The Pete Quiñones Show - Reading Solzhenitsyn's '200 Years Together' w/ Dr Matthew Raphael Johnson - Part 71

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

56 MinutesPG-13Dr. Matthew Raphael Johnson is a researcher, writer, and former professor of history and political science, specializing in Russian history and political ideology.Pete and Dr. Johnson continue a project in which Pete reads Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's '200 Years Together," and Dr' Johnson provides commentary.Dr Johnson's PatreonDr Johnson's CashApp - $Raphael71RusJournal.orgTHE ORTHODOX NATIONALISTDr. Johnson's Radio Albion PageDr. Johnson's Books on AmazonDr. Johnson's Pogroms ArticleThe Orthodox Nationalist: Karl Marx “On the Jewish Question” (1844)Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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with vouchers from Trump Dunebeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Doonbiog, Kus Faragea. If you want to get the show early and ad-free, head on over to the piquinones show.com. There you can choose from where you wish to support me. Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me about this,

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Subscribe Star. And if you do that, you will get access to the audio file. So head on over to the Pekignanos Show.com. You'll see all the ways that you can support me there. And I just want to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can put out the amount of material that I do.

I can do what I'm doing with Dr. Johnson on 200 years together and everything else. The things that Thomas and I are doing together on continental philosophy, it's all because of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank you enough. So thank you. The Pekignana Show.com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to part 71 of our reading of 200 years together by Alexander Solzhenyson. How are you doing, Dr. Johnson?

Well, you know, we've had some very bad news to deal with. The good news is that the Spinal Tap sequel is out. It's gotten mixed reviews. I don't care, though. I love them when I was a kid. I think there was a point where I thought they were a real band when I was very young. They came out 83, 84. And I came out with it.

And I think it's great. What I've seen so far online, has been very exciting. That's the only, you know, positive stuff that we can really talk about today. If anybody is a big spinal tap fan, the same team did another mockumentary that I think a lot of people would find hilarious called Bestin Show. It's about centers around dog shows, people who, you know, have these dogs that they try. so that they can be, you know, dog show worthy and Westminster Kennel Club thing like that. And it is hysterical, the characters that they have in that.

Oh, I never heard of it. I'm a big Trailer Park Boys fan, though. My son got me into it years ago. All right. If you are ready, I'm ready. Let's talk about the Cronstead uprising. Yes, sir. All right.

The Cronstead Uprising had distinctly anti-Jewish character, and so all the more was it doomed? They destroyed portraits of Trotsky and Zinoviev, both Jewish, but not those of Lenin. And Zinoviev didn't have guts to go to negotiate with the rebels. He would be torn into pieces. So they sent Kalinin, who's Russian. There were labor strikes in Moscow in February 1921 that had the slogan, down with communists and Jews. We have already mentioned that during the Civil War, the majority of Russian socialists,

and there were numerous Jews among them, were, of course, on Lenin's side, not on Admiral Colchek's, and some of them actually fought for the Bolsheviks. For example, consider Buden member Solomon Schwartz. During the period of the provisional government, he was a director of a department and a ministry. During the Civil War, he volunteered to the Red Army,

though he did not indicate his rank. Later he emigrated abroad where he published two books about the Jewish situation in the USSR. We will cite him below. Well, unless he talks about the Cronstadt uprising more later, I could have sworn he wrote more on it. I've read the Marxist interpretations of this. Of course, it's not shocking that they don't mention the Jewish angle of it. there's been several Cronstadt rebellions, one in 1917 and one in 1906.

That particular area, this is just off Petersburg, an island. And I'm going to do a paper on it. I have to do a paper on it now. Even the right wing didn't say too much about it except for the fact that, yeah, maybe there is a this would have been a very different kind of socialism. However, in their demands, they do say freedom of speech, but only, they say it explicitly, but only for leftists and socialist parties. That would apparently, was acceptable at the time.

Trotsky, this is a huge issue. This was a massive watershed. I want to make it clear. I may have erred in the past, I think I've mentioned it several times. War communism comes first. The new economic policy comes second. War communism referring to both the Civil War and World War I, the very end of World War I. But regardless, by 1921, the economy was worse than at any point in Russian history.

and it will be very difficult for them to recover. Marxists are still talking about it today. Trotsky was in charge of really the suppression. And there's one of the more proof that he was identical with Lenin and Stalin in this regard. They tried to make up stories that they were, the white emigres created this. That was their new, you know, how the left needs someone to demonize. And the capitalist, despite the fact that capitalists were investing in the Soviet Union. They said whatever they needed to say.

And there was even a point, I think, in the early 30s that Trotsky said, I can't believe people are still talking about this. Now, one group of people who were very effective with the anarchists, Berkman and Rosa Luxembourg said that this was the end of any form of socialism.

Well, I, you know, what were the options? You either have the market or you have central planning. You either have the dictatorship of the proletariat or you have an unpopular party

stand for elections. What, there's no, you know, this is why they all look the same. That was never interest in worker control of anything. But, of course, you know, the Soviet press at the time really was awful. It turned out something like 20,000 people were killed when the sailors rose up in the midst of this disaster.

They didn't recognize the Soviet government, but it took a long time for them to say we don't recognize the Soviet government. They were willing to work with them for a while. And, you know, Zinoviev and Trotsky just made it impossible. What really wouldn't negotiate with them. And, you know, if you're opposed to us, you know, if you're not with us and everything, you're against us and everything. And, but this was a dividing line here. It wasn't too long after this that the, New economic policy came through.

War communism was removed and abandoned. Now, how much of this was anti-Jewish, I can't say off the top of my head? Certainly, they realized that the Jews were running everything, that they had people in positions. I've said before that, you know, had no right to be there. And these guys at least had gone up the ranks and knew. you had a and this is all just the Baltic fleet not merely Cronstadt but it was when you know a clearly socialist movement you have the old Soviet style the Soviet of St. Petersburg

rose up against the Bolsheviks and the Bolsheviks had to start the slaughter of them although a good chunk of them did flee to Finland Stalin gave them amnesty well he said if you come back you know we won't do anything to you will be fine and of course he either put them in the gulag or killed them all it's naivete with people like you know socials could ever be taken at their word

but these at least in their formal pronouncements they were leftists and I think also an interesting part of their agenda was they wanted a free trade in handicrafts or agriculture, small scale. Now, of course, we have no problem with that because in the end to the grain requisitions, which was destroying the economy. You had a mass of famine by now. You had strikes everywhere. And, you know, what were they striking against? that were striking against the workers' paradise.

How could that possibly be? Unless, of course, they have no connection with the way. And the Bolshevik Party, because of this, isolated itself. But it had always been isolated, but now even more so from workers and peasants and even their own military. It became a cult run by Trotsky and Zinovian. And obviously a Jewish character. but it's true. They did say down with Communists and Jews.

They realized that Jews were being put in all these ridiculous positions imported from all over the world, wherever they could find one, they could bring in and they said, this isn't how it's supposed to be. But again, I think they were very naive there. This is how socialism, in this sense, this is how Marxism is supposed to go.

I don't think if Karl Marx was a dictator at the time, he wouldn't have done anything differently. he had a very tremendous violence streak in him personally. So, but this is a period of total economic collapse. All the promises of the Leninists, as I've mentioned before, were all broken. They were never going to, you know, give peasants land or anything like that. No workers control. That was ridiculous.

And it's one of the reasons that the Yugoslav party and, Stalin broke from each other because there was an attempt in Yugoslavia for self-management. And that was a really, they almost invaded Yugoslavia. They hated that idea so much. And they used, they kept using the phrase, you know, the workers of Russia aren't ready for true communism. And I get that could only mean, you can mean a few things. I think it could mean they haven't been brainwashed to know or are enemies within them. haven't been eliminated yet.

And this goes along at the same time with massive peasant uprisings all over Russia. It's a miracle that they, but the white armies had, you know, we're in the process of leaving. And so these were scattered rebellions rather than any singular front

against the Bolsheviks. That's the only reason they were able to win. And they could win because they did get Western money. And they were very well armed and they were willing to do anything including using poison gas. Poison gas was a big part of their destruction of the Antonov rebellion in South Russia, or Tambov region, probably the biggest of the present uprisings roughly around this time.

And all this means now is this famine, shortages of everything beyond belief. It wasn't a third world. It was a 10th world country at this point. And they, I don't know, London died. in 1925 and the NEP was stopped pretty quickly. Had Lennon lived longer, I'm not sure it would have happened here, but Stalin had, you know, was able to hold on. So it was just, the Kronosat rebellion, you know, it's still being discussed.

It was a huge, and it's whatever, whatever legitimacy people thought the Bolsheviks had was destroyed. and the Jewish nature of Bolshevism was also exposed quite a bit. But, you know, a lot of its opponents were Jews too. But right up until the day he died, Trotsky said, I did the right thing there. I did the right thing by attacking and destroying them. There's no negotiating with the white army. He has figured these sailors were white sailors, you know.

And the white emigreys were now the new bad guy to be used. used pretty much you know for the next 20 years and it justified anything that the Soviets did. Ready for huge savings? Well mark your calendars from November 28th to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse Sale is back.

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And now this Chalka Vreavash Nation Aamshara Islea of a gaihe and not yet gree in on doon and leander gaolah to gain the time of Deirin in Ergrid,

we're in a court in Woonaha to find out of having vuneh their own Chaucer to do you know on as

chrizzar with all the family, Gnaw and people tariff of the Ait O'Eigh

Oakhuduagin. Fullam Nis more to Ergaret Pongahy. Thus it looked as though not only

Bolshevik Jews but all of Jewry had decided to take the Red Side in the Civil War could we claim that their

choice was completely deliberate. No. Could we claim they didn't have any other choice? Again, no. Shulgin describes the enormous exodus from Kiev in October 1, 1919, as the city was to be surrendered to Bolsheviks. It was an entirely Russian exodus. People were leaving on foot with knapsacks across the bridges over Denepper River. He estimated their numbers at around 60,000. Quote, there were no Jews in this exodus. They were not no Jews. among those many thousands of Russians, men, women, and children, with bundles in their hands streaming across the beautiful chain bridge under a sorrowful net of rain. There were more than 100,000 Jews in Kiev at that time.

Shulgin writes, and all of those rich and very rich Jews, they didn't leave. They chose to stay and wait for arrival of Bolsheviks. Quote, the Jews decided not to share their fate with us, and with that they carved. and knew and possibly the deepest divide between us. No kidding. I think these rich Jews knew that they were going to be treated very well. The fact that they were wealthy had nothing to do with anything. And they, of course, you know, because they had money and they had some administrative experience,

they were putting all these positions to run the country, even though they had no experience in it. They did very, very well. And he's right. there was there were no russians in this exit this is the the immigration after as a civil war came to an end from 1990 1921 um you know it changed the world because it you know i wouldn't be probably russian orthodox without it because so many of the um the russian orthodox emigrate churches at russian orthodox church abroad etc you know reached out to non you know non-russians and it changed a lot.

And when Solzhenitsyn's exile, too, in the 70s, changed everything. And the writings of the Greys were brilliant. Ivan Elyne, of course, just being one of them. But yeah, no kidding. This just proves that this had nothing to do with social equality, whether you were wealthy or not. This clearly was an ethnic movement at the time. The rich Jews chose,

stay and wait for the arrival of the Bolsheviks. Well, if I were them, I do the same thing. So it was in many other places. According to the testimony of socialist revolutionary Smaslav, quote, it is a fact that in towns and cities of southern Russia, especially in cities to the west of the Denepper that changed hands repeatedly, the arrival of Soviets was mostly celebrated and the most of hollow sympathy was expressed in the Jewish quarters and not infrequently only in those alone. A contemporary American historian, Bruce Lerner, Lincoln, author of a big treatise about our civil war, said that the entire Ukrainian Czechos was composed of almost 80% by Jews that can be explained by the fact that prior to

arrival of the Reds, cruel pogroms went on non-stop. Indeed, those were the bloodiest pogrom since the times of Bogdan Kemalnitsky. We will discuss the pogrom soon, though it should be noted that the time sequence was actually the opposite. Those 80% Jews were already staffing the Czech in 1918, whereas the Petliura, Petlioras, a Ukrainian publicist, writer, journalist who was head of the state during the Ukrainian independence of 1918, 1920, pogroms only gathered momentum during 1919. The pogroms by white army troops began in the fall of 1990. You know, when I mentioned academics promoting this crap, Bruce Lincoln is number one on my list. he is of course he's dead now

he was one of the first people I read on this and I couldn't believe I was getting so angry nothing you know this was it was so nonsensical he hated the the monarchy he wasn't so hot about the Bolivics either and he was clearly a leftist and he didn't hide it

but he was pretending to be a survey historian on this stuff but one of the reasons he claimed to hate the monarchy was that they just nonstop hated the Jews for no reason. Bruce Lincoln is another one of these guys. Gary Hamburg is another. When I refer to academics, this is who I mean. There are many others, of course. Yet it is impossible to answer the eternal question who is a guilty party, who pushed it into abyss. Of course, it is incorrect to say that the Kiev Checa did what it did because it was three-quarters Jewish. this is something that Jewish people should remember and reflect upon.

Yeah, that'll be the day. That'll be the day. But they demand this of everyone else. White people, remember with George Floyd stuff, white people need to look inside themselves and change their behavior. This is their famous, like I said, the serves in the 90s, this is their famous thing, everything but themselves. They will never take responsibility for what they've done,

the life they've told and the misery that they've brought to the world. And people like Bruce Lincoln will talk about alleged programs against the Jews to cover over the fact that there were actual programs in Russia at the time, and it was against Orthodox people and churches specifically. And yes, there were Jews then who appealed to their compatriots looking back on the tragedy that had befallen both Russia and Russian Jewry. In their proclamation to the Jews of all countries, this group wrote in 1923 that, Overly zealous participation of Jewish Bolsheviks and the oppression and destruction of Russia is blamed upon all of us. The Soviet rule is identified with Jewish rule, and fierce hatred of Bolsheviks turns into the equally fierce hatred of Jews.

We firmly believe that Bolshevism is the worst of all evils possible for the Jews and all other peoples of Russia, and that's a fight tooth that nail against the rule of the international rabble over Russia is our sacred duty before humankind, culture, before our motherland and the Jewish people. Yet the Jewish community reacted to these declarations with great indignation. We will discuss it in the next chapter. I'm not sure. What group is he talking about here?

They're foreign Jews, I think. Jews that I guess wrote a proclamation called to the Jews of all countries. Yeah. That's the title of the proclamation. I'm not sure who that is, though. although, or where they were, but the point he's trying to make is that Jews in Russia and Ukraine were outrageous. This is our movement. You know, we are proud of it.

And, you know, the great line, people like Bruce Lincoln always promoted is that if it wasn't for Tsarist anti-Semitism, for no reason, of course, there wouldn't have been, you know, that that justifies the slaughter of millions and grain requisitions. burning down to churches. Of course, that's not the case at all. We know what the truth is, just from this, just from this book alone. The Civil War spilled over Russia's borders. Let's review that briefly, though the events in Europe are outside the scope of this book. The Bolsheviks invaded Poland in 1920. At this point, they had recalled that it adroitly used the Russian national longing and national enthusiasm as Nahamkis deklov put it in an Izvestia, editorial. And it appears that Polish Jews met the Red Army very warmly, according to a Soviet source whose battalions of Jewish workers participated in the fighting at Minsk. Reading from the

Jewish encyclopedia, quote, on numerous occasions, Poles accused Jews as supporting the enemy of anti-Polish, pro-Bulshevist, and even pro-Ukrainian attitudes, end quote. During the Soviet Polish War, many Jews, quote, were killed by Polish. army on charges of spying for the Red Army." However, we should be wary of possible exaggerations here as we remember similar accusations in espionage made by Russian military authorities during the war in 1915. The Soviets quickly formed a revolutionary government for Poland headed by F. Dersinski. In it were Y. Markilevsky and F. Kohn. Of course, they were surrounded by blood work

specialist and ardent propagandists. Among the latter, we see a former pharmacist from Mogilev, A.I. Rotenberg. Soon after the aborted Red Revolution in Poland, he, together with Belakun and Zalkin Zamayaka, went on to conduct the deadly cleansing of the Crimea. In 1921, he participated in that glorious work again, this time purging Georgia, again under the direct command of Zersinski. At the end of the 1920s, Rotenberg was in charge of the Moscow NKVD. It's incredible. How much these guys, they have to move from place to place so quickly.

Again, there's only so many Jews in the world. So they have to go and take over the organization and purge and destroy whoever. Balakun, we all know who Balakun is, who created the Red Terror in Hungary, and ran a completely Judaic. communist party there. Same thing for the little parties that took over, you know, in Bavaria and North Germany.

Almost exclusively Jewish. Anytime, like, you know, when Hitler was first elected and he put pressure on some of these people, you know, the sexual revolutionaries. The first place they went to is the USSR. As if to prove his point. Belakun,

you know, the level of blood that's on that man's hands. Coon is just Cohen and of course the Dersinski Markleski and Kohn that's all everyone is Jewish Dersinski coming from a very wealthy family

you know it's you know they just it was they were capable of this using tremendous propaganda weaponry I mentioned poison gas there was nothing they wouldn't do to push their agenda

and they would lie to people They would say that we're not really into this, which was why in 1921, the problem with Kronstadt Rebellion was now they couldn't really hide, including the Western press. So, you know, it was a Jewish movement, and they circulated these people tremendously. And people think that, you know, Bellocone is Hungarian, right? Well, he couldn't be. He's a Jew, but he has no connection to it there. He was just assigned there by Stalin many years later and created the Red Terror government there. It's incredible how what kind of work this was for them. You catch them in the corner of your eye.

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Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited. Trading as Cooper Financial Services is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Ready for huge savings? Well mark your calendars from November 28 to 30th because the Liddle Newbridge Warehouse sale is back. We're talking Thousands of your favourite Lidl items all reduced to clear. From home essentials to seasonal must-haves, when the doors open, the deals go fast. Come see for yourself. The Lidl Newbridge Warehouse Sale,

28th to 30th of November. Lidl, more to value. Discover five-star luxury at Trump Dunebeg. Unwind in our luxurious spa, savor sumptuous farm-fresh dining, relax in our exquisite accommodations. Step outside and be captivated by the wild Atlantic surrounds.

Your five-star getaway, where every detail is designed with you in mind. Give the gift of a unique experience this Christmas with vouchers from Trump-Dunbeg. Search Trump-Ireland gift vouchers. Trump on Dunbiog, Kush Farage. Not only Poland, but Hungary and Germany as well were affected by the Red Revolution. An American researcher writes, The intensity and tenacity of anti-Semitic prejudice in both the east and center of Europe was significantly influenced by Jewish participation in the revolutionary movement.

I'm sorry, I thought it was jealousy. Yeah, we're doing so much better than you. Yeah, it's just, I mean, it's the high IQ. Must be. I'm jealous of the high IQ. Yes. In the beginning of 1919, the Soviets under predominantly Jewish leadership started revolutions in Berlin and Munich.

and the share of activist Jews was disproportionately high in the German Communist Party of that period, though that party supported the Jewish community at large was not significant. Four out of 11 members of the Central Committee were Jews with a university education. In December 1918, one of them Rosa Luxembourg wrote, In the name of the greatest aspirations of humankind, our motto when we deal with our enemies is, finger into the eye, knee on the chest. Rebellion in Munich was led by a theater critic, Kurt Eisner, a Jew of Bohemian appearance. He was killed, but the power and conservative and Catholic Bavaria was seized by a new

government made up of leftist intellectual Jews who proclaimed the Bavarian Soviet Republic, G. Landauer, E. Toller, a Musum, O. Nureath. In a week, the Republic was overthrown by an even more radical group, which declared that the second Bavarian Soviet Republic with Eugene Levine at the helm. Let's read an article about him in the encyclopedia. Born into a merchant Jewish family, I've never heard that before. Never. He used to be a socialist revolutionary. He participated in the Russian Revolution in 1905, later became German national, joined the Spartacist movement of Rosen-Luxenberg and E. Leipnacht. And now he became the head of the communist government in Bavaria,

which also included the above-mentioned E. Musam, E. Toler, and a native of Russia, M. Levin. The uprising was defeated in May 1919. Quote, the fact that the leaders of the suppressed communist revolts were Jews was one of the most important reasons for the resurrection of political anti-Semitism in contemporary Germany. I know. This is a. shock to me. I've been jealous this whole time. I had no idea they were controlling these

revolutions. I have no idea how the national socialism came to power there. I have no clue. Amazing. Amazing. All right. While Jews played a quite conspicuous role in the Russian and German communist revolutions, their role in Hungary became central. Out of 49 people's commissars, there, 31 were Jews, Belakoun being the most prominent of them. The foreign minister, de facto head of government, he would orchestrate a bloodbath in Crimea half a year later. Here we find Matias Rokasi, T. Borges Zamuli, Gorgi, Lukash. Granted, the prime minister was a Gentile, Sandor Garbai, but Rakovi later joked that Garby was elected because someone had to sign execution orders on Sabbath days. Oh my God.

There are people listening to this who think this, they're going to think this is just all hyper hyperbole. I know. I know. And this has, and this has, and what they'll think is, this has nothing to do with Jewish attitudes today, like organized Jewry's attitudes today. Right.

Right. Okay. Yeah. I know. Statues of Hungarian kings and heroes were knocked off their pedestals. The national anthem outlawed. and wearing the national colors criminalized. The tragedy of the situation was escalated by the fact that historically

Hungarian Jews were much wealthier than their Eastern European countrymen and were much more successful in Hungarian society. Oh, well, there's the jealousy right there. I had a phase where I was very interested in Nicola Horthy, the so-called Regent Admiral that finally saved Hungary from Belize. Kuhn. And, you know, he was the only four. And I can never, I can ever think the guy's name, Sandor Garby. He was the guy I mentioned before where Stalin said, you got to find somebody. You got to find somebody. You know, to put up there that's not a Jew of the 4931,

the, those that were not Jews on the people's commissars were irrelevancies. They knew there were minorities and they had no power in it. So the joke about they had to, you know, signing execution orders on Sabbath days, it had more to do with the fact that the Soviet Union demanded that they were being exposed. People were noticing that this is a completely Jewish movement. Hungary was probably the worst. they didn't do anything for the country they didn't even pretend to do anything for the country

it was simply Jewish theft Garby probably was I could just picture this poor guy you know I thought this was all about equality and and and the destruction of exploitation and everything

I had no idea this was part of the agenda but you know yeah I'll sign whatever you want but he's the guy I'm terrible with the name but he's the guy I can never remember who the USSR said find somebody who's not a Jew because every single person that matters in this government is Jewish and exposure is a problem so they found him and it took a while to find him the direct relation between the Hungarian Soviet Republic and our Civil War becomes more clear by the virtue of the fact that

the special Red Army Corps were being prepared to go to the rescue of the Hungarian Soviet Republic, but they couldn't manage it in time and the Republic fell in August 1919. The breakdown of the universally hated Russian Empire cost all involved dearly, including the Jews. G. Landau writes, In general, revolution is gruesome, risky and dangerous business. It is especially gruesome and dangerous for a minority, which in many ways is alien to the bulk of population. To secure their well-being, such minority should unwaveringly cling to law and rely an unshakable continuity of social order and on the inertia of statutory power. Forces of revolutionary misalignment and permissiveness hit such a minority particularly hard. Keep in mind that

universally hated that he's being absolutely sarcastic there. Remember, you know, it was the Russian empire that put the emperor of Austria-Hungary back on his throne that defended the German empire, you know, prior to the war, of course. That was one of the only countries. in Europe that that didn't hate the idea of German unification. So he's being very sarcastic there. In their world, in their minds, yes, it's universally hated. But of course, what Landau said,

this is the last thing they did. You know, it seems like their view come from Moses Hess, that if enough of the world falls to us, that if enough of the world comes under our sway, either directly or indirectly, we'll either be our own Messiah, we are own Messiah, or the Messiah will then come.

One of the two. And this is why their behavior doesn't change. Even when they know that they're creating a lot of hatred, they don't do anything about it. They don't even attempt to do anything about it. They seem to have this short circuit in their brain that forbids them from seeing when they're going too far. It was looming. Straightforward into the so promising future.

Yet in the near future during the Civil War, there was no law and jury was hit by pillages and pogroms on the scale, not even close to anything they experienced in days of the Tsar. And those pogroms were launched not by the white side. Because of the density of the Jewish population in Ukraine, it was inevitable that a third force, apart from the Reds and Whites would interfere in the Jewish destinies, that of Ukrainian separatism. In April 1917, when the Ukrainian Rada, Upper House of Parliament, assembled for the first time, Jewry did not yet believe in the victory of Ukrainian nationalism, and that was manifested in the character of their voting during municipal summer elections. Jews did not have any reason to vote

for Ukrainian separatists, but already in June, when something resembling real independent Ukrainian governance was taking shape under which apparently the Jews would have to live from now on, the Jewish representatives entered the lesser Rada, and a vice secretariat on Jewish nationality, Jewish ministry, was established. The latter worked on the long-cherished project of Jewish national autonomy, according to which every nationality and now, the Jewish one, creates its own national union, which can legislate according to the needs and interests of their nation, and four, it receives financial support from the Treasury, and a representative of the Union becomes a member of the cabinet.

Initially, the formative Ukrainian government was generally benevolent toward Jews, but by the end of 1917, the mood changed, and the bill on autonomy was met in the rotto with laughter and contempt. Nevertheless, in January 1918, it was passed through with difficulties. For their part, the Jews reluctantly accepted the third universal. November 9, 1917, the initiation of the U.S. Ukrainian independence from Russia, as now they feared anarchy, traditionally dangerous for Jewish populations, and were afraid of a split with Russian Jewry. Still, Jewish Philistines were making

fun of the Ukrainian language and shop signs, were afraid of Ukrainian nationalism and believed in the Russian state and Russian culture. Lenin wrote, Jews, like great Russians, ignore the significance of the national question in Ukraine. Well, to the extent that the entire Ukrainian mind came from the Cossacks and the Cossacks made their entire purpose to the war on Jews and that makes a lot of sense Ukrainians

were a rural people a country people foreigners ran the cities in my book somebody called Ukrainian nationalism I deal with the literature and how that works out in the Ukrainian mind

you know Ivan Franco and people like that but these weren't pogroms these were battles you know these were armed Jewish battalions they weren't just you know simple you know Jews peddling things these are armed Jewish battalions and frankly I don't think they really understood anything about Ukraine Ukrainian history except that they hated it and and I've been saying from the beginning of this war the present war but whether No matter the casualties being Ukrainian or Russian, it doesn't matter, they win either way.

I know the Chabot organization called Chernobyl, the great miracle of our day, you know, a sign of the of the Messiah. So don't think that they just, you know, love Ukrainians just for being Ukrainians. They hate them as much as they do Russians for a very different set of reasons. they were still orthodox and you know my book goes into great detail on this question

this is a problem of knowing too much about something you know and they didn't believe in the Russian state and Russian culture no they believed in the Soviet state and the Soviet culture that's what they believed in they can call it Russian all they want but it's not now the last line from Lenin

we've mentioned before Lenin's the significance of the national question there was simply to lie and say you join with us after the after the directory fell you join with us and you will have full autonomy within this empire not quite independent but full all the everything will be done in Ukraine you don't have to worry about anything and of course that was a lie immediately when this was all over over and the war was all over, all that changed. And again, they have to be stupid to believe them at this point. But that's what London means by ignore the significance of the national question in Ukraine

is creating this propaganda meme, essentially. However, everything pointed towards secession and the Jewish delegates in the Rada did not dare to vote against the Fourth Universal, January 11, 1918, on complete secession of Ukraine. Immediately thereafter the Bolsheviks began an offensive against Ukraine. The first Ukrainian Central Committee of the Ukrainian Communist Party of Bolsheviks was formed in Moscow and later moved to Karkov. It was headed by Gorgi Piatakov and among its members were Semyon Schwartz and Serafima Gopner. It was a Ukrainian name.

Yeah, oh, yeah. They're Ukrainian, typical Ukrainian name. Aren't those Hollywood producers? when by the end of January 1918, they moved to Kiev. Gregori Chudnowski took the post of the commissar of Kiev. Kreitzberg became a commissar of finances, D. Rochstein, press commissar, Shapiro, commissar of the army. There was no shortage of Jewish names among the top Bolsheviks in such centers as Odessa

and Akaterinislav. That was sufficient to fuel talks about Bolshevik Jews and Jewish Bolshev. among the troops loyal to the Rada. Verbal cursing about traitorous Jews became almost commonplace. In the very midst of street fighting for Kiev, the Zionist fraction produced an official inquiry on the matter of anti-Jewish excesses. The question turned into a verbal skirmish between Ukrainian delegates and representatives of national minorities.

Thus, enmity split apart the Jews and the Ukrainian separatists. Well, that's no shock. We're getting into such bizarre thinking here. It took a while for Ukraine to fall. Stalin really took the rest of it after World War II. Karkov, of course, is the capital of eastern Ukraine. Well, yes, is in the far south. But it took a while for what we can enter the whole country today to fall to

to the Soviet. And of course, there's not a Ukrainian name among them. And what they call pogroms were simply battles between this movement, this communist invasion, and Ukrainian nationalists, such as they were. I mean, Ukrainian nationals had a point at this stage. There were very few. By, you know, in 1990, 20, total independence was not really. really, it was very rare to find it.

Once in a while, you'd find it. Because in Ukrainian's history, you know, Ukraine's fairly small. It always needed allies, always needed an alliance to keep it together. And what I've said from the very beginning, I took from Gogol's point of view, that's the ultimate expression of Ukrainian nationalism would be an independent Ukraine in a very close relation with Russia, like Belarus has. I want to wrote my book, that's pretty much the idea of it. We'll talk about the great Hetman here in a little bit.

But this is what, you know, any opposition to their dominance was called an anti-Semitic pogrom. So in their minds, pogroms were happening constantly and everywhere. The Ukrainian government and the leaders of Ukrainian parties were evacuated to Jutemir, but the Jewish representatives did not follow them. They remained under the Bolsheviks. And in addition, the Bolsheviks in Kiev were, supported by a sizable group of Jewish workers who returned from England after they,

the February Revolution, and who now wholly, siding with the Soviet regime, took up the posts of Kamazars and officials, and created a special Jewish squad of red guards. Well, they didn't need to have a special squad of Red Guards, Red Guards were Jewish. They always loved giving the impression that they needed a special Jewish section,

as if it wasn't already a Jewish movement. By Jewish workers, they meant party workers, returning from England. Again, they just, and this was after Kerensky. They finally, you know, once the Tsar was removed by his generals, Kerensky took over a short time later. The Jews said, okay, this is our time.

And, of course, Karenci didn't last long. and something more of their interest took over in October of 1918, but it took a long time. We're in the middle of this, this battle for this government to justify itself, but it can't justify itself. So it has to impose itself by the barrel of a gun like all leftist entities do. Yet soon after the conclusion of the Treaty of Brest-Latofsk, in which the Soviets ceded Ukraine to the central powers,

As the government of independent Ukraine returned to Kiev under the ages of Austrian and German bayonets in the beginning of February of 1918, the Hadamakas, spontaneous popular uprisings against Polish rule that took place in Ukraine in the 18th century, and free Cossacks began snatching and shooting any former Jewish commissars they could find. Yet those were not actual Jewish pogroms, and very soon Petliura's government was replaced by the Hetman government, of Cossack leader Skorapatsky for the next seven months. The command of the units of the German army that had occupied Kiev in the spring treated the needs of Jewish population with understanding. And that population was not insubstantial.

In 1919, 21% of Kiev's inhabitants were Jewish. A Jewish cadet, a member of the Russian Constituent Democrat Party, Sergei Guttnik, became the Minister of Trade and Industry in the Hetman government. Under the Hetmanate, Zionists acted without hindrance and an independent Jewish provisional National Assembly and a Jewish National Secretariat were elected. Now, Skodapodipaji, I'm sorry, with the guy I mentioned, I've been writing about him for years. He really was the only chance that Ukraine had for some kind of a rational government in this period of time.

It goes back and forth. The complexity is beyond. anybody um and not only did he mean he created an actual independent ukraine very pro russian though he was a um an officer in the old imperial army he supported the white movement except the white movement didn't support him the whites said to him and this was a huge issue the whites there was couple actually and a few others said no we we want one totally unified great russian empire there is no autonomy for you which was a massive ginormous mistake because so many us got to pot these people i mean the whites went to him for loans um uh for equipment i mean they he

he was very he was very successful he wasn't going to lose it with the jews he knew what the jews were Zionists, of course, were to be favored far more than the communists were. The communists were out of the question, but the Zionists were a different story. He was going to be as conciliatory as possible. He created a very rational functioning state, and the people who took him over, who destroyed him, was the directory, and the directory was Petluria, as you've mentioned, who was a member of the Masonic Lodge. And the directory is a Masonic institution. It was named for the directory in the French Revolution. Yet Hetmanate fell, and in December 1918, Kiev came under the control of the Directorate of Ukraine, led by Petluria and

Vineschenko. The Bund and the Polet-Zion did their best to help their fellow socialists of the directorate and Jewish secretariat and also made conciliatory moves, but Petliura saw it differently. His mouthpiece, the newspaper Vidrozinia, wrote, The birth of the Ukrainian state was not expected by the Jews. The Jews had not anticipated despite having an extraordinary ability of getting the wind of any news. They emphasized their knowledge of Russian language and ignore the fact of Ukrainian statehood. Jewry again has joined the side of our enemy. Jews were blamed for all the Bolshevik victories in Ukraine.

In Kiev, the Sish Riflemen planned. apartments of wealthy people, which in mass came over to the capital, while the military and Adamans, originally Cossack commanders then used by the Ukrainian National Army, robbed smaller towns and Stettles. That year, a regiment named after Petliora inaugurated mass programs by pillaging the town of Sarni. Yeah, there's a lot of controversy about this. The level of complexity, you have like five different sides here. And the Jews were, you know, pretty much divided over what Ukraine can do. We see that, you know, Jews today, you know, suddenly support Ukrainian nationals, which they wouldn't have done 10 years ago, or I should say, like 30 years ago.

Ukrainian nationals was always a threat to the USSR. But I think it was more of a, you know, they say mocking the Ukrainian language. Well, I mean, I could read both It's not a language to be mocked But back then it was seen as a You know, the language of the peasants And we want nothing to do with the peasantry We're above the peasantry

And people like Yeah, Ivan Franco and even Vanishenko Who I've read Wrote for the most part in Ukrainian But now you're getting the idea That Ukrainian independence may be an absolute necessity but the white army ruined their chance

by you know eliminating and the white rejection of the Hetman is what led to his downfall and so this is this issue is separate in general from there was a tremendous division here

of Jewish interests this isn't necessarily connected with anything else we've been talking about so far yeah it was not expected by them. Now, anytime you read, you read a history book by any Ukrainian leader other than the Bolsheviks at this period of time, they'll talk about the anti-Semitic programs for no reason. That's just their go-to all the time. But as I've said, there's only one chance. When the

directory took over, it was gone. And the director went back to. and forth in terms of its loyalty, just like the polls. And just like in the Baltics. And so Vinichenko was a national, I don't say a national social, he was a national communist. And Lenin was not interested in him for many reasons. But, you know, Nikola Saxes, of course, were something that were totally anathema to to the Soviets

You know, MacKno, of course, was a fake, he was never a Cossack ever in his life, not once, but they love to call him that, so-called green, the green side in the Civil War. And so anyway, it's an absolute disaster.

The only man who had a chance of holding it all together was Guitopatsky. It's not just because he had German support in 1918, he did, but he had a substantial army but he knew the directory the masons were opposed to him

the white army was opposed to him which was idiotic and of course the Soviets were opposed to him he had no chance despite his successes are we going to start getting into a part here where I think you're going to have to do a lot of explanation

so I think we should hold this off until the next episode start getting into a little more details of the of what was happening here, comparing it to Kemmelnitsky and things like that. I'm telling you about when it comes to Ukraine in this era, there is nothing more complicated. Part of the reason I wrote that book was just to get it straight in my head of who, you know, ran what.

There were so many sides. There were so many ideologies. The country was deeply divided. and that's that I think initially, you know, that book I wrote Ukrainian nationalism, which is on Amazon now. You know, it came into existence. Well, of course, this is long before the war, very sympathetic to the Ukrainian culture. And I am always been very sympathetic. I came into Orthodoxy through the Ukrainians, not anti-Ukrainian whatsoever. Of course, the Jews who run the country now have destroyed all that.

But part of the reason that it all came together was that it's just so tremendously complicated. So before we meet again, the next time I want to reread some of that stuff. I haven't read that stuff in a while. And so I could get this all straight because it's going to be very complicated. I'm not sure Solznii gets right off in here for no other reason. Then it's so ridiculously complex. So governments came and went in different parts of the country. you know they had you know and it was just um and it was just very difficult for any historian

and it's it's so much easier for people just to say that they're all anti-semites until the bolsviks took over and saved them um but but it's far more complicated here they barely made it out of this and in in um you know the number of people killed was was extraordinary all right until the next time uh everybody please go over to the show notes and over to the description in the videos and donate to Dr. Johnson's work. As you can see, even for this, he knows the stuff like the back of his hand, but he's putting in extra time so that he can make sure we get this right. So go please do that. And as always, thank you very much, Dr. Johnson. You're welcome, my friend. I'll talk to you next time.