The Pete Quiñones Show - *Throwback* Individualism, Anarchism and Sociopathy w/ Josh Neal

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

63 MinutesPG-13Josh Neal is a former psychology professor and author of the book "American Extremist."Josh joins Pete to discuss the section of his book entitled Individualism, Anarchism, and Sociopathy.Josh's SubstackJosh's YouTubeAmerican ExtremistJosh on TwitterPete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'Support Pete on His WebsitePete's PatreonPete's SubstackPete's SubscribestarPete's GUMROADPete's VenmoPete's Buy Me a CoffeePete on FacebookPete on TwitterBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.

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I'm here with Jay Neal. Jay-Neal, right? Jay, Jay's okay? You can call me, Josh. Josh, Josh Neal. What's going on, Josh? It's going well. It's a great pleasure to be speaking to you. I have to say, shout out to my friend Jefferson Lee. He put me on to you because you. have this great series with Thomas 77 on like all these historical things and it's just

it's a real it's a real public service you two guys do so kudos to you thank you and then tomorrow starts the bulk the 1990s Balkan wars all right let's go yeah tell everybody a little bit about yourself uh well yeah so as I said before I I host or co-host Jefferson Lee with my friend Jefferson Lee who's also in this I write, I have a substack, J.Neil. That substack. I branded it as psychopolitics, and it's mostly essays on psychology and politics. And there's an accompanying YouTube channel.

My first book with Imperium Press is called American Extremist, The Psychology of Political Extremism. And I actually got a new one coming out with them in a few weeks called Understanding Conspiracy theories. But yeah, for people who don't know me, I've been. I would say in the radical right with my name and face out there since 2017,

2018, I made the switch I think like for a lot of people I know we were hardcore Trumpists like very libertarian but like on that cusp of well what used to be called

the libertarian to alt-right pipeline and so I was one of those guys and when the Syria strikes happened, that's when I started to look away from Trump and start looking to other things. And then in 2017, obviously, that was the alt, right? So for people who don't know me, that's my background. Tell me a little bit about American extremists.

Yeah, so a little bit of a personal story. I was in 2019, I was involved with some people that your audience may be familiar with, people like Richard Spencer, so on and so forth. Augustus and Victus at the time he was running for office, presidential office. I remember. Yeah, yeah. And it was wild. Great guy.

Terrible what happened to him. He's out, obviously. And so he's back to streaming, you know, to your audience, show him your love and affection. He's a great guy. But I got doxed as a result of getting involved with him. a lot of those people. And I had already, I came into the alt-right, because I have a background of psychology. Maybe you guessed from the title of the book. And I went, you know, I didn't go the doctoral direction because the kinds of questions I was interested in were more political

and philosophical than, like, strictly speaking, about mental health or whatever, social science research I guess on today. So I was already working on some stuff, observations. I had over the years, but it was really like getting into the radical right was like having the veil pulled away from your eyes entirely. And then getting doxed as a result of that kind of made me have to confront some kind of realities like when I got into it. I was like, oh, well, Nazis, that's not a real thing. That's just like a libitard fantasy.

And by and large, it's not, you know, it's not like there's a well-organized, politically active machine that has political, cultural, material resources, things like that. Obviously, that's not happening. But nonetheless, there are people who a spouse does use, and they range from totally harmless, tepid, you know, contributing members of society who just want the trains to run on time. And on the other end are actual degenerates, people you wouldn't want to associate yourself with. The reality, I think as most people probably knows, that really is an extreme, heavily ostracized minority, not just by polite society, but even in these kinds of circles. I do think we do a really good job of self-policing, maybe to our detriment, because obviously the left doesn't do that at all.

They just set their freaks loose. So when I came out of that, I felt like I had some unique things to say about what was wrong with, American politics left, right and center. And so I kind of wrote the book imagining, I'm holding someone's hand through a red pill process. A very, you know, not like cutesy memes and gifts. Like this is a little bit more, you're gonna have to take some breaks. You're gonna have to go back to the corner and have them, you know,

fucking whatever those things in boxing that they put, when you start developing the mouse's, they put that huge fucking like thing or compress on your head. Yeah. Like this is a red pill like that, but you'll need the compress and everything. So it starts off talking about media control, myth, mythological narrativeizing as the framework people should be thinking about rather than like ideology or so on and so forth. And so I carry people through this, you know, here's what's, you know, here's what myth is. Here's like how how this kind of psychological framework.

is influencing your decision making, so on and so forth. And I give actual lots of citations to that. And then obviously going of the media, you know, this is, because the basic thesis of the book is, it's not an original idea. I just really kind of beat the hell out of it over the course of the book. Is that the liberal establishment is genuinely where political violence originates from, whether it's, you know, forced integration by gun, by the military, whether it's Antifa in the streets, which is not so much a thing right now,

whether it's journalists going after you. Just wait. Oh, yes, right, just wait. Yeah, I don't want to speak too soon. Knock on wood. So getting people to think, which is very easy. if you're talking to conservatives because they already hate the government and they hated the government for like 150 300 years. Americans have just always hated the government. And so it's

very easy to be like, well, here's this persecutory framework, but you have to adjust some of the variables because obviously con ink runs on his own persecutory framework and it's false, as we all know. So that's the basic thesis. And then I try to explain how that is. And in some cases, it's talking about literally, I was writing this during 2020. So every week I'm like kind of pseudo, like almost like a historian of it, like an ancient Roman historian.

Like there were this many black people on the street this day. And they busted this many heads or whatever. So it's half like, okay. philosophical analysis, but also half like detailing the actual political violence that was happening at that time. I actually think it made it even more impactful because it's like, here's theoretical stuff. Here's some nice sources and citations. And then also here's a video of a black guy stomping on someone's head until they're bleeding all over the place. Obviously, that's not what's in the book. And then taking these people, you know, well, here's what's wrong with the left

wing in America. Here's what's wrong with this, the centurism, liberalism. it kind of informally and then what's wrong with the right and a lot of it relies very heavily on kind of classical psychoanalytic theories but it's not all psychoanalysis and as Mike likes to say the book does take Freud back for the right so I mean if you have if you're allergic to or sensitive to Freud and obviously I understand why people would be it's very much like a different spin on kind of a familiar story. One of these days you've got to come back and do an episode just on narrative building because, I mean, that's where everything is.

And anybody who doesn't realize that after the last four years is just not paying attention. They're in their ideological box and they're, you know, playing with, it's them and their friends playing by themselves, you know, It's just you haven't stepped out to look around and see exactly what's happening out here. But one of the things that I've really been looking at lately is individualism. And I think it's hard to miss that this was individualism was a big part of the founding of this country. You can see it in the founding documents. people will argue that, sure, you know, there was individual, people talked about individual rights, but there was collectives and everything. Well, sure. Okay. Yeah, there were collectives and everything. But everything always moves left, it seems. So you, you sort of knew that it wasn't going to last. Anyone who, you could look at, you know, things, things don't get better until they get really, really, really, really bad. And so there's a section in the book where you talk.

about it's after the narrative part about the narrative where it's individualism anarchism and I think so sociopathy so can we get a little bit into you know like what you see as when it comes to individualism is that what you see is that is that what you see this society and this culture being all about air grid operator of Ireland's electricity grid is power up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans. Our consultation closes on the 25th of November. Have your say, online or in person. So together we can create a more reliable, sustainable electricity supply for your community. Find out more at airgrid.i.4 slash Northwest.

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famously has written about this. I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that the Western tradition is the tradition of the individual. However, in the same way to be a liberal in the 18th century meant something different than to be a liberal today, to be an individual in the 18th century, meant something different than it does today. I've been reading a lot of San Francis and James Burnham lately, and one of the things that San Francis emphasizes, sorry, I just lost my train of thought, is that... So 18th century liberalism is different than liberalism today.

And then being an individual. Okay, thank you. So he talks about, like, for instance, great save. Very good job. You know, he talks about, okay, you know, there's these different types of liberals. And if you were a liberal in the 18th century, actually, you know, fundamentally what's distinguishing it from today's liberal is all of these restraints and considerations and obligations and duties and belongingness and embeddedness

that is the background of all this cool, sexy, enlightenment, liberal stuff that we started doing over the last couple hundred years. there was a story in the news not so long ago maybe a couple of years ago someone was trying to get Emmanuel count canceled because they found his like private correspondences where he just talks about racism and hating women and stuff like that and it's like none of these people it was just a foregone conclusion that that whatever they theorized was occurring in a homogenous European Christian context. So same thing with being an individual.

You still had responsibilities and obligations and duties and other things. Your individualism was still curtailed by larger social forces, the church, the different political organizations, so and so forth at that time. And so you still had to fit in society, but today it's really the opposite. Society is now increasingly bending to accommodate the most extreme. individual people who can collectivize and then create this political edifice that that makes the rest of us conform to them. Where I work, I had to accommodate a gender, non, whatever kind of person. And that's their individualism kind of like having this warping effect on the social

fields around them. Like, well, suddenly the rest of us are caught in your madness. And that's just part of the equation. You said before, you kind of like hinted at that. You kind of like hinted at the moldbug line about, you know, Cthulhu always swimming left. I think that's obviously because technology has this corrosive effect on social norms and mores. The ultimate consequence or outcome of which is this kind of radical liberation from all of this social embeddedness going on. So today to be an individual is, I mean, I'm not the first person to say this, your audience hopefully very well understands this to be an individual today is unlike any probably any kind of person that has ever existed in human history to the point i remember i for a

short spell i was a teacher the university teacher and i remember telling my students like 10 years ago like because the hot question i'd always get day one like intro psychology class is like okay professor deets what's up with all these trans folks right and then like i'm trying to go through the like syllabus and they're like can you make sense of this to me like all right hold on but like to go through that conversation with them and be like well guess that's not even weird like just wait seven years and you're going to have people like with prosthetics and you're going to have to start calling them what they want or that just the the the the the the if you want to say the continuing like a revolutionary spirit of this is just going to keep bringing new manifestations of this so

So with regards to the title of that section, individualism and sociopathy, the argument I make is that effectively, to be like an entrepreneur, you know, the Foucotean self-entrepreneur, to be this neoliberal person, to be an American, you know, extensive air quotes, is to be this radically self-constructed person with like no predecessor, no context, no pretext. no pretext. It's solipsism. I mean, it's every nasty word you've ever heard in a philosophy class. But ultimately, it's pathological. Do you see that as like particularly a post-World War II phenomenon where you really start seeing things, it all start breaking apart as far as a real change in what it means to be an individual?

Yes, although the seeds of that were very, clearly starting to show in the 50, 60 years prior to that. So, you know, the progressive tradition in the United States at the turn of the 20th century was a Nazi progressive vision. To put it indelicately, I mean, everything that the Third Reich did, not everything, but the things that we mostly remember them for, the economic policies and the kind of extreme, technocratic interest on social policies. Those are Anglo inventions. That's Atlantisist philosophy turn of the 20th century. American and English men are looking out at the world and they're seeing what we've come to inherit.

And they're like, oh, my God, what the hell do we do about all this? And I think there was some kind of attempt to shepherd in a new vision of the individual that could, you know, protect the white, race to protect white people to protect america to protect england the british isles to protect political sovereignty in european nations so on to protect the constitution i mean these kinds these things are all synonymous really it's not like they're separate things if you want to protect the constitution if you want to save america if you want to do the north i almost said norman rockwell if you want to do the george lincoln rockwell thing well it's all the same thing um but uh yeah so as far as that post war aspect of that. I look at the post-war order. This is an argument I make in my upcoming book.

There was a slur that was very common at that time used by effectively the radical right whenever they would talk about the liberal consensus. They would talk about, well, that's what they would call it. It was this consensus view and it had a kind of derogatory, kind of like proto-libtard. Like if you were the consensus, you were brainwashed. you were just spouting kind of like this newfangled liberal social ideology that had no popularity really or history prior to the Second World War. So this consensus was the meeting of the dying Atlantisist empire and this surge of European migration into the West, of a very particular type of European from Russia, maybe the pale somewhere over there. And they met in the middle.

The West had to be saved. The whole European experiment, like 20th century is like this great tragedy of us just like figuring out new ways to just roast each other. And by the middle of the 20th century, how many of us are left? Not a lot of the good ones. So it's this waning Western Empire that's bringing in a lot of. of this, well, as we know now, ex-Bolshevist, you know, or descended from Bolshevist types who came in, wanted to find a place in America, and they found flattering ways to reinforce the waning American

liberal ideology in a way that made sense post, you know, San Francis to speak to invoke him one more time, post this managerial revolution, this mass managerial revolution. So, you know, a lot of ideas and concepts that emerged at that time that are not necessarily related. Maybe if you try to do a genealogy and try to connect these things like Glenn Beck on Fox News with his whiteboard, maybe you couldn't do that. But nonetheless, they're all talking about the same goal. I invoked Foucault before, the entrepreneur of the self, his idea of neoliberalism. This is the new American economic policy post-World War II, which the major emphasis of which was about this internal kind of psychic development that was supposed to be essential to unlocking this american

economic engine to fulfilling you know the old american idea but in a new way uh in this new technocratic society uh and so my inherited wisdom you know i'm a little bit younger than you i'm still in my 30s I had my birthday earlier this week. The things I was told growing up that were good pieces of advice, follow your dreams, do what makes you happy. This is like the head smashed in, you know, inherited version of like the Foucotean ideas. Like you can liberate yourself and you can be anything that you want. And all of this is like a radical political act, but it's also American and blah blah. So I think it's specifically, obviously the purpose of this consensus being, you know, how do we

manage the existing populations while we get this new migratory program in place. So I feel like that individualism, not to get like crazy tinfoil hat, is not like an intentional thing that was done like we're going to ameliorate or we're going to anesthetize people while we start moving infinity Africans around. I think it was kind of a natural development, but the consequence is obviously for us. have been terrible. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge

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be drinkaware, visit drinkaware.awe.e. It's sort of like we've become, we're like these radical serfs or these radical annuities, walking annuities. Basically what they wanted was a transactional society and it basically turned us into transactional beings. Yeah, absolutely. That's part of the individuality of it is what are you contributing to commerce. It's what the military is now.

I mean, if you go to the Navy's website, it will say that they are there to protect the sea lanes for commerce in the world, you know, so that it can move. And yeah, so I was thinking you were talking, one of the things that you had mentioned was how even with the individualism of the old, of the previous to what we're dealing with. Now, when you had church, when you had family structure, when you had a lot of things to keep you grounded to keep you as part of a tight knit, I think R.R. Reno, Return to the Strong God, something like that. Yeah. And that's what I was thinking the whole time was the goal of crushing, you know, like the Italian-American society and mutual aid societies, churches. and the family is to turn everybody into this radical kind of monetary instrument, basically. Yeah, well, some things to keep in mind, as you're talking, I've always got the eternal, like, devil, angel on one side or the other. I'm a terrible contrarian. So as you're talking, I was starting to do a bit of a, like a, hey, man, that's not really fair. Right? Because I was starting to think, well, transaction has always been part of society.

You know, the internal critic who's like watching us and thinking, they're full of shit, I'm trying to answer them as I'm listening to you. Like there's always been an economic component to society. So fundamentally, how is this different, right? Because that's probably what someone who's listening to you and disagrees with you and me might say. And it's fundamentally, it's a, it's a qualitative difference more than anything else. one of the things I was thinking of that I think is a really good example of what you're talking about, a modern phenomenon is exactly how the red pill nanosphere community has ended up in like this year, where if you listen to or read people in these communities talk about specifically men, talk about why they fail with women or why feminism sucks or why the world is giving them a raw deal,

so on and so forth, is they start talking about, like, they roll out their laundry list of things that they expect the woman to bring because it's a tit for tat. You know, I want to solve the freeloader problem. You know, all of these things where she doesn't, you know, if she doesn't cook and do this and that and have $1,000 and $40,000 and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, for one thing, it's very feminine because like that whole transactional thing was like trying to solve the native sexual inequalities between men and women and trying to solve like all of these complex social problems. Fertility, pair bonding, alleviating tribal conflicts,

ameliorating tribal conflicts, so on and so forth. And so on the one hand, you know, qualitatively how's it different is part of this inversion. The wrong people have become the bean counters, bean counting is kind of a womanly thing. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. Like, you know, they mind the domestic life. You know, they're very fastidious details in that, that manner. They make up 80% of domestic spending, like that's their domain. That's a qualitative difference. But now that it's also, I was going to say this before, it's also much more egotistical. And we might as well say egotistical pejoratively, egotism. I mean, we might as well say, when I, really, when I talk about individualism in the book, it's probably better to say egotism,

an extreme radical egotism, which is all about, well, ultimately, like, you're not really interfacing with direct reality because you're interfacing first with this buffer of your own self-aggrandizing bullshit, which the contemporary version of individualism is just like constantly throwing, it's like a guy just always throwing gasoline. on the fire so you can come up with ever more insane cope like this guy will Stansell on Twitter I don't know if you've been watching him it's like it's like we're going on a full business week of this and all you're watching is just egotism yeah yeah it's it's remarkable well let's let's talk about this

because we can talk about individualism we can talk about anarchism but when it crosses over and in an in your personal life I mean that can cause enough problems, especially relationship-wise with your family. But let's cross over into the political now. When that crosses over into the political, where do we end up? What's the path down that road? Yeah. Well, anarchism is one expressly political manifestation.

I have a very small, I would say, like maybe sub 10% sympathy for anarchism. but it's not morally related to what you typically see from anarchists. I mean, most people, I think, have a, it's why we like vigilantes, the Punisher, the Batman, because innately we all, especially as conservatives, I think, have a distrust of society. We have a distrust of large groups. We have distrust of things that we can't see, smell, taste, touch, hold accountable, so on and so forth. for better or for worse. And gosh, I don't know where my brain is today.

But anyway, so the point about anarchism, right? So it's a little tougher for conservatives, or maybe it's a little easier for conservatives. That's what I was getting at. But nonetheless, like political anarchism, it's distinct from individualism in the day I think it is more specifically about kind of, you know, the Ed Dutton, mutational load, spiteful mutant, sexual deviant situation.

like at bottom it seems to me that anarchism politically is just about protection of I don't know what words I can use on your show yeah I don't care you can say the comet pizza types right so it's like it's effectively like a political organization for pedophiles I don't think there's anything more meaningful to anarchism about that but then again again it's like well how do you even have like a political block of pedophiles be part participating in your democratic society well I think think that's you have this continual radical liberation um i don't know if individualism is related to this but certainly the the the criminal as being elevated you know into a higher moral

position than you know people who enforced the law or people who simply follow the law might not be related to individualism per se but it's you know this cascading decay of american society well it's a it's a tool i mean if we're going to talk about sam francis we can talk about a narco tyranny. And I know a lot of, I know a lot of anarchists, especially a narco-capitalists, who absolutely hate that term because, you know, it seeks to, you know, it makes anarchy look bad. And historically, yeah, it's, let's talk about the Spanish Civil War. I can do that for 10 and 12 hours, okay? When I think of anarchism, I think of the Spanish Civil War, digging, disinterning nuns and priests. But when you look at a society where,

basically the people in charge are off doing whatever they're doing like you were just mentioning, but they're allowing, they can only get away with that doing what they're doing by unleashing the worst dregs of society upon the good people and telling the good people they can't protect themselves from the dregs of society. and then if the drugs of society do something really horrible, they don't even just like this cop that just, these cops that got jumped in New York a couple of days ago, and they were the people who did it,

migrants, illegals were released on with no bail. It's all a tool and it's anarchy for some and not for others and definitely not the kind of anarchy that a narco-capitalist want, at least most of them, I would have seen. Airgrid, operator of Ireland's electricity grid, is powering up the Northwest. We're planning to upgrade the electricity grid in your area, and your input and local knowledge are vital in shaping these plans.

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souls that these people don't. Like, I mean, that kind of, look, I went through an edge lord atheist phase, you know, I mean, I never spit on priests or did anything really terrible, but, you know, I probably said some untoward things towards our lord. But like that degree, like, we're going to dig up nuns. We're going to, you know, desecrate graves. We're going to just try to innovate new ways to spit on the normal social institutions around us. That's really what anarchism tends to be a lot of times.

It's that lack of conformism, like that thoughtless conformism. I just go to church because it's there. And I just love Jesus because that's what I do. Right. Like there's not even contemplating on it. But as far as like individualism and like what are the political consequences of that. Well, I think by and large, I think the two biggest outcomes are depoliticization. Because if you're an egotist, the kind of persuasive filter that ultimately matters is like, oh, does this titillate me?

Does this interest me? Does this speak to me? Does this have an immediate application to my life world as I perceive it? it. Whereas, like, really political action is, is, like, extroverted. It's about looking at other people, looking at the problems of other people in society. It's fundamentally, I mean, real politics is extroversion. I don't want to use psychiatric language and abuse it that way. You know what I mean. You're nodding in agreement. So on one hand, it's depoliticization. And then obviously, on the other hand, it's like, it's extreme, well, not just, um, I any politics you could say would be part of it, maybe counterintuitively, but also like single issue voting, like all this wacky stuff. Like I only care about zoning laws or whatever. I mean, as opposed to like nationalist, fulkish politics where it's like, well, everything is a political question. Everything has to be addressed politically. And we're going to have a vehicle to put people in those places to do that, right? Like the individuals who are part of the collective and see them

as selves as such and then can function as individuals in service of the collective. You know, that's like, again, part of maybe that's why it's better to say egotism, because ultimately being an individual is a good thing. It's who we are. It's our tradition. We couldn't really abandon it if we tried. And so fundamentally, what's different is this profoundly psychological dimension to modern life. you have to have justifications for everything.

You know, everything's personalized. You're encouraged to make everything yourself, and that, for a lot of people, that means their politics too, which is not always a good thing. I still engage with libertarians online. I know. I'm a masochist.

And, you know, one the other day was like, oh, so, you know, what's a bigger issue than economics? And, you know, one of my friends, posted up, you know, drag queens from Vimar and drag queens now. And he's like, oh, oh, I'm scared of the, oh, I'm supposed to be scared of the men dressing up like women. And that's just, that's exactly what it is. It's the meme of Rome falling.

And, you know, the guy saying, oh, how does this affect me personally? But it does. It perfects you profoundly personally. I have a working theory. It's not, I'm not totally, maybe I shouldn't bring it to you, but I'll do it anyway. it has a lot to do with the explicitly property focused tradition in, I think, the Western economic au revoir, if you want to say. This is, you know, people like me who came up six, seven years ago when, like, the Nasbole thing was popular. And the reason why, like, people like Keith Woods and whoever are constantly fighting these accusations of communism is because I think the

the aspect of Western political society, which is kind of like libertarians, but not strictly limited to them, the kinds that think of, well, they think of America. What makes America great is its economy. So ultimately, there's this extreme economic preference or overprivileging, but they look at like Adam Smith, and they look at how we solved the issues of property, in the Western canon as being like definitive to who we are. And, you know, I have a different temperament. I actually, I mean, outside of like toothbrushes and things like that, I kind of don't care so much about property.

You kind of figured those things out. Like, I don't know, maybe because I, in another life, I was a musician. Well, you know what an anarcho-capitalist is going to say, oh, so you don't mind if I move into your apartment, right? Well, our narco-capitalists don't mind if they move migrants into my apartment. So, like, fundamentally, you know, they're really. So many of them really need to go fuck themselves. I mean, I mean, I saw, I was going back and forth with a guy today who was like, like,

debate me on Israel, debate me on Israel, debate me on Israel, debate me on Israel, because I'm like, well, I mean, I know the history of Israel and I know how it was founded. And I'll have the opinion, if you found something on terrorism, you're always going to have terrorism there. So anyway, but then what did I, what do you find when you go into his tweets? open borders, free trade, and then, you know, well, do you feel the same way about Israel? But, no, I mean, so it's like these libertarian types, they're just, oh, well, yeah, if I say we shouldn't have open borders, that means that I worship the border patrol and that means that I'm a bootlicker. Whatever, dude.

Well, yeah, there's, they're anachronistic. it's one of the most BTFOed political ideologies post-2015 with communism is a very close second. But ultimately these are materialists, which I think is related to egotism, which is related to this obsession with private property, mine, you know, delineation of what is mine, this over-elaborated legal artifice to define what is mine. I mean, ultimately, in a folkish setting, these questions answer themselves, right? Like, my brother, if I leave my shirt at my brother's place, like, there's not going to be World War III because my property, he's holding my property. It's like, whatever, I'll see him next week. It's not the end of the world. Because I think also there's a certain assumption in a fulkish, nationalistic America-first society of, like,

Hey man, I love you. You know, like, we're related to each other. We come from the same place, probably even literally, but metaphorically, you know, in terms of the grand myth, myths that animate our lives, like, we're the same. And these types of nerdish economic questions, which do need to be solved. And at complex societies, obviously you need to think about those kinds of things. but it's a fixation. It has a lot to do with paranoia. I think all of,

once we start highlighting these psychological factors, the types of people become very clear who they are. Well, you use the term sociopathy in the header there under individualism, anarchism, and sociopathy. So when you use sociopathy, how are you using it?

Yeah, so it's one of these funny psychology words that has a million definitions. I gave my own loose-ish definition in the book. I actually don't have it in front of me, so I don't remember what I said. Do you have it? Yeah, I'm looking for it right now. I can't find it.

But go on. I'll see if I can spot it. The main thrust, because it's one of those things that, like, people confuse with psychopathy, right? And, you know, these are very poorly defined concepts, yet they do stand for something. and it means something when you use them. Psychopathy, effectively, we're talking about, you know, in loose colloquial terms,

we're talking about the most dangerous, violent, abrasive, non-conforming members of society. Yeah, you have here. Okay, so it says sociopathy as a concept is poorly defined within the disciplines of psychiatry and psychology and owing to its operational weakness is greatly abused by the lay public and sadly professionals especially,

often completed with other somewhat nebulously defined terms such as antisocial and psychopath. Here, sociopath should be understood as an individual with an impoverished social feeling, often exhibited by the following characteristics. Impulsivity, weak ego defenses, narcissism, irresponsibility, callousness, and attachment-related anxiety. Yeah, I think that covers it because if you want to think, in a congenital sense, sociopathy, very small representation in the overall population, not a lot of natural sociopaths, but we're mass producing people due to this, you know, this intention to destroy the family, destroy the community, destroy the nation, religion,

borders, so on and so forth. I mean, if you encourage people to get divorced, if you encourage people to be sexually liberated, then that's, that naturally has the consequence of weakening the social unit we call the family. Children grew up with fewer resources. Also think of like the crazy psychiatry fads and child rearing fads over the last hundred years. Each one's kind of like perverse and dysfunctional in his own unique way from the one that came before it. So like for example like kids don't sleep with their parents. You know you don't nurse the children. You don't you intentionally ignore the children. And some of these have caveats, like it's appropriate at certain times under certain conditions for certain people, et cetera, et cetera. But that's not how America works. That's not how

marketing works. And an idea is brought to people. And we try to do this one size fits all thing, which is not good. So you get people with these attachment related disorders. Fundamentally, what that means is while they didn't spend a lot of physical time with mom and dad, They are on a hormonal, neurological, probably other levels, malnourished, underdeveloped. And there's a very limited window that infants and small children have to get these resources, especially when it comes to social development. It's really like age five, age six. And the trend over the last 15 years is to shove as many screens and images and highly stimulating things at ever younger children.

So they're not socialized with people. Anyway, then they go through a crazy education system that's racially diverse and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What do you have? You have people who don't know how to develop relationships who don't actually on the structural level of their brain. They can't look at you and see you as a person with a soul. like that they need to respect the dignity of like all of these things that are kind of I think second nature to people who maybe are older grew up with a different way of life had more like put in more rounds interacting with people so you have this mass like phenomenon of kind of like an artificial sociopathy people are constantly to invoke the transactional thing from earlier they're constantly looking at other people as means to some other end. They are in a fundamentally exploitative mode of social interaction. And they are themselves very distressed and suffering often to the point of some kind of

addiction or otherwise impairment, fixation, fetish, what have you, sex, politics, food, tattoos, all of the above. The thing, and I'll close it off on this. I've got gab fever all night. I apologize. Like I said, I'm a younger guy. I turned 38. It was very common. Still is, but when I was younger, like normal millennial discourse is, is this kind of neurotic of like, am I normal?

Can you affirm that I'm normal? Are you secretly a sociopath? This paranoia of like, what laundry list of mental disorders do you have? How quickly can I find it out? And then what are we going to do about it? you know for some people it would be like let me find out so i can avoid you and for other people it's like let me find out so so that i can never get away from you right like um anyway point being the sociopathy like is just the norm almost air grid operator of ireland's electricity grid

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You also can't have political organization if everyone's an individual. So this is even more meaningfully the ultimate political outcome of individualism. If all justifications, all explanations, any any rationalization you can offer has to come specifically from you, your specific circumstance of life from the exact moment you were born until exactly this moment. You can't have reference to anything else like you are atomized. You're one node, but all of the circuitry around you has been like smashed with hammers. So you can't plug into the larger network. And that's very pernicious. I mean, ultimately with that type of lot, the question, like, how does this affect you personally?

Like, that is a persecutor's logic. That is someone who, that's friend-deme stuff. Like, I don't talk to you or my brother or my friend or my neighbor like that. I get involved because I realize that we're part of the same thing. And there's not really a conflict or a contradiction between him as an individual and the social, ecology that he's plugged into. This is a big problem with libertarians too. Collectivism.

Collectivism is like one of these still remaining boogie words in politics, and they only really see it with libertarians. But it's like one of, it's, again, it has to do with egotism, right? Because there are always collectives. A type of social activity is ultimately a collectivist activity.

So, I mean, all this boils down to, to that Jefferson Lee would say as nationalists, the economic or the unit of society is actually the nation itself, the people, right? But in neoliberal society, it's just you, not even your kids, not even your grandparents, unless they want to blame you for things, shame you for things. But it seems that there is a group. And I think we know that pretty much down the middle, when it comes to the most important things, you know, Republicans and Democrats are going to get together. I mean, if you're, if you're having a vote on whether, you know,

anti-Semitism is irrational and repugnant, everyone's going to vote for that. If it's a vote for war, everyone's going to, you know, there's going to be very few people who are going to abstain or even saying no. It's always issues that where it's like, oh, well, it's like two financial systems or The two competing financial systems are, whoa, no, we're not going to cut taxes now. Yes, we're going to cut taxes now. It always seems to be like the things that do cause the most control or cause the most damage to the system and the people financially and bodily war, sending kids off to war for nothing. those are right down the middle, okay, everything's good.

We've given you the, you're allowed to fight about this here, but it's the whole elite theory thing, too. You do have some people who get together, 535 of them and then, you know, stretch it out a little bit from there, who agree on things. But when everyone is a radical individual, when everybody's a neoliberal, individual, getting groups to get together to possibly push back or to even supplant what's existing makes it impossible. It's like they designed the perfect system. If it was a hydra, you wouldn't even know where to start cutting off heads. Because yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the individualism thing also is a great tool for them. because 350 million people can't organize against what is essentially probably what 2000 well yeah there's there's a lot of aspects to what you just said what was a devil what was the angel devil something that you uh that made you no just well just I always think because as the older I get the less psychologically inclined I become or in fact I maybe I should say the more I think about these types of issues, the less psychology factors into my ultimate kind of analytical process. Not to say it's unimportant because it's, you know, it's explicitly on a psychological

battlefield that what you just said is being waged, right? It's by putting you into just your body and blocking off all of the literally social resources that make us who we are. Like just on a small... level or been like with the group friends and then the chat ended or the the friend group fell apart or maybe you just like checked out for a little while and you felt like dumber or like less sharp or less on your less like you normally are because actually you're like plugged you're like plugged into the Avengers like okay I've yeah now now I have plus 15 IQ points because

the guy next to me is a super genius and I've absorbed all of his knowledge. So like so much of what makes us great, even as individuals are the relations that we have. And to impose this program of individualism is to impose this program of ultimately kind of psychologist, which makes us all prisoners of our own fears and anxieties, except for those of, you know, people in the audience who are extroverts and not neurotic. You know, I hate you. I hope you have a great life, but I hate you. The rest of us, you know, it's, it's this, I'm imagining like the guy on the train throwing the coal into the, into the oven or whatever, like you've just got to, it's just endless coal.

You can just kind of keep like psychologically, you just have continual resources to harm yourself. Because life is difficult. Being in the body is weird. Nobody gets it right. Do we all come from crazy circumstances? And there's a criminal exploitative class at the top of everything. So it's not exactly, you know, rosy pictures, rainbows, things like that.

However, there's no devil and angel. I just do like to emphasize that, you know, this is a program of containment. These are the parameters through which that gets achieved. And so, yeah, like if you can't get a couple of people together to flyer or rally or protest or pass around some kind of petition, I mean, those first barriers, and they're the most important barriers, a lot of the times, are fundamentally psychological, like seeing myself as a unit with Peter R. Kenonias, right? Like, that's a psychological hurdle that you have to

clear. Not expecting, there's the joke about, like, you know, the guy who, like, meets, hangs out with his cousin from, like, Norway or Denmark, and then gets a Venmo for, like, 78 cents because of half of the coffee you drank on the way to work together. Like that kind of like tit for tat, am I going to get everything out of Peter that Peter is getting out of me? Like that's not a normal response if we're a family, a folk. We think, okay, we're going to work all this out together. So yeah, I feel like I'm repeating myself a little bit, but I'll leave it a bet. People need to hear that. Let's finish on this. What's eukophobia? It's the hatred of the familiar or fear of the familiar, maybe even disgust of the familiar. It's what every Midwesterner,

every Midwestern 18-year-old, you know, just fresh out of college who moves to New York that I've ever met. That's what they're all like. Oh my God. Wyoming is so terrible. It's like, fuck you. I'll go there in a second. Let's trade place. It's, well, I say this is someone who suffers it, right? Like if you want to, again, on psychological terms, what is eukophobia? It's high trait openness, right? You are a novelty-oriented person. You, by your temperament, experience lower levels of disgust at unfamiliar or things that would typically trigger disgust. That trigger disgust, right? You feel less disgust. You're more inclined to experiment, try new things. You're more novelty seeking. You're probably less neurotic. Neurotic, meaning the intensity of negative

emotions that you experience. Like sometimes we think of neuroticism as just like self-attacking, but it's more like how hot does the engine get when you're stressed? And if you're very neurotic, well, it gets very hot very quickly and it takes you a very long time or maybe never to totally decompress, not literally never. That would be like a very extreme case. Comorbidities up to you ha. But it's a certain type, but it's also of the condition that we've inherited, especially, and I want to emphasize this, it's technological. facilitated. It is absolutely like you would not see the kind of Jesus Christ get me if there was not an ease of the ability to get the fuck out of town. So, you know, travel being the way that it is. These things encourage psychological tendencies that have pros and cons. You know, I love Peter Gabriel's album. That's also his like, I'm a third worldist, you know, Screw Whitey album, but it's great.

And he has a great ensemble of musicians, and he's playing this kind of world style. And it's interesting, and it's cool. But you can't live there. And yeah, I mean, the flip side, I guess, is oikophilia, and this might be like the conservative disease of too much veneration of tradition, and too much kind of, well, to be crass, boot licking, right? the extreme oica filiac is effectively the bootlicker and the extreme oygophobic is going to be the,

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and they own land here, they own businesses here. and even though, you know, they went an hour and 20 minutes away to go to college, they came back and they knew they were going to come back because they were continuing a tradition and continuing a legacy. And I think it's really interesting to find out that when you start talking about that to people and you're like, you know, it's not too late to start, do that now, find a plot of land, find something, start building, you know, start living, you know, as Thomas 777 says, start living historically. teaching, you know, teaching your progeny how to do that. And, um, did the amount of pushback that you can get from, get from talking like that is just, you know, what if I want my kid, what if my kid meets somebody, you know, from another state, you know, and they wants to get married with someone from another state. But he or she can move there. Yeah, you can move there. You know, if you have 10, if you have 10 acres, if you have 20 acres, why would you want him to go buy a

house, just have them build the house on the property and, you know, stay there and, you know, build something and build a legacy of some sort. When you, when you look at Monticello and Mountiello and Mountaine and places like that, I mean, those were supposed to be legacies. And now they're museums and I think Monticello is now a museum to woke of some sort. And I don't think that's oikphelia. I think that's just the way people have lived and kept order within in society for for hundreds and hundreds of years until we this technological revolution, but also this individual revolution. The, and they would certainly like to paint.

When I say they, I mean people who are opponents of our worldview, would certainly try to paint that as, I mean, they would take it a step further. Oikophelic might be kind of a sort of polite way, still derogatory ultimately in this context, but they're going to take that to the next step and say, I mean, they're just going to accuse you of being like an inbreeder and then it immediately becomes some kind of dysgenic disgusting thing which ironically or humorously enough is is like the opposite you know the thing that they're instituting is very much what they're accusing us of trying to promote I would just say one thing I mean again it's also part of the political program if you

deindustrialize major parts of the country it becomes a lot of less attractive place to live. And what happens to the people there, they get fat, they become addicts, they die early, they beat the shit out of their kids and their wives, they fucking kill people. They turned the local law enforcement into just bullshit. They turn the court system into bull. Everything decays. And young people grew up in that young people who naturally have an inclination to explore

and persevere and test boundaries and are very much bored with the familiar, especially in the climate that we're in. What else are they supposed to feel when they look at the town they grew up in and people either leave or they die? That's, you know, that's, that's a political program. And that's also something I think people don't understand all that well. I talk to friends and I'm like, you know, family, I wish I would have grown up in a family that would have put such a great importance on family and the family, the family land and everything. my grandmother, my grandparents had land in Puerto Rico that could have been handed down, but of course it got sold off like all boomers do and everything like that.

I didn't want the money. I wanted, yeah, I wanted the legacy. But the, I'm talking to a friend of mine and saying how important family is, like, well, my parents were shit. My, you know, my mother was a piece of shit. And it's like, well, why? Why? Do you think there was some kind of external circumstance?

Do you think they grew up in a society that gave them this mentality that just, you know, poisoned their food, did all this stuff to them that made them become like that? You know, it can all start with you. And, I mean, that's, yeah. I don't know if it's trauma induced. I hate to use that word. But, or if it's more akin to this individualism and egotism we're talking about. mind but you know like I not to get too personal I mean I had I love my family I'm glad I had the family that I had I'm glad I grew up where I grew up I like my life but it was the greatest

situation but I always felt and this is something I saw reflected in the people who grew up around me was that at a certain age you look at the people around you as people who have had to answer the same challenges of life that you have to answer and then you come to understand them in a more human way. I look back on my parents and of all the things I'm dissatisfied with now as an adult, I think back, well, when they were my age,

well, they probably thought the whole world was like constantly on the precipice of nuclear abomination. You know, like they really thought that, right? For decades, they really thought that. It was a real thing. And before that, everyone they knew had fucking pieces of them blown off in Vietnam

or Korea or WW2. And before that, maybe they grew up poor and maybe their parents lived through the Great Depression. Maybe they were immigrants and they came here and they had all kinds of like generally speaking, you know, like when when lefties talked about how awful and brutish and violent and terrible history has been, they're right. It's a it's a rough go. you know the 20th century was literally us just like how do we fucking kill more um how do we kill more european people industrial baby let's do it um your parents inherited a hellscape grandparents inherited hellscape your great grandpa we've actually maybe for only a couple of generations have kind of had it pretty good where you know you didn't have to go through child labor you didn't have to like all

the things you could you had an adolescence that wasn't the thing a hundred years ago there was no adult. There was no idea of let kids be kids. Oh, don't, you know, don't give little Timmy too much homework. That idea did not exist. Turn of the century, 20th century, British psychology was telling parents just short of beat your kids. It's good for them, right? So this is all a very different thing. And maybe I'm willing to bet it has more to do with the psychological dimensions of suffering and trauma that people don't look at these prior generations, see that humanity, want to be the torchbearer for that tradition. That's where I ended up.

That's where most of the people I know ended up. And if you want to end up there, too, I think logical questions. Cool. All right. Remind everybody where they can find your stuff again and I'll end this. Jneal.substack.com. That's for the substack. On YouTube, psychopolitics, on X, Psychopolitics with a K.

And then check out Imperium Press for American Extremist. and then probably in like three weeks understanding conspiracy theories. And thank you again so much, Peter, for your patience and your invitation. No problem. And come back real soon and we'll talk about narratives or something like that. Absolutely. Thank you, Josh.