. Yeah, 1978. That was going on in Italian politics. That's crazy. That's probably one of the most craziest things about Italian politics itself. I didn't know there was like some of those.

It was some of that superstition that was in in Italian politics. Let's talk about the Bologna Massacre and then and then we'll start wrapping up and we'll see if we can pick up another time and, yeah, do a little bit more. Okay. The Bologna Massacre was largely a train station. it was this nexus that was going to between Rome and Milan. By the way, that was not the only bombing. There also was the Italicus bombings as well. But the people they believe was behind that,

they speculated for a long time that it might have been Carlos de Jekyll, considering it coincided with a lot of the sort of violence in Rome with the PLO at the time. But however, and that was decided in 2000. by some investigators. However, it's believed that the Italian neo-fascist group, the second-generation neo-fascist group called NAR, and I'm not going to even try to pronounce that. Exactly.

Yeah. Revolutionary. Yes, revolutionary. Yes, revolutionary. Yeah. Yeah, let's believe they were behind the corporates behind the bombing, and they largely were the people that were. they were largely the people that were isolated for, you know, for investigation for that.

It was, they were, I don't know if they were cleared or not of that bombing, but it was largely speculated that the guy that was behind that was either Stefano della Chi or a guy named Mario Tutti, which, by the way, has a connection to Freda and a pro-Libian fascist group, which, you know, there was a whole network, I think, that Freda and some of the people like his associates, like Claudio, multi, they sort of formed this like pro-Kaddafi sort of group. So Gaddafi was dabbling both in sort of the left and the right at the time. So it was like believed that those were the main culprits and the whole Bologna bombing. Yeah.

It was, I think initially it was Francesca Mambro and Valerio Fiorova. Theravanti, they got life in prison. And then in 2017, in 2007, they confirmed that they looked at Luigi Ciavardini and who had close ties to Terza. This is one that I have trouble pronouncing. Terza post-posizion. Post-Zo, yes. Third position. The third position.

Yeah, third position. and he got 30 years, 30 years in prison for that one. And one more thing before we wrap it up, I want to mention that, and this is like for further, maybe for a further show, but there was a particular Roman crime syndicate. And if people are not familiar, Rome is sort of the way it's structured. It has these different sort of gangs in its city. And I think it was called the Banda. the Banda were largely considered responsible also potentially for the bombings as well.

And they also tried to implicate them potentially in the Aldomoro kidnapping because they actually knew. The guy who was the leader of the Banda in Rome actually knew where Aldo Morrow was and tried to contact the Italian authorities, but they disregarded his tip. and which I said, I mentioned earlier, it's not an unusual function in, you know, Italian politics to kind of use the underworld. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, in the future, I mean, I think we could do a dedicated episode to propaganda do. Yeah, I'd like to.

I didn't mention that, but there's a lot into that. I didn't know if you wanted me to go into like conspiracy territory, but yeah, I'd love to do that. Well, I mean, is it really conspiracy territory?

Not really, but I mean, there's some people that consider it to be speculative. Sure. But they consider Gladiotio to be speculative, even though there's like, there's the Westmore papers. There's a lot of like evidence that it's, it did exist. Oh, man.

Well, um, before I go off here, Pete, let me ask you, why, why do you think people in our milieu don't like to tackle Gladiou? Because whenever I bring it up, there's, there's a lot of trepidation that is met in, you know, in this milieu about gladio. What do you think they dislike it? I don't know. Having, maybe having some kind of sympathy for it so they don't want to get it. Nobody wants to believe that, you know, people that they may have had a, yeah,

you know, may have leaned towards, you know, given a choice was operating and being controlled by the West by the CIA, which, I mean, we basically know who controls the CIA. I want to say also, this doesn't implicate, you know, neo-fascism or implicate national socialists, if that's your particular practice, and that's your political expression. I will say that it does sort of show that fascism and national socialism probably until it has a proper rejuvenation in society is largely a corpse that, in my opinion, was used by the CIA and used by the U.S., you know, they also like the Italian, even the State Department. It shows kind of that it was dead ideologically, but, I mean, I don't want to,

never mind, I'm not going to say what I'm going to say. Well, there were people who tried to keep it alive, Yaki. Yeah. Yeah. I try to keep it alive. And, you know, it just, uh, it was just too much, you know, what Thomas calls to Nuremberg regime. I mean, we, you know, we still, Normie Khan conservatives suffer when they say something just a little bit right when they get, they get shot down. So, and that's how, that's how far it's gone.

So, yeah, it's kind of, that's a, you know, that's a hundred pound. It's a fifth rail. It's a fifth rail. Well, it's, you know, it's also right now, it seems like an impossibility to even, you know, to challenge or to even just talk. I mean, why couldn't they do it again? My question is about glad you and all this. And I'll let you go. But why couldn't they do it again in places like Ukraine?

Like, I had been met with a lot of like scoring because I said that potentially. They're, you know, Ukraine could be another gladiou, no, 2.0 or 3.0, depending on how many, you believe there really are. Well, speculation. I wouldn't worry too much about scorn. What is scorn? Scorn is what people, people in the comments on Odyssey and Bichute. Yeah. They think I'm crazy for just even suggesting that as possibility.

I'm like, okay. Yeah, whatever. They're so smart. they're so smart it's like I said I've said this before the comments on your videos that's where intellect goes to die you're right

it's everybody it's all the you know it's all the people who are sitting out there and you know just it's like the fans the fans at a sports you know watching a sporting event

screaming at the screaming at the athletes and saying Oh, I could do it better and everything. Okay. Well, sure. Let's see you do it. Yeah, Monday morning quarterbacks. Yeah.

Let's see you do it. But tell people how they can find your work deep down there in the recesses of, okay. First of all, I want to thank Pete for bringing me on to a show to discuss the years of lead. I enjoyed this discussion. I love discussing this topic. If there's anybody else out there that wants to discuss this topic with me, I'm free. my podcast is surviving by America

which I will admit it it's not the most polished podcast it's at times you know I've had to like work with what I have in terms of guests and in terms of technical you know in terms of like technical sort of ability let's just say not on my part but on part of like the

you know the the YouTube and due to my limited resources but yes nevertheless I kind of like the low-scale production because it does show a certain authenticity. It harkens back to sort of like the pirate radio days. And nevertheless, you can find me at Surviving Vi-America on Odyssey, on BitShoot, and also on YouTube as well. And hopefully, Pete will put my YouTube in the descriptor.

Yeah. If you just send me whatever links you want me to include, and I'll include. and when I release this. And again, I want to thank Pete for giving me a chance to speak on, you know, years of lead. One of my, one of my favorite subjects because it has so much, I think, relevance to the political terrain we're going into in the modern era.

It's also very European. I mean, it really shines a light on European politics on the fact that right wing and left wing are different in Europe. from whatever, you know, we want to call. I mean, there's just, it really shows that, you know, that language, language and labels, they're interchangeable and they're, they mean different things in different parts of the world.

Yep. There's a lot more nuanced in Europe. I can tell you that. That's for sure. Thanks, Patrick. Thank you. Thank you, Pete.