The Philip DeFranco Show - MS 1.8 The NCAA Does Not Care About Student Athletes And Here's The Proof...

Episode Date: January 8, 2019

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Sup you beautiful bastards, hope you have a fantastic Tuesday morning. And this morning with this extra news video, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to look at college sports and the NCAA, and we are also going to shine a light on some pretty horrific stuff going on in college athletics. Millions of young Americans imagine themselves playing professional sports, but even if you have the talent and the determination to make it, there's basically just one road. Go to college and play in the NCAA. Since 2006, which was the last year basketball players could declare for the NBA draft out of high school,

only three US-born basketball and football athletes have been drafted to the pros without playing in college. And playing in college for over 460,000 student athletes also means playing for the NCAA. And for those that don't know, the NCAA is a collection of schools across the country that work together to create the framework of rules for competition.

And student athletes have to follow these rules if they wanna play in some of the best divisions in the country. And the NCAA takes their rules very seriously. The NCAA's Division I manual for the 2017-2018 season is 428 pages long. And of those pages, 356 are made up of bylaws. And these bylaws are aimed at two things. Keeping play fair and maintaining, quote, amateurism in college sports.

Under the rules of amateurism, college athletes are not paid. Instead, they get a free education and a chance to prove their talents. And with this, there's been a lot of debate over whether or not that's enough compensation for these athletes, especially considering football and basketball can be huge moneymakers for some bigger universities. The biggest crime in sports is that college football players especially have to risk their pro careers for three years minimum and get paid nothing but their scholarship. Do we need to just pay these kids? I would hope not. And the reason is pay for play devalues education.

I agree. In my opinion. And the reason is when you look at these nefarious transactions that are going on, I guarantee you not one word of education was mentioned. So for the NCAA, I feel like they operate like an organized cartel. I think the way that athletes are being treated are basically indentured servitude because they're not profiting in any way, shape, or form. We not only shouldn't pay college athletes, we shouldn't give them scholarships either. Why would someone earn an athletic scholarship to an academic institution?

But how much money are we talking about when it comes to college sports? Well, just this year alone, the NCAA, which is a tax-free non-profit, declared over $1 billion in total revenue. But while a massive issue, money's not going to be the focus of today's video. And the reason for that is a potential lack of compensation might not actually be the hardest thing student-athletes have to deal with. College athletes are mentally and physically abused by their coaches at an alarming rate, and the NCAA, the largest governing body in college sports, does not protect these student athletes from this abuse. And in fact, the NCAA has gone to great lengths

to avoid protecting student athletes by ignoring their own history, withholding data on abuse, and refusing to investigate and punish colleges and coaches complicit in abuse. But before we get into the pretty terrible things the NCAA is ignoring, I wanna introduce you to one of our writer researchers by the name of Alyssa Schenicki.

And in addition to just being a fantastic member of the team, Alyssa also played NCAA Division III basketball at Emerson College in Boston, Massachusetts. And she also later became an assistant coach and recruiting coordinator at Caltech and NCAA Division III school here in California. And so in addition to the general work on this piece, I also wanted to sit down with Alyssa

to talk about what's going on in college sports from her perspective. You know, I was really lucky to have played and coached alongside some amazing coaches who were supportive and great people, but that's not always the case for a lot of athletes. Abuse in college sports is really a huge problem, and unfortunately it's a problem no one's talking about. But if you do take a look at what's happening to a lot of college athletes, it's hard not to ask the question, why isn't the NCAA doing more? You know, they're the largest governing body in college sports, so why aren't they protecting these student athletes? And if you want to get to that answer, you honestly have to look at the history of the NCAA

and how the organization has changed over the years. So going off of what Alyssa just said, let's actually talk about the history of the NCAA. Because the organization has not always shied away from its responsibility to stick up for athletes. In fact, the NCAA was founded to protect athletes. Between 1900 and 1905, 45 football players died from injuries sustained during play. An article from the Washington Post on October 15th, 1905 stated, Nearly every death may be traced to unnecessary roughness. Picked up unconscious from beneath a mass of other players,

it was generally found that the victim had been kicked in the head or the stomach so as to cause internal injuries or concussion of the brain which sooner or later ended life. And this increase in violence didn't sit well with President Theodore Roosevelt, partially because the president had a personal stake in decreasing violence in football as one of his sons was injured playing football at Harvard.

So at the turn of the 20th century, Roosevelt convened a group of Ivy League presidents and coaches to discuss how the game could be made safer. And from those meetings, the Intercollegiate Athletic Association of the United States was formed. And in 1909, at an annual convention for the Intercollegiate Athletic Association, Chancellor James Roscoe Day of Syracuse University talked about the organization's priorities, saying, with strict regard to the safety of those practicing them. It must be remembered that the sport is not the end. It is incidental to another end far more important. We lose sight of both the purpose and the proportion

when we sacrifice the student to the sport." And one year later, the IAA changed its name to the National Collegiate Athletic Association, or the NCAA for short. But the name isn't the only thing to have changed because the NCAA no longer believes that students must not be sacrificed for sport. And in fact, the organization has admitted

in a court document that it no longer shoulders any legal responsibility to protect students. And when speaking with Alyssa, she said that's a fact that should really worry college athletes. It's kind of crazy to think that this massive organization was basically founded on the sole intent of keeping athletes safe. And then we have the same organization claiming in court just a few years ago, you know what, hey, we actually don't have any legal responsibility to keep athletes safe. That's not actually our job. And as a former student athlete, it's pretty scary to think, you know, if my coach was abusive and my school wanted to protect him, I can't go to the NCAA for help.

And I can't go to the one place that has power to punish my school and my coach. And the Derek Shealy case is really what should open everybody's eyes to what's really going on in the NCAA and college sports. And actually, let's talk about the Shealy case. is really what should open everybody's eyes to what's really going on in the NCAA and college sports. And actually, let's talk about the Sheely case. In 2011, Derek Sheely died from a traumatic brain injury he sustained playing football at NCAA Division III, Frostburg State in Maryland. The trauma to Derek's brain was so great, doctors had asked Derek's parents, Ken and Kristen, if he had been in a car accident. When the doctor learned, no, it wasn't a car accident, the injury actually happened during a football practice, the doctor then asked why Derek wasn't wearing a helmet.

But he actually had been. Now Derek's parents initially believed that their son's death was a freak accident. I mean that's what they had been told by the coaches and school administrators. But seven months after Derek's death, the Sheelys received an anonymous email. The email was written by one of Derek's teammates and it detailed a much different story of their son's death. Now the anonymous teammate would later be identified as Brandon Henderson and Henderson would go on to declare under oath to the validity of the claims

He made in the email Derek's death according to Henderson was a death that could have been prevented and a death at the hands of coaches and trainers Derek's coaches prioritize fierce competition over safety in Frostburg's team policies written by head coach Tom Rogan it stated quote in the rare event You are injured remember the following great champions can distinguish between pain and injury But coaches didn't take steps to prevent injuries. In fact, Henderson wrote that they made violent drills even more violent and cursed and berated players who didn't follow their instructions to the T.

The Frostburg football team often participated in a version of something called the Oklahoma Drill, which is a drill that has been criticized for being so dangerous that many NFL teams don't even use it anymore. And as I mentioned, this was a version of the drill. Coaches at Frostburg altered the drill to become even more dangerous. And the twist was that fullbacks weren't allowed to defend themselves during Frostburg a version of the drill. Coaches at Frostburg altered the drill to become even more dangerous.

And the twist was that fullbacks weren't allowed to defend themselves during Frostburg's version of the drill. Players were told to lead with your head and they were belittled and cursed at if they refused to follow orders. And in fact, the drill was so intense, some players quit the team due to its tendency to cause injuries.

One of Derek's teammates suffered significant cognitive impairment for years after participating in the drill. Additionally, two other Frostburg players sustained concussions from the drill in the weeks before Derek's death. And a question I've seen pop up is, well, why are the players still participating in a drill this dangerous? And that's something that Alyssa touched on when we were talking about what happened at Frostburg. So this version of the Oklahoma drill that Frostburg was doing, honestly, in my opinion, it was just totally over the line.

I mean, of course, football is a violent sport by nature, and that's something that everybody agrees on. But coaches at Frostburg, they were just taking these steps to take this drill to a whole nother level. I mean, these guys didn't care that their players were getting injured. They just kept putting their players in the spot where there was either be tough, man up, or let your coach down. And honestly, if you want to get playing time, you're not going to defy your coach. So it's understandable why the kids on the team either did the drill and got hurt, or they just quit. Derek went to a team trainer not once, not twice, not three times, but four times over the course of three days prior to his death after participating in the drill. On all three of those days, Derek had bled from his forehead and on the last day of practice, he even told one of his coaches

he was suffering from a headache, but according to Henderson, a coach responded to Derek's complaint by yelling, Stop your bitching and moaning and quit acting like a pussy and get back out there, Sheely. Derek complied and minutes later, he collapsed. Reportedly, coaches yelling at Derek again to get up and Henderson said that minutes passed before coaches even walked over to check on him and Derek would ultimately die six days later.

And following her son's passing, Derek's mother, Kristen, filed a lawsuit against the NCAA and Kristen's suit argued that the NCAA had a duty to protect her son. The NCAA disagreed. The organization wrote in a court filing, the NCAA denies that it has a legal duty to protect her son. The NCAA disagreed. The organization wrote in a court filing, the NCAA denies that it has a legal duty to protect student athletes.

To which you may respond with the question, but what about the organization's founding? Wasn't the NCAA basically created to protect athletes? Well, yeah, and in fact, on the same page of that court filing, the organization also wrote, the NCAA admits that a founding purpose was to protect student athletes. And also a massive thing of note with this story

is that the NCAA has actually refused to investigate Derek's death despite multiple requests from the Sheelys. And this was something that Derek's father hit on when speaking with CBS saying, see if a player signs an autograph and gets paid and all of a sudden the NCAA will have 20 people investigating that thing. But player well-being? Then it's only guidelines. Oh, and also it's an important thing to note, Frostberg's head coach, Tom Rogesh, he's still coaching NCAA football. He's an assistant coach at the California University of Pennsylvania. And when speaking with Alyssa about the Shealy case, I asked her, you know, what happened at Frostberg?

Was that a rare case of a coach crossing a line at a Division III school? You know, even as we research this, it's easier to find cases of abuse in big Division I colleges because they're just more high profile in nature. So when allegations come to light, they get more traction. But that definitely doesn't mean it doesn't happen at lower levels. Derek Shealy isn't an outlier.

I've seen coaches cross the line in Division III plenty of times. And unfortunately, I've even had friends play for coaches who are without question verbally and sometimes physically abusive. And unfortunately for the Shealy's, their son played for this kind of abusive coach, one who put the game before the athlete. The NCAA didn't hand out any penalties to Frostburg State in the wake of Derek Shealy's death, and that's partially because the only explicit rules the NCAA has about coaching misconduct deal with recruiting and extra benefit limitations,

meaning the NCAA has zero rules specifically aimed at preventing or punishing abusive coaches in athletic departments, and there are also no NCAA rules prohibiting harmful instructional practices by coaches. Without these rules or fear of punishment, college athletes can suffer mental, physical, and emotional abuse, physical injury, and even death. But that of course brings us to the question, well, how rampant is abuse in college athletics? Well, the NCAA actually answered that question in 2010.

Every few years, the NCAA releases something called the Goals Study. The report is supposed to be a study of the experiences and well-being of current student athletes. Over 20,000 student athletes are asked to fill out their survey detailing their experiences. And in the 2010 report, the NCAA included questions about ethical and abusive leadership. And the questions asked were based on a scale developed by an expert on abusive leadership,

Ohio State University professor Dr. Ben Tepper. What they found was that data from the goals report showed that 16.6% of student athletes considered their coaches high on the scale of abuse. So you're talking about more than one in every six student athletes who took the survey, with no coaches classified as low. Dr. Tepper didn't help conduct the NCAA Goals Report, but he analyzed the NCAA's 2010 findings against his own work in other industries. And what Dr. Tepper found here shocked him. He found that abusive leadership is two to three times more prevalent in college sports than in an orthodox workplace.

Dr. Tepper has talked about his findings with HBO on Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel. These are the results from the NCAA goal study. Now, once again, I'm just placing them right alongside the results from all of my studies. And what you see is just a huge disparity. The mean level of abusive leadership, you are getting scores that are just, they're just crazy high. My first reaction was, I'm not reading the data right. It had to be a mistake. Much higher than anything you'd seen before. We're talking two to three times higher than any other industry. I've had so much experience with industry samples, and the results are always so consistent.

And then we get this result. And it's just off the charts. Also of note here, in 2015 there was another GOALS study that was conducted. The study once again used Tepper's scale, but the NCAA hasn't made finding data about abusive coaches from this study easy at all. We found results from the 2015 goals report available on the NCAA's website in only two forms. One, a 131 slide presentation,

and the other is a finding summary document that's six pages long. And that 131 slide presentation has zero mentions of abusive leadership. And in fact, there are no results from Tepper's abusive leadership scale at all on the slide. And then on that six page summary, there are only two bullet points about abuse.

And they read, scales were included in the goals survey to assess student athlete opinion on the ethical leadership and abuse of supervision by their coaches. And although most student athletes rate their coaches at similarly high levels as expressed in 2010, we see that women and division one student athletes are more likely to be critical of their coaches in these domains. Men's and women's basketball players were the most likely to express concerns about being treated disrespectfully by coaches.

And that's it. The document doesn't go into any further detail about the results from 2010, and the only clear information that abuse still happens is that it happens at high levels. Also, when it comes to NCAA research, they actually have an official Twitter account. It's an account that has published data almost daily since 2012, and it's an account that has never mentioned abusive leadership data. Overall, data from NCAA Goals Report shows us that abusive coaches are a problem. And so it brings up the questions, why do we see coaches treating their players this way, and what is the thought process behind this kind of coaching? And this is also something Alyssa hit on when we were talking. You know, when you start talking about abuse in college sports, I think you naturally start,

you know, thinking of that saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's, you know, when you start talking about abuse in college sports, I think you naturally start, you know, thinking of that saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's, you know, that long held ideal that mental and physical toughness are born from hostile situations. I think a lot of people, when they start thinking about that, too, think of somebody like, you know, legendary Indiana basketball coach Bobby Knight. And you definitely can't deny Knight won a lot at Indiana. But I also think you've got to stop and ask the question question did Knight win all these championships because he's this tough Volatile guy or did he win despite it? I mean Knight wasn't just fiery He was also a pretty smart guy But I think it's probably time we also stop and ask ourselves do college athletes really become the best from harsh practices and coaches who?

Only accept perfection under any cost, but really if we want to answer that I think it's important that we take a step back and we look at the science. So on that note Let's dive into some of the science. Dr. Barbara Fredrickson is a scientist and professor at the University of North Carolina. She's an expert in the study of human emotions and her research has proven that it is true. Negative emotions grab people's attention more than positive emotions. And that may lead to some coaches believing that the best way to get what they want from their players is through negativity or threats. But that's really not the case.

A deeper dive into Dr. Fredrickson's research actually shows that the benefits of positive coaching far outweigh the negative. While negative emotions can grab attention, positive emotions allow for a broader reception of information. Meaning players who are yelled at, yes, they will listen to their coach, but players will actually have a better time remembering information if it's delivered in a more positive way. And there are actually physical benefits to positive coaching as well. Through a combination of eye tracking, brain imaging, and behavioral studies, Dr. Fredrickson's research has shown that an improved mood broadens the perceptual field, meaning a player in a better mood

can physically see better in a game or practice, whereas a player who is verbally or physically abused by a coach can have a narrower depth of vision. According to Dr. Fredrickson, positive emotions also have a broadening effect on the momentary thought-action repertoire. Or to put it more basically, it means that athletes who consistently experience

positive emotions can think more creatively and resiliently under pressure. But athletes who consistently experience negative emotions can be limited in how they respond under similar pressure. And this is something Alyssa hit on while talking to me and also using certain language that made me realize she actually knows more about basketball than me. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door.

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As a basketball player, I imagine how would this have affected me as a player. And my mind goes to a trap situation. When you're stuck in a trap, you have to ask yourself, how do I get out of this situation without turning the ball over? And how do I do it quickly? And if I'm caught in a trap, I want to be able to think creatively under that kind of duress. Because I want to be able to see all my options to get away from pressure. And the more creative I can think, the more options I can have.

Now, if you're a football player, creativity and resiliency under pressure could come into play in a blitz situation. If you're a quarterback, you want to see all your options as quickly as possible. If you're a linebacker, you want to find a way to get to the quarterback. There's just so many ways that expanding creativity and resiliency in a pressure situation can have a positive impact on an athlete, no matter their sport. And so that brings us to a few questions. If abusive coaches are so prevalent in NCAA athletics, why hasn't something been done? Why does it continue? And why don't we hear about abuse in college sports more often? Well, the dynamics of college sports give student-athletes almost no power at a university, and there's also the money behind college sports. But ultimately to understand why something hasn't been done, we need to look at who is positioned to address unethical behavior in college athletic departments.

And so we'll start with the coaches. Coaches are hired and fired based on their wins. And so that's the main motivation for them if they want to stay employed, negotiate new contracts and recruit the best talent. But their desire to win has caused some coaches to cover up scandals and unflattering stories. Which makes sense. A scandal can cause distractions for a team, keep players off the field, and even threaten one's own employment and reputation. When you get to assistant coaches, oftentimes they will report an abuse of head coach because they could be blacklisted

for betraying a head coach's trust. And these coaches also have legitimate authority over their players. They dictate starting lineups, playing time, scholarship allocation. And so an athlete could be fearful of reporting abuse to a member of their team's coaching staff with all those things on the line.

And it's not hard to find cases where coaches try to cover up scandals on their teams. I mean, just this year you had Ohio State, one of the top football programs in the country, and they faced their own internal scandal after allegations of domestic violence came out against assistant coach Zach Smith. And in the wake of that scandal, Ohio State conducted their own investigation where they found head coach Urban Meyer tried to cover up his involvement. On August 1st, Zach Smith's ex-wife Courtney Smith made allegations of abuse against her ex-husband public. Courtney's story included two local police reports from 2015 and 2016 and text messages about the abuse between herself and Urban Meyer's wife, Shelly. Also the same day the story was made public, Meyer spoke with the team's director of operations, Brian Voltellini, about whether the media could get access to his phone.

And then reportedly Meyer and Voltellini discussed how to adjust the settings on the coach's phone so that all text messages older than a year would be deleted. And when Ohio State conducted their own investigation, they found zero text messages on Meyer's phone older than one year. Ohio State wrote in their findings, But it should also be noted that Urban Meyer has denied deleting those text messages. Ohio State ultimately suspended Coach Meyer for three games for mishandling the reports of domestic violence. As far as the NCAA, they have not handed down

any penalties to Ohio State or Coach Meyer. With that said, we move to the next group of people who could address abusive and unethical behavior, athletic directors and university administrators. But unfortunately, we've seen this group be complicit with cover-ups that allow for abuse to continue. And a story that comes to mind here

is one of the most high profile cases of a coach abusing his or her players that was uncovered at Rutgers University in 2013. The abuse by Mike Rice and the Rutgers response to the abuse highlights in part the power dynamics that allow it to continue. And it also shows how schools can prioritize money over player health and safety.

In December of 2012, Rutgers officials learned of abuse allegations against head men's basketball coach, Mike Rice. In response, Rutgers suspended Rice three games without pay, fined him $50,000, and ordered him to take anger management counseling. The school claimed the penalties were for quote, "'Inappropriate behavior,' but no detailed accounts

"'of the behavior were given at that time." Also, a big thing of note here, this was all happening during the same time Rutgers Athletics had received an invitation to join the Big Ten Conference. And for those unfamiliar, joining the Big Ten guaranteed vast exposure and huge television revenue for the university.

So this was a time period where Rutgers would have been especially cautious of attracting negative attention. But then the video became public in April of 2013 after ESPN's Outside the Lines published this practice footage. Outside the Lines has obtained not only the roughly 30 minute video reviewed by Rutgers officials. Get over here you.

But also hundreds of hours of additional footage of Rutgers practices from the two seasons prior to this year. There are shots of Rice heaving balls at players, even at their heads, which you can see better here when the tape is slowed down.. You're a. And after ESPN's report of the thing they already had, Rice was then fired. Now something that was really interesting is that in Rice's contract with Rutgers,

which was divulged after his firing, it noted Rice could specifically be terminated for quote, conduct tending to bring shame or disgrace to the university. Other potential causes for termination include a neglect of duty, willful misconduct, and acts of moral turpitude. But as you may have noticed,

mistreatment of student athletes was not specifically mentioned here. And so Rice was technically fired without cause and his severance package neared half a million dollars. So essentially part of his punishment was to get paid. And also, if you were wondering, there were no penalties or sanctions handed down to Rutgers by the NCAA in the wake of this scandal.

But for a lot of people, Alyssa included, this wasn't really surprising. It's not illogical that a school like Rutgers would want to in the wake of this scandal. But for a lot of people, Alyssa included, this wasn't really surprising. It's not illogical that a school like Rutgers would want to protect somebody like Mike Rice. College football and basketball coaches at larger universities can be among the most powerful people on campus, if not the most powerful person on a campus. In 39 out of 50 states, the highest paid public employee is actually an NCAA coach. And then next up, let's talk about the local media outlets because a lot of them haven't provided much help to student-athletes who have been abused either. Partially because it's important for a local beat reporter to be connected to a college team. A close relationship provides access and information.

These reporters are also writing and producing pieces for partisan fans, and these fans can act incredibly negatively if their favorite coach is caught up in a scandal. This year, massive scandals in college sports have unfolded at Ohio State and the University of Maryland. And both of these were broken by national reporters, not local reporters. At Ohio State, it was the Associated Press that uncovered Urban Meyer discussed deleting text messages. And it was ESPN's Outside the Lines who uncovered this year's biggest coaching abuse scandal, which was at the University of Maryland. As you might remember, because we talked about this specific case, on June 13th, University of Maryland football player Jordan McNair died. This after being hospitalized for extreme exhaustion

and a heat stroke he suffered during a team workout. And after McNair's death, ESPN launched their own investigation and they found that head coach D.J. Durkin had created an abusive and toxic culture based on fear and intimidation. And the stories that came out were extremely concerning. There was extreme verbal abuse, there was targeted harassment.

A former Maryland player also told ESPN that coaches got physical with players and threw weights and other objects at them. One of their punishments was also forcing players to overeat to the point of vomiting. And in fact, in two and a half years, more than 20 players left the Maryland football team. But even though you had current Maryland players

speaking out about the abuses that they had suffered, they all spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were scared of repercussions. And thanks to all of this being exposed, the University of Maryland eventually accepted responsibility for Jordan's death. Head coach DJ Durkin was also fired five months after Jordan McNair's death.

And once again, if you were wondering, as of right now, the NCAA has not punished the University of Maryland or its coaching staff. And it is also unclear if the NCAA is even investigating the incident. Now student athletes like Jordan McNair and Derek Scheele, they don't have a lot of places to turn when they're abused. And obviously from everything that we've found,

the NCAA isn't a place student athletes can really turn either. Like we said earlier, the NCAA claims themselves that they do not have a legal duty to protect student athletes, and their rules are focused on keeping play fair and maintaining amateurism. But that doesn't mean the organization should ignore abuse,

and it's actually for a reason they might resonate with. According to a 2014 study published by the American Psychological Association, NCAA athletes are actually more likely to cheat if their coach is abusive. So if we wanted to play it from their viewpoint, at the end of the day, if the NCAA really wants to create a place for fair play,

it is in their best interest to rid college sports of abusive coaches. But ultimately, we are in the now, and we have the questions, well what can we do about abusive coaches in college sports, and how can we protect student athletes? It's clear the NCAA, the largest governing body in college sports, does not want that responsibility.

Also, there aren't a lot of benefits to colleges and universities self-reporting a coach, and local media outlets have often proven where their loyalties lie. But one solution might be to create a completely independent investigative organization. After colleges find themselves in the midst of a major scandal, it is not uncommon

for an independent investigative team to be brought in. It's a step that removes chances of a potential coverup, and colleges could be willing to participate because once a school is in the midst of a scandal full disclosure and third-party investigations can be a good PR move. Independent investigations can also in part remove the power dynamic that often prevents athletes from coming forward with reports of abuse. But before we can get to a point where an investigative independent group can be formed, the most important thing is for people to know that this is happening. That it is happening more than the stories that pop up in the news would lead you to believe.

And if the NCAA and these colleges that benefit to a massive degree will not do something about it, someone's gotta stand up because things are just not gonna get better on their own. Thank you for watching. My name's Philip DeFranco and I'll see you next time.