The Pete Quiñones Show - The World War Two Series: Episode 17-Q&A w/ Thomas777 - 4/4

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

7 Hours and 59 MinutesPG-13Thomas777 is a revisionist historian and a fiction writer.Here are episodes 17 throught the Livestream Q&A of the World War 2 series with Thomas777 in one audio file.Episode 17: The Nuremberg Proceedings Part 1 w/ Thomas777Episode 18: The Nuremberg Proceedings Part 2 w/ Thomas777Episode 19: The Nuremberg Proceedings Part 3 - The Defendants w/ Thomas777Episode 20: The Trial of Hermann Göring Part 1 w/ Thomas777Episode 21: The Trial of Hermann Göring Part 2 - The Cross-Examination w/ Thomas777Episode 22: The Final Episode in the WW2 Series - The Verdicts at Nuremberg w/ Thomas777Livestream Q&AThomas' SubstackThomas777 MerchandiseThomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 1"Thomas' Book "Steelstorm Pt. 2"Thomas on TwitterThomas' CashApp - $7homas777Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

Every click, every connection, every moment your business is online, a threat is evolving. With Nostra as your trusted technology partner, you're not just reacting. You're ready, turning concern into confidence. From cybersecurity that protects what matters most to cloud solutions that scale as you grow and AI that transforms how you work. Nostra delivers secure, innovative and reliable IT for Ireland's leading businesses. Visit Nostra.com.I.E. to find out more. Nostra, securing today, shaping tomorrow.

At Tesco, we're delighted to announce our brand new Belmain Express store is now open, where the quality you've come to expect from us is now just down the road. Pick up some great value essentials, along with some high-quality meats and fresh fruit and veg, plus some tasty treats from our in-house bakery, serving you up freshly baked goodness. Tesco, every little helps. Every click, every connection, every moment your business is online, a threat is evolving. With Nostra as your trusted technology partner, you're not just reacting. You're ready, turning concern into confidence.

From cybersecurity that protects what matters most to cloud solutions that scale as you grow and AI that transforms how you work. Nostra delivers secure, innovative and reliable IT for Ireland's leading businesses. Visit Nostra.com. to find out more. Nostra, securing today, shaping tomorrow. I'm here again with Thomas 777. How you doing, Thomas? And thank you again.

No problem. Let's talk about Nuremberg. Yeah, what I wanted to get into today at long last, before we did our deep dive into the kind of bizarre and tragic case of Rudolph Hess, we started to get into the politics and intrigues and the nuances of the Norberg Tribunal and you know how what the implications were for the death of Mr. Roosevelt and you know the and the ascendancy to office of Harry Truman you know and how this was a game changer in some ways but yet how much of the new dealer regime you know remained very much intact um you know and this was a central understanding the kind

of form that the tribunal took and uh I realized that I've been dropping a whole lot of background on this, but I believe it's essential to understanding. If we were, if we were just dive into the proceedings, that would leave too many questions and answer, okay? And by the time of the actual proceedings, it was somewhat of a foregone conclusion what the outcome

would be, okay? And it will become clear what I mean by that as we go on. But where I want to begin this discussion today, you know, is quite literally in the closing months of the war, closing weeks really, okay? And crazy as it might sound. it was, you know, the first real mention, concrete mention, you know, of any kind of trial, was at Yalta, okay, you know, in the closing months and weeks of the war.

You know, it's not like this was something that was planned for years or anything like that. And, you know, as we scratch the service of Churchill, he was very, you know, he was insistent that, you know, the Reich leadership should just be summarily executed, okay, which which everybody was really kind of taken aback by. You know, from people within his own cabinet to the Soviet Union of all, of all parties. You know, as we got into in the episode before the Hess series, you know, the Soviets, they, they certainly did not afford people due process. They mean, a mockery due process. But they also, they, it was, it was their protocol to always avail, you know, political enemies, you know, to a trial, you know, at least the form, at least the formality of it. You know, so the Soviets, even they were kind of taken aback by this, you know. Stimson, who was kept on by Truman's as a secretary of war.

You know, as we talked about, Secretary of Ward, Stimson was an outlier because he was a Republican within the New Deal administration. You know, and he was, he'd be considered a globalist by our standards. He wasn't like an America first kind of Republican or like a Taftian Republican, but he wasn't an outlier in the New Deal regime. And, I mean, he, like we talked about, Stimson and

Hap Arnold and reached out to Frankfurt to really neutralize in large part you know Morgenthau's machinations

after Roosevelt died and I think that was actually in context that was a heroic thing to do okay so this was like

this was a strange me of Lou is what I'm getting at okay when we come into the conclusion of the war there was

there was really was very ad hoc okay you know and um exacerbated by the fact that the that uh that roosevelt had died and it among other things it goes to show you how much i mean the roosevelt administration it was a revolutionary administration it was

very authoritarian but and it was very much centered around the man of roosevelt but um you know it more so than than really any other administration i think save possibly for lincoln but that's a different story and and the force of lincoln's personality himself didn't shape the administration as much so like what I'm getting at is that even though the New Deal regime very much was a constellation of powerful figures and elements and political factions you know Roosevelt really was the linchpin of it

and when Roosevelt died with you know Roosevelt was an ill health his entire life and certainly during his entire you know 12 years as as president it should have come as no surprise but it goes to show you just kind of like the power he wielded that uh that uh that things were kind of

things were kind of thrown so you know the proverbial apple cart was so upended by by his death so the key to understanding what what became the kind of the kind of rationale and ethos for nuremberg that owes a lot to robert jackson you know and we briefly got into jackson's background he was kind of an unusual choice uh not just for supreme court justice okay as we got into you know he was appointed by rosagult the supreme court in But, you know, he was born as, he was a relatively young guy. I mean, he was born in 1892. And, I mean, for a federal judge or something more justice, even in those days, that was fairly young.

Okay. He was born on a farm in Pennsylvania, the same farm his father had been born on, and his grandfather had been born on. He practiced law, you know, literally by hanging out of shingle in upstate New York in 1813. He'd never taken a law degree, like we talked about. He just learned to practice by being you an apprentice to experience litigators, you know, and that's the way it used to be, you know, and a unusual for a small-town lawyer, particularly one with agrarian roots. I mean, he made a neighborhood of defending trade unions, okay?

And this made him attractive to new dealers, obviously, you know, but at the same time, you know, he was, you know, he was a small town, you know, white Protestant and, you know, that the optics of him were, like, acceptable to a lot of people, okay. and Roosevelt had to, I mean, being value neutral in saying this is just a fact. You know, Roosevelt developed a reputation for appointing a tremendous amount of Jews

and ethnic type people to the federal bench, you know, and this raised the ire of a lot of people. Like, even people who weren't particularly anti-Jewish or nativist or anything. You know, so there's a reason why Jackson was kind of, found the favor of the Roosevelt administration,

okay, for a lot of reasons. And obviously, too, that gave him kind of the right resume as it were in optical terms to head up the Nuremberg Tribunal. And we'll get into why it is more, like, as we go on. Okay. So, as I said, just a little bit briefly about Jackson. Ninety-41, he's appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States. He was, despite being a staunch new dealer, he held a lot of minority opinions that, frankly, I think, were pretty, pretty balzy.

Okay. In no uncertain terms, he declared, you know, that he thought it was, he felt the court, you know, it was unconstitutional with the bill of rights to be suspended on grounds of military exigency. okay just categorically and that certainly didn't win too many favors among his is his ideological colleagues okay uh he strongly opposed the interminate japanese italians and germans in the united states and make a mistake thousands of germans and a fair amount of italians were interned it was not just the japanese um you know he declared that that was you know offensive to justice patently unconstitutional and you know it was discriminatory on on uh on grounds of subjective immutable

characteristics of persons and you know just defense of the fundamental fairness you know he really had a fire rank kind of opinion about this okay um i'm not saying that's right or wrong but i'm saying like within that milu like that that that was a very principled stand to take okay this was not a popular opinion okay and when he'd been a tour when he'd served as attorney general he butted heads with jaydra hoover because in the run-up to the second world war um he'd opposed federal wiretapping by the FBI, okay? And it was pretty, despite the fact of the FBI in those days, they didn't have nearly the power they did

subsequent to the war, you know, and when they, you know, the FBI initially, in its early days, didn't even carry guns, okay? Like, they, but they, by the inner war years, and particularly by the kind of the new deal, they very much carded a mandate

as kind of a play. political police force okay and if you were suspected a sedition or having you know some of these for the access powers you know even before the onset of formal hostilities you could very easily placed on the surveillance you know like joseph Schumpeter and his wife they even though Schumpeter had left Europe because he you know he wasn't any kind of staunch anti-fascist but he he knew a maelstrom was coming and he didn't want you know he didn't want to be involved in it in any way shape or form but you know he was suspect because he was a right wing and he was

Austria he was a right wing in you know Austria and he you know his wife was a had penned a paper criticizing you know a a bellicose disposition towards the Japanese empire vis-vis you know China so I mean my point

is it was not hard to put somebody under surveillance if they were denounced or you know or identified as a seditionist okay so i mean jackson was not it's important because as we get into this um you know it might seem like i have someone flattering things to say about justice jackson but i actually think he was a principled guy okay what wherever i part ways with him and that's important okay um you know

henry stimson uh developed a very strong rapport with jackson you know uh and again i think stimson for all of his fault was principled and uh stimson i think in a lot of ways uh was instrument in getting in getting Jackson appointed to the War Crimes Tribunal. You know, and Stimson and very much had Truman's ear. I have no idea how friendly they were

in personal terms, but there was mutual respect in policy and professional terms. That's why Stimson stayed on, you know, is Secretary of War. The, the, you know, and Stimson made the point what he emphasized

to Jackson was he said that he'd be in favor of prosecuting the entire the entire officer corps of the Gestapo and perhaps you know

everybody of officer rank in the SS generally because in Stimson's view Stimson thought in somewhat military terms even though he was in you know a civilian role um uh he identified uh he identified the police and the s s apparatus um is outside operating outside the parameters of of ordinary military mandates and that it was tailored to apply violence in a way outside of ordinary military exigencies okay now you can

playing devil's advocate you can say this to concede of a man who who lived in a very safe physically secure cotton-in-sized country that was never dealing with actual you know violent insurgency from within. That's a term that's idiotically bandied about insurgency

but I'm talking I'm invoking it in the actual meaning of it you know a dedicated violent cadre based a political movement that you know has the ability to compromise the state's monopoly on violence

and impose their will on the population by force, okay? So, you know, Stimson was not some guy who had some soft view of the Third Reich or was pro-German particularly, okay, but his entire raison d'etra for insinuating himself as much as he did into the planning for what became the International War Crime Tribunal was because he identified in Morgenthau an embittered zealot who in his words had personally internalized his resentment against the entire German people

in his words as a race, okay? Without regard to individual guilt, without regard to the structure of the German Reich and how culpability I mean, it's presuming that it was proper to impose you know, the jury liability on actors in the German state

in the first place. Morgenthau made in his view, Morgan Thal made no distinction between soldier and civilian between, you know, policemen and, you know, conscript Lanzer or anybody else.

Okay, this was very much a, in an ethnic, ethno-sectarian animosity, a bona fide hatred for the German people. And that was, that that would have had profound implications for policy moving forward if more than that would got in his way. And I will get into that as we go on. But I think the implications should be clear anyway.

Briefly, and because at this time, you know, as April, 1945, May, 1945, you know, in other words, the immediate, you know, the final denouement of, at the Battle of Berlin in the immediate aftermath of the Reich's defeat, the matter of Rudolph Hess came to the forefront, okay? Because Hess had been in custody, you know, for four years, you know, and any way that the Allies decided to proceed, they were going to have to deal with the issue of Hess. Because the position of Hess was complicated by many factors, okay? It's like, all right, you know, with Churchill and with,

the crown was going to say, and what they did allege, was that he was Hitler's deputy furor, like literally he was the titular head of the Nazi party in a secondary role. However, he literally, you know, commandeered a Messer Schmidt's plane, defected. In fact, if not, you know, in intent um you know on a mission to see the majesty of the king uh on a mission of peace because he he was horrified of the prospect of war and uh the uh even within uh i haven't gotten into the interrogation of hess and what he endured during his captivity and we will next episode and we get into the actual litigation of his case but uh even members of the church will cabinet who had contact with the man during his captivity, including Beaverbrook and Lord

Simon. And Lord Simon certainly was not, I think Simon was something of a snake, and we'll get into that. At Tesco, we're delighted to announce our brand new Belmain Express store is now open, where the quality you've come to expect from us is now just down the road. Pick up some great value essentials, along with some high-quality meats and fresh fruit and veg, plus some tasty treats from our in-house bakery, serving you up freshly baked goodness. Tesco, every little helps. Every click, every connection, every moment your business is online, a threat is evolving. With Nostra as your trusted technology partner, you're not just reacting. You're ready, turning

concern into confidence. From cybersecurity that protects what matters most to cloud solutions that scale as you grow and AI that transforms how you work. Nostra delivers secure, innovative and reliable IT for Ireland's leading businesses. Visit Nostra.I.E. to find out more. Nostra, securing today, shaping tomorrow. But, you know, Beaverbrook was fairly balanced, I believe, in his view of the German people, including the right government. Lord Stein was not, okay. but they've spent a lot of time around Hess personally and the transcripts of their talks, you know, in their interrogations of them, they both revealed unqualifiedly that they found has to be dedicated, upright, first and foremost a soldier, you know, and a guy who's haunted by the prospect of, you know, an all-out war between the Reich and the UK, you know, to be characterized as it as came to pass by, you know, area bombing and unrestricted, you know, mass homicide against civilian populations.

You know, he'd arrived literally on a mission apiece with a letter in his pocket. He'd written address to the king stating in no uncertain terms that Germany had no demands making Britain nor her empire. But, and he subsequently was held in, he subsequently was held in solitary confinement for years. during which time he came to develop the symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia or what was diagnosed at the time. Now, we know these days, you know, I made the point before, and I don't want to go too much on this tangent now, but that sensory deprivation leads to symptoms of mental illness, okay, even if, you know, the, even if the subject is not organically afflicted, okay, or congenitally,

I rather. But the point is it has became very, very unwellful. during his captivity okay and um you know twice he committed twice he attempted to commit suicide um you know he he'd essentially been denied medical treatment or or nor was he afforded any uh any reprieve of his conditions that might have caused his distress to abate um and uh under the terms of the geneva convention he should have been repatriated as a disabled prisoner of war okay i mean this is, it doesn't matter that, you know, he was a man of high political rank in a regime that was subsequently declared to be, you know, criminal against, against a firm precedent. You know, he arrived before such things, even were in anybody's contemplation.

You know, he arrived in uniform, you know, as a peace emissary in, in, in time of a formal state of war. I mean, it was clear what his status should have been, okay? But, well, you know, the fact that the fact that he was held indefinitely and kind of deprived any status whatsoever to say nothing of, you know, again, the crown's refusal on humane grounds or, you know,

the refusal in either ground, either on humanitarian grounds or on grounds of the letter of the Geneva Convention or a patriotism. I mean, this itself caused a problem, okay, because it, you know, aside in the fact that we got into what Hess knew and what his intentions were that, you know, tended to cast a shadow

on the legitimacy of what Churchill and the focus had declared was the raise on detrow of continuing hostilities against Germany. But also, you know, the case that makes clear that, you know, what the allies generally and what the UK specifically, what they

were engaged in was they you know they were this was very ad hoc you know they were they were they obviously intended to to treat the german rike as a special case as it were you know and and and they they were not about to avail themselves you know to the express conditions of the the trees that they themselves were invoking to to rationalize you know the said treatment of the rike so this this there was a certain incoherence here and unfortunately for hess you know he became very much a pawn in in in these great intrigues um the uh the uh the uh there was a documentary there's a paper trail quite literally um the uh the soviet foreign ministry i actually contacted anthony eden directly and inquired about the the status of hess

I mean, I think part of that was just, or another kind of macab fascination with any man in the national socialist leadership. And this endured well beyond the end of the war, okay? That isn't just a mythology. You know, the Stalin retained some of, some of Adolf Hitler's personal effects. And it was a cruise ship relayed that sometimes, you know, in a stuporous days, like Stalin would have to be reassured that Hitler was in fact dead. you know, really, I may realize by that point Stalin was probably compromised in terms of his mental faggalties, but there was

a, the Soviet leadership assigned an almost demonic quality to the right leadership, which I unlike, which I understand in the case of the Russians, okay, more than a little bit. But in any event, they, the, Moscow was concerned Because if, you know, on grounds that have had some mental instability, you'd become, you know, common knowledge, the German government, at least as, you know, at least the interim structure that existed under occupation, you know, but this was before even, you know, the occupation zones had ossified into semi-sovereign states.

the concern was that under the prisoners of war section of the Geneva Convention is that you know they could be a good case not just for his repatriation but for that of you know whoever else might come into custody of of high political rank and Eden Eden was very current

his reply was simply we naturally don't intend to what has returned to Germany and so possibly escape answering for his share in German war crimes. Churchill weighed on in this saying that a prisoner of war committed war crimes against the laws of war can be shot. That is not true. In typical kind of Churchillian fashion,

Churchill kind of invoked a half-truth and then put a polemical spin on it in a flippant way and simply expected his audience to accept what the old man said is somehow... That's somehow dogma from on high. A prisoner of war, you know, somebody who enjoys that status, you know, like a uniformed combatant. It can only be executed after due court martial by officers of appropriate rank, which a lot of people don't know. And that's, I mean, that's not just customary.

It's the letter of the law if you accept the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Conventions is binding law. and only after the protecting power has been notified and after a lapse of statutory period of time. And David Irving made the point that there was a paradox here that the, you know, that the Soviet Union was, you know, advising Eden that they probably ought to abide the Geneva Convention, which the Soviet Union had specifically repudiated in which the British were constantly invoking to rationalize their own conduct at war. the uh and finally the uh and this again this bears on how the indictment was finally structured and becomes relevant it's not just i'm not just raising these issues to point out of basic hypocrisy or make a political point about what was alleged against the defense ultimately ended up standing um for trial at nuremberg in the case that has you know

as we talked about in our treatment of him during our kind of lengthy series you know it's an arguable that Hess was characterized like the dominant characteristic of him was as moral conscience okay it's not just me putting shine on him there was a basic sensitivity

and earnest naivety okay everybody who was familiar with the man acknowledged that and even if one doesn't accept that he'd personally he'd issued a formal telegram to all the galiters in the aftermath of the Christom which I assume the listeners are familiar

with. You know, Gerbils had very foolishly you know, stirred up stirred up you know, national socialists in Berlin and Munich to you know, the violence against

the Jewish minority, you know, owing to a, owing to the assassination of a German diplomat by a Polish Jewish communist, you know, a young kid. and uh this really put gerbils in the house with hitler not because hitler had some sort of like abiding sympathy for the jewish population of germany's urban centers but because this this is a PR disaster in the court of world opinion uh it took germany a long time to rehabilitate its its image and uh there truly was a global media in those days i mean nothing like today but it was you know the there was uh rapid communication across national frontiers by the 1930s that there had not been an epochs past.

So this gave Germany's enemies fodder to cast him as truly monstrous. And Hess was outraged by that, but also, I mean, you know, one of the things like his relationship of the househoppers, you know, Hess really wasn't a particularly, he wasn't particularly prejudiced or wasn't particularly racially oriented, you know, he issued this circular condemning, you know, the Crystal Knox. demanding a halt to what he referred to as future outrages. Beyond that, you know, he was not a military or police role.

He was not a participant in any of the secret conferences that the Fuhrer held with the OKW, you know, the military eye command. If you accept the narrative of what became called in the 70s, the 1970s the Holocaust, you know, if you accept that there was a specific intent conspiracy to of ethnic cleansing and homicide.

The narrative of that posits that, you know, the Von C. conference in 1942 was where that policy was decided upon and ultimately implemented. Well, I mean, Hess, not only that has not sit in in a conference, Hess was incarcerated in the United Kingdom at the time that that occurred.

I mean, as everybody well knew, has had actually tried to stop the war and end of bombing. I mean, he had left Germany before the attack on the Soviet Union. I mean, we go on and on, okay. The idea that the idea that Hess in any way she performed

could be held colorful for war crimes is absurd, but politically. A man with the rank of Hess in the national socialist regime could simply not be allowed to be acquitted, okay? And we'll get into why that is as we go on.

It becomes clear, I think. okay um has became the the real man in the high castle because he he just could not be permitted to go free because we permitted to go free that would have shattered the narrative okay and that this isn't some wild conspiratorial notion um it owes in large part um i mean obviously there there was uh politics behind this decision of the of the of the of the of the of the worst sort but also as I'm going to get into as we deep dive here you know something that a lot of lay people don't recognize is that legal reasoning is very self-contained okay and there's a way that it must be structured and certain assumptions must be abided and in abiding those assumptions certain other possibilities have to be absolutely negated okay um it's very binary and it's We'll be clear what I mean by that as we go on. But, you know, this is the tragedy of Rudolph Hess, okay?

And I believe the reason I make so much of him is because it's not just going to humanize the issue, but it's, you know, in very dramatic and concrete terms, it demonstrates what was flawed about the entire enterprise of these proceedings. Now, bring it kind of back to Earth a bit. In 1945, after Yalta, when Roosevelt's final acts and kind of the planning of what ultimately became the International Tribunal, FDRS and Samuel Rosenman to London, Samuel Rosenman was one of a, he was kind of a trusted functionary. You know, I think we mentioned him before. he uh he enjoyed kind of good offices with morganthau and with that element but he certainly wasn't like uh he certainly wasn't a zealot um you know he wasn't a standard bear of that position but he was a man who's kind of universally um he was a man was kind of like universally accepted and respected both by his own co-religionist as well as british as well as um people like

Stimson, you know, so he became something of a, something of an unofficial emissary, okay? Now, the reason why, the reason why FDR deployed Rosamind to London was his job was the recent kind of agreement with the British authorities on, on the treatment of the, you know, of the Reich war criminals, okay? And we got into, before the Hess series, you know, we got into the kind of the rather arbitrary distinction between, you know, the made, quote, major war criminals and others. Okay, well, like, Rosenman, his job was to, you know, kind of, for lack of a better way to characterize it, you know, force the British in the most diplomatic way possible to, you know, to participate in a kind of roadmap or, you know, at least some kind of basic structure for, you know, how, what proceedings were going to look like against these people and, and how it was going to be structured and, like, where authority was going to be vested, okay? you know, was the, was this tribunal going to be acting on behalf of, you know, the, quote, United Nations, you know, was going to be on behalf of, you know, the allied occupation authorities exclusively?

It wasn't going to be some sort of, um, at Tesco, we're delighted to announce our brand new Belmain Express store is now open, where the quality you've come to expect from us is now just down the road. pick up some great value essentials, along with some high-quality meats and fresh fruit and veg, plus some tasty treats from our in-house bakery, serving you up freshly baked goodness. Tesco, every little helps. Did you know, employers can gift up to 1500 euro tax-free to employees in a tax year? Many of Ireland's largest employers choose me to you, a guaranteed Irish-owned multi-store gift card, accepted in over 8,000 retailers nationwide, including pennies, Brown Thomas, Lifestyle Sports, Harvey Norman, Tesco, Smits Toys, Applegreen, and many more.

With no ordering fees on purchase and easy activation, MeToU gift cards are the safe and secure choice. Find us online at me to you.i, me to you, supporting Irish retail. Was it going to be some sort of temporarily sovereign regime within the German occupation zones of, you know, France, United States, the UK, and, and, and, and the Soviet Union, like, this was not, this is not a little clear as of this point, because it was, there was no precedent. But, surprisingly, to Rosenman, Viscount Simon, you know, Lord Viscount Simon, who we've talked about before, you know, who'd been, who, who'd been, you know, and, um, a proponent of appeasement, uh, and a liberal party mouth. South Peace, you know, many years previously, you know, but who now was, uh, was, uh, was, you know, the chief, uh, it was kind of the jurist in chief of, of the church of war cabinet. Um, he, uh, he see simply reiterated that the summary killing of, of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, in the entirety of the Reich authority structure, it'd be carried out with no, with no trial or without any kind of formality. And Rosenman was pretty shocked by this, okay? not just because of its barbarity, but because of it's,

that's just not politically viable. I mean, for reasons it should be obvious. In my opinion, it wasn't just for Churchill's flippancy being kind of contagious within his inner circle. But again, Simon, Simon was doing everything he could to kind of distance himself from his past, as, you know, an appeaser, okay? So the fact that he was situating himself first and foremost as kind of the, you know, Lord High Executioner of the anti-fascist.

cadre I should come as no surprise and it was very very cynical um it uh Simon actually wrote in the cabinet paper which uh I believe in the English men and ladies were listening and correct me if I'm wrong I believe that's like the minutes of a Senate subcommittee here in the United States okay the cabinet paper um regardless as a mayor of public record uh simon wrote quote that these leaders must suffer death the question arises whether it should be tried by some

form of tribunal claiming to exercise judicial functions or not so i mean basically he was saying he was admitting that you know it's a forerung conclusion these men are going to be executed the only question is whether it should be available to a show trial which is pretty grotesque that kind of aboveboard cynicism i think okay uh there's something see see a lot of that today don't we

Yeah, indeed. And I think that's one of the precedents, I think, that was one of the negative precedents that was set by this entire affair, because it's like, you know, the, it's one thing that there's an earnest naivete surrounding these things, or it's another thing. Or if, you know, if, you know, it's a mere exercise in the appearance of law, but, you know, the, but for the sake of decency, as well as for, you know, basic law and order and dupe. process, you know, it's a fiction that must be maintained. But, you know, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, we're just openly discussing their cynicism of the whole matter, like, yeah, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, it's, has any kind of moral authority. Okay. It's, it's, it's what we got. Look what we got now. Right before we started recording. It came. Oh, yeah. Indeed. The FBI, the FBI went into Mar-a-Laga. No, it's unbelievable. And that was on my mind, actually, and I, we should, moving forward

to do a, do an episode on Watergate as well as on Trump and on, you know, the, what I think of is, you know, how America, how the, how the deep state acts in America relative to, you know, other states in terms of, in terms of, you know, how it manages coups. It does so very much under color of law um you know it uh and yeah that that's an important point and it's directly relevant um and yeah it's not it that's definitely that's definitely an indirect legacy of of the proceedings that we're talking about um here and uh after uh you know after rosamund returned to the united states um he sought out stimson because he again stimson was I don't want to so much say he was the moral conscience of the of the new Truman administration because it sounds corny and but he was, I, he was principled, okay, let me put it that way, all right?

I mean, aside in his politics and whatever, whatever regimes he, or whatever administrations he served, however we feel about them, okay, within the parameters of his authority and of the, and of the political values of those presidencies, Stimson was a principal individual. day um and he was rather horrified by uh what he called uh you know uh what he called simon's advocacy of lynch law which it was and uh again he noted the irony um as at others that uh you know as the jackson um that uh you know the uh there's something there's something perverse about the russians and the french being on your side that uh your vanquished enemy shouldn't be lynched, you know, meanwhile, the, meanwhile, the Lord Viscount Simon, the mighty British Empire is demanding we, you know, we do away with any someone to do process and simply lynch people. I mean, that, that, um, and Simon had, uh, that it, that it, what's important to is, like, uh, Viscount Simon, he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't just some functionary or something. Okay, it's important. He'd been, he'd invested. full authority as Lord Chancellor and sole authority to reach agreements

with the Soviet Union, France, the United States, and the disposition of the war criminals, okay? So, I mean, his decision in his word was law as far as the United Kingdom went in terms of this in terms of these proceedings. So keep that in mind too. I mean, that's that's why this was, that's why this was that's why these people were so shaken by this kind of flippancy about

what I'm on to do an advocacy of an extrajudicial homicide to keep that in mind but now what also was underway here was and again Stimson and this became

a primary concern to Jackson himself as well as the you know as well as to anybody who was thinking about this in critical terms I mean there's a problem relating to what constitutes to quote war crime anyway

because we've talked about and this is a bit abstract and theoretical but I think it needs to be reiterated we can't we can't really talk about international law

outside of a basic moral consensus because treaty law is always permissive it can never be compulsory okay because there's not some world sovereign and there can never be a world sovereign unless it was you know

some kind of absolutely autocratic regime that essentially was owed its universal authority to the ability to compel compliance, okay, but the, there's not, you know, the law is not, does not come from,

the law of man is not the law of God, okay, and treaties, just like statutes, you know, this is not like, this is not synonymous with moral declarations, okay, and it's important to keep in mind, okay? Like, we talk about the law, we know about criminality, we're not just talking about bad

things or bad acts. You know, these things are specific definitions. You know, they relate to an ability and willingness to enforce penalties therein. And, you know, there's, there's an issue of sovereign legitimacy.

Okay. Now, if you're going to declare that a national state, particularly one like the German Reich, that was party to a truly global conflict, okay if you're going to declare that you know it

if you're going to declare that the men within its control group are guilty of crimes it's like okay well I mean there's there's a territorial jurisdiction imperative too you know or not as a matter not just a due process but it's a matter of rationality all right so you know are you going to allege that specific instances

of mass homicide you know constitute the core of the indictment and then you know are these men going to be hailed into court in the territory where these events occurred, that wouldn't really be workable. And it also, it'd be treating, it'd be, it'd be treating what was basically unprecedented, you know, that being,

um, that, that being hailing, uh, heads of state into, into, in, in, in, in, into courts that were, you know, convened for this exclusive purpose of, a, of a criminalizing conduct at war, um,

that, be treating such a thing as a mere criminal acts like one would within, you know, the boards of a sovereign state. So, I mean, that not only would not really be workable, it, it wouldn't really fulfill the, the reason and detcher of, of the proceedings in the first place. I think that's clear. Okay. So essentially, what, um, what was decided was that, um, the, the way the indictment is going to, what the indictment was going to allege was a general conspiracy, okay, that it's going to allege that, you know, the men who were in the defendant's docket.

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Find us online at me2u.i, MeToU, supporting Irish retail. The name parties in the indictment. They were part of a conspiracy to dominate the world through a hostile military conquest. Okay, that was initially the idea, and that ended up constituting a substantial body of the indictment. but you've got to understand this this wasn't just a political narrative it owed to the it owed the it owed the jurisdiction it owed to due process concepts which i don't believe were substantively honored but the appearance of it was was necessary um you know if you're going to if you're going to literally charge a government with uh with criminal conduct um and you're going to identify its policies like as as as as intrinsically criminal um you're

You're going to have to identify, essentially, every act in the service of that government, you know, by the men who were in executive authority roles as part of a conspiracy, you know, to carry out these offenses. That's the only way you can substantiate, really, the case that they wanted to make, okay? Like, I'm not talking, I'm not speaking to the merit of the evidence. I'm saying just, otherwise the narrative doesn't make sense, and it can't really be structured any other way. And that's one of the problems A lot of people who don't have a great understanding of history They'll read something like William Shire's book Or they'll read, you know, kind of the sort of book

That's assigned to high school history students And it'll describe It'll describe the Third Reich basically in the terms That were presented at Nuremberg And that's not correct. I mean, not just in value-neutral terms You know, you can't describe history according to what is what is alleged in an indictment okay um because again there is there's an

internal logic to legal reasoning that is somewhat remote from the real world but that conceptually is the only way it can really be structured i mean as well as the fact that you know this is utilized for polemical purposes and and to cast the condomin question and in a light most punitive and and ghastly but uh you know just in in conceptual terms it can't really be structured any other way, okay? So in order to accept basically what was being alleged throughout the proceedings, but even also at this kind of at inception where the theory was just kind of coming, beginning to ossify, you'd basically have to believe, to believe that the verdict

at Nuremberg were legitimate, you basically have to believe that Adolf Hitler was not a normal executive, that basically the moment that he joined the National Socialist Party in 1922, he decided he and a group of men around him with shared values and ambitions and goals has to conspiracy to conquer the world and to categorically murder people that they viewed as not compatible with that vision of conquest. Now, this is not the way warfare works. Okay, I mean, even if even if you think that Adolf Hitler was a very, very evil man and even if you think he was capable of, kinds of things like it's not that's just not the way that's not the way wars work you know um a

chief executive at war he's reacting to battlefield conditions as much as he's acting spontaneously you know the strategic landscape is constantly changing the fog of war is a very real thing you know like you can't you can't plot a global war the way like you can plan like a bank robbery okay i mean it's just not that that that It's not, that, among other things, that makes men into gods, you know, like no man, whether he's Muhammad or Edolf Hitler or Hannibal or Oliver Cromwell, no man can just say that, no man can just, you know, plan, you know, the fortunes of, you know, millions of people and, you know, millions of discrete decisions within, you know, the paradigm of a world war and, and somehow, you know, predict those outcomes. And then, you know, every step of the way, manipulate those outcomes towards some kind of discrete end. Like, that's just, that's not possible, you know. So, I mean, there's, I, I, people think that I'm splitting hairs sometimes or engaging in elaborate epilogy of I'm not okay this regardless of how it falls on revisionism this can't be denied okay and legal reasoning is very very flawed you know and it doesn't well I mean think about it even if even if they game theory it out right from the start England declares war on them yeah exactly too that throws the wrench right there yeah exactly exactly Well, it's also, too, I've tried to explain to people, you know, like, people get upset about cases like the OJ case when they're like, you know, I've always just tried to explain to people. Like, you know, courts don't find people innocent.

They find people guilty and they find people guilty as a matter of law, okay, and sometimes they're wrong. You know, like this idea, it's, there's, you know, like, legal reasoning isn't the science, and it's not like a philosophy, you know, and it's not, it's not this, it's not this kind of splendid system wherein, you kind of, like, tease out the truth of human actions or something. This Christmas on Sky You can turn a silent night Into stoppage time to lice An old mince pie Into a stunning try And a winter chill

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me to you supporting irish retail you know it's uh it's uh it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a self-contained thing and yeah you're absolutely right even within the bounded rationale of uh of the narrative of the indictment yeah i mean there was there was um that was a that that was a that was a that was kind of the elephant in the room was that yeah the london and paris declared war on the rike first and also things like this was before you know after Um, the, uh, um, Jackson, uh, and Stimson, um, were conferring on these things, uh, before, uh, Hiroshima, but after the atomic bombing in Japan, this caused problems, too, you know, and we'll get

into that, but it's, uh, I think it, I want to insinuate, insinuate some things I've written on this. And, uh, you know, the people who follow my long form, you know, the Nuremberg book I'm writing isn't just about Nuremberg. It, you know, it's about, uh, I get a lot into the Cold War, okay, and I One of the things I get into was that, okay, take, for example, you know, the Vietnam conflict and take, like, Mealai 4, okay?

You know, if I was, you know, let's say, let's say some kind of, let's say something of North Vietnamese or Soviet Tribunal was in a position, you know, for the sake of the counterfactual exercise, we're in a position to, you know, bring the United States government up on charges

only to the kinds of conduct that was carried out in Milai. I'm not trying to see the United States evil or something. I'm saying just go with me in this, okay? Like, what if I argued that, well, you know, the logic of the free fire zone in Vietnam was this idea that the Vietnamese race, you know, were the standard bearers of communism, you know, this revolutionary idea in Vietnam. And it was presumed that, you know, anybody within the free fire zone, once it was declared to be such, you know, was at least sympathetic to the enemy,

you know, the National Liberation Front. So, you know, U.S. Army infantry elements like the AmeriCall Division, they were deployed to exterminate everybody within these free fire zones who had been so identified. And, you know, Lyndon Johnson, knowing to his hatred of Vietnamese people and his hatred of communism,

you know, he plotted this genocide. And, you know, so did Robert McNamara, you know, and so did the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You know, in the Pentagon, you know, when they talked about the body, count. What they were really talking about was the genocide of the Vietnamese people. And you've got to, you know, you've got to look within, you know, the euphemism. You've got

to look at the deep meaning of the euphemisms they employed within their own internal bureaucratic language. Like, you see where I'm going with this and like how one can suddenly confabulate a narrative that really isn't there. Like, like, I'm not saying there weren't like a horrible, horrible things done by the right

government and every other combatant in World War II. You know, every combatant. You know, but do you see how one can, you know, you could structure pretty much any any modern executive decision, this paradigm at war to kind of satisfy that

that sort of narrative to a greater or lesser degree. So I encourage people, you know, if they don't agree with me to kind of contemplate these things. Or at least keep them in mind, you know. now bring it back i'm sorry that was too tangential like i think i think this is important fully flush out the issue you know um so i'm sorry if i bored anybody or anything but uh the uh april 1945 uh the war in europe's literally about to end you know the uh

and the russians who initially were the most strident and you know because i mean the russians basically invented the show trial you know like they were all about you know putting everybody on trial like i'm not being flippant that's that's terrible but they they were, you know, we got into that in the episodes previous to the Hess series. But the, but by this point, by later in 1945, you know, the Soviets are engaged in this kind of final bloody slog, you know, to conquer

Berlin. And, you know, they, the casualties were just staggering. You know, I think the so he's lost a million men digging Berlin, okay? So, uh, the last thing, You know, when, you know, when Truman approaches, when Truman's people, you know, whether it's, you know, Stimson or anybody else approaches the Soviet foreign ministry, you know, last thing on their mind is, you know, how we're going to deal with, you know, the war crimes tribunal, you know. So, you know, through the State Department, there was, approaches by the State Department got really no response from them, you know. Samuel Rosenman once again he basically

he approached Truman personally and said look like you know if this is going to happen you're going to have to take the lead like the Soviets aren't going to do anything and the Soviets right now they're they got bigger fish to fry you know they're fighting the last of the

the last of the Third Reich in Berlin the British are talking about hanging everybody like you know it's some cheap this Christmas on Sky you can turn in a silent night into stoppage time to lice an old mince pie

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Teas and sees apply. cowboy movie or something, you know, if, uh, if, uh, you know, if, if, if, if, if, if, you know, if this is going to happen, America needs to take the lead. And Truman, what are people saying about Truman? I mean, Truman, Truman was a real article to executive, okay? Like, Truman did what he wanted. Um, and in some sense, that's admirable. Um, but, so Truman is wanted an action immediately. And that's when he tapped Justice Jackson. Okay, he knew Jackson before that. Stimson knew Jackson. But, you know, uh, that's been Truman basically said, okay, I want Jackson. Jackson's the guy who's going to lead this thing.

He's going to tell him, you know, he's the man. He's going to get together, okay? And, you know, then the question became, you know, again, like, was Jackson going to act as, you know, a trial attorney or a chief process of the United States? You know, was he representing, you know, the United Nations? Like, what, what should it be?

I mean, what was ultimately decided was, you know, it came to be another peculiar function of, you know, of the four powers of occupation authority, you know, which never made a whole lot of sense other than as a pragmatic affair, but, I mean, basically the world accepted it because, and if you remove the fact that, you know, the entire purpose of the trials was a, was a punitive measure against Germany. You know, it looked as if, okay, it's like, you know, all major, you know, kind of all major parties and something are being represented. You know, the United States was supposedly, you know, the new dealers, particularly, you know, they were, they were trying to promote the country as, you know, as the indispensable nation and, you know, the kind of crossroads of all, of all peoples. You know, the Soviet Union was, you know, represented the communist world.

you know, the UK who, uh, I, was, uh, you know, kind of its own, it's hard to characterize what the viewpoint was of the United Kingdom, but, you know, and that's why like I think France was included. It wasn't just to appease. You know, France did not, frankly, have much power at that point and ability to get their way, but I, I believe it was a, Truman realized, I don't think I'm just speculating that, you know, including the French and the entire affair gave it the appearance of legitimacy, because, like, oh, hey, you know, we've got, you know, we've got the other major, you know, continental power here that, you know, is kind of making sure that this is, you know, above board and not some punitive regime. I mean, which is nonsense. But you know, in a very superficial way. But the, you know, that raised the question as to why, it's like, okay, so why everybody else is kind of light out and let the United States sort of, you know, take control the whole thing? Well, like I said, the French weren't in a position to do anything. the uh you know and for all practical purposes i mean i don't want to get too into this now like france

was part of the axis powers like this idea that like you know like that's like france under house occupation and the french hated the germans like that's nonsense i mean france to divide society politically in every other way but you know the first uh the first troops that engaged the american army in operation torch know they ever go over the french okay like the last defenders of berlin were french were french s okay so it's the uh france is not just this country that was conquered and then liberated you know like that's so keep that in mind but you know why the uk and uss are just kind of like hand the the enterprise to america well in the case the russians uh they were in a tough position because

uh vishinsky andre vishinsky i'm sure i'm butchering that pronunciation so forgive me if i am uh he undoubtedly was going to be you know the the chief prosecutor but he was the guy who decided over all the show trials in the 30s, okay? And plus two, you know, the Soviets had, they had the Ketian massacre, which they subsequently blamed on the Third Reich. But, like, the Soviets, there was a lot of dirty pool here, okay? Like, the Soviets realized there's a lot of things

they didn't want coming to reveal, okay? Like, first of all, it would have compromised legitimacy even more than, it would have been even more uphill battle to sell the idea of a Soviet-led delegation. and for Nuremberg I mean there's the obvious matter of the fact that, you know, they were feared and reviled by a huge number of

people on the planet, not just the Europeans, but also a lot of ugly things would have come to light, okay, that the Soviets could not afford have come to light, and they knew that. And Viscount Simon, you know, again, Simon basically, among other things, you know,

he'd been a champion of appeasement back in the thirties and an opponent of Churchill in the focus you know and an owing in part to his aristocratic pedigree and i believe you know his friendship with guys like anthony eden you know he got like a second lease on life but you know he Churchill was in Machiavelli and he had him in a very tight leash okay you know like simon the simon started raising hell like i you know suddenly it would have suddenly would have been on the you know front page news like hey why is this why is this why is this appeaser who you you know, you know, who said all these, all the things on Mr. Churchill, like, why, why, why, why, why, why, why should he, why, why should he, you know, be in charge here? You know, wasn't, wasn't he a liberal party wonk who was, was saying we should appease Hitler? Like, what is he, is he anti-Semitic? You know, I mean, this stuff, okay? So, that's really how, uh, the American delegation was able to, like, insinuate itself as, as, as, like, you know, the leader of this thing, you know, and because a lot of people have asked me that, and it's, and it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, and it's a good question because it seems it seems counterintuitive you know um the uh and uh and there's also

there's just there's just problems here and like i said until until hiroshima nagasaki um part of this was management of information part of it was perception um america looked like it had cleaner hands so to speak than the other combatants which again i don't believe that was true. But also, you know, Hiroshima Agasaki obviously was in the Asian theater, but the some of the really horrible stuff that you know, happened, especially as regards to the air war, could be fobbed off on the, on the

Royal Air Force, you know, and other things. And there just wasn't you know, like I said, like the the office of war information and just kind of the control of media by the New Dealer regime was very, very tight, you know, and obviously this wasn't just pre-internet. It was like pre-television. So, you know, one of the big problems with running the, with the lead into the Nuremberg trials is that, you know, the, there was a huge amount of people who were being ethnically cleansed by the Soviet Union, you know, with, with the blessing of America, you know, from formerly German territories, you know, as well as Romanians and Hungarians and other people who would, you know, join the access cause. the Soviets had made demands You know, they talked about in the episode

Before the Hess series You know, the Soviets made demands For literally 2 million slave laborers Like, evil-bodied men, they could work to death You know, and this was There was not the moral high ground here, okay? You know, the U.S.S.R. Had invaded and waged put aggressive war

You know, against Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania. You know, they maintained a network of death camps and political prisons, you know, gulags, where they're in the, and they'd slated entire categories of persons for murder on grounds of political criteria. Robert Conquest indicated,

and his numbers have largely been substantiated, that, you know, the Soviet Union exterminated 10 million people before the onset of hostilities, before a shot was fired in World War II. You know, I mean, this is problematic. You know, I mean, it's, even, um, even with information being a lot easier to manage, you know, then, then, uh, then, uh, then today, the, uh, you know, and it doesn't say nothing

of the fact that, you know, there's tens of millions of people in Poland, you know, who supposedly, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the British were going to war to rescue from tyranny. Like, these people were now being crushed under the communist boot, you know, and they totally against their consent. Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, the Baltic, Eastern Germany, these people were all being subjugated by Stalinist regime. with no popular mandate nor are going to sent to rule. Okay. And I mean, again, and, you know, there was,

there was, you know, like we touched on earlier, the, there was America had turned thousands of Japanese, Germans, and Italians in concentration camps, and that's what they were. I'm not, I'm not using hyperbole. You know, I pose this point to people, too, like, those Germans and Japanese, especially, like, what, let's see America started losing, the war and like American cities started being

terror bombed like what do you think would have happened to those people you know I mean think about that for a minute like uh and what do you think that they would have been you know amicably treated and not you know and not brutalized or out and out exterminator diluting themselves you know like this

this um you know and thank God it didn't come to that but I mean that's you know the the uh if and I mean these things weren't raised obviously and in the next episode we'll get into why these things weren't able to be raised but you know the point is we're not we're not

talking about a case of a we're not talking about a fact pattern here I mean even you know even within you know even even within the bound of rationality of the narrative that that cast the allies in particularly flattering

light you know um and I mean there's just um employers with clever cards you can instantly send up to 1500 euro tax free to every employee clever cards digital master cards are delivered instantly via email, stored securely in Apple or Google Pay on your smartphone, and accepted worldwide, in store or online.

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Smart and efficient, discover the MG S5EV today and at Frankine M.G. Visit frankenmg.org. Tise and Cs apply. You know, the question of planning aggressive war. You know, Britain and France had both planned for the invasion of Norway and Finland in an aggressive capacity. You know, the, and these would have fallen well within, you know, the category of crimes against peace as they were codified by, you know, the international lawyers that met in London. I mean, finally, in most,

I mean, most critically, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact it wasn't a treaty of alliance running the sort that we talked about. It was basically the Soviet Union kind of flexing on Germany and declaring that it would tolerate Germany

conquering the Western Polish frontier but in turn like the Soviet Union was going to conquer Eastern Poland. It was going to take the Baltic, He was making demands on Romania. It was making demands on Hungary. And it was basically demanding a completely freehand to act within this dramatically expanded sphere of influence. You know, so it's if you're, I, you know, in a lot of ways, everything that Germany did for better or worse, whether you think Germany was good, evil or neither.

Everything Germany did and everything every state in the continent did. was in response to the fact that the Soviet Union had this military juggernaut that it was liberally deploying with hostility to to conquer everybody on it

every other state on his frontier okay so you can't you're not you're not you're not you're not talking about conditions

in which you know Germany was spontaneously you know acting against its neighbors even if we you know Even considering the fact that, again, you know, like we fleshed out, you know, some episodes ago that, you know, what happened at Munich, you know, and the myth of appeasement really, you know, really was nothing of the sort. You know, I mean, even if you, even if you consider Germany the most punitive like possible, you know, that doesn't mitigate the fact that, uh, the Soviet Union engaged in far more, you know, aggressive wars against its neighbors than, than Germany did.

You know, like we talked about, too, like the, you know, the Soviet Union, upon conquering Eastern Poland, it, a huge number of the Polish evidence were deported into the Soviet interior, you know, tens of thousands of whom died, the force of Ketian, you know, the, you know, priests, intellectuals, various dissidents, you know, alleged political unreliables, you know, their hands were tied with barbed by their backs, they were shot. in the head and kicked into a mass grave. I mean, this kind of thing happened again and again, you know, and against the Kattian was pretty grotesque. The Soviet authorities blamed it on the German Reich, which itself, I think, is quite a blight on the Nuremberg indictment because, I mean, how many other instances were there a similar conduct that was either completely redacted him to record or blamed on, you know,

the Germans or the Croats or, you know, the Hungarians, the Romanians. But, you know, there's just, I mean, the list could go on and on, you know, the, you have a quarter million German soldiers who are taken prisoner at Stalingrad. You know, they were forced into slavery and fewer than 10,000 returned to Germany. I mean, whether you sympathize with Germany or not, I mean, these men, many of whom were conscripts or ordinary soldiers, you know, they weren't, you don't have to sympathize Germany or anything like that. You see how wrong it is the forced prisoners of war into slavery or,

and summarily execute them or work them to death. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, the, the, the, the, there's issues with, uh, there's issues with, uh, which is interesting, and we'll get into this, uh, that this takes out of greater significance than, uh, it, it might appear at a glance. Um, Churchill, uh, as first lord of the admiralty, um, you know, it was always a proponent of unrestricted naval warfare.

And, I mean, that continued, you know, throughout the battle of the Atlantic. Um, the British members of the tribunal, uh, many of them came to the defense,

the, the, the, the German admiralty, you know, saying that these were, these were honorable men. And, uh,

I mean, part of this was self-interest, you know, because they were realizing that if they said, that this kind of precedent that they could ever will find themselves hailed into court by some third world government, you know, and the throes of, you know, national liberation for, but I made mention of that as being more significant than one might think at a glance because Donitz was

named Reich's president, not fewer president by Adolf Hitler. And, you know, as his successor executive, and that's hugely significant for reasons I'll get into um perhaps not now but um you know in the very next episode um and too and i mean in the case of the UK uh you know Churchill ordered the occupation of Iceland in 1940 of Persia later of Madagascar of northwest Africa you know the British had planned the forcible seizure of the Azores from Portugal um which uh became something of a row in intelligence circles that that would have forced the Portuguese and Salazar potentially into Concord of Franco and an Iberian you know Concord which then lied with the Axis would have been a game changer in the Mediterranean.

But, you know, the British turned over tens of thousands of Russians, you know, who were captured with German troops, you know, Cossacks, you know, white Russian. and including a thousand of the pre-war emigrays who fought the communists to the British sent back to Stalin who were summarily executed you know the the British

8th Army specifically any there's a real sore point for for people in the Balkans the Serbian Guard regiments that fought we fought against Tito

along with 10 or 12,000 Slovenian auxiliaries They were all They were summarily executed In the forests of Gochi In Slovenia The same fate awaited You know

80,000 Croats Soldiers and 30,000 civilians Many women and children Who turned to the British They were turned over to the Tio's army And everyone was shot Man, woman and child um you know there was there was the issue of ham you know there was the there's the bombing at dresden

or even if you don't accept i mean it's become a controversy into itself but even if you don't accept the the casualty figures that they had already presented and that bomber harris or their harris uh essentially validated you know uh 50 000 died at hamburg uh at uh at uh at uh at uh you know, we're talking, I mean, it's, we're talking about, you know, tens of thousands of people dying, you know, within a day, you know, and, uh, none, none as horrific as the singular attack on Tokyo, which, which, which, you know, costs the lives of 100,000 people. But, you know, and these, most of these were, these were, these were, these were phosphorus bombs, you know, and phosphorus, uh, was, was, uh, was banned by the dejima convention, you know, so it's an illegal weapon. I mean, it's, you know, I, it's not my, it's not my, it's not my intent to you know kind of bombard the listener with like this laundry list of you know of what aboutism or something but you know my point is that the you know the allies or the master of their claim and if you're going to you're the ones we're claiming that this kind of conduct that they themselves to also engage in was exceptional and outside the parameters of of um of acceptable conduct you know the um interestingly and uh the uh I don't want to get, I don't want to set the YouTube centers, but I also, I don't want to go too much on a tangent, but, you know, the use of, the use of poison gas to kill civilians, which obviously has become, uh, it's become kind of a feature of a lot of the, a lot of the really horrible narratives about, um, about, uh, about, you know, atrocities in Europe. That was not much mentioned, um, during the Nuremberg trials for a couple of reasons. We're going to get into that next episode, but one of the reasons was the U.K. on Churchill's order, military scientists, they'd prepared extensively from mustard gas and anthrax warfare. The defense ministry had ordered a quarter of a million anthrax bombs from the United States.

Anthrax was weaponized early on. A lot of people don't know that. ultimately the ultimately the UK had had had 6,000 tons of fosgene and a comparable number of mustard gas shells that was a

that was claimed by the defense ministry to be enough to cover Hamburg, Cologne, Essen, Frankfurt, and Kassel put together I mean this was this was preparation for you know area bombing with chemical munitions, you know, to exterminate

civilian populations. And finally, some that mustn't be forgotten and one of the reasons why, I don't mean to jump around too much, one of the reasons why I raised the Mili issue, not just because it's included in the book I'm writing, but it's kind of a textbook

example of asymmetrical warfare and the kind of fog of war, the moral fog, in when, you know, an asymmetrical war warfare. You know, there's many, the Second World War was many wars, okay? And, you know, the Balkan theater, which is kind of fascinating to read about, I mean, the military dynamics, it's a ghoulish topic. But many of Hitler generals, they were fighting hidden armies of plainclosed irregulars. You know, like the situation in the Balkans had odd parallels with Vietnam. I mean, adjusting for, you know, differences in population density and you know the cultures the people involved um you know the uh and in poland too uh one of the reasons why poland was you know depopulated it's not it's not just because

the terrible animosity when the germans and the polls and you know the fact there was no level loss between you know the poles and germans or you know the poles or germans in the jewish population there but um the uh there's a genuine underground army in poland and they boasted that uh They'd been making use of weaponized typhus against the Germans. You know, they, they, they, they, they bragged a lot about, you know, almost like Viet Cong type tactics that they were, that they were employing, you know, and, and, and the kind of terrible reprisals they were enduring, you know, this, the idea that, the Second World War was this kind of, you know, these kind of set beast battles and these kinds of grand, you know, blitzkrieg operations or, you know, these collisions. of like, you know, thousands of men and tanks, you know, across this, you know, 2,000 mile front, but then also, you know, this is kind of organized, you know, like a campaign of war crimes. Like, it's not, it's, that's not really accurate, you know,

it's, uh, there's nothing clean about the Second World War, there was no one type of combat, um, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, between forces that was characteristic, you know, with, and that's important to keep in mind, too. Is any, any, any, uh, and, as anyone will tell you who's, you know, knows anything of the topic or especially who's served in, you know, a, in an active battle theater. And it, uh, what I kind of want to conclude with here is I realize I've been going for a long time is, you know, what, what of the, what of the right government, you know after after defeat because you know ed off hitler committed suicide as had gerbils as at his as at himler um foreman was killed uh trying to make his way out of uh the furor bunker in berlin that's been confirmed um you know so there wasn't there wasn't much left of the

of the leadership cast but who hitler uh who you know again who who who hitler declared as his successor was Carl Donuts. And Donuts really, Donets was unfailingly loyal, but he wasn't particularly political. You know, he was, and he was a grand admiral who was respected by everybody. You know, it's like, and again, too, Hitler appointed him Reich presidents.

You know, so it was a declaration of kind of return and normalcy, the end of the constitutional emergency that facilitated Hitler's power. There's something very sober-minded about this, okay? And Hitler was dismissed as

Reichsphere SS, Hitler replaced Ribbentrop as foreign minister. Like, Hitler basically clean house, and the men that he appointed were men who, in large part, would be the most, would be men who the West would have approved of, okay, if that makes any sense. So, I mean, I raise this just because it kind of complicated, it kind of complicated the proceedings. Because Donuts himself was invited, too, and we'll get into that. so, but, you know, if Hitler was this raving lunatic who was consulting star charts and talking

about UFOs and chewing the carpet and commanding imaginary legions, like, how was he issuing these kinds of sober-minded orders about what was to be done after he died? I mean, like, that doesn't, you know, it doesn't really mesh, okay? So, uh, what a lot of people don't know is that, uh, you know, formal, formal surrender terms were, uh, were, were accepted by Carl Narnitz. he was the Reich president and there hadn't been a Reich president since Hindenburg you know the office was subsequently abolished you know it's uh

this kind of proud upright like older navy man of employers with clever cards you can instantly send up to 1500 euro tax free to every employee clever cards digital master cards are delivered instantly via email stored securely in Apple or Google pay on your smartphone

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it's not just it's not just it's not as a superficial thing or like just like some historical like curiosity like I maintain that this is important understanding the characteristics of the regime and it's literally final days as well as like what happened afterwards and again I realize this was a very long like setup but um next episode I promise

is basically going to be the story of Herman Gearing who among other things it was his role to defend the regime in court you know what I mean because he was he was the highest ranking man

in on trial and you know it's it's very interesting because his that basically is he did he performed very well under cross examination and pretty much everybody liked Gearing even if they hated like what he served

stood for in the regime that he served but next episode we'll discuss the indictment, the letter of it, and who the several defendants were and how it proceeded. But I appreciate everybody's continued interest in this series. Give your plugs, please. I will do so. You can find me on Substack at realthomas-777.7.com.

That's what the podcast is. We release a podcast, right, whatever two weeks. That's where a lot of my long-form essays are. About half of the content there's free. that which is not it's only $5 a month and unless you're in truly dire straits I think everybody can afford five bucks a month

you can find me on GAB I'm not real active there but I back up a lot of stuff there I'm just on GAB at Real Thomas 777 You can We got a very active telegram channel We got some really great contributors there So I

I behoove you to join And you know Join the conversation with us there it's a t.m.m. slash the number seven H-O-M-A-S-7777 and those are the best places to find me. I do have an account at Truth Social just because there's a couple of people that I'd like to keep up with,

but I don't know what the future of that is with Mr. Trump being terrorized by the police state, but we'll see. But if you hit me up on Truth Social, I will answer. So there you go. All right. until the next time I'm here with Thomas 777

how you doing Thomas very well hi Pete hi everybody what are we doing today Thomas what we're doing today I believe we left off in the last episode we were talking about Robert Jackson

you know in his appointment to you know lead the American delegation and you know how how political intrigues led to America being this you know to the International Tribunal really being an American enterprise, you know, just because, but it was, by, by political necessity,

and also because, frankly, America had, you know, the Second World War, the America was really, the Western allies, whatever we can say of, you know, Churchill was, the case of Churchill in the focus is the most conspiratorial aspect to the Western allies pursuing a war against the German Reich at all costs. But America really facilitated that war by way of its political, by way of its material wealth, as well as its political capital. I mean, which seems peculiar, but especially if one considers, you know, any student history knows that American relations with the UK were not particularly warm um even in the even into the 20th century and uh there was a lot of cynical opportunism on both sides and uh you know churchill being half american um it's essential to

understanding the relationship between london and uh the roseville administration to take that into account but you know it goes without saying that um you know this was the the the world order that was structured in the wake of, you know, Europe's destruction was going to be in an American rural order, okay? And even people who resented that, you know, we got into the reasons why the U.K. or some concord of the U.K. and, you know, the French regime, which was, you know, installed after the cessation hostilities. We talked, too, about, oh, it's really a false narrative to declare that, you know, France was this, you know, democracy that, was just occupied with hostility you know france was a divided society um there's as much sympathy

for uh there's as much sympathy for fascism and and and through that um you know for the german right as there was for uh as there was for a um a kind of presidential republican dictatorship that was like nominally you know uh democratic under de gall um and uh i mean we we covered all this But it, you know, and obviously the, you know, neither Mr. Truman, President Truman certainly was not going to tolerate the Soviet-dominated proceeding. Neither would that have been able to, neither would the Soviets have had the political capital to do that. I mean, for obvious reasons. It was already something of a delicate minuet, you know, for America to be so. So, so much responsible for, you know, allowing the Soviets to expand the sphere of influence at the expense of, you know, tens and millions of people who by that point were under, you know, behind the iron curtain, it needs, I don't need to explain any explicate any further. You know, it's obvious.

And I believe we sort of concluded with talking about the peculiar structure of the indictment. without getting into its concrete particulars. But, you know, I did state that criminal law, I mean, all, all, all, all, all, all, areas of law, but particularly the criminal law, there is an internal logic to it that is, is not, that, that does not, you know, lend itself to other forms of reasoning, you know, that one part owes the limitations of language. and intrinsic conceptual tendencies of the human mind I mean part of that owes to the inherent part of that owes the fact that the law

presents itself as this as this you know quasi science of ethics you know in reality it's always motivated by political considerations and and matters that are you know owe to a feeling

more than reason you know unless we're talking about you know the most clear cut um instances of wrongdoing where pragmatism dictates that some kind of remedy needs to be afforded up the agreed party but

you know that goes out saying in any proceeding but if we're literally talking about a war crimes proceeding the purpose of which is do provide create rather you know a juristic infrastructure

for literally a new world order you're talking about a nakedly political process, you know, and that complicates the issue all the more relating to the, you know, internal logic of legal reasoning. So, as I indicated before we started recording, we're going to get into some fairly controversial topics here. I'm going to treat as respectfully as I can. I'm certainly not going to, you know, intentionally upset anybody. But, you know, it's a brutal topic and people feel very strongly about it. but everything I'm going to discuss is properly sourced and, you know, it's, it very respectfully reflects the historical record, okay, and I'm not, I'm not issuing a value judgment on it other than one way or the other, other than to, other than to explain as best I can why the issue of genocide became so proud.

prominent um in within the parameters of you know not just the four corners of the indictment quite literally but you know in terms of the entire theory of the case as it were okay um so i'm gonna pick up i think precisely where he left was you know henry morgenthau are a kind of recurring villain in uh in this series um you know i i i want to be as objective as I want to be objective as the topic demands, obviously. But, I mean, Morganthel really was an incredibly unattractive personality. I think it goes without saying. So Morgan Thel, as we talked about, was continuing to kind of hawk his, you know,

the Morganthel plan around Washington. And, you know, even, even though he'd basically been cut off at the knees and thwarted by the death of Roosevelt, who more than any one single man was, more than any one single man was. his patron. You know, he didn't, he, he, he was tolerated by, by most others within the, within the, within the, within the, within the, within the new dealer regime and its orbit. And there was a, there was a, a vocal minority of policymakers who very much were in agreement with his vision, but there was many more who were not. And as we talked about, this was not because they had some abiding affinity for the German Reich or something. it's employers with clever cards you can instantly send up to 1500 euro tax free to every employee clever cards digital master cards are delivered instantly via email stored securely in apple or google pay on your smartphone and accepted worldwide in store or online no late deliveries are lost cards that's why over 15,000 businesses already use clever cards Ireland's highest rated provider on Trust Pilot Order today from Clevercards.com Clevercards. Reward anyone, anywhere, any time, instantly.

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and a long-term outlook that's bright. for Ireland. At Airgrid, our forecast is for a sustainable energy future. We're upgrading the electricity grid so every home, business and community can benefit. We're powering up Ireland. Learn more at airgrid.i.e. Because they realized, you know, in political terms, this could really, really backfire to, you know, essentially eradicate. Germany as a functioning

high culture and reduced it to this kind of agrarian backwater that functioned at a truly subsistence level you know quite literally transforming Germany into a sort of Bantustan. I'm not resorting to hyperbole. I mean we've gotten into the facts of what the Morgan Hale plan entailed and it's really somewhat shocking even for the

you remember the time and even accounting for the the kind of casual brutality um that was let me let me ask a question wouldn't that basically destroy europe yeah absolutely um and that's what that's what forded it um because and particularly as uh it became you know it was one thing i i don't think anybody uh on capital hill um except maybe the most kind of diluted ideologues i don't think anybody had any illusion about the raw power of the Soviet Union and what it could muster, as well as the momentum it had historically, and the danger it presented to everything outside of its, everything outside of its own orbit and jurisdiction. But it was one thing when the Soviets were getting

hammered by the Vermont, you know, on a thousand mile front, it was another thing when, you know, the Red Army was literally in Berlin, you know, then this, and this happened very rapidly, okay, and within a couple of years, you know, which is not very long. And that's an eternity for the men waging the war, both in a command capacity. And of course, you know, for the men actually doing the fighting, killing and dying. But the political map rapidly changed. And really nobody except. the Axis All the big three axis powers The Reich, the Empire of Japan and the kingdom of Italy They were all very aware of What That they were running out of time

They were always racing the clock There was many in America I'm talking in policy circles Who very well thought the war would drag on until 1947 There was those in the UK who thought it might even be 1984 or 49 So very very

suddenly um you know the uh the red army is in berlin so i think there was those who uh you know even even when it was a fore wrong inclusion that the german reich was going down in flames you know when uh when the red army and a and a soviet presence in europe was still you know something just kind of this you know that was considered in the abstract that was one thing now people like morgan thong himself i didn't care um i uh morganthau i believe was blinded by ethnic sectarian hatred and he couldn't think clearly or he just was you know I'm speculating or but I I think it's warranted speculation or he was just a nihilist who who cared not a wit you know if if Europe was destroyed as a as a functioning political entity and it's its culture

eradicated and um you know it being swept into the you know um orbit of the Soviet Union if not you know, absorbed and assimilated, you know, by, uh, under the boots of the Red Army. Um, but also keep in mind that, um, this was, uh, this was 1945. The, uh, you know, it was the Berlin airlift, you know, it was 48, 49, 50, you know, uh, when the Cold War really jumped off and people got really concerned. And then, of course, you know, it was 952, 53, if you accept Yaqui, his view and uh you know this wasn't i mean whether you even if you think yaki is not a credible um theorist or was not a credible historian or a documentarian of his time um the prog trials uh and the you know

the quote unquote unquote doctor's plots that gave rise to them that was very that you know all those defendants i believe again except two were were jewish okay so There was obviously a major restructuring going on within the Soviet power apparatus, particularly within the executive appendage of it, okay, and the police apparatus. And then this changed everything. But in 1945, this wasn't the case. And I speculate that, you know, owing to, again, ethnocetarian sympathies, a man like Morgenthau, not only did he have an abiding hatred for Germany, If you love amazing Christmas value, you love Aldi's board beer quality-assured fresh whole Irish turkeys

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At Airgrid, our forecast is for a sustainable energy future. We're upgrading the electricity grid so every home, business and community can benefit. We're powering up Ireland. Learn more at airgrid.com. which uh i mean the the words of what should be obvious but i speculate a man like him um i can't assign any uh testimony from his from his lips to this effect but men of his class and caste and ethnos many of them in who were situated very high in the rhododal administration were very they discussed the soviet union in very praising terms okay um so that's

they'd consider two. So, yeah. It's also wouldn't, I mean, basically every country in Europe had a, had a fascist movement. They sent every country in Europe had people and the soldiers in the Vermont, right? Well, yeah, yeah, that too. And there was, yeah, aside from, that's another thing, too, the, once it became clear that the Cold War was upon us and, uh, or, you know, upon America, rather in the West, uh, what remained of it at least. And, and, once it became clear that the Cold War, maybe it will become very, very hot, you know, that forced America to take dramatic steps to rehabilitate Europe and not just in the

public mind, but, you know, in policy corridors. And we should get into that another and another dedicated episode. Okay. That's one of these people like Yacquem Piper, who was literally under a death sentence, like suddenly a sentence was manumitted, you know, suddenly Adanauer, who, as I've said before, Ednau was a troubling figure, but he's the one who came out and said, and I mean, this was heartfelt, but it also owed the emerging strategic realities. He's the one who said that, you know, Vermecht and, you know, Boff and SS veterans should be respected, you know, when they fought to defend Germany, you know, regardless of what anybody thinks of the wickedness of, you know, the right government. And like I said, I believe in Adnhaer's case, that was sincere.

I mean, despite the fact that he, you know, was certainly anti-fascist in a sense, though I can assure anybody he didn't want to see the German nation socially engineered out of existence. But, I mean, for all his problems, and I stipulate that as a man of the right, okay, he, it wasn't just Cold War politicking. that he issued these kinds of statements and took steps to, in public life, to see to it that, you know, the veterans and the war that were so honored. But at the same time, you know, if you expect the Bundes Republic, you know, to be literally the first line of defense is, you know, the Soviet juggernaut smashes into it. And you want Germans to fight and die in huge numbers fighting the Red Army and fighting their own people, you know, in the East German army. you better you better tread carefully in how you talk about them and you talk about what you know you think of their culture and in existential terms how you how you talk about their fortunes you know um

as the occupier so but yeah and answer to your question uh the morgan though plan was literally insane okay but you know as we as we talked about um in the in these series we do and which i'm very grateful for um you know the the integrity notion of annihilating Europe and alliance with the Soviet Union was totally insane. You know, there's a, unless one totally takes leave of reason, or completely

and totally just like abandons any sort of ethical attachment or aesthetic attachment, you know, to the West, on grounds that like, you know, you view culture is just this dead thing that is an obstacle to material

progress. And if, you know, your faith in God, uh, you know, kind of stops where matter is no longer observable as, you know, so much, as so much meat or material. I mean, you, you know, then I don't see how anybody could,

I don't see how anybody could, you know, could wage a total war of annihilation against, you know, the, against the Europe Central, like, literally, like the ancestral homeland and the cradle of Western civilization. So, yes, it's insane. But, you know, that said, this kind of, this kind of viewpoint, it caught on with people.

And we're not just talking about, I mean, in policy quarters, I mean, we're not just talking about, you know, crazy Zionists or, or, or warped people who, you know, came to view the Soviet Union as some kind of a, some kind of, some kind of secular, like, savior state that was going to usher in this, you know, kind of worldly utopia. you, but, um, but what did, what really killed, um, what really killed, uh, what really killed, um, Morgenthau's enterprise, or his attempted enterprise, more than anything was the, was the, was, was the, was, was the, was, was really, was not, uh, Truman was not going to have any part of, of, of something that, uh, you know, literally handed, uh, handed, uh, handed, Western Europe to the Soviet Union, potentially as, you know, by, by breaking any, any, any, any independent military capability of it, or by, you know, eradicating, you know, any ability of it to culturally resist the insinuation of communist ideas into its political and social life, or to simply

just manage the point where, you know, the Red Army would, the Red Army later the Warsaw Pact, wouldn't even have to invade. It's just that, you know, Europe would be so kind of such a, such a broken, prostrate, you know, um, uh, client, uh, regime of, uh, the United States that the Soviets would just be able to absorb it kind of by osmosis, you know, its political culture. And, uh, I think, uh, as detente kicked in, I mean, this is way off topic, but I, I believe that was beginning to happen. Um, that's why reason I'm so fascinated by the later, late Cold War, you know, a detente period through, uh, you know, the, um, re-igniting of

of very, very dangerous hostilities of the evil archer era. But in any event, Morgan Thel by 1945, his ambitions were basically dead in the water. And, you know, like I said, it was, it was, it was men like Stimson who, you know, sawed out Frankfurter and, and really kind of rooked him, at Morgan's that might mean and uh you know it was also uh it was also uh you know it was also you know it was also you know it was also you know as we as we just you know fleshed out but uh you know just as jackson too you know

he Jackson for better or worse uh you know he he became uh kind of the conscience of America moving forward i mean that's that's the role of the judge in any high proceeding for better or worse, okay? And in those days, we talked about a federal judge and a Supreme Court justice, no less, I mean, judges still have a lot of power, but in those days, there was remarkable clout that attended that, too.

You know, so I, uh, if, unless, unless a man had been in the role that Jackson was assigned, you know, who shared, um, Morgenthau's visions, there's no way that the Morgan Lepa plan would have gotten off the ground.

I think something arguably just as bad in some ways was implemented. And your friend and, you know, a guy who I don't know, I admire very much, he, Michael Jones. He's gone very much into this and a lot of his writings and he's very knowledgeable about it. You know, and he's talked about the kind of ongoing psychological warfare, for lack of a better word of, you know, that articulated by people like Wilhelm Reich about how to, you know, kind of, quite literally like reprogram cultural learning of countries like Germany. And don't

me wrong, like a lot of the theories of people like Reich and like, you know, people like Freud obviously would I mean, was crank stuff, but it but it doesn't matter because that it's even if even if the theories they're proceeding upon about the nature of mind and

the nature of culture and you know, what constitutes the cultural personality, even if that's total horseship, it can still, you know, weak at incredible destruction and you know kind of a breaking social bonds between people and you know quashing any cultural learning at all you know and uh it doesn't make even if you know even if uh even if subsequently you know the the victim culture can't be restructured in in the image desired it's still been wrecked you know so that's something to keep in mind but that uh the uh

what uh what morgan thou dig it his way in in part was, you know, anybody, I've never served in the military, but anybody who has or anybody who's had experienced a big government bureaucracy, like a man in a civilian cabinet role, he can manipulate, if he gets, if he throws his weight around, he can get his way with the military, commanders in the field, I mean, in limited capacities, and Morgan Thal attempted to do that. Um, he, uh, he was calling for the destruction of oil and gasoline plants, um, you know, and, uh, and basically, you know, destroying Germany's ability to reconstitute its energy infrastructure. And, uh, this went on for a while. It's kind of, this, like, scorched earth policy. And Stimson got word of it, and he immediately put an end of that, okay. Um, and that, that hurt Morgan about, too, you know, because it's like, everything else aside, it was making things difficult on the occupation forces, you know, and it was, it was just crazy. Um, um, and it was, it was just crazy. Um, um, the uh and that that's one of the reasons you know against his back draw that's one of the reasons why jackson got the knot because you know as we talked about he was this kind of you know he was this kind of he was this kind of he was this kind of do-gooder you know social liberal you know but he but he also was an outsider in the new dealer administration in a lot of ways you know um it uh but what i want to focus on now is you know like we talked about the introduction um i'm not

going to get into the uh i'm not uh i'm not i'm not going to get into the the other particulars of the indictment until next episode because i i think to understand those things in in in context we've got to talk about the defendant the defendants themselves but this is a different matter and again i realize it's controversial but we're going to proceed and and you know we're not we're not going to self-censor because it's you know there's not any reason to and we're going to treat disrespectfully. But June 11, 1945, this was a few days before Justice Jackson was a departed due to departure for London, you know, because he, this was at this point, you know, Lord Viscount

Simon was still dragging his feet for reasons we talked about, you know, Churchill himself was being deliberately aloof, you know, and Truman made it clear that. that, you know, the British had to come to heal and, you know, the, it was imperative to strike while the iron was hot in terms of public opinion. I'll get into what I mean by that shortly. But a few days before leaving for London, Jackson was visited by the FBI in New York City. And probably not, I find it hard to believe that he set up these meetings. But the FBI told him that, uh, They'd been contacted by several powerful Jewish organizations, some of whom were more than obliquely related to the focus, including Samuel Untermeier, who was based in New York City. So there was a lot of, figuratively speaking, incestuous spillover here. But, you know, the FBI facilitated this, you know, sit down, if you will, allow the term with Jackson. Jackson, these three leading lawyers, you know, a man named, a judge named Nathaniel Perlman, a Dr. Jacob Robinson, who was also an attorney, and a Dr. Alexander Kohensky. And these men essentially, the way they identified themselves and as well as in a defective way, they kind of represented a coalition of representative Jewish organizations, okay?

these guys were not hostile to Jackson, you know, they approached him kind of beseechingly by, by his own account. He was very impressed by the intelligence of these guys and, you know, their erudition and, you know, these were impressive people, okay? Like, this was not, this was not the 21st century. There was not, you know, affirmative action. There was not, you know, I mean, there was ethnic politics going on, but you didn't meet, you know, idiots who were, like, coming out of, like, Ivy League law schools, you know. like these guys may not have had America's interest in mind. You know, these guys may have had, you know, radical ideas of an ethnic sectarian nature, but these weren't, these weren't stupid men, you know.

They were heavy hitters. So that got Jackson's attention. And judges are a weird fraternity. Okay, I've got some, I've seen this from both sides because I was a lawyer. And unfortunately, I've ended up on the other side of the punch, too. The criminal law, I mean. but at the and uh i've never like hung out with judges or anything or but obviously but i you know i have had a lot of opportunity to observe them and this this kind of makes sense you know like

it just i kind of clicked with me when i started first reading about these dynamics but um the um basically what the purpose of their visit was they said look we want you to you know we know we know what you're doing we approve it you know the what you're trying to do with the war crimes tribunal but they're like it's imperative that um you know you uh you treat the you know the the rikes uh the rikes of persecution and in some cases of the annihilation of the jewish people it is a crime in its own right okay um and uh you know jackson's uh he obviously his big concern was like well first of on what supernational authority um you know he understood why Why? Because again, like, this dramatic as this would be in tactical terms and in political terms, it kind of created a penumbric theory of the case.

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we're upgrading the electricity grid so every home business and community can benefit we're powering up ireland learn more at airgrid dot i.e that had there before been elusive okay um however what jackson uh was concerned about as he indicated, and as I just explained, was twofold. It was, you know, what's the supranational authority, the institutional authority, quite literally, to a certain jurisdiction over these men. Secondly, what is the precedent?

Well, and that's an interesting case, okay, because this, this Jacob Robinson, and I'm sure I'm butchering this pronunciation, forgive me. He handed Jackson a copy of the Treaty of Savre. Okay, Severez, but I believe it's Savre. now what was the treatise of rate and this is going to be a little bit tangential but it's fundamental understanding nuremberg okay the treatise of ray in the in the great war in world war one the ottoman empire was a major combatant state okay um and going back uh those that don't know and i'm not assuming

anybody's dumb or anything but frankly don't teach history anymore Ivan Empire was the Turkish Empire, okay, and all but name. And it was for, it was for a thousand, literally a millennia, it was, it was the, it was the political authority of Dara al-Islam, okay? Got a huge amount of territory, and it's in the zenith that had been incredibly powerful, okay? And even though it was very, like, rotting from within by the time of the Great War, it was a major geostrategic actor, okay? and traditionally they'd been allied with the German states, which is interesting, but that's a subject for another day. But the Treaty of Sivray, there was the peace treaty that was imposed upon initially, upon the Ottoman Empire, okay?

And among other things, one of its primary purposes was to laid on penalties on the Turks for their extermination of Armenians, ethnic Armenians during World War I. During 1915 and 1917, people bandied different numbers, but even the lowest credible estimate,

you know, there was, over a million Armenians were just slaughtered. Okay, it's the way to think about it, but I'm not being flipping. I'm just trying to provide an example that people might relate to better. There were won in genocide. Apparently, it was like that.

You literally had people, grabbing blunt objects and slaughtering their Armenian neighbors, things like this. Incredible testimony indicates this happen. It's not as horror stories that Armenian nationalists told. And I'll get into how we know that in a minute, owing to one kind of seminal figure who is significant in ways that I think don't need to be elaborately fleshed out. But this is the purpose of the Treaty of Ray, okay? and it created the whole framework, okay? And the,

there was an interesting dynamic at play there, okay? Because, among other things, the Treaty of Severeate, it divided Turkish territory between the British, between the French, between the Greeks. You know, it literally carved up, it literally carved up the Ottoman Empire. And this treaty in the subsequent treaty

which superseded it, This will create Palestine mandate eventually, okay, so for additional context. The Turks still held 22 British POWs and Ataturk, you know, the secular kind of warlord who eventually came to preside over, you know, the new Turkish Republic and, you know, after the Ottoman Empire had been dismantled. A key tenet of the Turkish nationalist movement that he came to preside over was violent resistance, the treaties to Vray, and the attempted trial and punishment and attempted execution of the Ottoman leadership.

And among other things, the young Turks, quite literally, and their political descendants they threatened to execute all of the British POWs in their custody and this created a real disaster, a real diplomatic political disaster and it

this is also a powder keg because there'd been population transfers between, you know, Greece and Turkey, which were less than equitable. It really was a powder keg, okay? This obviously was not workable. So in addition to 22 dead Englishmen, you know, you would have, it would have absolutely hardened and radicalized an increasingly hard and radical Turkish nationalist regime.

And it probably would have reignited hostilities, okay, and in, at least in limited theaters. But those were key theaters, you know, the Near East and the Levant, the Mediterranean, nobody could afford to allow us to happen. so the Britain capitulated there was no more talk of there was no more talk of there was no more talk of this

okay however obviously people people like Robinson you know viewed an opportunity here because there were not at all these

these same conditions I'll also add two that um and this is this is the last kind of complex tangent i'll drop um relating to the the treaty matters but you know the this was not long after the second boer war where literally the british had herded men women and children you know in the um you know among the revolting uh insurgent uh bore population in the concentration camps and and there was There's masturbation within these camps, you know, real brutality. It would have been unseemly for all kinds of reasons, particularly considering some of the things that were underway within the empire proper.

And it's deteriorating relations with subject populations, you know, it just, it really was not feasible. But, you know, the infrastructure was laid down, and it was laid within this treaty and the theoretical infrastructure and the practical infrastructure and the practical, and a practical model for proceeding with this kind of with this kind of penal cause of action against state actors so that's why

it, you know, that it was, in some ways it was because there was the absence of much else, but also this wasn't, this wasn't in living memory, okay, very much so. it uh it um it um it uh and it just was not much else now i'm gonna hop around a little bit let me uh scroll on my notes that i can get yeah i i said before there's a personage who's important to understanding the rites relationship to um these kinds of categorically genocidal policies that were alleged and in some cases did happen but not necessarily in the

way that was alleged by the international tribunal. There's a man in Max Irvin von Schubert Richter. He was a very early National Socialist, okay? And he died at

Munich in 1923. He was one of the November 9th martyrs. Now, Richter, even decades later, Hitler said that Richter was quote irreplaceable. Okay, this man really was the backbone of,

he constantly part of the backbone of the early National Socialist Party. They really can't be overstated. Okay. He had a background, someone like Alfred Rosenberg. He was lesser nobility. He was a Baltic German. And it's interesting because they were one of the kind of factions within the National Socialist Party and political culture that uh that uh that kind of distinguished themselves in interesting ways and um you know being a minority population and you know a a a kind of overlord population traditionally that that definitely

uh shaped their perspective on you know um on conflict and on politics and um but he'd um he'd spent his early life in the, you know, in the Russian Empire, you know. The Baltic Germans, they were the, you know, they were the standard barriers like, you know, the German people and the Tsar's vast empire. But again, they were also kind of a colonial yeomanry. And owing to this and just kind of, you know, an overall patriotic instinct, Richter, he found himself fighting against the radicals. You know, they kind of bolshevik precursors in the 19, then the 1905. Russian Revolution, which was very much the precursor of the bullshit, the perpetuated

genocide of, in the Baltic, of, you know, Slavs, of Germans, of others, of, you know, non-Slav, indigenous elements that were hated, you know, the murder of the royal family, all these kinds of excesses. In 1905, these things were what was feared, okay? It was a very, very brutal conflict, localized in relative terms as it may have been. So in 1914, Richter, he answers the call of, you know, the fatherland. He joined the Bavarian army as a private, deployed immediately to the Western Front. Later, he was redeployed east where the Imperial German army was, you know, in heavy, heavy combat with the Tsar's forces.

And he developed real, he developed strong fluency in, uh, he developed strong fluency in, uh, he developed strong fluencing the Russian language, owing to where he grew up. So obviously that it's something to do with it. But he also was a real, he was a real Mustang personality, as it said. And, you know, he rapidly rose to the ranks, owing the innate attitude for combat leadership. Interestingly, he found himself in an early iteration of kind of what we consider a special operations. and he was sent to Turkey as the front in Asia Minor and the Mediterranean heated up.

He was appointed a vice council of Rizirum, Turkey. This is part of a ploy under light diplomatic cover. His mission was to sabotage the Russian Empire's petroleum reserves and the Caucasus. After an anticipated breakthrough by Ottoman forces of the Russian. lines. This didn't happen. Okay. Operational failure doomed the Ottoman Turkish army. Nonetheless, Richter stayed in his appointed role, okay, on orders. And in that role, he came to witness directly the mass homicide of Armenian by ethnic Turks. Okay. Now, one of the ways the outside world learned of this is that Richter began communicating with Berlin.

about what was happening, quite literally, okay? The key takeaway here is that Richter was his battle-hardened guy. By this point, he was a veteran of both the East and Western Front in the Great War. He'd fought in the 1905 radical uprising. He was not a soft man, and he was so shaken by what he was witnessing of outright, this campaign of outright racial murder. he went as far as the formally filed protest to diplomatic channels

both in Constantin, Noble, and Berlin and at not insignificant risk to himself, he rescued individual Armenians who were at risk in the conflict zone and got them out of there. This earned him a strong reprimand by both German and Turkish officialdom. And frankly, I think it's pretty clear

that his aristocratic pedigree saved him from far more from far more harsh treatment, okay? He was chided for, quote, unworldliness, not befitting the political situation. Now, this may seem just like a peculiar tangent,

but I put a lot of stock in direct testimony. Maybe it's because at one time I was a lawyer, but I don't think it's just that. Okay, I mean, individual men who are insinuated into a you know prestigious roles or a you know command roles in political organizations like their individual values and their basic disposition that tells us something about the character of those institutions because they set the tone of culture in those institutions okay not always but generally okay um ernst nolte made a lot of rictor

testimony and I stipulate that that's one of the reasons I started deep diving into the character of Richter but there's an inductive kind of lesson here um because his the man himself his sympathies the way he approached these things they just didn't fit with the Nuremberg narrative of national socialism and the idea that you know from the year in 1920, you know, in these beer hall basements when old Anton Drexler was still the leader and no one had heard of Adolf Hitler, that this was a conspiracy to, you know, categorically murder, you know, the racial enemies of the Reich. You know, Richter kind of stands as a stark sort of rebuttal to that, that idea, okay? made the point, too, that, you know, again, like, Richter was kind of the consummate old fighter.

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If I were to distill Nolte's thesis down, you know, about, you know, the organized racial murder purportedly of a carried out by the Reich. We're not denying that this kind of homicide existed and took place and was terrible. But it, you know, the issue is, you know, to what degree this is a conspiratorial ambition from the inception of the party, okay? And the most kind of notable shortcoming is that the literature, as nobody said, the literature about the German Reich, it doesn't account for that, with the exception of utilizing poison gas to murder non-combatants, literally everything that the German Reich did from exterminations of entire groups, you know, using strictly subjective criteria, you know, public demands for the annihilation of millions of people who were non-combatants who were just categorically. to be enemies, you know, the ethnic cleansing of people, you know, in order to create a kind of utopian political model, the creation of literal death camps, all, again, except for the use of homicidal poison gas, every single one of these things was done by the Soviet Union throughout the 1920s and 30s, you know, and when we read, you know, testimony of people who were privy to Hitler's, you know, kind of candid discussions of, you know, in intimate capacities, where he talked about his greatest fear was being subjected to the, quote, rat cage torture, which, you know, was a, it kind of exemplified what Europeans thought was, you know, the kind of

characteristic asiatic barbarism you know he constantly came back to this you know richter being in turkey and seeing these people just categorically you know murdered uh racially murdered you know and having their heads bashed in you know men in all kinds of and set on fire things you can't even imagine you know he was so horrified about this he you know he risked uh courts marshal and and kind of of the ruin of his reputation the you know to report was underway um this doesn't square with a party that's in 1920 saying, okay, we're, you know, we're, we're, we're going to pursue a revolutionary strategy.

And then later, of course, after 1923, you know, a ballot box strategy. And our ambition is to exterminate entire categories of people. That just doesn't fit, okay? I mean, you can make the claim that as the war went on, this became something within their conceptual horizon. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's a sound argument. It's not a really sound argument if we're talking about what was alleged in Nuremberg,

then this kind of intentionalist conspiratorial you know, paradigm. It, you know, if people think that the quote rat cage torture was some sort of fetish of Hitler's or like some sort of personal nightmare of his,

you know, it was kind of so insinuated into the European mind that Orwell made it a major plot point in 1984. You know, I've made, I've raised that with people too and they I mean most people who don't see eye to eye with you know the revisionist perspective it's kind of waive that off but I I I believe very much that some things symbolic psychology tells us things you know I I don't

think it's accidental or coincidental so bring it back I realize I was a very very elaborate tangent but I think it was necessary to convey that the point um but coming back to uh coming back to uh going back to uh going to judge jackson and his uh is meeting as uh with these uh with these powerful individuals um you know judge judge perlman judge robinson dr alexander kohanski you know he came to levy increasing pressure on uh on robinson but again it was very much kind of softball pressure was they were we're kind of like seducing him in figurative terms and, you know, threatening him or something. This is, this is a very different situation than with the focus.

I mean, in terms of the political landscape, but also just like how these men were trying to get what they want from this, you know, stately Supreme Court judge, you know. It's the, uh, and Nolte's, uh, Nolte's, uh, Nolte's first report to Truman on what. And now a look at the forecast. We're seeing lots of wind, plenty of. plenty of sunshine to come and a long-term outlook that's bright for Ireland. At Airgrid, our forecast is for a sustainable energy future. We're upgrading the electricity grid so every home, business and community can benefit.

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Book now at giddlestorhouse.com. Get the facts be drinkaware, visit drinkaware.com. He thought the structure of the indictment should entail and, you know, what its primary... allegation should be you know he came to uh he came to uh he came to include essentially what what what what this delegation had it had emphasized and the heaped elaborate praise on robinson and um you know i i can speculate too robinson by this point was the springboard justice it's not like he was some small town hick but initially he was a small town hick you know and now he's now he's on the supreme

court now he's in new york city now these very powerful men who you know have the year the president and, you know, call the FBI to, you know, be their errand boys, you know, now they're heaping praise on him. He's probably went to his head to some degree. I think it very much did later, as we'll see as we get into the trial, but every man thinks he's immune to that kind of thing, but most men are not. You know, men are flesh is weak and men's hearts are weak. You know, they respond to flattery, you know, and they, most people want to be celebrities

of sort, you know, this isn't some new thing or something that, uh, his is like a decadent feature of a you know in a ubiquitous media culture and things and people being over sex that this this is perennial but um kind of the the closing point i want to make uh in this um discussion and again i am not i i don't want people to interpret this the wrong way um but it must be addressed okay how did uh how how how is this six million figure arrived upon um as for you know the number of of jews who according to the uh theory of the case were annihilated non-combatants who were annihilated by the uh by forces of the of the german rike um well jackson of course he he asked one of the first things he asked this delegation was

well, okay, like what kind of attrition are we talking about? You know, Dr. Robinson, this is just a matter of fact, they said, oh, six million. And Jackson said, well, how would this figure be arrived? How was this figure arrived upon? And Robinson said that, well, the figure included all, you know, Jews and lands occupied by the German Reich from the English Channel to Stalingrad. And Jackson noted in his own diary, I was particularly interested in knowing the source and reliability of his estimate. As I know no authentic data on it.

Robinson's explanation, at least to Jackson, was that he had arrived at his figure by extrapolating from the known statistics for the Jewish population in, you know, states in question, relying on census data, relying on birth records, things of this nature. Okay, the commonly accepted demographic breakdown of these states, okay, as of, in some cases, you know, year 1920, some cases, you know, 1930s, you know, there wasn't, there was kind of a hodgepodge of documentary evidence. In other words, as David Irving said, the six million figures somewhere between a quote hopeful estimate and educated guess. Now, I mean, given the chaos of a war-torn continent,

I don't, you know, that's being ravaged by bombs, that's being ravaged by typhus, that's being ravaged by all kinds of death, natural and unnatural. I mean, who, who, well, what, what data set could probably be relied upon. And finally, It raises the question, it begs the question, who is a Jew? Is a Jewish person what the Nuremberg Law is claimed and that you're a racial Jew if you have a Jewish grandparent? Is it somebody who has any Jewish heritage?

Is it just somebody who follows the Jewish faith and is accepted by the ethnic community of Jewish people? You know, over 100,000 racial Jews served in the Vermont. And there's a great book on this called Hitler's Jewish Jewish. soldiers. You know, it goes to show you, it's not just kind of a weird fact of history, but it also goes to show you how there were plenty of people who had, quote, Jewish blood,

a grandfather who had been Jew, and they didn't identify with the culture at all and sometimes weren't even aware of their background. But in many cases, they were, and just didn't identify with it at all, but, you know, it's, mostly what it conveys is how, like, arbitrary

and capricious, kind of modern bureaucracy, is, you know, um, and how, you know, masses of people, you know, race is very real. Like, ethnolus is very real. But this doesn't really lend itself to, you know, kind of being, counting quantification, you know, and it's, uh, you know, it's the, it's like who, who did these, uh, these kind of, these politically active kind of, uh, zealots, you know, like these, these Zionist types who approached, uh, Jackson, like what, in their view, like, who is it called Jew? You know, I mean, I don't know because I'm not Jewish, but I, and I'm not, you know, some kind of religious scholar or, uh, or some kind of, uh, you know, or some kind of ethnic studies type who, you know, studied the Jews, the Jews as an ethnologist and a people extensively.

Like I, uh, um, you know, they, they, these men then and, and they're descendants now, we share those kinds of values. They, they, they'd probably have a radically different view of who is a quote, Jew than you know the the German Reich did or even somebody like myself does you know so this isn't as simple as uh as people uh as people suggest plus two you know when uh when the germans assaulted Poland there was a he there's a big ethnic cleansing effort underway by a Polish junta you know Germans were being afforded that treatment as were Russians as were as were Jews and other people that weren't particularly liked by the Polish majority. So, I mean, are the people who perished from, you know, at the hands of this Polish junta who were Jewish?

Are they part of that total? I mean, you see where the problem is here? I mean, it's not, it's not nearly as, I guess, cut and dried, but the, the, it was basically sold, not just you know the this was not a case like the focus okay like it wasn't like yeah

you know um we talked early on in our series about how ethnic lobbying definitely had a tremendously impactful you know um um effect on the new dealer regime and um

that can't be denied and and there were even people who uh you know were were active in the focus, who were also active in the Roosevelt regime, or at least in its orbit, like Samuel Ointemeyer. But the origins of the New Dealer regime were not nearly as conspiratorial and, for lack of a better word, contrived as the Churchill regime. So it's not, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not correct to just say that like, oh, well, you know, there's these powerful Zionist, you know, NGOs and they just

got their way and created this kind of, you know, this kind of narrative of, of, of murderdom and things and um and and in you know uh and the uh you know and jackson just was a rube so we abided like that's not true um i mean yeah obviously these men they they were very uh you know they were they were they were there's no sectarian extremists i think that goes about saying but it's not that's not simply why like rob or uh jackson signed on with this it again it owed to the uh it owed to the um the the the inherent difficulty of of crafting this uh this case and and um developing a true a numberic like theory of the case that uh that would constitute you know the kind of core basis of uh of uh of liability so this uh this very much served uh this very much served uh

This is very much served the purpose that Jackson and that Truman and other than needed it to. And that's a key takeaway. We're coming up in an hour here, and I think I threw a lot at you and the audience. Everybody has been responding very positively. It's not me putting it pat myself on the back. I just want to make sure I'm not boring people with tangents. I fancy myself an independent scholar and what I

so I do deep dive into extreme minutia some which might seem esoteric like not because I have a fetish for esoteric because it's essential to understanding you know key aspects of the historical record and I want to make this engaging and listenable but I think that I'm

thanks to you I really a tremendous debt of gratitude and thanks to the listeners as well but I think I'm kind of finding my legs with this, but what the last I want to do is bore anybody. But I believe this was a central foundation. And next session, we're going to get into the trial itself. And there's only two more episodes, I think, of the Nuremberg story.

Just like there's one more episode of Better Call Saul. There's like two more episodes of Pete Canone and Thomas. But, yeah, yeah, I think this is a good stopping point, man. Okay. You know, I was just want to bring up, I was looking at, up Morgan Thao when you were talking about him. And now a look at the forecast. We're seeing lots of wind, plenty of sunshine to come,

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My goodness, it's Christmas. At the Guinness Storehouse. his storehouse.com. Get the facts be drinkaware, visit drinkaware.com. After all this, he just became a benefactor to Israel. Yeah, very much so. And it became his whole life until he died 20 years later was everything about Israel. It's an esteemed family. And Hans Morgenthau was a political theorist. And he wrote a book, Politics Among Nations, which is actually a really good book. He's got blind spots relating to the Second World War. I mean, for obvious reasons.

But, like, kind of the origins of, of, like, the origins of a, like, the origins of the modern state, like it was failing state. It's a very good book for that. And one, there wasn't Morgan Thao who was attorney general. Not all that. I mean, I mean, a long time ago in our terms, but like 50 years, like in the 60s or 70s. Mm-hmm. In New York.

So, yeah, they're, yeah, they're like an esteemed family. But, yeah, like, but, uh, but his wife. his wife was the granddaughter of Mayor Lehman from Lehman Brothers. Right, right, right. Yeah, very, very much, very, very much kind of, you know, ethnic royalty within that community. So was it, was it any wonder that he would be in charge of the Federal Reserve and be in charge of the Bretton Woods?

No, no, exactly. Yeah, no doubt. yeah but when you look at um when you look at the history of a lot of this is there's just no when you look at someone with that much power there's no coincidences there no and it's also it's fundamentally it's fundamentally corrupting too like even if you're bait even if we're not talking about men who had these kinds of prejudices of an ethno sectarian nature and you know even we're talking about men who who are basically not anymore moral or moral than anybody else you know it's um that that degree of power vesting in uh individual men who kind of become either like king

makers or become these kinds of like uh or become these kinds of um policy fixers you know these like ministers without portfolio who kind of become these uh these metternage types um that's a very dangerous uh that's a very dangerous tendency you know give your plugs we'll end yeah i will do so um I'm proud to say or I'm happy to say I'm not proud I'm proud I'm gay and I'm proud no no

I'm definitely not I'm pleased to say I'm writing a book on what we're talking about you know like I think I've plugged that before I'm hoping I can wrap it up by December or January so I mean if you want

if you want to deep dive more into the kind of the NERMRB system You know, not just its origins, but, you know, how, you know, from inception to the present day, it shapes political realities and power political decision-making and everything else and outcomes. I hope you will check out my book when it drops. And Steelstorm 2, the second volume in my science fiction brand, that is off to my publisher. the great guys at Imperial Press were dear friends of mine

and you know who are doing God's work for this and I just released an episode with Mike on Friday. Yeah, yeah. Mike is a great friend and a great guy and I if you want to buy

Steel Storm my science fiction series or any of my any of my books which are upcoming please go through the Imperium Press website Jeff Bezos gets enough

of everybody's money and I it, I, I really, again, Imperial President is very good to me, they're very dear friends, and I owe them a great deal. And I would not have been able to get done nearly what I have in terms of exposure and everything else were it not for them. So, yeah, they're, they're just, they're just great people.

But you can find me on Substack where my podcast is, the Mind Phaser podcast, as well as a lot of my long-form content, about half of it's totally free. That which is not, it's only five bucks a month. it's real thomas seven seven seven dot substack.com we've got a very active community you know about 4,000 people so it's cozy but very active on telegram it's t.m.m. slash the number seven

seven seven seven you can find me on gab I'm not super active there but I will respond if you DME and I pretty much back things up that I post on my telegram and other places on GAB you know for example like these shows that Pete is gracious enough to uh to uh to uh to uh to host me on um so if you get on gab it's uh at real thomas seven seven seven seven you can find me there and uh i do have a youtube channel we've uh got a lot planned for it i mean myself ace and my dear friend carrie and some other content creators and comrades i'm going to start dropping youtube content i'm hoping right around mid-September

But if you join the channel, it's number seven, H-O-M-A-S-777, you know, Ben Prenzies, Thomas TV, there really will be a Thomas TV in a few weeks, okay? But there's nothing there right now, but don't think, like, don't be just like, you know, what the hell is this? Like, it's coming. That's what I've been up to. and in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my in my much Pete and um I am very much looking forward to uh the next episode which uh will be quite a bit longer um but uh I but probably more engaging than uh than just about uh everything uh everything we've covered so far thank you very much talk thank you Pete and thank you cool people

I want to welcome everyone back to the Piquanaynez show, continuing with Thomas 777. How are you, Thomas? All right. What are we doing, A? Well, today, I wanted to get into, you know, we deep dived substantially into the background of, you know, what became the International War Crimes Tribunal. You know, we deep dived into Justice Jackson and his background and a lot of the political intrigues that led to the, creation of the tribunal in the first place but

you know the question comes up a lot is like how the defendants who were indicted were selected you know and what what's such a political criteria you know weighed those decisions um as to who ultimately ended up

finding themselves under jeopardy you know and also I want to emphasize a little bit too how you know people tend to be dismissive of things um you know relating to anything that the vanquished allege in the aftermath of hostilities.

So people who only have kind of a rudimentary familiarity or kind of a dilettance understanding of other proceedings, I'm sure that they'll say, like, you know, oh, of course, you know, the detainees claimed that they weren't treated well. But I want people to understand that with the exception of a couple

of true civilians who found themselves in the defendant's stock it and we'll get into who those men were you know these were military men and they these were hard people okay uh these are not guys who complained about poor conditions you know they there were guys who'd literally come of age in the trenches of the great war you know there were guys who fought in the street during you know the national socialist called the years of struggle you know there were guys who's uh stock and trade and vocation was warfare they were they were not guys who were going to we're going to complain about about uh middling um

concerns okay um so there was an inherent credibility just wanted the fact of nothing else that it was an honor question that these guys really wouldn't raise issues about their own personal discomfort if such things weren't severe and beyond that most people thankfully i would imagine have never been under indictment i mean people who are uh you know watching and listening you know there's a there's something that's psychologically brutalizing about being incarcerated and it it precludes one's ability to effectively advocate for himself in psychological terms, but also being literally confined, you're not in the world. You know, think about how difficult it is to defend a case, you know, if you're literally incarcerated.

You know, not only do you not have freedom of movement, but, you know, if you're lucky, you might have access to a rudimentary law library, but, you know, in a lot of cases, not even that. You know, you've got to challenge the facts, as alleged by a state apparatus that, for all practical purposes, has inexhaustible resources. You know, you're at a huge disadvantage. And that's why there's due process protections, you know, afforded to defendants, because even a juristic regime, even a, and even, you know, even a penal law substantively that, that's uh that's geared towards fundamental fairness as much as that's possible you know it's understood that defendants are at a disadvantage so you know the way that the the way that nuremberg defendants were isolated and really kind of brutalized you know this really really was offensive

to justice okay um and uh i'm reading i'm reading carrie bolton's biography of yaki yeah and in the second chapter he he talks about what yaki witnessed and And he wasn't even at Nuremberg. He was in, God, I can't remember where he was. And he, it wasn't even Yaki who was mentioning how they were treated. It was high-ranking military officials. I mean, that these men, they were starved. They were frozen. They were, I mean, so many of them died in before they could even be brought to trial. And now a look at the forecast. We're seeing lots of wind, plenty of sunshine to come, and a lot of. long-term outlook that's bright for Ireland. At Airgrid, our forecast is for a sustainable energy future. We're upgrading the electricity grid so every home, business and community can benefit. We're powering up Ireland. Learn more at airgrid.i.

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incredible food and drink. My goodness, it's Christmas. At the Guinness Storehouse. Book now at giddhistorehouse.com. Get the facts be drinkaware, visit drinkaware.com. Yeah. Because of the conditions that they were subjected to.

I mean, whatever you think, I mean, really, how, How does the West come away with clean hands? How does the U.S. want to come away with clean hands? Well, yeah, absolutely. And also, you know, we were talking about the dock out trials before we started recording. And for clarity, for those who don't know, the dockout trials weren't trials relating to the concentration camp at doco. It was held in that facility, which I think is kind of macabre.

But that I've got my own feelings on that, kind of symbolic psychology of people of a certain background. who kind of make literally like secular holy sites out of places where people suffered, which I think is really ghoulish. But the trials that were held at DACA were of a first Leap Standardt, SS,

or first SS Leapstandardt, you know, they were kind of the jewel of the Woffin SS. And, you know, they fought in all theaters except Africa in the war. And they, they, were brought up on charges relating to the Malamity massacre, you know, the Battle of the Arden's

forest, which was a terrible event. I mean, nobody would say otherwise, but that trial was characterized by real prosecutorial malfeasance. And yeah, the, however anybody feels about a defendant that in a courts martial or in a conventional criminal trial, you, you know, there's no way you can justify abusing detainees. You know, we're depriving people with the ability, you know, to present their defense. And I mean, if you do, you're just kind of a brutish moron. But beyond that, I mean, you don't really understand the purpose of a due process. You know, it's not just for show or something.

I mean, it's, you know. Well, don't even, if you believe in the rule of law, if you believe it, just take them out and shoot them. Don't, you know, just take them in a field and shoot them. Don't pretend like something. something right and something under the law something that something civilized

is happening here. No, exactly. And there's also, there's no place for sadism either. Like you're not like, and these people too who like take on these kinds of, this kind of righteous guise of wanting to, you know, torture people or something. You know, it's like, I don't really believe that. I think they're just, I think a sadist is a sadist and, you know, people who kind

of dress up their impulses of that sort, you know, as some righteous. thing. I mean, I, there's something wrong with you if you want to torture people or, like, brutalized detainees. Like, it's not, it matters not if they're bad guys. You know, I mean, that's why, I mean, I, I suppose I'm kind of extreme

in that regard. I object even to victim impact statements, okay, because we're not, a court is in a place for people to, you know, to shriek about how hurt they've been, and, you know, and stir up the, and, you know, and whip up the tri-refact into some kind of righteous fury. I mean, it's not, there's no place in a courtroom.

You know, and, um, we don't, we don't, we don't, We don't execute people because we're mad at them or because we're going to hurt them either. It's because that's the punishment. And, you know, it gives them a chance to make peace with God and atone for what they did. In addition to the fact that the blood of the victims cries out for justice. But I didn't, I don't want to go too far afield. But kind of bringing it back what the prisoners in Nuremberg, you know they were in primitive conditions you know they were in a lot of in a lot of quarters

there wasn't you know heat or electricity or running water or anything you know so the detainees you know they were they were very cold very hot you know they were always dirty um but also they weren't able to reach the outside world okay like the the prisoners were given they were given writing supplies they were given uh you know materials to write private letters but uh any letter that was sent out by a detainee at Nuremberg was promptly seized by the chief of interrogation um you know and read over and kind of dissected uh you know by uh by by by by by psychologists as well as you know by uh investigating MPs you know who in the service of the prosecution as well as you know the the the prosecuting attorneys themselves so these these these letters are never

delivered to their destination this is this is simply a rule used to derive information of an intimate nature from the detainees, and it was very much kind of a psychological game being played with them. And, I mean, that can't be justified. I don't believe, you know, under the auspices of any kind of fundamental fairness or regime that purports to maintain fundamental fairness, but also, you know, again, just any defendant who's under indictment, whether we're talking about, you know, a traditional kind of felony indictment

and in a normal, you know, circumstance, you know, like, like one would be availed to do as, you know, the citizen of any functioning state, or if we're talking about, you know, a defendant brought up on charges by international war crimes tribunal, you know, you've got to be able to reach the outside world to fight your case, you know, and the fact that these men were splendidly isolated in this way, I mean, that, that didn't, that's beyond just a disadvantage, okay, vis-a-vis, the prosecution. I mean, it meant really that

you know, even all other abuses aside, I mean, that meant that there was no way these men could could get mount a meaningful defense, okay? The fact that a couple of them did version foremost,

Gearing is pretty remarkable. And that owes the kind of, when Gearing was sober, when he wasn't battling a drug addiction and when he wasn't you know he's suffering under what we'd probably consider to be mean you today he was an incredibly

he was an incredibly sharp intellect okay and you know he was privy to things that that meant a lesser rank would not have been and also he had he had something of he had something of perfect recall I believe

that does exist or something approaching it does exist But that's, you know, that's not the point regardless. The point is that these measures are tailored to deprive the defense of an ability to participate in their own defense or in any meaningful way, you know, prepare for trial. And that's unconscionable. And speaking of Gering, there was a, there was a mini scandal within, I mean, within the cloister of, of the of, you know, of the, of, you know, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, right after the, of the, right after, right after he was captured, I mean, not, not, you know, who was overweight and at health problems, he was marched of three flights of stairs to an interrogation room.

he was subjected to his meaningless ritual of being quote unquote discharged from the german armed forces and you know ceremoniously like stripped of his rank and uh you know the forcing him to you know frog marching him up these stairs like later that night he had a severe heart attack and almost died uh and one of the military doctors say you know if you keep subject him to this kind of treatment you're not going to have a defendant you know um and for the record you know like it's you know not not permitting him any exercise and not permitting him to go out of doors you know does violate geneva convention and uh after that at least in garrings case the uh the um the regime was somewhat softened but it's uh it's it's always been strange to me too and i mean i'll move on to the continuing with the factual record but just i want to insinuate um you know there was guys like this guy pearl at the uh at the uh at the at the at the dockout trials um you know and he he was a german jewish refugee and you know people i i i'd argue he had no business being allowed to participate in the proceedings because he was not an unbiased uh observer obviously but you know somebody like him as well okay fine you know

there's this kind of like ethno sectarian hostility between you know a man like they had and the defendants that kind of precludes you know civilized uh dealings of one enough and but like these American MPs who are kind of just from random places like it's the ability of Americans to whip up by random hatred against people and don't anything to them is like really kind of incredible to me it's it's a strange phenomenon and I don't think that other cultures have a similar uh phenomenon that's drawn upon regularly by the elites I mean most people need a reason to hate others like I never cease is to kind of stupefy me that you know there was like there was a huge segment of the American population who were like calling for calling for

the blood of Germany for no particular reason you know I mean I I understand in the case of Japan even I think it was a bit misguided but you know so people to keep that in mind too that after uh you know three years and nine months give or take of a war and uh the monopoly that the that the new deal regime had on on media you know quite literally they had uh they had cart blanche to censor whatever they wanted and the really control programming through institutions like the Office of War Information, but also by, you know, just literal control of the airwaves under auspices of, you know, national, exigent circumstances relating to national security and things like this. But that, you know, there was also,

there was, I believe, and this might strike some people as a minor thing. I don't think it is. if nothing else is the principle of the thing um obviously you know the international tribunal there's literally an army of lawyers and bureaucrats and support staff and uh military personnel you know who needed to be housed and needed to have you know uh facilities and amenities availed to them and uh in nuremberg like in all of germany cities you know it had been entirely ruined by deliberately by the uh by strategic uh by strategic bombing so the solution of this was that uh you know the the the u s army simply sought out uh what remained of a suitable housing um and evicted the people living there those rendering them homeless so that you know

judge jackson and his staff and everybody else you know could have the most desirable digs basically on the ground. And that's not just bad PR. I mean, I can't, making people homeless so that, you know, so that your legal team can, you know, can be, can be comfortably accommodated. I mean, there's, there's something, there's something basically wrong with that. And again, I, the basic meanness of the, of the American regime to Germany is something I'll never really be able to fully understand because it's, you know, I, you know, like,

deciding you're going to be outraged on behalf of, like, some. random other people who is not of your kind. I don't, I can't, I can't imagine insinuating myself into that kind of, into that kind of, uh, into that kind of, uh, into that kind of feeling. But I mean, I, I, I, I guess, you know, I guess people like us to the minority. I don't know. But the, um, there's also an issue of, uh, and we'll get to the, we'll get to the, we'll get to the defendants were named in a minute, or identified rather.

Um, the, uh, there was an issue of, uh, you know, who constituted, uh, the personnel of the national war crimes tribunal and like what these men's backgrounds were and whether they were politically tainted or not, okay? Um, initially, uh, initially the French delegation, uh, initially the French delegation had, uh, had a guy who, interestingly served in the Vichy government but it's basically a kind of perennially dissenting parliamentarian which kind of cuts against the idea

that this was this was this kind of brutish state under occupation where nobody had any political rights at all but August Champatier de Rabe he's actually the man who coined the phrase crimes against humanity he stated that a crime against humanity is a quote crime against human laws

motivated by an ideology that is a crime against the spirit returning humanity to barbarism that phrase doesn't actually mean anything if you unpack it it's uh it's hyperbole on uh on top of metaphor on on top of kind of soaring a moral assertion. I don't know how to unpack that in any way, shape, or form. You know, I mean, yes, I believe in natural law.

Like, yes, I believe in good and evil, but in, you know, that doesn't really have a place in a courts martial, and even if it did, that explanation is far from, not only as it inadequate, it doesn't it doesn't actually mean anything but um more uh uh more kind of uh you know um disturbing in terms of uh the constitution of the international war crimes tribunal and conflicts of interest therein um the uh the prosecution is kind of a ace in the hole was a man named robert kempner um Robert Kempner had a very interesting background. He was a German

and he'd made most of his career serving the Prussian Interior Ministry and he'd worked closely with the police which was interesting. And he ultimately ran a foul of the Third Reich, specifically Villalhelm Frick. And so intense became these conflicts that

Wilhelm Frick ultimately revoked Kempner's citizenship. And now, a look at the forecast. We're seeing lots of wind, plenty of sunshine to come, and a long-term outlook that's bright for Ireland. At Airgrid, our forecast is for a sustainable energy future. We're upgrading the electricity grid so every home, business and community can benefit. We're powering up Ireland.

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where he, for quite cynical reasons and political reasons, he became this kind of open opponent to the German Reich. He became something of a lobbyist, okay? His background also included, he sat in as an observer during the trial of a guy, this Armenian guy who'd assassinated a Turk

named Talat Pasha. In the last session, we talked about the Armenian genocide, okay, well, this Armenian, uh, he assassinated Pasha and revenge for the Armenian genocide, okay? And, uh, so Kempner early on, he developed kind of an interest in kind of this esoteric body of law, if we can even call it that, um, that was then developing around these kinds of, uh, these kinds of apoccal political occurrences, you know, that, uh, that, um, that, uh, people in the West, I mean, first and first among them, you know, Wilsonian types were, we're, we're trying to incorporate into some kind of, you know, into some kind of natural law

framework and they really got off the ground because it's not workable, but in any event, that Kempter had, uh, Kempter had a serious ax to grind with the German Reich, and as we've talked about, uh, you know, the structure of the Nureberg indictment, what was alleged, um, the role of various institutions and you know how they interplayed with executive power there was a there's a certain narrative within that that part of which is necessary

to establish the theory of the case but most of this came from Kempner because I mean he was he was alleging that you know he had he had insider knowledge of all these things in some instances that was true in some instances it wasn't but regardless

I mean it was a conflict of interest of a man like Kempner there at all, okay? I mean, who obviously had a personal, a very personal vendetta against individual men who he, uh, Mavor will be charged, have been charged

with prosecuting, but also entire institutions that he felt had wronged him. Okay, I mean, so it's, that's a, uh, that's a, that's a, that's another, uh, new on this case. And, uh,

Kempner, even though, uh, even though Kempner it's not clear that he knew Gering and the inner warriors he had this incredible hatred of Herman Garing and Garing would have featured very prominently in the indictment as well as in the narrative substantiating that indictment or alleged to be to have substantiated it or the fact that I mean he was kind of the last

living man of of comparable executive rank to there was no other man of comparable rank of life left okay and garing for a time at least had been Hitler's designated successor and beyond that I mean he was a key figure in the Third Reich but it there was a I do believe that the kind of so I mean Gary would have had a prominent role within uh as a targeted as a targeted individual but I do very much believe that the zealousness

and the fervor with which Gearing was was prosecuted owed very much to Kempner's own own sentiment and that'll come out as we do get into the case against Gering

because Kempner did you know was Kempner was not, Kepner was technically a second chair in that phase of the trial but he very much took center stage and we'll get into that. But finally, last I'll say about Herrick Kempner, the Vonsi Protocol,

which is basically what the Nuremberg Tribunal relied upon to substantiate its claim of the final solution. They claim that's literally, you know, the, that was literally the, not just, you know, the conspiracy that, that's not just when the conspiracy came into existence, but that's when, you know, know, the control group of the enterprise, you know, developed its mandate and, and then proceeded to, you know, issue orders to realize the, uh, its purposes. Um, and that would not have occurred to anybody or not for Kempner. This, the Kempner came up with this, okay, uh, which begs the question, in my opinion, you know, it's like, okay, this, if, you know, Kepner was not even in country at that point. And if this was this kind of super secret,

supposedly, you know, murder conspiracy that not even the furor was privy to as per its location, like how would Kempner have all this kind of grand insight into these things? But, of course, that's not the kind of thing people were going to unpack when, you know, they were just kind of looking for a penumbric

theory of the case. But kind of the last, the sort of last hurrahs that were, of Kempner's career was, he appeared very prominently at the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961, when Eichmann was snatched off the street in the suburbs of Buenos Aires by Mossade agents and Eichmann who was, I mean, he was a man of substantial rank in the Algamine SS, but he was kind of a bean-counting functionary of no particular portfolio, but it was declared that Eichmann was, quote, the architect of the Holocaust, which is very strange. But he was...

I thought everyone said Hedrich was... Yeah, I mean, that was... I mean, if you were going to assign anybody executive responsibility, I mean, it would be the chief of the SD, you know, who was Hydric and then Caldenbrenner. But if you read to... I think it's kind of a mixed bag as a scholar. You know, she was an acolyte and possibly a paramour of Heidegger. And she's got a very, very, she's got a very nuanced and objective view of Zionism.

But she does have some blind spots. But her book, Ikeman in Jerusalem, made that point. Like, why is this kind of functionary of, again, of not particular portfolio? You know, why was he declared, you know, the quote, architect of the Holocaust? It's, um, I've got my own theory on that, but I don't want to go too far afield. But yeah, any, if one accepts the Nuremberg narrative and one accepts the substance of what was alleged to be the conspiracy, yeah, obviously the, obviously the man who would be identified as such would be Hydric. And, and or Calton Bruner who took his place, but yeah, I mean, it doesn't make any sense. And even if I did, like, wow, Zichmann tried in Jerusalem.

like i mean so so are the jewish people and entity as a matter of law you one can offend against like that didn't make any sense but it uh but uh you know it but kepner you know very much uh he profited very much from this role that he he'd uh discovered and and kind of carved out for himself but uh he's another figure kind of like morganthau although not is not as important in policy terms obviously but he's he's one of these i mentioned him and I emphasize him because he is important and he's another man who's kind of like lost to history, you know,

and it's important to note for people who don't know or people are just kind of deep diving into the history of these topics, you know, how much, these were not neutral arbiters who just got to develop, you know, ideological sympathies. Like these, these men were tainted from inception by real

conflicts of interest and they were motivated by real animosities of a personal nature. You know, in that, that's essentially understand for things to come into correct focus. Kempner also, he took away thousands and thousands of pages and trial documents. Some of which was to deprive the defense of exculpatory evidence. And that was a big thing, the Nuremberg trials.

Okay, like any, as any trial lawyer will tell you or anybody who has any competence in the criminal law, you know, it's an absolute constitutional. imperative that a defendant be availed to any evidence that is a tendency to expulpate the defendant. There was no such right at Nuremberg and evidence that did have a tendency to escalate the defendants

was actively suppressed, destroyed, hidden. Very above board this was done. Okay? And Kempner, this was, he made elaborate use of that of that freedom of action

because decades later Kempner died he was quite elderly he was in his 90s when he died in 1993 and the entire diary of Alfred Rosenberg was discovered

in his personal property you know just huge amounts of documents that were thought lost to history you know this man had literally just stolen these things and and stacked them up in his home and various storage facilities and things like that

which was a, you know, which was a gross violation of law, custom, and procedure. I mean, even for the Nuremberg trials, even though that was a kangaroo court, when, you know, when, you know, what couldn't just, you know, steal thousands of documents and, you know, and make use of them like he would as personal property. I mean, there was, there was corruption from the top down here and all, you know, kinds of uh in all kinds of ways um and there's uh in the uh it's believed and uh by anecdote you know anecdote i witness testimony and and kind of incomplete statements that uh in the forest outside nuremberg the prosecutors made a huge bonfire one day and it burned a huge amount of material most of which

was mitigating documents and evidence and documentary evidence with the tendency to exculpate, but basically anything that could have foreseeably aided the defense case. Now again, there's, um, the evidence is murky, but

there's a, there's a huge amount of documentary evidence that once wasn't not only in existence, but was in the possession of the International War crimes tribunal. These included a huge amount of correspondence between Hitler and Eva Braun, Eva Braun's private diaries, you know, her complete private

diaries, uh, um, the diaries of Hans Lammers of, uh, of Heinrich Himmler, of Herman Gehring, these, these things had been cataloged and identified and were in the possession again of, uh, of the IT, of the international war crimes tribunal. Um, and then, and then they just disappeared, okay, for all time, you know, and, uh, it's, you know the the sheer value of material we're talking about plus i mean the value of it you know we're talking about we're talking about documents written literally in adolf hitler's hands we're talking

about you know heinrich kimler's complete diaries i mean this was stuff that would really be under lock and key figured of being literally okay like the idea that it could just all be lost one day is not credible and um so i mean there you go i mean it's in you know this a huge amount of these these right this deprived history of the answers as well as this being you know a gross breach of due process and and and and and in court ethics you know i mean it's there's one of the reasons why there's a lot of question marks on the third round the german rike is because you know just the purposeful destruction of evidence okay in a in a very calculated capacity um so that's something that's something uh people should keep in mind too interestingly

what what what was retrieved and what what to this day is uh is uh is available i um i think the documents the documents themselves are uh are uh are in germany but uh hans frank you know who'd been he'd been the lawyer of the party and then he became he was more than a galiter he was he was a chief executive of the general government in Poland

okay so I mean he was a man of very high profile in the Reich he turned his diaries over to to the intelligence officer the chief intelligence officer the US 7th Army I it's incredible to me that he would do something like that but like uh frank was a weak

individual and he was like spear he was uh you know he was trying to have he was trying to ingratiate himself to the prosecution any way he could which in my opinion is really kind of contemptible but uh you know hans frank's diaries are still extant um and that's quite literally the only the only testimony like that that is still available. Obviously the Gerbil's diaries were available, but that's because the Soviets had them. You know, and the first

Western historian to view them was David Irving when, you know, he in the early, in the mid-90s, when the FSB, the successor to the KGB allowed him to access to these things. But, you know, it, uh, it, it just doesn't

even if, even if somebody thinks that, you know, my opinion doesn't incredible because of my own sympathies, alleged sympathies or whatever. It's like, okay, well, you know, how come the bulk of all this material was cataloged and was acknowledged to be in the possession of the U.S. military authorities, but then it suddenly all disappeared.

I mean, it's not, that's not credible. Now, to give you an idea of what the defense was facing, the Nuremberg documents, what came to be known as the Nuremberg document. You know, what was drawn upon to Stell was the case in chief of the prosecution. And now a look at the forecast.

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we're talking about quite literally millions of pages of documents okay um it was so voluminous that an entire code system had to be developed to catalog them okay in some in any meaningful way so uh every all the number of documents were fixed with a document number and um these document numbers were fixed with a prefix from which somebody familiar with the cataloging system could deduce what it was in general terms like those prefixed with a C

indicated crimes okay a C and then a C indicated that you know these documents were seized by you know the British Admiralty or that they related to something you know of a maritime nature if it was prefects with a EC, it related to economic documents.

You know, relating to the rights bag, relating to, you know, the armaments ministry, like, you know, any number of things, okay? If something that was previous with ECH, it was something that had been corralled with a Heidelberg Document Center. Okay, at Heidelberg University, it'd become this kind of clearinghouse for official documents.

Before it was even within, you know, the kind of plation of, of anyone who there ever meets the road to convene an international tribunal okay just to give me an idea um if you're a nuremberg defendant you know you you can't communicate with the outside world you know you've got you've you've got no right to be availed due exculpatory evidence you know you've got no resources from which this you know you've got no subpoena power um you know uh you you're not even avail the adequate food. And what you're facing is

you're facing a tribunal that quite literally has the ability to avail itself of any surviving documents relating to the government of the German Reich. Okay. And they can redact, they can mischaracterize,

they can combine records to say, to to convey any narrative that they want and insinuate you as a defendant into circumstances, whatever they want, and there's no ability to challenge the veracity of that narrative

or to impeach the credibility of declarants whose testimony is relied upon to substantiate those narratives. Okay, I mean, it's literally a kangaroo court. And I know somebody's going to raise in the comments section, well, then why did men like Gearing, like, you know, why why did they utilize that to grandstand?

Because Gearing had to defend the German Reich in court. And because in so doing, he exposed it for what it was, but we're not quite there yet. But I, maybe it's because I was a lawyer for a time. And these days I deal a lot in data and trying to manage it.

And just this year, the sheer value of what's under discussion here is as ominous. I mean, even if there's parity of, you know, resources between the defense and the prosecution, it's, it's, it's, one almost gets a sinking feeling, thinking about how to defend oneself when you're dealing with that voluminous of a record. But, you know, considering, you know, no discovery rights, a situation. where no discovery rights would be extended to oneself,

I can't even imagine. It's like a Kafka-esque sort of a nightmare. But moving on, what we touched on last time, too, we got into some of the intrigues that were underway in London. I mean, there was always intrigues around Mr. Churchill and his patrons, but you know we got we got into the fact that you know like lord simon um he he was kind of walking a proverbial tightrope you know owing to the fact that he'd been an appeaser in the past and um so it uh he you know as the lord viscount he had to he had to take a prominent role

in the international tribunal a prominent prosecutorial role but uh he was very much staying you know in the proverbial shadows as it were because he did you know he His enemies were legion, and many of them were in media, frankly. And the Soviet Union, basically, you know, they were getting their way, frankly, owing to the fact that, you know, the kind of fix was in by the time Mr. Roosevelt died. But the question of who to indict very much fell on the American delegation. And there was a couple of things that colored this process, okay, not just the politics of it, but something that comes out in the documentary record and the papers of Justice Jackson himself, there's a real kind of ignorance to the allied prosecutors as well as the entire kind of American military establishment about Germany and about the German government and about the Third Reich.

These terms such as, you know, German high command and German general staff or Nazi general staff, this stuff's constantly bandied about in Jackson's papers and in, and in these communications relating to the, relating to, you know, who should be indicted. Um, when, I mean, these things, you know, these things really were kind of confabulations of, of, of, uh, of the office of war information or the fevered imaginings of, of, of, of, of media people. Like, there was no Nazi high command. And there wasn't a general staff under the Third Reich. I mean, there was, there was, there was over come on to Vermat, but there was not a general staff as there had been in Prussia or as there had been under the Kaiser. You know, it's this idea.

that there's this control group of, you know, like hardline national socialists you know, kind of in a literal bunker, you know, around Adolf Hitler who was this all-powerful godlike figure like that's nonsense. And that's also if you know the German army

that's not the way it's organized, you know, at all. You know, it, um, so there was a, there was a basic, uh, there's a basic kind of ignorance about that. And, but owing to this kind of, owing to this kind of prejudice and kind of unwillingness to sort of familiarize oneself with the facts, you know, both like individually and severally, like kind of on the institutional level, it led to, uh, it, it, it, over a hundred German senior officers, you know, General Oberst rank, uh, not just field marshals, but, you know, generals and even, any,

even, you know, men of the equivalent rank of, you know, lieutenant, what would be the equivalent rank in a NATO army of lieutenant colonel? Over a hundred of these men found themselves under indictment. It was linked only to their relative, relatively high rank, you know, in this, in this idea of, you know, a general staff or a Nazi high command that existed in the minds of these, uh, these allied intelligence officers. and uh and and and and in sciop uh civil affairs types i mean it's really i mean if nothing that's a gross injustice of none else okay i mean it's that i know that uh

even people who weren't particularly sympathetic to uh the german rike will discern uh the wrongfulness of uh of uh of indicting a man simply only the uniform he wears and you know the the prestige of his rank you know on grounds that that end of itself you know implicates him and some sort of wrongdoing. I mean, that's absurd. And that's distinctly un-American, too, I might add, you know, I don't, I'm not somebody who, you know, goes in for patriotic myths or anything. But there is, there was at one time, and I'd like to think to some degree there still

is an American way. And, you know, even at courts martial, we don't, we don't simply render judgment on defendants, only, you know, only their institutional affiliation or their, or the uniform they wear, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, however, of major war criminals, you know, we, we got into a few episodes ago, of, you know, they, generally, we got into the categorization scheme, you know, of, uh, of, of how, um, of how, of how the various defendants were identified, and, and,

the defendant for a legion, but, uh, you know, the quote, what's referred to, and kind of pop history is the, quote, top Nazis. And we think of the Nuremberg trials, the men we think about of the most senior rank in the political apparatus and military apparatus. Okay, we're talking about the men who are identified as, quote, major war criminals. And that, I'll go down the roll call of who, at the end of the day, it ultimately constituted. It was Herman Gehring, you know, as we already talked about, it was a grand admiral called Donitz. who uh you know in addition to being um the commander-in-chief of the creeks marine um he was the final chief executive in germany he was he was he was the rake president you know designated uh

by eric hitler in his last one testament eric raider also grand admiral eric raider probably only ended up in the defendant's docket on grounds that the soviets had him in custody um quite literally that's why There was Hans Frank, we talked about, you know, as the Governor General of Poland, Wilhelm Frick, you know, Reich Minister of the Interior. There was Hans Fritch, who again, he, like Rader had been, he was in the custody of the Soviet Union.

Fritz was a, he worked for Gerbil's ministry, and he was really kind of a technocrat. You know, he had a great attitude for radio. I mean, it was something of a broadcast executive. okay like in in in the public broadcasting corporation under the ministry of propaganda okay so it was he was kind of a a middling personage to be on this i to you know to be in this category but again it i i believe it was only the fact that you know he and raider were true the only major war criminals quote unquote that the soviets had their hands on uh is walter funk uh he was the rike

Minister of Economics there was a Helmar shocked and he's an interesting case too we'll get into him as we deep dive further moving forward there's Rudolph Hess and

you know we we've already dealt extensively with the matter of Hess and we will deal more with Hess when the time comes and discussing you know the litigation of his case There's Carlton Brunner, Ernest Kaltenbrenner.

He replaced Reinhardt Hyderick after Hyderick was assassinated as the chief of the SD, and thus the chief of the Reich Main Security Office, or R.S.H.A. There's Feld Marshal, Wilhelm Keitel. There was General Alfred Yodel, who was not a field marshal. He's often misidentified as such. there's Robert Lay He was He was chairman of the German labor front There was Constantine Nurath

He was the foreign minister prior to Rubentrop And he was the galiter of The Protectorate of Bohemian Morovia It was Franz von Poppin Von Poppin Von Poppin's kind of something of a tragic figure And he

He um His role in government perceives that as a national socialist. He was vice chancellor until 1934 and Hitler appointed him as such really to placate the conservatives and government. After that,

he was named by Hitler as a special plenipotentiary in Austria and later ambassador to Turkey. So Hitler basically, you know, gave him a sinecure and sent him off. So Ivan Poppin only found himself indicted in Nuremberg, only his literal proximity to Hitler, which is another gross injustice.

Yacquem von Ribbentrop, of course, he was the Reich foreign minister from 1938 onward. Alfred Rosenberg, the Reich Minister of the Occupied Territories, he's in an old fighter. Fritz Salkel, he was General Plinopetentiary for manpower. He was insinuated very much into the Armin's ministry and production quotas as the situation deteriorated. There's Baldur von Scherach, Gallauder of Vienna, and commander of the Hitler Youth. There was Arthur Seiss Inquart,

Wright Commissred in the Netherlands, Albert Speer, who I think needs no introduction. And finally, it was Julius Stryker, Gallauder of Franconia, later dismissed. But the reason he found himself indebted in Nuremberg is because he published a magazine. Quite literally, he published a magazine that had crude racial jokes and propaganda

that malign Jews. That's it. Think of a kind of racialized version of Mad Magazine, and that's what he published, and that's why he was executed, if you can believe that. A fascinating wrinkle of this is that everybody's familiar with the Krupp arms

works in the Krip family. The French demanded that some member the Krupp family be indicted, but the patriarch of the Krupp family was totally senile. There was an effort

to indict the son, but it was difficult to place him in any in any in any indictable role. There was discussion of indicting the daughter, Bertha Crop, but Jackson declared it would be, quote, unseemly to hang a woman, but they literally were just rolling the dice saying, like, we need an industrialist, to quote, industrialist to hang.

You know, I mean, it's really, really incredible. I mean, even for a politicized proceeding. And towards the, in that vein, Jackson, after the, after the, after the four corners of the indictment were kind of agreed upon, Jackson took a vacation to Rome. and you might notice because you're a learned guy and other people that conspicuous absence of Italian fascists in the Nurember indictment. And the reason why

is because they basically all been hanged and they'd been lynched. You know, Jackson, he visited the Judge Evigant General for the Mediterranean theater, a guy named General Richmond and he inquired about this.

He said like, what, you know, basically, advise me the status of your major war criminals and they were just all dead. They've been literally hanged, you know, some had been shot. Some of these men, they'd simply been murdered by men who coveted their job, you know,

and I mean, like, it was that. But that's why, you know, no, it's not that the Italians didn't cut a deal or something. I mean, what happened in Italy is really fascinating. I mean, first of all, the Baramac was never actually defeated there, like the war descended, so they Burmock they've been holding the U.S. Army at Bay just went home. The landings at Salerno, it wasn't quite as bad as the Hurricane Forest, but it was a

disaster of the U.S. Army. And, you know, the entire country was devastated. And, yeah, the, if you want to know, there was the Nureberg trials and there was the Tokyo trials, but, you know, Neri, an Italian officer or black shirt, you know, found himself in the defendant's docket. It's because there were these. These guys are just murdered without trial, unceremoniously. You know, and that should give people pause. I mean, at least, I learned it as a kid. I think in one of Irving's, David Irving did a lecture years back.

I mean, you're, you know, you and I are in proximate age to one another. Like, you know, when the interviewer's struggle of view, they literally could order like tapes from them. And then, like, you know, where they had CDs, that was, like, the big tech innovation, but Irving actually talked about Italy for one of his lectures, which is hard to find. I was trying to find it again, and I can't.

But I ordered it on tape. And, uh, he talked about that because, like, somebody in the audience was like, yeah, what, you know, what happened to the, you know, what happened to the fascists? And, like, you know, the old revolutionaries, you know, under Mussolini. And they, they all got shot or hanged or, you know,

otherwise done in without trial or any any semblance due process but um I uh I kind of want to end here and then uh we're going to uh when we can we can record again anytime you want and we reconvene we're going to dedicate the entire hour

to the trial of Herman Gearing if that sounds good sounds good um let's give your plugs and we'll end Yeah, I shall do so. I'm very happy to state that I've got three long-form projects that are due to be released. First, and most imminently, is, you know, the second steel storm volume. I'm going to try and release the third steel sort of volume on the heels of that, hopefully around January. I'm also working, what P. and I are talking about here, this deep dive into the Nureberg Tribunals activities. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm putting this into book form, and I'm going to try and release this by wintertime, early spring, maybe like February

March. So that's something to look for. I've got a big announcement of my substack, because we're adding a regular we're adding a regular audio component that I think people will be excited about. So look for that. By the end of the week, Friday, Saturday, I mean, I love that announced. You can find us on our telegram channel. It's quite active and there's some really, really great people there. Some great conversation.

It's t.m.m. slash number 7-h-o-M-A-S-7-77. Or it's the Thomas 7-77, but number seven. You can find me on Gab. I back up all of our stuff on Gab, even though I'm not real active. It's just at Real Thomas 7-77. Those are the best places to find me.

We got a YouTube channel that's we're going to launch uh in september the channel's up but there's nothing there's no content there yet but if you do subscribe um as soon as content does populate that uh the channel i mean obviously you'll you'll have notice of it um and it's just uh the channel you can find the channel's just under you know my my handle number seven h m as 777 7 in parentheses thomas tv so that's uh that's what i got i appreciate it um yeah I wanted to, so you were talking about how you were going to write something based on this, but you're going to just basically make it about surrounding the Nuremberg, the trials?

Yeah, I want to, I think people are hungry for stuff that's dense, but relatively, you know, digestible. I want to make it like 180 to 200 pages, you know, just kind of like a, you know, just kind of like a short but very detailed description of the proceedings. and yeah it'll kind of be a compliment to what we're doing here but you know it also it's it'll just kind of give people like attic lance facts and uh you know again like a thorough but condensed description of the proceedings itself i mean what we're doing here has been a way more thorough and global as it were but yeah that's uh the book's going to be called uh the number of system and international jurisprudence and if it goes it goes over a 200 page is fine, but I'm going to try and keep it

to that. And if I absolutely have to go far beyond that, you know, I'm probably going to make a second volume. But yeah, that's what is afoot right now. All right, Thomas. I appreciate it. Thank you. How are you done, Thomas? I'm very well, thanks. I wanted to get into today.

I made the point earlier as we've gotten into sort of the concrete particular controllers of the International War Ims Tribunal and the theory of the case. You know, I made mention that Herman Garing features front and center in this drama for a few reasons, not just because Garing was a bombastic individual and he had a way of sort of insinuating himself into the center of events in a very real way. But also, Garing was not only the highest ranking member of the right government still alive, but as we're going to get into today, after the flight of, after the flight, after the flight.

of Rudolph Hess, who was formally assigned the title of Deputy Fuhr, Garing was, he was designated as the successor to Adolf Hitler in all offices by Hitler's own hand as a codicil to his last Will and Testament, dating the 1941. And that's important understand as to how garing conducted himself and the way the international war crimes tribunal responded to him now i also want to make the point i'm going to get into some of the factual circumstances regarding garing's career during the war years garing in some ways in his role uh as a reichs marshal and uh commander chief of lufa was an unmitigated disaster okay that goes without saying and we're going to we're going to get into exactly what I mean by that.

But Garing was incredibly disengaged from the fighting of the war. Owing to his kind of indulgence, his sort of decadence, and kind of as a psychic defense mechanism to avoid the kind of horror of what was going on around him. And very much, Erhard Milch, who's a seminal figure of the Third Reich, who's not really afforded enough attention. and David Irving wrote an outstanding biography of him which was essentially Milch's oral history because Irving had sought out Milch

decades after the war where Milch was living with a niece in a West Berlin suburb just as kind of an elderly pensioner and Irving quite literally knocked on his door introduced himself and in the way that Irving apparently is able to do he really kind of seduced the man's sympathy

and you know milch uh milch wasn't just kind of a hero of the german rike and what he tried to do and what he accomplished in terms of defending its cities from destruction but milch also uh you know he was the founder of uh of luftanza which is one reason why you know he became so insinuated into the national socialist party in the early days but also in terms of modern uh air warfare i mean he really was a pioneer okay i mean he people talk about shucky And I'm not putting shade on Jaeger. And, you know, they talk about the Mercury 7. It's like, well, you really ought to be talking about Earhart-Milch,

if military aviation is your thing. Okay. And one of the reasons why Milch was able to, he was the hero of the battle of Narvick, but also, Milch essentially ascended to that role by necessity because Garing had checked out. And why am I, why am I making such a big deal about this? It's like, well, if what the International Warcrum Tribunal alleged was true, that would imply that Garing,

not only, you know, do you have formal office and portfolio in the Reich, but he had a very hands-on executive role. And I don't think that was, I don't think that is true, okay? I mean, that I realize that if you accept the theory of the International War Crime Tribunal, it doesn't matter, like competence is not the poll star, but intent and, and, and, and capabilities, and actual authority are relevant, okay? And, uh, Garying very much acquitted himself. as a man um when he was on trial and uh i think he actually surprisingly um he kind of shocked everybody in in the gallery from from the press to the to the prosecution team to the assembled judges to his co-defendants you know he kind of shocked everybody because when he you know he he'd he'd been

starved in prison so he was no longer obese he'd been forced to kick morphine so he was sober you know he he he he became the man he was when he you know was a was a hero of the ricktoff and squadron in the great war once again and uh you know he he kind of he kind of he kind of redeemed himself in history in a way that is rare based on what he what he did um in his defense of the rike and of the men who were facing the gallows long with him but that was there even gearing and the one who was that who existed during the war years okay and And I want to fully convey what I'm talking about, I want to take people to, you know, April 1945, you know, when the German Reich literally consists of Berlin and, you know, a few miles east and westerly, you know, in its suburbs, you know, and the Red Army is annihilating everything in its path.

and, you know, the furor himself has retreated to the furor bunker with a few trusted adjutants, with what remains of the here, high command, you know, Yodel, Keppel, Krebs, Bergdorf, you know, Hitler's Earthwell, Secretary, Troutle Young, and, you know, a handful of other people. And when we've seen the film Downfall, Durantirgang, you know, knows that sets the scene rather accurately, okay? Well, Rex Marshall Gehring was nowhere near Berlin. He was 300 miles away and is over Salzburg Villa. And he was quite literally sipping on cognac and smoking good cigars and carrying on as if he was going to be a position to negotiate with the allies. He really believed this. And what he did was he summoned Hans Lambers, who, along with Hans Frank, had been,

Lambers carried legal paperwork going to executive succession with him at all times, including the consul that I mentioned to Hitler's will. um garing summoned uh lamers who was who'd become persona nangrata and hitler's inner circle already owing to politics he'd largely been ripped by martin boorman but point being uh lamers uh was still maintaining at least the illusion of uh of the chain of command at this point in part because he had nothing else you know so he he hightailed it to over salzberg um garing ordered him to to open the, rip open the codicils, and there it was in plain language, you know, Herman Gearing dated, you know, July 29th, 1941, you know, Herman Gearing was a successor to the furor in all

in all offices. So what does Gearing do? In the most obtuse, delusional move one can imagine under the circumstances, he immediately sends an urgent telegraph message to the furor bunker asking if Hitler's alive and saying that he suspects if Hitler's alive is no longer in his right mind. So he, writes Marshall Garing, should become the furor. Hitler didn't accept this too well.

You know, considering that Hitler was, you know, realized he was going to have to commit suicide. And so he ordered Garing to be arrested immediately and underpainted death, okay? And, you know, when Garing got the word that he was now considered an enemy of the Reich.

This still didn't disabuse him of the idea that you know, this was, he could still find some way out of this. And when the U.S. Army finally showed up at Ober Salzburg, Garin put on his best uniform. And he

took his, uh, his, his feld marshal's baton with him. And, uh, the colonel who, uh, placed him under arrest, Garing said, well, I'm, I'm ready to go see Eisenhower now. You know? so we can negotiate because, you know, for all practical purposes, you know, I'm the

furor of the German Reich. And these army officers were really taken aback. And, I mean, slowly but surely kind of reality said in with Gering that, you know, he was going to be sent to the gallows and that, you know, he'd, you know, there was, there was no way, there was no way to be viewed as any kind of legitimate executive. And, I mean, again, I made the point before too, and I don't want to go too far afield again, but Hitler in some ways was the only, I mean, true to his kind of

character in the past, whatever you think of Hitler, Hitler was not a delusional type, and he was not prone to flights of fantasy, and the fact that Hitler assigned Donitz as a, you know, Reich president, not a furor, but president, because he thought Donets would be, you know,

if he knew Donuts was universally respected, you know, by both the communists and the Western allies. And he knew Donnitz, you know, as a man of integrity and would put the German people first. I mean, that indicates a groundedness that was lacking in everybody else in the executive coterie. So I just make that point a lot because people have this kind of cartoon image of, oh, Hitler was commanding phantom armies and chewing on the carpet and looking at star charts, that's bullshit. That doesn't make any sense.

okay um if anybody was in that if anybody was so compromised it was hair gearing okay and um how we got to this point uh is important and this bears are this bears also directly on gearing's liability

or is lack thereof in uh in terms of the the tribunal and um I'm not going to get into right now like whether we accept the legitimacy of the tribunal or not all that matters is within the bounded rationality of uh of its own uh of its own self-declared legitimacy you know was gearing liable for what was alleged and as i've said garing was basically the stand-in for ed off hiller okay i mean he was he was he was the he was the ranking man um in uh who who was

still alive and available for trial um you know he was he was at one time you know the designated the successor to the furor. He was, until he was sidelined really again by his own vices, you know, he was arguably the most powerful military officer in the German right. Okay, and that changed by 1943,

44. But the fact is, I mean, there's there's a, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, how I can say that, you know, uh, he was not really liable. owing to the fact that he sort of removed himself from a true command role, I realize I've got to kind of justify that statement.

So what, that's what I call my notes here, is that I make sure I'm not screwing up any dates. People have asked me, like, when in the course of these sessions, you're kind enough to record me, like, what am I looking at on my laptop? Generally, it's dates, because I do not, I, I, I've got a pretty good mind for dates, but my memory is not infallible, and I, I want to make sure that I don't drop an incorrect date. So generally, what I've got, like, on my notes is dates. I'm basically shooting from the hip during this, and I, I, I, nobody's complained yet, so I, I think that that's an okay format. But, uh, as I indicated a moment ago, it was June 28th, rather than June 29th, 1941, that, uh, that Hitler declared that Gering was his successor to all of his offices. And how that came about was interesting.

Okay, so mind you, June 28th is only six days after Operation Barbarossa has been implemented. Okay. Gearing at this point is still relatively sober. He's very much engaged with the Lufafa. He's very much engaged in his role as a military commander in what's become a total war. What he's concerned about is that Martin Borman, who, as people might recall, was basically Hess's personal adjutant and his number, excuse me, number two man at the right chancellery.

Borman was very much a sinister Machiavellian and he utilized his proximity to Hitler to accrue tremendous personal power acting as something of a gatekeeper to Eddorf Hitler and creating these kinds of barriers to access through which, you know, he, he had become a highly the spies by everybody within the executive branch. And Garing's great fear was that Bormann would find a way to insinuate himself as

his former patron Hess had and become deputy furor of a sort. And that literally had been, Hesse's office had been literally the staff of the deputy furor. That was dissolved after Hesse's flight in favor of, it was merely

rebranded the National Socialist, German workers' party chancellery under Borman, but Garing, you know, Garing was a lot personally closer to Hitler than Borman was. You know, they went back decades. Garing was a, Garing had been wounded gravely at the, at the Munich Pooch on November 9th, 1923. And at this point, he was very much to Hitler's good graces. So, Garing on this date, he requested

the Hitler grant basic assurances relating succession to government in event of Hitler's death. So the following day on 629, 1941, Hitler drafted the secret decree, which became the codicil, confirming Gering as the sole successor and identifying him as, you know, the furors, quote, deputy in all offices. Now, why was Hitler so positively disposed towards Gering? Again, at this point, you know, literally a week into the Barbarossa campaign, the Lufth had enjoyed just massive technological supremacy on the Eastern Front, totally unprecedented. Erhard Milch, speaking of Milch, his diary, which was voluminous and prolific, and it contained, it shows you what a pure soldier and executive Milch was.

It contained a handful of kind of funny euphemisms about girlfriends and when Milch got lucky, like in his own kind of little code. But other than that, it's essentially all like military stuff and all things relating to Lufthons and its performance and aircraft specific. and battlefield attrition numbers and production figures. See, I mean, you can take whatever Miltz documented you can take to the bank for its accuracy, okay? The Miltz's records indicate that on the first Sunday of the week of Barbarossa, over 1,800 Russian warplanes were destroyed. That following Monday, 800, 557 on Tuesday, over 350 on Wednesday, And on the fifth day, June 26th, over 300 fighter aircraft were eliminated.

So, I mean, this was incredible. You know, like, the Red Air Force was just getting annihilated and hand over fist. And this has been a big concern. Because prior to the war, one of the reports that Gering issued when he was far more sober of mind, figuratively and literally, you know, he'd visited Soviet production facilities. and he'd realize that just one of the Soviets

three primary aircraft production facilities could out produce all German fighter production facilities combined. Okay, so I mean, if the great fear was that you know, the Red Air Force was producing hardware on a par with their armor,

you know, in terms of quality, in terms of battlefield versatility, and in terms of raw numbers, okay? So not only it was this impressive, finding metric that the Lufthoff was scoring this kind of attrition it was essential for the for the war effort to succeed, okay?

So this was probably garing at Ed is zenith, okay? Well, in terms of his personal performance and the favor he enjoyed with the furor. And although, you know, as we've talked about, the third of right was not as primitive dictatorship as it's commonly cast as

it was a state in a total war with an unusual chief executive who had a, had a remarkable mandate vested in the man himself rather than his office. Okay, so access to the furor, as well as fighting oneself and his good graces, was imperative in a way it would not be in a more normal regime. Okay, that goes to us saying. Now, this by no means eliminated Gearing's rivals, which, you know,

owing to what I just described, there was a weird kind of agonistic pluralism to the Third Reich. a lot of kind of midway historians like Ian Kershaw described to this intrinsic social Darwinism of Hitler. Like, that's not the case. That's stupid. However, unlike the Soviet Union, which was, you know, a party state from the ground up that had literally wiped away the ancient regime by a combination of destruction, mass homicide, and revolutionary restructuring, you know, the third Reich inherited what was a

a state with hundreds of years of precedent in an incredibly developed civil apparatus you know if we go if we consider the

unified Kaiser Reich and subsequently the you know the third Reich through the legacy state of Prussia you know you're talking about you're talking about kind of the foremost that modern government

into the era okay um the national socialist could not just sort of impose their designs on on a tabula rasa uh that wasn't their ambition in the first place because their entire claim to legitimacy was that you know they had that emerged from within the organic political structure and they were not revolutionaries in the sense that they wanted to tear down what had come before but rather to perfect it and uh extricate uh enemies from uh within uh within uh within within within the national organism, and hence the state of itself, you know, while preserving the, well, preserving the essential

structure of it. So, you know, this idea that, this idea that, like, Hitler was courting anarchy within his own ranks is not true, but structurally, it was there. And nobody was truly secure, so, unless he was, unless he was absolutely indispensable to the war effort by this

point, okay? And, uh, Gehring, again, still being fairly sober-minded at this point, recognized this. now interestingly um kind of paring down the narrative to the hard and fast of what was garing's liability again according to the bounded rationality of the war crimes i'm not speaking in absolute terms

i'm not saying that these you know the allegations presented were legitimate in absolute terms or or as a theory of law or as a or as a claim of fact okay you what um in terms of uh you know defending garing within those parameters that i just raised we've got to consider garing's relationship to the s s and specifically to ryanard hydric who uh garing had a very peculiar relationship with um garing frankly disliked himmler but he issued an order to uh everybody within the luthvaa and particularly within the lufufa's own intelligence service, which was very, very powerful.

And unlike the other intelligence services within the military, such as that within the Creeks, Marine, and the here, the cryptological and intelligence office of the Lufotho was flagrantly national socialist in nature, okay? It was a political

organization, and it did not hide that. But, owing to that, it meant that garing himself and garing his people had a lot of contact with Ryanard Hyderick because Hyderick wasn't just the number two man in the SS

he was the boss of the SD you know he was the rank he was the ranking a higher SS and police leader I mean so not only did he have military rank and not only did he not only did he have a hold of political office and formal portfolio relating to his

counterintelligence responsibilities he was quite literally the top of law enforcement an officer in the Third Reich. And for a time, it was also the chief of Interpol, which and later, so was Kelton Brenner. I've always thought that was kind of a funny fact. I mean, not funny

and ha-ha, but like intriguing about Interpol. But, so Garing had, uh, garing was forced to have a rapport with Hydric, whether we wanted to or not. And Garing was afraid of him. And Garing would say in confidence to people like

Hans Shonik, who will, he will come up again shortly and will describe his kind of tragic course. He'd say things like, you know, Hydric knows better than to pick a fight with me. That's not the case. Hydric,

I do refer to keep Gearing's power very much intact, okay? And there's a good reason for that. I've made the point before and some of you disagree with me and that's fine. I mean, alternative history is alternative history. I made the point that Reinhard Hydrick

would have been would have succeeded that off Hitler as fear in summer if Hitler had simply victorious Third Reich if Hitler had died or you know step down or become demented or you know

ceased to be the the fear of the German Reich I've no doubt that Hydra would have succeeded them okay and initially he would not have succeeded him directly a man like Gehring would have And Gearing, for all of his gaudiness and bombast, the German people really like Gearing. And Gearing was a gangster, but Gearing also is very much a politician.

Okay. It's very easy to imagine a scenario in which Gearing is out front as, you know, the Richthoff and squadron war hero, you know, and the Grand Rijks Marshall, you know, and him being the frontman of the regime, you know, the Hydric, the cop, and the Machiavellian. psychopath, you know, being the true power behind the throne. And eventually, you know, he's gearing ages. And Hydric was a very young man. Hydrook was in his 30s, okay? As gearing ages, and as people become more and more habituated to

Hyderick's reign, brutally, brutal and efficient as it may be, you know, Hydric would slowly, would surely emerge as, you know, as the, uh, the fear of the German Reich. Um, particularly too, because the victorious Reich, uh, would have,

would have come to terms with, uh, would have come to terms of the United States in some way, but you better believe a Cold War would have ensued between the United States and the greater German Reich. And its intensity would have been very much as critical as that between the United States and the Soviet Union at the crisis points between the two superpowers that didn't emerge. So I believe this was very much on Hydrick's mind

as he plotted his career. you know so he courted gearing uh very much too and and uh intimidated him in subtle ways but but but also made sure to not do anything that would compromise gearing standing um now this becomes very important to the nuremberg uh tribunal and uh it's allegations the relationship between hydrick and gearing on july 1st 1941 Gearing went to the air ministry on grounds that

he was told by he was told by the SS Adjutant to the air ministry that Gestapo chief Reynard Heidrick had needed a favor from the Reichs marshal and Garing said what is that favor? He was informed that

that Hyderick required the Rice Marshal's signature edit documents. And the SSIgeant that showed up, had drafted it himself. He'd even typed Gary's letterhead on it. And he just asked, you know, very deferentially, respectfully, if the, you know, if the, her rights marshal would sign it.

So, Garing signed it, didn't bother reading it, and then hurried off to, you know, whatever it was, Garing did day to date, okay? Now, this signature is basically what

condemned garing to the gallows and I'll explain why in a moment the language of this paper the significant language empowered Hydrick to take quote all necessary measures

to resolve or make all necessary preparations for an overall unraveling the word is law sung unraveling solution of the Jewish problem within Germany's sphere of influence in Europe. Now, what does that mean? In context, it depends on, it depends on where one was standing, it depends on what was

within one's contemplation, and it depends on what, what information one had at their disposal. And I made the point before that there was a certain insularity to departments, within the Third Reich. Part of this was willful ignorance, because, and it's particularly regarding the relationship between Hydrick and Gearing, the less Gearing knew about Hydrick's doings

the safer he was in some basic capacity. And even in the more normal regime, it's not, people do not, people do not want to really be in citizen, particularly at that level. I do know something about

the way political power works and structural terms and hydric was a lot of things and he doesn't really have a parallel in a state like the united states of the u.k an official sort of counterpart i mean but uh you know he was a war hero he was a he was a counterintelligence chief but he also at base he was a policeman okay and that's the way he wanted to have to look at him it uh you know and this was around the time too that uh Gearing really, he really began to develop a kind of avoidant personality as regards, you know, the fortunes of the Reich at war. And this was not accidental. I mean, again, it, it, um, it, uh, it, it was part of his unwillingness to kind of confront failure, um, when, uh, when, when it was truly

emergent. And, uh, the, uh, there was a, um, One of the things, kind of the final sort of, the final sort of, the kind of, the final sort of conspiratorial act of Gearing was that as August 1941 dragged on, you know, as we've talked about before, and again, I don't want to go too far afield on military topics, but this is important. It was recovered when we taught in the Barbarossa episode. This was one of the real conjurries he developed when Hitler and the general staff. You know, Hitler demanded the divergence to Kiev, you know, to smash the Red Army's reserves so they could not reconstitute in his mind. And then subsequent a two-pronged pincer attack

extending towards Leningrad and the Caucasus to be accomplished and those armies in place before the assault on Moscow could commence um the idea was that you know the assault on Moscow would be postponed until Leningrad had fallen

and Hitler acting like the siege commander that he was uh was overly cautious and not completely habituated to the nuances of modern mechanized warfare um this caused the

this is this is this is what really caused the kind of permanent rift between Edolf Hitler and the German army for all time. Now Gearing kind of vociferously took the furor's side

you know the point that some historians including David Irving have characterized it as you know metaphorically you know you know trying to act more Catholic than the Pope you know Garing started demanding he said demanding that these people and the general staff be brought up on charges and things like that, you know, for refusing to execute fear his orders in the field, things like this.

You know, he went as far as, he went as far as the demand that one of, what a Brousche's adjutant to be executed. Even Hitler were not willing to go that far. but it became clear that it became clear that you know garing it for all time kind of alienated

the military establishment and yeah the Lufo was very different than the here in the Kriegs Marine but soldiers do stand together and when garing kind of came out as the sort of nakedly political animal that compromise that compromises credibility

as a field marshal frankly and then that that that um that that plays into this equation too um because it's uh it's indicative of the fact that uh you know um once uh once the once the once once the lufa began uh reconstituting itself in earnest it was really owing to the it was really only the genius of milch and it had really nothing to do with garing's own directives And, uh, that's important, too, I believe. Um, if we're going to cast Garing as kind of the, it, every, we're going to cast him not just as, you know, an architect of the Holocaust, but also as a preeminent military leader within the German Reich. Okay. So I, um, my point is that, uh, these things all taken together, you're, you're looking at, uh, you're, you're looking at something of a broken man and uh by the time um you know by the by the time the war truly

by the time the war truly began to resolve against germany and i'd say really 9042 um i mean the the die was cast by then i realized most people would put the the kind of final nail as it were at cursed or something but that's that's that's that's misplaced but what finally sidelined gearing was Ernst Ernst Udett who I think we've mentioned before

Udett was he was basically the armist minister or the procurement and technology minister for the air ministry, okay? Think of kind of what Albert Spears' job was in

mobilizing civilian infrastructure structure towards military purposes. Well, Udett kind of, that was his role kind of within within the domain of military aviation. But Udett was a complete disaster. He was another hero of the Riktoffin squadron. You know, he served with Garing. He had no aptitude for the role, you know,

his pure nepotism that he was assigned it. He committed suicide on November 17. 1941 and it became clear uh after his suicide that he uh he'd uh he'd uh he'd fabricating productive production numbers um these uh the uh the uh the you know he'd sabotaged in it you know just just by just just by negligence uh you know the uh the uh what would have been suggested by Mr. Schmitz and other design firms, you know, he'd set back production timetables by months and in some cases even years, you know, so this, essentially, Germany found itself by 1942, you know, and this was obviously, you know, this was obviously, you know, after the,

after the assault in Moscow and stopping his tracks, the Reich found itself unable to reconstitute its losses in the Luftwaffe and Milch took his place and Milch accomplished what was thought to be

impossible in terms of his production in terms of exceeding production quotas and that's also why incidentally the German Air Force was able to put such hurt on the U.S. Army over over the target area

in Germany proper in 943-44 because by by 94 there was months where Germany was producing 1,700 fighters a month

which still was not anywhere near adequate to defeat the combined element of the Royal Air Force the U.S. Army Air Forces, but considering the losses they've sustained and considering the desperation, of the situation that is remarkable and that owes exclusively to Earhart-Milch.

Now, what was Gering doing this time? As the assault on Moscow halted, Garing was touring around France. He was, you know, having, he was meeting with art dealers in Paris. You know, he was going, he was dropping in on, you know, an aged aristocrats

that he made the acquaintance of when he was married to his first wife, who was literally a Swedish princess. You know, there's a, there's an inverse relationship between, you know, Germany's fortunes deteriorating and garing, disengaging himself more and more from his official duties and rolls. And he flippantly remarked, apparently, on the 6th of December, he visited what remained of the Jewish bazaars of Amsterdam,

like looking for tapestries and artwork. And he said matter of fact of somebody that there's far a few, there's a lot less, there's a lot fewer Jewish merchants here now than there used to be. You know, he wasn't making a joke, okay? So, I mean, it's like if this was, you know, there's dozens of anecdotes about the disengagement of Gary. And if he supposedly was this, you know,

was this rabid ethnic sectarian bigot who had, You know, who had his kind of mind singularly set on, you know, the, you know, planning the kind of racial restructuring by homicide of Europe. But it does not seem to be a man who was particularly engaged with such a role. It's believed that the very next day, when he was vacationing in the Rhineland, when he telephoned Hitler, is when he was informed of the assault on Pearl Harbor. and that was the that was only then that he uh it was only then that he was aware made aware of the strategic situation i mean think about that um this is a man who was uh who was in uh his

equivalent today would be you know the uh the the air force uh chief of staff okay i mean i this how is this possible but again it owes the it owes the strange kind of uh loyalty and esteem afforded the old fighters and national socialist regime and um you know the uh the ability of garing to insinuate himself into uh into the quarters of power against uh the judge better judgment of his fellow man um interestingly as i'm not sure if we talked about here before the hitler's rankstock speech on the summer 11th 1941 is remarkable for a lot of reasons um that are a little too in depth for me to dive into here

because they would go off the topic. But that was also when Hitler declared war on the United States. And in my opinion, the United States had been at war with Germany for a long time. And even if you don't accept that, on September 11, 1941, the U.S. Navy had declared unrestricted warfare on all German flag vessels. But beyond that, Hitler did not consult Gehring before issuing the war declaration. And this was remarkable, because that means that the Senate, that garing had been uh had been removed um ceremoniously from the furors war cabinet and from that

point forward um and from that point forward uh gary never recovered at that kind of clout that he had at one time and he was no longer even really treated as a uh as one would think a field marshal and not just that but one with permanent portfolio in government um not just as a military commander but as a high as a high official you know it's it's incredibly strange that he he continued on in this kind of limbo just sort of living this sort of like comically lavish lifestyle as a

as is an engorged fop but the uh particularly um particularly because I mean air power it's always been overstated uh

I mean from the time military aviation from the time military aviation was first emergent in uh 1914 until today, people always overstate air power and its ability to resolve battlefield exigencies. However,

air power is essential, and, you know, the fact that, you know, we're not talking about some middling cavalry general or something who owed his prestige in his portfolio to the fact that he was an old fighter or that he was a friend of the fear. We're talking about, you know, the, again, too, the commander of the Air Force.

you know it's it's incredible that that um that this was allowed uh allowed to develop frankly and that that that that's kind of the glaring exception to the to the to the um to the kind of cliche which which which which resounds in reality of you know german efficiency and everything else but the the um the uh now coming back uh coming back to coming back to the order that Gehring signed for a hydric the reason why I bring this up

is because obviously what featured very prominently at the Nuremberg trial and particularly with respect to Garing's liability was the the Vancey conference.

If you accept the Nuremberg narrative, if you accept the Holocaust narrative, essentially, the Vancey conference was when the plans for Man's Homicide was drafted, was implemented. Spheres of responsibility were, were assigned and you know

executive authority was what was involved in order to in order to implement the you know the several steps that constituted the extermination of what

the Reich perceived as its racial enemies the Vancey Conference convened in January 20th 942 Hydrick Reiner Hydric organized it The Vonesty Conference happened That is not

That cannot be disputed The mythology around it has become So grotesque and grim And Massive People will be surprised to learn That the minutes of it Don't indicate much

Inculpatory or exculpatory There's just not much there but something was decided there and to the letters that Hydrick addressed to each invitee that were hand delivered to all the Vancey attendees there was attached a copied document and that document was the copy of the order that on July 30th, 1941, Garing it signed

at the request of that SS adjutant that arrived at the air ministry on behalf of Reiner Heidrich. Now, what it said in full, what that order read in full, which you've got to been drafted by Hyderick's adjutant,

it said the following, quote, amplifying the task assigned to you, meaning Hyderick, by my, meaning garing, decree of January of solving the Jewish problem as rapidly and as conveniently as possible by

immigration or evacuation, I here would instruct you to make all necessary preparations in an organizational, logistical, material context for an overall unraveling. Again, the word is lossung. If I'm mis-translating that, forgive me, of the Jewish problem within Germany's sphere of influence

in Europe, where this will impinge upon the purviews of other government departments, these are to be consulted. I further instruct you to lay before me shortly a comprehensive draft, the organizational, logistical, and material advanced preparations for curing out the desire of final solution. That word is endlessly sung of the Jewish problem. Now, what Garing said later went confronted with this document. Now, mind you too, by this point, this Gering was under indictment.

He realized he was going to go to the gallows. Okay, so you can't just rebut whatever one of the things of Garing's statement here, it can't just be said he was trying to save his skin, because he knew that was not going to happen. He said, he said, quote, I was careful not to probe too deeply into Himmler's methods. One second,

I scroll down. He said, quote, I heard for example, that a large population of Jews left for Poland during the winter and that some of them froze to death in their vehicles. I heard of these things mostly from the ranks of my employees and from the people. When I made inquiries, I was told that such things would not happen

again. It was claimed that in some cases, the trains had been misrouted. Then there was talk about death squads. What I was told was this, that there were many diseased people in these camps and that they died of epidemics. That some of these squads

had the job of taking the corpses to a crematorium where they would be cremated. Since November, official Nazi policy had been to extrude the Jewish community from Greater Germany. The idea to emerge in Berlin of settling somewhere all of Europe's Jews eventually Madagascar. Hydraig suggested adopting what he termed a geographical territorial final solution, instead of shipping the millions of Jews overland eastward out of Europe rather than overseas to marry Gascar. car and it goes on and on like that um is that sophistry i don't think so i think it's basically honest but it um i uh you will not find um you will not find more direct language in

the minutes from the von c conference if you're looking over a smoking gun um relating to ethno sectarian murder in an organized capacity you will find that in Himmler's statements to the higher SS and police leaders at Posen in October October 1943 where he openly talks about the extermination of the Jewish people

okay and I mean that makes sense in context frankly but again too that was a statement that was exclusively made to hire SS and police leaders if you're telling

if the allegation is that from uh from january 30th 1942 that there was this you know there that there's this plan um that involved everybody uh who had official portfolio within the executive branch of the party to uh to uh the carry out a regime of uh of mass homicide um i don't i don't see how that case can be made and again it um i'm not uh people misunderstand when i make this comparison but You know, like I've said, it'd be like me suggesting that, or it would have been like the authorities of in Hanoi suggesting that there was a conspiracy to exterminate the Vietnamese people, you know, based upon their race. We can look to the euphemisms used relating to the body count from incidents like Mi Lai 4, which were conducted very above board, I might add. You know, we can invoke the language from a Mac V. Saug, you know, that refers to the population in question in the most dehumanized language.

You know, and we can, you know, we can, you know, we can probe into the kind of the strategic logic as well as the political rationale, you know, of treating the Vietnamese people as standard bearers for the idea of communism and, you know, adopting a strategy of attrition wherein, you know, if enough human vessels of this idea can be exterminated, then the idea itself can, will no longer be able to be implemented. Okay, you see where I'm going with that? It's not a perfect analogy, but, you know, after the fact, you know, drawing connections where there aren't really any and, you know, in discerning conspiratorial intent where it really doesn't exist and taking kind of discrete instances of violence, however highly scaled, you know, and assigning sort of an overarching intent where it doesn't exist, at least in terms of, you know, structural orders. I mean, you can make a lot of, you can confabulate a lot of things, okay, based on based on the kinds of horrific goings

on of total war. And I guess that's the key kind of, um, issue with Herman Gehring. They really, really made a huge show, for like a better word. I'm not trying to be flippant of Garing's signature being

on this document in Hydric's possession with Hydric then disseminated to people who we want to do persuade of his authority to act with the blessing of the fear, okay? So we're not talking about it's not Gehring's character itself

that's on trial and it's not, you know, the case for quote aggressive war I think is pretty easy to rebut because that doesn't mean anything, but we're not even talking about that. the real like the guts of the indictment against Gering was that Garing was

a, Garing was essentially responsible for a campaign of ethnocectarian murder that was global and scaled based on this document that, you know, presumably he gave not just his blessing, but conveyed his knowledge and

his endorsement of the Vonsi Conference. which then you must, requires a leap of logic, is, you know, declared by the prosecution that, you know, the exclusive purpose of this conference was to, was to create a regime of mass murder. Like, the defense attorney in me wants to poke holes in that in a few different ways, but I'm just going to stick to the record, you know, rather than hyperbole, but that's essentially where he's standing with Gering. And, I mean, again, the, the thing I'm a, or the, the point. what I was trying to convey to people is that is that

is that you know I don't I don't really find that credible just because it's not really how modern governments work even ones that do horrible things if you want to go on Gehring's on statements

um Gearing was considered to be by a lot of hardline national socialists or a very oriented towards the, you know, biological racial aspect of the ideology as being unreliable. Erhard Milch, who before they fell out, was Gary's protege, he was half Jewish. This was an open secret. You know, Gary had a Jewish stepfather.

Gehring objected the Reich Research Council. There was increasingly the SD. underhydric was removing ethnic Jews from critical research projects. On July 4,92, Garing expressed anger that Jewish scientists were being subjected to this treatment. And on matters that related directly to military exigency, the fear had expressly forbid this. In Garing's words, he said, I've just briefed the fear about this. we've exploited one Jew in Vienna for two years in the field of photography

because there's things we need of the utmost valueless at this time. It would be mad as to say he'll have to go. Of course he's a great researcher. He has a fantastic brain, but he's got a Jewish wife and can't be at the university and so on. I mean, so they get that for what it's worth,

all right? If we're going to impute if we're going to impute you know, Gehring's intention to Hydric, I think you're going to have a hard time making that case based upon, you know, the character evidence that is available relating to Garing's views on race and views on the Jewish people and things like that. I'm told that to weak arguments, I don't think it is because, frankly, what's been placed

in a controversy here is, you're saying that not, if you're a proponent of the indictment, you're saying that not only did, not only did Gary and Hydrick share these opinions, but Garin basically was the source of this entire enterprise. you know, because he had superior authority, you know, in his signature, as a signatory to this document that was then attached to Vancey invitation, you know, this is essentially, you know, Hydric implementing the will of Gering, and I do not accept that. And character evidence becomes relevant if, uh, if the idea is that, you know, Garing is a quote unquote violent

anti-Semite, okay? So, I mean, if that's a weak case, again, we're not talking about a scientific postulate. You know, we're talking about a claim at law. And claims at law, generally, you know, they're not science. They're not even based on formal logic, frankly. You know, they're based on the ability to persuade,

based on totality of circumstances. So that's, um, that's, um, that's the, uh, that's the case to be made. Um, the, uh, finally what I want to say is, uh, how,

how is the Lufthava so effective of Garing was this kind of disengaged morphine-addled degenerate during the war years? Well, again, that was the Earhart-Milch. That was to Eddorff Galland, he was the general in command of a fighter element of the Lufthafa.

Hajo Herman, who pioneered who was known as Wild Boar Tactics. I mean, like Garing was it's the talent of people like mills the people like gallon of people like Hajo Herman it made was so great that

and particularly Milch because I mean he was in a command role it meant that it meant that Gary could be totally sideline and the Lufov could still perform remarkably well considering the odds but I want to draw to a close here now I thought that background was important because

when we get into the the trial, which I've already prepped for, and we'll do that next session. I didn't want to keep stopping and explaining, okay, what do I mean by the Vonsi document? Okay, what do I mean, you know, by Gering's, you know, being compromised, you know, after 1942.

That foundation was important. Even if it seems like character evidence or minutia, it's not. And you'll see what I mean when we get into the Gering trial, because the picture they paint does not really mess up with what the reality was at Gering. you know and again it's not we're not saying garing was a great guy or something or that i mean i stand by what i said garing acquitted himself tremendously you know as a man as well as

a representative of his people but uh the issue wasn't if garing was a good guy or not the issue is you know was garing uh was garing truly you know like the number two man in the third rike for all practical purposes you know was he not just leading a war effort but was he plotting you know the mass homicide of an entire ethno sectarian group and i think that's preposterous. But that's what we're going to get into on the next episode. And we're going to deal with the other defendants too, but not

as much in depth, because frankly, in the case of Gearing kind of was the make or break aspect of the indictments, if that makes sense. Because, again, he was a stand-in really for the entire executive code or he had ran off Hitler himself. And that becomes very clear.

And we will deep dive into that. in next episode, which I think it'll probably be the final episode, frankly. And I know we should definitely do a Q&A. I mean, it's your show. You're the management of programming, obviously.

But you mentioned that, I think that would be so, yeah. Let me ask you one thing. Yeah, because you mentioned Hydric a bunch in this episode. Yeah. Why don't you tell people why Hydric wasn't at Nuremberg? Hyderick was assassinated by partisans. he was the gal lighter of Bohemia Morovium, you know, in occupied

Czechoslovakia. And there's a tremendous partisan problem there. You know, like a very brutal asymmetrical war. And Hyderick was a brutal guy, frankly. So, I mean, his methods were

were very much compromising the ability of the partisans to wage their war. And these partisans were very much sustained by the United Kingdom. and um he was uh he was trai drag was traveling in an open car uh which was bombed hydrick uh the bomb detonated and uh hydric still was able to to dismount and shoot and kill his attackers but the bomb uh the wound that it had torn open on him uh some of the uh upholstery from the auto seat had gotten into the wound and he went into something

like anaphylactic shock and then died. And he was then replaced by Ernst Kaltenbrenner who was an old fighter of the Offen SS and he was a very ruthless bad dude but nothing Hitler did not make the same mistake

with Hydro's successor, okay? He definitely appointed a lesser man deliberately and Hitler famously eulogized Hydric as the quote man with the iron heart at his funeral okay and um if you want if you're a third rike nerd or if you just want to boat up on the third rike hydric is one of the understanding the main of hydric is one of the keys in understanding the third rike and like i said at some point when i when i finish steel storm when i finish

this nuremberg book i'll write some old history where right out hydric is the furor of the german rike in 1970 or something but i maintain that he would have been hitler's successor and i stand by that point he's one of the most compelling figures the 20th century in my opinion. Not because I'm a ghoul. He's just a fascinating guy. But that's what he was, and that's how he died. It was 42, not 43. I'm sorry. That he was killed. He grew up in a very, like a musical household, too. It was like a very artistic household. Yeah, and he was a champion fencer, and he was a, he was a, he flew, uh, he flew combat

missions on the, on the, on the, on the off front, uh, until Hitler grounded him because he He couldn't risk the dying in action. Just, I mean, whatever you can say about the man, just like an incredibly accomplished and dangerous person. Was he the tallest guy in the Reich? I mean, he was six or three. Yeah, Carlton Brenner was six four or six five. But yeah, he, Hydrigger Auto Scorsini,

especially for that era, Scorsini was about six three. I mean, that was really tall of that era. Like most guys then in Europe were like five, eight, five, seven. so yeah he he was an intimidating personage and um yeah definitely uh definitely a frightening guy but yeah that's um that's uh yeah we'll get into again i uh like i said it was essential to kind of dive into the uh the context the background um especially as related to the you know the vansi document and the uh the order uh the hydric order um that's why i wanted to deep dive into gearing but yeah we'll get into the actual proceeding next time and then we'll do a Q&A

whenever you want okay um give your plugs yeah we'll do thanks um you can find uh some of my long forum as well as the podcast which we drop right about every two weeks and my substack it's real thomas 7777.7.com we got a real active tgram channel it's a t.m.m.m. slash the number seven h-m-as 7777 you also find on GAB. I'm not real active there, but I back up, like, all the stuff we do, whether it's, you know,

when Pete is nice enough to record with me or, you know, when I drop a new podcast or, you know, I link to my substack, longform stuff. You can find me just at Real underscore Thomas 777 on GAB. And I'm pleased to announce that

in just a couple weeks here, we're going to drop a, uh, we got a YouTube channel. It's just, you know, Thomas TV, or in parentheses, number seven, HMAS, 777. Me and some of the fellows, you know, we're going to start uploading content, hopefully just about every day out of the YouTube channel. So if you join it now, there's nothing on there yet. But around the week of the 15th, we'll start being stuff.

So please join it and check it out. That's all I got. All right. Until the next time. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinianna Show. We're getting close to the end here. How are you doing, Thomas?

I know it very well, man. Thanks for hosting me, as always. Today, I wanted to get into the nitty-gritty of the cross-examination of Herman Gearing. That's important for a lot of reasons, not the least of which there were lesser trials, if you want to consider in those terms of military and police officials as well as, as well as, you know, as well as some junior officers. you know there was the there's the docko trials which uh despite the name they were held at daco it would have been the you know the concentration of at daco and there was not a trial of of of of the s who had manned the daco concentration camp it was a trial of first s leaps standards

who uh were were kind of the cream of the crop of vophon assess formations and uh it was it was a trial not just of the leadership, but of the rank and file, you know, the NCOs and men for the Malmody Massacre, the Battle of the Bulls. You know, while it was held at Docow owes to some very peculiar decision-making on the part of, on the part of the U.S. Army and the occupation authorities. And then there was the Ainsets Group in trial, you know, which involved a lot of gruesome testimony, you know, relating to, relating to the categorical annihilation of a civilian population's incident to, you know, the, you know, the total war in the east but i mean those those were you know the what stands out about nuremberg

is that it was the trial of the major war criminals who were the political leadership okay and herman garing was first among them because there was nobody else left i mean garing was an incredibly powerful man within the third right anyway i'm not suggesting otherwise but you know adolf hitler was long dead heinrich himler was dead um ernst calton bruner you know who succeeded Ryan or Hydric, you know, he was, he was, he was, he was tried, but he, uh, you know, he was, he was not nearly the personage, uh, that, that Hydric was in terms of his command authority or his charisma, or like a better way to characterize it. And also, I mean, his tenure was comparatively brief, okay. Um, so you didn't have, uh, you know, in terms of the political leadership,

you know, Martin Borman was dead, you know, like, there's really, there really was, there was Gearing, there was Alfred Rosenberg, you know, there was Helmar Schacht, and Shocked was, you know, he was the, he was the chairman of the Reichs Bank, but I mean, he was, he didn't, even, even, even the British, everybody stipulated except the Soviets that even within the rather punitive terms of the Nuremberg indictment, like he did not belong there. So, Gearing essentially, he was, it was, you know, he was, he was being assigned primary command responsibility for, for, the alleged crimes of the Third Reich. And Gary himself took that role very seriously. And it was, you know, Gary viewed his own role as, you know, defending the record, not just of his own conduct, but that of the entire German Reich. So there was tremendous gravity behind this, okay?

And Justice Jackson, you know, who was the chief prosecutor of the American delegation, he was really kind of an ugly guy. I mean, we didn't really get into that before. I mean, I think I mentioned that he was an odd choice, in my opinion, but it was mainly optics. You know, Roosevelt had been a real, you know, he'd rewarded a lot of these, you know, a lot of organized ethnic political blocks, you know, for supporting the New Deal. And a lot of these people found their way to the federal bench, you know, from those respective communities. Jackson was literally a small town lawyer, you know, from upstate New York originally. he seemed like a down-home, you know, kind of like white Protestant American,

and that was part of it as to why he got the nod. But he, you know, he's really kind of the guy's ineptitude for lack of a better word. I'm not just saying that to be punitive and his pettiness and kind of like his lack of a real understanding of worldly things was exposed by the way he was humiliated by Gary. And he was humiliated. I mean, this was stipulated by Francis Biddle, you know, one of the presiding judges, who also was the attorney, general of the United States, you know, and who Jackson came to, came to hate, like, truly hate in a way that was unbecoming, I mean, not just because Biddley didn't done anything to him, but it was unbecoming a man in the role of Jackson, not only as the Supreme Court justice,

but as a man representing the United States and, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, apparatus of justice, as was suggested. But, so, I mean, Gearing, you know, the, he had an outsized impact um on the proceedings and and moving forward to when there's a lot of courtroom drama too just kind of surrounding him because as is well known i mean gearing had a lot of problems you know he struggled with addiction he struggled with his weight um you know he he had problems with corruption um you know gearing admitted all this you know like even before the eleventh hour you know he was well aware of his flaws, but, you know, there was, there was multiple aspects of Gearing. He also, I mean, he'd inherited the man to the leadership of the Ribbentrop Squadron

when a man for Von Richthoff and fell in combat. You know, he stood with Hitler at the Beer Hall Pooch, and he'd been shot up and critically wounded. You know, he, he was a guy who was much beloved by his men, and basically everybody liked Gearing. You know, he was a gregarious, larger than life, and he was a guy, he was a funny guy, you know he was smart, you know, he was a man's man, you know, he was a combat veteran, he was an outdoorsman, you know, there was this idea that, you know, the National Social of Leadership

cadre, they were either these, you know, kind of grotesque, evil sort of outcast that, you know, they were people who didn't have any political savvy. I mean, there's completely the odds of reality. And also, I mean, they can't really be true. Otherwise, they would not have enjoyed this kind of meteoric rise. So, you know, Garing was a guy who was, was, was, was, was going to kind of make an impact whatever context he found himself in and um obviously that garing was well aware that he was going to be hanged okay there was no way gearing was going to be acquitted um so he had no reason to lie about anything frankly i mean is i make that point of people too like whatever garing said he realized he was being committed to this stroke of record and that's the

only reason why he was doing what he was doing you know i mean uh wild wiles what he did you know he was going to be hanged and it's not even like um and he certainly wasn't you know he's certainly wasn't doing himself any favors by the way he testified, both substantively and stylistically. I mean, in fact, he caused himself a lot of grief and physical discomfort by locking horns like he did with Jackson and with the entire tribunal. But the thing, what Garing did do, and I mean, what you could claim was a self-serving move, Gary realized that the longer the trial lasted, the greater where the prospects of the four powers falling out with each other. And that, in fact, started to happen.

So, I mean, Gary was in fact trying to stay, but, you know, Gary was a military man at base. He was a businessman. You know, he was a privateer. He was a gangster in a real sense. But at the end of the day, first and foremost, I mean, Garying was a field marshal and he was a combat pilot, okay? And he thought like a general. You know, so even despite the fact, Gary knew he wasn't going to. to get out of this alive, like he was going to treat this like, uh, like, like, you know,

like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, he was going to do everything he could to hurt the International Worker on Tribunal, as he, you know, despite the fact that he was going down to. Um, so, Gary endeavored to, to drag out the proceedings as long as he could, you know, um, and he did it very effectively. Uh, he went as far to try and persuade, uh, he gone Kubishak, or Kubishak, he was the primary, he was the lead defense counsel defending most of the, most of the executive cabinet of the Third Reich.

And Gary was constantly behooving him to subpoena more and more witnesses even on middling issues that had already been decided. You know, and even though this was not, this was not by any means a fair trial or anything approaching that, you know, the appearance of certain protocols were maintained, including, you know, a very, very, very, limited subpoena power.

And Gearing was a, he was, he was kind of, he was kind of bullying, you know, the, the defense team into, into exploiting that very little power of the utmost. It just kind of harass his enemies, as well as, you know, like I said, the longer he could drag this out, the longer Gearing stayed alive. And I wasn't born in Cowardies. Frankly, Gearing, you know, Gearing needed time to repair his defense. You know, not because I had any chance was exceeding, but again, this was. You know, this was the final act of the Third Reich and a man in an executive role of the Third Reich, you know, defending that regime in history.

And Garing had access to almost no materials. You know, it's not like Garing himself could contact witnesses. You know, he needed a lot of time, quite literally, just to think this through and organize his thoughts and, you know, give form to kind of these ideas and impulses. So that was part of it. Okay, Garing certainly was not afraid of the gallows, all right? And that began clear many times. And ultimately, Gering killed himself. So I don't think he'd be said that Garing was a physical coward.

That's ridiculous. But, you know, he very much viewed himself as having this historical mission. And he was a serious guy. I mean, again, as it becomes more and more clear, Garing did some pretty ridiculous things. And, you know, there were times where he very much acted like a buffoon in public. And, I mean, he was well aware of that. He'd make fun of himself.

But, you know, Garing proved he was anything but a clown at Nuremberg. And it began, kind of like the old Garing reemerged. what's interesting is that is the reasons why gearing was viewed as a threat by the international tribunal like in these days the kind of fixation with IQ this really began kind of in the 30s and 40s you know and so all the number of defendants were subjected to IQ tests there's a psychiatrist named Gustav Gilbert who was all kind of a strange character I mean most psychiatrists of that day especially were strange he he's kind of a Gilbert comes off as kind of the creepy, weird,

you know, quasi-Froidian psychiatrist of myth and war. Like, you'd see in, like, one of those old movies or something. And, uh, he made a big deal that, uh, that, Garing's IQ was 138. And the only, the, it was inferior only to Helmar Schacht and Arthur Seiss in court. Shocked at an IQ at 143,

Sisonquart scored at 141. Shocked, again, was, you know, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, minister, the Reichsbank, or the chairman, rather. Sison court had briefly been Prime Minister of Austria just before the Anschluss. And later, he had a high executive role in

the Reich General of Government, like under Hans Frank. And he was probably, not probably, he was the top Austria National Socialists. That's why he was in the defendant's docket. That and, you know, the Reich General of Government, which was Poland, okay,

that's what it was administrative. branded um that the theory of uh the theory of the theory of the case was very much grounded on many many events and occurrences that took place in that theory okay so that's that's why sysen court was there but at any event so they um all that aside uh they the prosecution made a big deal about gearing having this high IQ okay uh and again that speaks of kind of the sort of the sort of fixation of the time with this. You know, it's, uh, um, Gilbert claimed that Gering was an aggressive extrovert, a quote,

ruthless adventurer, a cynic and a man who can, quote, man who considered an international relations to be no more than a game of opposing self-interest in which they clever and strong, like himself, play the hero's role. The victors, uh, Gilbert quoted Gering, will always be the judges and the vanquist of defendants. And in fact, that it's true. Okay, it's interesting that Gilbert tried to this out as this kind of like sociopathic, you know, gangster sensibility.

Like, that's true. That's whatever you think about Gary and has a totally accurate assessment of international relations. You know, so it's, it tells you something about the fact that this was, this was proffered as evidence of Gearing, you know, being morally deformed or something. Like I, I mean, I mean, I hear that and I'm like, okay, that sounds accurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, where is Gearing wrong? And he's not saying, like, I'm an evil man and, you know, everything that. that the Warcraft Tribunal does as good and everything I do is bad. I mean, is that what, that kind of infantile take?

Is that, is that what he should have held? I mean, what the, in any event, Garing, uh, Gary really upset, uh, Gary really upset Gilbert, because during one of their last conversations, Gilbert had something to do them about, like, well, everything else aside, you know, like aggressive wars of imperial conquest are, are just not, you know, acceptable in the community of nations and garing said don't make me laugh you know america england and russia have all been the same thing like you of congress you making america have conquered an entire continent england controls something like one fourth of the planet you know i mean like the the reason

i'm here is because you know because my government lost and i'm okay with that but don't pretend otherwise and that also was like proffered gilbert in his report so you know it's evidence of gearing like being unwilling to accept you know like his own evil or something like it's i mean it really is that like ham-fisted and ridiculous i even uh even today you know You know, it's kind of asinine, it's kind of anti-fish, as polemics are, I, I, people would view that as cringe, I think, today. I mean, you see that, which is progress in some basic sense. But in any event, the crux of Garing's defense, which, again, this was not a normal trial. So, Garing, this was not, Gering was not, Gering was not, Gering was not available to a normal defense.

You know, he didn't have real defense counsel. You know, he had a very, you know, he had a very, you know, he had a very, he had a very, he had a very nominal representation. He didn't have a normal power to subpoena documents or witnesses. He could subpoena witnesses, but whether he was permitted to call them or not, was completely within the discretion of the tribunal, which itself was anything but impartial. You know, he had no right to access, he had no discovery rights. You know, he had no right to be furnished with the evidence uncovered by the prosecution that had a tendency to exculpate him or his co-defendants.

you know so he really he this really came down to like what garing could argue polemically like what he could recall from memory and uh you know what what what was presented in open court that garing could then kind of catalog and uh and trying to impeach you know based upon again like his own his own his own his own his own his own aptitude for polemic and his own his own memory to recall, you know, contradictory evidence that could be substantiated any number of ways. So this is profoundly limited, you know, the way that he could proceed affirmatively. But the basic core of what Gearing sought to demonstrate is that he'd been against going to war with Britain in the first place. He had tried personally to negotiate

with Halifax, as we got into, that actually is true. The air ministry specifically had good offices with their counterparts in the RAF. Garing, you know, being a pretty savvy guy about politics, you know, far more so than your average military, man. He realized that Halifax was kind of, was very much a doubter, and he was definitely not within the kind of inner circle of the focus. So, Garing consistently tried to, you know, tried to make overtures to Halifax towards, you know, some kind of a some kind of some kind of some kind of piece um the problem was uh he all and also

he he he stated that he thought the assault on the soviet union was premature like that's true too like garing garing maintained that you know Stalin was a maniac and that uh and that the soviet union was fully mobilized for war but you know garing believed was premature simply to assault you know instead of making the case in the court of world opinion, such that that was still possible, you know, and reaching out, you know, making overtures to elements within the Moscow regime that were hostile to Stalin. And they were not, they were not legion, but they did exist, okay?

And that was true, too. One of the things that caused, you know, a falling out between, it were caused Gearing to fall out of favor with the furor was, was Gearing's basic opposition to Barbarosa. That's well documented. Gearing was not making this up. The Gearing's problem was that

the, I mean, aside from obviously the fact that, you know, there was no chance of Gearing winning an acquittal in the in the Norberg court because it was tailored for that not to be permitted to happen. But the scope and scale of always being alleged

in terms of atrocities and the claim of a tribunal as to what, as to the structure of the national socialist government. They were basically suggesting that Gearing, because for a time at least, you know, he was the designated successor to Adolf Hitler, you know, and this was in Hitler's last Will and Testament, a codizal to it, and we got into that in the previous episodes.

So according to the, according to the Four Corners, the indictment, the Third Reich was essentially nothing more than a conspiracy to commit mass homicide on a global scale. This was decided from the top down. You know, the executive had an outsized role, authoritative role within this conspiracy, and Garing was the number two man in the executive branch of that government.

Okay, so no matter what Garing could present in mitigation, it would be dwarfed by what was being alleged. Like, whether those were credible allegations or not, again, don't really, matter because the parameters of what was permitted to be introduced in evidence were the exclusive dominion of the prosecution. You know, and they could kind of mold perception however they wanted within that paradigm. The way Gearing addressed this, he addressed it rather head on, Gearing acknowledged that, yes,

he was aware that, you know, atrocities were underway. But he said a lot of these stories and a lot of these allegations were so grotesque and so outlandish that you know he he he dismissed them as fantastic and not possible you know all he was was was events uh acts no missions that were in within his own direct purview and he had not ordered any such things that was true um you know he made the point that you know what was being transmitted over international newswires was coming from the office of war information in america which you know obviously was not some objective uh source of information or is coming out of the Soviet Union, you know, which, among other things, was blaming the, you know, the Third Reich

for its own atrocities, and we'll get into that in a little while. Or it's coming from the UK, and the UK, in some ways, had an even more censorious and kind of controlled wartime media apparatus and the United States or the Soviet Union, you know, so the fact, you know, Gary said, you know, you know, dispatch is coming across his desk, you know, that, you know, tens of thousands of people were being murdered by the SS and Belarus, you know, why would you believe that? And that's actually credible. And it's also, too, and I made the point of people before that, I mean, aside from whether you think Gary's guilty or not, or if you go out to Third Reich, this idea that there's

some kind of perfect situational and informational awareness in various departments and modern regimes that doesn't really make a lot of sense. That'd be kind of like saying that, like, George W. Bush was ordering Abu Ghraib to happen, and day-to-day, he was aware of what was going on there. Like, don't be wrong. He still was responsible because he was the head. the state, but this idea that there's some sort of awareness, you know, among all ranks and levels of authority and across departments and across jurisdictions, that's not how things

work, you know, just, I mean, I mean, there's no desire for that kind of open awareness to be perfected, but even if there were, it's not really possible, you know, so this doesn't really make a lot of sense. This idea of garing kind of looking over reports of war crimes down to the company level and, like, nodding his hidden agreement. And, I mean, that's not how things work okay um and finally uh you know and i think uh too and i don't want to get too far into this um not just because i don't speak in the sensorious tendencies i don't i don't upset uh the algorithms uh in the present platform but also um i don't want to go too far a field not because i'm afraid to talk about this but it's a topic for another um another um session

Gary, I believe, was speaking of Katien specifically, which now has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, you know, was a, was, you know, there was a Soviet war crime that was blamed on the Germans. And Bobby Yard, I don't want to get into my own opinion on that, but there's, some people will believe that the Soviets perpetuated that particular atrocity. I've got my own opinion on that but I do not I do not accept what is alleged by court history okay and the I think these days anymore

people should treat such allegations to the critical lie it's not just me you know making statements one of my partisan sympathies it's you know again there's there's there's

there's myriad cases of of uh of Soviet war crimes being quite literally late at the feet of the third Reich and uh that's that that that that that compromise is the entirety of of uh of the entire nuremberg indictment in my opinion okay everything else aside um the fact that it it you know it was offensive the due process and substantial justice notwithstanding

just uh the the evidence cannot be relied upon even on its own terms um now i mentioned dr gustav gilbert a moment ago and his peculiar uh ideas about you know the human mind and behavior um why was gustav gilbert fronting Nuremberg. Well, a couple of reasons. Like I said, you know, there was this fixation with IQ and, you know, kind of psychology as a new science. But also, Gilbert was, he was supposed to develop ways based on his purported expertise and knowledge of the defendants. He was supposed to, he was supposed to report the prosecution ways to break these men down, you know, through various tactics that would be considered to be dirty tricks and psychological warfare for like a better way to, characterize it. Gilbert determined that the way to demoralize Gering, he decided Garing was a man who cared very much about his reputation, which was true. And it

was very social individual, which is true. Garing was a natural extrovert. So Gilbert recommended that Garing be isolated as much as possible from his co-defendants. I mean, he was already isolated in his cell most of the time, but at during meals, Gilbert

recommended that Garing be not be permitted to socialize with the other defendants. So he was detached from the other defendants at their midday lunch tables. Which seems incredibly punitive and petty. But I mean, this is the kind of thing they were doing. You know, the and of course, I mean, the defense,

they had no say in this. And like, even if they were permitted to raise formal objections, it would not have been abided nor even considered. And this was on top of, you know, Jackson, as I indicated before, Justice Jackson, it was the chief prosecutor, the American delegation. He was a very nasty, petty guy, and that will become clearer, not just based on his treatment of the defendants and his disposition at trial, but, you know, the kind of him

and his son who accompanied him to Nuremberg, you know, just, just vindictive, kind of the, you know, kind of all the, all the kind of trashy, vindictive tendencies of, of lower middle class types were kind of elevated beyond their station. You know, there, I mean, I don't think that way, except I'm not a snob, nor am I an aristocrat, but that kind of, that kind of cliche of people like that being, you know, uh, singly obsessed with status and, and developing real grievances against those who they believe have, you know, kind of outshined them in that regard. All right, that was Jackson with T, you know. Aside from that, um, he'd, uh, he'd done everything he could to kind of demoralize, injure and terrorize the defendants, particularly

Garing. You know, Garing went into prison, or went into pretrial detention at 264 pounds, and he was an overweight guy. By the time he took the stand, he weighed 186 pounds. You know, it was a, and he was a big man, okay? I mean, this was a starvation diet he was on, in addition to everything else, in addition to the Spartan and, uh, needlessy, painful, conditions of confinement. It, uh, but, uh, on, uh, on, uh, on uh you know but it it it had the opposite effect when in the yield gearing you know like we talked about gearing took it apart of so he developed this kind of like monastic focus on on acquitting the the third reich at trial or at least committing to the historical to the historical record

the best epilogia that could be mustered and um it uh one of the things on march 6th 96. One of the ideas that the prosecution had was that, you know, as we've talked about Earhart and Milch, you know, who was, you know, the brilliant field marshal, the hero of Narvik, the man who replaced Ernst Udette and, you know, began really kind of fixing the lufa and despite all expectations, reconstituted it into a deadly fighter force as late as 94 and 44, you know, and Milch was just a brilliant guy, you know, he was, he was the CEO and founder of Lufthansa, but he didn't Gearing had a terrible falling out. So, Milch was being, Milch was incarcerated in the United Kingdom as a prisoner of war. He was brought to Nuremberg because the idea was that

the idea was that Milch could be convinced, you know, to proffer evidence against Gearing. And not only did Mills refuse to do it. um he ended up testifying you know in in glowing terms about the character at garing you know and talking about what a hero he was and that this utterly enraged jackson who then proceeded to you know have have uh at milch uh sent to a punishment cell for literally months on end but uh as uh an indicator of things to come on march 6th when uh when uh when milch was uh was shuttled to nuremberg you know upon arrival he passed Gearing in the hall and he saluted him, which was against regulation. So, I mean, he was, he was punished for that too.

But, you know, it's, uh, that, Milch was an amazing guy. And he was an unusual guy, too, because if you look at pictures of Milch, he looks smart, but he's kind of short, he's a short, like, pudgy guy, you know, like, he doesn't, he doesn't look like this kind of hard field marshal and this aviation genius. That's what he was. Like, Mills was actually a personal hero of mine.

I think maybe that comes out in the way to discuss him, but he, you know, he, uh, he, he, uh, he, he, He showed, too, that, you know, the kind of difference in, you know, this U.S. military tribunal, I mean, yeah, these guys were pogues because they were judge abing in general types, or there were civilian lawyers, you know, who had taken on the guys of military authority. but these guys were familiar with got a military convention you know like there was no way no matter what ever heard mills thought of gearing personally there was no way he was going to sell out his old commander

and a German fellow German field marshal you know in order to just you know kind of stick it to him you know by by way of uh by way of you know helping uh helping the Americans and the Soviets and the British gang him like no no military man with any honor would do that so the

you know even if even if even if Mills wasn't a particularly good guy I can't see him doing that like the idea that Jackson and company thought that you know oh well Mills doesn't like Gary there's no doubt he'll you know do him dirty that says that tells you a lot about the character of Jackson in my opinion you know because that's just not

I wonder about a man who thinks that that's you know kind of a good option of first recourse you know when when you're pressured to when you're pressured to you know sandbag somebody you don't happen to like I mean I did I just found that really interesting you know um but the

the uh the uh Jackson's basic attack, I mean, as we'll get into, Jackson's, Jackson was handily embarrassed by Gearing. I mean, everybody acknowledged that, okay? That's not just revisionist, you know, propaganda or something. But on March 8th, basically Jackson went on the attack against Gearing by attacking his witnesses, first and foremost. Jackson, or Garing called very few witnesses, not just because the pool wasn't particularly large, a man he would have wanted to call, but also he was limited in who he could call.

But Garing's the Luftwaffe Bureau Chief, General Carl Bowden Schatz. He was one of these, kind of like Yodel, Alfred Yodel, another general. Some of these guys kind of had a deer in headlights reaction. to being on the stand. They were like, they were just outclassed. They weren't accustomed to be an attack like that, even if they were physically brave guys. We'd been in combat and stuff.

You know, they, they didn't, you know, Jackson wasn't a dummy. However, hand, you know, whatever his shortcomings, no however handily, he was embarrassed by Gearing. You know, Bowdoin shots was one of these types. He was kind of, you know, he was kind of, he really kind of fell apart. garing however when dr gilbert asked him like what do you think about you know jackson treated boden shots uh garing apparently laughed and just said like you know wait wait until he tries that on me you know it

um but uh the real crew what was kind of an indicator of things that come was when milch mills was brought up immediately after boden shots and uh he uh not only do you speak up very brave in defense of garing you know Saying in no uncertain terms, you know, he said whatever, you know, whatever, whatever Garing's personal shortcomings, and there were many, he was no coward, he was not a criminal. And for the record, you know, when, when Jackson asked him, well, Mr. Mill, you know, because he refused to call him by rank, well, you know, Herr Mills, what do you, what do you think about the civilian bombings? What do you think about the bombings of civilian centers, you know? And Melts is like, well, I got a lot to say about that, you know, because I witnessed it at a place. is like Dresden and Berlin and Leipzig and other places, you know, and I witnessed your, I witnessed your aircraft doing it, you know, and, uh, Jackson immediately cut off that

line in questioning, realizing what he'd done to himself. But I mean, this is another example of, like, Jackson not being really familiar with the record. You know, despite the claim that, like, the Germans were these brutes who, you know, leveled Rotterdam in London, you know, the Allies killed more people with area bombing in France that they were supposedly liberating than the Germans killed in, you know, in the entirety of the Battle of Britain. Like, was no capability for germans to area bomb entire target areas you know they didn't even have a four-engine bomber until late in the war when it was fielded it was basically useless and the thing had only been developed you know essentially to reach uh industrial targets east of

the urals so in this idea it's like it's like it's like jackson had read a bunch of uh he'd read a bunch of like new dealer copy you know a bunch of kind of crazy stuff put out by the focus about out, you know, you know, the epitome of evil is that off Hitler and, like, not bothered to really peruse the record. You know, I mean, raising strategic bombing, you know, a few of, you know, like a year after the destruction of Dresden, you know, to try and, you know, cast Germany the blackest laid, dumb, dumb move, okay? And that kind of came to characterize the, you know, he could have brought up Japan. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. It's like, okay, well, you're the guys who just waged nuclear war on Japan, you know, when you killed 150,000 people in minutes.

I mean, yeah. So it's, I mean, any guy, any guy with a rudimentary familiarity, like, and this was talked about later by Hap Arnold. He's like, what the hell was he thinking? Like, of all, of all things could bring up the era hard mills to cast, you know, the national social regime and a poor light, why would you bring that out? You know, I mean, it's, it's, uh, so that was kind of a first indication of, of, of, um, of, uh, you know, things that come.

one of the, Jackson really, this was really distasteful, in my opinion, and I've read, I'll get into this in more detail, but the recording of, there's a really, there's a false record of Nuremberg in terms of the transcript, because it's been totally redacted and anything, anything that makes the prosecution look bad has been cut out. The only, the original wire recording, which was then later, which was then later put on a series of records, which I mean, now you can find anywhere. I mean, that's the only actual recording, the transcript is garbage and like what most people saw it was garbage and stuff like this exchange between milts and jackson which is totally redacted you know which is fascinating so i mean what i'm getting is that people and let other than the people who were listening to listening to it live and not all the testimony was live um like people didn't even have any idea what was being testified to it in nuremberg until you know decades later most of them okay but when jackson cross-examine milch like his big focus um and robert kempner you know who was formerly uh you know, formerly had been in the employee of the air ministry. We talked about him last episode. He slipped a note to Jackson reading that, you know, oh, Milch is actually a Jew, which seems incredibly distasteful, especially you can consider, like,

you know, the, uh, what, what, what, what the Nuremberg authorities were alleging. But, uh, you know, I mean, and as we talked about, like, um, um, um, Milch's father was Jewish and, uh, he had a, there's a very strange story around that and like what some of,

milch's friends alleged because milch was largely raised by an uncle in part and there was there was claims that you know like his mother and like uh his uncle had an affair and like he was milch's real father and things like this but uh um jackson uh jackson said quote you know you know didn't garing make you a full area in spite of your jewish father and uh milt said you know garing's not capable of making me anything i'm not going to answer that question you know and basically I'm disgusted by it. And then, and then, Melissa started refusing to answer questions. He just sat there silently because it's like, what were they going to do?

Like, find him in contempt. He was already sitting in a punishment cell. You know, I mean, but Jay Exxner would not let it go. You know, questions like that are amazing to me because remember the, who put out the, the rumor that Hitler's mom slept with a Rothschild? It wasn't that, like, early, like, OSS kind of rumor or something like that? Yeah, yeah. I can't tell you the original source of it.

So why would that be a problem? Well, it's also, I don't understand what Jackson was getting at. When you're trying to say that, like, hey, you're a Jew, you're an evil man, look this regime you served. But again, it's like, okay, if Milch was a Jew and people knew that, and it wasn't a problem, like, doesn't that kind of cut against the theory that, well, the Third Reich was this this massively homicidal, anti-Semitic conspiracy? Like, I don't even get why that, I mean, it's not even clear to me from the record.

I've seen the actual record, you know, as it's transatlantic. from like the wire recording he just goes on and on and it's not even clear to me it's like is he trying to paint notes as a liar is he trying to make garing look like a man who'll do anything for his friends and doesn't care about what the you know what the law the land is which then was you know that you know jews couldn't serve in these capacity like it's not even clear why this is contentious you know or is it just like it just seems distasteful and uh yeah and i I mean, it's, you know, Miltz absolutely conducted himself. I mean, whether it's true or not, I mean, that that's not, you don't dignify a question like that with an answer.

And any real courtroom, such a question wouldn't be permitted anyway, you know, because, like, what's the relevancy of it? You know, it, you know, you don't, you don't, you don't, you don't ask people about their parentage in that kind of punitive way, no matter what the context. And it's just no class, you know, but it, you know, like I said, this is when Jackson, really really began to come apart and uh again too this entire exchange about uh about about about um milch's parentage was uh it was redacted from the published transcript you know it uh i mean for obvious in that case for obvious reasons but the uh what was the what was the initially published official transcript was downright deceitful um you know it uh it was uh the true record was uh was the why recording, which was then processed

on at like thousands, literally like 2,000, like records. You know, like wax records. Final. And, um, but the, uh, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, manuscript, which was the only record available, uh, you know, um, to, to the public as well,

as well as to the judges in, uh, in reviewing, um, the evidence presented, uh, that, that was, it was erratic. It was erratic. erroneous. It was incomplete. And it was, it was, it was, it was, it was actively doctored in cases where, you know, the prosecution looked bad, you know, like in Jackson's entire line of questioning a militia over his parentage or, you know, when instances were gearing straight out embarrassed, you know, the prosecution or the prosecution was caught in lies, you know, this, there's another instance where one of the assistant

prosecutors, the British delegation actually was top notch in objective terms. I mean, obviously I don't, I don't have any sympathy for their politics, but they, they were, they were, they were guys who were up to the task, unlike Jackson, who was a slob, but, uh, G.E. Roberts was, you know, one of the assistant, uh, was one of the assistant prosecutors is the British delegation, you know, he put his foot in his mouth. He, uh, you know, like we told him, Mitch was the hero of the battle in Narvik. And, uh, he has something that's kind of cool and cocky tone. He has milk. It's like, you're, of course, aware that, you know, Norway's neutrality was violated. And Mel said, yeah, that's right. And to our knowledge and our review was violated twice, which was a reference to Churchill's attempt to invade Norway before the Germans got there, you know, which was aborted because, you know, essentially like the Luf and the Vermach like beat them to the target area. You know, something that's like this is another example of, and like I said, against the British delegation, it was actually pretty rare. They were pretty well schooled on a military matter.

is not on the record, but they, like, the examples of these guys on the, on the prosecution team, um, just being kind of ignorant of what actually transpired in the war years and like what not to address, who has not to kind of, you know, score an own goal. It's really kind of remarkable. Um, the, uh, um, it, uh, in one instance, Jackson threatened the militant open court um it uh you know uh and that that was redacted too it was uh um trying to intimidate or frighten mills presumably i don't know where jacks were this either i think it was i think he was trying to suggest that he was going to he was going to catch milts in a perjurious statement he said do you know that spear turned the united turned over the united states like all of his all the papers

his possession his personal papers his list the minutes of uh of what jacks called the central planning committee, which I don't know what he's referring to. I don't know if he's referring to the, you know, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, and then they're used of slave labor. I don't know. It's not clear to me, because there was no German, quote, central planning committee. But Milts's response was that's a matter of indifference to me. And Jackson said, said something like, you know, yeah, well, you know what, like, in a little while, like, everything's going to be indifferent to you, meaning, like, I'm going to have you hanged. the uh in context i mean mills wasn't hanged thankfully but it but i mean the just like stuff like

that like what what what prosecutor let alone the supreme court justice and a guy representing the united states of america is is is like dropping like tough guy threats on on witnesses i mean that's that's that's real that's real that's real that's real that's real that's real nickel-dine bullshit you know i mean it's not even i'd find that i'd find that distasteful from a county prosecutor you know like i mean so it's you know stuff like that it's once you Once you deep dive into this, the kind of crudeness of it really kind of jump, at least to me, kind of jumps out. The final kind of, the military's final kind of coup on the stand was he, for purposes of foundation, you know, he was asked if he was currently a prisoner at war of the United States of America.

and milch said no he was uh you know he said i'm a i'm a prisoner of war of the united kingdom that subsequently declared an intern an internee by the american violation of international law um and uh when challenged on some point uh of about a date that he was asked about um he uh milts said forgive me you know i've been i was severely beaten about the head when i was captured by Brigadier Derek Mills Roberts, which is actually true. Roberts seized

Milton's field marshal baton from his personal effects and started whacking him over the head for no apparent reason. I mean, I don't, like, there's a lot of that kind of pettiness. I mean, I don't understand it's someone on the Soviet side, even if it was, you know, very much conduct on becoming, but it's like,

why, I never understood this kind of Anglo-American, like where these guys were mustering this kind of rage from at these german officers like it's it's it's i mean it's not the way you treat people anyway even if they are you know deserving of it because that's not that's not for any general officer to decide um you know and even even even even if people you know are going to the gallows properly you know we hang them we don't we don't whack them over the head with blunt objects but it uh that um you know it was kind of clear i mean first of milch wasn't a liar and i mean like i said it was

it was it was it was it was clear that he wasn't lying about this and that kind of you know It was just kind of the final, you know, it was kind of a very much a precursor to like Gearing's treatment of Jackson, you know, because Milp Mills handled the guy, he treated him, you know, very, very handily, despite, despite the fact that, you know, like Gearing, he'd been in, I mean, Mills, I suspect that he was treated better at that point than Gearing, but, I mean, subsequently, he was returned to a punishment cell, you know, owing the, the fact. they didn't perform as ordered by the International War Crimes Tribunal, but regardless of the severity of his, the relative severity of his treatment vis-à-vis gearing, you know, Milch was not being treated well, and he was not in great health anyway.

So it's not, you know, considering he was not nearly at his best, I think it's pretty admirable. He quoted himself so well. The, um, um, for, uh,

for, um, for context um it uh specifically milch was shuttled uh immediately after his testimony to the the punishment bunker at dakau concentration camp um which was in use by the americans at that point as i talked about that's quite literally where the uh the trial of uh the melmody trial of the men of uh first s s was held um and he was thrown into this one man punishment cell but uh with four other uh with four of the detainees but they they were uh they were carl brant uh you know the doctor he'd been the he'd presided over much of the t four program that's why he was kind infamous uh general van falconhausen general event falcon horsed and feld marshal hugo schirl was the kind of short fat guy the lewufa general who's uh cougal blitz i think was his nickname you know like lightning ball like he uh he uh and he had he had the mom Like you look like so you look like trade for Hogan's heroes or something, but he was a but he knew his stuff as an as an air commander, but uh, um, but point being, uh, it, uh, these were, these were inhuman conditions and they were treated literally like cattle. And interestingly, these detainees, these particular detainees, um, melts and the four others, uh, they were languished there for months. And when the Red Cross began an investigation, they were immediately released and put in proper one man cells and cleaned up and everything else. So,

That tells us something. But at Jackson, later in his memoirs, he made the point that in a moment of, I guess, clarity as well as levity, he said that the press had been casting, they'd been playing up garing as some kind of buffoon. And that's one of the reasons Jackson didn't take him seriously. But he was in reality unbelievably tough and sophisticated and just worldly. And, you know, that's, I mean, this is Jackson, kind of coping with why he, Gearing had so much gotten the better of him. But I, but that is in fact true.

Like the press head, part of this was, I think in some ways Americans, and well, I think the British don't really understand kind of continental personalities like then is now. But it's, you know, the side of the deliberately kind of punitive casting of Gearing, I don't think, they didn't really get him. You know, and I kind of do, I think, not just because I'm, you know, I'm sympathetic. the regime in question more than some historical writers but you know if you can kind of insinuate yourself into the culture of like interwar germany like garing's you know uh people people would like garing in the way some people kind of like Donald trump okay like garing is a far more impressive smart accomplished guy than trump but it's there's like there's a there's a gangster's charisma that like regular people can relate to but we added to that too though is garing

that you know was a warrior hero and had like an aristocratic pedigree you know he was the kind of guy you'd want to hang out with but that you also like admire as like you know a natural leader okay that's um i don't know why this was lost on people of in in those days but apparently it was um it uh garing's own statements uh what he told his own uh nominal defense counsel um you know they admiged him not to antagonize the court uh garings said i'd rather die like a lion than frisk you know meaning run like a rabbit, you know, he told his own, he told them he had no doubt that he was going to go with the gallows, you know, he, he was okay with that. I mean, it didn't matter if he wasn't or not. That was what was going to happen. So, but the, you know, there was huge

anticipation for Gary to dig the stand, again, because he was, you know, he was, he was, he was the highest command authority who was still alive. And, uh, on March 13th, when Gary took the stand, his initial testimony was broadcast live around the world and in POW camps in Britain in Europe and America and Yakin Piper who was in one such POW camp attested this too the German detainees

poured out in the open so they could hear you know they'd hear Gehring's testimony on the loudspeakers and you know they said that everyone was just enthralled by it and they said that it was like you know Germany was winning again because you know garing was was was was showing no fear and he was you know he was he was he was taking the flight to the american um prosecutors you know which is fascinating that was uh you know everybody from everybody from uh you know kind of well known and famous and infamous

person that just like piper you know to god just like ordinary like you know kind of german lanzers you know like teenage kids who been captured um were uh like relayed the same thing that like you know you it gave us like this huge confidence boost, you know, when we heard Gering again, you know, and Garing was the man, basically. I think that's fascinating. It, so Garing, uh, Garing, uh, Garing's kind of finest hour was, uh, March 18th, um, you know, his, uh, his, uh, that, that was, his, what could be considered Garing's affirmative defense. I mean, presented by himself, obviously, began on that date.

You know, he showed up to court. Obviously, he was wearing, you know, he was wearing the poorly-sized prison uniforms and all the defendants had. But, you know, Gary was always clean-shaven. His hair was slick back. You know, Garing was off, Garing was no longer undone, because, like, he had to kick morphine in prison, which had to be horrible, okay? And Gering was in constant pain, going to his injuries.

But if you look at the footage, you know, Garing looks lean and mean. and like I said, I'm most monastic, you know, and just entirely focused. Gary also spoke very good English, and he understood English perfectly, but he, I mean, obviously, he gave him a tactical advantage, and, I mean, he had something at a heavy accent, but you could, you could understand him easily, so that just gave him an edge. I mean, not just in intimidating the prosecution, but, you know, it meant that the, it meant that two out of the three judges could understand him without translation, you know, or two out of the four, uh, uh, uh, panel judges, you know, could, could, could just understand

him, uh, you know, with, uh, with a natural ear. But, um, it, uh, you know, basically immediately when, uh, when, when, uh, when Jackson's cross-examine, uh, began, cross-examination began, like, Gary and kind of came to dominate the proceedings. What really threw Jackson off was, uh, you know, Jackson's sweeping charges, like what Jackson thought was kind of like his Trump card was coming out and saying, like, you know, you, you know, you and you and, you know, you and, you know, the murderer urged Rom and, you know,

you all, you conspired against the Democratic Vimar Republic, you know, and Garing said, you know, yeah, I'm proud to have done so because the Vimar Republic was an abomination, you know, and it was a contrivance and, you know, it's, you know, Germany had been crushed under a starvation blockade, you know, by UPS. people, you know, uh, we, we recosited ourselves, you know, we stood up like men, you know, and we, uh, we swept away this, this, this, this artifice that, uh, you know, was, uh, was,

was, uh, was nothing more than window dressing and would amount to do, you know, uh, a regime of tyranny from without, you know, um, now, when, every time Gary would go into these kinds of discourses, like Jacks would interrupt him and object. And he, he'd, he'd admonish the judges to, you know, to, you know, to, to, you know, to, to, you know, to define garing in contempt. And they wouldn't do it because, you know, frankly, see, here's the problem with Jackson. Jackson literally was a small town lawyer. He was some guy who was used to, you know, the judge, the presiding judge and the court

working literally hand in glove with the prosecution. And any time some defendant got the best of him, you know, they'd be shouted down with the crash of a gavel and Jackson could like hitch his pants up and then proceed, you know, kind of moving for the kill. Their national opinion wasn't going to let him do that. and garing whatever you feel about garing or whatever you feel about you know the third rike this was a man on trial for his life you know there's something unseemly about unless a man truly is just you know kind of making a crude mockery of proceedings uh you give a man who's on trial for his life the benefit of the doubt you know in order to i mean these these these are going to be his last words on this planet and finally too uh um lord justice lawrence uh what he commented later He said, frankly, I wanted to hear what Garing had to say. You know, he's like, you know, and Lawrence was as anti-fascist as they come.

But he's like, I was curious to how this man was going to try and acquit himself. You know, if nothing else, you know, history kind of demands it. So this idea in Jackson's mind that Garing should just been shut up immediately and he should, you know, be kind of just kind of availed of this kind of punitive scolding. And it's not really what Garing was there for, you know. I mean, and it's the fact that the fact that Jackson wasn't really up to the chance. challenge i mean that says a lot more about him than anything else and you know like i said like the british ultimately gearing was kind of such that he was cornered um it was by the british prosecutorial

delegation which is very interesting to me and which makes sense um people say a lot of things about englishmen but a proper a proper a proper english barrister who knows his job uh he's he's he's very tough to uh to get the better of um i speak from experience and yeah and Lawrence actually admonished Jackson in an open court you know

saying the tribunal literally quote the tribunal feels that the witness being garing should be allowed to make whatever explanation he cares to make

an answer to this or any other question you know you're not in other words you know it doesn't mean smack down the tribunal was saying look

you're not in upstate New York anymore you know I'm not going to crash the gavel down and demand you know garing like you know respond in one word answers

it's not what we're it's not what we're doing here um Jackson got tripped up again March 19th uh 1946 second day of second full day of cross examination of

Gearing um it uh a big part of Jackson's case obviously in my opinion believing that uh this would kind of inflame public opinion against Gearing

it was founded on a German documents which it dealt with with, you know, the issue with local townspeople lynching allied airmen who, allied airmen who'd parachuted into their hands after being shot down. Insofar as these airmen had been involved in terror bombing and machine gunning and strafing civilians and passenger trains. You know, Gary listened as Jackson kind of harassed him at length about this.

And then, you know, finally, all Gary said in rebuttal was, you know, did allied plays not strafe to helpless civilians and did they not terror bomb German cities? You know, and Jackson had nothing to say, you know? I mean, it's, um, the, uh, the, uh, at results, some of this was kind of, I mean, this even came through without the benefit of, uh, of visual media. You know, Garing was, Garing, um, you know,

obviously the prosecution was hoping he'd be diminished by his treatment. And Garing still came off as kind of like this swaggering, aristocratic, you know, devil-maycare fighter pilot and gangsterish dude, you know, and Jackson really kind of came off like a country bumpkin or like a rube, you know, or like some kind of like half-ass cop. You know, like I said, that really, regardless of your sim of these, that really comes out. And that was duplicated very much between prosecutor Burton Ellis and Yakum Piper. And there's a fat in the Doggo, there's a fascinating video in the Doggo Trials. Piper spoke perfect English, but he demanded a, he demanded a translator, which he had the right to, which was smart, because it allowed him more time to think about the question, because it was repeated in German. And Burton Ellis was this kind of crude, redneckish, like, dumpy guy, you know, who always had kind of a dishevelled-looking uniform. Piper, even in prison blues, he was like this dashing guy.

He looks like a matinee idol. And the girl, it was like this kind of, this kind of pretty frowline translator. You can tell him she was, like, swooning over Piper. Like, as you translate. Like, it's testimony. And then there's, like, Bert Nell's getting, like, matter and matter. Like, looking more and more dumpy and kind of, like, disheveled.

Like, as, like, Piper looks like more and more kind of cool. Like, I don't know. But it, you know, it was, like, this similar kind of thing played out. Like, I, you know, in optics matter. Like, frankly, I mean, I realized politics was politics. But, like, Jackson is just not the man Roosevelt should have sent, or Truman should have sent for the, for the job. And it's interesting if Roosevelt would have had Roosevelt lips.

Obviously, you know, Jackson owed as a sentencing to Roosevelt's patronage, but Roosevelt, uh, Roosevelt had a, uh, had a keener sense for some things than Truman did. So, I mean, that's an interesting question of history, at least to me. But, um, the final, uh, kind of the final slap, this, this, this particular incident set a series of events in motion that I will get into, but Jackson trying to salvage something from this cross-examination, which was rapidly, you know, becoming a disaster,

a humiliating disaster. He held up these documents that supposedly were proof of the, you know, of the third act planning and remiliteration of the Rhinelan one year before the event occurred, you know, in violation of international law. And,

stenciled on the document was top secret, or eyes only. Okay? So Jack's got on point of saying, you see you see you know this is this was part of the secret you know dealings of the nazi government you know so um garing nodded you know a couple times he said yeah and he said i can't recall overseeing the secret plans the u.s joint sheets of staff openly published in the pre-warriors mr jackson and the courts just started laughing okay and jackson literally pulled off his headphones threw him on the ground and uh you know very petently like stormed up to the bench to demand that the

you know the judges called witnesses the order um you know saying like you know i demand you admonage garing you know he's he's required to answer my questions and not deliver not deliver you know irrelevant speeches or propagandize you know for the regime you know and uh and lawrence again judge lawrence ruled that garing was an order you know but jackson in true you know jacks means his own worst enemy he's refused to let it drop you know uh and he started trying and jackson trying to lecture the court, which really kind of alienated them. And then later, that's when he, that's when, that's when Jackson decided, which I think was really kind of a paranoiax delusion, that Francis Biddle, who was the U.S. Attorney General

and was like, you know, the chief U.S. judge on the American delegation, he decided that Biddle was trying to sabotage him and just trying to make him look stupid by somehow like allowing Garing leeway to, you know, embarrass him, which I don't, I don't see how you can make the case that Francis Biddle had some love for Herman Garing, okay? I mean, that, that's retarded. But it, but aside from that, that, you know, Jackson, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was getting Jackson looked stupid, and himself that made Jackson look stupid. It was, it was not Francis Biddle. And Jackson, Jackson's son wrote this obnoxious letter, um, the some of, some of shared colleagues in Washington saying that, you know, Francis Biddle is just jealous of my father.

You know, he's just to quote, pissant who's, you know, who's always jealous of my father's bigger office and bigger car and bigger career. Now, Francis Biddle, he was descended from the seventh governor of Virginia. He was related to James Madison. His family had founded the University of Pennsylvania Law School. He was the Attorney General of the United States. I can assure you that he didn't give a wit, like what kind of car, you know, Judge Jackson, drove or like how he decorated his office this is like total like striver clout chasing you know it's like first of all i don't think biddle cared one way the other about jackson i think he was just trying to you know i think he was he was treating garing like he would another defendant any other defendant

to his credit um but even if he did he did hate uh even if he did hate jackson for some unknown reason like people like the jacks don't get that like biddle was american royalty now that doesn't make him a great guy or mean he's somebody we should revere but people like that don't care about the same things people like Judge Jackson do. They don't care about keeping up with the Joneses. I just think that that's really demonstrative of this kind of small-minded mentality of striverism that, like,

you know, is so characteristic of these guys who got elevated, you know, in the New Deal. But that's just kind of an aside. But I think it's relevant, at least obliquely, to kind of demonstrate a certain tendency of character. Jackson, as far as the scrap, the cross-examation,

and gearing altogether, And, and just, you know, essentially, like, essentially just, you know, abandon any pretence at trial at all. And the British delegation was horrified and said, you know, look, if you were to do that, like, that'd be viewed as like a, you know, an unconditional victory from Gearing. Okay, if your ideas, you're trying to, like, you know, shut down Gering's, you know, an embarrassment of the court or of yourself. You know, I mean, it's like, if you want, he's like, if you're worried about, like, you know, some kind of, some kind of reconstituted prestige for the, for the German Reich. He's like, well, that's exactly what would confer it, you know, at, um, but this was, uh, this was, uh, interestingly, Sir David Maxwell Frye, who was a chief British prosecutor and a really, I'm a really, really serious guy. Um, you know, he, he took up the cross-examination. He took up the cross-examination to Gary. after, you know, Jackson was, you know, kind of soundly defeated by any, even by the most charitable analysis, you know, everybody can see that.

And, uh, Fife, uh, Dave Maxwell Fife, I'm sorry, I think I said Fri. Fife, uh, really, uh, Garing, it began with Garing and quitting himself rather well, um, The Fife asked him straight up, you know, if Garing was still loyal to Ed Off Hitler, despite, you know, the atrocities that had come to light. And Gering paused, hesitated, and then he gave a kind of splendidly garing answer. He said he believed in remaining loyal in times of hardship as well as in times of prosperity and peace. And he added that in all probability, you know, Hitler had not known much more about these atrocities than himself. um it uh and that really kind of uh that opened the door i i don't want to give into the nuances for like why this was permitted is under the rules of evidence the convention except the rules

of evidence is that some particularly um particularly visual aids you know are not just are not just permitted in an absolute capacity and uh despite the fact that you know due processes were not observed in a normal evidentiary standards and rules observed at Nuremberg. Some convention was observed, and Garing's answers to these questions allowed Fife to introduce some very gruesome displays and allowed him to really, I mean, Garing got rooked, okay, is what I'm getting at. And I'm not going to bore the listeners as to how that works in terms of the mechanism of the laws of evidence. But that it tells you everything you need to know that Fife replaced Jackson in the cross-examination because it was, the entire tribunal realized

that, you know, it, you know, Jackson is not up to the, it was not up to the challenge. Which, uh, I think should, I'm convinced that most people, even historians, uh, have not spent a lot of time with the Nuremberg record. I've spent about 20 years with it. I mean, quite literally okay um it uh i think people watch like some kind of two-hour convinced version like you know just judgment at nuremberg but they read jackson's own memoirs which is to say the least not a particularly uh objective take um because i i i found this in law school too even like a lot of people who i thought were otherwise reasoned like you know jackson was this kind of like great litigator it's like how would you think that but um

and Biddle interestingly such that we do to what Biddle actually did think of Jackson he did write in his own diary he said quote Bob Jackson fell on terribly in his cross-examination at Garing he didn't know his case he didn't really study the document about which Gering was being cross-examined Garing quote wisecracked Bob you know

and that's absolutely true Jackson didn't know his case you know he didn't and he didn't know that he didn't you know again too. Like I said, it's like I'm not any kind of military, man. I was never in the service, but, you know, if you deal with questions of war and peace, particularly in an international law such that it can be said to exist, or at least, you know, the convention they're in, what we can, you know, what hold itself out is international law. You know, whether you're talking about Nuremberg, whether you're talking about, you know, issues presented in Syria now, particularly the kind of thing the Obama administration was trying to allege against Mr. Assad. You've got to familiarize yourself in basic terms with, you know, things like rules of engagement. you know, with, with what's precedented as to, you know, the, you know, targeting of, you know, civilian areas. You know, it's, what is the idea was Jackson studying if he wasn't familiarizing himself with these things? And I don't know, like a guy like me, he was a nobody who just, you know, writes about stuff. If Jackson wanted to, he had a whole team of secretary, he could have gotten on the phone to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and been like, hey, you know, let me know, you know, give me a crash course in this.

you know, let me know what the controlling precedent is on that. There's really, there's really no excuse for this, okay? Do you think because he knew the fix was in, he just went in there? Yeah, it's like I said, and it's like Biddle kind of hinted at, you know, Jackson was a guy who, I mean, he was an accomplished guy, I don't know me wrong, but he really was a small town lawyer and he was used to practicing, you know, before, you know, before he got elevated to the Supreme Court, he wasn't tried a real case. in a long time, like as a prosecutor, because he'd been a judge, obviously. But when he had been, he was used to a court that worked hand and glove with the prosecution and basically was there to correct its screw-ups and protect the prosecutor from looking foolish and to smack down his witnesses when they started to get the better of him.

You know, and that's, that's, he was totally outclassed. And yeah, yeah, it was arrogance and just, I don't know, I don't, I don't think judges do a whole lot. Biddle is rare. I mean, Biddle was an A. was the AG. It's kind of its own thing. And Biddle, again, Biddle kind of represents. was good about like the American old money class he was like a workaholic he took his role seriously even if we don't think he was on the side of good you know being a new dealer and everything but you know there's guys like there's more guys than not particularly on the federal bench let alone the Supreme court you know they they reached that level going to politics

and then it's just like you know light becomes kind of a permanent vacation of you know like of uh of uh of you know three scotch lunches and you know in uh and meetings meetings on the golf on the golf links and you know glad handing with politicians and you know having having your ass kissed by you know pretty young interns and clerks and I think that's it man like I've seen this that I mean obviously I've never been around you know people at Jackson's level but I've seen this with uh I've seen this with federal district judges you know go around acting like acting like the Pope or something or like it's ridiculous you know I mean I think that's what it is um more than anything and I just I don't think Jackson was a limited guy

you know um i i really do and and when you're talking about lawyering when you're talking about lawyering at the level like of handling um uh a witness like garing i i constantly cringe at the performance of people who are trial lawyers and i've got something i've got some authority to speak on that because i was one okay um you've got to really be able to shoot from the hip to be a good litigator okay and uh if you're one of these types who like reads off a notes like a seventh grader reading a book report, if one of these idiots who, like, relies on, you know, faux-soaring language that makes everybody cringe, if one of these people who can't think on his feet, it isn't very, very, very comfortable, not just with the controlling authority in terms of the letter of the law,

but as well as language and not to frame your case, you're not really up to the job, you know, and Jackson was not up to the job. What I've handled Gearing better as a witness? Yeah, I think so, because not because I so smart but because Jackson was so bad okay um and I think any any any litigator seasoned or not where the salt would have uh

would have um what would would see it the same way but it uh the final chapter of Mr. Garing is how garing his his demise and his untimely I mean I I untimely in the view of the tribunal because they didn't get a

thing as they hang him but um our final episode let's get into that and we'll get into kind of like the aftermath and what this represents as well as some of the lesser trials like the dog out trial it does deserve mention because it's relevant to what we're talking about um but obviously we're not going to take you know hours to do that but um yeah we're already over an hour here so i mean let's let's let's wrap up for now i think if you're comfortable with it comfortable with that all right um plugs and we'll

go yeah for sure um i'm happy to relay uh i've had yeah i'm happy to relay that uh my uh steel storm The editing process is done. I'm actually recording this weekend with Mike from Imperium Press, my Earthwild publisher. And we're going to talk about that. I'm going to post that up on the pod next week, so you can look forward to that. You can find my podcast, it was my long forum on Substack. It's Real Thomas 777.7.com. You can find us on Telegram.

We've got a very active channel like we really do. I'm not just hyping my own stuff. It's T.m.m.E. slash the number seven, H-M-A-S-77. You can find me on Gab, Real Thomas, 777. We got a lot of good stuff in the wings. I just got a bunch of new hardware. We're launching our YouTube channel, which is Thomas TV at the end of the month. And that's really exciting to me.

So, yeah, that's what I got for now. I appreciate it, man. Until the next time. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Kenyonez show. some people may be sad by this because this looks like it's going to be the last formal episode

so in the World War II revisionist. I think this is episode 21 actually of this. It's been an incredible opportunity, man. I really, really appreciate it. I mean, I appreciate you availing me to this forum, but also

people have been really, really supportive. And, you know, there's been a real sincere there's been a lot of really sincere encouragement and I really, really appreciate that, man. You know, that's really what's kept it going and made, you know, inspired me to, you know, keep the quality at the level it has to be. But yeah, moving forward.

And, and, and, you know, there there could be something in the plans for the future. Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, no, I feel that we've accomplished a lot, man. You know, I'm going to miss doing these two, but we'll move on to other topics that are related and that, you know, kind of naturally follow temporally in terms of, you know, the historical time we're dealing with, you know,

as well as topically. So, yeah, I, every end is a new beginning. What I want to get in today is that, you know, it was, it was some, I want to get into the fate of Herman Gearing, you know, because that's more than a footnote, it's important. And, you know, I want to, there's some kind of loose ends that I want to tie up relating to the Nuremberg proceedings that kind of put the entirety of, of the proceedings in context, as well as raise some other questions that, frankly, weren't ever resolved in terms of, you know, the victorious powers being able to rationalize what the entire enterprise was supposedly premised upon. A common refrain of people, not so much these days, because I think in the post-Cold War era, people are less focused on Nuremberg, or it's been so long since the proceedings. You know, we're coming up on 80 years.

You know, I think that it's so outside of living memory in people's day-to-day sensibilities, because we've talked about before, Americans have a very short memory, historically speaking. um it might not be as um it might not be as as as relevant to you know uh to most people day to day but in academic quarters um it still is very much a lively uh controversy and uh one thing people are apologists for the for the nuremberg trials they make the point that like well you know not all the, not all of the Nuremberg defendants were acquitted. And I believe that was very much by design. Okay. And the three acquittals at Nuremberg, or Franz von Pappen, Hans Fritch, and Helmar shocked.

I think shocked was there to be acquitted. We're going to get into some of the, there's some conspiratorial nuances there. But in terms of the other two men, Hans Fritch was a basically insignificant broadcaster, quite literally at gerbill's ministry um he quite literally was a newsreader as they'd be called in those days okay like he was kind of like if you're if you were if you were if you were born in the 70s like i was in chicago land you know bill curtis was kind of like the you know he was kind of the familiar face and voice like chicago news okay well uh fritch was kind of like that okay really the only reason in my opinion fritch was at nurember was because he was one of the

future really high profile detainees that the Red Army had captured. And he was kind of their prestige prisoner, okay? Franz von Poppin, he was a, he was a Hindenberg loyalist, he was a Catholic conservative. He'd ever so briefly been the vice chancellor because his notion was that he could reign in the national socialist and he thought that Hitler would lose his mandate rapidly after kind of the, uh, after kind of the popular moment in which he was admired past, which of course

was, met that Poppin grossly misread, not just that off Hitler, but the political, the political situation was underway in Weimar, but you know, Poppin was rapidly, von Poppin was rapidly sidelined, um, and, you know, after realizing very quickly that his role was

purely symbolic and Hitler had no intention of affording him really any authority at all. Like, why Von Poppin was there, it, it, it, I, I'd say those to the malice in, some quarters, but basically, like I said, I think Von Poppin and Schock were there to be acquitted. You know, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think there was any intention on, on seeing them go to the gallows, and precisely because they were there kind of as an alibi

defendant, so that makes any sense, okay? It, um, there's a couple things here. On May 22nd, 1946, you know, as their seatings are dragging on and on, uh, Justice Jackson and his son, they took a trip to the to Soviet-occupied territory. They actually went to Prague, where a lot of, the communists tried a lot of people in Prague, not just

in the immediate aftermath of the war, but years later, you know, that's what's the Yaki essay on the doctor's plot, and you know, the defendants there, you know, were tried in Prague. I don't know why that is. Like, somebody who's got, who's more, either somebody,

you know, who's ethnically Russian and has linguistic fluency, or somebody more of a kind of an east block expert than i am might be able to discern this i mean it might be because prague was kind of being the stand-in for the symbolic capital of the east block you know before before east berlin kind of became the jewel in the crown but this endured even beyond that but in any event jacks and the father jacks and the son they go over to prague to observe the trial of carl herman frank um it was a national socialist functionary um who was uh he was kind of the communist kind of

they cast him very much in this kind of butcher's role like Klaus Barbie like many years later what the West you know was um tried Barbie but same kind of figure like a man who doesn't seem to be that much of an impactful individual

but it's kind of made into this monster for for purposes of a show trial and um you know the uh the the the the Jackson's you know saw this trial was rapidly concluded

and um and uh and and and and and frank was immediately hanged you know and jackson made the he remarks that you know that he he had some degree of admiration for this uh for this practice he wrote his own diary that you know it was a revelation and efficiency and quote fairness at trial procedure which i find incredible anybody could say that about the Stalin regime but jackson by this point um i think uh i think it's personally in a and vendettos. And plus, I mean, like we talked about the last episode, just kind of his lack of worldiness. It really, it really kind of brought out ugly features of his character. But he, but I've made the point before, you know, we were talking about kind of the New Deal regime and it's, of whom

Jackson very much was the product and a loyalist, too, you know, they, there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a brutality to their sensibilities. It wasn't just naivete. They, they, they, they, they liked Stalinist methods. You know, they thought that this was legitimate, not just legitimate but laudable for solving problems. But shortly before that, while he was still very much smarting from, you know, the humiliation at the hands of Herman Gehring, the case in chief against Helmar shocked as being presented. And Jackson was very much anticipating this. He looked at this as a chance to redeem himself, you know, and he made it a big point that, you know, he wanted to

personally cross-examine shocked. He thought he viewed, he viewed Shocked as the, quote, toughest of them after Gearing, which doesn't really make a lot of sense, okay? I mean, as I'll get into what I mean in a minute. You know, Shock was chairman of the Reichs Bank. He was not, he was one of the few guys of that generation. Shock didn't have meaningful military experience. You know, he was very much kind of, I mean,

he was very much a banker in every cliched way you can think of, okay? I mean, and I, he was a ruthless guy. He was a highly intelligent guy. but describing it was tough like especially vis-a-vis gearing that I don't get that but it um shocked really

really really annoyed Jackson because he never treated the court as being particularly legitimate when um when uh when uh when uh when uh when fife the erstwhile

British prosecutor was showing um footage of worded and you know dead civilians and gory concentrating of footage like Shocked made a big show crossing his arms and like turning his back and refusing to watch

the the visual aids and you know that again like this kind of stuff it was really easy to get inside Jackson's head and Shocked became very good at that it also

Shocked was pretty he acted very arrogantly and none of the Norberg defendants that acted and behaved with cowardice or were obsequious or anything at all. But many of them were visibly afraid and shocked was never afraid. He regularly, you know, he was overheard in the presence of the guards and the MPs as well as the prosecutorial team saying, I will be acquitted.

You know, just he was not worried about it. And the Jackson was, he was taunted by hate mail, not just from, you know, people were America firsters and were sympathetic to the Nuremberg defendants. You know, but people who thought it was ridiculous that shocks was on the first place, and they were saying, it was obvious to them what we just discussed. They were writing and Jackson

saying, like, you know, you're a chump if you think you're going to convict this man. He's there to be acquitted. You know, he's a big shot banker. You know, there was not, you know, the Great Depression was still well within living memory, obviously, you know, really only a decade and a half had passed

since it was at its most catastrophic phase. And, I mean, in those days as now, like, people just kind of blame bankers for these things, okay? And, like, I'm not saying people should like Wall Street or that they should like people like Helmar shocked, but it's more complicated than that. But point

being, everybody kind of, even people weren't particularly inclined towards partisan opinions, they'd shocked as, you know, this big banker who was only there for a show. And as it turned out shocked did in fact have friends in high places

I mean like I said I think there was an optical an optics aspect to this too for alibi purposes to make the proceedings appear legitimate but one of a man on Jackson's team this got a big shot international New York lawyer

very much the opposite of of Jackson Okay, a guy named Ralph Albrecht, you know, big, big, literally like a New York, Manhattan international law guy, okay? He, uh, he knew a lot of the British prosecution team pretty well because he'd run across him before, okay, just in the course of business, you know, and before the war years and things. And, uh, particularly he, uh, he knew, uh, Harry J. Fillmore, or Fillimore, who was, uh, uh, who was, uh, uh, uh, one of the assistant British prosecutors. And if Fillamore had really kind of accosted him and not a really friendly tenor outside of open court, obviously. And he said, look, like, you've got to relax this pressure on Helmar shocked. And Albrecht's like, why?

You know, and Philharmore kind of looked at him like perturbed. Like, what do you mean why? And he said, well, you know, this, you know, he's like certain representation that made to me, you know, by the governor general of the bank. of England, that it would be most unfortunate for all of our careers, you know, and most importantly, mine, you know, if anything bad would have to fall, Helmar shocked. The governor of the Bank of England was Sir Norman, Sir Montague, Montague Norman. And he'd had plenty of interwar dealings with Shocked, which his face doesn't really

conspiratorial okay i mean if you're if you're the chairman of uh if you're the chairman of the of the national bank um you're you're you're gonna be dealing with your counterparts um in other in your neighbor nations front and full okay and i mean there there wasn't in it the net the monetary system was nowhere near international in the sense that uh you know even in even the terms that it was you know at breton woods or in the years leading up to that But, you know, there was an nascent, not globalism, but internationalism that was taking root, okay? But beyond that, there is evidence that Shocked was basically an informant of a sort. If we can even talk about those, it's speak in such terms or in high finance.

He was passing Norman a lot of insider information and just like a lot of what would constitute intelligence, which is interesting. Schacht must have believed he was not. not particularly in the fear as good graces. And this became an issue during his trial because he very much emphasized that point, and Jackson tried to impeach that totally and he kind of embarrassed himself again. But there must have been a basic trust of Helmar Schacht, okay? Because he, if he was being enshrowed by the SD or the Gestapo, or if he thought he was really on Hitler's bad side,

he would not have been doing these things I mean but or maybe it was I mean frankly shocked got things done that's why he enjoyed the role that he did it's outside the scope of this episode here but there's what built the economy of the Third Reich it's really

fascinating um it's complicated um but it's it's compelling even if one is not an economist and I'm not an economist but it uh a lot of uh a lot of what the Germans were able to accomplish owed to Helmar And the planning of a modern economy is no small thing, even in the best of times.

Or the planning of a vital monetary system, rather, not a, I misspoke, not a planned economy, obviously. But, you know, shocked was, he knew what he was doing. I mean, so in very real terms, I believe, kind of the leadership cadre of the, you know, if we can talk about the inner party of the national socialist state, they, they've very much needed him, okay? Jackson's response to this was typically, it was typically petulant. Jackson said he, under no circumstances,

not only would he not intercede on Shaq's behalf, but he regarded the entire case as a test of, you know, not just the good faith of prosecution, but of his own lawyering skills, you know, which had been bruised in the court of public opinion, as well as among his peers. you know, by the, by the poor performance against Gering. It, uh, Jackson, uh, he, uh, apparently years later, it was relayed that, and this is in the book,

judgment at Nuremberg, which became, you know, a film. Uh, it's not in the film, but, uh, during a meeting of the, uh, prosecutorial team, you know, Jackson, he became history, uh, positively histrionic. He said that, you know, if this court holds, we have no case against shocked, you know, we have no case against any industrialists or any of these defendants, you know, the case against him is the strongest case we have, which is ridiculous, okay? I mean, what it's, even if one accepts kind of the good faith, even if one accepts in good faith the allegations of the Nuremberg indictment, do they think that people like

Caldenbrenner and before him, Hydrick, and Himmler and the furor were, we're talking to their banker friend, Helmer Schocked, about how to deal with, you know, racial undesirables on the Eastern Front. I mean, like, how would this even work? You know, I mean, but again, it, you could, you could make a bigger argument that Morgan Thau was more responsible for war crimes and death than Shocked was. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, it's, as the head of the Federal Reserve at the time.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. The whole thing was absurd. And like I said, I, it strikes to me. is like everybody my opinion and i mean again i'm just i'm just a guy who writes about historical topics but i you know i think i think i'm reasonably worldly and i think i know the topic fairly well the way i read it is like i said shocked was there to be acquitted everybody understood this but jackson you know the kind of petty guy who was kind of a bumpkin anyway still smarting from being embarrassed by gearing and he wasn't in on you know the gentleman's understanding everybody had

And when he came out swinging and shocked, the British basically, they pulled the guy aside or they'd like to rely on. And they said, hey, what the hell is your boss doing? Why is he acting like, you know, we're trying to convict this guy? You know, that's the way I read it. And yeah, I mean, frankly, even, you know, even if he believed there was a good faith case, he made against shock, this idea that, you know, he was the linchpin of the entire case. Otherwise, it has no credibility. like that's that's ridiculous but it um and also too there's a uh it's a little bit upside the scope i want to get in i mean we'll get into this at a later date so i think it's important but

the uh you know the thing after what when truman took off as it was clear that there weren't going to there wasn't going to be the kind of warm and cozy relationship with the soviet union that there had been under roosevelt you know um but there was no sense that the cold war was going to kick off in earnest okay At the same time, you know, the victorious powers realized they had to dot their eyes and cross their T's. They wanted to set a precedent that would essentially give them moral authority to, that they would give them absolution of all the things they had done while kind of casting, you know, the Germany and the blackest light imaginable. But there had to be limitations. There had to be certain parameters that wouldn't be transgressed in terms of sovereign immunity.

and one of those, I think, dealt with, you know, the economic side of the business and government. I mean, if Shaq had been hanged, I mean, first of all, that would have caused all kinds of problems, but it would have set a remarkably bad precedent for the victors, okay? That basically mean, you know, like liability could accrue against any kind of bean counter in government or anybody in the executive branch who, you know, if a quorum of powerful countries could, be assembled who declared that they wanted his blood. I mean, the implications you're obvious. So, I mean, it was

all of those things. And it, I, the fact Jackson didn't discern this is incredible to me. And the fact he also didn't realize why he shocked and von Poppin were there to begin with, is incredible to me too. But maybe I'm Monday morning quarterbacking. Okay.

I mean, I, if that's the verdict of the listeners, I mean, so be it. Again, I'm just, I'm just a guy. I don't have some kind of augury or, or, or any kind of, like, great insight into history, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not an international law expert. I mean, I, I was a lawyer, but it's, it's not, you know, there's specialties are specialties for a reason. The crux of Jackson's, uh, on, uh, on cross-examination, uh, shocked, shocked was kind of a nasty guy,

and I mean, he was a super smart guy, but he wasn't really charismatic. So, uh, you know, he didn't have the rapt attention of the court like Garing did, but he was visibly shaking up Jackson. Jackson told to call him just shocked, not hair-shocked, not Mr. Schox, just shocked. You know, and his primary, the primary thrust was to impeach Schock's credibility, because Schach said, like, look, I did not really get along with the fear. I was not really in his inner circle. He certainly didn't discuss policy matters. You know, basically, you know, it was my responsibility to sustain the integrity of the economics the you know the the financial system and uh such that the uh such that you know the german political leadership you know picked what we think of as picking

winners and losers um in terms of in terms of public subsidies like shocked it basically report you know to hitler like what was possible and what was not um you know based upon uh based upon all the conventional metrics of national prosperity um Jackson, really all he had was, you know, he made a big show of, of queuing up this newsreel of Hitler's triumphant return to Berlin after the defeat of France and, you know, July 1940. You know, and Hitler's train, like, rolls in, and there's a long line of Vermeck Brass, you know, and government luminaries who, who, you know, almost all. of whom like held rank in the in the in the essay um but then they're shocked like the one man in civilian cloa was you know coming up and like shaking hitler's hand with both hands um and jackson's like see you know he's the one he's the one man not in uniform you know like on

you know greeting his fur you know and obviously you know they they were thick as thieves as it were which doesn't really make a lot of sense again i mean that's it'd be kind of like saying you know like you know, take any U.S. president meeting with the chairman of the Federal Reserve, like it, I mean, it's, it'd be kind of like saying that, like, Alan Greenspan was, you know, it was some kind of essential part of like

Bush 43's War Cabinet. Just look, they're shaking hands and look like buddies in this picture I have. I mean, I'm, I'm really been kind of deliberately obtuse and, and what have you, and context is everything, but I, it was a very weak, uh, it was a very weak way to try and impeach a

witness, okay? Um, the uh can i ask did shock um did he answer his questions on the stand in english or german both primarily he spoke to a translator i believe but i'd have to i'd have to check that wondering yeah no that's a that's a great question it um the uh when shocked was acquitted i mean that uh this kind of solidified uh i mean jacks was convinced this was another example of Francis Biddle trying to destroy him because you know like we talked about last episode Jackson developed

this kind of paranoiac idea that Biddle was his mortal enemy the Biddle claimed months later that he wanted to convict shocked and actually he had voted to convict shocked his alibi was I had no choice the British insisted on acquittal and there was nothing I could do

at the time it was believed that the French had been the ones who had really intervened of A half of Shocked, and I believe British intelligence probably dropped that into world media, but what Biddle did or didn't do as regards the faith of Halmar Schacht had nothing to do with him trying to make Jackson look stupid, any more than he loved Herman Gearing, and, you know, didn't admonish him to, you know, to restrict his answers to the, you know, in scope and and maintain, you know,

brevity of the point of single word answers in order to, you know, so I'll stick it to Jackson. But, shocked was acquitted. And that was that. Now, I want to get into kind of a macabre topic, but it's material to do what we're talking about, as well as the fate of Mr. Gehring, among other things.

the uh i'm sorry there was three gallows that were built in nuremberg um it was a single apparatus but it uh a single platform but it had three uh it had three drop doors and like three actual gallows um the u s army at the time its uh its regulation method was the standard drop method a standard drop in hanging it involves a drop between four and six feet

and it came into use in the 1860s because if you're if your hangman's rope is too short you kill the condemned by strangulation which is incredibly brutal

and an incredibly painful way to go there was a there was a there was a more there was a more advanced method called the long dropped method that took into account the body weight of the condemned

and other things to try and guarantee that the neck was broken when they were dropped I don't know why the U.S. Army did not incorporate this into regulation or why they didn't make the adjustment but they didn't Okay, and this isn't just macabre trivia. It becomes significant. Herman Gearing was not going to allow himself to be executed for a few reasons.

Not just because, Garing, like Yacan Piper, you know, who himself was under a death sentence until, thankfully, that was manumitted. Garing was very, very upset when he found out he would be hanged because infamous criminals are hanged. You know, murderers are hanged. You know, people like rapists and people who take sexual liberties and children are hanged, you know, like thieves are hanged. You know, you, like a soldier is entitled to be tried by courts martial and if convicted to be shot, you know, and that's no small thing.

And when people are hanged, like, it's grotesque. You know, I mean, even if they're, even if their neck breaks rather cleanly, you know, it's an indignified way to die. And Garing also, and again, he was, he was vindicated on this concern. He had no reason to believe that the execution would be clean or proper. And, like, Fred Loichter made the point. I don't want to get into a debate here about the merits of Luke Loichter. Those who are keen to revisionism are probably familiar with Loiter, but Errol Morris did a great documentary on Leichter. And Leuctor campaigned extensively to reform the methods of execution

in the United States. And he designed most of the execution equipment that was utilized in this country for a time. Because executions are generally inhumane. You know, it's a, it's, as was the case in Nuremberg, it's these, you know, U.S. Army, military police who don't have any experience they're not abiding any real uh any real um parameters to guarantee that uh it's swift and painless and dignified you know it's not it's not like there's reputable doctors on deck you know who are making sure that this goes off effectively um i i wouldn't i wouldn't i wouldn't let a team of uh military police or irritated they've got to do this kind of duty hang me either if i need choice okay um that was garing's a notion and uh on october 15th

946 at 1047 p.m. One private first class, Harold F. Johnson, who was, you know, doing his rounds of the detainees the night before they were to be executed. When he peaked through the peephole in Garing's cell, he saw Gering with his bag, turned to him along in his bunk. Suddenly he seemed to stiffen and then being convulsing. You know, he ran to the phone.

and he called for the corporal on duty. I believe was the NCO on duty. You know, he called him and said, you know, we've got a medical emergency. One of the sergeants of the MPs from another building came running over. Finally, finally the prison chaplain, a man named Garrick, and they notified the prison doctor

and the prison doctor pronounced him dead apparently Garrick the chaplain grabbed Gering's arm that was hanging limply just you know out of the bunk and took his pulse and said good Lord, you know

Garing is dead you know the doctor who was a German named Fluker or Flucker he was worried that he'd somehow be blamed for assisting Gearing in committing suicide. Fluker, as well as the as well as the corporal, the MP corporal, they both noted that when they wanted a cell,

there was an unmistakable, overwhelming smell of cyanide. And cyanide apparently has a repungent odor. Okay, so Fluker, he had no doubt that Gearing had taken cyanide. And clasped in his hand, Gehring had an envelope. There had two envelopes. One of them had a bunch of papers and the other one had a brass casing

that looked like a shell casing, but it was empty. And upon examining Garing's teeth, there were tiny shards of glass. So obviously he'd taken a cyanide capsule of the kind that, again, not to be macabre,

but it's relevant to it's topically relevant of the kind that were widely distributed you know during the final months of the war in Germany so that um you know people could opt for suicide in lieu of uh you know being raped to death by uh you know um advancing uh crazed red army troops or you know being unceremoniously shot for membership in a criminal organization or uh you know in the case of Gearing, you know, people who would undoubtedly be branded major war criminals and, you know, be

availed of these kinds of politicized court proceedings. But, but Gearing was dead. And I believe that, Garing had a, he had a, he had a well-known, like, good rapport with many of the guards. I believe Garing had this, his cyanide in the shell casing, scrolled away among his personal effects and he he was able to convince one of the guards to bring it to him i don't see how else this could have happened um but it uh it was uh it created a real uh it created a real scandal um the uh the the commandant of nuremberg uh of the you know of the of the detainees of

the detain of the jail premises was a colonel i mean colonel named burton c andrew who, by all accounts, was an honorable guy. And he, it was important to him to allow every condemned man to walk freely from his cell to the gallows. But the Allied control commission just refused to allow it after gearing suicide. They demanded these men be shackled

and frog march to the gallows. Then the shackles undone. You know, their hands tied with, with rope, you know, the hood to be put over their head and then to be hanged. which is incredibly, that's, that's incredibly petty and just wrong, you know, not, not to let a man walk to his own execution, particularly, you know, I mean, even if a man's as a common criminal, I think that that's misguided, but particularly, you know, men who were heads of government. So, uh, each condemned man was quite literally shackled and then marched to the, uh, to the gallows. And, uh, as Earhart, Mills said, Every one of them died bravely.

They had ice in the remains. And that's true. Nobody went to pieces. Nobody died like anything but a stoic. And no one appeared at all unmanly or undignified. October 16th, 1946, at 1.29 a.m., the first Nuremberg defendant to be hanged was Yacin von Riventrop. It took von Rivenrop about 20 minutes to die because the rope strangled him. You know, and so he was gagging and bleeding, and apparently was something of an awful sight.

But before the trapdoor is opened and being strangling him, Ruben Traub's last words were, quote, God save Germany and be merciful on my soul. My last wishes for United Germany, understanding between East and West and peace on Earth. And then he nodded, and then, you know, he was dropped and strangled. Immediately after, Cytle, the Field Marshal, he was next

his final words were quote more than two million German soldiers died for their fatherland I know followed them and my sons who gave their all for Germany and that was it Alfred Rosenberg he was the one defendant

or Alphan Rosenberg said nothing he just ascended the gallows and that was it Hans Frank who'd become who had returned to his Catholic faith in detention which I think was very genuine if you read his letters

he had a smile on his face and he seemed not a smirk just like a genuine smile he seemed to be at peace and that I guess that took a back like the not just the not just the MPs who were the execution team but you know the officers who were observing it

and he thanked he thanked Colonel Andrews for being kind to him and he thanked the jail staff and he appear to be saying a prayer and then, you know, he he, uh, he was dropped and that was it.

Wilhelm Frick, uh, who was the Reich minister of the interior. Um, he, uh, he was unrepent and he was, he yelled out long live the eternal Germany. Julius Stryker, who, uh,

you know, was kind of the, like we talked about briefly, he was literally only there for publishing to Sturmer, which however crude or pornographic or offensive, people might find it, the guy was quite literally a private sector propagandist. I mean, he

briefly had, you know, a posting as a galiter, and he was an old fighter in the National Socialist Party, but this is a guy who got a hanged for publishing a magazine. But Stryker, he was the most defiant, and his

incidentally, the hanging took place on Purim, you know, the which among other things, I mean, it's a Jewish, it's one of the high holidays of the Jewish people commemorating their deliverance from Haman and also

celebrating, you know, the smiting of their enemies. So, uh, Stryger's last words were Heil Hitler, he said, this is a joyous Jewish festival, isn't it? But it is my Purim festival. The day will come and the Bolsheviks will hang a lot of you. Like, often it's translated as the Bolsheviks will hang you someday. He actually said the day will come when the Bolsheviks will hang a lot of you.

And they dropped it when he was still talking. Like, some people say his last words where they said, you know, I love you, Adele, who's his wife? Fritz Salkle, he was a galliter of thuringia. Plus, what really landed him in the defendant's docket was there was the plato potentiary for labor deployment after 1942. Like in plain English, what that means is that, Um, they essentially, they essentially assigned to him full responsibility for the slave labor program, okay? Um, especially as, uh, as total war, uh, very end of 1984 in the 94 as total war mobilization to be given a reality. Um, they, you know, they hung, they hung liability for that on, on Salkl. Okay. Um, he's, uh, he's kind of overlooked among the defendants, along with Robert Lay, who was, uh, you know, the,

Reich waiver leader who committed suicide before the before the proceedings. But Salchal said, I die an innocent man, God save Germany and make her great again. Yodel,

Alfred Yodel, you know, the general, who, it's kind of one fairly maligned as just an errand boy of Adolf Hitler. That's not the whole story. And when we, way back when we were talking about the Munich crisis, you know, Yodel was the one who, he was

he was he was he was he was hitler's greatest critic and he even talked about you know essentially a uh a hoon to overthrow him if hitler moved to make war on the bennist government in in chagoslovakia it was only much later in relative terms that he he became a hitler loyalist but uh yodel uh apparently stood upright he said i send you greetings my germany and that was it and um the final uh defendant to be hanged was Arthur Seisenkort who was an interesting guy

in all kinds of ways. You know, very briefly, he was the Austrian Chancellor during the Anschluse you know, very kind of the preeminent Austrian National Socialists and that's really why he was there. Nominally he was a he was a deputy, he was the deputy governor to Hans Frank

in the general government you know, which was Poland, you know, in Reich speak that's you know with the general that was designated the general government um so the the disaster that was poland um and all things they're in was essentially put on the shoulders of of frank cites in court like i said i he was he was the leading austrian national socialist to to be alive and in custody um unless you count colton brenner and colton brenner was a brutal guy and a hard guy but in political terms was something of a sipher in my opinion but he uh Scyon Quartet, he had the most poignant final statement.

He said, I hope that this execution is the final act in the tragedy of World War II and that people will learn from this example so that truth and understanding can be restored among nations. I believe in Germany. And he was hanged at 257 a.m. And that was it. Crudely, in my opinion, and Colonel Andrews, in his own,

own, in his own diary, this seemed to bother him. They, uh, they, uh, they had, they had, they had Herbert Gereing's remains dragged into the room where the gallows had been erected and laid out next to the, uh, other condemned, um, merely so that, uh, you know, the, uh, merely so that, you know, the, the general was representing the, uh, the L.I control council could come view them, you know, then they were photographed, then they were photographed, then they were stripped naked again and photographed, which it seems entirely gratuitous.

In the case of in the case of a Kidal, Yodel, and a frick, the gallows' door, after opening and dropping it, swung back and, like, broken the bones in their faces. So their corpses appear to be

disturbed, and that's why it on the coffins ultimately the remains the condemned they're all put in coffins and they were secretly removed and this wasn't revealed

until months later they were removed to the dock out what had been the dockout concentration camp they were incinerated in the crematorium there and the ashes were strewn into the river where it which and the river runs

immediately past a garden in Soln, Munich which apparently is kind of peaceful. I don't David Irving visited that area, but that's, you know, that's, that's what became of their mortal remains. The people have asked before, like, where's Herman Gehring's grave? And there is none. You know, and now it's deliberate.

And that, that was, that was that. there's some outstanding things that I think people might be curious about that will kind of preempt now like what happened to Rudolph Hess you know we got into Hess's fate in terms of life imprisonment and that kind of unbelievably bizarre and horrible tale but at Nuremberg Hess was he was spirited to Nuremberg from, you know, his detention holdings in the U.K.

And he seemed at first totally out of his mind. And then slowly he started to kind of become more rational. And at first he claimed amnesia and he just refused to, you know, he refused to answer anything on grounds that his memory had left him. But then his time went on, he kind of snapped out of it. And he declared that, like, you know, I've been feigning amnesia because, you know, I didn't recognize, and I don't recognize the legitimacy of these proceedings, but

you know, I have to have my faculties about me and do the best I can to defend my comrades. And that was that. And when he was on the stand, Jackson tried to make him look like a buffoon, or

you know, like a man who had fled to the UK, like out of cowardice, you know, after planning this, you know, aggressive war, which was somewhat ridiculous, but but, um, Haushofer, uh, Carl Haushofer came to visit Hess and, uh,

has became visibly emotional. You know, he didn't, he didn't weep or anything, but it, uh, you know, and Haushofer said that, you know, like, Hess had been broken, you know, he's like, I, I can't speak to whether his amnesia is legitimate or not, or if it's a tactic, but, you know, like, there's something, like, missing, you know, he's not just diminished. Uh, his mind has been broken.

And, um, I've not, out believing that, like aside in the... I mean, first of all, the ploy of amnesia, that seems crazy, too, and that kind of thing was never in character of us before. Hesed attempted, uh... Hesed attempted to bring, like, bread samples from what they'd given him on his food tray, because he said

the British were poisoning him. I mean, he was showing symptoms of various mental illnesses aside from the... Aside from the claim of amnesia. I mean, it was obvious that they destroyed this man, you know, and it's I... Why he, uh... You know, why... Why he was

availed at all. I mean, if they wanted to particularly out of a, if they wanted to do away with him, it's like, okay, hand him over to the Soviets and if they're insisting upon him being availed to, you know, a punishment regime, in addition

to what he'd already suffered, I mean, which seemed incredible in its maliciousness. I mean, do that. Or, you know, try him as a prisoner of war. An ordinary prisoner of war, albeit one of extraordinary rank in the UK. And the fact that he was, he showed up at Nuremberg at all, or that they produced him there as strange, especially

because, you know, crazy or sane or lucid or not, uh, Hess was not a man who was going to crack under questioning or proffer the kind of testimony that the prosecution wanted him to in order to condemn his comrades or his fur. And Hess made, uh, I mean, sadly just, I mean, not, not because there was anything wrong with the sentiment, but it showed you that, you know, Hess was kind of too much of an earnest guy for the role he found himself in. You know, Hess was the only thing in the point that he never let down eat off Hitler, even if Hitler might have thought that, you know, and that crush it. But he needed everybody to know that, like, he didn't betray Hitler,

and that's not why he went on his flight. I mean, I found that incredibly sad. But, you know, that was that was that. And then pretty rapidly, you know, like I said, there was the trials of the lesser work criminals, there was the Einzitz group in trial. And most interesting to me is the DACA trial, which again, had nothing to do with, you know, the

SD personnel who staffed the dockout camp. It was just the venue, which seems random and macab for the trial of first SS, Leapstandart, the Malamity massacre. And that might be worth diving into in the future. Because I know people like Yacom

Piper, like myself included, and it's a compelling narrative. And it shows you kind of some of the basic corruption of the prosecution and if we get into that people will see what I mean but you know the

you know within within months of a of the Nuremberg verdicts coming in and and the defendants being hanged or sent off the prison you know the

the Cold War began setting in you know and then you know by the time of the Berlin blockade it had begun in earnest you know and people people were like it's weird it was a resurgent David Irving on this there was a resurgence kind of obsession with Nazis

as they're called in your kind of Western short hand in the 70s because by the 50s and 60s in the 50s it was like well you know we we may very well need you know wasn't Germany to kind of absorb the first wave of of communist assault you know we

we've kind of got to stop maligning these people as a bunch of brutes and butchers um You know, and the re-education regime and the social engineering regime of, you know, was, you know, continued in earnest in the Bundes Republic, but kind of making a boogeyman of the Third Reich that it really kind of faded. And then in the 70s, like it came back in absolute earnest. You know, some people think it owed, you know, the kind of changing circumstances indicated by the 973 war. you know, some people think it owed to the, you know, the Israeli lobby really developing

an ability to kind of impact public policy through their own narratives. I mean, it's a complicated issue. But, you know, I guess what I'm getting at is that people just kind of rapidly forgot about Nuremberg, you know, and it's McCarthy, to his credit, he did what he could to try and, I mean, I'm not a huge McCarthy fan. I think he was a limited guy. I mean, I think his heart was in the right place. But to his credit, he, you know, he, he went to bat a lot for, for German soldiers who'd been incarcerated wrongfully, like the Leap Zendart boys and others.

You know, Francis Yaki was obviously, that was, he was reactive in those causes before he kind of left America for good, you know, physically and spiritually and psychologically. But, you know, it just didn't, it just didn't loom large on people's radar. However, the strategic paradigm of the Cold War very much brought into question, I believe, the legitimacy of anything even alleged in Nuremberg. I mean, where, you know, the pole star in nuclear war planning is, as I talked about, assured destruction. Assured destruction is the tipping point at which one has killed in enemy society. through assault with strategic nuclear weapons. And in the case of the Soviet Union in 1965, that would have entailed killing about 60 million people.

I mean, this just became normal, you know, planning for warfare in these terms. You know, levels of destruction and a megicide that dwarf anything that came before it. It was not incidental to the enterprise. It was the raison d'etra of it. So, I mean, I think people taking into this understand exactly where I'm going. But that's, that kind of concludes our third rights series, man.

And like I said, I hope we can collaborate again on a revisionist series that takes up the Cold War. But, yeah, that would be great. Oh, and I want to announce that I'm launching my YouTube channel next week. I'm going to do it with a live stream as kind of the maiden voyage, as it were. It's going to be Thomas TV, and there's going to be, I'm going to drop plenty of links on my Tgram and elsewhere to get the word out. You can find us on Tgram. We've got a very active channel. It's t.m.m.m.e. slash the number 7, H.M.A. 7777.

you can find us on Substack RealThomas 7777.7.com. You can find me on Gab at Real Thomas 7777. And that's all I got. Well, I'm sure everybody enjoyed it. And pretty soon I'm going to get it up all in one place. So, you know, it's all spread out all over a bunch of different episodes over probably almost 60 episodes now, over 60 episodes. So I'm going to get it all up in one place and I'll let everyone know. And then, yeah, we will talk about what we want to do next.

Yeah, that's fantastic, man. Again, thank you so much. And I want to thank all your subs and, like, all the people just tune in and have dropped really, really kind words and really supported the whole enterprise. And, yeah, like I said, as soon as you're able and interested in doing so, I'd like to have a live in Q&A where people can, you know, we can kind of dive deeper into the particular discrete issues that people want to

talk about from this series. That would be really great. Yeah, we'll schedule that for a couple weeks. That's great. Thank you, Pete. And thank you, everybody. Well, we are live. What's going on, everyone? Trying to see if I can get this to pull up in entropy,

but been having trouble with entropy. So let me just try. One more time. And, how's it gone, Thomas? Very well. How are you? Oh, you know, technical difficulties, that kind of thing.

It's very much autumn here, and it's very dark and rainy. You know, October in Chicago is very much October. You know, Ray Bradbury was from O'Kagan, O'N. which is just northern here that's where the naval base is for that's where most like navy people go for their boot camp but what kegan's kind of um it used to be properly comparable to the north shore it's been pretty rough for about 50 years but you know he was always writing about Halloween you know like the Halloween tree is one of his classic stories and the Midwest is is like Halloween country man so even though the weather's crummy I kind of like

it when autumn sets in cool yeah it's carbon pumpkin soon yeah we're already um we're already getting cool down here like in the evening um i actually broke out the space heater last night in in alabama i'm thinking uh i'm thinking this winter is going to be pretty cold like i just got in the mail just like literally like before we went live i uh my leather jacket's pretty warm, but it's not sub-zero warm. So I got a, I got a, I got an M-65

a cold weather army field jacket, and I got it an M-81 urban camouflage. And I realized urban camouflage is useless in a combat zone, particularly the M-81 Cold War stuff, but it's the coolest-looking camouflage that was ever made. So I even if I'm,

even if it makes me, even if it does not break up my target of silhouette, I I think it looks pretty dope. So I'll be a fashionable casually. All right. Before we already have some super chats here. So before I start, if you go to the pinned comment in the chat,

you will see a link to entropy, to the entropy stream. And that is not Google. And any super chats you do there, no money will be going to Google. So, and entropy doesn't take as much as Google does. So, all right, let's see. We already got some here. So, all right. But, blah, blah, first question is from, and I can't see the name because of this, I apologize.

What would it, what do you think it would have taken for the Japs to surrender absent of nukes? The Japanese were trying to surrender for months. And as I made the point on our series and other places, if you cut off diplomatic relations and to a total war, And you simply declare, we will not accept any capitulation other than unconditional surrender. And you issue that declaration incident to, again, this absence, this deliberate absence of diplomatic offices. How do you surrender? That's basically a declaration of, I will never stop attacking you. I mean, how were the Japanese to surrender?

The United States refused to talk to them. And they were being subjected to, they were being subjected to bombing raids by, a thousand aircraft that were killing literally 100,000 people within days. I mean, what do you do? You know, that's not that's not at all a normal way to conduct a war. You always

want communication with your enemy. Okay, that's unprecedented to simply declare we will not negotiate. We will not accept normal surrender terms. Not only that, but we won't even negotiate surrender terms. There's this mythology that the Japanese are just this race

of insane people or something who, for no reason, decided to fight to the last man. Like, that doesn't make sense. That's not the case. And the entire Japanese notion was this, I tend to agree with John Mearsheimer, who pointed out in his book, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics. Out of all combatant powers, the Japanese were the most critically situated, the most disadvantaged. They, inarguably had no choice but to go to war, either with the United States of the Soviet Union or the UK, okay, but that would have turned into a battle with the United States or the Soviet Union. The Japanese notion, once the Navy kind of won out and got the emperor's ear for a war strategy,

the Japanese reasoned that they could defeat the U.S. Navy in the Pacific, and then that would force some kind of negotiation, which actually probably would have happened. If the United States had been defeated at Midway, I think Roosevelt, may have been removed from office. But whether even if he wasn't, I don't see how he could address the country, you know, especially after Pearl Harbor and said, okay, you know, we just lost the Pacific Fleet again, you know, well, I demand, you know, I demand Congress, you know, give me what I need to reconstitute and just continue this war. But to bring it back, the Japanese unconditional, cutting off diplomatic relations and declaring, I will only accept

unconditional surrender. In plain English, that means I will never stop attacking you, and you'll be defeated when I declare you defeated and not before. And that's exactly what happened. We're seeing a situation in the world right now where one side is refusing to negotiate with the other. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, all right. Next question. This is from Pariah Rahani. He says, you seem to imply Germany would have won the war if they had taken Moscow. Napoleon took Moscow and lost the war. Why do you think it would have been different?

Because the 20th century was not the 19th century, because the Russian army was totally differently situated, because the world's situation was not at all comparable, because the Vermat had already defeated all of its rivals on the continent. Because what you tell me, okay, Moscow falls, Soviet command of control is knocked out. The Soviet defenders at Moscow are eradicated. those that remain If Moscow

Why Moscow didn't fall is because the fewer diverted forces attached to army groups south the Kiev and the Kiev region that the Ukrainian military district to wipe out Red Army reserves, which the Vermat

did. Okay, so had the drive from Moscow continued in earnest, had they not happened, there still would have been reserve elements in Ukraine, but they would have been fighting on reverse fronts without command and control, without the ability to resupply, and once they were, once they were defeated with no ability to reconstitute, okay? Like, whereas you might keep in mind also that Napoleon had a huge problem in the West because there were armies on the continent

mass to engage his forces. What forces were there to engage the Vermont? The British army had been destroyed and humiliated. France was occupied. Like what? You tell me, like, what were the allies going to do? The way Germany wins the Second World War is defeating the Soviet Union in 1941. You defeat the Soviet Union by taking Moscow, wiping out Soviet command and control, and becoming the master not just of the continent, but of the World Island, if you want to look at it like that. And I'm not a military man, but I do know something about the way technology, impacts strategic decision

making and strategic realities. You can't compare the 20th century to the 19th. You just can't. Even before the atomic age, it's apples and oranges. That's why. All right. Heath asks, thoughts on Patton. Was he

killed for his views on they who shall not be named or for hatred of the Soviets or was it truly an accident? Either was possible. there's a lot of people who would have had there's a lot of people would have had the motive and desire

and incentive to murder patent but at the same time it's somewhat overstated I mean I'm not saying that's impossible I mean he may well have been murdered but at the same time patent had very much been sidelined in favor of Omar Bradley

I mean this was when the war was raging at 43-44 he was not particularly well-liked by a good swath of America the incident where he slapped a shell-shocked soldier that might not seem like a big deal but that really outraged people uh patten was viewed everybody respected him as a hard man and a game commander but he was seen as kind of a cowboy and kind of a crude guy and kind of a lunatic you know i mean he he was and and aside from that it's not like fatten was not he was not going to get a theater wide command. And in the burgeoning, in like the pre-NATO structure, it's not like he was

going to get a prestige role in the occupation of Berlin. You know, he was going to be, he was going to be retired and basically exiled. So, I mean, it does make the question on the other side, like, why murder the guy, like his career was dead, you know? I mean, could he have, could he have, you know, gone on to be some kind of right-wing figurehead. Yeah, but I mean, Edwin Walker did that. You know, like there's a lot. And yeah, okay, some of these guys weren't under the profile

and prestige of Patton, but it's not like there haven't been military men in the past who became like far right. I mean, there's a day that happens, okay? But Americans don't rally about, America's not Italy, America's not Argentina. Like, Americans don't rally around, you know, the general and like, you know, just because of his rank or something.

It doesn't carry a whole lot of clout in America. I mean, it doesn't in some places, okay, but nationwide, it's like, okay, so Patton comes back to America and decides he's, you know, decided he's going to be like the, you know, some big John Bircher type or some big, you know, America first revivalist who kind of names the traditional enemy. Okay, well, other guys did that and it didn't, you know, it didn't somehow change the political culture or something. So that's my view. But yeah, it is possible. all right this one's over on entropy from carter say hey guys love the show thank you both so much i wanted to ask thomas's thoughts on the nuremberg defense or the legitimacy of quote unquote just following orders in the context of command and legal defense the problem

aside from the problem the due process issues and the kind of conceptual problems with nuremberg superior orders absolutely as a defense because it's a crime to disobeyed Bay orders. Insubordination in a combat zone, it's not just a crime. It's a capital offense. So if you're going to tell me that say a guy like Lieutenant Callie was, a 23-year-old inexperienced second lieutenant, you're telling me that if a captain who gets orders from a colonel, who gets orders from a general, directs him to eradicate civilian elements, Cali is supposed to just commit naked insubordination in a combat zone. And if he's He doesn't, if he doesn't break, if he doesn't flagrantly violate the UCMJ and in doing so place

himself in mortal penal jeopardy, we're going to charge him with a crime. That's absurd. It's absurd ethically. It's absurd in terms of the way, in terms of precedent and the way the law works and what we consider duress. And plus, you know, the reason why militaries are structured the way they are, it's not just for the sake of order and for the sake of the fact that, you know, complexity requires. you know, men to be insinuated in a certain role

or a senior, not just an age, but an intellect. But somebody like Cali or even a seasoned NCO, he's not in a position to decide what's a war crime. You know, this stuff is not clear cut. People watch the movies and stuff and they think, you know, they think, oh, there's, you know, there's combatants and they're obvious, you know, bad guy looking people.

And then there's non-combatants and they're like old ladies and children. That's not how it works. And as any inventory veteran will tell you, you know who's been in direct combat in such capacities you know is what the how the r rules of engagement um translates a real world action is not always clear and you know whether a kill is a good kill or not is not always clear you know and it's not just a question of you know somebody's sex or age or relative health or what going to clothes they're wearing or you know where they happen to be situated um and finally too i mean think

Look at the logic of a free fire zone. I mean, and this is where a lot of these issues emerge, not just in Vietnam or such things were formally declared, but behind the lines in the Soviet Union, what Vermacht forces were instructed was essentially identical to the ROE that American forces received in free fire zones in Vietnam, You know, that anybody who's refused evacuation or deliberately avoided it is presumed hostile.

So proceed accordingly. Okay. I mean, so that's, but we don't even really get that far because, again, how can, you know, if you reject the Superior Order's doctrine as a perfect defense, you're saying that any man of any rank, he's obligated to refuse, he's obligated to commit raw insubordination and risk at drop. Rumhead's court martial and death sentence after calculating what, you know, what in fact is an illegal order or not. And that's on its face that's preposterous. All right. Those questions from Rock Paladin, and I'm not going to use any names in this one.

Do you think as time passes that AH will eventually be rehabilitated by history? Yeah, it's already starting to happen in subtle ways in the Western world and in pretty kind of a flagrant ways. in, you know, the kind of non-white Western world, you know, and not just because, you know, the power of the people, the craft propaganda narratives in history has been dramatically deteriorated by the Internet and things, but also the kind of objectivity of distance, you know, has allowed a more sober reflection on such things, even among populations and would otherwise be susceptible to these kinds of politicized narratives, but also it's just becoming clear, you know, what the true historical

factors were that were altered by the war first and foremost among which like this kind of typical Tory historian Chris Bellamy pointed out the Soviet Union was crippled for all time by the war you know and if you want to know what the fear will be viewed as kind of just at a glance

and you know two centuries from now he'll be viewed as the warlord who who prevented the Soviet Union from becoming this, you know, world-dominant superpower for all time. So, yeah, it's already starting to happen. Okay. I have a bunch on entropy, but I'm going to do. We got one more over here on YouTube from John Libel, a friend of mine. I think I remember you saying that Wilson was blackmailed into getting into World War I.

How did that happen? How that happened was that one, as good offices, kind of emerged between London and Washington. And, you know, like I played the point before, you know, until the turn of the 20th century, there was not good relations between the U.K. and the U.S.A. And, you know, as late as the 1870s, there were real, there were incidents on the northern border and in the mid-Atlantic that could have very easily led to war, okay? what changed that was you know efforts like Wilson wanted to kind of situate himself as an international president

and you know he made a state visit to the UK which was a big deal and you know the in turn you know like wanting reciprocated but owing to those good offices that have been built up even preceding the Wilson administration when war broke out London approached Wall Street

and said, you know, basically, you know, our victory is assured, but, you know, we don't have the liquidity. We have the equity, but not the liquidity, you know, to wage this war. So a huge amount, massive amounts of unsecured credit were extended to the U.K. Obviously, that was a complete mischaracterization of what the situation was on the battlefield. You know what London represented to Wall Street. So when it became clear that the German offensive in 1917 was actually going to prevail, J.P. Morgan got on the phone to the White House and said, you fix this right now. You know, you're not going to let, you're not going to let, you know, London lose this war.

You know, we are not going to eat this loss. You know, we're not going to eat billions of dollars, you know, because, you know, because the Kaiser, because the Kaiser, right, you know, bowls over the British, army in marches and terrorists. That's what I mean. You know, and that doesn't mean bankers did World War I. But if you're looking for a case where Wall Street

really was neck deep in terms of its investment in the outcome of a major conflict, that was it. Okay. And that was an essential proximate cause of American intervention. And that's also

why subsequently the Nye committee held these public hearings on, you know, what the role of the armaments industry was in lobbying for intervention because it was clear not even just, just even with a cursory analysis, aside the fact that, you know, Wilson's 14 points were just like shredded and thrown out. And, you know, London and Paris had no interest in an equitable peace. You know, people on both sides of the spectrum were political spectrum in the States were like, why the hell are we intervening this war? Like, this was a disaster. You know, like, World War I was about the most unpopular conflict in American history.

You know, I mean, like, people were outraged about it. So that's what I mean. So, O'Dra Noel asked was patent-wacked. Thomas has already talked about that. So you can actually scroll, you should be able to scroll back on that. One more before we get, one more before I had entropy. I want to read Irving, but his stuff is very pricey and out of print right now. Can you recommend any books that are comparable in print and affordable?

No, nothing's comparable, but you can read pretty much every book Irving ever wrote for free on his website. Oh, there you go. There you go. All right. Over to Entropy. Phil Barker asks, given how many generals were aware of the July 20th plot and said nothing, Do you think any commanders on the Eastern Front sabotaged their own offensives and adopted a defeatist mindset in order to tarnish AH's image and make the coup more palatable?

No, I don't think so for a few reasons. By 1994, the men you had commanding forces in the East were guys like Shorner. I mean, these guys were savage, okay, because they had to be. And anybody who was on the Eastern Front, I mean, aside in the fact that their survival and that of their men depended upon fighting, the reason the Germans fought so hard on the Eastern Front is because they knew what was going to happen, and they knew what did happen. You know, a red wave of barbarism descended on Europe, and they were slaughtering everybody and everything in their path. they were raping every female of death

between an age of 6 and 60 I mean this is not propaganda this stuff happened okay so all politics went out the window when you were fighting the Red Army you know to defend it for the halt that's the halt that's you know

advance of advance of slaughter abject slaughter towards them of the fatherland on the western front was a different story and a helder who went on to

you know be the NATO hot show you know who was Ramos Adjutant I think he was doing all kinds of strange things leading up to D-Day, okay, that don't really make sense. And I think he definitely, I think he was probably an OSS asset, too, okay? Was he part of the July 20 plot? I think he implicated Rommel to divert attention from himself. And so there you go.

But it's not an accident, in my opinion, what Herr Gering took notice of. Virtually every man involved in the July 20 plot was Catholic. and virtually none of them and served on the Eastern Front. Okay. I'm not saying to say bad things about Catholic people or something, but what I'm saying is that

they had very different loyalties than you know, your kind of typical national socials general who, and it made up before the true national socialist's heartland was, you know, the, was kind of the Protestant North.

And guys who cut their teeth and spent their the warriors fighting Ivan were not, they were not thinking about whacking the fur, even if they didn't like him. Okay, it was just not within their contemplation. And plus at that level,

at that level, it's different, something like curse or something like, or something, or something like the bag and four of the battles in, in Ukraine in 44, you know, like, as like, as, as, as, as the Red

Army counter-attacked. Again, dude, these formations were, like, fight. They were fighting desperate rear reaction to survive. You know, I mean, it's not, it'd be kind of hard to, like, pull the plug on something like that operationally without it being obvious, and it's like, what, how can they make the situation worse? You know, and it's, I made the point about Halter, because they're, like, I, I highly recommend not just David Irving's book, The Trail to Fox, but John Keegan has written a lot

about Normandy. He's a British historian. And he makes the point that there was strange things going on with the construction of the Atlantic Wall. And he just deliberate miscommunications between Berlin and between Rommel's headquarters and things. And yeah, I don't, Rommel didn't have anything to do with

the July 20 plot, but like I said, the reason why he was implicated is what I just said. But no, I don't, I don't think anybody plus to the, something that's, there's something that's mischaracterized, and this is a propaganda myth that started

in the 50s to try and like rehabilitate the Bundesphere when it being clear that like World War III might very well happen and we need the Western Army to fight it. This kind of myth came about of like the Vermont hated Eidolf Hitler but they just didn't know what else to do because it was too late. Your average

your average general or your average field marshal thought Hitler was great. Okay and I mean that they had a respect and reverence for him that was greater than like your average kind of you know, even your average man in uniform, you know, and for good reason, frankly, okay, this idea like everybody hated Hitler because he was this madman, like that's, that's freaking ridiculous.

And that's, that's Hollywood. That's literally Hollywood because that's, you know, they, um, they, uh, they, they, they, they, they, they, they played a big part confagulating that narrative for the reasons I just indicated. All right. Eric over on entropy has a question. He says, let's talk NATO, what crooked shit took place that made that take root. I can't find all.

the answers. There's gaps. What crooked shit? Let me know, Eric. Leave a comment and I'll come back to it. Marshal Forward asks, what are your thoughts on General Helmut wielding the commander of the Berlin Defense Force in the last days of the Reich? I like the way he was portrayed in in Deruntergang, Downfall. And I also like the way Monk was portrayed. You know, he was the Vof and SS commander. Weilding was a guy of the old guard. In good ways and bad.

I mean, he fought, if you want to talk about siege commanders versus Blitz Creek commanders, he organized very much like a siege defense of Berlin with what he had. Okay, he was definitely a game commander. I mean, he was a whole of the Knights Cross. you know he was a stud you know that and and in the film you know when he announces uh when he announces the surrender and then he collapses like that that actually happened you know like he had like a mild

heart attack he had collapsed you know like the the man was like at the end of his rope and i the fact that he held it together and uh and was able to maintain military discipline and and preside you know issue orders and preside over literally a fortress defense consisting of the city center of Berlin. I mean, that's remarkable. So I take my head off to him, man. I mean, there's a few men who can do that. All right.

Life Cry asks, is there any hard, irrefutable evidence of the National Socialist weaponizing rape during World War II other than victim testimonies, such as House of the Dolls? We know the Soviets did this because of the babies born from mass rape, but I've been unable to find evidence of the National Socialists committing these particular. particular atrocities. Have you ever hung around German people? Like, honestly, like, the guy posing the question. Can you really see a bunch of German, not just Germans, German army guys getting drunk, running around, raping women, acting like a bunch of monkeys?

Can you really see that? There's your answer. All right. Eric says, my understanding of the situation regarding the Brits during World War I, the Morgans bailed them out. The Fed paid it, so Americans ate the loss. Yeah.

Is that how you understand it? Yeah. Okay. Tunes says, really love this series. Thank you both for the content. I may be asking a lot, but can I ask for a cliff notes timeline of the Ukraine from the end of the war to 2014 revolution? He's asking basically about Ukraine at the end of World War II to the 2014, quote unquote, revolution but i mean there's not there's not really a story there i mean it's like ukraine

i don't want to go too far afield ukraine's not a real country and about a third of it's not ukrainian and it became this it became ukraine when cruciv decided to declare it ukraine like what was going on there what was going on there during the soviet days i same thing as any other soviet oblast okay or what kind of nominal like limited devolved uh independence like this idea that Ukrainians is placed with like this deep history like I'm not just saying that because I'm like down on Ukrainians like this literally doesn't make any sense you know you're not talking about a case like you know Poland when we're under the heel of the Warsaw Pact like this is this is like a made up identity based on made up grievances uh it's literally insane um if you want to look at the chicken Kiev speech was a totally idiotic like moniker but when Bush 41 H.W. Bush, he went to Ukraine and the intrigues were between, you know, like I said before in my own podcast, the intrigues were between Bush, Baker, Skokroft, and these guys, and their man Gorbachev, and these crazy neocons and these kinds of, these like Zionist types

who like back to Yelston. And they've been trying to stir up Ukraine and create some kind of disaster there for decades. Bush realized that. Bush went to Ukraine. in 91 and said, look, like, you're going to destroy your country if you take on this kind of deranged nationalist identity and decide that, you know, Moscow's your enemy. So, like, Boisich, of course, got shouted down by media, so, like, how dare he, you know,

tell the Ukrainians they can't pursue their freedom? You know, it's like, so this is, this is a sci-off that's been going on for ages. Like, why the Ukrainians simply go berserk? Like, you know, when, when somebody kind of confabulates this, like, Soros, free text for them to attack Moscow, who the hell knows? But, I mean, why did the Kurds do the same thing?

You know, that's another fake-ass identity. But there you go. You don't need to read about, like, decades of, you know, what was going on in Ukraine under Brezhnev. Just read about, you know, read about what happened in 91. Read about what happened. Gorbachev versus Yeltsin and, like, ask yourself, ask yourself, you know, ask yourself why this would be happening. And there you go. Rock Paladin asks

comparing Rommel to other German commanders Do you think he was overrated? Somewhat, yeah. Because he never He never ended up in these maelstrom engagements like the Demandius pocket and things, okay? I mean, he, when I mean the people like Ramos because he fought a quote clean war,

Like he was fighting, he was fighting the, I mean, he fought in Poland, you know, but his major commands were in the West, obviously, and in, and it went with the aggregate corps. You know, he was fighting Montgomery and the Tommies, and, you know, it was, it was like a, it wasn't, I mean, nor was a gentlemanly affair, but it was not, it was not the race war in the east, and nor is it, nor is it, these guys of desperate, late stage bloodbaths like, like happened at the bulge, okay? So, I mean, in terms of Rommel's book, Infantry Attacks, which basically is kind of one of the early, it's an early example of like a modern combined arms treaties. I mean, Romo was a brilliant guy and he understood combined arms in ways we take for granted. But then, I mean, this was evolving and developing thinking. And he was very much like a student of Unseeked. And, you know, I'm not a military man. So it's not so much for me to say.

but yeah, he is somewhat overrated, but I, like I said, Ferdinette Schorner, uh, uh, theater Ike, like guys like this are like my favorite Vermeck and Vof and his sister generals. Paul Hauser, but yeah, he's somewhat overrated due to romantic longings and things. Joe asks, do you think Borman escaped to South America? I know he didn't. His remains have been identified. He died in Berlin, uh, trying to escape under cover of night from, uh, the, uh, furor bunker. Okay. I had I had a question. So when I'm pretty sure that you said that

Garing didn't agree with with the furor on Operation Barbarossa. Yeah. Why? Why do you why? garing was limited in his strategic uh in his attitude for for broad strategic concepts he just was okay and um frankly i think a lot of uh i think a lot of air force commanders are um that's basically why uh garing late stage before barbarosa basically when um when the plan had already been approved and it was just a matter of ticking down the clock until the forces were constituted. Gehring had visited the Soviet Union back when there was reasonably good offices

between, I mean, however contrived this was, between Moscow and Berlin. You know, and Berlin, you know, incident to his role as, you know, head of the air ministry. He did a lot of this, you know, he did a lot of this kind of military diplomacy of, you know,

going to visit, you know, Soviet facilities and inviting their people to visit Lufov facilities, you know, he visited these factories there in proximity to the Urals, and he realized, like, one Soviet aircraft factory. It could outproduce all German aircraft factories combined, and they had about four of these facilities. You know, so Garing's like, you know, we're never going to win an attrition war with these people, but Garing's blind spot was, yeah, you don't fight an attrition war with anybody in the modern age, okay?

You knock the Soviet Union out in weeks. It was not German hubris or whatever, like people's. say. You know, you don't plan to fight wars for years. You don't say, like, you know, we're going to, we're going to get our strategic reserves in order. We're going to equip our, we're going to equip the very much of winter gear because we're going to get into a quagmire. You know, we're going to fight, you know, we're going to fight on the step for years. You don't do that. Um, warsbury pass fail. You either, you either kick the enemy's ass and you knock him the fuck out, uh, literally, like immediately, or you've got a problem, you know, and then you, and then you're forced to kind of utilize. You know, and then you're forced to kind of utilize. the military situation as a political bargaining mechanism, which is paralogical. That's what happens. That was Garing's thinking. And like I said, I don't see why he'd lie about that. Actually, he was facing the gallows.

Garing didn't try and mitigate his culpability in any other way. I think it was a gap in a strategic thinking. But that's what shook him up, was the productive capabilities of a of a of a of a of a of a of a of a of a of a of a of a aircrafts production uh centers so like so dedicated so purposed that that's why um death says thanks thank you to both of us you say he's waiting for his flight so no right thank you for participating yeah so um got another one over on entropy carter asks i would love to see thomas come back to talk

about how collaborationists were persecuted and maligned after the war. Can you say anything about the legitimacy of the Patain and Quisling regimes? I mean, they were both legitimate. What I, France was defeated by Germany in a war that they declared. They signed the surrender instrument uh hitler agreed france wouldn't be occupied and it wasn't i mean until uh until the until the security situation big and critical and europe was literally under constant assault from the air i mean if when you lose a war like what what was fran's supposed to do like like like shake their fist in the year every day like they're supposed to commit suicide like you know by strapping on uh explosives like a bunch of hamas drones and like charging german barracks like what

Patain was a man who was trusted. He was a man who who'd been in uniform his whole life. He was a national hero. He spoke rudimentary German. You know, he knew how to negotiate with the Germans. That was the government of France. Like, what, again, I mean, what's the alter...

I mean, Patain had a far more legitimacy than DeGall did. DeGall was some, like, random guy who declared that, like, he should be the king of France, basically, in secular terms. and he was essentially able to raise an army about half mercenaries and a half, like, you know, partisans and get Britain and America, you know, give him a lot of, a lot of military swag and a lot of money. So that's legitimate, but, you know, Patain isn't, the French considered Patain to be the, you know, the president of France. Like, apparently he was. So Carr says Thomas has said that war is bad for money interests

But is there an example of a country winning a war While its elites end up monetarily worse off Thank you for the series Yeah you heard of the United Kingdom That was What did they do? They ended up trading they ended up trading Empire for Gibbs.

Yeah, yeah. The higher becoming Airs Troop 1. Marshall Forward, it says, is it true that no one was allowed to smoke around AH? No. You can't, you can't, you can't command, you can't spend your days around military officers and be like, well, you can't smoke around me.

That sounds like what we're saying too. and they say like, you know, they act like, they act like the furor was like, was, some like autistic, like, tight ass. The guy was, the guy was an Austrian German, okay? So the suggestion was like, oh, he hated meat and hated alcohol. It's like, the guy wasn't Woody Allen. He was like a dude who was like, he didn't drink because he thought it made people lose control and he had a bad stomach.

And you'll notice he did drink appertiefs and drink schnops after meals. He drank beer when he met with Gustav Manorheim. he'd get on Ava Braun's case about smoking so that women shouldn't smoke because in Europe in the old days it was considered like uncouth for women to smoke okay like it was seen like it was like wearing a short skirt

Oh you needed a campaign in this country a propaganda campaign by Bernays in order to get with in order for it to make it okay for women to smoke what do they call them freedom sticks or freedom torture Right freedom tortures yeah yeah Yeah. So, I mean, it's like, you know, and it's also the, you know, Hitler had a lot of health problems. You know, it didn't help that he'd been hitting a gas attack, you know, during his service in the war. But he, you know, he had all these, like, digestive problems. And I don't, I understand. I've got digestive problems, too, okay, like one of my rheumoid stuff. Eating, like, heavy red meat and drinking alcohol is not something you want to do if you got those issues. It's just not, okay?

And, I mean, that's, Hitler was not this guy. He went on proselyatat. He wasn't like some, he wasn't some, like, freaking Gen X vegan or something.

You know, and he wasn't, and he wasn't some, like, teetoteling weiro. You know, he was like a dude who, like, he,

he was, he was, he was looking for, like, ways to mitigate that. You know, uh, he didn't like women smoking,

you know, uh, because no, like, nobody, like, of kind of his class and station did, you know,

in those days. I mean, that's, yeah, all this stuff's overstated. It's like, you know, by kind of pop psychologists. So, yeah, that's the deal. So when I interviewed E. Michael Jones about Wymar, he mentioned that, and I have to question this from the stuff that I've been reading. He said that the money supply was inflated on purpose to pay off the debt. I'm, it, that would seem like something that would happen quickly. It was something that would happen all at once, get it done, boom.

But from the books that I've been reading, it looks like the supply was inflated over time. Yeah. It wasn't for that purpose. No. And I mean, they played fast and loose with, I mean, governments play fast and loose with interest rates in order to, in order to manage public debt, like, one way or the other. I mean, that always happens. But it's not. Jones is one of these guys who's like big anti, quote unquote fiat money.

I mean, I like you, Michael Jones. I'm not saying bad things about him, but it's not, he's got conceptual biases and we talk about economics and the Vimer situation, we'd have to get into a whole, if people want to do a dedicated Q&A or podcast about national social economics, about early 20th century economics, about Vimer hyperinflation, frankly, I'd need to like brush up on some academic sources and I need to do like a dedicated episode of that. It's too complicated just to say like bam, bam, here's why this, here's why that. Why did Weimar currency become literally like as worthless as firewood kindling? It was a combination of a it was a combination of the

stranglehold reparations regime, the stripping of productive capital, the, the regime, you know, playing fast and loose, not just with interest rates. But with, you know, but with these kinds of garbage financial instruments that were essentially borrowing against what they claim was future prosperity, but that, you know, we're actually like, we're actually like, you know, junk. I mean, stuff like that. It's complicated. But, yeah, it's not just, it's not just because there was, you know, it's not just because there was, like, hyper money production to, you know, to pay off the, the reparations regime. But, I mean, that was part of it. The reparations received definitely was like approximate cause, but it wasn't just like fiat money printing.

So I just want to let everyone know if you want to jump to the front of the line for asking questions, hit the link that's pinned in the chat over on entropy and drop a super chat over there or drop one on YouTube like TB88 just did. why have there not been more investigations into war policy like the Nye Committee? Because this country is full of literally insane people. Like America just blew up the

Nord Stream pipeline and like Americans like don't care. They're like, oh yeah, Russia did it. And that's why because people are, they're literally a bunch of coolies in this country. Well, I mean, it's like, why is it like the woke left? Why do they go berserk if you criticize the fact that Washington is like killing a bunch

of people for no reason in Syria? Like, there's the people who claim they're into, like, social justice. It's like, you know, but they're, they're literally, like, mentally, uh, they're, like, mentally disabled people or something. Like, that's why, you know, so if you got a body politic who, like, literally will, we'll accept anything, like, why would they care, you know? And that's one of the, um, apparently, I, this is incredible to me, but, like, apparently, um, people like James Webb were right. Once you remove the draft, like Americans simply, no matter what, no matter what Washington does, no matter how insane, no matter how immoral, like no matter how just irrationally self-defeating a policy is, like as long as people aren't being drafted and put in harm's way against their will, like the Americans just don't care. They'll just tolerate anything, apparently. Why, why, how can when Bush 43 literally suborded perjury to procure a war mandate and like nobody cares?

But then they're like, but then like these rage cases will demand that like Trump be indicted for no reason. But like supporting perjury to procure war mandate is a-okay, but like Donald Trump must go to prison. Like that you tell me why that is because these people are insane. They're literally insane. So Eric who asked the NATO question earlier said, basically he's saying NATO made member states in Europe nothing more than vassals to the U.S. look at vassals to the U.S. look at recent events. How would

how would they agree to that? How would Congress agree that? Because because you got to understand that like NATO post-1989 makes no sense. Like NATO pre-1989 makes perfect sense. That's why. Because NATO had no raise on debt for it after 1989, yet it continued to exist. So it just became this fiction. It became a legal fiction such as international law to be said to exist.

for unilateral American military action and as well as a pretext for America violating the sovereign borders of European states like NATO doesn't actually exist as like an alliance like if it does I mean you realize that you realize that the only other combat capable member state other than America is Turkey

and American Turkey are periodically at war with each other by proxy so according to the NATO charter there's America obligated to attack itself because Turkey is a member state like that's why it's ridiculous to talk about NATO there's no such thing as NATO that's like that's that's the

that's an area's alibi for uh for for occupying Europe and for attacking and for attacking we're leading this crusade against the Russian Federation Rock Paladin said was FDR more absolute

than Stalin or AH? Then Stalin, no way. Then the furor it was about comparable Stalin was probably The most powerful man who was ever lived And I mean people say like no That was like Julius Caesar

Julius Caesar didn't have the atomic bomb It was Stalin Marshall Forward asks Totenkov Best military division in all World War II I mean I would say so Them are gross Deutschland I would say

I mean Leipstandard was the pride of the Vof and SS Um Totenkov was There's like this grim mystique around them Because not only did they exclusively fight in the east But I mean they were in the worst Like of the worst

battle spaces You know I mean They were the hardest Yeah They took it on the chin literally the worst that the communists had, you know, um,

but most people most people would say that that like the best German formation was uh, was gross Deutschland. Um, most uh, and people say like the best Vof and SS formation was like first SS Leap Standard.

I mean, which is why it like literally bore like the Fuhrer's name. But yeah, I I got a, I got a, I got a soft spot for Toten co-op. You know, that's why like, that's why I like a very much like Totenkov. off, like, clothes, you know, like, I got, I got, like, a Tonekopf sweatshirt. I got, like, a, I got, like, a hoodie, like, uh, and a bunch of other stuff.

I mean, it's not, it's not a weirdo. I mean, I, I, I, I, I got a special passion for Tonegoth. And instead of the Seagroons, uh, on their collar, they had the Totencough, you know, like, they're, they're, they're, they're just, like, grim motherfuckers. You know, like, like, like, like, when, like, when those guys show up, it's like, I, it's, I can see the, I can see the, I can see the rest of the Vermock being, like, you know, like, I like it when, I like it when Toinkoff has our back, but I don't know about those guys, man. Like, they're just sick.

Blaze 2019 asks, what do they, we know who they is, have against the Slavic people and our people in general. I don't get it. Really? Like, you don't know, like, what's between them and Slavs? I mean, I don't know. Read about history of Poland. Read about history of Russia. like read about

Cossacks and like how they had a certain ethnic so it's ethnocentric minority get along I mean it Poland was Poland Poland uh Poland Ukraine that that's like that's the heartland of the people you're talking about

okay like in Europe and there's a very tragic history there um Hana Arendt who people think it's weird when I cite her because obviously you know people think she's like this big Jewish liberal like she really wasn't you know and she and he had to grow very tight for a reason like when she wrote the origins of totalitarianism that books more about the soviet system and its origins than it is

about the german rike but a goodly portion of it is like about relations between the askinasa and like the tsarist russians and it's a very very pathological history i mean that all i can say is like read about that there's no there's no there's no there's no there's no people more at loggerheads than the tribe and the Eastern Slavs. Like, it's not even close. That's why. You know why generally, like, there's that disposition of the tribe. I agree with E. Michael Jones and the book he wrote about it.

But I don't really want to get into that here because it's not on topic. And I don't want to upset the YouTube censors. Yeah. Thank you. Eric says the NS pipeline. It was reported that German. Germany was in talks with Russia about getting natural gas. It had to go away.

Vassal states, I completely agree. NATO is a fictional thing. No one would agree to that. The Nord Stream pipeline he's talking about. Well, what happened, Merkel was, she'd been a, she'd been a Stasi asset. I mean, she was raised in the DDR. Her big, her big kind of policy coup was creating this interdependence between Germany and the Russian Federation. and she did it in a very Machiavillian way, which I support.

I'm not saying bad things on Murgleur. Her big point, the reason she took, she made a big thing about taking Germany non-nuclear, and that was the pretext for the gas prom deal, and that's what, like, created this interdependence, which was a great thing. And, yeah, that's another, that's not the sole proximate cause or anything, but that's another reason why, for the crusade against Russia, is that decopal Russia from Europe. I mean, that's why this, that's why this, that's why this, slob is in uh is you know uh replaced

uh frau merkle in berlin he's just like you know this uh he's just this this stooge of the american occupation regime and um he's there to fracture uh uh you know that interdependence between um berlin and moscow it's somebody just blow up the pipeline like i know everybody thinks america's like got it shit together and it's 10 feet tall all right i'm old enough to remember when america did him it's shit together um i mean things were bad in like policy terms but it wasn't like literally run by buffoons and it didn't just do on the nose idiotic things like like attacking europe's uh like carry out terrorist attacks on russia's uh energy infrastructure i mean if you're resorting to that you're

i don't even know what to say about that uh it's it's it's unbelievable but um but yeah that's that's uh that was that was merkle's big uh policy coup so john live last way up here about the all the rumors that came out about AH's sexuality. But who were promoting these rumors? OSS, like some crazy

Zionist, like psychiatrist who claims everybody's gay, like what? I, that's the equivalent like getting on 4chan and saying like, yeah, I heard that, you know, Joe Biden like, you know, like sucks dogs' dicks. Like, you know, I think that's true, is it? Like, Hitler

always had a girlfriend. I mean, he never married, but he, the weirdest thing you'd say about him is he and his niece had a weird dynamic, but it's, I mean, was that a sexual relationship? Who the hell knows? I mean, but it, why, why were certain, why were a certain category of people who put out this stuff so interested in people's sexuality? And, like, who is the incentive to, like, dig deep in this? You know, like, I don't, I, you know, it's, you know, it's, the people who are sexually weird and perverted are people like the Bightens. It's not, I mean, and it is people like who, uh, who Mr. Roosevelt shrouded himself with. Like, you know, people like the furor, like are basically normal in those regards like most people are.

Oh, I wanted to go back to, um, Ukraine. so it seems like the that campaign why did that campaign take so long what why was that a really hard campaign it looks like we're 41 to 42 I mean initially what happened was the initially uh the the the very much of office and SS they were moving so fast that uh the armor was the overshooting inventory and um supporting elements were to literally run to catch up because they were overextending themselves because they were smashing through uh they kept smashing the the army's mainline of resistance which then would reconstitute then get smashed again um as uh after the after the assault on uh after the assault on moscow failed what happened was um

that's when the behind the lines partisan action began in earnest so what happened in ukraine then was a lot of these really kind of awful this kind of awful categorical violence you know, owing to the fact that a very kind of asymmetrical war sit in, you know, and Ukraine is like this, it's literally like this vast step, you know, like what we're seeing in this footage from the battle space there, it's just, it's just like, it looks like the folded gap, but it's like a thousand miles across, you know, so that just kind of lends itself to, to bodies being dropped and high casualty rates. But then after, after, you know, after, after, after, after, after, after, after, after, after, after, after,

Ersk, you know, when the long retreat began, when the long permanent retreat began, you know, because Kyrgyz was the last time the Vermacht was on the offensive in the east. You know, Ukraine is, you know, Europe is basically indefensible. It doesn't have, it doesn't have natural defensive borders. And Germany was trying to hold, they were trying to hold the Red Army in Ukraine as long as they could as part part of us ukraine is free and huge uh part of it is like what i said it just lends itself these kinds of like as so far as we can have like set pitched set piece battles um in the 20th century they occur in places like ukraine or would have occurred like

at the fold of gap um and uh also uh you know the the the germans would desperately try at all at all cost to stop the red army advance and uh once uh Germany has no defense. Germany's got no ability to defend in depth and once Ukraine falls. You know, because then, like, you're just fighting a desperate action in Poland, you know, until as the enemy, like, approaches, you know, the Oder River. I mean, so that's why, you know, like,

that's what you stop Ivan or he's not going to be stopped. Plus, like I said, it's just huge. What evidence, what real evidence is there that at Vancey, the quote-unquote final solution, a term that was used by different countries for different things was what everybody claims it was. The onus is on them to make the claim.

Prove the claim. I don't have to disprove other people's claims. I don't believe in world conspiracies of racist to exterminate entire populations off the face of the earth, particularly when the Germans over 100,000 men of that background or serving in that very much

you had field marshals of that background that doesn't make any sense and on his face it doesn't make any sense either so I don't you know it's like I put in the same category

as people saying like it's like somebody said to me like whatever it's you have that like the Illuminati don't run the world well that's crazy it doesn't make any sense and the person who's claiming they do

they're the one of the burden of proof I don't, or the proof. Yeah. Maximum Weeb. Thanks for the super chat. Thanks for having Thomas 777 on. Steel Storm on my shelf. Hope to read soon.

I love cyberpunk. Keep telling the truth. Future of our civilization depends on it. Also, just rewatch Tropic Thunder. Hurt myself laughing. Yeah, it was pretty funny. It's what I've seen of it. I haven't seen it in total, but like, yeah, yeah.

It's ridiculous. It's completely insane. Yeah. We got a couple over on entropy. Eric, Eric has some advice for us. He says, listen, Pete Thomas, let's talk about those spike protein tities. That shit is poison. Okay, it's a real threat.

Don't put that shit in your mouth. Thanks, Eric. I don't know what that means, but okay. I have a feeling. I know what it means, but it's still. hilarious. Takar says, do you think the gay control in Europe is stable? What do you think are the primary threats to it? It's not all stable. The primary threats are and were, I mean, look at what Ms. Merkel did. Ms. Merkel went native. I mean, it, Merle was in a bad position. And yeah,

I know the, I know the nonsense with, you know, her throwing open the doors to 100,000 refugees as inexcusable. But as far as the occupation regime goes, she was the most independent chancellor since Helmut Cole, you know, who up and immediately recognized the independence of Croatia under Tugeman, which completely monkey-wrenched, you know, the West's and America's plan for the post-Soviet order. Okay. So the fact that the fact that Merkel and Putin actually got this done, and there's nothing America could do, about it until finally, you know, this this this this this this is this duttering pervert in the White House, you know, they, uh, they, they were able to, you know, get his, get his shaky

hand to paper as it were to approve this terrorist attack on the infrastructure resulting from the contract between Putin and Merkel. I mean, there you go. Um, that means that that Merle is not some outlier, okay? Like, you know, and, uh, and, and, and, and even smart women, like Merkel, they, they tend to not really make waves. You know, the fact, like, a lady like Merkel is like saying like look like enough is enough we're not you know we're we're we're not we're not going to like you know we're not going to count out to the point that we're just going to like sacrifice our future by like treating russia as an enemy like because this kind of increasingly senile Zionist regime in Washington demands it so i mean if if merkel's thinking that way and

doing this like you better believe like younger people and younger men like are definitely i mean that's that's a huge threat man you know and it's uh it's uh you know plus it's also like i said like i this uh no nobody is enthusiastic about the prospect of treating russia like an enemy except poland and like the poles are crazy you know like so you know the uh the like what's i mean america can indefinitely bleed russia and ukraine but it's like okay at the end of the day like that they're going to destroy ukraine and it's it's you know at some point uh you're the europeans are going to start refusing their the bear the burden of

of you know failing energy infrastructure and ruined economies you know that's that's where you're at with it said Brian Boru just commented there's an Irish comedian named Gabriel Rosen stock just one thing

it is clearly died in Berlin why do people keep saying this remains have been identified and Borman was the guy was the guy was a bureaucrat he's not he was not this freaking man of mystery He, you know, what the hell is he doing in South America? It doesn't even make any sense.

He's dead. He'll deal with it. Elvis is dead. Borman is dead. Okay, they're not alive. He died in Berlin. He was a fed bureaucrat. I'm sorry that makes you sad.

He's dead. All right. Sorry. Go ahead. That's okay. Says there's an Irish comedian named Gabriel Rosenstock, whose grandfather was a tribe member who fought with the Vermacht. I got a question, a couple questions over here.

Darth Kilhoun says, What's your take on the relationship between the Hohen-Zollerns and the mid-century German regime? I know Wilhelm the second didn't trust A.H., but Cron Prince, Wilhelm seemed to be warmer to the regime. Yeah, well, so it went both ways. The fear denied the Kaiser State funeral. You know, and he, the only thing he got from the Reich was when, when war came to the Benelux states, there was some Vof and SS guards were posted to Wilhelm's home, you know, to make sure, like, it's kind of like a token measure. I mean, nobody's going to harm anyway, but it, you know, it would have been unseemly to do absolutely nothing in terms of, you know, providing for his physical security, at least, and for appearance sake. But, uh, Wilhelm was, uh, was, was, was, was, was not an attractive guy. Um, you know, and he, uh, he really, uh, he really in a lot of ways, uh, the real, the real kind of tragic and heroic guy on the German side was Holveig. You know, I mean, I, and, uh, he, I mean, he's the guy who it's, I mean, the Kaiser was, you know, obviously the ultimate sovereign authority. I mean, it was his decision to go to war or not. Um, but I mean, it was Holveg, it was,

who was managing the politics of the thing. And, you know, it was Holveig who was desperately trying to afford the brakes on it. When, uh, when Paris, uh, withdrew from, you know, negotiations done on the eve of battle in 1914, you know, there's a reason why, like, Villalum was, like, remembered of such hostility, you know, it wasn't just, uh, and I think, uh, you know, in terms of, uh, you know, Devon, the, the, it wasn't just, uh, the Von Richthoff and family. It was, you know, there's a lot of lesser nobility who had great relations with, with the, with the German Reich and with the party. I, yeah, I think, you know, I mean, yeah, I realized the Hornzorzorns were a lot more high profile than, than these lesser nobles.

But I, yeah, Wilhelm, Kaiser Wilhelm was an outlier and just kind of a, just kind of a crummy guy. And politically really just kind of illiterate, man. And, like, he, I'm always coming back to the, to the, uh, to the, uh, the, the, uh, the Kruger telegram. I mean, don't have been wrong. Like, I, I, I, it, Germany should have stood with Kruger and the Boers, but there's a, there's a right way in a wrong way to do that. And, like, rubbing it in King George's face, you know, like, when, when his, when his, when his, when his, when his, when his, when his, when his, when his, when his, when he's killed by Borrellas and public, that's not, that's not, that's not the way you do things. If you're the, of the, of the, of the German

empire. I mean, yeah. Maximum we've said would love to see you to talk to I can never I never know how to pronounce his name Robert Sefer I'm subscribed to his YouTube channel I watched a bunch of his videos great based YouTube channel suppressed history esoteric band videos wrote wrote a book called 1666 redemption through sin about Sabatian Frank is very eye-opening also good on World War II and the Bolsheviks yeah he's been really good on ever since this whole Um, ever since February 24th, he's been good on that situation as well. I mean, I'll deep dive. I've seen his stuff before. And it, yeah, it seems, it seems serious. I'll deep dive into his stuff more. Like, I've been, my long form other than the Steelstorm book I just wrote in, uh, um, and I'm substate. The reason why it's pretty much this podcast now. Like, I'm, I'm writing this Nuremberg book as we speak. And that it takes up pretty much all my long form time. And, uh, pretty much everything I'm reading. It's either current event. stuff like relating to the strategic situation or it's like stuff relating to the book I'm writing. So if I seem like out of a loop with certain content creators and stuff like that's why. I'm not just turning into like an old guy who's like just kind of like mired in his own

fixations. I mean, I'm sure I'm that too, but that's not what's happening. Elo now over on entropy asks, could the destruction of the Nord Stream pipeline be seen as the realization of the Morgenthau plan goals of German deindustrialization, massive cuts and German industrial output are already happening. Yeah, that's part of it. I mean, that's the ongoing ethos, is that, you know, the hell with Germany, what hurts it is good,

you know, in so far as it doesn't compromise what the regime needs it for. And obviously, you know, the Cold War dynamic it forced the brakes to be put on some of the stuff. I mean, albeit not because people cared about Germany or anything,

but because you know, the Bundes Republic and the Bundes fair had to quite literally, whether that was the main line of resistance against the Warsaw picked. Takar asks, what do you think of mid-century expat communities like in Argentina? Are they producing revisionist works or laying low? It's interesting because that community, particularly in Argentina and Chile, in the Cold War, you know, there was a lot of symmetry in the, Latin America for the Axis. I mean, that

culturally, that goes way back. I mean, you know, it's today, even the Chilean army, like, looks like the Vermatheumach. You know, they wear stalemps, you know, their great coats look like Vermont, great codes. They drill like the Vermathehrmacht. And, uh, uh, Johann Von Lears, who I've got a lot of esteem for, you know,

he ended up converting to Islam and, and kind of, uh, situating himself in the court, in Nassar's court in Egypt. But Von Lear's published a magazine called Derveg. And, uh, Derveg, uh, Derveig is primary, and it was German expats, you read it, as well as, you know, national socialists who were, you know, carrying the torch. And Derveg, at least, most of its readership was, you know, on the cone of South America.

I haven't been to South America. And there's a ton of German and German-speaking people on my platforms, which is dope. I mean, they're about my favorite people around. But not many of them are from Latin America. I don't know a lot about that community other than what I can tell you, like I said, about what was going on during the Cold War years, what was going on with people like Von Leer's

and Hans Rudel, who became very tight with with Peron. You know, these guys were very high profile down there. And, yeah, like I said, I was researching Von Lear's not just because I think he had important

ideas on the process of historical dialect and he was an orientalist who knew a great deal about Islam, but he I was researching him for some of some things I'm writing and I said I'm coming across, Deer Vague and I'm like, oh, what is this? And there you go. So,

yeah, they, there's a lot of Croats there too. Like it's, you know, that's why Ante Pavlovich, you know, found his way there after the war. So it's and there's a fair amount of Japanese, like in Peru, like it's, and Italians, it's a Hous. Who's who of the ex, his powers?

Yeah. Okay, Trouble Armstrong. You said on Jay Burden this week, American society is pointless and then referred to life in the 1940s as the opposite. Is that not the core issue? We live politically socially without honor in 2022. Yes. Yeah. All right. Fat Chip Monk.

Thanks, Pete and Thomas. This series has been great. Hope to see you guys continue to. Hope to see you guys continue to collaborate on content. J-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-E-L-E-L-8-7 says, Pete, you should do a reading on the Jewish Revolutionary Spirit by EMJ. Yeah, a 1,500-page reading on the podcast. That's probably going to take a while.

Yeah. Blaze, 2019, asked for a book recommendation on why the tribe went to war with the czar. God bless, thank you. I mean, it's, again, too, you're like asking, why do any people have enmity between each other? You've got to know, not everything is in a book, man. It's like, okay, you know what this population is like, okay? You understand they're kind of, you understand their kind of moral particularism, you know, in-group versus out-group.

You know what Russians are like? Okay, you know what Russian society was like, especially, you know, in the 19th century. You know, you have these populations living together. You know the tragic history there. Okay. There you go. Well, and...

There's not like the big book of like why Russians and these people don't get along, you know, in like 300 pages or something. Like that... Somebody asked me, well, why in 1917 after the October Revolution, why did Lenin take over and why didn't Trotsky? Why didn't Bronstein? It's like 12 years before they had like a pogrom.

Yeah. Lenin wasn't just some guy. Like Lenin, even the Fuhrer acknowledged, like Lenin was about like the greatest he was about the greatest tactical political genius whoever lived like at least out of that point. Like in terms of

revolutionary organization. Like Moscow that was probably the place on this planet like least likely for like a bullshrek revolution to be successful and like Lenin did it okay I mean like we're not just talking about like this random guy you know um plus Trotsky Trotsky you know Trotsky failed in 1920, 21 like he got he got stopping his tracks by Marshall Pissolski in Poland like Trotsky was a failure in a lot of ways there's like a failed military commander it was like a failed uh he was like a failed writer you know it's like why I'm not gonna follow that guy in combat i'm gonna still with lenin you know that that's why and yeah

your point too it's like um plus people saw what happened with bella coon and saw what happened with uh with uh with the with the munich soviet i mean it's like they you've got a it's like okay when the checka is already is like you know like fully like half of it is uh is people uh outside of the ethnic majority you know who are out kind of enforcing all these all this violence you know like you there's not a good look okay i mean yeah i said to your point too you needed a guy who was at least passably like you know native but also like i said lenin was uh it's like saying like why was castro like why why why why why would castor become boss and not you know like one of these one of these uh one of these field commanders he had who you know was leading the

people against patis because because castor was the man you know he like did something that should not have been possible that's why i mean why was mohammed mohammed and not some other just like random guy. Because Mohammed wasn't a random guy. You know, right. Yeah. And yeah. And also, as soon as they took over, they knew that

they needed to keep it in Russia. And Trotsky was an internationalist. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. So, Maximum Weave says, PDF link in chat would love to send you to copy

of Sun and Steel by Yukio Mishima. it's taken me 18 months to read 80 page an 80 page essay speaks to my soul and hopefully to you too by the way mashima wrote 1968 play my friend h and played and played a yeah i know both them on my bookshould it's a it's a strange play i like it but it's uh it's very japanese and it's takes on uh i i i i i i people pan it shouldn't be panned it's actually one of my i i i i like plays a lot, which people might think is weird, but I'll explain why at some time when it's more topically appropriate. But I like that play. But the dialogue between Rom and between

the furor, like it's not, it's, it's the way like a Japanese is going to imagine Germans relating. So that's my only, that's my only issue with it. But yeah, I like it. Well, if you want to send me a PDF, TPQS, the initials for the Pekino show at p.m.com. sure to pass it along to Thomas as well. Marshall Forward, stupid, says stupid question, but I got to ask after seeing the incredible artwork for Steelstorm Volume 2,

would you ever consider adapting it into a graphic novel? It's timely that you say that. There's going to be five Steelstorm volumes, and I want to make one of them a graphic novel if there's adequate interest. And I was talking to my illustrator, as well as my dear friend, Mike, and Imperium Press, as well

just some other people who on my kind of production team and guys, you know, like comrades who I create kind of with. And everybody seems excited about it and enthused. So, yeah, I very much want to make one of the volumes of a graphic novel. Like moving forward, I mean, if that's received really well, I'd consider adapting, you know, the entirety of it into like a big grabbing novel. But I'm thinking, I'm thinking volume four is probably going to be it for for the, it's just going to be released as a

graving novel. I got to focus on this Nuremberg book and some other stuff that I'm working on right now, like the YouTube channel and stuff. So like Steelstorm 3, like realistically it's going to be like a year or a year and a half before like it comes out. And then after that

like you know, it'll like six months subsequent like four will come out like five but there's going to be a break of Steel Storm like after this after volume two drops. But yeah, thanks for raising that. And yeah, I that's helpful I don't just appreciate your complimentary words about the brand

but that's very much on my mind and it's something I want to pursue so thank you guy somebody we both know lady of shallot says yeah he's great yeah what does Thomas think of Solzhenyson I love his work

he was a red army soldier who came to despise the Soviets and returned to the Orthodox Church he's an interesting guy And he, I really like a day in the life of Ivan Denisovic, you know, which is like his Goulag memoir. It gives you a sense of how bad these like Soviet concentration camps were. But he also, his address to Harvard in the 70s, where he really just kind of excoriated America for being culturally, you know, totally degenerate. And that made a bunch of people mad because they wanted him to basically be a typical like Soviet expat and see like, you know, America is just great.

You know, like, and you can do no wrong. So he was a balzy guy. And he had a lot of insight. He was very honest about Russia. He was very critical of the Tsarist regime precedent as well as the Russian culture generally. He wasn't one of these guys who acted like Russia's great and his communism, you know, derailed us.

And he made the point, too, it was not accidental that Russia entered the modern world through communism and that there's something pathological in there. But I don't relate strongly to Russian stuff. not because I look down on it or Russian people or something but I never was really into Russian stuff

I'm just not as much as I'm an Orientalist I find I find Islamic stuff compelling you know particularly particularly the kind of whole mythology around Shia Islam and things I don't want to get too deep into that because it's not topically appropriate here but I just don't really get into Russian stuff

but I find Solzhenitsyn, yeah, he was a, he loved his people, and he was a real patriot and a real man of the right, and the right kind of Christian. I mean, orthodoxy is a lot different than my confessional heritage, but, you know, like a man who is inspired to follow Christ, you know, is like my brother in Christ, so I, you know, and Solzhenyson was, was whatever, whatever shortcomings I might identify in his relationship to the faith. He definitely lived a Christian life, and that's really laudable, and he was a real man, you know, a very hard guy. Cynical skeptic asks, and I'm assuming he's Croat, because he paid in RSD. That's awesome. Thomas, have you read Corzio Malaparte's report from World War II, Croatia's A Basket of Oysters? No, but I'm familiar with it. I'm going to jump over to entropy right now.

Big brain content says, Good morning, sirs. I regret to inform Mr. 777 that he has made a grave mistake while M-81 is nice. The greatest pattern is Serbian karst pattern. Thank you. That stuff is cool. Serbs have some of the best uniforms, man.

Like even the Chetnik uniforms from what the Croat is called a Homeland War. Like, they're just like cool. And they were different than, I mean, I realized you go Slavia, like, And they, you know, they weren't, like, they had their own convention that was deliberately different than Warsaw Pact. But even the Yugoslav Army stuff was very, very cool.

And, yeah, I agree with you. But I am not a Chetnik. I'm a peckerwood in the fine city of Chicago. So I like M81 urban camo, man. And I'm going to stick to that. And that's what I'm going to be wearing this winter. So Kar asks, what group of readers are you most? excited about for your Nuremberg book

That's a good question I Basically people who Have You know who Who aren't don't consider themselves to be you know revisionist But you know

Have a critical eye of Of what court history proposes And uh want to learn more about the subjects Who are thirsty for you know The truth I suppose because then I that's part of my purpose in writing this revisionist copy is is it's not just for posterity's sake um which is you know the historian's vocation but also you know to reach people politically with our message yeah stash house says no love for rhodesian rhodesian brush stroke

camo there's a lot of like cool camouflage man like i'm a cold war kid okay and like when urban camo dropped i'm like that's fucking cool as hell talking to like 1986 okay. It's like I come off like a weirdo if like I was walking around, whatever how cool and like a winter jacket that had a really weird pattern and people were like, hey, what is

that? And I'm like, well actually it's like Bulgarian ZY-471 Camel that was used for 30 days, you know, in 1972. Like I, there's a lot of cool fucking camel, but I'm not an autist. I'm a dude who just likes fucking Urban Camel from the 80s. Oh man. the um so what do we got here what do we got here

okay here though tiger camel from nom that only only special operations forces got that is dope but it doesn't look as stylish so i'm not that's so there okay that's my second favorite so michael t asked me am i supposed to be in a prison cell with this background and blue chevron shirt actually i didn't think of that but yeah yeah yeah i hope you're okay man hopefully

yeah there's a really reason for this background and for some of the clothes I wear, actually. Oh, so we got here. It was Lady Ashlaught said, I think, she said, I think Solzhenycin covered that, but there were, there a bit others. As many regime toadies did end up in gulags every time Stalin had a purge due to his paranoia. Yeah, so I guess we're still talking about Solzhenius. They're arguing in the comments about Solzgenyzen.

No, that's fine. Fine. Yeah. I always don't even be participating. They can talk about whatever they want amongst themselves. I'm not that interesting, frankly. You're not that what? I'm not that interesting, frankly.

Oh. Yeah, so that's all the East and warning to the West. Yeah, thank you. I'm 75. That's it. Is it, um, so, what's a question?

I wanted. And I lost. I lost it now. I lost my question. Don't get old people. Don't get old. See if we ever here. Does Soviets detain American bombardiers in the Pacific? Did Soviets detain American bombardiers in Pacific? It's entirely possible. Yeah, I mean, categorically no, but like, did it happen? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it did. So let me ask you. I remember my question. When was the war over for Germany? in 1941 is when

that's what decided the war in the east. And Germany's only path to victory was the defeat of the Soviet Union. Could the best that Germans was going to hope for subsequent was establishing some kind of peace line

with the Soviet Union and then just preparing for war with a miracle later. And John Tolland, interestingly, in his biography of the Fuhr, got into the a bit, um, as an aside, but, um, in terms of, uh, uh, uh, NSEG, um, final victory, final victory, uh, Germany was on the cusp of it in August 1941, um, the failure to take Moscow, uh, it cost Germany victory in the east, uh, the, uh, and that, uh, and that cost them, uh, final victory.

Um, so that, that, that, that, that decided the war. That's one. Who, who in the Reich would have had that realization at that point? Who would have realized that the war was lost in 1941? Who would have realized that, I mean, they were, I mean, a lot of people did. The fewer realized it himself, but like, no man is an auger. so the idea was we salvage what we can and now we're you know and now from the perspective of the furor and over commander vermarked the position became we got to fight as

hard as we can you know to destroy the soviet union before america can uh can fully mobilize and attack us you know and um you know either force a peace with moscow or eliminate their capacity to reconstitute and make war, you know, and fortify, you know, create fortress Europe and prepare to prepare for war with the United States. Is that what they did? You're dealt and you just got to, and I mean, you don't, you don't have, it's in God's hands with you win or not, okay, in life, in war and love. Like, you just got to show up, man.

You just got to show up and you just got to do it. Okay. And that's what the Germans do best. So that's what they did. looks like we have a question about Italy here do you think that big chin man's legacy

lives on in Maloney she seems to be an extremely watered down version of him she's nothing like him she's she's more liberal than Tony Blair in 2003 it's like it's like when media claims are like you know

Donald Trump who's basically the same guy as Bill Clinton's like Donald Trump is the most right wing man ever in America it's like no he's not he's some goofy TV personality who's basically an Israel first liberal and this Italian broad is some like

she's some like weird Zionist European lady who's a huge liberal and like maybe one time she said that like you know like the African immigrants who like urinate in the alley by your house kind of suck and they're like that is so racist right wing she's Mussolini that's what's going on

do you really think that America does things like like carrying out terrorist attacks on Europeans energy infrastructure you really think they'd allow some like overt fascist or some like hard-right politician to become a to become a chancellor or prime minister of a major European country you really think that would happen like the odds of that are about zero yeah um you you had mentioned well when i asked about nuremberg and i had asked about julia striker that striker and like a h really wasn't a fan of Stryker. Well, when you watch Triumph of the Will, he actually speaks. He actually

addresses the crowd in the whole, you know, I think after Rosenberg. And yeah, was there a falling out later or why would he even be? It was ongoing. Stryker was a, was kind of a nasty guy. He and Gearing had this ongoing feud. And Stryker, Stryger published this, because Sturmer really was like a tabloid and it was like full of rumors and like dirty jokes and just like bullshit and on top of like it's like you know uh like racial takes

and uh he he did stuff like uh he just like publishing like cartoons like implying that like Herman Gearing was impotence and stuff like that and then he was like literally a cuckold and like and Gearing finally got sick of it so like Gary like banned Derrmer from

uh from uh from from from from from Luf of Barracks and stuff and uh the uh there was some uh striker was accused of embezzlement at one point when he was a galiter and that that probably had some merit i mean it was nothing like it wasn't it was nothing tremendous by the standards of the day or by our standards but the guy was probably somewhat corrupt too um but striker uh he uh he uh striker was an alt-comfer and he he was a he was a hard guy during the days during the years of struggle

like he was a street fighter you know he was he was a hard man and he definitely spilled blood for the cause and he was resonant with a certain kind of man you know like like uh like think of like it'd be kind of like let's say like a right wing movement really did jump off in America like a real one

okay and like Alex Jones like shed kind of any prediction of political correctness and he's like yeah I'm on board with that um and he became like really powerful that's kind of like what's striker was like okay um he was like a nutty guy of the sort of that that kind of underground journalists are you know and and he yeah he basically i mean the furor the furor and garing were really tight you know and even when even when things got bad between him i mean

heller liked garing you know and uh at some point you know when it comes down a picking between his striker and garing like i was going to pick garing you know this is the way it is You know, and I think that was probably the primary catalyst, but there's other things, too. Let me see if I have any other questions here. Yeah, I've got to bounce a minute, frankly. Yeah, all right. Well, then, let's end it. Thank you for this.

I appreciate me in 90 minutes. No, this is outstanding, man. I didn't mean to be super abrupt. I'm going to go live this weekend with the launch of my YouTube channel. And, well, there's not any dedicated topic. I'm going to deal with, like, the news of the day and kind of announce what content's going to be like on that channel. but anybody who shows up, if you want to ask me questions that you didn't get to here,

that's totally cool. I didn't mean to be abrupt. It's just like the hour's getting late. I got to do some things before. I got a busy day tomorrow. But, yeah. Let's... Any other plugs?

Not really. I mean, just, you know, just I'm going to, I'm laying, I got a bunch of things I'm doing this weekend, because I was sick the other week. I'm catching up on Mind. your content. You know, you can find the MindVasor pod in my long forum on the Substack

at Real Thomas 777. Dot substack.com You know, that's the primary place to find me right now. We got a very active telegram channel t.m.m.e. slash the number 7-H-M-A-S-7777. And like I said,

there's a lot of irons in the fire right now. I'm very excited. Steelstorm 2 is dropping this month. month, you know, in my science fiction series to Imperium Press. And you and myself, Pete, I'm going to review what you sent me tonight that you were kind enough to. And let's set a time to record a discussion of that, too, whenever it's convenient for you. We'll talk about that in the next couple days. Yeah, yeah.

And thank you cool people for participating. I really, really appreciate it very much. Yeah. Everyone's really excited about this. And everyone's saying, thanks for the great series. And who knows? Is there maybe another series on the horizon? Yeah, very much, so thank you, everybody.